In The Den with Mama Dragons
You're navigating parenting an LGBTQ+ child without a manual and knowing what to do and what to say isn't always easy. Each week we’ll visit with other parents of queer kids, talk with members of the LGBTQ+ community, learn from experts, and together explore ways to better parent our LGBTQ+ children. Join with us as we walk and talk with you through this journey of raising healthy, happy, and productive LGBTQ+ humans.
In The Den with Mama Dragons
The World of Drag
- Marty on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@martymcguydragking
- Marty on IG: https://www.instagram.com/martymcguydragking/?hl=en
- Kings n Things: https://www.tiktok.com/@colakingsnthings
- Devida on IG: https://www.instagram.com/livingdevidaloca/
- Devida on FB: https://www.facebook.com/livingdevidaloca
- Devida on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@livingdevidaloca
- The Cardboard Castle: https://thecardboardcastle.net/
- Join MamaDragons today at www.mamadragons.org
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JEN: Hello and welcome. You are listening to In the Den with Mama Dragons. I’m your host, Jen. This podcast was created out of our desire to walk and talk with you through this journey of raising happy, healthy, and productive LGBTQ humans. We are so happy that you’re here with us.
Drag has been around since before the days of Shakespeare, at least. And yet the conversation has recently been loudly launched into national conversation.Because drag is particularly populated with LGBTQ people, the topic comes up often with our parents because of their children, obviously, and also because we want to be better advocates for the people we love. Like all national conversations and particularly those that become political, we would like to break down some of the misinformation and look more objectively at the reality of drag in the US.
We have three amazing guests to help us work through drag as they have experienced it. And in the future we’ll talk to others to better understand how people’s experiences are similar and different. So welcome to In the Den, Brandon, Marty, and David. Let’s start by having each of you introduce yourselves briefly to the listeners just so they have an idea of who it is that they're listening to. Let’s have you go first, Brandon.
BRANDON: Yeah. My name is Brandon Scott. I grew up in a very small town in southern Idaho. Murtaugh, Idaho had about 300 people at the time, extremely conservative christian. There was only two churches and one was the predominant. And I never really fit into that. I’m currently just going to school for social work. I’m 44. It’s kind of my second act in life, and just trying to make as many changes for the LGBTQI+ community as I can along the way.
JEN: Fantastic, that’s awesome. How about you, David?
DAVID: My name is David Zeely Wright. I live in Hickory, North Carolina which is a very conservative rural area of that state. But I grew up in Greensboro, North Carolina which is actually a very progressive area of North Carolina. So I moved here because – I wanted to move to Raleigh, but my husband, whom I met 24 years ago couldn’t move that far away from his mama. So that moved me to Hickory. But, honestly, we’ve made a great life for ourselves here. Growing up, religion was not a heavy part of my immediate family. But I had an aunt that I was extremely close to that it was a really big part of her life. And, unfortunately, negatively impacted our relationship when I did eventually come out.
I left drag and performance for a long period of time to finish graduate school. And my husband and I adopted our son. And about, I’d say about maybe five years into my career, I realized that being artistically anorexic was not good for me. And so I started getting back into drag, doing fundraisers, things like that. Progressing to the point now, where my husband and I own a production company where we produce all-ages drag brunches and more adult version theatrical and evening events. And I’m also going to be competing at Miss Gay America next January.
JEN: Thank you so much. I’m so excited to have this conversation with you. Marty, wrap us up on our intros.
MARTY: Sure. Hi. I’m Marty McGuy. I’m a drag king from Columbia, South Carolina. I grew up in Sumpter, very small town, not really political either way. But now I’m in the capital city of South Carolina, pretty progressive area and we are home to one of the only southern, eastern LGBTQ+ centers. It’s called the Harriett Hancock Center. I started to volunteer for them four years ago, perhaps. And I worked there on Saturdays and no one ever came in. And I was like, in my day job I work with children, work for advocating for better for 0-3 care and education for them. And I was like, I’m a performer. I’m a theater kid. We should do a Drag storytime. I was already doing drag. And it became really popular.
And then COVID hit and I had already got the ball rolling. There was a need for it, a love for it. So we started doing them online weekly during the pandemic. I ran that myself throughout the entire pandemic. And then, once the pandemic was over, started working in Charlotte, North Carolina doing Drag Storytime for their chapter of Drag Story Hour. And that’s unfortunately where I’ve met a lot of resistance towards drag. But hearing the children laugh and enjoy the storytimes has been worth all the agony and pain that I’ve had to endure to get through it.
JEN: Thank you. I have this little collection of questions to baby step through the details of each of you guys about your personal journey with drag. So I’ll mix it up in the order a little bit, but don’t feel like you have to tell the whole story in one bite because I have a pile of questions for you just to get to know you as people. So what first sparked your interest in drag? Like, how old were you, and what made you think, “Hmm, maybe drag is going to be my thing.” Let’s start with you, David.
DAVID: Sure. I don’t remember if I mentioned before that I do work in mental health and education. I’m a licensed clinical mental health counselor and I also teach Human Services and Psychology courses on the community college level. For me, the journey began at a very, very young age. And it was very much about understanding my experience of gender, my psychological experience of gender, in that I was very interested in dress-up, in girls' toys, and that was very not ok. That was considered very problematic particularly, I was born in 1976, you can do the math. But once I understood what drag was as a performance medium, I was like, “Oh. I think that might be for me.” and that was around 16.
I had dressed up and whatnot, but the first time I actually did drag was on Halloween before I turned 19 years old, actually. And I loved it. And the more it’s evolved, I always say that when I am performing that that is not a mask for me. It is the fullest realization of the complexity of my experience of gender. And it’s a place where I can sing, because I’m a live singer, the way that I want to.
