This week In the Den, Jen talks with seven moms of queer children about their honest feelings around parenting queer children. Our guests share how they felt when their child came out and how they feel now about having an LGBTQ child.
Special Guest: Rhonda Hill
Rhonda is a mother of four from Utah who loves to cook, craft, and play the piano.
Special Guest: Lisa Glad
Lisa is a Mormon mama of three (two Queerdos!) and a proud Mama Dragon!
Special Guest: Erin Lee
Erin is a Canadian mom of two boys, working in education.
Special Guest: Brandi Higgins
Brandi is a wife, mom and fierce advocate in Kansas City, MO.
Special Guest: Pamela Theron
Pam is a single nomad mom of queer kids living to spread love and peace.
Special Guest: Elizabeth Kingsley
Elizabeth is a life coach getting her masters in management. She’s the mother of four queer kids, with three still at home.
Special Guest: Marcie Schear
Marcie is a spicy disaster who loves to love.
Links from the Show:
In the Den is made possible by generous donors like you.
Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today at www.mamadragons.org.
Connect with Mama Dragons:
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Facebook
Donate to this podcast
This week In the Den, Jen talks with seven moms of queer children about their honest feelings around parenting queer children. Our guests share how they felt when their child came out and how they feel now about having an LGBTQ child.
Special Guest: Rhonda Hill
Rhonda is a mother of four from Utah who loves to cook, craft, and play the piano.
Special Guest: Lisa Glad
Lisa is a Mormon mama of three (two Queerdos!) and a proud Mama Dragon!
Special Guest: Erin Lee
Erin is a Canadian mom of two boys, working in education.
Special Guest: Brandi Higgins
Brandi is a wife, mom and fierce advocate in Kansas City, MO.
Special Guest: Pamela Theron
Pam is a single nomad mom of queer kids living to spread love and peace.
Special Guest: Elizabeth Kingsley
Elizabeth is a life coach getting her masters in management. She’s the mother of four queer kids, with three still at home.
Special Guest: Marcie Schear
Marcie is a spicy disaster who loves to love.
Links from the Show:
In the Den is made possible by generous donors like you.
Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today at www.mamadragons.org.
Connect with Mama Dragons:
Website
Instagram
Facebook
Donate to this podcast
JEN: Hello and welcome to In The Den with Mama Dragons. I’m your host, Jen. This podcast was created to walk and talk with you through the journey of raising happy, healthy, and productive humans. Thanks for listening. We’re glad you’re here.
When people started to learn that my oldest had come out, I got a lot of warm hugs and people would say “I am so sorry. Is there anything that we can do for you?” And they meant it with heartfelt empathy and love. But we had already been at this for a year. And they were just wrong. There was nothing for them to be sorry about. By this point, I was absolutely thrilled about it all. And I wanted to tell the world how I really felt about having this amazing gay son. But nobody was asking about how I really felt. And we know that some of our kids probably want to know how we REALLY feel about it, too.
So, we thought we would gather together a group of some of our members and offer a chance to talk about how they genuinely felt at the time and how they feel now and that journey of having a queer child. We want to know how their lives have been impacted for adults when they have a kid who comes out. So, we’re all here together, welcome collection of moms.
LISA: Thank you.
ELIZABETH: Thank you so much.
MARCIE: Hello.
RHONDA: Hello.
PAM: Hello.
JEN: Thank you so much for being here. And instead of introducing everybody at the start, I’m just going to do it one at a time as we go so you’ll get to meet everybody as we go.
We’re going to start off with Rhonda Hill. Rhonda is a mother of four from Utah who loves to cook, craft, and play the piano. Rhonda, tell me how you feel about having multiple queer children?
RHONDA: The best part of having queer children is all the color. And I’m not just talking about the pride flag in our front yard. Every two weeks or so someone has a different color of hair. The clothes that the kids wear has drastically changed as everyone has tried to really express themselves instead of fit in with the crowd. My nonbinary kiddo is really into drag makeup so I never know what kind of face will come up the stairs in the morning. It’s a surprise every morning that I look forward to! But to get serious, having queer children has been a great blessing for me and my family.
