Emmy Awards, Resilience, and Queer Joy

This week In the Den, Jen sits down with Jeffrey Marx to chat about a variety of topics, including Jeffrey’s fascinating career as a reality television casting director in Hollywood, his journey to winning an Emmy, embracing his body size, and finding queer joy amidst the challenges of life. It’s an episode you won’t want to miss! 

Special Guest: Jeffrey Marx

Jeffrey Marx is an Emmy Award-winning casting producer for reality television. Notable credits include HBO’s We’re Here, Love on the Spectrum, MTV’s The Real Word, Nailed It! and more. Before his career in TV, he followed in his mother’s footsteps as a special education teacher. Jeffrey got his start in casting when he was cast as a player in “The Glass House”, which is still streaming on the ABC app. He went toe-to-toe with a very kind Mormon mother over gay marriage on the show and, later that year, became boyfriends with a man from a very devout Mormon family. Although they aren’t together anymore, Jeffrey’s experiences with the LDS community have shaped how he approaches casting queer stories today. Now happily partnered with a non-Mormon boyfriend in Los Angeles, Jeffrey reflects on the dynamics of love, faith, and what “family” means to LGBTQ folks.

Links from the Show:

• Article about Jeffrey: https://metrosource.com/jeffrey-marx-has-a-colorful-path-to-an-emmy/?fbclid=PAAaYRdn_P-B1dDUosbHwoPyHcoRrEJz9NLyvR3T6hsm-Xcsv9Dt49U_usUwM_aem_AVJYuwAcrMH6MCULFtsS5FUdY7fUUrYD4nQJdtzCDWARK2kpQja_Ix2LwbvuY8a_OLQ
• Link to Jeffrey’s IG: https://www.instagram.com/jeffmarxthespot/?hl=en 
• Join Mama Dragons: www.mamadragons.org 

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Transcript

JEN:   Hello and welcome. You are listening to In the Den with Mama Dragons. I’m your host, Jen. This podcast was created out of our desire to walk and talk with you through this journey of raising happy, healthy, and productive LGBTQ humans. We are so happy that you’re here with us.

Have you ever met someone and felt abundant charisma?  You were able to feel admiration and awe, and simultaneously just comfortable with them?  These sorts of people are rare in the world, but we are drawn to them and I am curious about what makes them tick. Today, we have just that sort of person here with us.  Jeffrey Marx has done it all when it comes to the world of entertainment.  We are going to talk about how he has led a life of gay inclusion and body positivity and negotiated a brilliant career so far.

Jeffrey Marx is an Emmy Award-winning casting producer for reality television. Notable credits include HBO’s We’re Here, Love on the Spectrum, MTV’s The Real Word, Nailed It! and more. Before his career in TV, he followed in his mother’s footsteps as a special education teacher. He got his start in casting when he was cast as a player in “The Glass House”, which is still streaming on the ABC app. He went toe-to-toe with a very kind Mormon mother over gay marriage on the show and, later that year, became boyfriends with a man from a very devout Mormon family. Although they aren’t together anymore, Jeffrey’s experiences with the LDS community have shaped how he approaches casting queer stories today. Now happily partnered with a non-Mormon boyfriend in Los Angeles, Jeffrey reflects on the dynamics of love, faith and what “family” means to LGBTQ folks. We will include links in the show notes. But you can connect with Jeffrey on Instagram @jeffmarxthespot. Welcome, Jeffrey, In the Den. 

JEFFREY: Hi, Jen. Thanks for having me.

 JEN:          I have been enthusiastically looking forward to this conversation.  You have been on a short list of dream guests, for me, since we started this in January. So I’m super excited that we’re doing this today.

JEFFREY: Oh, that’s so sweet. I’m happy to be here.

JEN:          To start us off, talk to us a little bit about what your childhood was like as a gay boy in the 80s and 90s in conservative Orange County.

JEFFREY: Sure. So, to paint a little picture for those who don’t know, Orange County is a very red island in southern California. And growing up, I always kind of knew. I went to a private Christian grade school, a private Catholic High School. And religion was always in the forefront of my educational experiences. And I always just knew to keep quiet about my feelings about, “Oh, my gosh. I think I’m attracted to boys.” And that didn’t really come up in any real way until immediately graduating high school. But pre-college, it always was like “Just keep the secret buddy. Just don’t say anything. Go to the lunchyard with your choir friends andy our little theater arts friends.” P.S. We all turned out gay in adulthood by the way.

 And we went to one of the nuns on campus. She had her own private garden in the back of her little house that she had on campus, Sister Pat. And boy-oh-boy she knew what she was doing. She created such a little safe place for the misfits, the kids who didn’t know they were gay yet, kind of kids. Or maybe we did and just weren’t talking about it. We all just kind of found each other. So she created this fun little garden in the back that we would all have lunch during our high school years. And, I know my mom always did her very best of communicating, “Hey, no matter what you want to be when you grow up, or whoever you want to marry someday, it’s okay with me.” Like I remember very specifically my 15-year-old brain being like, okay, mom’s communicating positive messages to me about whatever or whoever I want to be is okay with her. I’m going to take that positive message and I’m still going to sit on it for a few years. 

But that was really kind of it. I always had a sort of firm self awareness and very firm self acceptance. I don’t know why. I don't know where it came from. Lots of people have asked me that. I just sort of had an instinctual acceptedness of who I am. I just knew the world around me wasn’t as accepting. So I kind of weaved and dodged through the years up until college. And then I went to a public theater school college in the area and it was like everyone was gay immediately. So that’s kind of the brief history of Orange County and navigating my private education up until that point.

