Trans is Beautiful

In this episode of In the Den, American actor and musician Emmett Preciado visits with Jen about his experience growing up as a transgender boy in a conservative religion. He candidly talks about a range of topics from transition to his experiences with dating to experiencing Hollywood as a trans man. You won’t want to miss this thoughtful glimpse into Emmett’s life and the wisdom he’s gained through embracing his transgender identity. 

Special Guest: Emmett Preciado

Emmett Preciado, formerly known as Emmett Claren, is an American transgender actor and singer-songwriter of Spanish, Mexican, and European descent. He was born in Merced, California, but grew up in Chilton, Wisconsin. Emmett grew up in, and served a full-time mission for, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. After briefly attending BYU Idaho, he dropped out to physically transition and to seriously pursue his acting career. Emmett is known for his role as Rowan on Freeform's Good Trouble, Rio Gutierrez on ABC’s The Good Doctor, and has worked with The Trevor Project and The National LGBTQ Task Force.

Links from the Show:

Emmett on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@emmettpreciado

Emmett on IG: https://www.instagram.com/emmettpreciado

Emmett on FB: https://www.facebook.com/emmettpreciado/

Emmett on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyx59LUSE0uhgqDSF0MzipA

Early documentary with Emmett: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zzyroz1OgSA

New article about Emmett: https://www.emmettpreciado.com/p/news.html

Emmett’s website: https://www.emmettpreciado.com/

Emmett’s top surgery reaction video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hofq-y2WHHo&ab_channel=EmmettPreciado 

Emmett dueting with himself pre-transition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72Na68cO3_I&t=9s&ab_channel=EmmettPreciado 

Join Mama Dragons here: www.mamadragons.org 

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Transcript

JEN:   Hello and welcome. You are listening to In the Den with Mama Dragons. I’m your host, Jen. This podcast was created out of our desire to walk and talk with you through this journey of raising happy, healthy, and productive LGBTQ humans. We are so happy that you’re here with us.

When our kids tell us that they are transgender or that they’re questioning their gender, a lot of thoughts can come into our minds.  Most of us have plenty of learning to do because society hasn’t done a great job historically to prepare any of us for this.  Some of us even have some intense unlearning to do first because we have been raised with misconceptions and misinformation that we haven’t taken time to challenge. One thing that seems pretty universal is that parents often feel fear about this.  We are afraid of the hard things our children might face and we have a hard time imagining a future and amazing potential and possibilities that might exist for our child.  This holds true, regardless of how old they are when they invite us into their hearts and their feelings on the topic.

 In this line of thinking, I’m super excited about our guest today.  I met him almost a decade ago when he was first starting his transition.  I was mesmerized by his early videos where he came out publicly and expressed his full heart and vulnerability and desire to live authentically.  I was able to watch him speak to and work with youth and share his desire to help them find hope in a world that often feels scary. And, over the time period since then, he has continued to be an exceptional example of joy and resiliency and authenticity.  

Emmett Preciado, formerly known as Emmett Claren, is an American transgender actor and singer-songwriter of Spanish, Mexican and European descent. He was born in Merced, California but grew up in Chilton, Wisconsin. Emmett grew up in and served a full-time mission for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. After briefly attending BYU Idaho, he dropped out to physically transition and to seriously pursue his acting career. Emmett is known for his role as Rowan on Freeform's Good Trouble, Rio Gutierrez on ABC’s The Good Doctor, and has worked with The Trevor Project and The National LGBTQ Task Force. Welcome, Emmett!  Thank you so much for coming to visit with us today!

EMMETT:  Hi. Thank you for having me.

JEN:   It would be really easy to start with the excitement and enthusiasm over your career for the past few years.  But as far as I’m concerned the real inspiration is you, as a person, so much more to you than just your career success.  So I’d like to start much earlier than your career. I think hearing a trans story can humanize it for all of us. And your story is a thoughtful one. So can you talk to us about when you first started to experience gender at all and what that was like for you and how your labeling evolved over the years?

EMMETT:  Yeah. So I grew up in a very, very small town, Chilton, Wisconsin. And it was 3,000 people. And we didn’t really talk about gender at all. We didn’t talk about queer issues at all. It was a very, I would say a pretty conservative town, to be honest. So, growing up, I didn’t really think about my gender. I just knew that I felt like a boy growing up. As a kid, I was a boy. I knew that I had a different name. I knew that my parents dressed me in different clothes than my brother. I knew that they were treating me a little bit differently. But I still was just like, I’m a boy. I’m a boy like my brother. We play together. I asked him to call me boy names. I would just be like, “Today, can I be James. Today, I’m going to be Michael.” All these bible names, I just picked them. And he would just go along with me like, “Sure.” And then we would play. And we would play like army or soldier or whatever. But, growing up, that’s how I saw myself. I was just like “I’m just a boy.”

And then things started to change right when puberty started to hit because, all of the sudden, my body was changing. All of the sudden, my hips were getting wider and thicker but my brothers weren’t. All of the sudden, my chest started to grow. And I was just like, “What is happening. My body is betraying me. This is not what my body is supposed to be doing. I’m supposed to start looking this way and instead I’m becoming a girl.” Is basically how I saw it. So that was around 11, 12.

JEN:   Tell me about your siblings really fast, just to interject. You were the oldest, right?

EMMETT:  Yes. I am the oldest.

JEN:   And then how many follow you?.

EMMETT:  I’m the oldest of seven kids but I grew up being the oldest of five because I come from a mixed family. I was the oldest.

JEN:   So how much younger was the brother that you’re talking about?

EMMETT:  He was only two years younger than me. So we were pretty close.

JEN:   Right. Okay. Sorry about that. Keep going. I was just curious about the family structure.

