Just the FAQS with Lori, Shauna, and Neca

In this episode of In the Den, Jen joins past guests Lori Davis, Shauna Jones, and Neca Allgood to answer a handful of frequently asked questions regarding parenting an LGBTQ child. 

• How can I be sure my child's identity isn't just a phase, and could I cause harm by supporting them if it is?
• How can I help my child come out to extend family when they're ready?
• How do I prepare my child for the difficult questions that people will ask them?
• Why do I feel so sad?
• Why can't they choose an easier path?
• How do I know if I’m providing enough appropriate support for my child while I’m still trying to learn and process through my own generational teachings

Special Guests: Lori Davis

Lori is a mother to four boys. Parenting her third son Zach, who had a gender nonconforming childhood and now identifies as gay, sent her on a journey looking for support and resources. She found Mama Dragons when Zach was a teen.  The support and education there helped her to affirm and celebrate her son. Lori has previously served on the board of Mama Dragons and is currently serving on the PFLAG SLC board.

Special guest: Shauna Jones

Shauna has been an active member of Mama Dragons since 2015. She hates winter, yet still finds herself living in the state of Idaho. Shauna has a husband, three young adult children (one of whom is transgender), a one eyed black lab, and an exuberant golden retriever puppy. Shauna serves on the board of Affirmation: LGBTQ Mormons, Families, and Friends, providing support for parents of queer children and running the youth conference portion of the annual Affirmation International Conference. Shauna loves running and all things rainbow.

Special Guest: Neca Allgood 

Neca Allgood is the mother of a transgender son. She is a former President of Mama Dragons, a current Mama Dragons board member, and a former board member of Affirmation: LGBTQ Mormons, families, and friends. Neca and her husband own a small engineering consulting company. She has a PhD in Molecular Biology. 

Links from the show: 

Family Acceptance Project: https://familyproject.sfsu.edu/

Join Mama Dragons today at www.mamadragons.org  

In the Den is made possible by generous donors like you.

Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today at www.mamadragons.org. 

Transcript

Jen: Hello and welcome. You are listening to In The Den with Mama Dragons. I’m your host, Jen. This podcast was created out of our desire to walk and talk with you through this journey of raising happy, healthy, and productive LGBTQ humans. We are so happy that you’re here with us.

Okay, y’all. We’ve actually made it to episode 7 and I couldn’t be happier with all of the important information we’ve been able to share so far. In several episodes we’ve talked about how parents need to educate themselves without putting that responsibility on their child or on the LGBTQ community. So we wanted to take a little pause at this point and answer some of the most frequently asked questions about some of these early topics to strengthen our own knowledge base on some of the basics. And be aware, these are the types of questions that can be deeply painful for an individual LGBTQ person to hear even though the parents are in the learning process and might need these answers. Lucky for everyone, we have brought back three of our most informed mothers to have a conversation about these questions before we move on and tackle some more essential topics in future episodes. So I would like to welcome back Neca Allgood from episode 1 and also Shauna Jones and Lori Davis from episode 3. Thank you, friends, so much for joining me.

NECA: Thank you.

SHAUNA: Thanks for having us.

LORI: Thanks for having us.

JEN: Shall we get right into it? We’re going to start with one of the absolutely most common questions that we hear and it sounds a little bit like this: How can I be sure my child’s identity isn’t just a phase? And could I possibly cause harm by supporting them now, if it’s just a phase? Neca, why don’t we start with you.

NECA: Thank you. I would actually like to flip that question. What if this is a phase? Won’t it benefit my child to know they are believed and accepted by me, even if later on they choose a different label?

JEN: That’s beautiful. Shauna, what do you have to say when someone asks you that? How do you know it’s not a phase?

SHAUNA: I just had that conversation yesterday with a new mom. And I, like Neca, think the thing that happens is your child knows that you believe them and there is a relationship of trust there that, if it is a phase, they will trust you later down the road. If you assume it’s a phase and it’s not, you’ve lost a critical component of trust in that relationship that is really difficult to rebuild. And a lot of the things that happen at the beginning of any sort of coming out – or even transition if your child is trans – are pretty low risk as far as long-term impacts. But the lack of trust in a relationship is really difficult to repair.