JEN:          So your mom was a huge support. How did the rest of your family process this idea of you being gay?

JEFFREY: Well, you know, it’s interesting. The order of which I came out to my family, I always assumed my mom knew. My mom and I have an unspoken brain connection. We can communicate without words. It was never anything that I was like, ‘Oh, I feel scared about telling my mom” because she always was very good about broadcasting the warmth and welcoming spirit as moms should and do. Now, my dad on the other hand, was kind of a jerk for a lot of other reasons, but not just the hang ups of gay stuff. But also was just very sports minded and I had to play sports. He was very competitive minded and I had to be competitive. 

And I had a younger brother who was all of those things. And I was not. And so there was a lot of favoritism ingrained into, literally, everything we did. And I got the message very early that my brother was better than me and I’m not as good as my brother. End of story. And that was never really connected to, “It’s because you’re gay,” right away. But it certainly was. It was absolutely part of it. I was the creative kid. I was the artistic kid. I was the one who wanted to go play with my friends, and dresses and hats on and play dress up. And I had more girl friends than I did guy friends at that age because they’re easier to be friends with. So it just was very clear the favoritism. 

The next person I came out to, ‘cause I never really did come out to my father. It just was a slow evolving freight train that once I was in college and free and clear of living in anyone’s house, it was like, “Oh, and Jeffrey’s gay? Okay. Well, we don’t live together. I guess I don’t ever have to talk about it.” And still, to this day, we kind of don’t. Whenever I rarely see him, we’re not really, technically, on speaking terms. But when I do see him it’s always a weird thing. But the next person I came out to was actually my brother. Because once he got into the college-level age and was hanging out with my friends – And at that point we were all like, we were going to friends houses for parties, and parties in a garage, and just hanging out listening to music. And some people were DJs and stuff like that. So it was like a college vibe, right? 

And my brother wanted to hang out with me and my friends because we were cool. And one night, he said something. I honestly forget what it was. But it was something disparaging about gay people. And all my friends just stopped and turned around and looked at him, looked at me, like, “Are you going to say something?” And I literally did. It was the record scratch type of moment. I literally turned off the stereo and was like, “Hey, Justin, I just heard what you said about that and I just want to let you know that I’m gay. So you need to drop that immediately or else you don’t get to hang out with us.” And it was an immediate realization for him of like, “Oh, I didn’t realize that was a thing. Okay. Sorry.” And he never has been weird about it since. 

He really isn’t about the gay stuff. He’s of a different generation and him and his wife are very open about that stuff with their daughter – who’s my niece, she’s 17 now. And so she’s very of a now generation with all those types of thoughts and ideals. And then my step mom and my step sister, they were kind of like, no problem with us. But, now, later in our adult years, my step-mom, my step-sister, and my dad are of a bastion of non-liberal ideas, shall I put it. And we’re just not a vibe anymore in our adult life. And that’s okay. I'm totally okay with that. My mom is sad about it, and that makes me sad. But I personally don’t feel like I’m missing out on anything.

JEN:          I read a story about you, just a little one, that I loved. I think it tells a lot about who you are as  a person. So I’m hoping you’ll share it with our audience if I give you a couple of little hints.

JEFFREY: Of course.

JEN:          So you had a speech teacher who had each of you write about a secret. I love this story. Tell us this story.

JEFFREY: Okay. This was very early on. This was maybe my first semester or second semester of college ever. So I had just graduated Catholic high school and I immediately joined the community college, the public school theater department. And I was so excited. It was all artistic people. All people who loved plays and putting on musicals and stuff like that. And one of the classes that first year was from a speech teacher who I’ll remember forever. One of the assignments was I want you to give us a secret. Write about a secret that no one else knows about you. And I wrote a very nice, very well worded essay about being bisexual. And it was my first toe dip into being public about my sexuality. And she read it. 

And after each class she would pull two or three people aside to kind of  go over their essay to talk about it at length because she wanted it to be like an oral report for the class, like an oral essay that we were going to perform. And she was like, “Hey, you’re amazing in class. I love your contributions. You’re really smart. You’re really bright and funny. I want to challenge you though. – and this might not fly in today’s world but she was like – are you really bisexual or have you thought you might be homosexual?” And I was like, “Oh, actually, yeah. You’re right.” I came so fast. I was like, “No. That tracks. You’re correct, actually.” It did not take me very long to immediately go, “Yeah. I’m definitely gay.” I have no experience in the topic, but I definitely am gay. That feels right to say. I have my entire life been such an authentic, open communicative persons. That, as soon as the inauthenticity of my identity in that conversation was confronted to my face and what I had written, I immediately was like, “Absolutely. Let’s move forward. This is the new truth.” And I ended up rewriting the essay and just changing bisexual to homosexual throughout the whole thing and it was lovely. She was great. She was a great teacher.

JEN :          I love that teacher who was like, “Hmm. This was sort of honest. But only half way. Let’s just finish it up.”

JEFFREY: Almost. So close.

JEN:          So, I want to start by talking about your career. First of all, because sit’s fascinating. So I need to be really careful not to suck up an entire hour right here because that would be super easy. Last year you won an Emmy, which is amazing and we’ll get to that. But I want to start at the roots. I believe you were in early high school when “The Real World'' on MTV came out. You and I are pretty close to the same age. But it had way more of an impact on you than it might have on the rest of us. Talk to us a little bit about that because it seems like that’s where this whole career path sort of started for you.