JEN: I love that. And there’s a reason, right, why the community is so attracted to Halloween.
DAVID: Oh, sure.
JEN: I see Halloween in a totally different way after being welcomed by LGBTQ people. How about you, Brandon? What first sparked your interest in drag?
BRANDON: Mine compares to David’s really closely. I just always loved playing dress up when I was a little kid. I’d always find myself at the neighbo’rs house in her basement with all of her dress up clothes for her granddaughters. And I had just as much fun. I was lucky enough that she let me play with her lipstick and stuff a bit. And my grandmother let me play with her makeup and stuff. So it was always like, “Wash it off before your parents can find out” type of thing. But I did have people that were supportive of me being myself and whatnot.
And the first time I ever fully dressed up was somebody within my own cohort, my own age and stuff. I was 16 and it was just with a friend at home. And it was kind of a thing. It was magical. And I also, for me, it was really playing with gender as well. It wasn’t just drag as performance because there wasn’t really a safe space for me to try drag out or publicly go out in drag. I’d say the first time I really did it was in a bar and it wasn’t like the safest place for me to be in drag in small Southern Idaho. And it didn’t have the greatest outcomes.
But I see that the kids now being able to have safe spaces to try this out and see who they are, that’s a huge plus. And then my drag journey ended in central Texas for a while, didn’t play around with it much. When I moved back up to Southern Idaho as a hairstylist, there was a really big need for a big pride movement in southern Idaho and to like actually get the pride celebration going and a festival. I’d just done exploration of gender in a one man show that I did at a local community college. I was approached by a friend of mine to see if I’d help out providing drag for this festival.
And so I did and it kind of just took off after that. And drag, at that point, really helped carry the momentum of that, I felt like at that time. That’s where we got a lot of contributing stuff financially, and support was really pushed towards that from the adult side of town. And then, since going into school for social work, I’ve kind of followed some of the advice of some of my advisors by kind of stepping away from that while being in a small town, which has been really hard to censor myself. But I’m seeing the benefits of that. And I’m also seeing where it hasn’t really mattered, my past and my history, it’s still the bias of the area showing it’s pretty little face.
JEN: I tend to imagine, in the long run, I’m very familiar with your small little town. And I think in the long run, your history will actually be a huge benefit to your career when you start. I know all of the people that I would’ve sent to you.
BRANDON: Thank you.
DAVID: Do you mind if I jump in with that, really quickly?
JEN: No, of course not.
DAVID: Similarly, and I want to share with you as well, Brandon, I have the same feedback experience in my master’s program for counseling. And I, when I tell you to the letter, I literally would not allow people to post anything about when I did do drag previously. And was vigilant about it. And what I have found is the more and more and more that I have let that go and just been free and open and even going back full force into my artform – I mean, I’m literally getting ready to compete in one of the biggest competitions in the country. It had the opposite effect of what I was told it would in this little itty bitty southern rural town by living so unapologetically and authentically and being my compassionate, loving, helping self, it actually drew the people to me that needed to be in my office.
BRANDON: And in a reflection of that, I’ve already noticed that with an interview that I did for a piece of my education that I’m stepping into, the people already knew me from my performance and brought that up to where I was already let know that my authenticity is actually going to supercede my ability to put on their mask. So the mask is really just going to be for the current collegiate situation. But, I’m planning to be fully authentic as I go into this.
DAVID: That’s awesome.
BRANDON: Thank you for that.
DAVID: Oh, of course, listen. One of the things that took me a long time to realize and accept for myself, within myself, you know, my own internalized homophobia, etcetera.
BRANDON: Yea.
DAVID: The message I was selling, I was allowed to buy it.
JEN: Let’s back up to you, Marty. When did you start doing drag? What sparked your interest and drew you to it?
MARTY: So, this may be a little contrast, but I feel like when I was growing up, you always hea, “tomboy” that was more normalized. So girls can experiment without that stigma. And I was always more attracted to dressing up as masculine. And then my mom made the wonderful decision to get me into musical theater, which only exacerbated the problem. But I have an extremely, extremely supportive mom. When I told her I wanted to do drag, she was like, “That sounds about right, yeah. That’s not surprising.”
JEN: And how old were you, Marty, when you first called it drag?
MARTY: Well, it’s funny. I was a late bloomer, because unlike drag queens, drag kings are not as well known. As I recently got a troll comment from someone going, “You don’t see women dressing up as men and being drag kings.” And said, actually they are. And he goes, “Well, then that seems like drag queens are not giving you enough spotlight.” I was like, “Exactly.” So, it’s fun when we learn. But I didn’t know about drag kings until I was in my late 20s. I saw a drag king performing and I went up to them and I was like, “I want to do drag, but I don’t want to do female drag. How do I do this?” And they said, “What are you doing in a month, on Saturday?” I said, “Nothing.” “You’re performing.”
JEN: Right into the deep end.
MARTY: Yeah. and I had no, unlike drag queens where you can go online or look up RuPaul’s Drag Race, you had support of what to do to dress up. I had no idea. So I had to figure it out on my own, and it worked out. And then, thankfully, I met a huge community of kings. And then, because I started doing drag in Columbia where I was the only King every time they needed one, other people saw me that wanted to do drag as kings as well. And then we all found each other and now we have a pretty large group here in Colombia, South Carolina called “Columbia Kings and Things” which my friend, Han D. Mann, started. And we do events all throughout Columbia.
And we basically hire hyper queens, drag things, and drag kings. And the occasional cis queen when they help us out to support, but it’s a very underrepresented form of drag. And it’s not shown on RuPaul’s Drag Race. And there’s a lot of issues with that. But it took me so much longer to find it. I knew I wanted to do drag. I knew I was interested in makeup and theater. And it took me so long to find my niche because I saw somebody else do it. And now I’m really excited that people have seen me. And I’ll constantly after shows get people like, “I would do this. I didn’t know it was a thing.”