I am a mother of four kids and I’m prone to anxiety and perfectionism. I grew up in, and started raising my children in a high demand religion. And the appeal of that was a nice little checklist of things to accomplish in order for our family to live happily ever after. I had a clear list of expectations for my future and for the future of my kids and that was comforting to me. When one of our children came to us and came out, I felt like someone had taken that neat little checklist and lit it on fire. So my anxiety was through the roof as I worried about the hard future ahead for this child. I didn’t know how to protect them from heartache, hurt, bullying, and pain anymore.
With my imaginary safety net gone, I dove into studying. I read every book and listened to every podcast I could find about the LGBTQ community. I took the Parachute course offered by Mama Dragons. I asked my kiddo way too many questions just trying to wrap my brain around our new normal. Thank goodness they were very patient with me. Slowly, over the course of a year, courage started emerging like a butterfly from a cocoon. I started to see the beauty that comes when you have a child that’s free to express themselves. I realized that I was trying to manage and maintain an unrealistic set of expectations for myself and my children.
Letting that checklist burn was frightening but it opened our family up to a whole new world of, what seems like, endless opportunity. Instead of worrying about a list of rules to follow, I can enjoy my children in every moment. Instead of obsessing about their future, I can help them work through the challenges they’re going through in the moment. So, now three of my four kids have come out to us and they have brought me four very important gifts in the process.
The first gift is the ability to live authentically. Watching my children live authentically has slowly given me permission to do the same thing. I’ve changed habits that aren’t working for me anymore and adopted new ones. Being able to let my true colors show has also helped me manage my anxiety and avoid perfectionism. So this is a huge gift.
Another gift is improving communication skills and relationships. The simple realization that my reality isn’t everyone’s reality was a huge step forward for me. I couldn’t imagine that the experience my children were having at church was different than mine. But really listening and trying to empathize with the kid’s reality, has opened my mind to more empathy for everyone around me. This has also encouraged me to improve my communication skills with everybody, especially listening to their stories and believing what they’re telling me. We have a much stronger relationship as a family now and I know it’s because we are all trying to listen to each other and support each other without judgment or control.
My third gift of having queer children is an invitation to a community that is all inclusive with no expectations, where everyone belongs no matter what. Attending pride events and working with people in this community has taught me more about love than even I knew was possible. Every experience I’ve had with the queer community has been uplifting, inclusive, and SO fun! We’re happy to be included in this space.
And the best gift is a sense of adventure for the future: Since we no longer have a safety net to ensure our happily ever after, we have really worked as a family to overcome challenges, solve problems, and move forward. Now, I have a sense of adventure for the unknown. I’ve been able to let go of my fears and look forward to whatever the future will bring our family because I know we have the capacity, skills, and relationships to handle it together. I couldn’t have predicted our family would look this way even three years ago. My queer kids have brought so much joy and color to our family and I wouldn’t change any of it.
JEN: Thank you so much, Rhonda. I just figured out why I like you so much. I think we’re twins. I didn’t even know we have the same origin story. That must be why every time we talk I think, “I really feel her. I really get that.” That was beautiful. Thank you so much.
We are now going to turn to Lisa Glad. Lisa is a Mormon Mama of 3, 2 of whom are Queerdos, and Proud Mama Dragon! Lisa, talk to us about how you feel about having an adult lesbian daughter, Patti, and a non-binary adult kiddo, Kris?
LISA: Well, I tell you, it was hard at first. When Patti first came out it was just before Christmas, just before she turned 21 and just said, “Mom, this thing I’m going on is a date. I’m a lesbian.” And what she remembers me saying, luckily, is “I love you and I don’t want to lose you.” But I was just devastated. It was not a surprise. We had watched her Facebook posts and stuff and thought “She’s just supporting her gay friends, right?” I didn’t want to hear it. I really didn’t because, same with Rhonda, you’ve got that checklist of the Mormon church that’s very conservative. We’re going to do all these things and that will guarantee that our forever is all going to line up. And suddenly, my Patti wasn’t on that pathway.