JEFFREY: Yeah. I really did. So I was a freshman in high school in 1992 when “The Real World'' started on MTV. And it was kind of those formative years. “The Real World” beginning was really the launch of modern-day reality TV. For better or for worse, it was the original sort of grandfather of television shows.

 And, to me as a 15 year old freshman, this is a really interesting way to meet new people. This is an interesting way to meet people that I wouldn’t normally meet in my daily life here at this catholic, very white, school in Orange County. And there is something as another gay person in the world. It’s not just me. This is someone that’s in media now. There’s a real person on a real television show talking about being gay openly on television. That’s me. I identify with that. And that is why representation in media is so important which I really got engrained to early on of what stories matter, what types of people aren’t always represented on TV, what stories do need boosted into the world, things that we can changed society a living room at a time, right? That was something that early on got really engrained and interested into my psyche. So, as I grew up with “Real World”, I just really liked it as a social experiment. Every season of “The Real World” I was like, who’s going to be on next, what issues are going to come up, there’s seven different people. They’re going to cast seven different stories with seven different backgrounds. And when they all mix up, sure, does that make for great drama? Yes. And we love that. Get the popcorn. 

But also in the collision of thoughts and ideas comes changes, comes sharing yourself. It comes with being raw and candid and open and authentic and being able to learn from each other. And I just always loved that as a natural extrovert. I just love investing in people in an authentic way because when you give each other a piece of yourself, it carries on into other people you meet, into other circles you travel in, and you take those experiences and it’s like a ripple effect. Like throwing a pebble into a lake. And it’s that rippling of the water of sharing your heart with people. Anyway, I’m very romantic about reality TV. There’s definitely valid criticisms of the genre for sure. But I like to really see the positive in it and climb up inside the machine, so to speak, and try to create good with that art form or with that medium.

JEN:          So, you touched on representation, so I’m going to detour a little bit and go there for a minute. We talk a lot here, in the den, about the importance of representation in media. Because we have these kids that need to see themselves, right? You do an amazing job of representing in multiple ways. And we’ll talk about some of those ways later. Media in general seems to be getting a little bit more inclusive, better at representing the diversity of humanity. In the world of casting, what do those conversations sound like? Is it going to stick around this realistic representation?

JEFFREY: Yeah. That’s a good question. You know, I think the people who are the big decision makers like the top executives, the people who have all the money, the people who have all the power, they, for the most part, are open to including things that they might not have instinctually included in the past. And they know that society is moving in a direction that is more inclusive, that is more aware. And whether you agree or disagree with something, there’s room for everyone in this world. You don’t have to personally be involved with it. But there is going to be a TV show about it because there is an audience for it. there is a market for it. Whatever that topic is, both sides of the fence, there’s a market and an audience for it. So they want to include those voices and identities in a way that, they want to be responsible. They’re not always. But that becomes, then, the job of the people who are casting, right? The casting producers, the people who are the field producers when things are being filmed. To elicit the content from the people who are sharing their stories, who are sharing their life and experiences and identities with us. So that was we can capture the correct essence on camera.

 So that way, in the final edit, in the final product, we’re able to show some of those nooks and crannies of the world that aren’t always represented. And I do think, as time goes on, we get more and more and more of that. And we are in the best place we’ve ever been in entertainment with that. Is there room to grow with that? Always. Is there room to do it better? Absolutely. But I do think, since Real World 1992 to now, we have grown leaps and bounds of inclusion and identities and being very truthful and respectful about them in the process.

JEN:          So, once you found this passion for reality TV, you were able to make it into a career, right? But you started in the world of special education first. So, can you tell us how this trajectory worked, especially for anyone who might have a kid who thinks your current role is a dream job.

JEFFREY: Sure. When I started in special education as a paraeducator for a state facility, my mom had worked at this place since she was 18 years old. And her mom before her had worked there since she was 18 years old. So it was kind of like a family dynasty of it was just a natural instinct of we were just able to talk to people with different abilities in a very realistic, human way. We don’t down talk to them. We talk to them just like you would your best friend or someone else that you know. And, in the process of doing that, you become a magnet to them for them to speak or live their life in a more authentic way. When you’re giving them authenticity in a real way, they kind of blossom and grow and light up. And their spark becomes a little bit brighter as they navigate their lives, just because you’re talking to them as an equal, right? 

And so that talent and that natural ability in me and also my mom and grandmother. But, in me. transferred immediately into the world of casting. I also moved to New York in between all of this and I worked at Starbucks for a hundred years. And I did a lot of stuff between special education and casting. But when I did start working in casting, it’s the give of gab, right? When you have a short amount of time to immediately connect to somebody whether it’s on the phone, over zoom, in person, at a coffee shop. You have to come off very authentic and caring so that way they’re willing to share their story with you and their spark lights up and they feel like this is something I can do. Every once in a while in the world of casting, I have people ask me, “Do you really think I’m interesting enough? Do you really think my story matters?” That’s a thing that comes up every once in a while. And my answer to them always is, “I wouldn’t be talking to you if I didn’t think that was the case.” Also, I do firmly believe this, everyone has a story to share. Everyone's story matters. Is it the right fit for that television show in that moment? Maybe not. But I do think every person whether you want to be on TV or not has something in them that’s important to share. And I think connecting to that was something that I honed very early into special education.

JEN:          So I have no experience in this realm. I would think that when someone had “Emmy Winner” next to their name, a career, like the future ticket would be golden. I follow you on social media. The world of entertainment is clearly a little more tumultuous. Those of us who see it all as just wildly glamorous might be wrong. So, can you  share with us the more vulnerable or scary parts of this career?

