Unpacking Conversion Therapy

Conversion therapy, also referred to as reparative therapy, attempts to change a person’s sexual orientation or gender identity and is not a legitimate form of therapy. Conversion therapy has been denounced by all major medical organizations, but continues to exist and cause harm to LGBTQ people throughout the world. In this episode of In the Den, Jen talks with Dr. Matt Salmon, a psychiatrist and author, about his experiences as a victim of conversion therapy as well as the broader impact of conversion therapy on queer people today.

Special Guest: Matt Salmon

Dr. Matt R. Salmon is a psychiatrist based in Washington, DC, specializing in child, adolescent, and adult mental health and a Master of Health and Public Interest. Matt is the manager of psychiatry at Whitman Walker Health and primarily treats LGBTQ+ young people who have been marginalized by structural bias. Matt's work is deeply influenced by lived experience, which includes growing up queer and neurodiverse in a Mormon household with a Republican congressman dad and undergoing conversion 'therapy' as a teen.

Matt is preparing to publish a book titled Pride & Prejudice: Healing Division in the Modern Family, which serves as both a memoir and a critique of societal norms that often harm LGBTQ+ individuals, especially within religious communities. In it, Matt uses personal and professional experience to advocate for embracing diversity and challenging our own biases so we can heal the divisions that harm us all. The book is set for publication in Spring 2024 and can be pre-ordered at: https://matt-salmon.presale.manuscripts.com.

Links from the show:

Preorder Matt’s book here: https://matt-salmon.presale.manuscripts.com.

Find Matt on IG: https://www.instagram.com/lovemattrs/ 

Family Acceptance Project: https://familyproject.sfsu.edu/ 

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Transcript

JEN:   Hello and welcome. You are listening to In the Den with Mama Dragons. I’m your host, Jen. This podcast was created out of our desire to walk and talk with you through this journey of raising happy, healthy, and productive LGBTQ humans. We are so happy that you’re here with us.

Welcome back to our listeners.  I am so honored each week that so many continue to share this journey with us.  I feel hopeful that as this information spreads, more families will be protected when they learn about having LGBTQIAP+ loved ones. For many among us, when a child comes out, we make mistakes based on the misconceptions we have absorbed from our own backgrounds and upbringing.  Some might even try to use outdated concepts like “tough love” to encourage a child to become straight or cisgender.  Or at least to conform to heteronormative behaviors.  Some might even enlist professional help to do the same.  Such actions cause harm.  Including deep rifts in family relationships.

 I believe that parents overwhelmingly love their children and want to do what’s best for them.  So when these things are attempted, I believe it is motivated by love and good intentions.  But it is actually harmful.  We want to make sure people have an understanding of what they are doing in order to help them avoid this harm. Today, we have a special guest that is going to share portions of his personal journey, including his experience as a victim of conversion therapy, and also his knowledge about all these things as a practicing psychiatrist. 

Dr. Matt R. Salmon is a psychiatrist based in Washington, DC, specializing in child, adolescent, and adult mental health, and is Master of Health and Public Interest. Matt is the Manager of Psychiatry at Whitman Walker Health and primarily treats LGBTQ+ young people who have been marginalized by structural bias. Matt's work is deeply influenced by lived experience, which includes growing up queer and neurodiverse in a Mormon household with a Republican congressman dad and includes undergoing conversion 'therapy' as a teen.

Matt is preparing to publish a book titled Pride & Prejudice: Healing Division in the Modern Family which serves as both a memoir and a critique of societal norms that often harm LGBTQ+ individuals, especially within religious communities. The book will be available in Spring of 2024 and we will include a link to order it in the show notes, so check those show notes. Welcome Matt!  Thanks for joining us In the Den.

MATT: Thank you so much. It’s great to be here. I’m really excited about today. 

JEN: I want to start by walking through the roots of your personal journey a little bit.  Tell us about your background and what was it like for you in your younger years? 