JEN: And I love two things that you touched on there. First of all, representation matters, right? Some of us have to see things sometimes in order to imagine it. But you also touched on the idea that different people are performing different things and it’s not always anymore, it’s evolved enough, that it’s not always a man, cisgender man, dressing up as a woman, right? You have trans people who are kind of picking their performance style. You can be a cisgender woman and still perform as a drag queen. The space, at least from an outsider perspective, seems like it’s becoming more expansive and more creative. I want to hear about your persona. And I apologize in advance if that is not the right word. You guys can educate me. But I want to know how it developed, like how did you become Marty? Where did you come up with your name and your overall presentation and your style of performance?
MARTY: So, sci-fi nerds might recognize my name as a play off of Marty McFly from Back to the Future. My all time favorite movie, Short King, we love him. But it was actually funny because my husband is also extremely supportive, I’m bisexual, and he did not expect this. He’s a straight man, that this would be what his wife was in too, but he was. But that’s my favorite movie and when we first got together, I was like, “Am I rushing into this? I’m going to test him to see if he knows this movie trivia.” And I said, “Hey, how many gigawatts does it take to travel through time and space.” And he said, “1.21 gigawatts.” like instantly.
JEN: Like right off the bat it’s true love if you can name the gigabytes.
MARTY: It was like [finger snap] that! So when we were deciding my drag name, we decided that Marty McGuy. So that’s kind of a connection for us for that as well. And, as for the kind of drag I do, it’s 99 percent musical theater. You can’t take it out of me. But I also work in education for 0 to 3. So I really wanted to do – everything was always going to be, anyone who came to my shows, it was going to be family-friendly unless it was obviously booked at a different event. It’s campy. It’s silly. It’s fun. It’s just the heightened version of me. I always figured if a celebrity was going to play Marty, it would be like a Leslie Jordan kind of type. That’s what I try to embody. But just silly, campy, fun, and I love it.
JEN: Fantastic. Same question to you, David?
DAVID: About my persona? So, I refer to myself as a nonbinary musical theater performer. Davida is the broadway belter of the Bible belt. Um, I am known for performing broadway standards, parodies. I do lip sync. Typically my jam is going to be like 80’s or pop. I was a makeup artist for 13 years. And so I’m really into creating the look. The look for me is usually very hyper-feminine. You know, believable, so to speak, with the volume turned up in places like hair, lashes, etcetera. Davida is also very much the persona of being a soccer mom because that’s exactly who I am. My son plays soccer and loves sports and all things athletic. And he’s kind of, “eh” about Dad’s interest in theater, glitter, and, you know, “Ta-da!” So it’s very much like an integrated. But also, being able to express the part of me that is a mom, that is nurturing, that is that part of who I just am naturally. So she’s all of that.
JEN: Awesome. Brandon, help us meet Ursula.
BRANDON: Ursula totally started at 16 with my best friend Christian. We decided to throw some gin and blue jello mix into a blender and my parents, my grandparents were out of town. We sat out on the river just looking. And I had a black turban on and my grandma’s denim dress and heels. And she’s like, “You need a name. What’s it going to be?” I was like, “Well, it has to be a villain, a villain name,” and so Ursula was born from that. And since Ursula has this glamorous side but also this pretty punk rock, so there’s some Lita Ford in there, a whole bunch of Courtney Love. It’s just one big old hot mess. Ursula also sings live and doesn’t do a whole lot of lip syncing. There was a little bit where everything was about lip sync, and so I started doing my own recordings and then lip syncing to my own voice, just kind of in revolt and protest. And that kind of gives a sense of what she’s all about.
JEN: Yeah. That’s super fun.
DAVID: I love that.
JEN: How did starting drag and performing drag impact your life as opposed to – I know it sounds like all three of you have done musical theater. How did, the gateway drug?
MARTY: That’s the real gateway.
DAVID: That’s the gateway.
JEN: How’s drag, as its own entity, impacted your life. Let’s go David, first.
DAVID: So drag, for me, the short version of this is I’ve met the most wonderful closest people in my life because of drag. Drag, when I started doing it, any way I can think of it simultaneously saved me and put me in incredible danger. And what I mean by that is to the point of what Brandon was saying earlier. At that time, we’re talking about the mid-early, mid-late 90’s. It was any environment that you were going to do drag, it was going to be a nightclub. There was going to be drugs and alcohol. It was just not going to be the best situation for a young kid trying to figure stuff out. But, as time has progressed, it just gives me this space to freely create, freely exist as I am. And I couldn’t imagine my life without it.
Oh, sorry. One other thing, um, just on the topic of Drag Pageantry. I’m a former Miss North Carolina. I won in 2003. And that sorority and sisterhood, my best friends have come from that.
JEN: Brandon, tell us how drag has impacted your life?
BRANDON: Drag really, for me, was a total sense of confidence and self-esteem. Like it built me up. Because, for the most part when I’d be out in public or be around people just as myself in conservative everything, it was really hard to present and put it all out there. But, as Ursula in drag, I could be whatever I wanted and there was no threshold on the parameters I could operate within. I could do anything I wanted and that gave me that confidence to just put it all out and be exactly who I was.
MARTY: I feel like, the good always outweigh the bad. Community is what I’ve found, especially with all the amazing – we have so many drag kings we could book in Columbia. Which, again it was just me for the longest time and the people that did it before. So there’s friendships so deep and I’m actually going through IVF right now which has been a real struggle for me. And the drag kings around me have been so supportive and said that they cannot wait to be all these fabulous uncles which is just a support system that I think any kid’s going to be really, really excited about.