JEFFREY: Absolutely.

JEN:          But not freakin’ very easy.

JEFFREY: No. I’ll tell youj, it’s not for the light of heart. If any of your parents or grown ups out there who have kids that want to go into this field, prepare them. Say, “Hey it’s going to be tough. You’re not going to have money all the time. You might not have a place to live all the time.” It has to be a passion that you do not see yourself doing anything else. If you cannot see yourself doing anything else, then keep doing it. And be good at it and be amazing. But if you have something that’s also pretty cool and more stable, then definitely go for it. Here’s the thing, you know, it’s funny you asked this. And the timing of this is very interesting because we just passed my one-year anniversary of winning an Emmy, just like two days ago. And that Emmy was such a fun experience. I got to bring my mom. Ever since I was in grade school I would say, “Hey, if I’m ever at the Oscars or the Emmys, I’m bringing you as my date.” And my mom, of course, I didn’t have anyone else that I would’ve rather brought. And so, yes, I brought my mom as my date to the Emmys. And we had a great time and it was a magical, sparkly, wonderful, glitter evening. And in less than a year, because of everything going on in Hollywood, which for those of you who don’t know, there’s been a writers strike going on since the beginning of this year. It kind of shut down everything in terms of green-lighting projects both on the scripted and unscripted side.

JEN:          Well, even before that you were hit in COVID during some of this.

 JEFFREY: Yeah. Well, so before the Emmy was the COVID of it all. When I was casing, “We’re Here.” We used to, as you know, we would come and visit the cities ahead of time, Twin Falls being one of the ones we got to loop in on that in Season One was COVID free. So we got to go and visit. But, as COVID shut us down, we had to think of different ways to approach people and to get the casting material that we needed. So that kind of cut out a lot of experience in that. But, going into this year – Nose Dive, at Christmas time of all projects across Hollywood. Literally, everyone I know, writers, actors, producers, make-up people, hair people, cafeteria workers, literally everybody became jobless. 

I instantly had to give up my apartment. I stayed, temporarily, with an ex in New York with my mom here in Southern California, until I finally got this job in property management which I’ve been working in a couple of months. Which is way below my pay grade, but it gives me 40% off rent, which kept me not homeless this year. So I’m kind of just in the middle of a survival year in Hollywood where everyone in Los Angeles is feeling it. Everyone in Los Angeles is grumpy. We’re upset. We’re angry. We cry on the spot. Literally, sometimes I walk into a grocery store and it’s just full of entertainment zombies. It’s people who don’t know what direction to do next. Should we give up our passion in exchange for stability? And even so, that stability doesn’t look very stable anymore. Because, let’s be honest, in the world of COVID era, we’re not done with the pandemic by any means you guys. News flash. 

Everyone has lost their minds. Everyone in every industry, everywhere, there’s red tape, there’s road blocks. I’ll get to it tomorrow. I’ll get to it next week. So and so is out of the office. I don’t have an answer. Put it in an email. Let’s look at it later. Nothing’s getting done, right? It is ridiculous. So, there’s a lot of angst and a lot of worry and a lot of real worry in the world in general. But specifically in entertainment right now, they’re wrestling with how to deal with artificial intelligence, how to pay people more money that they desire. The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. What happens when we crunch our entire society into that and what are the actions when that happens? Even though it’s an entertainment industry issue right now, this strike is something everyone in every industry across the world should be worried about. So that’s my current moment in entertainment. I don’t know when I’ll have a new entertainment job. There are none right now.

JEN:          So I actually appreciate that. Because, like I said, for some of us it’s easy to look, even at the strike, and imagine the people that we can name, those A list celebrities and lose our compassion or our empathy for that. But those aren’t the people who are impacted. There’s this entire world of people who are impacted by these things. I’m hoping we can shift from your career for a minute and talk about one of my favorite things about you as a person. You’re a large guy. You’re tall and large and you’re existing in the entertainment world and in the queer community which doesn’t seem to tolerate a lot of variation in body shape. Simultaneously, you’ve seemed to have absorbed no fat-phobia internally. How did you come to this strong, confident position of just being neutral, really about weight?

JEFFREY: That’s a really great question. One of the audience members when I was live taping the reality show, “The Glass House '', which is like twelve years ago now. One of the questions was exactly that. Where do you get your confident sense of self in your large body? And we can just go ahead and call it fat. I’m an absolute fat person. And I use the word fat because it’s not a negative word. It’s only negative if we make it negative, right? So I, for many years, was always like “Oh, sure. I’m a fat guy. But I have a very confident, vibrant personality too.” And I know what I do feel good about. There are things I find sexy and attractive about myself. So I don’t know where that comes from, ‘cause Lord knows, I grew up in a world of Calvin Klein models and Marky Mark underwear ads, and Kate Moss being super thin, and all the Holister and all those 90s ads were just so, thin, thin, thin and abs, abs, abs. And I didn’t have either of those. And in the entertainment world, there is a bar of attractiveness. 

And in the gay world, there is a bar of, “Oh, no. You can’t be fat.” I do think we’re cycling out of those in both of those arenas though. I do think, as body positivity sweeps the nation and the world, everything from the Dove soap ads with women in their underwear to Lizzo rocking the free world all over the place. There is a lot of fat positive people that are like, “Hey, this is what it’s all about. This is what it is.” 