And it put me in a really, really dark place for a few weeks. I hid. I got the flu, luckily I could hide in my little blanket fort and I didn't have to talk to anybody. But then the flu went away and I had to come back to life. I had to go back to work and my husband’s like, “What do we do? I don’t know what to do to help you.” and I decided to visit – our family physician also happened to be my parents' religious leader. And we’d gotten to be friends because he’d supported us through a lot of challenges with my parents. And I went in and just fell apart. And he said, “Lisa, I’m going give you an antidepressant and sleeping pill to get you through this. I don’t think you’ll need them very long. But God sent this daughter to you for a reason. Your job is to love her and keep her close to you and that is what you need to do.” And I was like, okay. I can do this. And it was before Mama Dragons. I found PFLAG, met some actual gay people,
JEN: I like that they’re mythological. Some actual gay people. I like it.
LISA: These were happy people who had successful lives. And they were there at PFLAG to support parents coming into this. And I thought, OK, I can do this. So I wrapped my head around it. I thought okay, I can add Lesbian and Gay to my “Acceptable Humanity” boxes because we all have boxes that we want to fit people into.
And then, my Kris came to me a couple years later and I thought Kris was just struggling with church and things because of trying to support their gay sister. And then Kris came to me and said – and Kris remembers coming out to me on a drive. That’s when Kris wanted to talk was when we were in the car. And I had pushed that down. I didn’t remember that Kris had come out to me the fall of their senior year. I remember right after graduation Kris sat me down and said, “Mom, you need to know I am nonbinary, asexual, and, oh, by the way, agnostic.” And I kind of went [confused noise]. I didn’t even know what two of those were. I’d heard of agnostic.
And so Kris has become my educator and filling me in, this is what all these things mean. And Kris now has a degree in gender studies and has continued to be my educator. So I can go to them with questions. They/them are their pronouns and that’s been a big adjustment. And we still joke about this, that Kris came along and smashed all my boxes. Kris didn’t fit in boxes and I’ve realized that most of humanity doesn’t – some of us fit our boxes perfectly well, but so many people don’t fit in those little boxes.
And it’s opened my heart to so much. And my relationship with my kids is some of my greatest blessings. I really do, I rejoice in having these queer kids. It’s opened my heart to, like Rhonda said, so many other phases of humanity, so many different things, so much in religion, so many things just in the world. And I wouldn’t trade. I’ve met so many wonderful people, both in the LGBTQ community and in the support of. I have made forever friends here in Mama Dragons and some of the other groups that I’m part of that I wouldn’t trade. This has opened my heart to so much.
We still have some progress to come along with other family members, but I wouldn’t trade what we’ve learned and how my heart has grown. I was talking to somebody at Lagoon. We were two grandmas waiting for grandkids. And people ask about kids and I just – my kids are my kids. None of my kids follow the “script” that I wrote as a teenager. “How do you want your life to go, this is what you’re going to do and this is what your kids are going to do.” My oldest is divorced with three kids and still very much in the church. Patti and Kris want nothing to do with church. My little scripts are just stomped all to heck and that’s okay. Life goes on and we’re good – But this other grandma and I were talking and she was like, “That must be really, really hard to have two kids that are queer.” She couldn’t hardly even say queer. And I was like, “Nuh-uh, this has been one of the greatest blessings of my life. It has changed who I am.” I will talk to anybody about this and I still go to church.
People know that they can come to me and come and talk to me because I’m open about my kids. And I’ve also listened to all the church lessons differently. They’re tough to listen to. There’s no place in the church for my kids. So I’m not worried about that. Deity will keep their arm around all of us and it will be great. I just go on happily. We love it. I’m more colorful than my kids, though. My kids don’t dress up in rainbows and stuff other than hair. They’re like, ‘Yeah, Mom. You’re more gay than we are.”
JEN: You do have a giant heart. So I’m thrilled that it grew to be exactly what it is. Thank you, Lisa, for that.
LISA: You’re one of the highlights of people that I’ve met and love, Jen.
JEN: Oh, that’s so sweet. Thank you, friend.
I’m going to turn next to Erin. Erin Lee is a Canadian, representing Canada here for us today. A Canadian who works in education, a mom of 2 boys. Erin, talk to us about your feelings on this topic.
