Just the FAQ's 4

EPISODE 35–Just the FAQs 4

In this episode of In the Den, Jen joins therapists Lisa Tensmeyer Hansen, Laura Skaggs, and David Zealy-Wright to answer a handful of frequently asked questions regarding parenting an LGBTQ child. 

• I’m trying to support my child, but I don’t know if I’m doing enough?/How do I support my child without dragging them along too quickly?
• What advice do you offer to people who have family members who are not able to be affirming to their children? 
• “My child just told me that they are ______ and I’m afraid they were molested or assaulted?
• We know that LGBTQ people are hit with things like microaggressions and major aggressions every day. Do you have ideas or thoughts that might help them prepare kids to handle these things in ways that are healthy for them?

Special Guest: Lisa Tensmeyer Hansen

Lisa Tensmeyer Hansen is the clinical director and founder of Flourish Therapy, Inc., (Flourish), a behavioral health clinic in Provo, Utah, which she founded in 2017 to meet the needs of LGBTQ+ individuals and their families. Lisa received a B.S. from Brigham Young University in 1990 as university valedictorian (Summa Cum Laude with Honors thesis), an M.S. in 2012 and Ph.D. in 2017, both at BYU, focusing on improving the mental health of LGBTQ+ people in conservative families and communities. She lives with her husband in Payson, Utah, where together they made a home for 7 children (and a few extras) and now have 18 grandchildren.

Special Guest: Laura Skaggs

Laura Skaggs is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist who specializes in treating spiritual trauma at the intersection of LGBTQ+ experiences and religion. Laura earned her master’s degree in marriage and family therapy at San Diego State University with an emphasis in LGBTQ+ mental health within conservative religious social contexts. Laura is also the co-creator of CWEERS Empowerment groups: a practice designed to help LGBTQ+ individuals and their supporters confront social discrimination and internalized stigma. Laura is the mother of two daughters and presently sees clients full time in Provo, UT, as part of Flourish Therapy.

Special Guest: David Zealy-Wright

David is a Licensed Professional Counselor (Licensed Clinical Mental Health Counselor), a Licensed Clinical Addictions Specialist, and a Clinical Supervisor Intern(Certified Clinical Supervisor). He graduated from Catawba Valley Community College in 2005 earning an Associate in Arts, Lenoir-Rhyne University in 2008 earning a BA in Psychology, and in 2010 an MA in Agency Counseling. His specialty areas include addiction, depression, anxiety, life changes, men’s issues, relationships, and LGBTQIA issues. As an addictions specialist, he believes that addiction is a disorder, not a moral failing. David is a native of Greensboro, North Carolina, but has lived in Hickory for over 23 years with his spouse. 

Transcript

JEN:   Hello and welcome. You are listening to In the Den with Mama Dragons. I’m your host, Jen. This podcast was created out of our desire to walk and talk with you through this journey of raising happy, healthy, and productive LGBTQ humans. We are so happy that you’re here with us.

It’s time again for an episode in our recurring series of Frequently Asked Questions.  Our Mama Dragons support groups are such an amazing place for people to ask questions and get support and ideas from others in similar circumstances. And over the years, we notice the same questions come up time and time again as new people newly enter this well-trod path.  So every 6-8 weeks we try to bring together a team of beloved support to tackle a few of those questions. And, today, we would like to welcome back, David, Lisa, and Laura to In the Den!

 

We do have official bios for each of you in our show notes and our listeners might remember some of you from previous episodes, but I’m hoping we can start off by having each of you introduce yourselves to remind our listeners why you’re are among our podcast favorites and give them, maybe, some courage to listen, with your credentials? So, let’s Start with you Lisa!

LISA:          OK. Jen. I’m so happy to be here. I’m Lisa Tensmeyer Hansen, she/her pronouns. I grew up in suburbia, Hoosierland. People who know what that means, know that that means Indiana. Came out to, go to a conservative university. Met my husband, 7 children, and 22 grandchildren. Then I went back to school and eventually got a PhD in Marriage and Family therapy. I went back, specifically for the purpose of understanding the queer experience in conservative religious context. 

And after I got my doctorate, I started a non-profit clinic. We now how over 50 therapists working at that non-profit clinic who focus exclusively on the LGBTQIA+ community in Utah and also 14 other states. And so, over the last six years that we’ve been in existence, I think we have come really close to understanding many of the traumatic issues that families experience, the institutional problems, the relational dilemmas, the whole culture clash of having children that identify differently from what parents expected. And that’s what I hope to bring.

JEN:          Fantastic!  How about you, Laura?