JEN: Thank you. That's so true. Lori, what do you have to say when someone asks you that?

LORI: Well, I’ll come clean in letting you all know that I was the parent. Not only did I say, “This is definitely a phase.” But I think I almost prayed that it was a phase. I was somebody that desperately hoped for that. And I do want to say that I think that the real danger in having that attitude that I initially had, is that your child is coming to you with something that is extremely important to them. A piece of them that is just something that they’ve thought about, something that they’ve agonized about, and they’re coming to you with this piece. And they’re trusting you with it. So if you say, “Oh, this is just a phase, you’re going to grow out of it.” It makes it less likely that they will come to you with other things. This is a really hard thing for them. 

So I kind of like to think about it this way, which is I like to think, “I want them to share all the phases with me, right?” With my own child it was Hello Kitty backpack to great acrylic nails to now the love of hot yoga. I want him to share all the things with me, even the things that are really hard. And if I give him love and acceptance with the hard things, he’s much more likely to come to me and let me know. And then I can be a part of all those things that are in his life. But I do want to give grace and understanding to the fact, I do understand the inclination to want it to not be real or not be true, maybe.

NECA: I also want to spend just a second talking about, “Could I harm them by supporting them?” And it’s important to dive deep into what kind of harm we might be imagining because there is a reality that it can be a cruel world out there for our LGBTQ kids. They will experience rejection. They may be bullied. They may have political action taken against their existence. Those things are hard. But they will be harmed less by those hard things if you are standing by their side.

JEN: It is interesting when we talk about the idea of phase and I’m listening to each of you and I’m thinking how mom’s don’t ask these questions about other things, right? My child is so excited about hockey, but what if I support them and they don’t actually like hockey in the end? Or, what if my child wants to play the drums and I’m too supportive? We support and then if the kid doesn’t like drums, we just move on like Lori said to the next phase. But they know that we’re willing to take that ride, take that walk with them. I love that. 

After they come out to us and we’ve accepted that probably, statistically, not a phase. Statistically, chances are that they are aware of who they are. And there’s a slight chance maybe they’ll pick new labels, and that’s fine. But after that, and they’re kind of settled with their parents, usually at some point they want to tell extended family and family friends. Usually the parents start the family side of things. So then the question we hear over and over again is “How do I help my child come out to our extended family and friends when they’re ready to do that?” Why don’t you start us off with that one, Shauna?

SHAUNA: Yeah. we asked our kiddo, Beckett. We asked him what he wanted us to do. If he wanted help coming out to extended family. And when he said yes, we reached out to family which I loved that he let us help because a lot of times the first reaction is not the best reaction or even the reaction that that person maybe would want to give because it’s a shock. It’s a surprise and so they react in a way that, maybe, they later regret. But by us reaching out, it prevented Beckett from seeing that reaction and gave the person reacting a chance to consider and think about how they really wanted to respond and then they could respond. 

We also, in reaching out, shared the statistics from the Family Acceptance Project and said, “When a family is accepting, when there are accepting behaviors, the physical, mental, emotional outcomes for LGBTQ children is much better than coming from rejecting families. And so you may not understand, and that’s okay. We hope that you’ll try to understand. But even if you don’t understand, we expect that you will show accepting behaviors to Beckett because it’s life saving practices and we expect that of you.” So that’s kind of how we approached it.

JEN: Fantastic. What about you, Neca?

NECA: Shauna said a lot of good things. I would add that it depends some on how old your child is, because the reality is there can be a big power differential between a 7 year old and Grandma and Grandpa, right? And so how much we need to be there intervening, does depend on how old our kid is. Particularly because if those tellings, coming outs, are done face-to-face and things don’t go well, your child may have limited power to step away from the situation to help themselves get calm if things went badly, right? So recognizing that if you choose to do a face-to-face coming out with your child there, be prepared to say, “And now my child and I are going to go on a drive for a while so you have a little time to think about this.”

