In this week’s episode of In the Den, Jen sits down with Emmy award-winning transgender filmmaker Asher May-Corsini as he discusses his experiences of pursuing a career in the American film industry. He shares some of his favorite memories in making the Mama Dragons documentary, and how that experience changed him forever. He also offers insights into what brings him fulfillment as a filmmaker and where he finds queer joy in his life.
Special Guest: Asher May-Corsini
Asher is a New York City native who fell in love with film after watching The Wizard of Oz as a child. He spent most of his adolescence with a camera in his hand, attending film school after film school. While his career has taken him on beautiful and unexpected adventures, he always believes that the best is yet to come. Asher has worked in media for over ten years and has a track record of proven successes in branded content and documentary film. Asher has established himself as a big-picture thinker and is known as someone who can be leaned on for creative ideation and problem-solving.
Asher has received tremendous acclaim for his varied work in the industry. His talent spans all production facets, from pre-production to field production to post-production. As a transgender man, Asher focuses much of his attention on LGBTQ+ issues and uses his platform to amplify LGBTQ+ people and their stories. Asher still spends his free time with a camera in his hand, waiting for the magic to happen.
Links from the Show:
In the Den is made possible by generous donors like you.
Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today at www.mamadragons.org.
Connect with Mama Dragons:
Website
Instagram
Facebook
Donate to this podcast
In this week’s episode of In the Den, Jen sits down with Emmy award-winning transgender filmmaker Asher May-Corsini as he discusses his experiences of pursuing a career in the American film industry. He shares some of his favorite memories in making the Mama Dragons documentary, and how that experience changed him forever. He also offers insights into what brings him fulfillment as a filmmaker and where he finds queer joy in his life.
Special Guest: Asher May-Corsini
Asher is a New York City native who fell in love with film after watching The Wizard of Oz as a child. He spent most of his adolescence with a camera in his hand, attending film school after film school. While his career has taken him on beautiful and unexpected adventures, he always believes that the best is yet to come. Asher has worked in media for over ten years and has a track record of proven successes in branded content and documentary film. Asher has established himself as a big-picture thinker and is known as someone who can be leaned on for creative ideation and problem-solving.
Asher has received tremendous acclaim for his varied work in the industry. His talent spans all production facets, from pre-production to field production to post-production. As a transgender man, Asher focuses much of his attention on LGBTQ+ issues and uses his platform to amplify LGBTQ+ people and their stories. Asher still spends his free time with a camera in his hand, waiting for the magic to happen.
Links from the Show:
In the Den is made possible by generous donors like you.
Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today at www.mamadragons.org.
Connect with Mama Dragons:
Website
Instagram
Facebook
Donate to this podcast
JEN: Hello and welcome. You are listening to In the Den with Mama Dragons. I’m your host, Jen. This podcast was created out of our desire to walk and talk with you through this journey of raising happy, healthy, and productive LGBTQ humans. We are so happy that you’re here with us.
This week I am excited because we are having a conversation with Asher May-Corsini. Asher is a New York City native who fell in love with film after watching The Wizard of Oz as a child. He spent most of his adolescence with a camera in his hand, attending film school after film school. While his career has taken him on a beautiful and unexpected adventure, he always believes that the best is yet to come. Asher has worked in media for over ten years and has received tremendous acclaim for his varied work in the industry. As a transgender man, Asher focuses much of his attention on LGBTQ+ issues and uses his platform to amplify LGBTQ+ people and their stories. Welcome Asher!
ASHER: Thanks for having me.
JEN: I’m excited to get to know you a little bit and share your story with our listeners. I know that you were born and raised in New York City, so let’s start there. Tell us about your childhood in New York and particularly how you began to discover your place in the LGBTQ community.
ASHER: Yeah. Well, Thanks for having me. I’m really happy to be here. Yeah. I was born and raised in New York City on the upper east side. And my parents couldn’t have been more different from one another. My mom was sort of this hippie Woodstock loving actress. And my father was a businessman who was a little bit more conservative in his life and not a hipster type of guy. So there was a very different vibe coming from each of my parents.
JEN: It sounds like a movie script.
ASHER: A little bit. They were also 25 years apart in age. So there was a lot of generational divides going on. But I was lucky that I had my mom who was sort of this free spirit, really pushed me and my sister to be ourselves and to dive into whatever made us happy. I remember her best friend at the time was this man named Eric, and he was a gay man. And that was my first introduction into anything LGBTQ. It was during the AIDS epidemic and he ultimately ended up getting AIDS and dying. But I remember being with my mom and we would break him out of the hospital and we would do all these things. We would take him apple picking. And I remember, then, people didn’t know anything about how you got it or it was contracted. We would put our clothes in the washing machine before we got in the apartment. It was the whole thing. So my mom was always very much a part of that community even though she didn’t identify as LGBTQ herself. She was just in that world and had a lot of friends in that world. And so I saw it at a young age. I didn’t see trans representation anywhere. But I knew that I was different. I knew I was a tomboy. I played a lot of sports. I didn’t like, I would throw a fit any time she tried to put me in a dress. But I didn’t really know what it meant, you know? And, I remember walking down the street one day with my mom. I must’ve been, I don’t even know, six, maybe younger. And there was a homeless man, or a homeless person on the street and he looked like a man but he had a tiara and a tutu on. And I remember asking my mom, “Why is this guy dressed as a girl?” I was trying to make sense of it. And she goes, some people feel that they’re not the gender they’re born. And so this person might feel like they’re a woman and so they’re dressing like a woman. And I remember it was that moment and it clicked for me. And I was like, “Oh, my God, I’m this person on the street. I’m not meant to be in this body.” But I didn’t say anything.