LAURA:      Yeah. So, I’m Laura Skaggs. My pronouns are she/her. I’m a mom and I have a masters degree in marriage and family therapy. When I did my master’s degree, I did an emphasis in LBGTQ experiences at the intersection of conservative religious social contexts. And, part of why I did that, because that was also the two intersection that were shaping my personal life. And so it was a really personal journey for me. And I ended up also really focusing on spiritual trauma that sometimes happens at those intersections and helping people heal from that trauma. So, those are pieces that are really near and dear to my heart. 

And right now I am working with Lisa at Flourish. And I’ve been there now for six years doing what we do. And it’s a good place to be. Good to be here with you guys.

JEN:          Thank you so much. Last, but not least, David, will you introduce yourself?

DAVID:      Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me again. My name is David Zealy-Wright. I am a licensed clinical mental health counselor as well as a licensed clinical addiction specialist. I live in Hickory, North Carolina, about 45-50 minutes from Charlotte, North Carolina, a pretty rural area. My pronouns are he/they. And I identify as nonbinary. I went to graduate school at a Lutheran university and I find that I spend a lot of my professional time and energy having conversations about the impact of religious-based trauma, particularly living in a rural area. But, of course, how I experienced that as someone that understands the brain differences associated with the queer identity as being something that is a natural born experience versus just a decision. So that’s something that I’m really passionate about working with young people and their parents to help them find a more gracious acceptance of each other.

JEN:          I am so excited for this episode. I’m sure all the listeners can hear why, just from your collection of experience between the three of you. For our first question, I actually am going to combine two different questions that are almost opposite ends of the spectrum, but they come up a lot. And they remind me of each other. Sometimes parents will ask, “I’m trying to support my child, but I just don’t know if I’m doing enough?” And other times parents will say, “How do I support my child enthusiastically without dragging them through the process or having them feel like I’m trying to push them too quickly?” Sometimes these connect most to the trans experience, but it’s kind of with everything. So, can each of you speak to the idea of that sweet middle spot when it comes to supporting our kids and maybe how most of us never hit it directly.

LISA:          I’ll just start and say it’s super hard because kids are not really all that great at telling us exactly where that sweet spot is. If they would just lay it out, it would be easy for parents to say, “I could do this and this and this. I can do more on that. Can we negotiate on that?” But that isn’t what happens. Kids usually either show dissatisfaction and they can’t articulate it. Or they express it with frustration. Or they’ll ask about it tentatively like it doesn’t really matter to them, when it matters at a 10 to them. I just want to start by saying I get why that’s hard.

DAVID:      I think, in my way, and I immediately think of a situation that I’ve dealt with directly in my practice where a minor was expressing interest in transition, etcetera. And the parent was very supportive, but had in their head that there was a correct way to support their trans kid. And I just looked at them and said, “Well, what would you do if your child was cisgendered? In what way would you support their interest in expressing their gender identity if they were cis?” And, essentially, using correct pronouns, helping them pick clothes out, that kind of thing that’s very kid normal with adolescent kids. And just as Lisa was saying, knowing that with adolescence, It’s pretty typical that they don’t really, a lot of times, give us a lot of information about what direction they want us to go. And that’s developmentally appropriate.

LAURA:      You know what, my mind was just sort of filing back to different clients that I sat with as they talked about their parents. And three themes just are jumping out at me. Like, the first and foremost thing is always the direct, whatever direct things are happened, conversations are happening between a child and their parent, if they’re feeling safe in that conversation. But, then, the other two were like how my parent talks about me with other people, especially people that we have in common like family, and family friends. And if it’s in positive and supportive ways and like modeling how those significant people in the family’s life should be treating and seeing that child, and they seem to really appreciate that. You know, when mom said this in front of grandma, or mom said this in front of our friend. Or dad wasn’t afraid to say this or to stand up for me or to say something positive. 

And then, also, just taking their child to do something whether it is shopping in a way that’s affirming, right? Like, in a way that’s gender queer or affirming of someone’s gender identity. Those things are really concrete. Or buying that rainbow thing and actually not being afraid that anyone else sees it. Things like that. So, those concrete things tend to stand out to kids too. Those are just the things that are coming up in my mind.

LISA:          Those are great! And I think it's also Okay to say, “What do you wish I was doing more of? What am I doing that you don’t like so much?” Not as marching orders, I think parents are afraid that once they hear something, they’re supposed to do it. And if they don’t do it, they don’t love that child. But just to have your child tell you that and “Interesting I hadn’t thought of that.” or “I was wondering about that.” or, “Can I tell you what my fears are about telling grandma” or whatever it is that is happening. It can open up a conversation. But I think asking that question, and lots of kids wish their parents would ask that question.