MATT: I was born and raised in Mesa, Arizona. I would say I was always a more sensitive kid. I had a lot of anxieties. And it turns out I was the only one with OCD and I’m autistic and I have ADHD. And all of those things went unnoticed, but contributed to a lot of the turmoil that I dealt with. Especially because the OCD was the religious type. Growing up, everything seemed pretty good. I was definitely a Mama’s boy. I was always like her buddy running errands with her, doing things like that. And we had a really great relationship. And I would say my family, we were all pretty tight. My dad was, like you said, a Republican congressman. He was either a politician or lobbying, pretty much up until last year, really. And that added an extra layer because he was gone a lot of the time. As he decided that he wanted us to stay in the district and continue living at home, he didn’t want to uproot us. He would fly to DC at the beginning of the week and then fly back home at the end of the week. During the weekdays, my mom would get us all up around 6:00 a.m. and we would gather around the speakerphone where we would read scriptures with my dad and have a family prayer every morning and talk about our plans for the day. 

It was around nine years old that I first realized that I was gay. We were on a family beach trip. And I just remember seeing this guy who was just so beautiful. It was this guy who was playing with his two little boys. And, at the time, I didn’t really know what I was experiencing. I was just drawn to him. And I kind of convinced myself, I guess, that what I wanted was to be a dad like him. But ultimately, looking back, I realized that I wanted a partner who would be a dad like him. It wasn’t that long later that I had to accept the fact that it was him that I wanted, not to be like him. My family had also moved earlier that summer. And I guess the only reason I bring that up is because I’d never been bullied before I moved to this area. And right away, this was when I was in fourth grade, it didn’t take long for me to start being bullied there. And they would bully me by calling me gay, faggot, sissy, those kinds of things. And it was from them calling me these things that I ultimately was able to put a word to what I had experienced or what I was feeling. 

Because of the experience, not only was I made aware of what it was, I was made very aware that it wasn’t okay, or that other people didn’t think it was okay. I held onto that for a while. And, eventually, it was too much to hold by myself. Part of my OCD, and I mentioned it being religious type, part of it was that I would have a lot of these intrusive thoughts that I had no control over that would pop into my head. And so the reflex I had was, I felt compelled to confess every impure thought that I had because I thought that I would go to Hell if I didn’t. It was hard for me to hold in something like that because I generally was confessing everything. To the point where my mom would get overwhelmed because I would confess everything to her to the point where she finally told me to stop when I confessed to her when I had sexual thoughts about Jesus. And there were all these pieces of art hanging up around the house of him barely clothed and he’s, like, ripped and muscular. I don’t know, what do you expect? When I was old enough that I had discovered masturbation, and that was not okay. I was just dealing with so much inner turmoil that led to putting more pictures of Jesus in my room to try to deter me from being impure and things like that, which only made it worse. 

But what I’m saying is, that holding this secret inside when I was so used to confessing everything. It was so hard. Eventually, I felt like it had to come out. And so I told my mom when I was 14. I told her that I was attracted to guys. I was 14 years old and it was Christmas night. I was fully expecting that she was going to be disgusted and I was prepared to be told I wasn’t part of the family anymore, things like that because those were the types of things I heard. I was relieved that she was really calm and collected, didn’t seem upset by it at all. But she also just didn’t think it was a big thing. She just told me that it was a phase and I’d grow out of it. 

JEN: Did you believe her?

MATT: I wanted to. Yeah. But deep down, I knew that it had gone on for five years. Five years is not a phase. So she wasn’t aware of all of that. I wanted to believe that what she was saying was true. So we just left it at that. And it wasn’t until a year later that my dad, he was meeting with me and checking in with me and just asked all the right questions. And, as somebody who just wasn’t capable of lying, I answered them all truthfully. 

JEN: Had your mom said anything to him about this, was he sort of prepared? 

MATT: No. What’s wild was, down the road, when I had recalled the time when I was 14 and told my mom. My sister told me later that my mom leaned over to her and said that she didn’t even remember. She had totally written it off as a phase, I guess, that it didn’t ever register as an important detail or she was just so in denial. I don’t know. But she didn’t remember the situation. 

JEN: How many kids were in your family? 

MATT: So I’m one of four.

JEN: And are you at the top or the bottom? 

MATT: I’m the baby. People always say I’m the baby and I always counter with, I’m the youngest but I wasn’t the baby. 

JEN: But, by kid four, as a Mom, I can see where you’re like, “Things come and go. It’s too big to think about that right now. We’re going to just ignore it.”