JEN: That’s awesome. Lori?

LORI: You know, I just want to be really clear that first and foremost, coming out and your child’s story behind that, that’s their story to tell. And I think that can be really hard for parents who may say, “I need to tell Grandma” or “I need to talk to someone else, some extended family member about it.” And your child might be thinking, “But I’m not ready for that yet.” So I want to say first and foremost, that that’s their story to tell. So sometimes you may need to wait for them to want to tell that story or to be ready to tell that story. And that’s hard too. And so after they have decided that the time is right and that they do want to tell their story, I agree. I think you can do, with what Shauna and Neca said, I think you can do a lot towards, “Would you like me to tell them? Would you like me to be there when you tell them? How would you like it to go?” 

And then, I think the very most important thing you can do – and Shauna, you touched on the perfect resource for it – the very most important thing you can do is lead with your own love and acceptance. So what does that look like? “Yes, Zach is gay and he has a boyfriend and we are so happy that they found each other. Did you hear that they’re going to go to Hamilton tomorrow night?” And if you lead with that kind of love and acceptance and show your extended family member and your friends that you’re totally onboard, I think what happens is they really tend to follow your lead. 

They might be confused at first, but they tend to really follow your lead. “Oh, Lori is really onboard with that. Maybe I should get onboard with it too.” So I think that is very important as your child comes out to other people is to really model the behavior that you expect them to show, model that support and acceptance and just kind of treating it like anything else that you do with anybody else in your family, treating that kind of same way. So that’s really important.

JEN: I like so much of what you guys said. Shauna mentioned the idea that the first response isn’t always the real response. My son wanted to tell certain people on his own specifically that he felt deserved to talk to him face-to-face about it. And then other people, he was like, “You can just tell. I don’t even care what they think.” Or whatever. But as we worked through the process, I tried over and over to remind him, just like Shauna said, the first response out of their mouth might not be the real response. That initial – because that first impression sinks in with our kids. And if we can kind of provide a little bit of resilience even in their 20s or 30s like, “Be aware that that first one might not be the real one.” 

So, kind of along that same thread, that same line, we know that in the world, particularly in some locations more than others, the world can be cruel and harsh to our children when they’re out publicly. Or, if they act in ways that are not considered super average and norm, the world can be cruel. And so I didn’t do very well with this one. How do we prepare, how do I prepare my child for the difficult questions that people will inevitably ask them? Lori, why don’t we start with you on this one?

LORI: You know, I think, as a parent it’s your instinct like I’d hurl myself in front of a train if it meant that my kid didn’t have to be hurt. That’s your instinct, right? But the reality is we can’t protect them from pain. We cannot do that. But what we can do is we can help them learn to be resilient so that they can handle it better. I sometimes think with this whole thing, my child had to walk through fire, right? I can’t protect him from walking through that fire. But what I can do is I can say, “I’ll walk through the fire with you. I’m by your side, no matter what. I’m going to walk through that fire with you.” 

And I think having some conversations about these kind of things and about things that can happen and really keeping the door open for them to come and tell you about those hard things because sometimes, if it’s been a really bad day and you’re like, “Well, just buck up, everybody gets negative things.” That really shuts down that communication where they could have a conversation with you and where they could share those hard things and you could really be there for them and show them a lot of empathy. And I do want to say, my child has said to me on several occasions, “It was hard. These parts were really hard. But I was able to get through them because I knew that you and dad loved me. I knew that whatever happened, you and dad had my back.” And that has kind of been a huge affirmation to me that it’s that easy and that hard. So that’s kind of my thoughts on that one.

JEN: That resilience, we know from study after study that the essential nature of anyone having a safe place that they can return and coming home in a literal or figurative sense is really so important for all of us. Shauna, what would you say for this one?

SHAUNA: I think boundaries is an important thing to teach your children just in general. But in particular around these kinds of conversations that they might incur. I think maybe especially for trans people, there are a lot of questions that can be asked about their transition, about things that are inappropriate to ask about. And teaching your child to be able to set boundaries and say, that’s not an appropriate question or I’m not going to answer that. I think those are important skills just in general for us to teach our children. And I agree with what Lori said about if you as a family support your LGBTQ loved one, that goes a long way in buffering the ugliness that they face in the world knowing that their family, that they have a safe place to land, that really does help a lot.

