Defining Trans

In this week’s episode of In the Den, Jen visits with special guests Samantha Richardson and Beckett Jones about what it means to be transgender. From fundamental definitions to misconceptions/misinformation surrounding trans issues to what dating might look like as a trans person, this episode is valuable listening for anyone wanting to better understand the trans experience. 

Special Guest: Samantha Richardson

Samantha Richardson is tall, but not as tall as a tree. She likes dinosaurs, monsters, board games, and giant robots. She has won a number of awards for her cartoons and writing, and that number is zero. Her illustrations appear in Shannon Hale’s book Kind of a Big Deal. You can find much of her artwork on Facebook at Samantha Richardson Creator.

Special Guest: Beckett Jones

Beckett Jones is a transgender artist and poet. He is the oldest of three siblings and can often be found outdoors. Beckett’s a conservation worker who has spent his last few summers working in a variety of wilderness areas, including Yellowstone National Park, Mount Rainier National Park, and Palmyra Atoll National Wildlife Refuge (located about 1100 miles South of the Hawaiian Islands). Beckett's currently studying Marine Biology at the University of Hawaii.

Links from the show: 

Samantha’s Art: https://www.facebook.com/people/Samantha-Richardson-Creator/100067032965737/

Beckett’s art: https://www.instagram.com/beckettatticus/ 

More of Beckett’s art: https://www.sfwp.com/quarterly/heartsong?fbclid=IwAR3j-2aqzKn-OtqDgGeBdU-1NVMET8GiSH2jorn9J8Kjhq2J582WNWlUQX0 

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Transcript

JEN: Hello and welcome. You are listening to In The Den with Mama Dragons. I'm your host, Jen. This podcast was created out of our desire to walk and talk with you through this journey of raising happy, healthy, and productive LGBTQ humans. We are so happy that you're here with us.

Today we are going to talk about what it means to be transgender. The word is tossed around often now and not always in accurate ways. Sadly, the entire concept has become very political. So what does it mean to be transgender?  I think it might surprise people both how simple and how nuanced this question actually is.

The transgender people we know and love are often moving through our lives and we don't even know they are transgender. In years past, it was particularly dangerous to be public about such things. And, even now, it isn't always safe. Since I am not transgender, I thought it would be a much better idea to bring in two people with a little more personal experience. And, it helps that they are two of my favorite people in the world and I just like to talk to them.

Today, we have Beckett Jones and Samantha Richardson. And I'm hoping that they"ll each take a couple of minutes to introduce themselves and help us understand who it is that we're listening to today. 

 Let's start with you, Beckett. 

BECKETT: Hi. I'm Beckett. I'm 23. I'm a student in marine biology. I'm a conservation worker from a lot of different places but I think mostly I claim Utah and Idaho.

JEN: Awesome. You have actually lived every place including the middle of the ocean and the mountains of Seattle.

BECKETT: Yeah.

JEN: Beckett is a brave adventurer who's going to save our planet. It's amazing. Perfect. Perfect. Thank you, Beckett. How about you next, Samantha? Do you want to introduce yourself to us?

SAMANTHA: Hi. My name"s Samantha Richardson. I'm 52 years old. I've been pretty much native to Utah my entire life except for a couple of years where I was off doing work for a church. And I like to draw and write and talk to people and bake cookies. And that's kind of what makes me happy.

JEN: Sidenote, Samantha and Beckett are both phenomenal artists. I didn't remember that until Samantha said I like to draw. That's a little bit of an understatement. My Facebook wall has a lot of Samantha"s art that gets shared. I didn't even make that connection about the two of you. 

So, I want to start off our conversation by saying something that I think both Beckett and Samantha will agree with, like a disclaimer of sorts. Most of what we're talking about today will be basic, factual information and definitions. But listening to these two awesome people will really just touch on the tip of what any other transgender people might say. These two represent only themselves and not an entire community. So, for all of us remembering this, Samatha, will you talk to us a minute about your unique trans journey?

SAMANTHA: Yeah. So I guess I kind of realized pretty early in my age. That it's not something that happens to everybody, but for myself, I figured out that I was not what I considered a typical boy. As soon as I figured out there was a difference between myself and my sisters, and I was kind of told “you're going to grow up to be like your Papa and this is what's expected from you in the world.” And it was kind of a difficult pill to swallow. But, at the time, I had it in my mind that that was just what had to be. And so I decided to knuckle down and try to make the best of it. And I feel super fortunate in that in my life, I never really had to face the demon of suicidal ideation or really got horribly and uncontrollably depressed or anxious. But there were levels of that that existed the entire time. And I think it was probably about when I was 44 when things started getting what felt like untenable.

And I actually had a cousin visiting from Sweden who was one of the first persons that I actually talked to about being transgender. And she actually said, "If I come back in five years and you haven't done anything about that, I'm going to be super, super sad.” So I found myself a therapist and started working through some things and then started thinking a lot about what I thought that Heavenly Father wanted from me and realized that I never actually asked him how he felt about the situation. I just had in my mind that, because of what I'd been told my entire life, that I was kind of a horrible person for wanting to be a girl and I figured that other people knew better than me. Because, as a horrible person, how can you even talk to Heavenly Father? But I actually took the question to him and I got a pretty positive response that he would be okay if I decided to try and live my life finding that sense of peace and happiness by following that trail of exploring my gender identity.

And so I came out to my family and they were all heartbreakingly supportive. And my friends were all amazing. And so I decided to transition. And it's been almost six years now that I've been living full time as Samantha and my life has gotten infinitely better and brighter and more wonderful since then. But that's, in a nutshell, that's kind of how I got here.

JEN: I love that. And I love that you touched on the fact that sometimes in the world we hear the discussion about religious people or queer people and those are not two distinct groups. The Venn diagram there has a really, really huge overlap. And I think sometimes people forget that. How about you, Beckett? Do you want to talk to us about your journey so far?