MATT: Yeah. And my mom is the type where she just wants a simple life, having blinders on limits all of the different choices she has to think about. And so it just makes it easier if it’s just one or the other. It’s this way or the highway. And so this is the way. And that works for her. 

JEN: So you tell your dad. Now, you’re 15? 

MATT: Yes.

JEN: And I’m guessing it’s a little different than when you told mom. 

MATT: Yes. So as someone who I felt like I was at risk of burning in Hell just for having thoughts and attractions. And so he told me something that was a relief for me. And that was that there's nothing wrong with having the attractions, the feelings, the thoughts. None of that is sin. It’s okay for you to have these kinds of thoughts and feelings. But it’s not okay for you to act on them. And so, basically, he was saying you can be gay, you just can’t do gay stuff. For me, that was a relief because I hadn't done gay stuff. So I was like, I guess I’m in the clear as long as I don’t. I can tell you that, while for me at the time, that response helped. Professionally, I can tell you that a response like that is not the ideal, we should say.  Essentially, it told me that I need to keep suppressing who I was. And so I did that. I would date girls. Law of chastity worked really well for a closeted gay boy in Mormonism because if I can just go out with girls and I’m not supposed to be steady with any of them, which in Mormonism you’re not supposed to be steady with any girl and you’re not supposed to do any physical affection or anything like that. So, for me, it’s like we're just buddies with girls, which I already was. And that was why I was bullied because I preferred to play with the girls. And, ultimately, why would I want to play with the boys if they’re just jerks like that. The girls never bullied me. 

JEN: So you’re doing all this for years, 15 to 18. Tell us what happened at 18. 

MATT: So, at 18, that’s when I acted, when I did gay stuff. I met this guy who was the first guy that I had developed feelings for. I mean, I had crushes and stuff like that, but I mean, they were all unrequited. But he was the first one, after years of never feeling any kind of chemistry and feeling things were so unnatural. And yet, I was being told that the way I felt was unnatural, that being gay or attracted to other guys, but that’s what just felt natural and normal. And it was solidified with this guy that I met. The chemistry, it was just wild. And I, for the first time, things just felt good and right. And I think the trouble was that I just couldn’t get past everything that I’d been taught. The indoctrination, the expectations. 

At 18, I had to start thinking about going on a mission because that was, in Mormonism,  19, at that time was the age that young men went on a mission for two years. You’re basically taught from the first age you can even know, young boys are taught they will eventually go on missions. And young girls are taught that they’ll eventually grow up and marry a boy who went on a mission. It’s an expectation to be a good Mormon you have to do that. And so I, in my fear, I ended things with this guy because I wanted to go on a mission. So I decided to do everything that I could. I went and confessed to my bishop. And I knew that the stake president was the one who would have to sign the mission papers. I went and decided to confess to him and see if he could help me create a plan for me to be on track to go on a mission. And it was weird, he called my parents and told them. I got a call from my mom saying, “Hey, we just talked with President O’Branson. You need to come home so we can talk about this right now.” 

That’s where things just really went south. I mean, I was already pretty miserable in my existence of just so much turmoil for who I was. And, now, it wasn’t just that I had the thoughts or feelings, i had also acted on them which I was told I wasn’t supposed to do. And it was, once in that conversation with my parents, afterwards that they suggested conversion therapy. I had done everything growing up. I compulsively prayed multiple times throughout the day every single day. And I made, on every possible thing I could make a wish on, holding my breath driving through a tunnel, making a wish on a dandelion, on an eyelash, on a turkey wishbone. I would actually even, every birthday I was at as someone was blowing out the candles, I would try to make a wish before they could make their birthday wish, trying to steal their birthday wish. And I would feel terrible about it. But I so compulsively felt like I had to do everything possible for God to change me. And we were always kind of taught, “Faith without works is dead.” And so it’s like I fasted multiple times a month. I read scripture twice a day. I tried everything. And so when this was presented to me, I believed that this is something else that I could try. This is another thing that I can do to show, or even maybe tangibly make a difference. For a while I kind of told myself or convinced myself that I was 18, I was legally an adult. I could make the choice for myself. But, you know, I was still a kid and I didn’t make a fully informed and consensual choice. I was coerced into it by a lot of misguided belief and just a lot of untruths. 