But it’s also opened some really fantastic opportunities for me. I got to be – I’m going to feel like a nerd here – but my library put me in their quarterly magazine. I got to do a photoshoot with them and talk to them about sharing stories with families. And then, also, my church, I actually surprise people, but I have a very accepting church. And they actually are accepting, it’s not like, “Read the fine print.” I performed in drag there several times for their talent show. And then, when that article came out, they put it on there “What’s Happenin’” bulletin board. And it was so funny because we also do a program with our church which I also help fundraise and organize because of drag. It’s called “Safe Space Dinners” at Reformation Lutheran. And, now twice a month because we’ve got enough money for it, is a dinner for homeless LGBTQ+ youth to come eat, get a backpack full of resources, get a free haircut every month.
I was able to raise, through a drag fundraiser, almost $800 and was able to buy them a Nintendo Switch. Someone donated a TV through the fundraiser. And before, if it had just been me like, “Hey, can you all donate money to me?” I probably would’ve gotten like 20 bucks. I don’t know. But me as Marty and with generous other talented friends, people listen more and they hear it more and they are impacted to help and serve. So the very small glittery platform it has given me has, I feel, has made a big contribution to my small town. And I could not do that without Marty. And of course, just getting to see, when I do storytimes, just seeing families play and laugh together, I’m helping out with that too, which I feel really, really good about.
JEN: It’s actually astonishing. I don’t know if people know who are listening, but drag does amazing fundraisers for a lot of really, really cool charities. As far as like a collection of people that are performing, I feel super comfortable saying more generous than average when it comes to that sort of thing.
MARTY: When I get to talk on the microphone about a charity, ‘cause we also at “Columbia Kings and Things” have a list of queer owned businesses that we support. But when we get on the mic and talk about a cause, hearing it from us and, “Hey, this is impacting us and our community.” Someone offered to bring, they worked at Nothing Bundt Cakes. And they provided dessert for one Safe Space Dinner. People just, they get it and we get to have this platform that, again, we really wouldn’t have.
BRANDON: Can I add on to what Marty is saying because kind of what he was saying kind of expressed that there’s a role of leadership that comes along with being in drag and stuff. And that’s what I really got here in my community here in Twin Falls was I was just going to be a drag queen and put on these shows and stuff. But, truly, it put me in a situation where I was kind of a public figure. And people started coming to me. So it really kind of trained me for leadership in a way and made me comfortable with that role. To where now, heading into the role of social worker, I feel like that can kind of play over into that as well.
DAVID: I want to add as well, my husband and I, the production company that we own, Cardboard Castle Productions, all of our events donate to charity. We’ve donated over $15,000 just in the past two years, just us.
JEN: That’s amazing.
DAVID: And I would say, I would even go a step even further and say that drag artistry and drag performers, when the LGBTQ community was entirely underground, very much operated in a similar position as religious leaders in mainstream communities. That they led the direction of what the vibe was in a club, etcetera. They were always at the head of fundraisers and of making things happen. And I think that tradition has continued even as drag has been mainstreamed.
JEN: Yeah. It’s impossible, really impossible to overstate the impact of drag on the overall LGBTQ movement, especially historically.
BRANDON: One more quick little thing. Something else that I found really interesting when I headed into going to school and everything is, I was offered a scholarship from the local college to start out going to school. And that was because of my community action and community involvement from prior. So parents, like, “What is this?” Your kid wanting to go perform and have fun could actually lead to outcomes of paying for school in the long run.
JEN: That’s so awesome. I want to narrow in a little bit the concept. I don’t know if people are aware. Nationally, the conversation when people say the word drag, there’s automatically the assumption of what you guys were kind of talking about in the 70’s of seedy bars and dark alleys and those sorts of things. And I think a lot of the conversation focuses on that. But there’s actually a lot of types of drag. So can each of you talk about those types of drag and what kind of drag you have performed and what your favorite style of performance is. Because there’s a huge difference between what you’re going to do in a library with children and what you’re going to do in a seedy bar on the dark side of town.
BRANDON: When it comes to performance and stuff, I performed in a library. I didn’t perform as Ursula the drag queen in our small little conservative town. I performed as Ursula the sea witch. And it was really interesting how that was taken as being totally fine when there was somebody born male that was performing as a female character that was in a Disney show was fine. But, when it goes the other way, it really comes down to the fact that I think people over sexualize drag and don’t want to have those conversations. So they just shun the whole idea all together. A lot of my drag performance however, is taken place more theatrically on stage. I’m not the most comfortable with walking around, taking tips. It’s just a personal thing. But I think that’s awesome for anyone who does. But I mostly like the safety of the stage and the lights.
DAVID: A few points that immediately come to mind, one, night clubs were the only place where we were allowed to perform.
JEN: Absolutely.
DAVID: Like that was our option. And I think people forget that drag queens as performers are like most other performers and actors. We have range. So I can do a raunchy parody, which I really don’t because she’s a soccer mom. But I mean, I could at a nightclub or a pride evening event. Likewise, doing a story hour or brunch etcetera. And to Brandon’s point about the sexualization, a lot of times I feel like people project their own desires and their own hangups onto populations that they may not understand. And I think that that’s a big part of what’s happening in that lane is that there is that sort of dark fettishized, sexualized thing and it’s people that have zero experience with the art form. And may have some of their own stuff that they’re dealing with and then project that out.
JEN: I recently was having a conversation with a guy. It was a picture of a woman in drag. And it was – I’m sorry. It was a man in drag – and wasn’t sexual at all. And he was telling me, “Of course this is sexual.” And I said, “How is this sexual?” And he said, “because I can tell how I feel.” And I was like, hmmm.