BECKETT: Sure. I think that as a young child, I knew that something was different but I didn't really have the words to describe that and I didn't really think about it too hard as a young child. It really wasn't until I started hitting puberty that my relationship with my body and with my identity really started changing. And I did struggle with suicidal ideation. And I was 14 when I was hospitalized for a few weeks in a behavioral health unit for suicidal ideation. And I really hadn't, I think, put the pieces together as to why I was struggling so hard. And don't think that any of the people in that hospital unit knew why I was struggling either. They tried really hard to help me. I think that everyone was just kind of confused. I remember taking this huge – it was like 160 questions – test that was supposed to help me figure out what was wrong with me. And I kind of breezed through it. And as I got to questions that were like, “Do you wish you were the opposite sex? If you're a boy do you wish you were a girl? If you're a girl do you wish you were a boy?” And I sat on that question for like five minutes. And I had never really put it in those words before. But that question really stopped me. And I remember answering “no” because I thought that they would think I was delusional. I think that I was reading the question and I was seeing it with these questions about do you have reservations, do you have delusions, and I was like, “they're going to think I'm crazy if I say that.”

JEN: you're trying to outsmart the psychological test.

BECKETT: Pretty much. But after that experience, I was also at the time struggling with, I realized that I was attracted to women. And I came out as attracted to women. I didn't really know if I was a lesbian, if I was bisexual, or what was going on with me pretty soon after that. And that gave me, I felt, a lot of freedom in gender nonconformity because I could wear boys clothes and cut my hair really short and people thought I was a butch lesbian. And I thought that was a huge source of comfort in my teenage years where I was still not really out. And a little bit to myself, but definitely not out to other people. That was kind of like a haven for me, the identity of the butch lesbian. I kind of sat on my feelings about gender.

And I think that the first time I was introduced to the idea of a person who's transgender, I think I was 15. And it was at a conference for religious LGBT youth and their families. And I remember seeing that and seeing it applied to other people. And I think that I recognized myself a little bit. I think my parents recognized me in those other people. I think that there were some strangers there that recognized that in me as well. And when we got back to our house after that conference, my dad pulled me aside and said, “You know, I was talking to this parent of this transgender child. Do you think that's you?” And I said to him at this time, “I think probably that's me. But I don't want to talk about it.” And so we didn't talk about it for another, what, another four or five years.

I really don't know why it was so difficult because my parents were so supportive and loving and I knew that they would not reject me. But there was still just fear. It seemed like a much bigger thing to be trans than to just bisexual or gay. It seemed like world-altering. I didn't really know where to start. But I was 18 when my mom was talking about some friend who didn't like her name. I don't remember what the reason was. And she asked me, she"s like, "Do you like your name?” Because she picked it for me, you know. And I said, and I almost lied to her. I almost said “Yes” because I didn't want to hurt her feelings. And then I don't know why. I don't know why I decided to be honest. But I said, “No. I don't really like my name.” She was like, "Why don't you like your name?" I said, “It’s really feminine.” And she stopped and she said, “Do you want a different name?” And I pulled out my phone and opened the Word document of names that I’d been saving for years. And I think that once she picked up on that, it just was kind of the beginning of it.

Once I started using a different name in my house, then it was kind of like when you give a mouse a cookie, you know what I mean? I started using a different name in my house. And I was, like, actually, I want some pronouns to go with that. And then once I'd been doing it with just my family for about, I think it was four or five months, I decided to start using it outside my house. And I think that it was not as world-ending as I thought it was going to be. I think that I had just built up this idea in my head that it was going to be impossible. And it was hard, but it was not impossible.

SAMANTHA: Yeah.

BECKETT: It was not impossible. I think I had just turned 19, I was able to get on HRT and another six months after that, have top surgery which I think was the biggest, that really changed my life, to do the things I love in a body that I wasn't constantly thinking about, just to exist outside myself a little bit. It was just such a positive experience for me.

JEN: I love that both of you have had such supportive families with you on your journey. We know that statistically that’s not the journey everyone takes. And it does make me wonder if that’s part of the reason that you’re both so awesome ‘cause there’s a lot of trauma from being rejected from your family, right?

SAMANTHA: Yeah. So much. And I attribute anything that’s good about me to my folks and my sisters and my brothers.

JEN: Yeah.

SAMANTHA: I think that's so true that seeing people who don't have the privilege that I have in having accepting friends and family and watching how much more difficult, it's incredibly heartbreaking to see how much more difficult it is to deal with life when you don't have that support system.

JEN: Absolutely. Okay. So I want to stop us from the personal stuff and go to the basics. Ground level, first floor. Will one of you start with the very most basic definition – we will get deeper – but the very most basic definition of what it means to be “transgender” or “cisgender”? Beckett, why don't you let us go, lead us off here?

BECKETT: Sure. Transgender, I think at its most basic definition, is not identifying with the gender you were assigned with at birth. And I would say cisgender is, you do identify with the gender that you were assigned at birth.

SAMANTHA: Ding!

JEN: Perfect. Anything to add, Samantha?

SAMANTHA: No. I agree 100% with Beckett on all things.

JEN: That's pretty much it. Straight out of the dictionary. It sounds like, Beckett, you've had to define these terms before. Okay, so, Samantha, I'm going to toss the next one at you. We’re still going for basic definitions, right?

SAMANTHA: Okay.

JEN: What is the difference between sex and gender?

SAMANTHA: So, okay, that can get really complicated, too. 

JEN: We’re in the 101 definition levels.

SAMANTHA: But at its most basic, your gender is the societal role, kind of like whether you identify as male, female or somewhere on that spectrum. And sex is generally considered the biology you were given at birth, which can also be on a spectrum. But there’s a physical part to it and there's a part that's more esoteric that is gender.

JEN: Perfect. Beckett, do you want to add anything for that one?

BECKETT: No. I think that pretty much sums it up.

JEN: Okay. So I'm going to throw one more just so we've got all the definitions. How is this all connected when I add the idea of orientation? Beckett, why don't you lead off on this one?

BECKETT: I think that, historically as a community, sexual orientation and gender have been kind of this really closely intermixed concept. I think that now we kind of separate them a little more. But generally sexual orientation is who you are attracted to. And we use a lot of different words for sexual orientation. But we can kind of generally say that your gender generally is what people use to describe the orientation. As in, I'm this and I'm attracted to this.

JEN: How about you, Samantha, anything to add?

SAMANTHA: I think that's perfect. That's a great definition. It's just to, put it a little more succinctly, I've heard some of my older friends describe “My gender is who I go to bed as and my sexual orientation is who I want to go to bed with.