ERIN: Yes. So my 19 year old son is trans. And he’s in college now, but back around grade six, when he was still identifying as female, came to me and said, “Mom, what if I was bi?” And I said, “What if you were?” And I’ll use he/him for pronouns as to not to confuse. He said, “Would you be okay with that?” And I said, “I would absolutely be okay with that.” And he nodded and it seemed like that was just okay, check mark beside that box.
And then a little while later, he came back to me – and this was maybe six months down the road – and said, “Mom, what if I were gay?” And I said, “What if you were?” Of course, what they’re looking for is “Will you still love me? Will you still accept me as your child? Will we have that same relationship that we always have?” And I was determined to get that message through loud and clear. And I said, “Well, if you were gay, then I would love you just the same.” And he said, “What if I married someone of the same sex?” And I said, “Then I’ll still be that embarrassing mother in the front row of the wedding, crying my eyes out, as mothers do, and embarrass you, just like any mother would.”
And then, about a year after that, he came out as trans. And we had that same conversation. But the beauty is, I never looked at my son as boy first or girl first and person second. He’s always been such a unique personality. I mean, not to belabor an often used term. But he’s always been such a unicorn that I’ve almost not even regarded gender as being close to the most important thing about him. He has been my teacher through this time.
We were very fortunate in that our family, when James came out to them, the family responded with love and respect and even some of the grandmas who were originally saying, “Well, I don’t know if I can get these pronouns down.” They all did. It just became something they did. The name change was not a problem whatsoever. And so we’ve been very fortunate.
And on the subject of being fortunate, I just want to say as representing Canada here, I read so many stories of so many Mama Dragons in the States who, for various reasons whether it be certain communities or geographic locations, have so many more challenges then we have here. I’m not sure how much listeners will know about healthcare in Canada. But gender affirming care is health care in Canada. Going to your doctor about gender affirming care is not something to worry about. If you have a family doctor, then you can receive care. It’s not a problem whatsoever.
When we started hormone therapy, we actually went to a pediatrician that we had been with from the time my son was younger who just started a general conversation with my son and then after whatever the law’s requirement on timing, we went straight into HRT which was expected and part of the process. So, honestly, I feel very fortunate that my son has been able to, fairly seamlessly, really become who he is.
And I see him now with a partner, going to school, excelling, and I honestly think that becoming who he is, truly is, was one of the greatest gifts our family could receive. He’s happy. He’s thriving. He’s living his best life, as they say. And I couldn’t be prouder of him. He’s a very special individual. And I think that, honestly, when it comes to having kids in this beautiful LGBTQ rainbow, it’s about nurturing that relationship. And that’s my only concern throughout this was nurturing that relationship and making sure that he always knew that I will always love him, and not in spite of, but because of who he is.
JEN: I love that you were so open from the start and patiently walked with him as he baby stepped you.
ERIN: He did baby step a little bit but that’s a process.
JEN: Yeah. I love that for him, and you.
Next up we have Brandi Higgins. Brandi is a wife, a mom, and fierce advocate living in Kansas City, MO. Brandi, how has it been for you to have a 19 year old trans son?
BRANDI: I love it now. We’re about five years into this journey. And now, things are wonderful and I wouldn’t change it for anything. But when Daniel first came out to me, I think you said it, I was terrified. And my fears came from realizing how little I knew about the trans community. I had always considered myself an ally. And just the way that I raised Daniel, the questions he had for me growing up, I kind of knew he would be coming out in some fashion. I always expected bi or gay. And then he threw transgender out there and it just hadn’t been on my radar. I didn’t know any transgender people at the time. It wasn’t talked about a lot. So I just said, “Thank you. Thank you for sharing that with me.”
And then kind of went into this head spin of now what do I do? Where do I go from here? I have to support my child. I just have to. But how? And so I did this deep dive into the internet which can be a dangerous place. But with the help of his therapist who he had already been seeing, I found some great sites with educational material. And I spent days and weeks just consuming all this material until the point that I was overwhelmed and I still didn’t know what to do.
