Mama Dragons supports, educates, and empowers mothers of LGBTQ children, but we also celebrate and acknowledge the importance of affirming fathers. In this episode of In the Den, Jen talks with three dads of LGBTQ kids about their experiences and learned wisdom from raising their queer kids.
Special Guest: Lance Sweeten
Lance Sweeten holds a bachelor's degree in engineering and works as a façade designer in Salt Lake City, UT. He’s a husband and proud father of four children. His oldest daughter is transgender. He serves as a board member and administrator for the FB group "Dragon Dads," an organization dedicated to educating and supporting fathers of queer kids. Lance works with Equality Utah and the ACLU of Utah, where he actively opposes anti-LGBTQ legislation in the state's house and senate. Recognizing the need for parental support, Lance established the FB group "Shades of Love," which empowers parents and caregivers of LGBTQ+ children.
Special Guest: Pat Wright
Pat has been a part of the Dragon Dads for about five years. He loves camping, hiking, and adventures all around the world. He enjoys spending time with all his kids and helping them grow into adults. He has six kids–four stepkids, two biological kids, one trans son, and one bisexual daughter. He loves to participate in Pride and volunteer in the community. Besides volunteering with Project Rainbow and LGBTQ+ group at work he also runs a not-for-profit called Utah Geek Events that puts on events for the tech community in Utah
Special Guest: Ralf VonSosen
Ralf came to the U.S. from Austria in high school. He made his way to Utah where he earned degrees from BYU and the University of Utah. After marrying his high school sweetheart, they moved to the CA Bay Area where they raised four kids. When their third child came out as gay, it shook their conservative Mormon family narrative and launched them on a new journey that included the welcoming of their transgender daughter. Ralf and his wife Wendy recently moved to Salt Lake City, Utah.
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In the Den is made possible by generous donors like you. Please help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today at www.mamadragons.org.
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Mama Dragons supports, educates, and empowers mothers of LGBTQ children, but we also celebrate and acknowledge the importance of affirming fathers. In this episode of In the Den, Jen talks with three dads of LGBTQ kids about their experiences and learned wisdom from raising their queer kids.
Special Guest: Lance Sweeten
Lance Sweeten holds a bachelor's degree in engineering and works as a façade designer in Salt Lake City, UT. He’s a husband and proud father of four children. His oldest daughter is transgender. He serves as a board member and administrator for the FB group "Dragon Dads," an organization dedicated to educating and supporting fathers of queer kids. Lance works with Equality Utah and the ACLU of Utah, where he actively opposes anti-LGBTQ legislation in the state's house and senate. Recognizing the need for parental support, Lance established the FB group "Shades of Love," which empowers parents and caregivers of LGBTQ+ children.
Special Guest: Pat Wright
Pat has been a part of the Dragon Dads for about five years. He loves camping, hiking, and adventures all around the world. He enjoys spending time with all his kids and helping them grow into adults. He has six kids–four stepkids, two biological kids, one trans son, and one bisexual daughter. He loves to participate in Pride and volunteer in the community. Besides volunteering with Project Rainbow and LGBTQ+ group at work he also runs a not-for-profit called Utah Geek Events that puts on events for the tech community in Utah
Special Guest: Ralf VonSosen
Ralf came to the U.S. from Austria in high school. He made his way to Utah where he earned degrees from BYU and the University of Utah. After marrying his high school sweetheart, they moved to the CA Bay Area where they raised four kids. When their third child came out as gay, it shook their conservative Mormon family narrative and launched them on a new journey that included the welcoming of their transgender daughter. Ralf and his wife Wendy recently moved to Salt Lake City, Utah.
Links from the Show:
In the Den is made possible by generous donors like you. Please help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today at www.mamadragons.org.
Connect with Mama Dragons:
Website
Instagram
Facebook
Donate to this podcast
JEN: Hello and welcome to In The Den with Mama Dragons. I’m your host, Jen. This podcast was created to walk and talk with you through this journey of raising happy, healthy, and productive LGBTQ humans. Thanks for listening. We’re glad you’re here.