JEN: That's perfect because we do hear those questions, right? “Why on earth would you want to be a girl, Samantha, if you also want to date girls? It would just be so much easier to be a boy.”

SAMANTHA: It's so weird. Yeah. It would be if I were a boy.

JEN: “It would be if I could make that happen.” 

We have all the basics down, but we’re going to take it a step beyond these dictionary definitions. For each of you, as distinct individuals, what does it mean to you in your actual life as you move through your day – what does it mean when you say you’re transgender? Let's go with you first this time, Samantha.

SAMANTHA: Ideally, and when I'm left to my own devices, it really doesn't mean anything. It just means that basically I'm a human being living in the world. And in the best of situations where being trans enters into it, it just means people are kind of curious about what my backstory is or what it's like to be who I am. But to myself, if I were living in a world where I kept most to myself, like during COVID it really affected my life 0%. But with this ramp up in – this strange bit of anti-trans ideology that's going out there – it means that now I have to be a little more careful and circumspect about who I come out to, which is kind of a process that happens every day. I am shocked, honestly, by people who don't know that I'm transgender in my day-to-day life. People at my work who I thought obviously knew and when they find out, they’re like, “Oh. I had no idea.” And I thought, “Didn’t you hear me talk?” But it's a lot scarier than it was, actually, when I came out five years ago. And moving in the world now, it's a little more difficult. But in a society that accepts me or who is willing to see me for who I am, it really doesn't affect my life that greatly. Until I go onto Twitter or onto Facebook, I can do days without thinking about the fact that I'm transgender.

JEN: What a beautiful answer. How about you, Beckett? What does it mean day-to-day?

BECKETT: I think that several years ago it was day-to-day it was a lot more of a struggle for me. And I think that now I'm at a place, like Samantha was saying, that really I don't think about it. I think especially I've been really lucky to find in the work that I do, a lot of times I'm existing in a space that's almost entirely removed from what people generally consider the world. And I almost feel just genderless, like I'm moving through this space with these people and it's such a unique environment and community that it's not something I think about until I have to do my shot or until I exit that space. But as a young and older teenager, it was a lot more of something that kind of dogged my every step. I felt like I was so worried about what I looked like or who was looking at me. And I was, really just the culture surrounding the news of trans people. It bothered me a lot more. I think Samantha’s right that we’re kind of in this, pendulum is swinging back and we’re getting some pushback. But I think that still, it's less a part of my everyday life now that I've kind of found a place that I can settle a little bit.

SAMANTHA: I just thought of something because of Beckett being a lot younger than me and having that period of transition being so much more immediate. Thinking for myself, I'd like to maybe also, maybe counterbalance the idea that this, talking about post-transition for myself. Talking pre-transition, it consumed almost every waking moment where I just thought, “I do not love who I am. I do not love who I'm forced to be.” And I wanted things to change so badly. And that, not being out to people and – even if I were never given the chance to transition which I'm infinitely grateful that I did, but just being able to tell people who I was took such a weight off my shoulders. And before I was able to do that, those 45 years being trans basically meant every second I was policing my actions trying to not reveal the fact that I was so much more feminine than I let people see. And just being kind of miserable about the idea that I have to perform this masculinity, I have to pretend to be a man for everybody so that they can be happy. It's such a different thing now that I've transitioned and I get to be out and be myself.

JEN: We hear that a lot. Carrying secrets is hard. When I asked each of you, we happened to invite two people who are pretty binary. You guys are both – generally I don't want to give you labels – but one of you is a trans man and one’s a trans woman, like pretty binary. But when you think or if I ask you about the different categories or types – I don't know how to word that – the different types of transgender people, what sort of words and ideas come into your head? Let's start with you on this one, Beckett.

BECKETT: That's a good question. I think that the classification of binary versus nonbinary I think is not so much two boxes as much as it's this big soup. It's definitely really individual. And it's hard to explain sometimes how the effect of a childhood or a lived experience, how that affects the way that you perceive yourself and your gender. Like you said, I'm pretty binary. I also have a lot of experiences that most people attribute to being “Womanhood,” you know what I mean. And finding that counter-balance in myself and in other people, I think that generally though, you can kind of classify trans people, I guess, into “This group generally feels like they can sit at this end of the spectrum, this group is somewhere closer to the center.”

JEN: Perfect description. How about you, Samantha?

SAMANTHA: It's so interesting because I think I very much benefit from the binary in that when I say that I feel like a woman, no one can really say what it means to feel like a woman because I feel like myself. But in the description of myself, Woman as far as I understand it, really centers a lot of my identity. And I think that there are people where, whether male or female, is so far away from how they describe themselves and I think we can get so granular with it, where there's as many gender identities as there are people because everybody has their own relationship with their sex, with their identity, with the social roles they’re asked to do, how comfortable they are with this aspect of femininity, how comfortable they are with this masculinity. And there’s an entire galaxy of people and I think the majority of people are generally very comfortable with their “This aspect of traditional masculinity appeals to me.” And I think that that’s writ more large with trans people where they are finding a certain freedom to pick and choose and find whatever they feel comfortable. And that doesn't necessarily have to fall within that spectrum at all. and it can change from day to day, from minute to minute, from second to second. But it's just the panoply of beautiful expressions of gender that is just so dense and it's so rich. And I just happen to fall in a part where most of the general things that are considered feminine, the way I present, the things that interest me, all kind of sit in the feminine camp. And that makes me very happy. But to acknowledge that there are people that that doesn't even begin to enter into their sphere of identity, I think is really important.

JEN: I appreciate that. There’s some words that people use, I like to assume that it's always with the best of intentions, that aren't really accurate or maybe aren't considered particularly kind by the trans community. Can each of you address that kind of language and what kind of language feels softer or more accurate to you? Beckett, I think it's your turn.