EMMETT:  Yeah. So that happened around 11, 12 years old. And that’s when I started feeling really uncomfortable. I started covering up. I started wearing hoodies. I would wear two or three of my sports bras to flatten my chest because, in my mind, I was becoming one of the girls in my class and I didn’t want them to know I was turning into one of them. That’s not who I am. I’m a boy. What’s happening to me?

JEN:   Did you have any language for any of this?

EMMETT:  I had absolutely no language. I had no resources. I didn’t know where to go, who to talk to? I was dealing with all of this by myself and feeling like there was something wrong with me. And the only person that I could talk to about this was God. I had nobody else to talk to. So I would just pray to the sky, talk to the sky, beg the sky to tell me what is going on and why is this happening to me?

JEN:   Did you know that other people were not experiencing this?

EMMETT:  I genuinely thought that I was the only person on the planet experiencing this.  I knew that I was in the wrong body. And I was just like, I don’t have vocabulary for this. I’m not able to Google this. My parents were very strict. I can’t just type into Google, “I feel like a boy but I’m a girl.” There were no tools for me, no resources. And I really thought, God hates me. He singled me out. I’m the only person feeling this. And it’s the loneliness feeling ever.

JEN:   And if you’re the only one, there’s probably no reason to think that anyone would believe you anyway.

EMMETT:  Yeah.

JEN:   I could try to talk about it but they’re just going to think I’m crazy.

EMMETT:  Exactly. How do you explain, one, I was already struggling with my sexual orientation.

JEN:   Well, talk about that. How did that play into helping or to further confusing when that also hits about puberty time?

EMMETT:  Yeah. So I, again early on, like first grade, I was attracted to girls. I had crushes on the girls in my class. I had crushes on my teachers. My first-grade teacher, she was really pretty. I had these feelings and I knew that they were just natural. They were the way that I felt. And, again, I really didn’t feel like anything was wrong until I started getting a little bit older. And I experimented when I was kid. I kissed a girl when I was a kid and I thought that that was fine, that was normal. And then, come to find out, “We all experiment when we’re kids, but that’s just a phase. Just don’t do that again. It’s fine.” And I was like, but I want to. That feels natural to me.

JEN:   But I liked it.

EMMETT:  Exactly. I want to kiss girls. So, growing up, even before puberty, I was like something’s wrong. I like girls. I’m not supposed to. I’m not allowed to. And then, when puberty hit around 11, 12 years old, then it’s like, oh, I also feel like I don’t feel like a girl. And I’m not a girl that likes girls. I’m a boy who likes girls. But then I’m looking at myself in the mirror and I’m just like, but I’m a girl, physically. What is going on? I was just like helpless. I was like, what is wrong with me? So it was really confusing. And that’s when I started praying to the sky and just begging anybody who was listening, begging God like, “Please hear me. I am absolutely miserable. I don’t understand why I’m going through this.” And I would beg God to change me into a boy overnight.

I used to get down on my knees by my window and I would stay up until 3:00 in the morning and just beg, beg, beg, beg. I would pray to the moon and I would beg God, “Please, when I go to sleep tonight, while I’m sleeping, I’ll go through any pain you want me to go through, but just, please, when I wake up in the morning, let me be a boy. Please make me a boy.” And I was making all these deals and bargaining and saying all these things that I’d be willing to do if I could just be who I am who I feel inside or who I feel that I am inside. And it was this never-ending cycle of praying and begging and then waking up and nothing changing. And just feeling super depressed and feeling like God hated me and feeling like I must’ve done something wrong to deserve this. And that just led to low self-esteem and depression. 

JEN:   So you were super religious and you were part of a super religious family. And something that we hear over and over again among those who are super religious, is you try, like negotiate with God, you set up this plan, and then it doesn’t work. And many, many, many times you don’t give up. You just double down. You try harder. Is that the direction you went?

EMMETT:  Oh, yeah. I was like, maybe my faith isn’t strong enough. And it escalated. I ended up laying in the grass – behind my house there’s a giant football field and I would lay in the football field. And I would stare up at the sky and just be like, okay. I’m ready. Strike me with lightening. I’ll take any pain that you want to give me. And I would start to feel a cramp and I’d be like, “It’s happening. It’s happening.” I would get so excited. That hurts, I’m ready. I’m ready. Let’s go.

JEN:   That is so much faith for you to lay there and think your body’s going to change. That’s not a lack of faith. That’s some pretty intense faith.

EMMETT:  Because that’s what they teach you is that if you have faith and you believe and you trust and you’re good and you do everything right, miracles happen. And I took that to heart. And I was like, okay, I truly have faith. I truly believe. This is who I know I am. He has to, he has to answer my prayers. He has to. And I lay there and lay there and nothing would happen. I lay there and I’d just start crying. And it’s the most helpless I’ve ever felt in my entire life because I was also just a child. I couldn’t go to a doctor and take care of this myself. I couldn’t do anything. And I could not go to my parents. I could not go to my Mormon parents and be like, “Hey. So, I feel attracted to girls. On top of that, I feel like a boy trapped in a girl’s body.” I didn’t even know how to say that, how to articulate that. So I had no idea where to begin.

JEN:   So, did you have anyone during this. Like, by the time you were at the end of high school did you find anybody, in middle school, anywhere along the line?

EMMETT:  It was the summer after my junior year of high school. I had a friend who went to my high school who had recently come out as a trans woman which I thought was so brave.

JEN:   And also probably backwards, like, “Why would anyone want to be a girl?”

EMMETT:  I know. Yeah. You want to be a girl, really? But it wasn’t that she wanted to be one. She knew she was one.

JEN:   She just was one.

EMMETT:  Exactly. Yeah. And she said it out loud. She was like, “I feel like a girl trapped in a boy’s body.” And that’s when it clicked for me. It was like that’s how I feel but the opposite. I feel like a boy trapped in a girl’s body. And she was like, “You could be trans.” And that’s when it all kind of started for me. I started to think about because this is a real thing and I’m not the only person.

JEN:   You even have a word that you can search or ask about.