Here’s one of the big shifts for me is when I lived in New York, primarily my sexual escapades were with other big dudes. And it was just because I kind of assumed big people only sleep with big people. And as I moved to California, where there’s much more of a wild, open, body positivity movement, you never know who’s  going to be attracted to you. You really have no idea who’s attracted to a fat person these days. You have no idea. There’s so many different types of people that are attracted to fat people, that as long as you’re confident in your skin about who you are, the people who are attracted to you are going to find you because you’re glowing inside and they’re attracted to that glow.

 So I think my tip to other people who might not be so confident in themselves is to find, start with one thing that you think is attractive about yourself. Then make it two things. Then, what’s good about your personality? Why would someone be attracted to you? What are those things? There are things to start off of and then they’ll grow and build from there. If I listed all my things now, I’d sound like a conceited jerk face. But I’m also a 46-year-old person who’s been fat my entire life. And I have three amazing ex boyfriends in my life and one amazing current boyfriend that have all been attracted to me. So I don’t have any kind of self oppression about it. But it doesn’t mean that it’s bad if someone does. It just means there’s a way out of it and it’s all in the way you think about yourself.

JEN:          I love the way that you spread this. Not a lot verbally, you don’t say a lot about it. You just exist as this confident, positive person. And then you comment about  activities I love. You’re making a difference, I think, in some difficult – like you said queer spaces and entertainment spaces, those are some difficult spaces to exist in. Kind of on this topic, there were a couple of terms that I kept hearing and I’m hoping you’ll elaborate on those and the context and tell me they’re pejorative or complementary or neutral kinds of things. So the first one is the word, bear. Tell us all, tell our listeners, what is a bear?

JEFFREY: Sure. So, just simply put in the gay, queer community, a bear is someone who is usually a thick, maybe chubby, or built. Just a thick, kind of hairy, traditionally, usually masculine leaning kind of guy that likes other rough and tumble sort of guys. Think lumberjacks. Think football players. That’s just kind of the beginning idea of a bear in the bear world. Now, as society has progressed, so has the bear community. And that is now definitely more inclusive of other racial identities, other gender identities. There’s lots of trans men in the bear world these days. Lots of open support for that as well. Also, some work can be done still, too. But, again, we’re at the best place with stuff like that ever in our time here on this planet. 

But a bear is just basically just guys who sleep with other guys who like to pal around, go to happy hour together, lots of comradery. Sometimes there’s a rugby team involved. Sometimes it’s just the aesthetic is, we don’t mind our chubby bodies out on the beach, so let's wear a speedo, right? It’s a lot of kids who grew up as like the fat kid who weren’t feeling good about it back in the day, but now that we’ve all kind of come into our own, we’re confident in our skin, we like to be around other guys that are also confident in our skin and are also of size.  And then there's a world of chasers where there’s people – and that’s another buzz word – but chasers are these guys that are not of that size, that appreciate and want to be with guys of that size. And they kind of plug into the same community, too, of hey I’m a bear chaser. I’m a chubby chaser. I like to be in this community because everyone’s friendly and open and we’re all very fluid about accepting our bodies. And let’s go for it. Let’s have a good time while we’re on this planet.

JEN:          So my second term was actually, Chubby Chaser, so you kind of put it right in there. So that’s not an insult or a negative. Like if you say, “He’s totally a Chubby Chaser.” That’s not an insult.

JEFFREY; I mean, you could say it as an insult if that was your intent. But I think generally speaking, it’s not batted an eye, at least in my circle. There’s some people, I know one chaser person specifically who’s like, “I don’t really love the word, Chaser, but it is true.” But that’s just a person-to-person type of preference. But generally speaking, no, chubby chaser is like a positive thing especially if you’re the chubby person being chased. Here’s the thing, as confident as I am, you do kind of have to hit me upside the head if you're into me. I’m going to let you make the first move. I need someone who’s not shy about penetrating this type of aura, this energy, this dynamic thing that I have naturally. I want someone who’s drawn to it and wants to pierce through that. So I do appreciate someone who chases me versus me putting it out there and then who knows what their thing is. So not a pejorative at all.

JEN:          That’s awesome. In addition to body positivity, one of the reasons I think it would be wise for all adults to follow you on social media is that you are a pure example of queer joy. Simultaneously, you don’t represent some weird sort of toxic positivity. You’re real and you're raw, which I like. You’re very vulnerable with the stuff that’s hard. But you also embrace and celebrate your life as a gay man, like being gay is the best gift you every could’ve been given sort of an energy all the time. And I think we all need to see more examples of that in the world. Life hasn’t been a piece of cake. How do you maintain this fun, charming, joyful personality, even when things are kind of not going well? You still have this queer joy.

JEFFREY: You know, you’re going to make my cry. That’s actually, I just asked myself that the other day, honestly. I’m going to cry and laugh at the same time. I don’t know. I don’t know where it comes from. I really think that there is a – first of all, in terms of the queer joy and being excited to be a gay person, I think that there is an immediate community around people who come out of the closet. And you might not have the community that you did before that. But there are so many people who are ready to embrace you and be excited about who you are. And I like being that person for other people. I like being that person on the other side of something difficult or on the other side of having come out or whatever and being like, “Hey, welcome to the party. Hey, welcome to the club. This is all the fun stuff we do. These are the vacations we all go on. These are the fun bars that we go to. This is the fun club night. This is the fun game night, etc.” And I just think that that’s important to maintain as a queer identity. Is there is people there. And if you’re listening to this and you’re like, “I don’t know. I’m scared. Maybe I won’t be accepted.” You might not be by the people who are around you. You might not be. But there’s so many people on the other side of that who are going to make you feel better about yourself. So that is a core value of mine just in terms of queerness. 