BECKETT: Sure. I think that when you’re thinking about language to use when you’re describing trans people, I think the kindest thing to do is, one, to take a minute and think about that language in the context that you're using it. The language and what's considered kind or unkind is always evolving right? [inaudible] moves forward as we get ideas. And also, to know that trans people, again, everyone has different words that they use, different words that they feel comfortable with. But I think that as our language changes, especially between generations and between cultures and communities, it's important to just keep that element of just empathy and compassion and thinking about that the person that you're talking about is real and is in the room with you. You may not know that they’re there, but they are listening. I think that a lot of people don't realize that when they're talking about trans people, whether it's on social media or in real life, someone that you know is trans. And maybe they haven’t told you, but someone is listening. And just keep that in mind when choosing your words.

JEN: How about you, Samantha? Any thoughts about that or even specific terms or words to avoid or head toward?

SAMANTHA: It's kind of difficult because in the community that I participate in there is a great big -- for myself, I love the word queer. It was used as a weapon against me so much as a kid. But I just like how it kind of points towards something that's strange or odd or weird. And I love it. But there are people I know who that is a hurtful language or a hurtful word to use. And I know that there are certain trans people who like the word Transexual and that's a word for me that I prefer Transgender because sex is such a weird thing for me anyway. I'm not sure exactly what my relationship with that is. But it just brings up different connotations. And I think one of the things that is easy that you can internalize if you're talking, if you remember that Trans is an adjective and that someone isn't “transgendered.” It's not something that's put upon them. “There’s a person who’s trans” like “There’s a person who’s blonde” or “There's a person who's tall” or “There's a person who is Swedish.” If you can remember that that's just an aspect of that person, then that's, I think, a good thing rather than using the term “transgendered.” I think that one of the best things that anyone can do is to be open to correction. For myself, even as a person who identifies as transgender, there are times when I'll use a phrase and I'll have someone tell me either kindly, “Oh, that's not something that I like to apply to myself” or even angrily, I know if i just, “Oh that's not the experience." And if I can remember that that's not a word that they want applied to themself. So if we can be open to correction without being defensive or worrying about what our intent was, but rather think about the effect we have on other people. I think that that's a really good way to be kind about our language is just to ask questions and to take input and not personalize it as an attack on you, but just how we should address other people.

JEN: I like that particularly in the context of parents. When we feel like we’re trying so hard and then someone tells us we're doing it wrong to just take a breath and be like, “Thanks so much for letting me know. I didn't know. That's outside of my experience.” I appreciate that because the harder you're trying sometimes the more defensive we feel when people correct us. 

I'm going to go back to you, Samantha, on this one. and I want to talk about the idea of Gatekeeping a little bit. Not necessarily that word, but the idea. What sort of things are required of an individual? What are the check-boxes that somebody has to fill out in order to officially be transgender? How do you qualify?

SAMANTHA: There's a lot of different thoughts on that. But I think Beckett's earlier definition of just like whatever gender you're assigned at birth, if it doesn't match up in your head, that's essentially it. If you don't feel comfortable being treated as a woman when you were assigned that as a child, then more than likely, you're transgender. There are many gender nonconforming people who wouldn't take that necessarily as being under the trans umbrella. But I think if you just take it at the basic definition, then if you fit that definition, then that's all you really need. Okay. So, suppose, I myself, I love dinosaurs. I love monsters. I love fantasy books. I love Star Wars. Those are all things that are kind of -- well when I was growing up – were considered very masculine. But that didn't change the fact that I was trans. Just because my interests lied in a spectrum that were considered generally masculine, it didn't change what my identity was. And I think to have a list of check boxes to say, “This makes you trans.” It's a difficult thing to box in because it's kind of nebulous. But I think it's something that you might question about yourself and you can explore that. Or if someone you know or love is questioning about themself, give them space to explore that and find out the relationship with the gender they were assigned, as opposed to the gender they identified as. That's probably the best way to handle that.

JEN: How about you, Beckett? Who's in the club? How"s not in the club?

BECKETT: Generally, how I like to think about it is I think a lot of people, when they're trying to medicalize or to box trans experience, they talk a lot about dysphoria. I think dysphoria is definitely something that's a big part of the trans experience. That's the idea that there's internal discomfort or upset at your body or your social role and the way that you perceive yourself and those two things not really matching up. I like to think more about euphoria when I'm thinking about trans experience in that, I think it's more relevant to me when talking about what is the shared experience of trans people or what makes someone trans. The joy or the euphoria of being able to live your life authentically, like being able to experience your body and your societal role in the way that you choose to experience that. And I think rather than the discomfort of being in the wrong place, I think generally, you're in the club if you can feel the joy of moving to the right place.

SAMANTHA: I'm stealing the answer, Beckett. That is lovely.

JEN: Samantha’s taking notes. There are a lot of misconceptions about trans people. But in addition to general misconceptions and basic misunderstandings, I think right now there's a lot of intentional misinformation being spread through social media and through political channels. And I don't want to create a painful situation for either of you. But if it isn't too painful to talk about, what are some of the misconceptions that you hear that are out in the world that you’d just like to clear up a little bit? And there's probably several. So maybe do one at a time and maybe alternate back and forth or whatever. Samantha, do you have any that you think of right off the top of your head?

SAMANTHA: One thing that bothers me is hearing people who claim that, because I'm gender nonconforming, that I grew up as a tomboy or as a very feminine boy that now I'd be rushed into being transgender. People would force it on me. And I just feel like that is so frustrating because I personally know a couple of people who are like, “My child likes to wear dresses or has even expressed that ‘I don't know if I'm a boy.’ And so are they trans?” And all I can say is give them space to explore who they are and find out who they are. But what you like to do, how you spend your life, that doesn't make you transgender. Boys can play with dolls and girls can play football or whatever it is that's manly. None of those things make a person transgender and it won't push people to medicalize them as transgender. It's not the best practice that's out there. So this idea that trans people are trying to destroy feminine boys and masculine girls, it's just so frustrating because that's not at all what I think anyone is trying to do with any lick of common sense.

JEN: What about you, Beckett? What misconceptions would you like to clear up?