DAVID:      One of the other things that I also often find myself talking about that I don't think it’s talked about enough, is that parents of LBGTQIA children end up having their own coming out process. And when we’re talking about, within the vein of conservative parents, it’s a coming out process as part of a community that they never dreamed or imagined that they would be a part of. And there’s not a lot of support or conversation for these parents are they’re trying to wrap their brain around that coming out process, which often mirrors the stages of grief of like denial, and depression, and anger, and working towards acceptance. And many of us that are on the queer spectrum, we’ve been doing some internal work about accepting our place within that spectrum for many, many years before we disclose to our parents. Now, of course, with the kids we’re talking about, there’s less time there. But I think that that’s a really valuable conversation to have as well.

JEN:          Thank you. You guys are awesome.

LISA:          Sometimes I have parents who really think that they’re doing a lot and their child doesn’t. This is often a typical presentation of a family because the parents have shifted so far away from what their natural expectations were when they had expectations. Most parents reach a point where they begin to give them up, but we do start with them. And then, they’re child has hopes and dreams that they eventually just shut down about the family. And say things to their therapists like, “That’s as far as my family can go.” Or, “That’s all my family can do.” Or, “I can’t wait until I’m 18 and move out.” And that horrifies most parents. 

All parents have a little part of them that hopes that happens, that they move out and have a good life, but parents don’t want their kids to just be dying to move out. They want them to want a relationship. And one of the things I think helps parents frame this is to think, “Has my family culture simply opened up a little bit for my child’s culture and tolerated it? Or has my family culture expanded so that anyone who sees our family culture knows that it embraces my child’s culture.” 

A family that has a queer child has a child who is growing up with a different culture than the family culture. And to think about it in these terms and find ways to expand the family culture to celebrate, to make it an essential piece is part of – I think your questions is, “Am I doing enough?” If your family culture hasn’t done that yet, that’s something you can do without waiting for your child to ask.

LAURA:      Just building off of what Lisa and David were saying, really, because we’re talking about evolving timelines of journeys of parents and children, right? And, oftentimes, even once a parent starts making these positive shifts and showing up in these affirming ways, it actually takes a long time of a parent doing that consistently for the child to actually really trust it and know that they can rely on it, and know that that’s something they can lean into and feel more safe in and sometimes be able to convey that more clearly to the parent. So, even if you’re trying and it doesn’t seem like your child is responsive to it or able to take it in, that’s usually rooted in maybe many years of fearing rejection or old ideas that were shaping how the family saw queer people. And now the family’s made the shift, but the child is now having to heal from that and having to learn to trust this sort of new, more affirming, response. And it takes consistency over time to really rebuild all of that. So don’t give up just because one attempt or a few attempts don’t feel like they’re sort of, fully healing and reshaping things.

DAVID:      And just dove-tailing real quickly, again, really listening to your kid. Particularly if we’re talking about Caucasian families. Because here you really have a unique experience of where you have a child that is having an experience of being a member of a marginalized population or being a minority or discriminated against in some way that their parent may not relate to, may not understand how to empathize with and connect with. So listening is going to be crucial, working through your own stuff about your own coming out process, and recognizing that privilege that you did not have to contend with this previously, is really valuable, I think.

JEN:          I love how these questions are so complex that we could talk for an hour about something as basic as how to support. But I’m going to move us on to question number two. What advice do each of you offer to people who have family members who aren’t able to be affirming to their children? This can be extended family that we visit and coordinate with. But sometimes, it’s actually people who are living in the home, maybe an older sibling, or a spouse. This has to come up in your practices. What advice do you offer to your clients?

LAURA:      I would say, you know, most queer people that I sit with, they absolutely do not want to cut off relationships with their family members. That feels like the thing that they would want to avoid at all costs. And so, oftentimes, we talk about boundaries and some safe distance on a continuum of how close do I feel comfortable being. And sometimes there are chapters where I need certain family member who just haven’t gained an understanding of how to support me, sometimes I need them pretty far out on the periphery of my life. Not in a cutting off way, because, again, I don’t think that’s what anyone wants to do. But sometimes quite a bit of distance while they are doing some really tender healing work and identity work and having to really lean into spaces where they don’t have to fight to be safe and to be seen, and to be treated with respect. 

So, that’s sort of the starting point of a lot of conversations that I end up having with clients about how close or how distant but not wanting to fully lose relationships. But maybe they will grow, maybe I will grow, we’ll kind of see how this goes. But there will be, maybe, a season of distance or chapters of distance to allow for some shifting to happen. And then finding some safe spaces where I can get what I need and really emphasizing that.