But in terms of my internal spark, I don’t know. There are some days that are really so hard, just existing on this planet and making ends meat in a world of uncertainty. Yesterday, I had a fourth day in a row where I was left alone at this job. And I’m not fully trained, I don’t know everything at this job. It really has become, sit at a desk and let everyone yell at you about thing you don’t know the answers to. And I started having chest pains. I started having pains in my chest the last few weeks and it go ta little bit worse over this weekend. And I started to get dizzy. And I didn’t have anyone. There is no manager here. My regional manager is not plugged into us. My other person that I work with called out sick. I had endured four hours of people yelling at you for literally all the reasons in the world. And I clocked out and I went the emergency room yesterday because I felt my blood pressure was spiking.I didn’t know what was wrong with me. I also have some long COVID things going on. But I really, I broke down yesterday. And I was like, “I don’t know what I’m going to do to get through.” 

What does bring me joy in this moment is knowing that I’m awesome and that this is only temporary. Everything bad is only temporary. Also, everything good is only temporary. There’s a ying and a yang to that. There’s a give and a take. It’s like that Disney “Inside Out”. You can’t have happiness without the sadness. That was the big lesson to everyone in that movie. And I just think this is a year of sadness for me personally, and a lot of people. We are really in a great depression of modern times. We are in, society isn’t in the middle of collapsing, we have collapsed. We are just in the middle of rebuilding is what we’re doing right now. And some people aren’t making it to the other side of that. It’s going to be too tough for some people. And I know I’m tough enough to make it through to the other side of that especially with the guy I’m seeing right now. My boyfriend is amazing. We have a pure amazing love. It surprises us every day. We are both shocked on a daily basis about how much love and light and happiness we bring to each other just by being in the same room. So that is something that is getting me through right now. I can’t believe I’m crying on a podcast.

JEN:          Our listening audience is a lot of people who appreciate that because they’re experiencing some tears and some adjustment also. So we love the tears. We’re with you.

JEFFREY: Well, they come very easily for me.

JEN:          Definitely, same. I’m going to jump back to your career a little bit but it’s not so much chronological. You have a credential list that is a mile long of different projects and show that you’ve worked with. Starting with talent wrangling which I think is the most interesting job title ever. But, two of my personal favorites that you worked with, you did the primary casting for the Emmy Award-winning show, “We’re Here.” and then you actually won an Emmy yourself for your casting of “Love on the Spectrum”. Can you tell us what is the secret sauce that makes these two shows so particularly amazing.

JEFFREY: That’s a good question because they are my two favorite shows I worked on. Even though “The Real World” was a life-long dream of mine to work on which was third best. But I think both “We’re Here” and “Love on the Spectrum” have such a drive to show stories that haven’t been on TV since TV started .They have a pure motivation to show and help communities that aren’t always in the spotlight. With “We’re here”. It’s queer folks in smaller towns, conservative spaces who don’t always get shown the love of their existence, who have to live life in an in-between sometimes that because of the society that’s around them isn’t equal to places like I’m used to living like New York and LA. I mean, the gays have those cities down, right? We’re in charge over here. We, as big-city gays don’t always get to understand the feeling of having to hide yourself a little bit, making sure you’re safe around the right people who you can show yourself to. 

Those are things that are constant things that queer people think about in other spaces. And to bring their stories and their experiences to light on screen, empowers them. It empowers their communities. It empowers their allies. It empowers the people who want to support them. And it really shows the haters that they really are in the minority. They might be really loud. They might be just as loud as us, but their numbers are small. Their numbers are not as big as the people who are accepting. And with “Love on the Spectrum”, I mean, just the universal spirit of love is something that everyone can identify with. Everyone wants to be in love. Everyone wants to find love. Everyone, if they’ve experienced it once, maybe they want to find it again. If they haven’t experienced love yet, they want to know what it’s like. 

There’s songs written about love. There’s movies made for love. There’s plays, musicals, everything. Love is in everyone’s hearts whether you’re experienced it or not. And to watch people who have a very pure-hearted intention, a very real, grounded, authentic truth in finding love, as someone who they really don’t have expectations on how to love. They love unconditionally. People with disabilities, people who are differently abled, people who just have a chromosome different here or there, they have a unique superhero power to love unconditionally. And to watch them navigate this earth trying to find each other to explore that unconditional love, is really at the heart of what we should be doing ourselves. I’m going to cry all over again.

JEN:          There’s such a positive spin to both of those shows. I think the reason I’m attracted to both of them, from my perspective, they take a demographic that is wildly misunderstood. You came to my house to cast for “We’re here.” And you were so compassionate in listening to the stories of some of those people who were really struggling to find themselves and find space in this small town. And people on the autism spectrum, wildly misunderstood. And these shows kind of normalized the individuals. Like these people are struggling and they have super powers. And let’s take a peak at both of them. I watch “Love on the Spectrum '' and think we all need to watch the autistic people. They’re the ones doing it right. The rest of us are doing it wrong with all these silly games. And all this stuff we can learn is amazing. So when you’re casting both of these shows, you’re looking, obviously not to exploit communities that are already marginalized and misunderstood. What are you looking for when you’re casting?

JEFFREY: First and foremost, I’m looking for someone who just pierces on camera. You can’t have a lot of ums, or ahs, or take too much time in thinking. This is just some simple, just the mechanics of someone on screen, right? That’s got to be first and foremost. Someone who has an opinion, a strong point of view. Someone who is able to clearly communicate that strong point of view or opinion and to show us their reasons why that exists, to show us what is good about something, what is bad about something, what’s difficult for you in those moments. And to be able to kind of shed any barrier and share themselves with us. Those are the big main things. I also look for stories. I’m like an encyclopedia of reality TV, having grown up with it.