BECKETT: Yeah. I think right now, a big one is just the fear that people have about trans identity in children. And the idea that kids are going to make these choices that they can't unmake. And I think that right now, there's a lot of legislation being pushed about when kids should be allowed to access affirmative care in terms of gender. And I think that people have crazy ideas about what transition looks like for a six-year-old and what transition looks like for a twelve-year-old or a fourteen-year-old. The majority of that is going to just be clothes and a name and the way that they are walking through the world. No one is giving hormones to a six-year-old. A six-year-old doesn't need hormones. A twelve-year-old doesn't even really need hormones. A twelve-year-old might want puberty blockers, which they can go off of if they decide they do want to experience the puberty that the sex they have a birth. But I think it's definitely, there's just this idea in people’s heads that these children and teenagers are altering their bodies in ways that they can never recover from. And that's just not true. And it's also not true that I think that people have this idea that these hormones and this care is easy to access. It's not. It's not. It's difficult to access. There's lots of checks and balances in place, even as an adult. I was 19 when I got my first testosterone shot. It was hard. I had to go through a lot of rigorous self-examination and a lot of informed consent with my doctor before they could prescribe that. And I think that understanding that affirmative care for trans children and teens is not what you think that it is. You can relax a little bit.

JEN: We actually are going to do a whole episode on transitioning and what transitioning means. So I'm happy that you brought that up and kind of highlighted that because that's one of my misconceptions where I get a little bit frustrated. So we're going to do a whole episode on that one. Are there other misconceptions that you think of, Samantha, while we're talking about this?

SAMANTHA: One thing that I've heard talking to someone recently on my Facebook was just the idea of desistance, or people who say that I think the last figure I heard cited was I think 80 to 90% of kids who are transgender, if they're just forced to comply with their gender roles, they desist after a while.

JEN: That actually comes from a study that's being very widely misinterpreted and weaponized right now. So I'm happy that you're talking about it.

SAMANTHA: The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual 4 was kind of putting all of these kids who are gender-nonconforming – kind of what I talked about before – they were all under this umbrella of trans. And, of course, exploring your gender, exploring your identity is such a vital part of being a kid. But that same thought of if I express something that's not conforming with my gender, then they're going to rush to say that I'm trans. But the flip side of that coin, they consider those people trans and then say, “Oh but they desisted!” when it's just someone actually exploring their gender. The idea that if there's consistency, insistency, and persistency, those are the things that point to someone as being trans. And people who fall under that category, I think that there's currently a 2.5% desistant rate of people who are viewed as being persistent, and insistent, and consistent to their gender identity. And that other number is just, as you said, it's a misunderstood and weaponized statistic that is just so frustrating to hear because it hurts trans kids because it's like, "Oh, you're just going to outgrow this.” And I spent 45 years being really sad with my body.

JEN: That's way too long, Samantha. That's too long.

SAMANTHA: It is.

JEN: That’s too long. Any more, Beckett, that you want to highlight?

BECKETT: I think the idea that trans identity is somehow linked to sex, that it's a sexual behavior, that it's a predatory behavior. I think part of what you were talking about earlier about people who say, “Why did you transition because if you're attracted to this gender it would be so much easier for you to just stay what you were.” And I think that idea that transgender identity is like a tool for sex, it's a really wild misconception. I think I understand where it comes from. It comes from this idea that gender nonconformity is predatory and dangerous. But I think that it's a really, especially dangerous misconception. I think that something to understand about trans identity is that it is about that person, nobody else. Do you know what I mean? It's not about who they're attracted to. It's not about who they want to be attracted to them. It's just about themselves and how they feel.

JEN: In my experience, nobody is transgender because that was the easy path. They didn't decide, “You know what's going to get me a lot of sex, being transgender.” That's not the easiest path if that's your goal. And statistically, like you mentioned, the word “Groomer” gets thrown around a lot or the word “Pedophile” gets thrown around a lot. Statistically, trans gender people are at the bottom of the heap. That's your least likely crowd to be acting out on those sorts of grooming and pedophilia behaviors. 

So, one reason that I hear often, primarily on social media, is that people seem to be genuinely afraid that transgender people are destroying gender, that if the transgender people have their way, there will be no such thing as gender or that they're taking away the value of being cisgender. Often, you probably hear this as a trans woman, Samantha, more often. “Don't try to take away from my womanhood with your transgender identity.” So I'm going to have you start, Samantha, with this one because I do think it targets trans women more. But what do you think when people say these sorts of things? Do you have insights on this?

SAMANTHA: It's basically a reheating of that argument, homosexual marriages are diminishing heterosexual marriages. And I don't know how to explain to someone that, “No. You still get to be you.” It's like saying “Blonde women are destroying the value of brunette women.” I mean, it's so frustrating to think that personally, I'm out to destroy anything, except for the chocolate cake I'm going to eat after this. I'm going to destroy the heck out of that. But I mean, I have four amazing, strong sisters. And their womanhood is a very much defining factor of who they are. And, one, to think that if your womanhood is so fragile that me being a trans woman can destroy that, there's something you need to examine that has a lot more to do with you than it does with me. And, secondly, the numbers are kind of coming up, I think, as society becomes more accepting. We’ll see how the next couple of years go. But more people are feeling comfortable saying, “Hey, I want to explore my gender identity. I want to find out who I am.” But still we are such an outlier when it comes to the world at large. There's so many cisgender people and it's frustrating to see that. I can actually kind of understand that fear a little bit. But I think if you can examine it and see it for what it is, and just look and see that the status quo is being shaken up a little bit. And something that has reigned supreme, something that we have had privilege for such a long time, we have to examine it. I think that can be difficult for anyone. And so I have some sympathy for people who espouse that position. But at the same time, it just seems silly to think that this thing that has existed for so long and exists for so many people is going to be destroyed because this small group of outliers is kind of saying, “Hey I want to examine my identity with my gender and I'm going to express it in a different way.” And I don't know. I wish I were more eloquent or had better things to say. But I think it's silly.

JEN: I've known you for six-ish years now. And my womanhood is fully intact. I'd like to declare.

SAMANTHA: I'm doing my job wrong then. By now you should be having a silk mustache and shooting deer.

JEN: What about you, Beckett? Do you have any insight on this idea of the destruction of gender?