JEN: About what time is this, like 1990?
ASHER: Yeah. Yeah. I was born in 1985.
JEN: So your mom was really ahead of the curve.
ASHER: She knew her stuff. She had been around.
JEN: That’s awesome.
ASHER: It was really awesome. And I just remember that it clicked. And I didn’t say anything and I just kept it close to my chest. And I was like, this is my problem. I have this problem. But there was, again, no real representation, I think. So I just went around living my life. I’d wear baggy clothes and do the thing. And then I came out as a lesbian and I never really wanted to because I didn’t think it was true. I wasn’t a woman and so that term didn’t really sit right with me. But there was no other way, at the time, to tell people who you were.
JEN: And how old were you when you came out as lesbian?
ASHER: I was older. So I think I didn’t tell her until I was 16, maybe 18.
JEN: And were you dating girls?
ASHER: Not really. It would be, it was sort of just something that was unsaid. I think it was very obvious that I was gay. But nobody, we just didn’t talk about it. And what’s so interesting about that, I think about this all the time, growing up in a place in New York city that is very eccentric, is very different, my mom was a very open and honest woman. And I couldn’t muster it up to tell my truth. There was just such a stigma around it back in those days irregardless of where you grew up. But, all that said, I had a great upbringing. And, once I did sort of come out to my family and my friends for the first time, there was no love lost. It was just, “Okay. Great.” I remember the time when I told my mom. She was like, “I’ve experimented.” I was like, “We don’t need to talk about this anymore.” She said “I experimented, I broke this one’s heart.” I’m like, “OK, we’re good. Let’s move on.” And so it was always well received. And someone else in my family said, “You know. I appreciate you telling me this, but I don’t go around telling people I’m straight.” It’s just, you shouldn’t have to do that and that’s sort of what I was met with a lot. Like, “Okay. Got it. Let’s move on.”
JEN: I know who to line you up with now.
ASHER: Yeah. It’s like a nice place to be. But, you know, coming to terms with being trans. I had always known it. And ever since that day that I had seen that person. And then “Boys Don’t Cry” came out. so I don’t know what that puts us in. But I went to see it with a few friends. And I remember sitting there and being like, “Oh, shit.”
JEN: This was 1999.
ASHER: So, I forgot how old I was at the time. But I remember it was only playing at Indy film houses in the city and there was no seats left. We had to sit on the floor. It was one of those film houses. And I remember being like, “This is what I need to do. I need to do this, what Brandon did.” And then you see that bad things happen. And then, whoa, whoa, whoa, I’m keeping this close to the chest. I don’t want to die, right?
JEN: Did you kind of think like, I’ll keep being a lesbian and it’ll be fine?
ASHER: Yeah.
JEN: I’ll try to be a masculine lesbian and I’ll be fine. I’ll just do that instead?
ASHER: I think that I didn't think I’d be fine, but I thought I didn’t have a choice.
JEN: OK.
ASHER: I thought that I didn’t know how to even begin to do this because there was – other than that movie – there was nothing showing me anyone like me or that you could be okay. You could be successful. I didn’t know what surgeries looked like. I didn’t know how you reinvent yourself. I thought, okay, maybe I just move out of state and completely disconnect from all my family and friends and start new. That’s what Brandon did in the movie. They just went somewhere new and took on a new persona. Is that what I do? I couldn’t say goodbye to my family. There was all these conflicting things in my head about what the next steps would be and all of them just seemed insurmountable for a kid in high school. I just didn’t know what to do. So I just didn’t do anything. And then, Chas Bono came around and they were out. And, okay, there’s a little bit more but still it wasn’t quite enough. And so I just sort of sat on it for a handful more years. and I never told anybody. I kept it to myself until I met my ex-wife. And we were dating. And one night, I just told her. I said, “Listen. This is the truth about me. I’m never going to do anything about it. Just to be clear. But this is how I feel.” And she was great. She was like, “Okay. Whatever you want. If you ever do decide to do anything about it, I’m here. and if you don’t, okay. We’ll navigate together.” And that was the first time I had said the words, really, out loud to somebody. And I still didn’t do anything about it for, I would say, probably another five years.
JEN: So I want to stop for a second because the narrative we hear a lot right now in the media is “The parents push people to be trans. Or it’s really popular to be trans. Or it’s a trend.” But when you actually start talking to trans people, and I hope that our listeners are talking to more and more all of the time and listening more and more because the legislative world is a little messy and scary for trans people right now. I want to highlight that you had a mom who was already accepting of a guy on the street, who had talked to you openly about it. You lived in New York City. Your peers were like, “Whatever. We don’t care.” And you still were moving through the experience being like “This is too hard. I don’t want to. It’s probably true but I don’t really want it to be true. So I’m going to delay it.” And we hear that over and over and over and over from trans people. And it totally contradicts this false narrative that it exists out there that it’s some super cool thing. And people are rushing. And they’re in this big hurry. And their parents are pushing it. It’s just not true. So I just wanted to stop for a minute and highlight for the listener that when you’re hearing those stories, in your mind there’s this, “That’s not true. And that’s not how it happens.” And if there’s this one kid, one time in California who regrets their transition because it moved too fast, there’s 2,000 trans people who did the exact opposite. So I just wanted to stop you for a second and interrupt you right in the middle of your story.