LISA:          That is really the basics of it, is navigating how close and how distant, depending on experiences people have and how challenging or crushing they are, the family. I think it’s also helpful to make sure the people understand that the discomfort they feel around non-affirming people is not about them. So often, when people feel like they don’t fit or they don’t belong, they have a self-blame that they can’t even articulate. It just comes in like just a pain in the chest or the gut like there’s something wrong with me. Reassuring the person that that discomfort is actually the discomfort of other people and it’s not something they deserve, not something that is wrong with them. 

So starting out with that reassurance, validating that feeling, but helping them recognize it’s other people’s discomfort that are being pushed onto the person. And that the other people are used to being comfortable around whoever they want to be around. And the presence of this wonderful, authentic person, is now creating some discomfort that’s being pushed back. And so the reassurance of, “It’s not you. It’s the dynamics of the discomfort.” Will help you find ways to leave it where it belongs. You don't have to take it home with you. You don’t have to be responsible for it. You don't have to spend a lot of time analyzing it or over-analyzing it. It is not yours, though the feelings you have around it are valid. I think that’s a piece of advice I would try to give.

DAVID:      So, my thoughts on this may lean a little bit more on – I don’t know that the word extreme is the right word – but I am very much “team boundaries”. And the place that I land on this is this. Is that for most queer people I know personally and professionally, there’s a feeling of being gaslit, that this is my reality. I know that this is not a decision that I made. And these relatives that are unwilling to be accepting or even in some cases just basic kindness say, “No. No. This is a choice you made.” Because they can’t handle their own cognitive dissonance that this is not a decision. 

There comes a breaking point, I think, unfortunately, with a lot of people and family, where it is simply not healthy for you to be around them. And your leverage is your time. And that if a family member simply refuses to sit and hear you, it is okay to go no-contact and cut them off. And that’s the place that I frequently find myself with clients, particularly in rural North Carolina where if I were to take religion completely out of the equation, the dynamic or interaction is abusive that’s happening between this parent and this child. And this child is just saying, “Please hear me. Please listen to me.” And it is a refusal to do so because of the challenge to the belief system. And that’s just not tenable. So, eventually, I think, unfortunately, you do get to a place where you have to go no-contact in some sense.

LISA:        And, make sure, if you decide to participate, that you have your own transportation away, you have a safe place you can go stay in case there’s something that comes up. Always having a safety plan or a backup plan if you try something, so you’re not left solutionless and vulnerable.

JEN:          We did the two cars at every event for a long time in case one of the kids needed to step away, a parent could go with them without making as big of a scene with all six of us rushing out the door at the same time.

LISA:          I also want to add that parents can do a lot. If the non-affirming family member is not them, that is. If you go and visit and aunt and an uncle and somebody in the family system that is not affirming, parents can do a lot to say, “If any non-tolerant expressions happen at this future event, please know, my family will pick up and go.” Or telling grandma, “Please keep that letter. Do not send it to my child.” Running interference is something that every child I know is grateful when a parent does.

LAURA:      Just building off of that, I think the words of, obviously since most people listening to this podcast will be parents, being able to say to your queer kid, “You deserve to feel safe. You deserve to feel safe. If we are in any sort of situation where you don’t, that matters to me and we will move accordingly whether that is we will leave together or speak up. We can be collaborative about what sort of action takes place in a given situation. But those words, I think, are so powerful. And they also teach that young person – whether you have to intervene in those ways at all – you’re teaching them something very powerful about how they go out into the world and then protect themselves and how they form boundaries of like, “I deserve safety. And I’m going to make decisions accordingly, even when my mom or dad aren’t around.” That’s an important value.

LISA:          Some parents make the mistake of thinking that it’s better to tell their child to curb some behavior or something that they’re wearing that might tell everyone else that their identity is meaningful to them. And they think that they’re doing it to help their child be safe. They think they’re doing it to make sure that their child doesn’t trigger some kind of bullying or difficulty within the family. But, as Laura is saying, it sends a message. It sends a message that the feelings of the people out there are going to be much more important to me as a parent than your safety and your ability to thrive. And so it’s helpful for parents to examine their motive and err on the side of defending their child’s ability to thrive if they’re not quite sure.

LAURA:      Because your child is already going to feel those same pressures. And they’re going to feel those same tensions, so they don’t need to hear that from you. And they're going to have to make complex decisions, right?

DAVID:      You don’t want to be your kid's first bully. I mean, that’s boiling this down very simple. You want your kid to feel safe at home with you. My kid loves to play soccer, has black toenail polish and long hair. Like, it’s a conglomerate of stuff and I think that’s awesome that he is comfortable expressing himself and I’m not going to spend a lot of time being worried about what somebody at Target thinks about that.