BECKETT: Yeah. I had this conversation with someone who straight up said these things. and the thing that I said to them was, “Does it not empower you to believe more fully in your identity as a cis woman or man to know that trans people exist. To know that that is not something that was put upon you but something that you intrinsically are, that you determined for yourself. I'm this. I can examine what I was given at birth and it's true. Is that not more powerful to you than just something that someone stuck on your head when you came into the world? Your own gender and your relationship with gender, if you're a cis person should not be weakened by the existence of trans people. It should be strengthened because you can also have that relationship with yourself. You can also ask yourself those questions. And if you come out the other side and say, No, this is really who I am, then that's really who you are. And isn't that amazing? Isn't that special to be able to say that this is intrinsically my personhood and I determine that for myself through my own questions and rigor and not just because someone else told me that's what I should be.”

JEN: Beckett, you're wise. You're a wise one for one so young.

BECKETT: Thank you.

JEN: So I want to address this. In the time we're recording this, we're right in the middle of the legislative sessions in the states and there's a lot of dangerous and hurtful bills being proposed and some that are even passing that actually diminishing the human rights of people who happen to be transgender or nonbinary or any way gender expansive. And I'm hoping that each of you, speaking as an individual trans person, can talk to the emotional impact that these legislative sessions have on you. Beckett, let's go with you first?

BECKETT: Yeah. It's disheartening. It’s, um, it makes me, sorry, I’m going to get emotional. It makes me really sad, for trans kids especially. I think that growing up trans, being in middle school being trans, being in high school being trans, is already so hard. And it just feels like it's just kicking someone. You know what I mean? These kids, you're not helping them. And if you really wanted to help them, then you would help them. Do you know what I mean? Making rules about who should be able to talk about gender in school, who should be able to talk about gender affirmative care, it just feels like it's become this scapegoat for this fear that people have that the world is changing, and they're taking it out on these kids under the guise of trying to protect them. And I think that if you really are worried about trans kids, you're worried about their safety, about their lives, and how they're going to move forward. The problem is not that they’re trans. The problem and the danger is how the world is going to treat them because they're trans. It makes me feel like the world is getting a little smaller. Do you know what I mean? I think that makes me almost want to disengage with all of it, you know, take a step back. I know right now it feels just sort of like there's this crush of anti-trans sentiment. And I know that the pendulum, it swings back and forth always. It's going to swing back the other direction. But right now, I feel sad for trans kids.

JEN: I appreciate that and the emotion is 100% shared. How about you Samantha? How do these legislative sessions affect you?

SAMANTHA: Sorry. Now I'm going to start getting all weepy, too. I live in Utah and I went to the capitol to hear the hearing on House Bill 132, and on State Bill 116. And, sorry, the idea that the terms that they use. They couch it in terms of protecting children. And they're protecting a handful of cis kids who have a possibility of being misdiagnosed, by punishing and hurting hundreds of kids who are going to have to go through the very thing that they're trying to protect cis children from. I think about my own experience with puberty and just how horrific it was to have a body that was becoming something that I didn't recognize and didn't want. And the joy that I felt talking to trans kids when I was part of a program of working with trans kids and LGBTQ kids who are religious. And just talking to all these kids who had a chance to, “I'm going to be able to get on hormones soon.” Or “I've talked to my family and all these things are going to be happening. I'm going to be able to live as who I really want to be.” And I was just so happy for them. And to think that because two or three people who are cisgender had a very poor experience with the trans process, these kids would not – they're not trying to pull back or even say, “Let's give it a little bit more time. Let's give it a little more thought.” They're just like, “No. We're going to stop this entirely!” And there's going to be a generation of trans children who had this bright star of promise held out to them that suddenly they won't have access to. And just the devastation this is going to cause so many kids. I've already heard in circles around me about kids who have been hospitalized because they've been anxious or suicidal. And kids who have actually lost their lives because of these bills. And I don't want to consider myself an angry person. But it's infuriating to see just the casual unconcerned prejudice that's being used to weaponize trans experience for political clout or for marshalling the masses and taking something that's misunderstood and marginalized in the first place and saying “This is what we have to destroy and this is what will save the world,” when there's so much else we need to look to as a people, as a species, as biological creatures that live on this earth that we're kind of destroying. It's such a drop in the bucket. And to see these kids whose hopes and dreams are just kind of smashed and quashed. It feels so disingenuous and cynical and it's heartbreaking.

JEN: I don't know how legislators can hear testimonies of individuals like yourselves – and I hear them being shared – and not be completely moved by that and open to the idea that maybe they need to look a little bit deeper. 

I would like to pivot to the exact opposite direction of tears. We're going to do a big emotional jump in the exact opposite direction and you can say, “No thanks” and we can delete it out. But I would like to ask because we have parents, right – parents are scared of everything. What does it look like to date as a transgender person? How is dating kind of gone for you? I'm going to start with you, Beckett. What does dating look like? And you're younger.

BECKETT: Yeah. I am. You know, it complicates things somewhat. It's not as bad as everyone sometimes makes it out to be. It can be. I generally tend to date inside at least the queer community if not just the trans community, which I think has definitely made my experience more positive. I think that there is, I'm not saying that transphobia doesn't exist inside LGBT spaces. But it's definitely nice to, I feel like that pool is safer, generally. I think that my experience has been like it's not really a factor. Do you know what I mean? It's not even something that we talked about. It's just this part of who I am. And it doesn't really need further addressing than that. But I think that I feel for trans people who are dating, have no choice but to date in pools of straight or cis people because that's a barrier sometimes that you have to jump. There's a lot to explain. I think the biggest question for me, generally, is when do I tell people? Is this a first date thing? Is this something that I have in my dating app profile? Is this something that I wait a little bit before I tell? And I think that for me, generally, it's something that I like to just put upfront just because I don't want to sit on it and I don't want to waste time. But I think that there can be a lot of fear and uncertainty in terms of how to talk to potential partners about trans identity.

JEN: I recently was in a conversation with an individual who is trans who was talking about dating and how the pool of eligible people to date is really small. But it becomes a very high-quality pool. Because people who are open to that tend to have other ideas about inclusion and compassion and those sorts of things. So it's a little pool. But it's a pool of really great people that you can choose from.

BECKETT: I would agree with that.

JEN: I loved that idea of the little pond with quality fish. What about you, Samantha?