ASHER: I think that’s a really good thing to highlight because I think that there’s so much shame. It was internalized transphobia. It was internalized shame of who I was because the media and people just in the world, would use any LGBTQ moniker as an insult, right? And so I knew that I was frowned upon. I knew it. It didn’t matter that my Mom would be okay with it. It didn’t matter that my friends would be okay with it. What would the world think of me? Would I be a freak? Would I be this? Would I be that? Will I ever work? I mean, I think that there’s all these things that go unsaid that you internalize regardless of your support system. And I think it’s really hard. And even in the beginnings of my transition, I would still sort of feel that way sometimes when I didn’t pass in the world. And it’s hard because you have to break down years and years of conditioning that being gay, being lesbian, being trans is not okay and it’s something to be ashamed of. And It’s Not! But it’s a lot of that internalized hate from outer forces that is ultimately what delays most people.
JEN: I was recently talking to an individual who was like, “They’re trying to normalize it.” And I was like, “Oh, yes. We are.” That is exactly right. Yes. We are.
ASHER: I also think, for me at least, when I did finally come out, there was an urgency to my transition. I wanted to medically transition as quickly as possible because I had lost so many years in the right body that I was like, “Let’s go.” And there's also this misinformation that I can just waltz into a clinic or hospital and get this care or get surgeries. First off, there’s wait lists for years. Secondly, the barrier to entry is incredibly high. You have to get three letters, all this stuff, the barrier to entry to get any of these sorts of medical transition care is very high. So you can’t just walk into a doctor’s office and be like, “Hello. I would like top surgery today.” And they’re like, “Okay. Wait in line.” There’s a lot that goes into each one of these things, even hormones. So it’s just false.
JEN: And how old were you when you started your transition?
ASHER: Gosh. I think I was, I probably should look that up. I think it was in 2019 I started transitioning.
JEN: You weren’t a minor. All of these barricades and hoops and gatekeeping, and you weren’t even a kid.
ASHER: No. That was probably. I’m 38 now. I don't know, I’m not a mathematician. But, in 2019 is when I started the process, started the hormones and all that stuff.
JEN: Did you have any sort of religious affiliation or community you were participating in as a child or was that not even part of the experience for you?
ASHER: You know, as my mom is an eccentric woman, she dabbled in religion for a moment. She believed God was everywhere. So she would just, she said you could meditate and God would be with you or whatever. But, for a brief moment in time, she did join a very well-to-do church in the city called Saint Barts. And she made my sister and I be in Christmas pageants and all sorts of things. I was the star angel one year. It was a big win for our family. And then she’s like, “This place is really political. This religion can be very political and I don’t want anything to do with it.” I think something about, I think, maybe the next year, my sister didn’t get the dancing angel in the pageant or all this. I don't know. But we did go through, like, maybe a year or two where we would go to church. And I did the, what is it, not a communion, a communion maybe? And then it was very short lived. I was never sort of indoctrinated with the “God’s going to judge you or shame you!” or anything like that.
JEN: So you didn’t have concerns that God hated you and that’s why God put you in the wrong body or anything?
ASHER: No.
JEN: Oh good.
ASHER: It was more societal for me. But I would imagine, just knowing how I felt by society, that if you had an extra layer and you really did believe that God was going to spite you or hate you, that would be really hard to contend with, right? So I sort of get it. I get how that is such a bigger cross to bear.
JEN: So a common fear expressed by the members of our group, especially as they’re first joining, is they have a trans child – or really any queer child, but a little elevated with the trans kids – that their kids will struggle with dating. That they’ll never have relationships. So can we talk about that? How has dating worked out for you, before transition, after transition? It’s okay to admit that there’s some challenges. But can we talk about dating?
ASHER: Yeah. So, dating. So, pretransition, like I said, I never felt right as a lesbian. I lived a very heteronormative life. My friends were all sort of like girls and straight girls and men and whatever. And I didn’t really find that I fit into the LGBTQ spaces a lot because I didn’t identify that way. But, again, how are you going meet women when you’re a woman navigating the world. So I would go on dates and everything was fine. My first, when I met my ex-wife, I felt like she really saw me. And we were together for 10 years. I think we met when I was 26. Anyway, we were together for 10 years. We broke up two years ago. So I have been sort of single now. I had never had dated as a man before. So I transitioned with my wife. And so it was all very the same, really. Things had changed a little bit, but mainly our relationship remained the same. But, now that I’m single, it’s a very different experience because there’s apps and there’s this and that. and also, being trans is not this hidden secret anymore. For a while, when I first went through the divorce, I’m like, am I going to disclose on the app that I’m trans? Or am I going to roll the dice or what do I do? And ultimately, I do disclose because that’s, for me, the right thing to do. And I don’t want to date someone who wouldn’t want to date a trans person. But it’s been different in the ways of just like, you’re paying for all the dates. And it is, I do find that I’ll be talking to a girl on one of the apps and things are good and we’re having a great back and forth. And then, all of the sudden, she disappears. And I think, what happens is, my spidey-sense is that she goes back through my profile, she sees that I’m trans, and that’s a deal breaker. And she unmatches. And I’ve had that happen a bit. And it’s, I would say, at first I would get upset by it. I would think, “What the Hell. You were attracted to me. We had a good back-and-forth. So what’s the exact problem you’re worried about? Is it some of my parts? What are we contending with?” But, now, I’ve sort of reached a place where I’m like, “If this isn’t what you’re interested in, fine!” I can’t take it personally any more. But that, for a while, was a little tricky. But, I think for me, it’s been really nice to sort of date as who I am and to date the people that I ultimately want to be with and that want to be with me. So I’ve been having a lot of fun, honestly. I have a good time. I think it’s also tricky for me, at least, when I meet someone in the wild, kind of contending with the old fashioned way in a bar, at an event, and then disclosing. I’m really open about who I am and, you know, my transness. So, if anyone does any light stalking, they’ll probably figure it out pretty quickly. But, to me, I always kind of lead with it. And, if someone doesn’t want to date me because of it, then fine. But it’s a mixed bag, I would say. I’ve never had anything crazy happen.