EMMETT:  Exactly. But my mind went to all of things that I had been taught about transgender people. Like the very few things that I had heard were they were freaks and they were pedophiles and they’re perverts and all these things. But that’s not me. I’m not that. So that word for me, I was scared of because I was, but that’s all the things that I heard. But that’s not me. I’m just a boy in a girl’s body.

JEN:   We talk so much here about the importance of representation. And this is perfect example of it because those were the stereotypes we all saw in movies when it was associated with that word.

EMMETT:  And the only trans person that I’d heard of was Chas Bono. That’s it. So I was like, okay. There’s three of us in the world? This isn’t giving me very much hope for my future. There’s not many of us. That’s what I thought. So that was like the end of my high school career is about when I started feeling like, “Oh, I’m starting to get some words for this.” But I was living at home. I wanted to impress my parents. I wanted to make them proud. And I had already, I had a secret girlfriend in high school, got caught, was never allowed to see her again. And I just wanted to make them proud of me. And I felt like they were ashamed of me. I felt like they were embarrassed of me. I felt like they weren’t proud of me.

And so I doubled down and decided I was going to be the perfect Mormon daughter. I was going to do everything by the book. I started growing out my hair and wearing makeup. And my friend’s mannerism, I would copy them. I tried so hard to be as girlie as possible, it made me sick. It was gross. It felt like dressing up and playing a character. But my parents were really happy. My family was really happy. My congregation at church was really happy. Everybody was happy except for me. But I had this belief that if I am super active in the church, if I do everything they want me to do, if I do everything that “God wants me to do”, maybe he’ll make me normal. Maybe He’ll take this all away from me. Maybe I’ll like boys and want to marry one. And maybe I’ll want to be a girl.

And so I went and served a mission for the church. I left in 2013 and the mission showed me that that was not going to change. Nothing changed. If anything at all, it was like, this is real and you can’t run from it. You can’t hide from it.

JEN:   So when you came home, and you eventually came out very publicly. And I’m intrigued by this because you were living in Utah and partially Idaho, not known as the most progressive areas of the country. And a lot of people wrestle, right? Do I just go totally stealth and secret and never tell anyone? Do I tell just the people close to me? Do I run away and hide? But you decided, very early on, that you were going to be public about your identity and your transition. Talk about why that was important to you? What motivated that decision?

EMMETT:  I didn’t have that. I didn’t have that growing up. I didn’t have somebody to look up to. I didn’t have a role model. I didn’t know what a future as a trans man could look like. And so I felt like it was super important for me to document my journey so that other trans people and other young trans people growing up could see my journey and take something from that. And be like, Oh, there is hope. Oh, I can be myself. I can be happy. I didn’t even know that I was going to succeed. I didn’t know and yet, deep down, there was that knowing that, “You know what. I had my wrestle with God. I came to terms with the fact that I was trans at BYU Idaho. And I felt supported by God and I knew that he had me.”  

JEN:   So before you ever came out, you felt right with God? You weren’t like, “I’m sorry God. I have to do this or I’m going to die.”

EMMETT:  I wanted to know that I had God’s approval before I move forward with this because I’m a very by-the-book kind of person. I like to follow the rules. I don’t like getting in trouble. So I wanted to do everything by the book when it came to the church. And I had come out to my bishop as being attracted to girls first because I knew that was  thing. That was something I could change. But the being trans part, I was like, okay. I need to figure out if this is real or what this is. And it did all make sense. Everything that I looked up was just like, that’s me, that’s me, that’s me, that’s me. This has never happened before.

JEN:   So, did you go through that phase of, “Okay. I am trans. But I will not be transitioning.”

EMMETT:  So, actually, when I came to terms with the fact that, okay, this is me. I am trans. I am his son. And my spirit, my soul is male. It always has been. Once I came to that realization and I knew that God knew that as well, I felt protected. I felt like I had a shield, like armor where I could – I have the only opinion that matters. And that’s God’s. So I’m moving forward with this.

JEN:   What a lovely gift of your faith.

EMMETT:  Well, trigger warning. It was more a means of survival. I was not going to live if I didn’t pursue my transition because I was extremely suicidal at BYU Idaho. I had tried to take my life a couple of times. And I had tried to take my life a couple times before that, back when I was 14 years old. I did not want to be on this earth. And I did not want to be on this earth as a woman because I knew that’s not who I was. So, for me, it was fighting for survival, fighting to live. And so I felt like, if I don’t do this, if I don’t transition, I’m not going to be here much longer. And I knew that I needed to be strong and so I was just like, “Okay. I’m armed with this support from God. I know who I am. Now I’m going to take this to my bishop.” And I came out to my bishop as trans. He was actually supportive.

JEN:   That’s awesome.

EMMETT:  Yeah. He didn’t know – the handbook, there’s very little in it that we know this is extremely personal. It’s between you and God. So I basically got his blessing to transition.

JEN:   That’s rare and really beautiful.

EMMETT:  It is very rare. He and another higher up leader, the stake president, came in, they gave me a blessing. We fasted together. We prayed together . And they both had given me blessings at separate times. But, when the stake president came in, that was like a whole other thing, serious. And he said, very specifically, in that blessing that you will be guided to know what to do. I thought he was going to say, “No. Don’t transition. You’re a beautiful daughter of God.” All this beautiful stuff, right? No. It was, you will be guided to know what to do. And left it at that this is between you and God.

JEN:   That’s awesome.

EMMETT:  And my bishop was trying so hard to keep me there. I’ll make sure they don’t kick you out. And I just knew that I wasn’t going to be able to stay there and transition, like the church is not there.

JEN:   That’s a fairly conservative school in a very conservative area. So it’s extra shocking that they were awesome.

EMMETT:  Yeah. Very, very, very grateful. Very blessed that bishop, he saved my life.

JEN:   I love that.