JEN: So, let’s take a minute and dive into the depths of conversion therapy itself, as you're talking about doing it. We know it comes in many forms. We know it has a lot of different names. And we’re going to talk about this broader subject. And when we’re talking about conversion therapy, this is the attempt to change or reduce or modify somebody’s sexual orientation or gender identity in order for them to become cisgender or straight or as close as they can get, to move you toward that goal of being cisgender and straight. So, when we’re talking about this therapy and listening to Matt’s experience, it’s basically someone telling him, “We’re going to cure you of gayness.” I just want to make sure that for everybody listening, that the term “Conversion Therapy” has been defined. Can you talk to us about what conversion therapy looked like in practice for you? 

MATT: Yeah. So, a lot of people brush it off as if that’s archaic. That doesn’t happen. It is still happening, first off, like licensed professionals are still legally able to do it in at least the majority of states. Churches can do it all they want. And professionals who work for churches, they can also practice it as long as it’s under the guise of religious practice. The laws can’t touch them. None of the laws across the states right now even protect adults from this. So, for an 18 year old like me, even if across the country it was banned like it has been in some states, it would not have protected me, a barely 18 year old who was indoctrinated by religion to believe that this was his only option. I would not have been protected by any of these laws because who I saw was a licensed professional. I don’t know. I think of it as kind of like a snake oil salesman.

JEN: So, for you, what did they do? How did they try to fix you? 

MATT: So, mine, and he actually called his “Reparative Therapy” because there was something broken that needed repair. We weren’t converting me from gay to straight because “gay doesn’t exist. That’s not a real thing. Everybody is hetero. Some people just, their hetero is broken, and we need to repair it.” So, in mine, he took a very cognitive behavioral approach. His whole thing was, I had a “distant, whether emotionally or physically, distant same-gender parent, or same-sex parent”. Yes, “same-sex attraction” is what they call it because “you can’t be gay or gay is a choice, same-sex attraction is not a choice. It’s a disorder that you develop. But gay is a choice and that’s when you choose to give in to your weakness”. These things are in quotes because these are not my beliefs. 

JEN: Right. These are air quotes going on all over the place. 

MATT: These were the things that I was told. And I was told that the gay lifestyle is empty and all it is promiscuity and drugs. And that’s what they told us in these first sessions to convince us that this is what we needed. You didn’t have this male, or this same-gender parent that you could identify with. Because he was distant, you then incorrectly identify with the opposite gender parent and essentially model who you are after that person. So that means you also, and this is a literal quote, “you made the exotic, erotic.” So, because males were exotic, I wasn’t modeled after one because my dad was traveling back and forth in Congress. So the exotic became erotic. And I had to learn how to get healthy hetero male bonding and healthy hetero male physical intimacy in order to fill this hole that was inside of me. And if i could just make sure that throughout the rest of my life, I’m always paying attention to this need inside me to connect with other men in order to prevent me from having “unhealthy urges” that I might give in to, that’s what I would have to do for the rest of my life is focus on prevention of relapse, essentially. 

And that learning how to connect with men in nonsexual ways was part of the focus. And so we would do role play. We would work on improving my self confidence. And there were some things, like he helped me process some of my body image issues. So, in some ways, there were some things that he was doing that would’ve just been kind of standard parts of therapy. But then there was the overarching goal and the overarching idea was that all of this was in order to repair this condition or this disease that I had developed. 

JEN: How did you figure out that this was hurting you and not helping you?

MATT: Even when I got out, I didn’t even really consider how much it was hurting me. And it took me a while before I even was able to vocalize that it hurt me and traumatized me a lot. 

JEN: So your family was encouraging. Like, they were enthusiastically supporting your participation in this, right? And when you realized it wasn’t working and you decided to stop, how did that go with the family? 

MATT: When I told them I was going to stop, it’s kind of tough to judge their reactions because at the same time that I told them I was done, I also told them that I had accepted myself and was going to date men. 

JEN: Wait, I should’ve asked this before. How long were you participating in this conversion therapy? How old are you at this point? 