JEN: I had never thought about technology being a help. Like when you were saying a little light stalking. Because I always wondered, how do you bring that up?
ASHER: Yeah. So, actually, I was seeing this girl, last summer or something. And most women, I will say – on the first date it used to drive me crazy until this one experience – will allude to some sort of queer activity. And I’m like, “Why are you even telling me this. I’m a straight guy, man. You don’t need to tell me this. I’m just like every other guy.” And it really used to bother me. And then the opposite happened where I was seeing this girl and she did not allude to anything. In fact, she would allude to the business bro she had dated. And I was like, “Oh, no. Did she not read it?” And so finally, I was like, “Have you ever been with a trans guy before?” And she was like, “No.” And I was like, “Okay. Well, it’s a little different.” And she goes, “Honestly, I didn’t think about it. I don’t really care” And I was like, THAT is the right answer. That put me so at ease. But I was so in my own shit about it that I felt like she must not have known or something. So it was a weird moment for me, at least. Her answer, I told all my friends, “Can you believe this girl? She had this answer and it was amazing!” But, that’s where I hope to get in all the dealings I have. But it is interesting to date as a trans guy, especially because I identify as a straight man. It’s definitely a different space to be in than I think other trans people might find themselves in.
JEN: We all want our kids to find love and happiness and social acceptance. But, another common fear is that their trans child will struggle with a career. You even mentioned yourself that you were afraid of that for yourself. So you can see how parents would be concerned about this. And, on that light, jobs are hard anyway. I want to talk about what it looks like to just live and be yourself and have a successful career. Because, clearly, you have had a very successful career so far. And you're still super young.
ASHER: Yeah.
JEN: So you graduate high school and you head off to college to study film? Tell me about your career. How did it get started? Where did you go?
ASHER: So I always hated school. I didn’t understand. I always wanted to go into film. I thought I was going to be, like the next big Spielberg. And I just never understood why I had to go to high school if I knew what I wanted to do. But, I guess that’s not how it works. So I went off to college and I didn’t take it very seriously. I went to school in Florida – never again – I went to school in Florida. I came back after a year. This city kid could not live here. Too many traffic stops and whatever.
JEN: Were you studying film in Florida?
ASHER: I was studying television production because they didn’t have film as a major at the school I went to. But then I came back and sort of took a year off, and found myself at Brooklyn College. Which is a city school here in the city. And they had a film marketing major with film production. So I did a dual. I had been in film schools. I had gone to a, when I was in high school, I went to the New York Film Academy. My parents lied about my age and got me into a night program there. So I did that. And then I went off to summer camps that were for directors. And I would do that. And I was just always really interested in film. I think a lot of it was that you could disassociate from your life when you’re watching TV. And you can also see any representation is so important. And so I was in Brooklyn College. And I had a buddy who said, “I know you’re looking for a part time job. ABC News is hiring. I think that you should apply.” And I was like, “Okay.” So I applied and I got this very entry level job. Essentially they had a backlog of all their old tapes of 1950s sort of tapes and they needed someone to digitize them, literally just putting in a tape, hitting record. Putting in a tape and hit record. And I did that for three years. The recession just hit. I was in college. I did it on the side. And my boss came to me and was like, ‘What are you doing here? Don’t’ you want something more than this?” And he had sent me this job posting from ABC in marketing department and I went and interviewed and got the job. And that’s sort of like what got my career going. I really hustled. And, at the time, I wasn’t out as a lesbian at work or trans. I was just trying to get by. But about a year into that job, I met my ex-wife and then I came out and sort of came clean on social media and people started knowing. And it didn’t affect my job at all. In fact, I was more one of the guys once that happened than before. And then I had an opportunity. I got recruited from CNN for a Great Big Story, which is how Mama Dragons all came about. And I remember thinking, “Oh, this isn't as corporate. This is a little cooler. This is a good place for me to be.” And I could really be my authentic self there. so I took the job and we started telling stories of trans people. And no one was saying anything mean. There was no jabs. There was this family that they’re all transitioning. Let’s go tell that story. I did Mama Dragons. And what really struck me when we did the Mama Dragons Doc, which I’m sure we’ll get to later, was that I was talking to these kids who had so many more barriers to entry than I did that were putting it all on the line to be themselves. And I remember coming back from it and being, “I’m so dishonest with myself. And I’m not giving myself all of what I can be.” And it was shortly after that, maybe a year, that I came out to my then wife, to my family, and then socially. And my career sky-rocketed ever since I transitioned. Since I started socially and medically transitioning, I did Great Big Story, I got a promotion at another place. Then I got recruited back to ABC as a higher position. Got promoted again to a higher position. I think when you’re feeling comfortable with yourself, the sky’s the limit and people see that. And I lead with it. I’ve never hidden my transness ever since my medical transition started or my social transition started .It’s in my cover letters. It’s on my LinkedIn profile. I lead with it because I think that people should know and that it’s, you need people like me in the building. And so, for me, I’ve only seen being transgender and being out with it as a value-add. And I think a lot of companies do too. I think there’s this worry that people won’t get hired. And I think we have a lot of work to do in the representation in the trans community. I believe I’m the highest out trans person in ABC news now. And I’m a safe trans person. I look the part. I act the part. But what about someone pre-op or someone who doesn’t want to medically transition? Or someone who’s nonbinary. There’s so much more room to grow. But I think it’s opening the doors. And I think that it’s been such a wild adventure to see how I was pre-socially transitioning to where my career is now. It’s just crazy. And I also think, not to go on too much of a tangent, but I think I advocate for myself much more now than I ever have before. Before it was just, “I’ll get what I get and I won’t get upset.” Now, I’m like, “I don’t think that’s right.” You feel yourself more. You know your value more. You feel truer to yourself. And so you’re able to have conversations to help lift yourself and to move yourself up.