For a group called Mama Dragons, it isn’t surprising that we hear a lot about mothers. But an affirming father in the life of a queer person is essential to mental health and well-being. So today we’ve invited three dads that we find exemplary to share with us their journey to becoming an affirming father. I want to note that not all things fall into gendered stereotypes, of course. So, we are hopeful that parents of all genders will find things relatable in these stories. But we’re also hopeful that we can notice some things that might be unique to those who are fathers. Today we have with us Lance Sweeten, Ralf VonSosen, and Pat Wright. Welcome. Welcome.
PAT: Thank you.
RALF: Thank you.
LANCE: Thank you.
JEN: Can we start by having each of you introduce yourselves. Tell us a little about your family and maybe your entry into this world of queer advocacy?
LANCE: My name is Lance Sweeten. I live in Woods Cross, Utah. My wife Tiffany, we live here. We have four children. My oldest is trans. She’s been out since she was 15. It’s been about 13 years. She’s 27 now. She’s married to a wonderful man. We love him. They’re doing good. They’ve been married now 6 years. And then I have two daughters after Gwen and then I have a son that is in high school, so it’s my youngest. My daughter came out when she was in high school and it was not an easy thing. We knew something was up. We knew something was going on. But we didn’t know what. And we just kind of kept prodding and asking and asking until my wife, her mom, finally was able to get out of her what it was. And she said that she was trans. And you could’ve knocked us over with a feather. We just never saw it coming. If she would’ve said she was gay, we'd have understood that. But this was something completely new. And so it was a little bit hard to wrap your brain around it a little bit. And, at the time, 13 years ago, there was not a lot of support. There was not a lot of places to go and things to turn to. So we couldn’t turn to our families, really. So we just kind of held it inside for a little bit until we could try to find some people. And then we ended up finding a few people that are now friends that were in the same situation that were able to kind of get to know us and explain to us and tell us to calm down and tell us, “It’s Okay. You’re going to be just fine. We promise. We promise you, you’re going to be just fine. And we’ll hold your hand here.” So we had come across some people like that are really great friends. And so we just had to begin a whole journey of learning. That was the biggest thing is trying to figure out and understand what this all meant and what it meant for her future and what it meant for everything. And so we reached out to those people. We tried reaching out to our religious leaders and that didn’t go very well at all. And so we felt alone. We felt really alone. So we just kind of started that and then just moving forward, she wanted to go, she asked me if she could go to the Pride Center and I didn’t know what the Pride Center was. And I was like, OK, what is it, where’s it at. And she told me. So I said, “Yeah. It’s okay if you go, but I want to take you.” And she was like, “Okay.” So we went to the Pride Center. At the time it was on 3rd West in kind of the northern part of Salt Lake. And so we went there and she went into a class and I met the woman that was running the trans/nonbinary class. And she was really, really nice. And then I went out and waited. And I just went out in the lobby and I just asked one of the workers, I said, “Hey, I need some help. I just need somebody to talk to. I’m a dad here, I have this kid. I don’t understand. I need to be able to ask hard questions and somebody be able to answer me and not get offended.” And the woman that I talked to was Liz Owens. And she was working for the Pride Center. She’s now the head of the YWCA in Salt Lake, a wonderful, wonderful woman. And she spent an hour with me and sat there with me. And within that hour, she changed my life. She changed and gave me a perspective that I needed to move forward.
JEN: That’s awesome.
LANCE: So that’s kind of how we kind of got into this whole thing. And then we’ve progressed and done a lot more and stuff like that. I am a member of the Dragon Dads. I’m one of the board members and membership admin for the Dragon Dads. I’ve been a part of that pretty much after it started and do a lot of other things. But that’s just kind of a basic intro to me.
JEN: Fantastic. Thank you so much, Lance. Who’s next?