EMMETT:  I mean, he encouraged me while I was super depressed and was coming to this knowledge of being trans. He encouraged me not to wear makeup. To dress how I wanted to dress, to just be myself and see how I felt. And when he saw that I wasn’t suicidal after doing that for a week, boom. He was like, “Okay. This is something I don’t know anything about. But it’s very personal. It’s between you and God. And I’m not going to get in the way and I’ll support you in any way that I can.” And I’m like, that’s  real Christian. That’s a real good person. So I’m really grateful that I had him.

JEN:   So, did you tell your family shortly after that?

EMMETT:  Yes.  

JEN:   How did that go? What did that look like?

EMMETT:  Honestly, I don’t even remember very much of that phone call because it was just so hard. It was painful. I called my parents and told them over the phone. They did not take it very well.

JEN:   Probably lots of fear?

EMMETT:  Yes. A lot of fear. And it didn’t really get bad until I publicly came out. When I came out, my parents would not speak to me. They said that I would be a bad example and a bad influence on my siblings. So I wasn’t allowed – they said, at the time, I’m not allowed to come home, things like that. Pretty typical reaction from a conservative Mormon family. I think they were just scared. And they were also hurt. My siblings were still in school and it affected them because people were seeing my content. And my siblings had friends at school that were seeing my content and then bringing it to them. And I didn’t go into coming out with that in mind. I wasn’t trying to make things difficult for my family or my siblings by coming out. I was trying to liberate myself. But it did put them through a stressful time. So I think it was just all scary. It was all new. It was public. And my parents wouldn’t speak to me for, like, a month. And it was really hard. I even took a picture. I have a picture on my phone, I emailed it to myself so I wouldn’t forget. I took a picture after that phone call and I was just in tears. I really, truly felt in that moment like my parents don’t love me and they won’t support me and I just lost my family because I’m finally choosing myself. I’m finally choosing to stand up for myself and be my authentic self and I just lost my family. So I better be right. And then, it was like a month later, and they reached out and they were like, “Look. We don’t understand this. We don’t get it. But you’re our child and we love you unconditionally. You are our child.” And it was nice to hear that. But it took time, it took a long time for us to get to a place where we’re finally like, I’m their son, they’re proud of me. It’s a completely different relationship now to where it was at the beginning. And that’s something that I try to stress to people because I never thought my parents would come around and they did. My whole family did.

JEN:   So by the time I met you, you were so full of hope and joy. It’s almost difficult to believe that there were so many dark days before that.

EMMETT:  I’m good at hiding it.  

JEN:   I don’t even know if, I think your parents were talking to you again by then. Like you had kind of moved through the dark stuff. Was the only thing you needed, transition to pull you out of that dark time? Or did you have other things that you really needed to fight your way through to be the bright, hope, shining light that you are?

EMMETT:  I mean, I have needed so much therapy because it’s a domino effect. Growing up trans and not knowing I’m trans, but knowing how I feel and knowing that I feel different and knowing that what I feel isn’t accepted by society and feeling like there’s always something wrong with me. And then, on top of that, growing up thinking – I honestly thought I was the ugliest person in the world. I thought I was the ugliest girl.

JEN:   You weren’t.

EMMETT:  And I can appreciate that now. But, back then, because I was so unhappy in my body, I was just like, “I am the most unattractive person in the world.” And I would repeat that to myself in my head all the time and affirm that. So I grew up with incredibly low self-esteem. I hated myself. I truly hated myself. On top of that feeling like I am trans because God is punishing me. So I hated myself for that. And then growing up Mormon and all of the guilt and the shame that’s piled on you. And I grew up in it. I was brought into the church before I was eight, so very young. So there’s a lot of guilt and shame that I brought onto myself because I wasn’t perfect  and I was always sinning in the eyes of the church.

JEN:   Sinning by existing.

EMMETT:  Sinning by existing and just like some of the rules that are you, “Are you so freaking kidding me.” It pisses me off. I’m sorry. There’s just so many things that I was so hard on myself for that I shouldn’t have been. And I grew up really not liking myself. And transitioning kind of showed me that I have a lot of work to do on myself. Not only transitioning from female to male, but also I need to learn to love myself. I need to be kind to myself. I need to be kind to that child that I was so mean to growing up. I had so much inner work that I needed to do and I’m still doing. But transition was like the biggest thing for me. Transitioning, honestly, saved my life.

JEN:   So, I’m going to kind of jump. This is going to sound random. But I’m always fascinated when it comes to the trans community and names. I love stories behind why some people change their names and why some people don’t. And I can’t imagine anything more difficult than choosing a name for myself. But you have an extra little element that I find extra interesting with your last name.

EMMETT:  Yes.

JEN:   So is there anything about your whole name journey that you’d like to share?

EMMETT:  So, my old name used to be, It used to start with and ‘E’. I’m pretty open about it. I will say this, though. A lot of trans people are not comfortable with their old name or their dead name being used. It doesn’t bother me, so that’s why I’m going to say it. But I do think it’s important that whoever listens to this realizes not all trans people are comfortable with sharing their old name. It’s very uncomfortable. It’s very triggering. So I am not saying that it’s okay to ask people their dead name.

Me, personally, I am okay with it. It does not bother me. I’ve made peace with my old name. So, my old name used to be Eva. And it was a very – it’s a beautiful name  -- but it really triggered me. It was a girl name. That’s very pretty. Not me. But I knew that my parents had picked out that name intentionally. It meant a lot to them. And I wanted to try to honor that while still honoring how I felt. So I wanted to keep a name that had the same initial. Started with an ‘E’. I had all these names written down. And the one that just kind of kept sticking out to me, was Emmett. It was that or Jake. I was really close, ‘Oh, but Jake. I know it starts with a J. But. Jake, you know. A guys name. Jake.” But I’m not a Jake. And Emmett just really stood out to me. And I looked up the meaning of Emmett and it means to be powerful. And that was the exact opposite of what I was at the time. I was at BYUI. I was extremely depressed. I did not feel strong at all. But that was what I aspired to be. I’m going to be strong. I’m going to be powerful someday. I believe in myself. So Emmett really stuck. It felt like a strong name.