JEN: The first time I encountered you, you weren’t aware of it. You didn’t know that I was encountering you. But it was the project you mentioned. It was, I think 2018. And you did a documentary called Mama Dragons. It’s just this little tender 15 minutes. But it’s really powerful. And it won several awards which is very cool in a competitive field like yours. And I’m interested to hear what motivated you into that project and I loved that you shared how it changed you, already. But can we talk about that, because this is a Mama Dragons podcast, and let’s talk about us for a little bit.
ASHER: Yeah. I came across Mama Dragons in an NPR article. I was reading this. I was looking for stories. And I saw this article and I thought something’s interesting here. And I’ve always been fascinated with the cross-sectionality of LGBTQ and religion because, to me it’s just so fraught for lack of a better word as someone who’s not involved in it. And I found this article and I pitched it like I would pitch any other video I would produce. And it got a yellow light. And they said, “Listen. It’s not visual. What are we going to see?” This was really their feedback. “It’s a great article. But how are you putting this into a video. How are you making this into a visually engaging story?” I was like, “Great question.” And I started calling Mama Dragons. And, at first, I think I linked up with Julie. Yeah. She was in Seattle. And I linked up with Julie and she was like, “Listen. We’ll all talk. I can link you up with so and so.” and I went back to my senior producer at the time and I said, “OK. So I just [inaudible].” And they’re like, “See if you can find people in Salt Lake.” Got them. I’m on the phone with Jill for hours. I’m talking to Alison. I’m talking to Neca. I’m talking to Tammy maybe even. I’m talking to everyone. And I’m like, there is something here. Just listening to the passion in everyone’s voice and what they had been through. And I learned so much about the Mormon religion in these phone calls. And I just really knew that we had something. but it was kind of an uphill battle. And after talking to everyone, I put together a plan. And there was this event happening. And I was like, “Okay. We can circle it around this event. That’s visual.” I forgot it was Encircle or something, was the event. And they were like, “Okay. You’re right, you do have something. There’s something big here. We have to do it right. Let’s do it.” And I remember just praying to whomever’s listening, like, “Please let all these women be as transparent in real life as they were on the phone,” because it’s very vulnerable. And it's’ very hard stuff to talk about. And I purposefully our whole crew was LGBTQ. And I was like, ‘We have to show up in the ways that will make everyone comfortable.” Especially Alison and we were talking to Hunter, Jill’s son. And all that stuff. So I really want to make sure that we’re doing it right. And we went out and we met everyone and we shot a lot of stuff. And it was, when we came back, then it was the magic of how do we put all of this together. And it was interesting, Encircle, it was like an auction or something, that was supposed to be the main event that the whole piece was surrounded around. We didn’t show any of it. We only showed those beautiful video portraits of the women. Encircle became such a sidenote to the power of everyone we spoke to. And I even think Dawn and Debra, they let us film with all these kids. And were able to get these bites that started the piece off. And it was just really, things just really worked out in the field. And when we put it together, I remember telling my leadership at the time, “We have something here. We can’t just put this up tomorrow.” And they listened. And we held it, and we premiered it. And we went to film festivals together. And we did all the things together and we won stuff together. And it was just really cool to see the power of reporting stuff out and finding something and being open to build upon it in the field. And the fact that everyone was just so open, I mean, unreal access. We went to the grave with Alison and George. And we visited Stockton and that only transpired in the field. And everyone was just so generous and open with us. That’s what made the film become what it became. It changed my life. That fully changed the trajectory of my career but also changed my life, for sure.
JEN: We will include a link to the documentary in the show notes for anyone who hasn’t seen this. And so many of our listeners might not even recognize all of those names that you were saying. Those were the people that were super involved at the beginning of the organization. But the thing that was so interesting to me, I’m hoping if people go watch it, it was like this snapshot – it’s like this picture of exactly who we were then. And if you’re involved now, you’ll see that in only six years, the organization has changed so dramatically and the focus is so much on educating to empower mothers to go out into the world and advocate for their own kids no matter how old they are. Where, att the time, we were sort of focusing on helping each other survive. But I think you touched on part of what makes the organization amazing. And it is that vulnerability. That, when you’re inside the groups, or you go to a lunch, everybody’s there, heart wide open. I love that you captured that and that you saw it. Those are memories that I have that are awesome to me. I love that you saw that from the outside.