JEN: All right. Neca, what do you have to say about this one?

NECA: I want to share a story from Grayson’s experience in high school.

JEN: Oh, I love a good story.

NECA: So, Grayson went to a fairly small and incredible nerdy charter school in high school. And when I talked to him about the risk of him being bullied in school early on, he said, “Bullying’s just not a problem at my school.” And indeed it wasn’t. So there was a day, a few months after he transitioned, when he walked out to his car and on his car windshield, under the windshield wiper, was a note, an anonymous note. Someone asking a question that included – I’ll just say this right out – a question you should never ask a trans person which is, “Are they going to have THE SURGERY.” Right? And I interpreted that, particularly since it was unsigned, as a hostile question. But because my son knew the kids at his school, he decided this is not a hostile question. This is someone with a legitimate question even though they should not be asking about people if they’re going to have surgery. 

And so he went onto his school's Facebook page, I think it was, and he answered the question and gave people more information about what kind of medical things transgender people might pursue. And talked about it in terms of “Transgender people can go on hormone blockers, and hormones, and they can have top surgeries, and they can have bottom surgeries” and he just responded in a very informational way. And I think that is a thing that we can help our kids see. That if we think it’s a genuine question from a position of good faith, that our kids can know they don’t have to answer anything they don’t want to. But they can use it as an opportunity to educate in a kind way.

JEN: I love that you brought that up. I was just thinking the intention matters so much. But there is a difference in the way people ask. And if somebody genuinely wants to know, they might ask poorly. So when we’re talking about the difficult questions, right, sometimes it’s just a bad question, like it’s worded badly, it’s offensive, but it comes with good intentions. So they have a little bit of a chance to educate and elevate the conversation. And sometimes it’s just mean. People are just trying to be mean. And they don’t have to hold onto that. 

We have a question, this one’s going to be probably a little bit longer and a little bit harder because it covers several different layers. I want to start by thinking about parenthood in general, motherhood, and how we talk about phases or growth, different things. And all of these things are met with joy and a little fear and a little sadness. So, when your child goes to kindergarten, you’re excited. You take pictures. You get them that new backpack. They step on the bus. It’s so exciting and then you go home and cry because you lost your baby and you got a new kindergartner, a big kid now. And when they have no teeth and they get a tooth, it’s so exciting and you’re so happy, but I’ve never met a mom who didn’t miss that little toothless grin or when the teeth start falling out, right, every phase, every new information as our kids grow we love the new stuff but we mourn the passing of time and some of the things. 

So I want to kind of keep that in mind because sometimes when we talk about mourning, we forget that we can both celebrate and mourn simultaneously. So while we’re celebrating our children and we’re so excited to know more about them, we have to sometimes spend a little bit of time discussing why we’re sad. Because every kindergarten mom will meet up for hot chocolate together or whatever on that first day of school and they know that they’re all going to go home and cry and it’s normalized. But when your child comes out to you and you’re a little bit afraid, we generally go home and cry a little. And we don’t know who to talk about it with because we haven’t been informed about this. So, I’m hoping this is not a topic that we should probably discuss with our children, ever. It’s not designed for them to deal with. But it is an issue the parents grapple with and don’t always understand. So I’m hoping you guys will help our peers. If a mom or a parent of any sort comes to you and says, “Why do I feel so sad? Why do I feel so sad?” What would you say to them? Neca, let’s start with you.

NECA: I think it helps to explore, what do you feel sad about? Are you sad because some of the things you had planned for this child’s life are not going to happen? Are you sad because you're worried that their life is going to be hard? Are you sad because you know that there are people who will judge your parenting because you have a queer child? On and on, helping to think about, “Okay, why am I sad?” Then, your mental self-talk can be a little more specific and for me, that helps. I know, for me, there were things that I was sad about that I knew being transgender was going to make my son’s life harder. And I said, “It’s not wrong to be sad that there’s cruelty in the world. I don’t need to shame myself for being sad about that.”