JEN:          So, this question, I’m thinking will have some pretty quick answers because it comes just from a world of misinformation across decades. But it comes up regularly. So I think it’s important to keep re-educating, re-educating on this topic. And the question sounds something like this: “My child just told me that they are ______,” something in the LGBTQ spectrum. And the parents sort of panic and say, “I am so scared, wondering if they were molested or assaulted, maybe even when they were too young to remember.” What do you guys have to say to this. It’s a common fear that we see in the groups.

DAVID:      Okay. I’ll go first on this one because I can answer this real, real easy because I do have some background working with sexual assault, etcetera. I ran a support group for men that were victims. And the thing that – there’s a couple of lanes that we can go into this. But the number one thing is that sexual assault does not impact sexual orientation. If it did, everyone that was sexually assaulted by a member of the same sex, would end up growing up to be homosexual. It’s a basic correlation/causation conversation here. 

What sexual assault does, is affects sexual behavior. And culturally, we tend to associate sexual behavior and orientation like they go hand-in-hand even though we know they absolutely do not. So, no. Any experience of childhood sexual assault is not going to make your kid be on the queer spectrum. It may effect how they express themselves sexually, etcetera, because we know that that’s the impact of sexual abuse and sexual assault.

LISA:          And it’s easy to see why parents are afraid because they didn’t see it coming. They think it must have to do with something that they didn’t see. And almost all parents are afraid that they missed something really important. So that’s what comes up for us when something unexpected happens to our child, we immediately go to that place of what did I not see or not take care of. But what we do know, is that sexual assault usually targets people who are vulnerable, obviously vulnerable, who do not seem to be able to fight back, who do not seem to have a solid group that would kick if something was happening to their friend, somebody that looks like they are alone and needs a friend and they’re the easiest to groom. And we know that that is the description of many queer children. So, if a child has been sexually assaulted, we recognize that that’s going to have a big impact on their sense of safety in the world, but it does not impact their orientation.

DAVID:      One other thing I want to jump in here too. Since, particularly since the 1950s, there’s been a very heavy, heavy effort to indoctrinate this ideology of queer people being predators. And it’s been particularly convenient in election years. And so the problem is, and I think why parents go there first, is because that’s what the indoctrination has been. Because the conversation is really born this way/chose this way. Well, if chose this way, then that means it was environmental or something I did as a parent versus this was just the gift that was given to me with my child. And I think that that’s why that question happens is because for a lot of parents, they don’t default to that because that’s not been the conversation.

LISA:          Yeah. We wish parents saw it as a gift. That would be so cool.

DAVID:      Yes. It would. Well, because it is, like most neurodivergencies. ADHD brains have such cool things about them. Autistic brains have such cool things about them.

LISA:          And I just want to bring this back to something from the prior questions. One of the first questions, I can’t remember. But one of the beautiful things about having a queer child is they really are more patient with parents than most teenagers. That’s what I’ve discovered. It’s like, “I know this is really hard for my parents. I know they are working the best they can.” I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard that, giving parents excuses even when, I as a therapist am thinking, “That’s pretty egregious behavior on a parent’s part.” The young person is like, “I know where they're coming from. I see that they're trying.” And then they also flip in there, they’re upset too. But I think queer children are often very patient children.

LAURA:      Just, maybe this is rewinding a little bit, but I remember being in graduate school training as a therapist. And when you do that, there’s like a two-way mirror to where one therapist is working with a client and then another therapist is sort of standing behind and learning from the experience. It’s very voyeuristic in some ways, not typically. But I remember standing behind a mirror watching a classmate working with a gay client. And standing there behind that mirror with a professor and a couple of other classmates. And this gay client had come in and reflecting on their life. And asking the same question, “What made me gay?” because he definitely grew up in an area where there wasn’t a biologically understanding of orientation or gender identity. 

And he was also trying to piece through experiences that he had had early in his life of being assaulted sexually. And sort of saying all these things out loud. And I remember at the time, my very astute professor pointing out to all of us. She said, “When straight people are potentially assaulted, they never have to ask themselves, is this what made me straight.” Trying to help us understand how pervasive this bias is some sort of negative, even if they were assaulted, even if someone was assaulted by a heterosexaul person as a heterosexual. And we don’t think that is what made them heterosexual, right? 

Or if they were even assaulted by someone of the same gender. And so that was very poignant to me in sort of challenging that bias. And fast-forward. I remember a couple of years after that, I myself had come out. And I remember taking a long road trip with an aunt and talking about it. And she just made this assumption that I had been sexually assaulted somewhere along the way. Here’s that old awful falsehood showing up directly in my world too. And I remember saying, “No. That never happened to me. This is justlike my eye color or my hair color. That’s what I experience it is. And that’s what I understand it based on all of these things that I’ve read.” And she argued with me. She argued with me that that was the case. And how awful it was and how disconnecting it was. And then being stuck in the car for this whole long trip and trying to process what it was like for someone to impose that idea on me.