PAT: My name’s Pat Wright. I have two biological kids and I have four step kids. I remarried about two years ago. So that’s kind of my whole group. I have one bisexual daughter and one trans son. And it’s just been an interesting journey for me because it’s a little different. My daughter came out when she was about 16 as bisexual, or maybe 17. She’s going to kill when she hears this and I don’t know the exact date and everything. But she came out to me and honestly when she first came out and everything, I was very much okay with that and accepting because when I was in college and even late high school back in the early 90s, I had gay friends. It was just something that I knew and I was around all the time. And I was never a heavy religious person. A lot of people in the area are religious in some way or something else. But I was not. And so I grew up in a situation where this was all normal and acceptable to me in the mid 90s. And that was not a normal thing in the mid ‘90s. Trust me. It was not a normal thing. But for me, it was. It was a very common thing. So when my daughter came out, it was very much less of a shock. It was more like, “Okay, we can accept this and we can work on this and we can do these things and everything else.” My son came out as trans about three years later. And that was a little bit different. I talked about this last night. I told him I’m going to mention this. He said, “Dad, you said when I came out, you’re never going to use my proper name and stuff.” And I said, “No. I didn’t. I did not say that.” I said, “I love you and I’m going to figure this out and it’s going to take me time and everything,” because it was a big difference for me. It was like you did something for 17 years of someone’s life and then all of the sudden you were supposed to change and say something different and everything. That was very, very hard for me. And so I did get better at it and I got really good at it. And, basically, that one was much more of a shock to me and much more of a surprise. But it's something that I’ve worked on greatly now and that I do very well. And kind of with Lance, too, I found the Dragon Dads. It was about a year after. It was right at the next Pride we went to. And we had gone to Pride many times before because we always loved it anyways. But I went to Pride and I met the Dragon Dads and stuff and that changed everything because then I had other people that I could talk to, that I could relate this to, and I could tell them, “How do I switch? How do I talk about this? How do I change what’s been in my head for 17 years and stuff, and how do I do that?” And they were there to help and support that. I’ve really done the same thing too. I’ve been very active with the Dragon Dads, helping in other places, and helping do other things. Lance and I were sitting next to each other on The HIll last year when we were talking about bills and stuff. And I just try to do any of those things I can to help with that organization because my kids love to see it as well. And that’s what I’ve tried to do for my kids is I’ll be as active as I can for them. And I’ll try to help and support them in any way I can. And that’s really what I figured out on this journey, is that you’ve got to find out what they really want and what they’re going for and go for that. My son hopefully has surgery here in a couple, I mean, he’s got a consultation coming up later this year. He’s on T and he’s done all those things. He changed his birth certificate last year. So we’re really proud of him for that. So it’s been a great journey and I look forward to it more.
JEN: That's awesome. Thanks, Pat. We love the Dragon Dads, absolutely love the Dragon Dads. Alright, Ralf, help us get to know you a little bit.
RALF: Alright. Perfect. Well, I think Wendy will be very impressed that I was able to stay quiet and go third out of the group. Ralf VonSosen, and some of the listeners might be familiar with the VonSosen name. Wendy VonSosen’s been very active in the Mama Dragons for quite some time now. So a little bit about me. I grew up in Austria and Brazil, and moved to Connecticut when I was in high school. And during those years, I grew up in a very agnostic – I would say – household. Religion wasn’t really a thing to talk about at all. And in high school, I met Wendy, my wife, and she was a very devout Mormon. Through an indirect path, I ended up in Provo as well, graduating from BYU, not being LDS. And then, at the end, became LDS. We got married. And then raised four kids in The Bay Area after I got my Master’s degree at The U. And raised the children in a very kind of straight and narrow LDS household. Wendy specifically was very straight and narrow. And, so, we have four kids. Oldest one is now 28. She lives in Tempe. I’ve got a son who’s just graduating law school who is three years less than that, so 25. And I’ve got a 22-year-old daughter and 19-year-old son. And so when our third was in early teens, she came out as gay. And so that was really something that sent us on a new journey and on a new path. And, for me, I think it was not nearly as jarring as it was for my wife just because of my background. And for me, I think, attending church and all that was more of a social construct rather than an all-or-nothing construct always. So we went along that, started kind of getting into that equilibrium of life. And then, after Eric’s freshman year at Loyola Marymount in LA, that’s when she made the decision to transition to female, to a woman. And I think that was sort of another experience that we went through – another stage that we went through – that we were obviously more prepared for than the first time around. But that was sort of part of the journey. And, as a family, I think it definitely very much changed our relationship with the LDS church just because it wasn’t a supporting place for one of our children in any way. And Wendy became very involved with the Mama Dragons. I, through her, became also involved a little bit with Encircle, but then also with the Mama Dragons. But, frankly for me, if I just talk about my story here, I haven’t been involved with Dragon Dads at all. I haven’t been involved with any organization, really. For me, it’s actually been interesting because I still attend church on an irregular basis and have kind of stayed in touch with a lot of friends in Elder’s quorum and with, on a social construct with, church. And I’m the only one in our family that sort of attends regularly now. But, yeah, it's been a really interesting journey. From my perspective, I’ve never – And maybe it is sort of the difference, that’s why I made that point of being raised in an agnostic household to start with and all that – supporting Eric and that journey, I never felt any sort of conflict in that on a personal level. That’s a little bit about me. Back to you, Jen.