And then, when I chose my middle name, Michael, I kind of made the connection from my old name, Eva. Which, my nickname at times was Eve. And you get Adam and Eve and the creation. And Adam was the archangel that helped create the earth. And his name was actually Michael beforehand and it means to be like God. And for me, that was a way to also honor my old name, but also to remind me that I just want to be good. I just want to try to do good and be good and give good and give light and help make a difference in this world and try to make this world a better, safer place especially for queer individuals, especially for trans individuals. So it just felt right.

And then my last name has been Claron my entire life. But then, my dad didn’t know who his father was his whole life. Our last name was made up. My grandma, may she rest in peace, she made up Claron on my dad’s birth certificate. So, back in, it was a few years ago, back in 2018, 2019, my dad did the 23 and Me DNA test. And this result popped up of 99.999% father figure, whatever it’s called, the category. And he ended up finding his dad, my grandpa, an entire side of the family we didn’t even know about. He’s got siblings. I’ve got uncles and aunts and cousins. And they’re last name is Preciado. And so we realized that’s what our name should have been our entire lives. And so I changed my name to Preciado. I finally feel like I’m me. I’m complete in every sense of the word.

JEN:   I love how there’s a story for the first and the middle and the last name.

EMMETT:  Yeah. I love my name very much. It’s very special to me.

JEN:   That’s so fun. Normally I would never, ever, ever, ever, consider asking any trans person about medical transition or medical steps. And I still won’t. You have been very public about having top surgery, though. So if you’re comfortable, can you tell us about what this surgery entails? What is it? What is it like? And what did it mean for you?

EMMETT:  Yeah. So, top surgery was THE surgery I was focused on from the start. The biggest insecurity that I had, the biggest thing that made me uncomfortable in my body and gave me gender dysphoria, were my breast. And I was very well endowed, like 38DDD. They were very hard to hide. And so I was binding and I was not binding healthily. Sometimes I was wearing two binders because it was just so much to hide and cover up. You’re not supposed to do that. It’s very unsafe. I actually ended up, I went on a hike up in the mountain with two binders on and ended up bruising my ribs. And it ruined how I breath for a while. It was really hard for me to figure out how to breath fully again. But I was desperate to hide what I had.

So I had top surgery back in April of 2016. And that, to this day, is the best day of my life. My favorite day. Because I still, I’m trying so hard not to get emotional this whole time. But honestly, it has been the happiest day of my life because I still remember waking up and just – when I was a kid and I was praying to God, begging him to turn me into a boy, I would lay in bed in the morning and I would just look down at my chest. And you know how sometimes, when you’re laying there, everything’s kind of spread open, it’s flat. And so you’re just like, they’re gone. And then I’d sit up, “oh, there’s still there.” Every day. And I’d be checking. Did anything change? Did anything change? Nothing changed. But it’s 2016. God wasn’t just going to strike me with lightening and change me into a boy. But I got brought into the world during a time where science and medicine have evolved to the point where I can take care of this. I can fix this. And so it was like waking up like I had as a kid. I woke up from anesthesia and I looked down and it was flat. There was nothing there. And that’s what I had been begging God to do for so long. And it finally was real. And, so, being able to look down and just see, I’m flat there’s nothing there. I would do that 100 times over just for that. That was pure joy.

JEN:   The miracle that you always hoped for.

EMMETT:  Exactly. I want that for every single trans person, every single trans person who has gender dysphoria, I want them to be able to get that surgery because that was just everything or me. And I didn’t have to hide anymore. I didn’t have to bind anymore. I could breath fully. I didn’t have to cover up and wear sweaters and hoodies even when it was hot outside and I was sweating because I was so desperate to cover up. And I put myself in extremely uncomfortable situations to do so. And so it was just like so many things. I’m free. I’m free. I’m free. And I rarely wear a shirt because I waited 22 years to not have that burdening me anymore. So it was just an incredible, incredible experience.

JEN:   If anyone is listening and is wondering why so many of us advocate for insurance supporting these surgeries and for medical decisions to be allowed for these surgeries to be able to take place, I recommend going and finding Emmett’s video when they took off the bandages. And you can see that overwhelming emotion and just elation that he’s talking about here. You can see it in the moment. And we see that over and over and over again with trans men. Some trans men want to keep their breasts, and that’s fine. But for those who want to have them removed and they get an opportunity to have that surgery, it’s absolutely life changing. And that’s why we fight for it.

EMMETT:  Exactly. Exactly.

JEN:   OK. So, I’m going to jump again. I’m kind of jumping all over, sorry.

EMMETT:  You’re good.  You’re fine.

JEN:   I want to talk about dating. Dating is hard. I haven’t done it for a long time, but dating is hard in most circumstances. Dating as a trans man has to add a few challenges. And now you’re dating as a man that has an element of fame added into that mix. So talk to us about what dating has been like, like from the start. You had a girl in high school. And that was like totally pre-transition and up to now, what has dating been like?

EMMETT:  Oh, dating, dating, dating. Oh my goodness. There’s no good word for it. It’s been an experience. Let me tell you. I dated a lot when I was in Utah right at the beginning of my transition. I dated back, actually, at BYU Idaho, I was dating girls very secretly.

JEN:   Did you ever date boys? Anywhere in there did you date boys?

EMMETT:  I tried. I tried. I tried. And I’ve still tried post-transition I have tried. And there’s just something that it just doesn’t click for me.

JEN:   Just not there? OK.

EMMETT:  Exactly. But I did, again, this was still at BYUI and I was till pre-transition and everything. And I was like, this feels right being with a girl. It feels right but not as a girl. I don’t feel like a girl who likes girls. I feel like a boy who likes girls.