LISA:          She was sure you had had childhood sexual assault?

LAURA:      Oh, yeah. Almost like arguing with me like, “Oh, no. I’m sure you have and maybe you don’t remember it.” Like, all of these things. I’ve never shared that publicly that I had that awful experience. Do not share this theory with your child. But I think parents innocently do all kinds of things. This is like passing on really bad, faulty information and then your child who is very vulnerable, your child is probably still making sense of their orientation and their identity. And that is a very awful thing to inject into their identity development.

DAVID:      And it immediately sends that message that, “Clearly something’s wrong with you. And we need to get it fixed.” And as soon as a kid picks up on that, it’s done. Sharing, being vulnerable, being open is over. It’s done.

LAURA:      Yeah, because we’re essentially sending the message that your orientation is symptomatic of an atrocious violation.

DAVID:      Yeah. It’s pathology.

LISA:          So a parent who has made that mistake. It might be helpful to actually be explicit about apologizing for it. I can’t think of a child who would not appreciate hearing a parent say, “I want to apologize for making an assumption that you might have or must have been sexually assaulted. I recognize that that has absolutely nothing to do with who you are and I really do want you to trust yourself about who you are.”

DAVID:      I love that. I love that. It’s such a confirming statement. Particularly what we were talking about before were a lot of LGBTQIA kids feel very gaslit in these conversations. “Oh, no. Your reality can’t be your reality.” Like, Laura, I’m sure that’s what that felt like in that moment, is you being told your reality was not your reality.

LAURA:      Yeah, or that I didn’t know my own story. I don’t know. It was very jarring. I hardly knew how to respond.

LISA:          You wanted to get out of the car.

DAVID:      Cognitive dissonance will make people act in all kinds of ways.

LAURA:      Right. But I think that it speaks to a broader dynamic where as queer young people and people coming out, there has been a lot of spaces wherein – like people who have never experienced being queer are comfortable telling stories about you rather than listening to the story of the queer person. And so this is just one example of that. But if we want to take this to the broader level of how do you shift from here's all the things that I’ve heard, to how do I listen to the experience of the person sitting in front of me and take seriously what it is that they’re sharing with me.

JEN:          I’m listening to Lisa’s suggestion of parents speaking. And I feel like this balm of comfort of love and comfort and support. I never even had that experience and I’m like, “Oh, I want someone to say that to me.” It’s not even my experience. These healing words and these conversations, I think we need to be really careful to not make assumptions that if we change our thinking our kids understand that that has happened. So I appreciate that idea. 

All right. I’m tossing another one at you. Ready? We know that LGBTQ people are hit with microaggressions and major aggressions every single day. Sometimes it’s unintentional, like the most well intended people say the most horrible things. And sometimes it’s just plain out cruelty and bullying. And, as parents, we have to send our kids out into the world. I feel like I want a shield and I want to walk ten steps ahead of my kid and just bat out the horrible things. But our kids have to move through the world. And they go to school and they have friends. So do you have any ideas of things that parents can do to help prepare their kids to handle these macro and micro aggressions that they are going to absolutely experience as they go throughout their days.

LISA:        I think it’s helpful, actually, in whatever family meetings a family has, to talk about microaggressions that other people might experience and the empathy that we have for them. There are many examples a family could talk about so that the family has the experience of understanding that others have a different experience than we do. And the family can talk about who’s responsible for the bad feelings if someone is excluded because of the shape of their eyes or if someone is asked too many times where they’re from when they’re actually from your neighborhood. What kind of experiences people have, having a family conversation about that without it being focused on your child, can actually help the whole family just talk about the experience of microaggressions. So that when a family member experiences one and wants to bring it home and talk about it, there is a place for the family to feel it and understand it. Just to give it context and validity from the very beginning. It’s not so much protective as it is just a process. But processing microaggressions can be very helpful.

JEN:          I love that because it is too easy for those of us who have never experienced those kinds of things and moved through life with a great deal of privilege. It’s really easy to almost argue with your kid and try to talk them out of it to cheer them up, right? Like, “I’m sure he didn’t mean it that way.” Or you have to understand.” and you’re trying to kind of talk your kid into this positive experience you have. And you’re approaching it like giving the parents some empathy in the start also. I love that idea.