DAVID: That’s about you, boo.
BRANDON: Yeah.
JEN: I was like, “That’s more about you. She’s actually in a kind of matronly grandma situation. That’s not.”
DAVID: Yes, and this is an issue with men in general and it’s not just straight men. It’s men, period. Other people are not responsible for your desire. That’s yours to deal with. It is not mine to govern how I wear makeup, wear clothing, etcetera to help you better manage your desire.
JEN: Absolutely. Tell us, Marty, give us your take on the types of drag and the type you prefer?
MARTY: Sure. So I mostly, I’m not going to mention their name, but there is a group in Charlotte, North Carolina. And it is a group of moms that come to our shows. They get their camera in our faces. They yell very inexplicable words at me. And then, unfortunately, children hear it which is awful. Now, we’ve made precautions that we can now get them separated where the children can’t hear it. We have wonderful volunteers that do that.
JEN: That’s nice.
MARTY: And what I really want to say to them is I know that they have the best intentions. I truly believe that they think they are right and they are protecting children from this. But what I also wish that they would know, is that there are people behind this makeup and these wigs that are very similar to them, that have similar goals. We also want the best for children and our community. Every performer I work with is in the medical field, is an educator, is a lawyer, is people in our community. It makes me think of Mr. Rogers, like these people in your neighborhood that they are attacking. And it’s very frustrating because it’s a very simple concept. It’s like seeing Eddy Murphy in Daddy Day Care versus seeing Eddy Murphy standup. It’s obviously a different movie. You would take them to different things. But for some reason, it’s this misconception. They see this one thing and they can only see it as one thing. And I think if they saw us as people, I think it would really make a difference.
And we’ve tried talking to them, it unfortunately doesn’t make a difference. But podcasts like these do help because there are people just hearing about it and they have this image that we’re monsters because that’s what they’ve been told. And then they meet someone or their child is gay and they associate with that and their whole world is turned upside down. And I just want them to know that drag performers, it’s an art form just like any other art form. There are layers. Now, is every drag performance for children? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. And there are some performers, like when I would do my drag story time during the pandemic, “Oh, girl. I can get on camera.” “No. I know your drag. You can’t wear that necklace. It says something that’s inappropriate.” because I know what’s appropriate for children and I pick certain performers when I do drag story time.
And also, if a performer doesn’t like children, they will not be in drag story time. They won’t be. So it is a mindset. We are professionals. And I will agree with them, again, not all drag is for children, but not all entertainment is for children. It’s just like any other entertainment medium. And I wish that they would see the complexities of their favorite actor in a movie versus like we’re a different character. And we hear a lot, “Why does it have to be drag? Why does it have to be drag?” They don’t understand the complexities of gender representation because that’s not anything that they’ve had to deal with yet.
And I love that they have never had to experience that hardship. But maybe someone in their life will and I hope that, when they meet that person, they meet them with more compassion than they do to us and that makes them more compassionate to other people. Because I agree with them, again, entertainment in a nightclub, very different. And you shouldn’t be bringing your child to an 11 o’clock show. I don’t agree with that. But if it’s on the flier, if you’re doing your due diligence as a parent, as a caregiver, you know what you’re getting them into and we should just be a little bit more compassionate and just use a little more common sense.
DAVID: I just want to add one thing. Marty, and I’m curious what your thoughts are on this. My feeling has often been that a lot of that anger and vitriol is because they actually have made sacrifices about gender expression and have a significant amount of resentment at the freedom of these performers that are abandoning those boundaries, rules, that are made up by society anyways. And there’s a sense of resentment, frustration, and anger because they didn’t get to have that freedom of expression. So they don’t want it to exist for anyone else.
MARTY: It’s that, yeah, it’s that phrase, “Hurt people hurt people.” And they’re acting out of their emotional state. And I agree with you. And a lot of the people that are attacking me come from very constrictive environments. You can’t watch Disney channel, it’s got demons on it.
DAVID: Oh, I know who you’re talking about. I know exactly. Girl, I know. I know.
MARTY: Yeah. I think it’s the phrase of, “Hurt people hurt people.” And they, honestly in their hearts, because they’ve been told until we break the cycle and they meet someone else like them, they’re doing the right thing. So we just have to be the bigger person.
DAVID: All girls should wear dresses. All boys should wear pants. That that . . .
MARTY: Because I had to.
DAVID: Right. And the biological absolutism. You know, “Penis goes in Pants.” That’s not biology, but ok.
JEN: I want to talk for a minute, some people do drag as a hobby, right, occasionally and it’s fun. Some people do it professionally or full time. Can you guys explain to those of us who are on the outside of this world how, obviously, you’re not getting paid $200,000 a year to read stories to children in a library. Like how does drag become a career for some people?
MARTY: I have a different perspective because drag kings cannot make enough money doing it professionally. There’s like three professional drag kings that I know that could make the living of it. They just don’t get booked often as queens. Then they don’t have a launching pad like RuPaul’s Drag Race to potentially make that money. There’s Dragula, but that doesn’t pay as much. Camp Wannakiki definitely doesn’t pay as much. So that’s never really – for now – won’t be an option for some of the drag kings that I know. But, I’m doing it semi-professionally, making a decent amount. But I think the biggest thing I get out of it, we touched on it earlier, is the community that we get out of it and the impact I can make socially and be a representative for the kings. But I know some people do it professionally. But I would have to have a balance because it’s more of a creative thing if I did it all day long, I don’t know. It’s definitely a creative outlet for me.
DAVID: So I probably have a slightly different perspective. When I was first starting out it was all about the creativity, the community, the gender euphoria, all of that. I didn’t care at all if I made – If I made Fi- Dollahs, I was a happy camper. And, like, bar tickets along with that, “Wee Hoo.” Coming back to it as an adult. And my husband’s an accountant. And so having some business knowledge, etcetera. I’m approaching it and I think this would be the case, honestly, for any performer in that field. I don’t necessarily think it’s required to be successful on television.