JEN:          Plus 30 years of working in it.

JEFFREY: Totally. And if there's a story I haven’t seen on TV before, I want that story on my show. If there’s something unique or a curveball or a certain narrative that I have not seen television explore, I want to be the first one to put it on. And I think both of those shows are things I’ve been able to succeed in doing that with.

JEN:          Very much so. Your mom raised you, right? She was not restrictive. She was very supportive. But then, as you reach adulthood, and you’re in these super inclusive spaces, you’ve also put yourself into some situations with things that are not quite. So, for example, when you were in “The Glass House” we mentioned in your introduction that there’s this awesome scene people should go find where you’re having a conversation with a Mormon mom about the ideas of gay marriage. And this was 15 years ago, 12 years ago?

JEFFREY: Twelve now, I think. It was summer of 2012 to frame it for you. It was the election summer of that year. So it was a big election. Prop 8 was on the table. It was a big thing.

JEN:          That does give some perspective. And she is very nice while simultaneously saying some not-very-nice things. And you're not happy about it. And you’re very clear. But somehow, you still come off looking super nice even though you’re not feeling very nice. And then you dated a boy who comes from this super conservative background in the LDS church also. So, you’re like, “Oh no. It’s the Mormon’s again.”

JEFFREY: I’ll tell you, Mormons have come up in my life a lot. Strating with my first year in college,there was some Mormon missionaries on campus. And, honestly, and I just thought they were adorable. So I was, “Sure I’ll come to your bible study on campus in the quad or whatever.” And then they invited to me in bible study. And next thing you know I was going to church a couple times to just check it out. And then I faded away. But, because of that, Mormons have come up in my life here or there, literally, still to this day. At one point I had locked myself outside of my house, inside my backyard. And there was Mormon missionaries walking by. And I screamed, “Elders. Elders.” And they whipped there heads reallyl quick. I go, “I’m so sorry. I know this seems crazy. My front door is unlocked. I’ve locked myself in my patio. Could you come rescue me?” Literally little things like that have come out my whole life. 

And then, when I got off the show, which was for about six months after the show, I had all kinds of Mormon stuff online. People wanted ot be my friend. People wanted to tell me to F off. Literally, and it was always a Mormon. I would get stopped at DisneyLand. I would get stopped at a hotel, at a restaurant, and I always knew it was coming. They’d be like, “Hey, you look kind of familiar. Is your name Jeffrey.”  “Yes, it is. Hi.” “Oh, my gosh. We saw you on The Glass House I just wanted to say we just thought you were so funny and so charming. “ And usually four minutes into the conversation they’re like, “We’re LDS.” And I’m like, “I know, you always are. You always are. You guys who want to stop me in the streets always are.” Theyr’e like, “We just love you so much.” I go, my response was always the same, “Thank you so much for the support. I’m glad you enjoyed it. It was very entertaining. It was a fun ride.” 

And it usually would be can we follow you on Facebook or can we find you on Facebook. Facebook was still all the rage, right? And my answer was a very polite, “No, Thank you,” which it was with Andrea who was the mom on the show. After the show, she and her family really wanted to be my friend. They wanted me to come over for dinner. They wanted me to come meet the rest of their family. And I said, “I don’t feel that we can do that. I don’t think there’s a friendship here. I think we had an experience. I think we shared ourselves to each other. I think by the end of summer, we became friendly and I think it was a good experience for both of us to have.” But if you still haven’t changed your belief structure in saying I can’t express my God-given love, without you voting against it in society, that’s not something a friend would do. You don’t get to be my friend. 

And if God doesn’t make mistakes, then God made me gay. So, what’s the buzz, honey? What’s the thing? So a lot of those interactions really became kind of like they walked away sort of bummed. And I didn’t mind it. I think it was a good message to continuously share with some folks who have the best of intentions. I’ll tell you, the LDS folks, being nice is like a superhero weapon. It’s a defense shield. It's a sword. It’s everything all in one. It’s like a little pocket knife, switchblade, tool of all kinds. And it’s very impenetrable. And I, in the nicest way back, would say we’re not friends but thank you for your support. And I hope someday you can see why your current belief structure is destroying families. Specifically yours. 

I was in the situation where I dated this guy for two-plus years. I had a lot of upfront center seating to his family dynamics. And I can’t imagine a family, a religion that is so important on boosting family and the importance of family. But, when someone in your family is LGBTQ, the immediate arms-distance that happens, the immediate othering, the immediate distancing that goes on is so damaging. I would see it from my boyfriend at the time. Someone who appreciated and loved his family  so much, and wanted nothing more than to be with all of his brothers and sisters and family all under the same roof having ambrosia salad at Thanksgiving and he was othered constantly. And they all have different tactics in doing it. All of them were a different scale of one to ten of how rude they were about it. But they all had the same mission which is you’re not one of us and you’re not with us and it makes us feel weird. And even though you invited your very large, very fat, very gay boyfriend over for Thanksgiving, we’re going to talk around him like he’s invisible in the living room, which is fascinating. Can you imagine trying to treat me invisible for like three hours over the course of a dinner. It was amazing. The dynamics of that were just so insane. But I just really think it is very sad, especially with Mormon children who want nothing more than to be part of their families, to continue to be distanced. It’s very upsetting and I lived through it. I saw the damages up close.