ASHER: Yeah. And I also think it was, we went to church with Jill and Lee one day. And that was also able to see what a service is. Just being able to go and see that was also very eye-opening. It was about survival. That’s a very good way of putting it because, I mean, everyone was getting attacked. And it’s really just love. But, what was also so interesting to me was that – Neca for instance who, she has this line that has stayed with me forever when she says like, “The scriptures are perfect. It’s the humans that aren’t perfect.” The book is perfect to her and it’s the people that interpret the book that are at fault here. And I thought that that was always such an interesting duality in how to navigate it. And I think any religion can agree or believe in that where they believe in the scripture, but they don’t believe in how it’s being played out in real life.
JEN: Yeah. Neca is so wise, anyway. So I went to your website and I watched several other short films. I was impressed with what I saw was a very human element that you bring into each project. It felt, to me, very much like you’re interested in sharing the human experience in spaces where people might not always see those experiences. If I’m in rural Idaho, then maybe I don’t know what it’s like to live in New York. But probably more likely people in New York aren’t going to know what it’s like to live in rural Idaho. So I was impressed with that. So talk to me about how you’re going to select your projects when you’re going to make a piece?
ASHER: So, when I was producing or when I green light pitches even now, I think humanizing headlines is always something that really interests me. when we think we might know a lot about a topic or a lot about a thing. But, really, we just know the top line. We don’t really know the nuances and the intricacies. People fascinate me. So, for me, when I was a producer when I was looking at pieces, our motto was, “Tell me this thing I never knew, and show me something I’ve never seen.” And that’s stuck with me. And also just, I love jumping into people's lives and just like what goes on. You know, like, what are you doing? And it’s always so fascinating and really just making the person at the forefront of the video, I think people resonate with people. People follow people. People don’t follow brands. People don’t follow ideas. They follow people. And I’m just so interested about a diversity of life. And I think, when I was a kid, I remember crying, like aggressively one day, when I figured out – I don’t know if people just always know this. But I’ll never forget sitting by my window crying about this stupid thing. But I realized, it was so weird to me, when I left my friends, why can’t I find out what they’re doing now. It was this moment where it was like, wait a second. People are off doing things and I have no idea. I have no way in. So, what is Pamela doing right now? I don’t know. and when I realized that I couldn’t just tap into what people were experiencing when I wasn’t there was like, I don’t know why it weirded me out. It’s weird to want to see what’s happening behind closed doors, more so than what is normal. But I just remember being like, “Wait a second. I don’t get to see other people’s lives.” And I’ve always been driven by knowing sort of what happens behind closed doors. Even if it’s just a funny piece or something like that. Just what’s happening here and how do you live? And I want to know everything.
JEN: So, now we have social media. Do you have some regrets that you can always tell what’s happening?
ASHER: Well, I’m still fascinated by just how people live and their stories. Because, behind every door there’s just – I live in Manhattan. There’s 100 apartments here. There's so many untapped stories that you will never know. And that’s just maddening.
JEN: And magical. So, talk about what you’re doing now? What is your job now? What is it that you do?
ASHER: So now, I work for Good Morning America Digital. It’s a morning show in America. And I run the digital video team arm of it. So I’m in charge of the producers and the editorial that goes into all of our videos. I approve every pitch. I approve every video. I work across ABC news and broadcast to make sure brand standards are met. So it’s a big position and I take my job really seriously. You know, I think our audience is very middle-American and middle of the road. And I think humanizing the headlines is really important because I think we’re in the lifestyle space. We’re not hard news. We can take the more nuanced approach to stories. We can find the personal stories to sort of dispel misinformation or whatever. So, it’s a really big job and I quite enjoy it.
JEN: That’s awesome. You consistently telling the truth in a balanced way, all of those categories. ABC is right up there in the top. So, I have a personal obsession with looking up sources all the time now and questioning sources. And you guys are consistently up there. So that’s a huge compliment from me.
ASHER: Oh, I’m glad to hear it. Our processes are very rigorous. I think that there is a lot of misinformation out there. And there’s a lot of biased reporting. And I think it’s important to be steadfast and tell people the facts. That’s it. Our job is to inform the public. And we have to do that in the most credible way possible, especially these days.
JEN: So, before I move out of your career. You’ve won an Emmy. That’s nothing small. And you won three daytime Emmys. So talk about this a little bit what, in your world, these sorts of accolades mean to your career. And I want to know what you won your Emmys for.
ASHER: OK. Yeah. So awards are important in media. They just are. Especially if you’ve been in the media as long as I have. The three daytime Emmys were because I worked, it was for ABC news and it was for Good Morning America [inaudible] and we were, I was in the promotions, I was in the marketing department. And I was in charge of these mashups. Which basically started on ESPN but we would mash up what the anchors said all morning and put it into a song. And, yeah, it’s crazy. But they did very well. And so when the show was nominated, we then got nominated. And that’s how I won those.
JEN: That’s awesome.
ASHER: Yeah. It is awesome. And then, the last one I won, which was a news doc I made, it was really close to my heart. So we did this series, a Great Big Story, where we highlighted people that were change makers in their community. And we did a suite of four within each season of the series. So I was in charge of the LGBTQ series where we highlighted change makers from a 13-year-old drag queen, to a gay man who was fleeing his country, and the head of an LGBTQ refugee shelter. That was this particular flight of them was nominated for an Emmy and we won. And so that one is the most important to me because it really focused on the stories I love to tell and also stories that make representation so much more important. And so that one is really, there was a lot of love and tears and sweat that went into those pieces. And I'm just really proud that that got nominated and won because it’s really a win for the people in them, moreso than me.