And so the first basic questions to my son were, “What do you need from me? How do I help you?” And they were really simple at first. He was 15 at the time. So what he needed from me was just mom to be there. And then to start using his new name and pronouns which was an immediate switch, some slip ups here or there. But it was not a problem for us to switch to his preferred name and his pronouns. And then that was kind of it in the beginning. That’s all we needed to do to make him feel safe and accepted at home.
And then I started thinking, “Well, what do I need because I’m scared. I’m scared of how the world is going to treat him, how our own family, our friends are going to react to this information. I’m scared of how I’m going to be seen as a mother.” And then, eventually, I just started thinking, those are my fears. Those are not my son’s fears. He’s suddenly just become this more open and honest and vibrant person living his truth. And I’m here sitting scared behind him.
So I couldn't handle that for myself. So I searched. I said there has to be other people who feel this way. There has to be parents going through this knowing that our kids are going to be okay, but I’m not okay right now. And so I found Mama Dragons and I read for a long time. I was a quiet participant for a long time just reading all the stories. And I thought, here we are, this huge community of moms who are just here to lift up our dragons. And just all the pieces started falling into place for me.
And I thought I was an ally before. And now I really understand what it means to be an ally. The way I started advocating for my son, getting him the things he needed, going to school with him to get his classrooms and teachers and everyone on board, seeking out medical professionals for him. I have long been an introvert, and just having to be there for him and speak up for him in all those situations has just brought me out completely of my shell. It’s changed me as a person, I think, for the better. I’m a much better mom. I’m a better friend. I’m a better person in general.
Not only am I just here for my son anymore. I feel like I take a role in advocating more for the whole LGBTQ+ community at home and I do this at work too. One of my big projects at work is helping other parents who have kids in the LGBTQ+ community. So doing that both with Mama Dragons and at work, it’s like my whole life has come full circle. Everything is interconnected now. And now I understand that that allyship is the action that I’m taking.
JEN: I love that you were pushed out of the introvert world and now you’re fighting for everyone, not just your own kid. That’s really beautiful.
We are going to turn now to Pam. Pam is a single nomad of queer children living to spread love and peace. Pam, talk to me about how you feel, your experience having queer kids.
PAM: So, I’m going to be honest. I had a neighbor who approached me and knew that my son was gay. And she said, “Oh, I wish I had a gay son.” And my honest response inside my head was, “You have no fucking clue. And why would you even wish that?” And my son had come to me in 2004. So it was a little bit different time. When family members found out, there was confusion, there was fear, he was ostracized. We saw bullying in schools. It just wasn’t affirmed. And we kept it quiet. He requested to keep it quiet. And there were times he would even try to live outside the country, I think, just to find acceptance in who he was.
During that time, I felt like many of you have said, scared, confused, and trying to do research. And researching within my community trying to find answers feeling like, “Well of course they would have the answers of what I should do.” Non-affirming, which added more confusion. I thought that I was an ally. I thought that by telling my child, my son that I loved him and that we would find a way and we would work it out was being this ally. But the messaging that he was getting was still that he was not enough, that he was still less-than, that he would have to wait until God changed him or that God made things right.
Well, let me say this, I know that as moms, we want our children to be happy and healthy. That would be probably our number one wish, right? We just want our children to be happy and healthy. I have three biological children. I have one cis female, my gay son, and I also have an enby child, my youngest. And I have four step children. And I want all of them to be happy and healthy.
Years later, my gay son – this is 20 years later now – Christmas Eve dinner, I’m able to sit around his table, fifteen of his guests and I’m one of them. And I was the only female, white, cis, person at the table. And how beautiful it was to hear their stories and hear about their lives and their backgrounds and where they came from.
How cool it would’ve been to have Mama Dragons back in 2004. But I’ll tell you, years later, I got involved in Mama Dragons, maybe wanting to give back, maybe not wanting another mother to have to go through what I had gone through. But, to have that platform of support and knowledge. And 2022, I didn’t know it. My youngest came to a pride event that I was at, at a Mama Dragons booth. And they were wearing a skirt. And I was able to embrace them and just fully celebrate, just celebrate who they were. Not just tolerate it, not just wish something would change or wishing for another time. I got to see them in their full joy of accepting who they are and wanting to live their full authentic life.