JEN:   How did you feel about the word “Lesbian” in that instance?

EMMETT:  I’m like, no, that’s not me. I was just like that’s not me, though. I don’t want to be your girlfriend. I’m your boyfriend. That’s how my mind went. I was dating girls, when I moved down to Utah and started transitioning, I was dating a girl from work and she just thought that I looked really young. I’d only been, maybe three months on T. I looked like I was 12 in my eyes. But she’s like, “No. You just look like you just got out of high school, I guess.” So I looked like a boy, but very very young. And I was very awkward at it. But I also was just like, I want to be the guy that I’ve always dreamt of being which is like a Prince Charming, a Disney prince.

I want to be a gentleman. I want to do all the things because I know what girls want. And, being raised as a girl, being socialized as a girl, for 21 years, I know what girls want. So I tried to do everything. I wanted to be romantic. I got flowers and chocolates. I would take them out on these cute dates. And it was amazing because it was I finally get to be on the side that I’ve been wanting to be on this whole time. I finally get to do this. I finally get to be the guy and do the traditional things. And I get to open the door and things like that. And that was super, super euphoric and validating for me to be able to be able to finally experience that and be on the other side. I’ve really enjoyed being the big spoon, the cuddler, the protector, the one that – you know, being told that I feel safe in your arms. I feel safe with you. You’re bigger than me. You can hold me. I love that.

It’s definitely had it’s challenges. There’s been people who as soon as I tell them I’m trans, “Oh, I’m sorry. I’m not actually interested in that.” And that’s fine. That’s their purgative. I totally get that. You’re attracted to what you’re attracted to.  So I don’t get offended by that. I does kind of hurt, but you’ve got to get over it because people have their preferences and I can’t be mad at somebody for not wanting to be with a trans man. I just can’t. I just can’t be mad. People are attracted to what they’re attracted to. So, the rejection has stung, but, for the most part, I have had some really beautiful experiences with people who are very willing to learn, very open. And the people that I’ve dated have always been very, very forward with the fact that they’re like, “I see you as a man. You are a man.” So my insecurities when they get in the way, they’ve always been very good about, “No. No. No. No. No.That’s not an issue for me. You are a man.” But I’ve had a lot of work that I’ve had to do on myself internally because I’ve gotten in my own way and self-sabotaged certain relationships because I’m too in my head. I’m like, “There’s no way you can like me. I’m trans.” This whole narrative that I was raised in thinking that I’m not worthy of being loved because I’m different. I’m rewriting that.

JEN:   That’s awesome. So, in addition to acting. You have long been a singer. A common thing which I think is super interesting for trans men is when you all document the deepening of your voices, when you see the videos two weeks on T, three months on T, six months on T. It’s getting lower. And this is obviously, most often a really joyous thing. It causes a lot of gender euphoria. It cause for celebration. But, for singers, there’s a little extra nuance that’s kind of hanging in there. Can you talk about your experience with that?

EMMETT:  Yeah. I used to be an alto. And I used to have really great control over my voice. And I did start documenting. Every month I would make a video and my voice would drop. And I got really excited at first. But, then, when I would try to sing in the car, because singing is a way for me to relieve stress. And the songs that I normally could sing without a problem, all of the sudden were, like, impossible to sing. I could not hit the notes that I normally did. And if I tried, I sounded like a donkey. My voice was cracking all the time. And it was so frustrating because I could feel my vocal chords get stuck almost, like, physically stuck. And nothing would come out but air, just like a whistle. And it was so frustrating.

I stopped singing for a while because it’s not working. The deep voice is great, and I don’t get questioned anymore when I’m on the phone. I don’t get, who is this? I’m trying to get a hold of this person, but you don’t sound like – I was getting a bunch of euphoria from the voice drop. But then I was extremely sad because music’s super important to me. And all the sudden, the songs that I used to vent and to get out all my negative emotions, I couldn’t sing anymore. So then I was angry because I was like, well now I don’t know how to get out my emotions. Now I have to figure out new things to do. It was really hard. But I did start taking a couple of lessons with a vocal coach. I just started embracing what my voice could do now. But I had to wait a little while, actually, for my voice to settle and stop cracking. It took a couple of years. I’m not going to lie.

JEN:   So you’re like a 12 year old boy, but you’re 21.

EMMETT:  Yeah. Exactly. And think about how long puberty takes. You start puberty at 11, 12 years old and it goes until you’re 18. But, then, at the same time, you’re still growing and developing and your brain’s still developing. So I just needed to be patient with myself and kind with myself. And now I’m at a good point where I’ve made peace with I cannot sing those notes anymore. They’re gone. But I still have my falsetto. I still can hit these notes. I can hit deep notes. And now I want to role with that. And what are my strengths, let’s go with it. Let’s use what we’ve got and not get hung up on what I lost. So I’m moving forward with what I do have and I’m really excited. I have some really good stuff coming up and I’m super stoked because I feel like I’m finally able to share what’s been in my heart and in my head for so long but as the real me.

JEN:   I’m going to interject again for the listening audience. Emmett has a couple, a series -- I don’t know what we’d call it – some videos that he’s released that are actually duets with himself from the past. So it’s like pretransition Emmett and post-transition and claiming the voice Emmett singing the duet together. These are beautiful, just quality alone beautiful. But extra beautiful because it’s like the merging of appreciating who you were and celebrating who you became. And it’s lovely. So I want to encourage everybody to find those. We’re going to have a bunch of show note links so you guys can find these things. But it’s actually really amazing. Especially because so many trans people really need to avoid all of their pretransition stuff. And so it’s like a little extra rare. And I love it.

EMMETT:  Thank you.

JEN:   So, you come home from your mission, you head to Utah, you start transitioning and then you think, “Hmm. I think I’m going to move to California and become an actor.” And that’s terrifying.