JEN: Absolutely. Lori? What would you say to the mom or the parents that say, “Why am I so sad?”

 LORI: First of all, Jen, I just want to say I’m just so pleased that you are asking this question because I think it’s a dominant theme that comes up over and over and over again as I see new parents come on board, as I talk with new parents. I feel like this is something that comes up over and over and over again. And I just want to be clear. I do not think it’s something that you should beat yourself up about. I think that this is a normal thing. We all have this picture in our head, right, of the way that things are going to be. And I remember for myself, when my son was in fourth grade and he told me he thought the neighbor boy was cute, I’d had a lot of indications leading up to that that he was most likely to be gay. But, I thought, this is it. This is the sign. And I turned it over and over and over in my head. And what I thought was this: Life is hard enough. Do we really have to add that component into life is hard enough? Do we really have to do that? 

And I think that I actually had to go through a grieving process where I grieved the thought of what life was going to be like. I had to grieve that. And I do just really want to throw it out there, there has to be so much grace in that grieving process. Because, what happens throughout that grieving process, is it makes space for the life that you actually get to have. And I just want to say, Zach’s life right now is bigger and better than anything I could’ve imagined for him. Watching him now, oh my goodness. I’m so glad I let go of that picture that I had for him because what he has is so much better. But it’s definitely something I don’t think that you can embrace the new way or the new steps of their life if you don’t go through that little bit of grieving process over what you thought was going to be or the picture that you had in your head. And I love, Jen, that you said this isn’t something you want to do with your child. You don’t want to be like, “I’m so sad, now, that you can’t do x, y, z thing I thought you were going to do with them.” But, you know, Mama Dragons is a space to do it or doing it with a good friend who understands or even a therapist. Going through that grieving process, it’s essential so that you can move forward with the wonderful life that you and your child are going to have.

JEN: I like that idea that grief is also a sign of acceptance. Like I am accepting that this is the reality going forward and I need to adjust to a new reality instead of potentially hanging out in denial that maybe it’s just going to go away and you can just ignore it and not think about it too much. What about you, Shauna?

SHAUNA: I think they’ve said it really well. I think that normalizing that grief is also a component of your child coming out, or any change really. I think for some of us, change is more difficult than others. And it’s a change. So you have to process that change. But, again, avoid processing that change at or on your child. That's an inappropriate place to put that sadness and grief. But it definitely has been part of my journey, letting go of certain things that I thought was going to happen and accepting and embracing things that are. I think life doesn’t often turn out the way that we think it will in just about every way in my case. But learning to find the joy in what is, and letting go of what I thought was going to happen, has been so crucial for me in being able to just enjoy the journey of life.

NECA: Can I come back to one more idea . . .

JEN: Yes, please.

NECA: . . . which is the grief and fear of having your parenting judged by other people.

JEN: That’s big.

NECA: Yes. It is. We want to both be good parents and to be seen as good parents. And it’s important to recognize that those are different things. And I really can’t control how other people judge my parenting. All I can control is my efforts to be a good parent. And the reputational thing of getting seen as being a good parent will fall where it may. But it is important to create some boundaries for yourself if there are people in your life who are constantly attacking your parenting because you support your child, right? And the first step is maybe just to say, “I am trying hard to be a good parent and doing a good job. And I need you to stop critiquing my parenting. And if you don’t, I will step back from that relationship.”

JEN: All of that well-meaning advice, sometimes hurts when you’re investigating and reading and studying and mostly just following your own instinct on how to really love this kid. I know one of my sorrows that I mourned a lot was I knew moving forward that we would lose a lot of community, we would lose a lot of friends. And almost every example you guys gave fits into this so nicely because in the long run, I don’t miss any of that. Those weren’t the people... The people that replaced those relationships are so much healthier and better and supportive for our family. I was mourning losing something when I was actually going to get something better in the long run. Just that anticipatory fear that you don’t know exactly what it’s going to look like. Kind of along that same line, I’m going to start with you again Lori, what do you say when a mom says to you, “That sounds hard. Why can’t they just choose an easier path?”