Our children are more than just their sexuality. They’re more than the clothes that they wear. And I feel like society, when they see these labels that are on these children, they don’t see the fullness of really who they are. And we as moms, we see that. We see that it doesn’t really change. We see that they're still that wonderful, compassionate, creative, beautiful person. But, even more so, they're so brave.
How I feel about having queer kids, I feel like they saved me. I let go of expectations for myself that others had put on me. I was able to let go of expectations for them and their lives. I’m a better person. I’ve been able to follow their brave example. I’ve been able to start living my best, authentic life. It’s truly just been, like we can all agree there’s challenges of being a parent whether you have a queer kid or not. But how magical it is to be a part of Mama Dragons, to be a part of the LGBTQ community, to be able to see beyond what people are seeing in these people. We see our children. We’ve seen them when they were younger. We’ve seen them go through these struggles.
I’ll share with you, my enby child, he’s always been my gym buddy. We’ve done some competitive powerlifting together. So, you know, very manly type thing, flexing your muscles. So here I see my gym buddy who just recently got married. And seeing them come out in this amazingly beautiful, beyond fluffy, tulle dress with a long train, and the hair and the makeup and the beautiful jewelry and to look inside to see their eyes and to see them glowing and to know that you’ve seen them before. And that light was so dim. But to see the light in their eyes now, to see the bravery in discovering who they are and choosing to live their authentic self, I smile. My heart smiles. I can feel the happiness for them. And that’s what we want for your children, right, to be their happiest, healthiest self. And how awesome it is that they’re able to live authentically them and find that happiness.
JEN: That was beautiful. We all got to meet your Zane in Episode 25. And I will double what you said. They actually are really amazing. A really great, adult, kid.
All right, next up we get to hear from Elizabeth Kingsley. Elizabeth is a life coach currently getting her masters in management. Mother of 4 queer kids, with 3 still at home. So, Elizabeth, talk to us about having multiple queer children?
ELIZABETH: So my story starts when my second oldest – I don’t know, they were probably 14, now they’re 18 – but they had said to me in the car driving home one time from the movies, “Hey, mom. I like girls.” And I was like, “Okay.” It wasn’t a big deal to me. And they actually don’t remember that being a supportive conversation. so I just want to say that for the moms who don’t have kids that remember being told I love you no matter what, you’re not alone. And I thought that’s what I was saying, but whatever. So we don’t always get to choose our kids' experiences of us.
Anyways, I thought that was not a big deal and even though I had raised all of my kids in a very strict and conservative religious family with all the checkboxes. I can so relate to the perfectionism checklist. Anyways, and so I didn’t really think a lot of it. This child had always had mental health struggles since they were like 12.
But then everything changed for me when they made an attempt at suicide. And in the emergency room, after the fact, they were okay physically and they came out as trans. And for me that wasn’t a big deal. For me, what was devastating was that my entire life had been – my highest priority was always to have my kids feel safe – and the idea that this child would rather prefer the idea of escaping this life than just telling me who they felt they were, completely destroyed my identity as a good mom which was the biggest part of my identity was that. And so, for me, I was massively devastated.
I lost my beliefs. I lost my values. I couldn’t figure out what was up or down for a long time. My child recovered in like a month or two and they had a supportive parent now, so they were doing great. Everyone was like, “How’s your child?” and I’m like, “They’re fine. I’m the one that I’m worried about.” But it was over a year. So I started meeting other parents. I started reading because I was like, “What the Hell.” Meaning I have now found out that my parenting has damaged my child this whole time. I was sacrificing myself to help them and it actually wasn’t. It was harming them.
So I felt like I was starting from square one, which was good. In other words, for me to be a healthy parent, I had to give up all of the old ways of thinking. I hear in a lot of your speaking that is not the case, which makes me really happy. But for me it was. So, anyways, I started meeting other parents. I met transgender people. I got what education I could. But it took a whole year before I felt really comfortable in my role as a mother not worrying about hurting my child further. So shortly after they came out, my kid is like, “Can I cut all my hair off?” and before that, I was like, “We keep our hair the colors that are natural that people can be born with. And after that. I was like, I don’t give a hill. I don’t care if you have hair. I don’t care if you cut your hair off. I just want you to stay alive. Can we just agree on that?”