JEN: I’m really drawn to people who are living their full happy lives and experiencing joy in their queerness. And several things that you’ve said, both in your intro and also during our conversation today, really point to the idea that you celebrate being trans, that you’re happy that you’re trans. Talk to me about what sorts of things bring you queer joy and how you express that and experience it in the world?
ASHER: I think having queer joy for me, is really just about being a part of the community and a safe part of the community. Really being able to use all the privilege I’ve had as a trans person or just a person in the world to elevate people’s stories that maybe don’t have it so easy. But also, to be a good example. I sit at tables with really big leaders of the industry. You know, I'm able to say, “I’m trans. I come from this experience.” And really elevate the rest of the community in that way. and I find a lot of joy in that. I also find, while there’s a lot of awful things happening to the community right now, seeing the community band together like nothing I’ve ever seen. And we support each other and we care about each other. And I don’t see that in a lot of other places. Just the Mama Dragons in general, the fact that this was born. I remember asking what the Mama Dragons stood for, and they’re like, we breathe fire for our kids. And that really struck a chord with me. And just being able to live and be that example for people, for kids, for somebody at the office who maybe never thought that they would transition but saw that I did it when I was older. Or, when I first transitioned, I was at CNN and they linked me up with someone in the building who had gone through it. And it was a kind of a buddy. I can be that person. I am that person for people. I had someone I work with whose father asked to talk because their kid had come out and their kid’s very young. And they didn’t know what to do. And I can be that sounding board and I can help them. And I just think that trans is beautiful and I think, sometimes it’s easy to lose sight of that. But, being able to navigate the world having lived two different lives, essentially, is a beautiful thing and not one many people can navigate. And I’ll also say that you’re going to be a much better girlfriend or boyfriend or whatever – themfriend – because you understand. You get it. And so I hear that a lot. So I think for me, I just feel a great deal of pride and that I get to live in my skin. And that nobody likes having surgeries. Nobody likes having all these things. But, also, I was in a preop appointment just the other day and they said something about what are you going to do if something goes wrong or whatever. And I was like, “Listen, man. It’s better than it is now.” For me, I look at these sort of moments as they’re joyful because I’m feeling like, getting to be who I really am and all the things are going to match. And that, for me, is my experience. So I have a great deal of joy around all of it. and it can be annoying and it can be overwhelming. But I wouldn’t have it any other way. I don’t want to be a cis-white guy. I’m happy being who I am and I know I navigate the world that way. And I’m very lucky for it. But I also love pulling the card out, like, the ‘Gotcha’. That’s my twisted thing.
JEN: You’ve got a special super power.
ASHER: Yeah. Yeah.
JEN: You touched on this, the idea of living two separate lives. And I mentioned to you that I was going to ask you about this. But, one of my favorite conversations to have with trans people because I learn so much every time particularly trans people who transitioned as adults. It doesn’t really work the same if they transition when they’re three. But, simply the idea that society has gender roles. And society behaves differently toward people who are different genders. Most of us move through all of our entire life as one gender. And so we’re kind of guessing, this is my experience, but I don’t know. Where trans people have this, I don’t want to call it a gift, but that’s what I’m calling it, a gift. You went through a couple decades being perceived as a woman. And in a highly competitive career as a woman. And now you’re perceived by society as a man. And I’m super interested in hearing you compare and contrast both, not just how people treated you. For sure that in business and in the world. But also how you move through the world differently knowing how society perceives you. Enlighten us on all things gender. No pressure.
ASHER: Yeah. good question. It’s a good question and it’s nuanced. I think the world, it doesn’t come as any surprise, the world respects men more than they respect women. So, as of late in my life, I have seen such drastic differences in treatment when I was female presenting, I think that people sort of discount you or “Are you filming this yourself?” Those kinds of comments. “You know how to use that camera?” kind of thing. And there’s a lack of respect or there’s this coddling that goes on in business. Or there’s this, I never negotiated my salaries when I got a job when I was presenting as female. I just got what I got and I was happy to be there and called it a day. Now, “What are you nuts?” I negotiate everything. You’re asking me for $10 for a drink, I’m like, we should do $5. But I think that the world treats men and women very differently, obviously. And I think it’s been so interesting to see just how blatant it is and how – especially if you’re dealing with somebody who has no idea who you are. Like my new thing is, I moved, and everyone around this neighborhood calls me boss. And I’ve never. I’m like 5’8 on a good day. I’m not a boss. It’s just such a funny moniker. I’ve never had that before. And I love it. It gives me this real boost in the day. But no one gives you a nickname like that. They’ll call you sweetie or honey or whatever or nothing at all or just hold the door open for you and you’d be on your way. So it’s just a different level of seeing somebody. I think people really see me now. And maybe it’s on me too because I was so, even though I was an extrovert and did all the things, I was very hidden and I very, I just want to navigate and I don’t want any big to-dos about myself. But now, I’m more commanding and I also think it’s probably feeling more comfortable with myself that I’m able to sort of stick up for myself and know my value a lot more than I did pretransition. But, yes. It’s wild. Also, like, the things that men say to other men are very different than the things they say to women. And it’s interesting. I sort of get a complex sometimes because most of my friends are girls and gay men.