MATT: So I started when I was 18. I did it for a year and a half. I stopped right before my 20th birthday. The reason I stopped, actually, no. I think people would find this really interesting: I decided to stop. At the time I was dating another Mormon. I was attending institute and I met this girl who was super cool. Most of her friends were guys. She was really chill and I really liked her. She was a lot of fun to be around. And, actually, I can’t say that I necessarily felt like sexual chemistry. We would make out and I would really enjoy it. She actually is the one that taught me how to kiss, I feel like. And I thought to myself, in my head I told myself, if I have to marry a woman, I think this is the type of woman I could marry. I’m sure any woman listening is like, “I’m sure they would love to know that they’re like that consolation prize.” She went to Mormon General Conference, which is twice a year for Mormons to receive instruction from church authorities. And so she had gone. And after she came back, she came over and she just started crying. And she just said, “Matt, when I was at conference, the spirit told me…” – and so the holy spirit told her – that she needed to break up. And she came and she’s crying. She’s like, “I really like you. I don’t want to break up with you. But I have to do what The Spirit is telling me. And I don’t know why. We have to end.” 

And you know, for me that was a sign. I was like, “I know why God told you to break up with me.” And so I was like, all right, well, I thought, “If God’s going to tell you that, then I have something to say to God, too.” And after, I guess it had been about a decade by now of me spending hours upon hours upon hours in prayer, begging. And all those wishes every chance I could wish to be straight, for God to make me straight, and nothing happening, I decided to say a different prayer. And I knelt and I told God, “I’m done asking for you to change me. I’ve accepted and I think it’s okay that I’m gay. And if you have any problem with that you better come down and tell me directly or I’m going to keep doing what I’m doing.” In that moment, I was filled with the most calming and loving feeling that I have ever experienced in my life. And after years of fearing I was going to go to Hell, I realized that all that time I was already in it. And with this one prayer, I recognized that there was nothing wrong with me in the first place. Ultimately, why I left was I realized that there wasn’t anything to repair. 

The trouble is, when I would tell people about my prayer, they would tell me, “Oh, well you were just deceived by the Devil. He is a sneaky bastard.” For me, I was like, “If God feels like misery, if following God feels like what it did for the last ten years and this amazing loving peace and warmth and euphoria is the devil, I guess I’m a Satanist now.” Because I would way rather have that, actual self acceptance and love. I think it was just more frustration out of people telling me that that wonderful feeling that I had and the self acceptance wouldn’t come from God. So that’s why I left conversion therapy. My family, they didn’t care as much about me stopping conversion therapy. And in fact, later I learned that some of them did not like that I was even doing it, but never said anything because they felt like it was what I wanted and they didn’t want to deter me. They did take some issue with me deciding I was going to start dating men. My dad felt personally harmed by the conversion therapy and felt like it hurt our family. Actually, my sister confided in me that she felt like it was causing more harm than good but she just never said anything until after. 

JEN: I want to ask you some rapid-fire questions about, not your experience, but general conversion therapy, like as a professional. So I’m just going to kind of fire them at you for a second, okay. You mentioned one, but what are some of the names that are actually some version of trying to cure homosexuality?

MATT: Some of them are really good. Like the guy that I saw, they talk about theirs being about healing sexual issues. So ethical practice, you wouldn’t encourage your kid to be anything other than themselves. If a kid’s questioning or confused, I’m not going to be like, “You’re gay and we’re going to steer you to gayness.” I’m just going to be like “Oh, okay. I’m going to give you a space where you can talk about that and explore that in an unconditionally accepting way, so that you can figure out what you are.” It’s not my job to point you in one way or another. I’m just going to affirm you. Now, if ultimately, you come to conclude that you are gay, or bi, or trans, or whatever, I’m going to affirm that. But it would be unethical to encourage them one way or another. And, so, anything that doesn’t do that, that is something you want to watch out for. Unfortunately, some of it you might not recognize until it’s already happening because they might be able to say and do the right things. 

JEN: Given the lack of evidence for this kind of practice to be helpful and the abundance of evidence – studies are very clear that reparative therapy is harmful. Why is it still a thing? 