JEN: It really shows us what’s important, doesn’t it.
ELIZABETH: Oh, my God, yes. That’s the thing. That was the only thing left that I was, well for sure I know it’s important that my kid stay alive. Everything else, it took me a while to sort out. Whoa, that was a hard time. So they got all their hair cut off. But I’m like, “if you’re doing it, I’m doing it.” because where I live, culturally, it is very unacceptable to be trans, completely unacceptable. As far as being gay, that’s just dirty.
So I grew up in southern Alabama. And we literally, culturally, would use the word, “Abomination”. So I didn’t understand sex because I was raised by very conservative parents. All I knew was that was unspeakable. We do not talk about anything gay. Homosexual people were literally lynched in the area for that. And all I knew was, that was sad, but that was bad.
So now I’m an adult trying to figure this out, not living in Alabama, thank God. But where I do live is very conservative. So when they cut their hair, I cut my hair. And now my kids are like, “All my friends think you’re a lesbian.” And I’m like, “What’s the problem? What’s the problem?” Good because if somebody’s going to get flack for it, I want it to be me, too, at least, but preferably me first and not my kids.
So, as I became more comfortable, later in the journey, like after maybe two years, I found Mama Dragons. And I was so excited because I naturally turned into this very fierce advocate. And by fierce, I mean, like, scary fierce. Like, in your face, you will do what I need or I will make it happen through your boss. This is going to happen. And so it was so fun and validating to hear the term Mama Dragons. I’m like, “Oh my God, other moms go through this too.” We turn into these dragons like, I don’t mind eating you for breakfast and whatever your remains are. That’s not going to bother me, so let’s just deal with this, you know.
Anyway, so that’s been wonderful just to have the resource of there’s so many of us and that all of our journeys are unique, but the critical heart-rending elements are so common among us. And we get it. And we can love each other even when the other person is still at the rocky beginning and knowing it’s okay to suffer, it’s okay to heartbreak. It’s okay. And I just want to say, since that child came out, I’ve had three other kids come out all across the rainbow. And my parenting which used to be completely focused on controlling and conforming, is now all about curiosity. Finding out, “Well, who are you today?” I mean, “Who do we identify as this week, because that’s fine?” None of that matters as much as each other.
And I just want to say this for moms who might be regretting maybe some of their earlier parenting or feeling like guilt or shame that now, my oldest two – not the one that I’ve been talking about, but has also come out and is now identifies as nonbinary – all of her adult friends come to my house and she’s like, “You’re everyone’s favorite mom in the group.” And that’s another child that was harmed for so many years from my parenting. So I just want to say that, like on the other side, yes, my life is beautiful and my parenting is so much more natural and love-based. But my kids have also been able to resolve a lot of the trauma that I caused which is just such a relief.
LISA: I love that, that no matter what happens, I’ve got this dragon phalanx of wonderful people behind me that, whether they’re physically here or not, they’re here emotionally and spiritually and everything. They are right here with me.
ELISABETH: Fact.
LISA: And we’re going to burn whatever it is down.
JEN: I love the ferocity that I can recognize. The shared ferocity that we have to protect our babies. Thank you for that. When you’re fighting for yours, you’re fighting for mine also.
All right, last but absolutely not least, we have Marcie Schear who is a self-described spicy disaster who loves to love. Talk to us, Marcie, about your journey having a non-binary, gay child.
MARCIE: So having my Kris is such a blessing. And the best way I describe it is we – my husband and I were raised in a very conservative, very tiny little box with the walls and, like others have expressed, there’s this checklist. This is what you do, this is how you are, at this age you do this, and then at this age you do this, and then this is just the way life is and this the path you take, and then by this time you go here and it’s just how it is. And when our kid came out it rocked our world. And it took me a while to see how things were.
But after, the best way to describe it is, we were living in this little box in a sepia kind of color world. I like to describe it as the Wizard of Oz in the beginning where it’s like black and white or sepia colored. And, you know, we’re in Kansas and it’s kind of boring and plain. And then, Oh, my Goodness, it’s the cyclone and our world was flipped upside down, inside out, and there were cows, and the witch was going around, and life was insane and up was down and in was out and what am I going to do?