But I think you have to have a business acumen. You have to be able to produce a product people want to purchase. So whether it’s brunch events, whether it’s theater events, and it is a constant. Now, I treat it as a business, but it is not my full time gig at all. My full time gig is educator and therapist. But I like nice drag and that’s expensive, so I have to treat it like a business and run it like one. So I tend to try to create shows, book things, travel where I can, so that I can make revenue that justifies, even though I tend to be in the red, what I spend on drag.
MARTY: We just keep saying it’s an investment. It’s an investment. I’ve got to get this wig. It’s an investment.
DAVID: We need justifying that to ourselves. You know what.
MARTY: Yeah. I don’t think I’m retiring off of drag. I think I’m going to be buried with a bunch of wigs. That’s probably what’s going to happen.
DAVID: I’m going to be the little old lady in South Beach singing on a microphone at a piano bar. That’s going to be my retirement in tattered, beaded and sequin dresses.
JEN: How about you, Brandon?
BRANDON: For me, it was like advocacy for the LGBTQ community. And also just a way to like perform and write silly little shows and get little messages out and that kind of a thing.
JEN: You guys have all kind of touched on this, but I want to narrow a little bit. Why do you think, right now, drag is so popular for both performers and audiences?
DAVID: So drag was, because it was an underground art form for so long, and it was our best kept secret of how magical and powerful and wonderful it is. Just about every queen I know, whether they’re trying to do it professionally, make money, or volunteer, or how-some-ever. There’s a sense of community engagement, awareness, even for the ones that are evil as all get out. They’re still an awareness of community and impact. I think, and it’s boundless. It is boundless creativity. It is not limited by the idea of gender, gender constructs where only this type of person can play this role or sing this part.
And I think that is, for me, it’s endlessly fascinating to watch where people go when you take those boundaries off that are socially constructed. And I think as it’s been more and more available to mainstream audiences, they have felt that joy and that excitement and that celebration and connected it even for themselves. That one of my clients, he’s as straight as all-get-out. But his daughter is painting his toenails and he came in with flip flops and it was not a thing. And I like to think that drag queens had something to do with that.
JEN: That’s super sweet. Brandon, how about you?
BRANDON: I kind of see it the same way. And if you look back through the decades, like in the 80’s, Newave came up and everybody started wearing some makeup and their hair got huge. And then, after that you go into the 90’s and punk rock kind of came out and you had Green Day and Blink 182 come out and everybody was like, “F*** the system” and taking over that way. And then it’s just been this cycle. And drag was just the next one that came up from the shadows and the subculture machine and got turned popular so that we could make a bunch of money for the whole corporate capitalism and everything.
JEN: And that’s the next turn. What about you, Marty? Why do you think drag is so popular?
MARTY: It’s funny because we’ve cultivated, my business partner, Han D. Mann, we’ve created a lot of trans women that come out to our show, trans men, cis women that are never seen, again, never seen a king before. And they come up and they’re like, “I could do that. I could embrace my masculinity. I want to try it.” Sometimes we’ll have audiences come up and give it a try. And someone did a full split and they were like this quiet person ever. And they were like, “I felt comfortable with you guys.” And every time I say if anyone wants to come up and volunteer, there’s a stipulation that everyone in this room is going to be supportive and nice and we’re not going to talk, “Oh. That’s so embarrassing.” That won’t be tolerated here.
And they’re always a big fan of that and it does make people come out of their shell, the quietest people. And they start coming out to shows because they feel a part of it and they feel connected to us and each other. And we’ve had some great friendships come of that. We’ve had some great friendships and we’ve met new artists that have come on. We just had a poet, a published poet, Evelyn Berry. I'm going to shout her out, come to one of our shows and become a regular. And she wrote a poem about us because she’d never seen a drag king before and read it at slam poetry.
JEN: Love that.
MARTY: But art inspires other art, inspires other art. Heck, we’ve even had someone come out and, “Hey, if you ever want a balloon artist to come out here, I can do balloon art while you guys are getting ready.” Sure! Art inspires more art. And everyone has artistic means inside of them. And when I did drag storytime online, I emphasized mostly anyone can come on drag storytime because I couldn’t get drag people up early enough to be on the show.
But, also, because I wanted to show that we’re all a community and that drag is an art, and their art is art. So I had my niece come on and show us how she painted something. A highschooler came in and did a drawing tutorial. We had someone who did an exercise routine for kids. So these are all their forms of drag and art. And so I think that that’s really exciting that drag is my art, what is your art and how we can share it together. And so that’s why I think it’s become popular. It’s just what’s inside you that you can bring out and show to the world.
JEN: So, obviously, if I jump away from personal experience, it seems really obvious to me in the myriad of lies and misinformation – I’m actually just going to say lies. Lots of lies being told about drag in general and I think the biggest one that’s making the biggest impact is that drag is somehow dangerous to children. We’ve touched on this a little bit. But can each of you share your thoughts about that lie? Let’s start with you, Brandon.
BRANDON: For a long time, the social norm was just kind of created drag as a subculture underground. And as David was kind of saying, it only existed in bars and club culture and stuff. So it’s really easy to link that to deviants. You know what I mean? And so who wants to expose their children to something that’s deviant? But, the truth of the matter is that the deviance lies in the mind of the person thinking it. It doesn’t actually lie in the artform as Marty is saying. Because some performances are actually geared to be for children the same way you see somebody dressed up in some stuffed animal outfit, dancing and singing along to some music. It’s no different. It’s just a version of performance.