EMMETT:  Yes.

JEN:   But why acting?

EMMETT:  It’s the cliché, everyone says this, but I was acting as a child. I loved being in musicals, musical theater growing up I was a little performer. Always, always performing, always putting on plays for my parents. I was that kid. But, honestly, acting was a way for me, as a kid growing up trans and not having the words for it, it was a way for me to dress up and be somebody else and get out of this uncomfortable, you know, this is not really who I am. But, for this show, I get to dress up and be somebody else and it’s okay. And I was always volunteering to be the guys. Like, “Oh, you need a guy but there’s not enough. I’ll do it. I don’t mind.” Being able to put on the mustache or wear the boy clothes, like, I didn’t know at the time that I was experiencing gender euphoria by doing those things. I didn’t know that by asking my mom when I was in kindergarten if I could be a boy for Halloween and she let me. She put my hair up, pulled it back, drew a moustache on me. I got to wear my brother’s clothes. And I was so freaking happy. I asked her to do it the next year and she was like, “No.”

JEN:   That’s a one-time activity.

EMMETT:  Exactly. Exactly. But I didn’t know at the time that was giving me gender euphoria. It just felt like a relief. I was so happy being able to dress up. So, playing other characters helped me escape from the character that I had to play every single day. And I’ve just always loved telling stories. There is so much power in telling stories. There’s so much power that comes with entertainment and media. And I’ve seen how movies can change and shape the way that people think. And so I knew that I wanted to be a part of this story telling where I can tell stories about people who have been ostracized or who are outsiders or who are misunderstood and help showcase their lives in a positive way. And help change the narrative and help change the way that people think about these people.

So that’s why I knew I wanted to be very open about my journey, my transition. I wanted to be openly a trans actor. I wanted to tell trans stories. I just want to make a difference. I want to help somebody because I know, growing up my parents wanted me to do a medical thing and I started doing it. And I passed out watching a surgery. That’s not what I’m meant for. I could barely handle my own stitches from surgery, like I would pass out doing my own stitches. It’s bad. So I knew that I wanted to help people. But it wasn’t going to be through the medical field. It wasn’t going to be that way.

JEN:   You had to have been  a little bit terrified that being a trans actor would destroy your career. Do you think it has?

EMMETT:  No. If anything, it’s helped. I have had so many amazing experiences and opportunities come my way because I’ve been openly trans. I did have an agent at one time who told me that I should actually go stealth and not be openly trans because I wasn’t going to get cast. And this was when I was living in Utah. And I was like, “I did not transition to go back in the closet. That’s not what I’m here for. I’m here to make a difference. I’m here to help people.” Especially because any time I’ve ever had a stressful day or I’ve been depressed or I’ve just needed something to lift me up, I usually watch a video. Something that’s got something inspiring. And those are the kinds of things that keep me going. And I want to be a part of those things that help people going. So I knew that I had to be vocal. I was not going to go quiet and go back in the closet. So that’s when I was like, “Okay. Utah is not the place for me, then. I have to go LA.” And it was the scariest, scariest thing I’ve done.

JEN:   I bet.

EMMETT:  So, freaking scary coming out here. And it’s still scary. I’ve had incredible jobs and incredible opportunities and met some of the most amazing people. But then we’re on strike right now. There’s a lot of stuff going on. It’s a wild time to be alive and it’s a wild time to be out in LA right now.

JEN:   So you’ve had quite a bit of success. I mean, you’ve only moved a couple years ago. I listed a bunch of these jobs and opportunities in your bio. I think I’ve seen most of them. But, can we talk about the Good Doctor character for a minute.

EMMETT:  Yes.

JEN:   You’re playing a trans man who became pregnant and had some tough choices to make. And while I was watching it, I knew you when, back in the early days. And I was really curious about how much you had to prepare for this role or how much you were like, “These are some things I’ve already thought about a million times.” Talk to us about that, like, getting ready for that character and the statement that it made.

EMMETT:  Yeah. I was really honored to be able to play the role of Rio. Personally, I could never carry a child. The thought of getting pregnant and carrying a child, like, it would’ve made me so uncomfortable. It would’ve given me so much dysphoria. I would not have been able to handle it. This episode taught me so much about the trans men who do go through with it. and how beautiful of a thing it is. If your body is able, it doesn’t matter if you’re a girl or a boy. It doesn’t matter what sex or gender you are. If you have those organs and you’re able to carry a child, that is a beautiful thing. But I learned so much because they hired a bunch of trans consultants for the show. They wanted to get it right.

JEN:   And they did.

EMMETT:  And they did. And I’m really grateful that they really did their research. But it taught me a lot. And I didn’t even realize that if a trans man wants to carry a child, they have to go off T. And then you start getting the effects of before, the estrogen and all that stuff.

JEN:   Another puberty.

EMMETT:  Yeah. And it messes with your mind and your mental health. It’s a very significant decision to make. It’s very important and scary. And so I learned a lot and was able to gain a lot more insight and a lot more compassion for my trans brothers who go through this and then get so much hate for it when it’s a beautiful thing. I get that it looks different. And when things are different, people are just like, “That’s weird.” But that’s just because it’s not being talked about enough. So we need to normalize this stuff. So that episode was so important because it was such a big show. It’s my mom’s favorite show, so she was really proud.

JEN:   I love that.

EMMETT:  Yeah. And so it was like, everyone is seeing this. This is something that needs to be talk about because it is happening more than you think. It’s just not being talked about.

JEN:   It’s such an important and complicated topic and I love that they just dove in.

EMMETT:  They dove in.

JEN:   That’s the kind of thing I think a lot of shows are like, “That’s a lot. We’re going to skip that.” But you guys brought it to the forefront and you humanized it all. And you started conversations about it. That’s probably my favorite out of the stuff I’ve seen you do.

EMMETT:  Thank you.