DAVID:      I love your words as well. I found that very comforting. I feel like I’m always having the conversation of being more aggressive, which is not necessarily my intention. But I think one of the really hard parts about this question, Jen, is for most of these other microaggressions, including sexism because this is an experience that I’m sure the three of you being female-presenting you have experienced microaggressions that I have not as being more male-presenting generally speaking. But their protected. And currently right now in all the schools – North Carolina just passed this really unfortunate legislation that makes it harder for kids that are on the queer spectrum ot feel safe or to respond to micro or macro aggressions. 

So I’m afraid that a lot of, in this lane, parents will be in the position of just like they would advocate for their kid that has a learning disability or any other kind of difference, of going straight to administration when there is an issue. And saying, “I’m not okay with this.” “Well, that’s just how that teacher believes.” Well, that’s not appropriate. I’m afraid that that is the position, because this construct, I’m afraid for a lot of kids sometimes, it’s too big and they can feel like there’s too many people not on their side which I think contributes to some of the rates of people compelting suicide. So I think in this particular lane it ends up, actually, squaring right with the parent going into the school setting when it’s really problematic and saying, “I’m not going to tolerate this and I’m going to be in your office very week until it stops.”

LISA:          Research tells us that bullying doesn’t stop until the adults actually take action. There’s nothing you can tell your child to do that’s going to solve the problem.

DAVID:      Particularly when it’s literally you have people legislating against keeping your kid safe in school. Like that says it’s okay to out your kids in North Carolina. That you can’t from fourth grade – Damn, my kid is going to be in fourth grade – technically he’s not supposed to talk about his dads. You know, it’s really problematic right now and the adults just have to be at the table.

LISA:          I think another thing parents can do is ask children who is a safe adult in, whether that’s at church, whether that’s at junior high. Do they know a safe adult that if they had some kind of trouble they could access someone who would let them borrow a phone or protect them, safe space, any place they go. If they go to dance lessons, do they know an adult who’s safe there?

 Many young people talk about, “I knew who the safe adult was. I never really had to contact them. But just knowing they existed and they were there, made a huge difference to me.” So helping children recognize who the safe people are. And if parents want to, and if the kid is okay, actually having a conversation with that adult, “Are you the kind of person that if my child had some difficulty, they could come to you in your classroom or wherever you are on the pew or whatever it is. Can they reach out to you?” Safe spaces are super important for queer kids.

LAURA:      I think, also, when I – again sitting with clients and we’re talking about how do we navigate minority stress? Oftentime we’re talking about connecting with other people like them. People who are also queer typically people who are also minorities or have a lot of experience with connecting with people with minority statuses. So maybe they’re really great allies. And being able to talk about their experiences with those people, not only helps them process what they're experiencing, but also just that feeling of being less alone. Like, “Well, at least I’m not the only one and we can commiserate together.” 

And there’s a lot to that. And then, also, we’ve been touching on all throughout, this element of after an incident potentially does occur, like the first go-to thing isn’t always to talk about it. But first to find safety, whether it’s comfort food or decompression or maybe they just want to go in their room and close the door and turn off the lights for a whole evening before they’re ready to even speak about what happened. And so, safety is usually the first go-to piece often before we can start asking, “Hey, what happened?” and find out even what was going on. 

And then, it’s really important for us to be collaborative when we start talking about, “Okay, what do we do now?” We go from what happened to what kind of choices and options do I have to potentially address this. And when I’m sitting with people, we’re talking about this idea of when to hold them and when to fold them. Like, when do I want to speak up or when do I want to just have boundaries and stay away or some combination, right? There could be all kinds of options to explore and, at least in the kind of conversations I’m having with clients, we’re never talking about a one-size-fits-all. We always just sort of charge in and “just get up and get out.” It’s not always that simple. 

And part of the healing process of coming out of a traumatic experience is being able to have some control about what happens next. And so we want to plot that out with some thoughtfulness and make sure that whoever we’re advocating for and that queer young person feels like they are in the driver seat in that process. So that it can be a re-empowering and a healing experience. And, again, resolution or response to some sort of incident can be very different depending on all kinds of factors.

JEN:          Before I move us on, Lisa, I just want you loudly and clearly to restate the most genius line yet in the history of the universe. Can you tell us again when bullying stops?

LISA:          Bullying only stops when adults get involved.

JEN:          I just want everyone to absorb that and memorize it. Maybe put it on a t-shirt. It’s so succinct and so perfect because sometimes we do think that old school, just fight back, or maybe it’s your fault, kids don’t have to do that.

DAVID:      That needs to just be a hat, backpack, t-shirt, sticker.

JEN:          Right? Absolutely. I’d like each of you to share with us one piece of advice that you would offer to any and all parents who are new to this journey.