LORI: Yeah. I think it’s important to realize that oftentimes – and of course, this isn’t a choice for our child – oftentimes it’s the very core of who they are. And so I think asking them that and, boy do I get that thought. Just for myself, I remember my son said, “I’m going to come out before high school.” He said, “I’m going to come out in 9th grade.” And I thought, “Oh, gosh. That seems like a terrible idea. That will be so hard for you in high school. Just wait until you’re done with that. Nobody can bother you about it.” 

But, in reality, he did come out and it turned out to be a really good experience. People were supportive and he never had to question his friends' motives. And so what I thought was the so-called, easier path for him, actually just turned out to not be the easier path for him. And so a few things, one, assuming that you know what the easier path is isn’t always true. And two, just that idea that you’re asking them to do something that is, at the very core of them, not something that is healthy or good for them. So I do understand the inclination and I have definitely been guilty of wanting that. But the easier path isn’t necessarily the better path. It’s not always the better path.

JEN: How about you, Neca? When someone asks you, “Why can’t they just choose an easier path?”

NECA: Another story, and this is not about my transgender son. It’s about one of my other two sons, both of whom are autistic. And this son had done fine in school all through elementary school and then as junior high progressed, school started going more and more difficult. And the challenging thing for this son, I eventually learned, is that he was acting all the time. So all day, every day, at school he was “acting” neurotypical. But that’s not who he was. And that acting all the time was exhausting. And he hit the point where he could not do it anymore. And when he explained it to me that way, that he was acting and he couldn’t act anymore, I understood. No, it's a huge effort to act. He needs to be himself.

JEN: Perfect. Both of you touched on that. We think about the easier way, but being closeted or denying your identity, that’s not necessarily the easier way to live. It’s actually quite difficult and damaging. It’s very unhealthy to move through life like that. What about you, Shauna, “Why can’t they just choose an easier path?”

SHAUNA: Like you just kind of alluded to, I would maybe reflect on the question, “Who is that easier for? An easier path for whom?” Is it easier to live in the closet? Is it easier to try and go through the world in a body that doesn’t fit your soul? Is that really an easier path?” And for most people, it’s not. And that’s why they come out because it becomes impossible or too difficult to continue on the path that they’ve been on. And so I think it would be easier for me as a parent if my child was happy the way that society expected them to be. But really, the easiest and really the easiest path is not always the right path, right, the easiest path is often the path that doesn’t lead us to true happiness. Life comes with challenges and when we meet those challenges, that’s where the real growth and the real joy is.

JEN: Alright. I would actually like to throw a bonus question at each of you because we have a couple of extra minutes. So I’m hoping you’ll take on an extra question. We’ll start with you this time, Lori. Here’s your question. How do I know if I’m providing enough appropriate support for my child while I’m still trying to learn and process through my own generational teachings?

LORI: That’s a great question. And I first want to just say to whatever parent threw that question out there, the fact that you’re thinking about it is proof that you’re probably providing enough support for your child because you are considering what that looks like. So, good job. You’re already doing a great job on that front. I will say that this can be a challenge because you can be very steeped in the culture and the ways that you thought were supposed to be. And then, when your child comes out to you, you have to do some really quick processing if you do not want to do things that are damaging to your child. So my advice on this front is two-fold. 

One, it’s probably okay for a minute to fake it till you make it. If you, in the back of your mind are like, “What are you talking about?” Maybe you keep that to yourself. And to your child you think, “Okay, tell me more about that.” or “I want to hear more about that.” But then you have to turn around and probably process those feelings that you’re having with somebody else, a good friend, a therapist, somebody else from your family. Processing that with them, but not making your child process it with you is the important part. 

And then I would say the other important part is just be present and curious with your child. And if things come up for you as you’re being present and curious for your child, you can take those things and you can cry it out in the shower or in your closet or wherever it is. And have conversations about those things. So, just the mere fact that you’re thinking about it is enough. 