DAVID: Because it’s interesting, drag, as we understand it in gay culture, of course has been in night life. But one of the things that I wasn’t thinking about until literally, until I just heard Brandon talking, was drag as an expression has existed in things like Looney Tunes, and old Hollywood films, in Mrs. Doubtfire, etcetera. That in those presentations, they're found to be non-threatening. I think the association with the gay community is where it is automatically associated with sex and sexuality. And I think that that has perpetrated the same bed of lies that was made in regards to gay men being predators or pedophiles is the exact same bed that these folks are making on this particular topic because it is politically expedient. We’re a small population .It’s harder for us to fight for ourselves. So it’s easy to lie about us, marginalize us, to upset and concern a group of people that you would like to vote in a certain direction. And it’s just effective.
JEN: Anything to add, Marty, especially because you do kind of focus on kids. A lot of your performance.
MARTY: I definitely agree with both of them. And I think, especially, when people say, “I don’t want drag.” They’re saying they don’t want gay people. I have seen it when I was in my toddler class and my two year old class teaching. I used to be so scared like if that kids puts on a dress, I’m never going to hear the end of it from their dad. But you wouldn’t hear that if a little girl put on a Nascar costume. But it’s this fear that they have done something wrong and I think that’s why it’s so important to show our masks off. Again, at every show I say, “If you’re going to come to our shows you need to support us by helping us, listening to what’s going on, because the people that you’re hurting are your doctors, your lawyers, your nurses, your teachers, the people in your community.
And I think, once we get rid of that stigma of gay=bad. And it starts with kids. And, honestly, it feels like couples and families that are against it, really start grooming children young. We hear that, “Oh, you have a boyfriend yet? Oh, they’re going to be a real heartbreaker.” And we would never do that. So I think it’s just changing the mindset. Also, I remember once I had a co-teacher say to me, “You know that boy likes purple, right?” I was like, “I’m going to need more elaboration on that.” But it’s really adults that push that and I really wish that we could break their mindset of that. Because, again, really you would think that Robin Williams – we bring that up all the time – and Bugs Bunny but it’s because it’s associated with gay culture that they start to get panicked. And that’s the biggest stigma and that’s where we need to get them away Gay=Bad. Gay is good.
JEN: Gay is neutral, right? It just is. How is the current national conversation with all of this legislation? It’s impossible to acknowledge and talk about the legislation regarding trans people without acknowledging the conversations with drag and how intermixed they are and ideas about “We’re not going to talk to children about being gay,” and the book bans are all so intertwined. And it’s obviously all directed at one specific community of people, not any specific actions, but the actual people. And I’m interested, as members of that community, because I am on the outside, as members of that community, how is this overall national conversation impacting the members of your community and how is it impacting you as an individual? Let’s start with you this time, Marty?
MARTY: Oh, sure. Well, South Carolina is one of those states where they are doing anti-drag bills. A great friend of mine who is president of the Harriet Hancock Center, Matthew Butler, works for the South Carolina chapter of the ACLU. And he has been working with the local drag performers, at our shows, to talk about this. Because, again, sometimes people are like, “I want to go to the gay club. It’s really fun. I’m going to have such a great time.” And they forget that we’re, again, real people, that this affects us. But what I really worried about these laws, I am a cis person, I can take my drag off and live my day. But a lot of the people that come to our shows are nonbinary, trans, and they can’t take it off and this is going to affect them.
And, again, when we say, they’re coming for drag, they’re coming for gay people. They’re coming for trans people. And they are getting hurt. I can stop doing drag any day now. But they can’t stop living their lives. And so it’s not just like, “I won’t get to do my Patty LuPone mix anymore.” I’m hurt for my friends because this drag is being used as a shield to say who they really want to hurt. And I think it’s so important that we use our platform and my privilege as a cis performer to make sure audiences are up-to-date on what’s happening, who to contact, how they can help. As much as I appreciate a tip, I’ll take both. You can tip and then go help our chapter of the ACLU. We know what they’re going for and they're using drag as a shield for what they really don’t like. So it’s very important that we keep our ears and eyes on the ground.
JEN: David, what impact do you see on the community?
DAVID: So, for us, we have now lost two venues for our family friendly drag brunch. We also chose not to have our story hour this summer. We did our first one last summer. It was called the “Whosoever Story Hour”. And it was in an open and affirming church. And we had some of the most beautiful reconciliatory moments with adults and their kids about faith and gender and connection. It was absolutely wonderful.
JEN: Love that.
DAVID: Well, and what’s interesting is that, back when all of this started ramping up, we originally were in a different location. That got canceled and there was an article about us in the Washington Post. It was all over the place. That’s when we moved to the church and I actually thought it was a better situation than what we were originally going to do. And just to give you an idea of what I feel like this kind of vitriol and negativity is causing or creating. Two years ago when I was doing drag brunch, I wasn’t as worried or anxious about a lot of this stuff. Now, the second venue that we had to part ways with were because people from a church were coming in screaming at teenage employees and harassing people eating lunch. “Why are you supporting this place? They have a drag brunch.” That was the reason because they were concerned for the safety. Words and actions from leaders have consequences. And when they are lies, those consequences can be more significant.
JEN: Yes. All of that! Brandon.
DAVID: And don’t get me started on my discussion boards in my Psych 150 course because with the chapter I teach about sexuality and gender, one of the worst semesters.
JEN: I’m laughing and all of the sudden, it’s not funny. I was expecting a good story out of that.
DAVID: No. No. No. Well, good in that, if we’re trying to compare just how far out into the stratosphere people can get when you talk about natural variants of human sexuality and gender, as soon as you use that word . . .
JEN: Those dishonest conversations are dangerous. That’s the perfect word that you just used. How about you, Brandon. What impact are you seeing?