JEN: Perfect. I love all these perspectives and getting to know you guys a little bit. As a parent, and I think all parents can relate, we are often trying to support our spouse, or our partner if we have one,and support all of our children in all of the ways. So I’m interested in the difference for each of you in your journey – Lance touched on it a little bit – but what sort of support did You need to help you have – there’s all the analogies – all the spoons in your bucket to be able to push that support forward to your family?
PAT: I can definitely start on this one, I think. Mine, it was a very interesting time. So my oldest daughter came out and I got divorced basically, right after that. So all of the sudden, not only was that going on and everything else, but I didn’t really have a partner in that situation and stuff. And there was some discussion back and forth and how do we deal with this. But if anybody’s ever been through a divorce or something like that, you don’t always have amicable terms and stuff and you’re not communicating the same way. So, for me, it was kind of less about that and more just how do I take care of my kids. And that is where I tried to find other organization to help me. We did Encircle. My daughter did Encircle. My son’s gone to Encircle. We love Encircle very much. And so I tried to find other organizations that could help me and I could partner and do that sort of thing. So I looked less to my family, necessarily, and more to outside into those other places because my family was very disjointed at the time – is probably the nicest way to say it in other words. And so it was a very big difference for me to go, and I just found whatever organization I could, essentially, to work with really was what I was working for.
JEN: Fantastic. How about you, Ralf?
RALF: For me, personally, being that we were in The Bay Area, I was working in the tech sector there. I was working in a very progressive type of environment. So there was no lack in colleagues that I had and people around that I could just freely talk to about. So I think really being in an environment like that, made it easy to be able to have some very interesting and thoughtful side conversations with individuals. And also, I think maybe one of the things that was most helpful, was talking to younger people that I was working with, people that were in their early mid-twenties that I was working with and understand their journey a lot better from their perspective. So then, I think that made me feel more confident about how I talk to Eric and how I talk to my kids. But one of the things that stands out to me is, early on I was having a conversation, I approached Eric and I said to her, I was like, “I know I don’t say a lot about hey, this is fine. I love you any way you are and this and that.” And just trying to sort of reassure her because I didn’t say that that much because to me it was like, that’s fine. It’s great. And she looked at me and she goes, “Dad, this is probably a harder conversation for you than it is for me.” And that was a really sort of important moment where it’s like it’s okay that it’s hard to do but you gotta do it. And maybe don’t assume that it’s so hard for a person hearing it just because it’s hard for you.
JEN: Did you – little sidebar question for you, Ralf – did you find it was easier to ask people and seek support in your community and work community the second time Eric came out, when she came out as trans than it was when she came out as gay? Or was it people were equally supportive both times?
RALF: I don’t know if we went outside for that kind of affirmation and that kind of support as much the second time around because I think there was already a lot of, I don’t know how to express it. I think Wendy did a lot more of that. But I wouldn’t say it was harder or easier one time or the other. I think it was just totally new the first time.
JEN: Right. That makes sense. All right, Lance, where did you find community and support for yourself?
LANCE: Well, what’s interesting is, and in the very beginning, and I’m trying to remember if you were the one who was involved with it. I had seen an interview on the news with the Mama Dragons, in the very beginning, right at the very beginning. And I can’t remember. Was that you? Were you the one involved in it?