SAMANTHA: Oh, dating pool. I don't even know how to swim. It's so funny. You might as well ask me, “How has trans affected your ability to go to the moon?” I have dated precisely one person my entire life and I haven't actually been on a date-date for like 25 years. I don't know how much of that has to do with a lifetime of repressing who I am and just being worried and afraid. And the part of me where it's – I love people. I have so many friend who I adore. And I think I'm a romantic person at heart. And I really enjoyed dating the young lady I was dating clear back when I was 25. But dating doesn't even really get on my radar much lately. And I'm sorry it's not a very good answer. But I've seen my friends around me and see people as they transition as they find out more about themselves, it's so much easier for them to share with other people and have deep and meaningful relationships with other people and to feel like they're connecting with people on a deeper level because they're getting their whole self. And I've seen it do wonders for people’s dating. But I just don't know how to date.

JEN: Are you interested in dating or not really?

SAMANTHA: I love the idea of a romantic partner. But the amount of work it would take me to get to where it would be something that is viable is just “That's exhausting.”

JEN: That's what I say if I ever lose my husband. “It just doesn't seem worth it to go through all that.”

SAMANTHA: I'm a 52-year-old trans woman with largely conservative – I don't drink. I don't party. I'm very quiet. And I'm a part of the majority religion in the state where I live. And looking for someone who is age-appropriate, and interested in me, and still wants to share those values with me, it's like I'm not interested in going to a bar. I don't really want to go to a concert. Can we just sit here and read books to each other? Talk about a miniscule dating pool.

JEN: I think that's really awesome though because it does kind of illustrate that there's a wide spectrum, because it comes up a lot for parents, right? How will my trans kid date? And your trans kid might not want to date. 

SAMANTHA: Yes.

JEN: So I like that you kind of covered that department. OK. So I have a question for you that's going to sound blunt. We're going for blunt, even more blunt than dating. But I want to be real, right? And we have parents who are listening who are just starting to enter this world with their child. I want to know how difficult it is to move through life as a transgender person? What has been the most difficult challenge in all of this for you? I think it's you first, Samantha, this time?

SAMANTHA: I guess I came to moving about in society in the 80"s. And it wasn't a super good time for people who were gender nonconforming or for people who were queer. And largely it was a lot of me policing my presentation. I think the last thing I had to eliminate to keep myself from being beaten up for being overly feminine was when I was in seventh grade, someone knocked my books out of my hands telling me I carried my books like a girl. And I'm like, “Oh, OK. So I have to watch men and see how they carry their books, because I am obviously a Manly Man.”

JEN: Now I want to know how girls carry their books.

SAMANTHA: I would carry my books hugged to my chest instead of with my backpack slung masculinely over one shoulder with my books in one arm with my massive biceps flexing in the wind.

JEN: You didn't look like you were going hunting?

SAMANTHA: I didn't. I looked like I was trying to carry this baby over the Russian borders. And it was super difficult. I felt like I couldn't tell anybody who I was and I had all these people who told me and reassured me that they loved me and cared for me. And I thought, “Yeah. You do. You love who you think I am. But if you knew who I was, you would hate me.” Because that's what I had been taught all my entire life, that the type of person I was was an abomination, the type of person that I was was a pervert, someone who couldn't be trusted around children. I had so many babysitting jobs where I just thought, if someone finds out that I'm trans, they will kill me. And I allowed that to kind of shape my life. So I became this very performative person growing up and now when I finally found a way to free myself of a lot of that – there's a lot that I'm still learning about the way that I present myself – I often compare it to learning to speak a language but then being corrected on that until your language changes totally and you speak a certain way and then going back to that native language and just relearning all those different ways of saying words and being. And as a trans person now, I feel like I have somewhat of a passing privilege which is its own thing – which means that most people at first blush take me as a plain, tall woman and that's kind of it. And so I don't get a lot of flack. And mostly when I speak, that's when people will go, “Oh there's something different about that person.” Because my voice was masculinized by hormones when I was a little kid. But being trans now for me, I have this amazing thing that everybody that I cared about and I loved and was close to me, carried through with me through that transition. We all transitioned together and so I have this amazing support group and amazing group of people who I can turn to at any time and who have held me up so many times when I needed it. That being a trans person who is out and having those types of people in your life is such an amazing, wonderful experience. It's like being a [inaudible] and just seeing it open one day. And all the sudden you're out of this cell and in this African savanna and I've gotten too big to ever go back into that cell. And it's been amazing even with all the nonsense that's going on with the government and things like that. I think that being trans can be a wonderful experience if other people allow it to be.

JEN: I love the picture of Samantha running through the Savanna.

SAMANTHA: Well, Savanna could run through Samantha, but it would be less pleasant.

JEN: Dramatically so, yes. But I do love that vision because I think we find ourselves caged in lots of different ways. But what a unique opportunity to experience the uncaging of yourself and be able to compare those things. I think that's really cool. What about you? What's the hard part, Beckett? What's been the challenge?

BECKETT: I think the hardest part for me usually is documents. The government, in my business about my existence and my life – that's an exaggeration – but just like I think until I was able to get my legal name and gender change, it was an element of huge stress in my life. Whenever I would use a credit card or whenever I had to show someone my ID, whenever I had to go to the doctor and have them read my name in the waiting room. Those things really add up, and I experience it less now that I have that official name change. But it's not totally gone. Sometimes, as soon as I have to pull out old school transcripts or things that I can't change and that, I think, just the nitty gritty of being an adult person who has a job and going to school and just documentation sometimes so difficult especially when it feels like there's a lot of hoops that they make people jump through in terms of getting documents changed. I know my own experience in changing my name was hard just because there was no information and I was really lucky I had people in my life who had already done it that could coach me. But if I hadn't had those people, it would've been rough. When I was voting in the 2020 election, I went to the polls and this was just a month before I changed my name and they almost didn't let me vote because the woman at the booth did not believe that that was my real name.

JEN: The person looking at her and the person on that ID just weren't a match.

BECKETT: Yes. It was an up-to-date ID photo. It was just the name that she would not accept. She was like, “This is your name?” I was like, “Yeah.” She"s like, she almost didn't let me vote. And I think that those kinds of experiences like when I got my passport. That was another experience because I had to go to the state legislature to get it to passed through because the worker that I got was unpleasant. You know what I mean. I think that it's definitely, documentation is rough.