BRANDON: Really, in our local community, I haven’t seen much of an effect on the current going-ons. A lot of the time people opposed to drag don’t necessarily protest in person. In this community, they like to do it all online. And the thing that worries me about that, the only thing I have to compare outcomes to, is my experience with “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” in the 90’s. And during that time, growing up in that period, I worry about the kids that are growing up around this and seeing this happen and the viewpoints online and everywhere else. Because growing up in that area and realizing that my government was against who I was as a person, everyone around me was in support of my government being against who I was as a person, and every business, every everything was against me.
Why is it that I need to go out and try to succeed to be anything other than just falling into drugs, alcohol, partying, and all that. There was no option for me to want to go to school. And I really kind of get, I don’t know, it’s kind of weird because it shouldn’t affect me this bad. It does trigger me when I’m standing at a business that asks me, are you a veteran? Would you get the veterans discount? And I always like to kind of pipe back with, “I grew up during Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell. Thank you, though.” You know what I mean? And the kids and the youth that are growing up right now, that’s where we’re going to see how this is affecting us.
MARTY: I will say though, that we get a lot of younger college kids that come to our shows and this generation is ready for it. I hope they go into office. They show up to all the rallies. They listen. They talk. They support. They care so much.
DAVID: I think what’s hard there, Marty, is that the other side, the children from the other side of that conversation, are equally, like it’s a little scary how polarized it feels like right now to me. Those discussion boards I mentioned are high school students. And it’s a little concerning.
MARTY: What I hope though, is we’ve seen a lot doing drag on social media. There has been some amazing stories of people deconstructing from their environments when they get out on their own. And I hope that I show love and warmth and they understand and they change their mind. And that’s the best that we can hope for because obviously, it must having that constant negative influence and then they can meet people like us. So I have hope for our youth so that’s why I love working with them. They’re full of hope and hope that they can change and make it a little bit better than how we’ve left it.
JEN: Before we go, I’d like to ask each of you just to share any parting thoughts you have about drag that you would hope that our audience could understand. Let’s start with you, David?
DAVID: Wow.
JEN: Maybe even touch on parents who have kids who are wanting to explore this world that might be feeling afraid.
DAVID: Ok. That actually gives me a real clear direction as a parent. My son is often with us at events because I don’t leave him with strangers and I’m very protective as any parent would be of their kid. And I’ll be very honest with you, parents whose minor children want to be involved, buckle up because you need to be right there with them. I think understanding drag is like any kind of entertainment. It attracts all kinds of folks, all kinds of people, creative people, people with different experiences, etcetera. And that if your kid is interested, then that means you need to be there with them, with it.
Just like you would be with the community theater. Just like you would be at the band concert, what-have-you. But at the end of the day, what drag is really about is creating and painting with gender. It’s using that as a palette to create. And it’s very much like a reflection back of society and culture whether it’s a rejection of certain things or a hyper-celebration of a certain norm. You know what, my ultimate thought is drag is for everybody. Drag is everybody. And parents just need to be responsible. And the folks that have got all this negative stuff to say that have zero experience in education, mental health, medicine, etcetera, please stay in your own lane. If you lack the education and expertise to have an informed opinion, please just stay in your lane.
JEN: Fantastic. How about you, Marty?
MARTY: Yeah. That was completely spot on. Again, I think drag is, again, just like any art form. Everyone does it differently. But, again, I highly recommend that the adults that want to explore it. Again, I love what you said David, doing it together, doing it safely. I always recommend going to a Pride, like the kids area. Look in your area if there’s a teen, youth queer group. Those are fantastic. And if there’s not one online, just finding resources. That’s always my favorite thing because, again, I’m an early childhood person, we think of Mr. Rogers and finding the helpers. That’s how I found my community was reaching out to other people and you as a parent and guardian can help navigate that world. And if you don’t know what to do, you can find someone to help.
JEN: Alright, Brandon, any parting words for the audience?
BRANDON: Playing dress-up is always going to be fun. And if that leads to being a drag king or queen or drag performer, whatever you want to call it, so let it be. Have a blast!
JEN: I like that you think it’s fun for everyone to dress up. That is not fun for everyone. That is very far removed out of my comfort zone. But I like that it’s fun for other people and I like to go watch the results of it at the end.
MARTY: That’s why Halloween is everyone’s favorite. Everyone wants to dress up.
DAVID: And Ru Paul famously said, “We’re all born naked, and the rest is drag.”
BRANDON: Yes.
DAVID: We’re all putting on a persona of some sort every day. Ya’ll think I wear a polo every day of my life? I was doing a continuing education teaching other folks about LGBTQIA identities and other stuff so I needed to look a little professional.
JEN: I want to thank each of you guys for coming today to give us a glimpse into your own experience with drag. We plan on doing additional episodes on drag and I love that the three of you joined us for our launch into that conversation. I genuinely believe that our best hope as a nation is to really start to understand the humanity behind all of these conversations, the people that we’re talking about, so that we can understand each other. And you all gifted us with a little bit of that today. So thank you so much.
MARTY: Thank you.
BRANDON: Thank you for what you do.
DAVID: Thank you so much.
JEN: Thanks so much for joining us here in the den. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with your friends. We’d also love it if you could take a minute to leave us a positive rating and review on whatever platform you’re listening to us on. Good reviews make us more visible and help us reach more folks who could benefit from listening. But, review or not, we’re glad you’re here. For more information on Mama Dragons and the podcast, you can visit our website at mamdragons.org or follow us on Instagram and Facebook. And if you’d like to help Mama Dragons in our mission to support, educate, and empower the parents of LGBTQ children, donate at mamadragons.org or click the donate link in the show notes.