JEN: Was it the Tribune article?
LANCE: Yeah.
JEN: Yeah.
LANCE: Okay. So when I came across that, I immediately saw that and I called my wife and I said, “Here. You’ve got to look at this. You’ve got to look these people up. You need this. This is what you need. You’ve got to get the Mama Dragons.” So that was right at the very beginning of really the Mama Dragons when my wife had joined. And so she had joined and started getting to know people. And I felt that was good for her to have a good place to go. I was a little bit different. I had friends growing up that were gay and it didn’t matter to me. It didn’t bother me whatsoever. It was just the trans thing that was the part that was confusing. Because my understanding of transgender people was completely different. And that was just the way I was raised, in the household I was raised in. And so I reached out different. I’m a very social person. I don’t have any problem coming up and talking to complete strangers about anything. And that’s why I felt I needed my wife to get something that was more tight-knit for her. And so we got her connected with Mama Dragons. And then, like I said, we started reaching out and finding people. And then we ended up finding out some of my wife’s friends all had queer kids, a whole bunch of them, and didn’t know that. And so then it kind of spread and stuff. And then we met people like the Deussens, Lathams, and people like that as we kind of moved along. And we live close to George and Alison and them. But we just kind of started growing from there and then started getting involved with different activities. And then we went to our first Pride festival. And that was like “Whoa, this is so cool. This is fun. This is great.” And then it just kind of started to spread from there. Subsequently over the years, I’ve completely been involved in the Dragon Dads. I also I spent almost two years working for the Utah Pride Center. I’m a community health worker also. And I work with Encircle. We did stuff with Encircle. We taught at Encircle in Provo. I’ve worked with Equality Utah extensively, the ACLU. Pat, yeah, we would go up and speak out against bills that are put forth in the house and the senate and things like that. And so it’s been a real big journey. A really great journey for me to finally – and I don’t know if Pat saw, I got a Dragon Dads tattoo. I have another tattoo. Pat’s got a great one, though. He got the updated logo. So these are just ways for me, I felt it was to show my daughter truly that I love and support her. I got tattoos. I inked myself up. So I’m loud and proud. So that was a huge change in our relationship, showing that I was there and that we were supportive. My wife got a tattoo also. And so that’s kind of where we’ve progressed over the years. It wasn’t easy at first. I’ll definitely tell you it wasn’t easy to understand. And changing the pronouns was very, very different. And learning how to do that, but it’s just education. 100 percent just educating yourself and talking to them and getting to know people in the community. Once you really dive into the community, you can’t but help but love it and love every one of them. And so then that’s what drives and feeds me.
JEN: Thank you for that. Most of us grow up in some pretty heteronormative spaces just by nature of being in the country, right? We’re exposed to transphobic messages or misconceptions, pretty much throughout our lives. Were there some specific biases that you had to overcome, things that you recognized after it was your own kid? And what are some of the ways you were able to kind of unpack those biases and work through them?
PAT: For me, I think a lot of it was what you were talking about is the 80s, 90s. I grew up in the 80s and stuff. And so when we had trans individuals or anything else on movies or anything like that, it was mostly made fun of, honestly. It wasn’t somebody that you were trying to learn who they were and what they were trying to do and this was their real sense. It was a joke 90 percent of the time that I remember seeing it or anything. If I go back to movies now that I’ve watched it, it was a joke. So, when my son came out, I didn’t think of it as a joke or anything. I was very concerned. I was very concerned about the rest of society, how they’re going to see it. Because I did know him and I know that he wanted to be who he wanted to be and I wanted to support that. But I was worried from my old hat – I say old because I’m talking about a while ago – but from my old hat, I had that concern. Like, are people going to see it as a joke and things like that, how I was brought up. So, for me that was a bias that I had to overcome that I had to say, “No. These are individuals. They’re trying to be who they are. And that’s what we all need to understand.” So that part was hard for me. That part was.
JEN: Great.