JEN: I'm struck by how each of you mentioned at different times during this whole conversation that you often just kind of forget about being trans and move through life. And then some of the things that are the most difficult seem to be the things that remind you and force you to acknowledge it and think about it again.

BECKETT: Yes.

JEN: Where, without these weird hoops and stuff, you could just kind of live and it wouldn't be the issue that it is. And also, I'm impressed to acknowledge that the ID thing is significant. It's a risk. It's a physical danger to have ID that doesn't match. And there's several states right now that are attempting to make it illegal to change identification like that for people. And that's actually very dangerous. So I would like to testify that when you guys changed your legal names and driver’s licenses – or I don't even know if you've changed your birth certificates – but if you did, it didn't affect me. I was fine.

SAMANTHA: There was no disturbance in the force?

JEN: No. It benefitted you and it didn't hurt me. And that's kind of how I think most laws should be based.

SAMANTHA: I think so too.

JEN: I think just like your womanhood, Samantha doesn't take away from my womanhood, your driver's license also did not affect me at all. 

If you could get everyone in the world to understand one thing about gender or being transgender. That one thing that you could just tap into everybody's mind so you could quit explaining it over and over and over again, what would that thing be? Beckett, why don't you go first?

BECKETT: I'm thinking of a quote. I don't remember who it's by and I'm going to paraphrase. The quote is “Gender is a shell game. If you lift up the shell who's under it.” I think that understanding that gender is not real, it's something that we made up. It's something that humans invented to describe the way we fill roles in society. And that when you're thinking about gender and thinking about gender nonconformity, just remembering that in fact, people are getting hurt but not by gender nonconforming. Gender nonconformity is ancient. It's as old as gender. And remember that it's existed for all this time and it's going to continue to exist and it's not hurting. That's the best.

JEN: I like that. But what about you, Samantha? What do you wish people understood about gender?

SAMANTHA: There's so many things. But I think at this moment the thing that's closest to my heart is that you can't legislate trans people out of existence, because as long as people keep having kids you're going to get transgender people. And you can either help to make trans kids happy and healthy and feel safe. Or you can help to make kids feel miserable and isolated and afraid. You cannot make a trans kid cis. And you cannot make a cis kid trans. We're going to exist and the only option that people have is how healthy and how bright and how wonderful they can make that existence.

JEN: Everything you guys are saying is making me so happy. I was thinking, Beckett, about how you were talking about how gender is a social construct. And I see sometimes the conversation where, “If gender"s a social construct, then why can't you just conform.” And when you say that “gender is not real,” I heard an analogy that might help some of our parents because it helped me to acknowledge that money is also a social construct. It's not real. It's not based on anything. It's a system that we've developed to move through the world and interact in the world. But it's made up. We made up money. The dollar, the little bills, it's made up. We created it, similar to race. These things are very much created and made up and not real. And then, simultaneously, if you try to exist in the world without money, it's going to be really hard because it's so ingrained in the system. So money is a social construct. We developed it to be able to interact with each other. But it's also very, very real in the fact that it does exist and it is the system that society has developed. So when we talk about gender in that way, that it's not real, that it's a social construct, that we made it up, all of that is true. And simultaneously, it's the system that we exist in and so it becomes very real for people to be able to express themselves authentically within that system. I loved that comparison to money. So I just wanted to just throw it out there for anyone listening. Before we wrap up, is there anything you think we might have missed that should be covered for most people to have a basic understanding of what it means to be transgender or gender nonconforming or nonbinary or gender expressive? Any of those; we're kind of talking about a big giant umbrella, but there's a lot of diversity inside the umbrella. So is there anything you can think of, Smanatha, that we might've missed while we were talking about this?

SAMANTHA: I don't think so. I think that the important thing, especially since this is geared more toward parents and people who might be experiencing trans loved ones in their lives for the first time, just knowing that you're going to mess up and it's going to be hard and you're going to be okay. And you just keep trying and loving the person and you guys will get there. Gender is tricky. But it's really lovely. And if people can express themselves authentically and truly, it makes for just a beautiful and lovely experience.

JEN: I appreciate that. Thank you. I know that experiencing the trans people in my life over the past ten years has absolutely changed and opened, like you said. It's actually a beautiful thing to view gender in a much more expansive way and understand those concepts. It's not scary like we might be told. What about you, Beckett? 

BECKETT: I would say something that I always like to tell people who are struggling with their identity, their gender identity, trying to figure out, it's not about who you are. Don't think about that. That's such a huge overwhelming question. It's about what you want. I'm going to be corny and share a line from a poem I wrote. I said, “Through the mirrors and angles of your telescope heart you divine your own soul.”

JEN: Wait. Wait. Go back and say it again slowly so we can all hear it because that was really beautiful.

BECKETT: “Through the mirrors and angles of your telescope heart, you divine your own soul.” And I think figuring out who you are is going to come through figuring out what you want and what makes you happy. And so if you're someone whose child is struggling or if you're struggling with your identity, don't ask questions about you. Ask what clothes do I want? What name do I want? How do I want to feel? What's sparking joy? And if you follow that thread, you're going to figure out who you are. But you can't start with the big overwhelming questions of who am I, who is my child. Start with the small things and you'll get there.

JEN: I'm not even trans and now I want you to be my therapist and help me figure out my life. I want to express genuinely my deep gratitude for both of you just for existing and being amazing. I know that there's a risk for being publically vulnerable like this. I respect deeply that both of you are just out there living your best lives out loud for a variety of different reasons. But one of the benefits of that, regardless of why you're doing it, is it benefits the masses like myself and particularly it benefits the generations that come behind you. I want to express that I really appreciate you guys and the lives and example that you are just existing in the world. So thank you both for coming and taking this time with me.

SAMANTHA: Thank you.

BECKETT: Thank you, Jen.

JEN: Thanks for joining us here In the Den. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with your friends. We'd also love it if you could take a minute to leave us a positive rating and review on whatever platform you're listening to us on. Good reviews make us more visible and help us reach more folks who could benefit from listening. But review or not, we're glad you're here. For more information on Mama Dragons and the podcast, you can visit our website at mamadragons.org or follow us on Instagram or Facebook. And if you’d like to help Mama Dragons in our mission to support, educate, and empower the parents of LGBTQ children, donate at mamadragons.org or click the donate link in the show notes.