MATT: I think that’s something that unfortunately, we know this is bad, why are we still talking about it? Just because we know it’s bad, that that means it doesn’t happen. But it happens because of religion. If it weren’t for religious morals or religions teaching that it was immoral to love someone, then I don’t think we would have it. I think part of the problem is this really misguided belief that an LGBTQ identity is wrong. It’s all based in prejudice. And I think a lot of parents are afraid because they know that an LGBTQ identity comes with a lot of pain. It comes with potential for bullying, like I experienced. It comes with potential for a lot of shame and guilt and depression and anxiety. We see the statistics out there. People are at risk for developing substance use issues or suicidal ideation or even attempting suicide. And they see those things, or they interpret that information as, that being LGBTQ is harmful. But what they fail to realize is that those statistics are not the result of an LGBTQ identity. Those statistics are a result of living in a hateful society with an LGBTQ identity. 

JEN: There’s obviously licensing boards and official positions for social workers and psychiatrists and therapists of all sorts. What’s the official position about conversion therapy from those organizations? 

MATT: All major licensing organizations and mental health organizations or even medical associations all denounce conversion therapy because of its harms that leave LGBTQ people riddled with shame and self loathing. And so all organizations have recognized the intense harm. But, I know internationally, they even liken conversion therapy to psychological torture, because it has all of the same outcomes as psychological torture. 

JEN: So what if someone’s personal religious beliefs prohibit them from being queer in any way at all, and they’re very attached to their religion, they very much believe it. And they also know that conversion therapy is wrong. So, what sort of things are recommended to help people stuck in that spot? 

MATT: Find a mental health professional who’s affirming. And when I say affirming, I don’t mean they’re only LGBTQ affirming and they’re going to move you that way. They just affirm you as a person because, like I was saying, ethically a mental health professional is not going to try to change your religious belief. They’re not going to try and change your sexual identity. All they’re going to do is, their focus is going to be on supporting you and helping you have the most fulfilled and meaningful life as much as they can. And so I think that definitely finding a mental health professional who doesn’t have an agenda. Like, in conversion therapy, there’s a clear agenda. Just find a mental health professional whose agenda is supporting your child. And also, what I would say is, look for community of other people who are in similar positions. I think that’s one of the things that I love about Mama Dragons is that it’s an organization that offers that space for people who are in this position because it is really tough, and it feels very lonely. And so finding community is so important and knowing that there are other people out there, being able to find that and connect with people out there who also understand what you’re going through is incredibly important. Whether that’s ReddIt, Parenting Forums, or MeetUP.com. You can find, probably groups of people. Or if we’re talking about gender diversity, Genderspectrum.org is a really good one. I highly, highly, highly recommend, if anybody is not aware of Caitlyn Ryan and the Family Acceptance Project’s work - 

JEN: That’s actually our second episode. So we refer anyone back to that second episode. But keep going. 

MATT: -definitely check out that work of the Family Acceptance Project because they are the world professionals on this specific topic, religious identity and LGBTQ identities and that intersection. The Family Acceptance Project, they are the leading authority. 

JEN: Yep. 

MATT: I refer to their work all the time. Their work is going to be in the book that I’m writing. That is a great resource I would say. 

JEN: Alright. So I want to jump back to your family, like your personal story a little bit. We left when you were 18, 19 doing conversion therapy and then you decided this is not it. I’m going a different direction. How did your relationship change with your family at that point? What was going on with the family relationships when you decided to just change directions?  

MATT: It was an evolution, I will say. And the reason I use that word is because that’s how I refer to it in the book and because it’s a word that a lot of elected officials have used. I just haven’t evolved yet to that point. And that’s what it was like for my family. When I first informed them that I was done with conversion therapy and that I was leaving or that I was going to start dating men. And this was at Thanksgiving. I had gathered my family and when I told them, they kind of took turns telling me that I’d always be a part of the family and they loved me and accepted me. But they could never accept a partner that I'd have. Again, I could be gay, I just couldn’t do gay stuff. And gay stuff meant having a partner. They wouldn’t accept it. And think about it, what they’re basically telling me is, “If you find someone that you love that loves you back, we won’t accept that. That’s not what we want for you.” And so that was the message. I should say, except for my brother. Interestingly, my brother, he’s always been the most even keeled, non judgemental. And he was silent the whole time. And my dad kind of nudged him and said “Jake, you’ve been quiet this whole time, what do you have to say about this?” And he just looked at me and he said, “Are you happy, Matt?” And I responded, “Yeah, I am.” And he goes, “Okay.” And that was all. 