RALF: For me personally, I kind of relate to some of those things that Pat said. And I think, to me, again when dealing with Erik coming out as gay, I don’t want to say it wasn’t that big of an event. It didn’t really take me to wrap my head around that much. But I think in how Pat’s saying, growing up in the 80s, if you grew up in the 80s – we’re all Gen-X, right? I mean, I think at that point trans was either Tootsie and Mrs. Doubtfire or it was something very erotic kind of in that direction. So I think it takes a while for you to kind of say – and it goes a little back to having hard conversations. But it also goes back to just trying to understand and accepting what you don’t understand. And I think that’s part of the growing that you do as an individual and as a human. And hopefully anybody that comes to the point in their life where they face this kind of situation in different aspects of their family – maybe it’s the immediate like us here, or maybe it’s one off with somebody else in their family. But I think the preparation of it a lot has to do with the fact that it’s not necessarily our job, it’s not like it’s my job to understand, then if I don’t understand I don’t accept. It’s our job to accept and then seek to understand because I hear that so often when I talk to people like, “I just don’t understand why they’re blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.” That’s cool. That’s fine. It’s fine that you don’t understand. It’s not your job. It’s not about you.
JEN: Exactly.
RALF: And I think those are some of the big things that I sort of learned along the way. And then it was also preparing yourself for, this isn’t going to be like “Now I get it. Aha. That’s what it’s all about.” It’s years and years, right? And you talk about the person that’s the worst at misgendering in our family. I am so bad. It’s embarrassing. And it’s embarrassing and it’s hurtful. But it takes different people different lengths of time and different things to make it click.
JEN: Thanks, Ralf.
LANCE: I look back on things now and I just kind of look back at the way I was raised and some of my misconceptions and things. But I would get very defensive if anybody else looked at my daughter the wrong way. Like, we’d go to the grocery store or someplace and I’d be right with her. And if anybody looked at her, I would look them dead in the eyes and I’m like, “I’m going to come kick your butt.” I’m like, “You don’t even look at my kid like that.” So, I would get to where I was very, very protective. I mean, very protective because all I wanted – I was just so scared to death for her safety, for her life. And I just was scared to death. So when I had the realization – and I actually broke down and cried about this because I was very protective of her in public. But my actions in the home were contrary. So I wasn’t always the nicest. And I come across something and I don’t even remember where I read it. But it says “No child deserves to have their parent be their first bully.” And it hit me like a ton of bricks. I realized I was the problem. I was the bully to my child. It wasn’t kids at school. It wasn’t anybody I was worried about. It was me. It was their dad. And if I’m being that way, that’s not good. That is not good of me. That speaks everything of me and my insecurities and my problems. So that one was a huge game changer for me to realize that I’ve got to really understand this and move forward because I’m hurting my child. And I’m not going to do that. So that was a big one for me to get past and move forward. And luckily for me and my wife, we grew up exactly the same, we both have truck driver dads. We both have dads that weren’t around. Moms ruled the roost and nest and stuff. And so we both grew up exactly the same way. So when it comes to decisions and stuff, we actually agree on everything. We actually argue more about where we’re going to eat if we’re going to get something to eat than we do anything. All the major decisions, cars, houses, kids, everything, we’ve always agreed. So that’s one thing I’m blessed with. My wife is wonderful. We’re on the same page. Everything with our family like this, and this whole time, we were together on the same page. And it would be devastating if we weren’t. I can tell you. So I’m grateful for that.
JEN: So, in public discourse and the conversations on social media and all of those sorts of things, there’s lots of talk about masculinity. There’s accusations of toxic masculinity and then there’s accusations the other direction about the soy boys or the snowflakes and kind of a war on what it means to redefine masculinity. And I’m curious as fathers, if you experienced challenges as you’ve supported your kid from the outside that kind of tried to make you feel like you weren’t masculine for your actions or you were doing masculinity or fatherhood wrong, if you heard those kinds of messages from the outside world.
PAT: I think that that’s a really interesting angle because I think that’s something that starts way, way before you ever get to the situation you’re in, right? And I think a lot of the things we’re talking about here, right, is the ability to have trust, to be able to have a healthy dialogue, to be able to respect that individuals are different people and have different likes and different ways in expressing themselves. That all starts way before you ever get to the situation where somebody is going through the transition that we’re talking about or coming out and those things, right? And so I think it’s really important to note that it’s not like you have a completely dysfunctional family, somebody comes out and all the sudden you’re going to apply all these tools and things of a very healthy, functional group.