JEN:   Because it was so powerful and impactful and real. So, this is also kind of a weird question, but I think a lot of people in the world, including myself, have this illusion of actors where there’s like extreme wealth and fame or extreme poverty and you never have a job ever. Right now, though, there’s a pretty big issue in your world and you touched on this before when it comes to regular old working people actors getting a job and getting a pay check. So, did you want to talk for a minute about how the writer’s strike is personally impacting you and if there’s things us average watchers can do? We want to be supportive, but what do we do?

EMMETT:  So there’s a lot going on right now. The writer’s strike started everything. Writers weren’t getting paid fairly. And that trickled over into us because if you don’t have writers then you don’t have work for actors. And then, it came around to our contract coming up and being we want things to be fair. You all are being super greedy. And they weren’t willing to meet our demands, so we had to go on strike. So now SAG is on strike as well. All the actors are on strike. And it’s just starting to be, everybody’s contracts in the entertainment industry are coming up, no one’s willing to mee the new, fair demands, and so nobody’s working. We’re all on strike. It’s been very, very stressful, very difficult. And you have people who are award winning artist, people who have so much to their name, but that doesn’t matter now because we all have to try find regular jobs. And our resumes don’t match up with all these other jobs. So, it’s honestly, when people are like, “Well, just go get a regular job.” I’m like, do you understand what that entails.

JEN:   We weren’t trained on Google Docs.

EMMETT:  Exactly. Like we have certain skills because that’s for our career. I can’t just all of the sudden develop all these skills for a different career path. This is my career. And everything has just been halted. So I’m working with a bunch of other artists right now. We’re really just trying to keep each other positive. We’re trying to help each other through the strike. We’re trying to talk about it and make content. But, really it comes down to the whole starving artist thing. We’re starving artist because there are a select few people who are lining their pockets with obscene amounts of money and we’re not getting paid fairly. We’ve never been paid fairly. And the ones, the actors who are making tons of money are the big, big names that you hear that are household names. I am not a household name. So it has been kind of frustrating to see friends and family and people that don’t know me being like, “You’ve been on these big shows. You should be making tons of money.” And I’m like, I should be making more money than I have been, but I’m not.

JEN:   At least a living wage.

EMMETT:  At least a living wage. That’s the thing. So, my career is very gig-based. I don’t get a set, you get this pay check every two weeks. It’s, hey you got a job, they’re going to pay you this much money. Now you need to make that last and ration it out until your next job which, you don’t know when it’s going to be. It’s super stressful. And I don’t like that I’m passionate about something that’s so stressful. Like I really wish I was passionate about numbers, but I’m not. So, of course, the career path that I’m the most passionate about is also very stressful and I don’t like stress. But I wouldn’t be staying in it if I didn’t love it and I wasn’t passionate about it. If I was doing this for the money, I would’ve left LA years ago. But I’m here because I believe in what I’m doing and I just know that things are going to get better. And, once we win, people are going to be less starving artist and will get paid fairly, and will be able to get back to work. I’m ready. I am so ready to just make a difference, to tell these stories. I want to work. I’m ready to work.

JEN:   I love that. I keep saying bright light. I don’t know a better descriptor for you. I should’ve googled a thesaurus before. But sometimes this topic can feel a little dark and you talked about those dark phases very, very real. And that’s sometimes when parents get included. So you join in in the dark, drudgery, torment part. And so I just want to tell you have grateful I am that you’ve come and shared the light that comes on the other side of that to give not just – our listeners are generally parents – to give them some hope so that they can trickle that down to their kids. Yep, it’s hard. But the whole world is open to you. Your potential is limitless. We’re going to get through this and you’re going to have an amazing life. And that’s kind of the energy and the story you tell just by the way that you exist and communicate. I love it

EMMETT:  Thank you. And thank you. seriously. I think it is such a privilege to be at the point now where I’m going to be eight years on T next month. My transition no longer stresses me out. My transition is no longer the thing that I’m worried about. There are days where I will have long periods of time where I forget I’m trans. Where I’m just like, “I’m just a dude. I’m just a guy.” And my problems are no longer trans related. My problems are just world problems, real, regular life problems. And that is a huge, huge privilege. And that’s what I wish for every trans person, that they don’t have to worry about their transition anymore. It’s done. They are themselves. They are authentically, genuinely themselves. They’re happy in their bodies. And they don’t have to worry about that. That’s my wish for everyone.

That’s my wish for every person in general, to just not have to worry about how they look or what their body is like to just have regular every day problems, that’s the dream. So I just really want whoever listens to this to know that there is a bright future ahead. They say it gets better and it is true. It does get better. But you have to be willing to fight for yourself and you have to push through when people share their negative opinions of you. And they don’t know anything about you. You can’t take it personally. You have to let that go and just know that you know who you are. And that’s the most important thing is you know who you are. And as long as you know that, nobody can take that from you. That is a power. That is a strength. And that strength, that is what kept me going through the past eight years when I get the negative comments, when I get the hate because I am feeling joy. I am feeling absolute joy in my body. Being able to see myself in the mirror and to like what I see, finally. And I didn’t have that as an 11-year-old. It’s just pure joy. I want that so much for every young trans kid out there.

JEN:   So we’re on the same team there. Thank you again for sharing your time with us. I know it’s valuable and I appreciate it. You’re awesome.

EMMETT:  Thank you for having me so much. Thank you.

JEN:          Thanks so much for joining us here in the den. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with your friends. We’d also love it if you could take a minute to leave us a positive rating and review on whatever platform you’re listening to us on. Good reviews make us more visible and help us reach more folks who could benefit from listening. But, review or not, we’re glad you’re here. For more information on Mama Dragons and the podcast, you can visit our website at mamdragons.org or follow us on Instagram or Facebook. And if you’d like to help Mama Dragons in our mission to support, educate, and empower the parents of LGBTQ children, donate at mamadragons.org or click the donate link in the show notes.