JEN: I love that modeling for the rest of the family, that they were all there and got to hear that. 

MATT: And they all just, from there, that’s where we left it. I took things in a step-wise fashion. It was like, “Alright, fine. If that’s going to be how things are.” I didn’t have a partner at the time, so I was like, “Whatever.” And then, fast-forward like a year or so and I had somebody I really cared about. And so I upped the boundary a little bit. And I was like, “Here’s the thing.” And I was a little self-sacrificing, of course. I think that’s just what we become programmed to be is self-sacrificing. But I was like, “You can say, you can disrespect me. But if you do anything that negatively affects my partner, or if you treat my partner in any way that is harmful, then we’re going to have to take a break as a family here. I’m going to take a break from you.” And so they kind of swallowed their stubbornness a little bit on it. And they accepted meeting him and getting to know him. And then, at that point, it was moving to a place more of “We’re tolerant or maybe accepting of this.” But still it was, they maintained this belief that marriage is between a man and a woman. 

And I forgot this part. My dad wasn’ the only one in politics. My mom was a political activist. She was the president of an organization called “United Families” which one of their main focuses was anti-LGBTQ policy. The reason I even knew about conversion therapy was because of a contact that she had made through her work. And when Arizona, in 2006, fighting to ban gay marriage, my mom was the author of the bill. And she would have me edit it and get my help on it. So over time, it was like, “Now I deserve to be treated with respect and to be loved fully,” and I kept demanding acceptance. And they would come back with, “Well, we do accept you.” And what I realized was, while I was in my head kind of demanding acceptance and they were confused, like, “Well, we already do accept you.” And I realized that they actually were accepting. I guess if you want to think about the definition of it, “We accept that you’re gay and that does not affect your position in the family or anything.” So, yeah, they were accepting. But, for me, ultimately, that wasn’t enough. I realized that I didn’t want to just be accepted. I wanted to be embraced for everything about me. I wanted them to not even wish that things were different. I wanted them to get to the point where they love that I’m gay because it’s a part of who I am. That they would never have even wanted me to be born a different way. 

JEN: Did they ever get there, or are they still working on it, still on that journey? 

MATT: What I can say is that they’re not all necessarily in the same place. But, for the most part, they are all there. My dad told me, “I don’t believe in a God that would have a problem with you being this way.” And he’s told me that he’s glad for who I am. He wouldn’t want to change that. I mean, the rest of them, they’ve all pretty much gotten to that point. And so it’s really nice. I mean, my partner and I went on vacation with them and they treated him as if he was their son-in-law. It’s so funny, before this trip was I think the first time that my brother sat down and had a conversation with his boys about me being gay and actually talked with them about it. And I guess my sister kind of did the same thing with her daughter. My nephews, when they were told that I was bringing my boyfriend with me, they were like, “Oh, if he’s going to have someone with him, who's going to play video games with us, then?” and that was what they cared about. For them, it was just like, “Okay, that’s just who he loves. But real talk, who's going to play video games with us?” 

JEN: They didn’t want to lose their time with their uncle. 

MATT: Yeah. They thought they had to compete now. 

JEN: So an interesting element to your story is that you have parents, particularly a Dad who's been very vocal and active in opposition to the things that you’re publicly active for. How do you navigate that as you’ve separated religious beliefs and some of them have maintained those which are in opposition to what you’re advocating for. How do you navigate that in relationship to each other? 

MATT: I had to realize that, if I wanted them to embrace everything about me, even the parts that might not be their favorite, I realized that I would have to do the same for them. And so, while it’s not my favorite that they will still vote for people who work against my best interest, that I have to realize that they’re doing the most that they can at this time. I have to remind myself that it’s not for lack of love. It’s more that they don’t know better. I consented as a legal adult to doing conversion therapy. They’re making choices that are the result of decades of programming. And that’s hard to operate against. And so I have to be patient with that because I had a strong catalyst. Me being queer was a catalyst for me changing my programming. They don’t have an internal catalyst driving that. Yes, their love for me, but it’s not inside them. It’s not them, it’s not their identity. And so they’re not going to see the world in the same way. 