And then just one more thought is, just if it all really goes wrong and you say all the things that maybe in hindsight you look at and you think, “Oh my goodness, I said all that because of my issues. It really doesn’t have anything to do with my child.” Sometimes an apology goes a long way. And it’s fine to say, “Wow, when you told me how you felt about that and I tried to defend that, I’m really sorry that I did that. That was my issue. That had nothing to do with you.” That goes a long way because I don’t think that you necessarily have to get it right the first time around as long as you go back and maybe discuss it with your child and tell them that you wished you would’ve done things differently.

JEN: There’s actually a lot of interesting studies about how being perfect doesn’t make the relationships we think it does. But making mistakes and fixing them is actually how we build relationships. So I love just the idea in the beginning you’re gonna mess up. All of us are going to do this wrong whether it’s about this topic or 35 million other topics that are going to come out of some parenting. We’re going to make some mistakes and that’s where we sort through it and redo. What about you, Shauna? How does this poor parent know?

SHAUNA: I think there is a tendency for parents to want to act like they know what they’re doing at all times. And I think it’s okay to let your child know that you don’t know everything. Our son came out when he was a teenager. And we didn’t know a lot. He knew much more than we did. And although I didn’t want to make him teach me everything there was to know, I think just admitting, “I’m trying to figure this out. How can I be helpful for you while I’m trying to figure this out?” might be a good way to approach it because your child probably knows what they would want or need from you. and having that conversation with them might be helpful. Again, not dumping your trauma onto your child, dumping that out of the circle. But allowing them to be part of that conversation of, “What do you need to feel supported? How can I help you?”

JEN: It’s so crazy how little we ask because we can just ask most of the time, right? I know that I thought I had to have all the answers. And then, once I figured out I didn’t have any answers at all, it was kind of freeing. I could figure it out and it helped a lot. Neca, how would you talk to this parent who’s asking you?”

NECA: One more story.

JEN: I love the stories.

NECA: When my oldest was about 3 or 4, he was struggling with emotional regulation. If he got hurt, got injured, fell down, or something. He would cry and he would have a hard time stopping. And that was something that I was trying to figure out how to help him with. And then, one day, I was in my kitchen, barefoot, pulled a crockpot full of beans out of the fridge, and it slipped out of my hands and I dropped it on my toe. And I started to cry and as I looked up, there was my little son staring at me wide-eyed. And so I cried for a minute and then I took a few deep breaths and I said, “Wow. That hurt. OK. Now I can start to clean up the mess.” And a few days later, the next time my son got hurt, he cried for a minute, and then he took a few deep breaths and calmed himself down. And the point I’m trying to make is that our kids learn more from watching us learn and grow than they will ever learn from our lectures. So I try to not be afraid of learning in front of my kids.

JEN: I could love you guys. Thank you so much. We do have a lot of questions that have been submitted. If anyone listening has a question or a short story or some feedback or a suggestion for us, we would love to hear from you. Our phone number is 562-344-5010. That’s always in the show notes. You’re welcome to call and leave us a message. But, be aware that we might use a portion of that message or that message in an episode unless you specifically ask us not to. Obviously, if you ask us not to, we won’t do that. But we will be taking questions so that we can answer them as the podcast continues. 

I want to thank each of you so much for being willing to help us out in these first seven episodes a couple of times. You guys consistently show up and share your experiences and your wisdom and your vulnerability over and over again. I just love you guys. Thanks so much.

SHAUNA: Thanks, Jen.

LORI: Thanks, Jen. Thanks, guys.

NECA: Thank you.

JEN: Thanks for joining us here IN THE DEN. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with your friends. We’d also love it if you could take a minute to leave a positive rating or review on whatever platform you're listening to us on. Good reviews make us more visible and help us reach more folks who could benefit from listening. But, review or not, we’re glad you’re here. For more information on Mama Dragons and the podcast you can visit our website at mamadragons.org or follow us on Instagram or Facebook. And if you’d like to help Mama Dragons in our mission to support, educate, and empower the parents of LGBTQ children, donate at mamadragons.org or click the donate link in the show notes.