And I remember sobbing and crying in the congregation and saying, “I can’t do this, God. I can’t Mormon and Mom. I can’t do both. How am I supposed to Mormon and how am I supposed to Mom?” Because they were like competing magnets. They clashed. They repelled each other. And my answer was,”All you have to do is love that boy because I love him so much.” And I was like, “I can do that. I know how to do that. I was born to love this kid.” And it's the easiest commandment I’d ever been given. And then that’s what I did. And I didn’t have to worry about anything else. I’m just going to love this kid.
And I quit worrying about what the church was saying and what I was supposed to do because all I had to do is love like Jesus. And that’s so easy. And I don’t worry about anything else.
And then our cyclone stopped, and we rested. And then we opened the door and we’re in Oz and that is exactly what having this amazing, talented, and hilarious and – they are so snarky. It’s my fault. They got it from their father though, that’s not me, yeah right – sassy adult that is in our lives now. And we have so much color and there’s like the lollipop guild and there’s the horse of many colors. And there’s all these brilliant, vibrant souls in our lives.
And the first person that I talked to when Kris first came out as gay, she said, “You need to find the Mama Dragons.” And this was maybe three, four days after Kris came out as gay. And that was immediate. And that was 2017. And it’s been life-altering for me. And then, a couple years ago, they said, “I’m actually nonbinary and gay.” And we’re like, “Okay. We can do this.” And we learned new pronouns and they wanted a name that was -- and I always wondered how I would be if they changed their name. And when they approached me and said, “I want a name that is non gendered, that is gender neutral, and would it be okay?”
And I had had the name of my first son and daughter picked out when I was 12. And my first son was named after my favorite uncle who I was so close to. And they knew this. So when they approached me, it was with more trepidation and more nerves than when they came and said that they were gay or nonbinary. And when they said, “Is it okay if I change my name?” I could look them in the eye, with no hesitation at all, and said, “You know what, that name is my connection. That connection I have to that name is all me. He died when I was 12. You have no clue who this person is. You have no connection to that name. Only I do and my family I grew up in because they knew my uncle. But if you’ve found a name that you feel more you in, then please, let me know and I will work on calling you by your name because that’s who you are.”
And they were like, “Really?” And I’m like, “Yeah.” And I was like, yes, I’ve made a right move, mom. And then I always love to tell people that, I mean, it was hard. We had the tornado, the cyclone, when Kris came out as gay. And it was a lot of learning and unlearning and changing. We had to unlearn a lot from growing up in the conservative religion.
MARCIE: And relearn things when they came out as nonbinary. But the hardest part, by far, of raising Kris has been when they came out as vegetarian. [laughter]
RHONDA: I agree.
I mean, the easiest part is having a child that’s non-binary and gay, then you guys got it because trying to refigure meals for a vegetarian is hard. I’m keeping it real.
JEN: I think, Marcie, so many of our listeners are going to relate to those experiences of breaking out of boxes and seeing life in color and being able to rest in that. So thank you for articulating that and sharing that with us.
I want to thank all of you for coming today and sharing pieces of your heart with us and our listeners. And I want to echo the joy and the celebration that we all experienced in opening our minds and the gratitude we feel for the kids who brought that for us. So, thank you all so much for coming.
BRANDI: Thank you.
LISA: Thank you.
MARCIE: Thank all of you, so much.
ERIN: Thank you.
RHONDA: Thank you.
ELIZABETH: Thank you.
PAM: Thank you. Thanks Mamas.
JEN: Thanks for joining us here, In The Den. If you enjoyed this episode, please tell your friends, and take a minute to leave a positive rating and review wherever you listen. Good reviews make us more visible and help us reach more folks who could benefit from listening. And if you’d like to help Mama Dragons in our mission to support, educate, and empower the parents of LGBTQ children, please donate at mamadragons.org or click the donate link in the show notes. For more information on Mama Dragons and the podcast, you can follow us on Instagram, or Facebook, or visit our website at mamadragons.org.