JEN: Do you have advice for families who might be listening who hold some more conservative views? It sounds like it’s taken your family some years to come together and navigate those relationships. Do you have some shortcuts for the rest of us so we can skip some of the hard parts? 

MATT: Lean into the love. And remember that as much as you can, if you can trust that your kid is not choosing this, first off, your kid just wants to be loved and accepted for who they are. They’re probably scared, too. And I would say, almost with 100 percent certainty, that if you’re questioning how to respond, they’re probably already experiencing a significant amount of shame just for existing. And so, as much as you can, just love them and know they’re not doing anything against you or to you or to dishonor you. They’re just trying to navigate the world with really limited tools. They just need that unconditional acceptance and love. And so finding a way to find common ground. If you’re not at a place where you can be a loud cheerleader and champion and advocate for them, that’s okay. 

But if you can just bite your tongue when they wear something that you think is a little wild or lavish or whatever, let them wear what they want to wear. Let them use whatever name they want to use or pronouns they want to go by. Because what’s the harm? If your little kid came up to you with a black cape on and was like, “I’m Batman. Call me Batman.” You’re not going to be like, “No, you’re not Batman. God didn’t make you that way. I’m not going to call you Batman.” Yeah, you’re going to be like, “Sweet. Batman, what should we do today? Who should we save?” So, why, when your child comes and is like, “Hey, I want to use this name.” You’re like, “No. That’s not the name you were given. You’re going to go by the name I picked for you. This is not your life. It’s the life I made for you.” No. It is their life. Let them live it how they want to. What harm is that as long as they’re not actually out there harming people. 

JEN: Given your tumultuous back and forth journey with your family and your personal experience with conversion therapy and your professional practice working with LGBTQ clients, it’s pretty awesome and natural that you would be writing a book. Talk to us a little bit about your book and where people can pre-order it. 

MATT: So my book. It’s kind of part memoir, tells a lot about my own personal story and a lot of what I’ve talked about here. As well as going in more depth and looking at the norms that exist, the traditions that are a lot of conservative religious people, they’re pro tradition. They don’t want things to change. And that’s really tough. And, yeah, change is really tough. But my book talks all about how certain traditions are harming us. And, yes, it uses my frame as a queer and neurodiverse person. 

But I also try to generalize to just look at other stigmatized identities, other types of identities that are not as widely accepted. Just, I guess, othering in general, meaning someone who is different from you. So trying to look at that. And as a critique of the current norms that we have. So I talk about politics, I mean, of course because politics and religion are a huge part of my story and family. I talk about all of those things and how they contributed to the conflict that I experienced. It’s also part guide for families as they navigate these kinds of challenges of dealing with conflicting belief systems and identities. My hope is that can be used to help people avoid the kind of harms that I experienced growing up or that many experience growing up as a result of these conflicts. And advocate for that kind of change in society. But right now, and for a limited time, like through the early part of October, we’ll be having a pre-sale. I’ll be able to take some orders after as well. And that you can find on the website matt-salmon.presale.manuscripts.com

JEN: And for those of us who cannot remember things for five seconds, again, that is in the show notes. You can go find that link. 

Your journey, Matt, is unique and it’s fascinating. I’m obsessed with your passion to make the pathway a little bit smoother for those who come after you. Thank you so much for coming today and sharing all of this with us. 

MATT: Absolutely. So honored to be on the show and I really appreciate the work that you all do. I think it’s so important. I wish my mom had something like this when I was going through it. 

JEN: Thanks again. 

MATT: Absolutely.

JEN: Thanks so much for joining us here in the den. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with your friends. We’d also love it if you could take a minute to leave us a positive rating and review on whatever platform you’re listening to us on. Good reviews make us more visible and help us reach more folks who could benefit from listening. But, review or not, we’re glad you’re here. For more information on Mama Dragons and the podcast, you can visit our website at mamdragons.org or follow us on Instagram or Facebook. And if you’d like to help Mama Dragons in our mission to support, educate, and empower the parents of LGBTQ children, donate at mamadragons.org or click the donate link in the show notes.