DAVID:      I think the most important thing that I do share with parents, can share with parents, your baby is still your baby. While there is that thing that’s completely different about them that you were not expecting, all of the other things are still there. And so, while you figure out what to do with your feelings about this thing which you did not expect, make sure that you are still loving on, nurturing, seeing, being present with all the other wonderful parts of your kid. And let that part of the journey continue just as you would if your child was cisgender or heterosexual as you perhaps presumed that they would be. Because, a promise, as things come back around and they become young adults, it will strengthen your relationship with them. Even if you don’t agree on certain things, you will still have that strong relationship.

JEN:          That’s beautiful. Thank you.

LAURA:      I would say it’s never too late to say sorry. Whether it’s a misstep or you wish you would’ve said or done differently. And then really trust actually returns not just by that moment but by consistency in the new direction over time. So, it’s just moment-by-moment, little-by-little. And be patient for it to gradually build back.

JEN:          That’s also lovely, Laura. Thank you.

LISA:          I love all of it.  The kind of things I was jotting down you’ve said already. But I do have some more. One is you will likely want your children to know your own feelings about this and what your journey is like and how it feels. And my advice is do not tell your child about the difficulties that you’re having in this journey. It’s not your child’s business. It’s good to talk to other adults in your own coming out process. As a parent of a queer child, talk to other adults about your feelings. And in conversation with your child, be the receiver of your child’s feelings to help them process it and begin to trust themselves. 

Growing up in a family that does not have the same culture they do, their default will be to not trust themselves or to betray themselves and then be angry at you as the parent. And so if you give them a place to process that, they will begin to see you as a safer person. But if you start to tell them your own feelings about how difficult it is, they will start to feel like their job is to take care of your feelings. And they will not actually process their own. 

I will also say, it would benefit all parents to begin to understand or spend more time understanding what it means to be heterocentric or cisgendercentric so you begin to understand the assumptions that you’re making that your child sees all the time and feels pain over that feel normal to you. You may not recognize all the time your child feels pain unless you’re willing to be educated about that topic.

JEN:          As a parent, it isn’t easy to listen to your child tell you how you’re causing them pain. But you’re so right. Absorbing that and really hearing it, changes everything. We have lots of family in our little world that would tell you to the ends of the Earth, that they love my two queer kids. And that is not necessarily the same as my two queer kids feeling love by those same people.

LISA:          That’s a particular kind of gaslighting almost all queer people feel. You love me. Mm-hmm. I get it.

JEN:          I hear the words. I hear what’s coming out of your mouth.

LISA:          And parents want to say back, “You have no idea how much better a parent I am to you than my parents were to me.” This is universal. Parent’s really do feel this way. Your child does not deserve to hear that.

DAVID:      And the  child does not, will not have insight -- I was just having this conversation with a friend. It was like my kids have traveled all over the world. They’ve done things that I never got to do growing up. And you’ve made that their normal. So they have no insight. So this feeling that you feel like they should be grateful or whatever feeling you feel like they should be having is based off your childhood. So you’ll need to talk to your therapist about that, because your kid’s not going to have insight into that. And that’s wonderful because you gave them the opportunity that this is their normal.

LISA:          Talk to other parents and therapists and have a rich life where you can talk about all your feelings. And then be the nurturing parent that your child needs so that you have a relationship with them for the rest of their lives.

JEN:          This is such an aspect of that “Be a parent, don’t be a friend” to your kids. And I don’t think we talk about it in that way. I think we focus on that as a measure of discipline. But, as an element of nurturing, I love that little shift that we can’t be friends with our kids. We have to parent our kids when it comes to all things, not just the discipline. 

I say this to you guys, I think you’re awesome. I’m so grateful. Beyond grateful. I can’t even express how important I think it is that people have some place to turn for education, especially individuals who can’t afford to access therapy and working that out still and trying to figure it out. and I know you guys get paid to do this stuff. And so I’m so grateful that you volunteer your time and donate it to the parents who might be listening just to help elevate the conversation on an, even a national level, so that we can stop some of the trauma that we’re unintentionally inflicting on our children. I’m so grateful to all of you, again. Thank you again for participating.

LISA:          Thanks, Jen.

DAVID:      Thank you so much.

LAURA:      Thanks, Jen.

JEN:          Thanks so much for joining us here in the den. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with your friends. We’d also love it if you could take a minute to leave us a positive rating and review on whatever platform you’re listening to us on. Good reviews make us more visible and help us reach more folks who could benefit from listening. But, review or not, we’re glad you’re here. For more information on Mama Dragons and the podcast, you can visit our website at mamdragons.org or follow us on Instagram or Facebook. And if you’d like to help Mama Dragons in our mission to support, educate, and empower the parents of LGBTQ children, donate at mamadragons.org or click the donate link in the show notes.