JEN: I liked how you said it’s obvious that society treats men and women differently because what I’ve kind of discovered is that cisgender men, it is not obvious to them, largely.
ASHER: No.
JEN: And so the most fascinating demographic to meet are trans women who start to transition and moved through life as cis men and didn’t notice. And then, they’re like, “Oh. This is what you guys were talking about.” I think all gender studies should be led by trans people because you guys do have this insight that the rest of us are just never going to have.
ASHER: So, when I first started telling my friends, I remember someone very well- meaning said to me, “I’ll teach you what you need to know to be a man.”
JEN: Oh, ouch!
ASHER: Yeah. I was like, and at the time, I was like, “Thank you. What do I do?” I was eating it, you know. And he was like, “Okay. You only order whiskey neat and you only do this and you only do that.” And he, very well-meaning, but I was really in that mode where I will wear pink. I’m not going to do this. I want to be just like vanilla guy. And then, eventually, I’ll switch jobs and no one will know I’m trans. That was really my thought process. I’ll get to a place where I pass and I’ll never talk about it again. And the more I went in my transition, the more I realized I was nuts. But to each their own. Some people, for safety reasons, do do that. Or for other reasons and that's totally fine. But, for me, that wasn’t ever my worry. But I remember thinking I’m going to be the most alpha male in the world. But, guess what, I love the Real Housewives. I love Taylor Swift. And I think that is just as manly as watching football. So I think that was a real moment for me when I was, “But I don’t want to be any of those. What you cis men do, like, is of no interest to me. What is of interest to me is what makes me happy and what I like to do. And that is just as manly, it’s just like as gendered male as any of your footballs or whatever the hell’s going on. So, guess what, I’m going to keep awkwardly loving Taylor Swift and I’m going to keep outwardly watching the Real Housewives and Bravo. And that’s a man too.” And I think it was a lot of relearning and recalibrating what does make a man a man. And what makes a man a man is just you saying so. and just being who you are. And so that was, I think, that’s still sometimes a hang up of mine. Oh, do I not like enough masculine stuff? But does it really matter?
JEN: I love that your most vulnerable part there, like, let us teach you the most toxic version. And help you become the most toxic version we possibly can. That is how we want to help you.
ASHER: Yeah. Should I also cut women off? What else should I be doing? Should I just be such an awful – but I think a lot of trans people go to the extreme. They really want. And I’ve always just wanted, as long as I can remember, I just wanted to be normal. I just want to be a normal boy. A normal boy. A normal boy. But what is normal? This is normal. And it looks different for everybody. And for me, like medically and all that, was the most important thing. But I’m not going to start golfing, no thank you.
JEN: I like that that’s your version of masculinity, golf.
ASHER: I mean, everyone’s talking about golf. Do golf, do you do this? No!
JEN: That’s awesome. So, half a decade ago, you took a deep dive into the Mama Dragon organization. If you could deliver a message, a parting message to the members of our group now, especially to those with trans or gender expansive kids, what sort of advice or message do you have for our listeners?
ASHER: I would first say thank you for listening and being open and joining Mama Dragons or dipping your toes into Mama Dragons because that’s just the first step to realizing that maybe you don’t have all the answers or that what you’ve been taught is not maybe the most accurate. Advice I would give is to just let your kid lead. And to just have their back no matter what. I remember when I transitioned, some family members said things about – I think the thing about trans is different than if your kid comes out as gay or lesbian or bi or pan or whatever, the parent and the family and friends have to come out too. If your kid is not the gender they were assigned at birth, you then need to tell people that. When they say, “How’s your daughter?” You’re like, “Well, actually, it’s my son.” So I think that that’s such a bigger barrier because most people don’t ever have to come out in their lives. And then to take that on is hard. It’s hard work. It’s hard to shoulder. It’s hard to have those conversations with people. It’s hard to have those conversations at work or with your family. And so I would say to give yourself grace. I know that most of it is on your child or whomever, but really you should give yourself love too because you’re going to have to really shoulder a lot of the coming out, especially to colleagues or friends. You can’t keep it, maybe you can, but it’s hard to keep it a secret. And you’re going to experience, probably, some push back. And just walking a little bit in your kid’s shoes and I think that can be a sobering experience for a lot of people. But I just say, it’s amazing that you’re in this group and that you’re trying to help yourself, help your kid, and help your community. And everything's going to be alright so long as, like, your kid feels supported and the shame of society goes away, your kid’s going to be okay. I’m a testament to it. I see very successful trans people every day of my life. I do a lot of work with other outlets that are more LGBTQ focused. And they are literally run by LGBTQ people. And everything’s going to be alright.
JEN: Thank you so much, Asher, for coming to chat with us today and providing us a little bit more insight into the lived experience of a very successful filmmaker who also happens to be transgender. I appreciate it greatly. Thank you.
ASHER: Thanks for having me.
JEN: Thanks so much for joining us here in the den. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with your friends. We’d also love it if you could take a minute to leave us a positive rating and review on whatever platform you’re listening to us on. Good reviews make us more visible and help us reach more folks who could benefit from listening. But, review or not, we’re glad you’re here. For more information on Mama Dragons and the podcast, you can visit our website at mamdragons.org or follow us on Instagram or Facebook. And if you’d like to help Mama Dragons in our mission to support, educate, and empower the parents of LGBTQ children, donate at mamadragons.org or click the donate link in the show notes.