JEN:          So this makes connections in my brain to, because like I said, I follow you on social media. You are pretty vocal about your ideas. Like, if you’re voting to hurt me, you don’t support me. It’s not both. You can’t vote for my oppression and simultaneously think we’re besties. It’s not happening. And you’re pretty vocal about that which I also try to be. So that’s probably why I appreciate it. And all of the things you just said about Mormonism and Mormon families, we hear over and over and over again from conservative families at large and religious families. So, before I let you go, can I ask one more question?

JEFFREY: Yes, of course.

JEN:          Do you have advice for these conservative parents who have questions about the potential of their child’s future? Or, from the other side, what would you tell these parents whose kid has just come out and their thinking like your brother “Oh, I didn’t even know that was a thing.” What kind of advice do you have for them?

JEFFREY: Well, I think the first instinct of any parent with a queer, coming-out child, and that’s conservative or liberal or inbetween, is I’m afraid for them that life is going to be more difficult. I don’t want this for my child because it’s going to be a harder road for them in life. And that’s true. But what’s going to make it harder, is your distancing or unacceptance of it. And I know my mom is the nicest most user-friendly, liberal person. She’s friends with so many non-liberals in her little circle of the world. She’s like the token of all of them, right? And she had the same thought. I don’t want my son to be gay, not because it’s bad but because it’s going to be harder. But she very thoughtful and mindfully made the acceptance very clear. She inserted herself into my circle of friends who, to me are my family throughout the years of going to New York and stuff. And she absorbed herself into my circle to all my friends. All my close friends consider my mom part of their family because she is so mindful and thoughtful about making that extra step, putting in that extra effort, and being so sincere in her love and acceptance. 

So I think, when conservative people struggle with that, I think they really have to ask themselves, “What is your inner fight about? Why are you fighting about it? What is it you’re tussling with? What is it your wrestling with?” Is it the Bible? Is it your other friends and peers, parental peers around you that don’t have queer children? Is it pressures from them? What might it look like from the outside in? What did you do wrong?” There’s nothing wrong about it. It’s just a way people have been wired and I am someone who does believe in an almighty power, a creature, whatever you want to call it, God, etc. But I do think that the Bible is something that has been written and passed down through the hands of corrupt men, and some women probably, but definitely men throughout hundreds of years to use it as a tool to keep people afraid and in place with a power structure. 

And you have to examine, do you want that poison to continue in the love for your child. If you’re okay with that, go ahead and lose your kid. Because, guess what, like I referenced before, there’s a whole lot of people out there who’s ready to be their family that’s not blood related to them and they’re going to find that acceptance and that familial spirit in other people. I sure would hate to have to lose out on that if that’s not you. I use my own dad as an example, who’s not particularly crazy conservative. He’s not particularly crazy anti-gay, but he’s a little bit of both of those things. And, I’ll tell you now, he’s the one missing out. I’m not. He’s the one that’s on an island with two other people in his life and that’s it and no one else really gives a shit. Oh. sorry.  But I’m the one that’s surrounded by love. And I’m the one that’s surrounded by countless people who adore me for who I am. He’s the one missing out. It’s not the other way around. So make sure you’re willing to risk and lose that if that’s something you really want to hold your guns to, or what’s the phrase? Stick to your guns to.

JEN:          That doesn’t sound like a particularly natural phrase for you.

JEFFREY: No. No. I’m all for you can own guns, I don’t want any.

JEN:          Just the phrase. You don’t seem like a “boot straps”, “gun” phrase using guy.

JEFFREY: No. Its’ a lot of masculine talk. It’s like when someone fist bumps you and I get weird sometimes when people call me by my lsat name because back when I had to play sports it was like, “Get your head in the game, Marx. Get your head in the game.” Just a lot of that stuff is very, fatherly, masculine stuff.

JEN:          It seems like you would’ve been hunted for football.

JEFFREY: Oh, I was in high school. The first two, freshman and sophomore year in highschool. They came up to me, the coaches themselves. “Hey. Have you ever thought about playing football?” “Yeah I have. It’s a no. It’s a no from me. Thank you.”

JEN:          Thought about it a lot and it’s always been in a bad way.

JEFREY:    Now I’ve got to go do the “Wizard of Oz” over here. I’ll talk to you later.

JEN:          How tall are you? Is that a weird question?

JEFFREY: No. I’m 6’4 and 360.

JEN:          I can just see the salivating football coaches seeing you entering.

JEFFREY: Yeah. I just can’t bash a lot of bodies together, a lot of hard hitting, a lot of bruising, a lot of catching of a ball. This is not the field that I do those things.

JEN:          I want to thank you for visiting with me today and sharing just some of the phenomenal-ness that is Jeffrey Marx. It’s so intriguing to get a glimpse into the lives of magnetic people like yourself. So, thank you so much.

JEFFREY: Thank you for having me. This was really fun. I needed the cry, apparently. So I was glad to do it.

JEN:          Awesome. Thank you Jeff. Thanks so much for joining us here in the den. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with your friends. We’d also love it if you could take a minute to leave us a positive rating and review on whatever platform you’re listening to us on. Good reviews make us more visible and help us reach more folks who could benefit from listening. But, review or not, we’re glad you’re here. For more information on Mama Dragons and the podcast, you can visit our website at mamdragons.org or follow us on Instagram or Facebook. And if you’d like to help Mama Dragons in our mission to support, educate, and empower the parents of LGBTQ children, donate at mamadragons.org or click the donate link in the show notes.