JEN: Right.
RALF: And the reason I say that is because to me, this concept of masculinity, I think is toxic – when I think about toxic is this is a one-size-fits-all for all situations, right? The way masculinity is for me, and the way I like to do things in terms of extreme backcountry skiing or doing triathlons or whatever it is, is very different from the masculinity of someone that enjoys drawing and painting and expresses themselves in the violin or something like that. And one is not necessarily more masculine than the other. And I think, so part of that becomes, “Well, then how do you express yourself? What makes you, you?” And I think it’s one of those things where it’s like for me – let me give you an example, one of the things that Erik wanted to do when she came out, this is before she became trans, was she wanted to start wearing makeup, right? And, Jen, I think you’re very familiar with the story, right? We were very nervous about that. And then I went to her and I said, and it was before she transitioned so she was a gay boy at that point, right? So I was “OK, so let’s go to Sephora and why don’t you show me what you know about makeup. Teach me. I don’t know anything about makeup, but you show me.” And I think that that kind of showed her that it’s about her and her interests and what’s important to her. And to me, it was also about showing to everybody in my family, my boys and everybody, that masculinity is about respect. That that’s a big part of it, recognizing individuals for who they are.
JEN: Yeah. I like that. And I do remember. I remember Erik coming back to the youth and just bragging about having the coolest dad in the universe. So I was on the other side of that story and it’s one of my favorites. How about you, Lance?
LANCE: When you talk about the masculinity and things, society has sold men a bill of goods for centuries that we’re supposed to be the tough, the strong, the rock, the football, the mechanic and all these things to make you hard. Well, we’re Gen X here. Our parents were either the silent generation or our grandparents were from the depression. And those two generations didn’t talk, didn’t communicate, kept their mouths shut, because if they didn’t, they usually got a whipping. They usually got beat, in reality of it. And so children back then were meant to be seen, not heard. And so nobody ever said anything. That’s why we have, in society, a problem with the baby boomers and the Gen X and what we have now, Millennials, is we have a disconnect where we were never taught about, never talked about finances, never talked about sex, never talked about all these different things that we needed to learn. And so what it is is now our kids have the internet and have all these other things to do where we’re kind of caught in between. But when it comes to the masculinity, like I said, men have been sold a bill of goods that it's not good to have emotions. It’s not good to cry. It’s not good to do these things. Well, because of all that stuff, it has caused a very serious problem with mental health because we talk a lot about it. And look how many women versus men see therapists and talk about their feelings. Why? Because it’s still not “manly” for a man to talk about his feelings or to get emotional or to hug his children or be kind to his children. I mean, my dad was never even allowed to see any of his children, kind of thing. So you can see where that generation gap is. And I think, for us as GenX, we have to get out of our own heads and we have to break that, break the chain because we need to be able to show that as dads, that we’re loving and we’re compassionate. Not just like my kids, there are a lot of kids, queer or straight, that I have got to know that I love. And I will tell them I love them and stuff because not every kid hears that from a parent and especially a dad. For a dad to be able to be that kind of sincere and stuff, and I really learned and I will throw this out there. I really learned that being a part of the Dragon Dads and the Mama Dragons, I have really learned that and seen that amplified and just seen that example of others. And that I have learned probably the most from being part of that is just that it’s OK to love and say that you love them and be emotional and cry and be gooey as a dad, because that actually is more masculine. That is far more stronger than just the brute, typical, old-school, male bravado.
PAT: I’ve got to add to that, Lance. Just come see us at Pride. The Dragon Dads booth. Come get a hug from me or Dave or any one of the people that are there. And you’ll quickly learn what a dad hug is like and what that means because that’s a life changing event for us when they do that.
JEN: When we’re talking to our kids about gender and sexuality, it kind of changes as we mature and as we grow and we learn more about that. And I’m wondering if you guys can articulate how you talk to your own kids about gender and sexuality and biological sex and all of those topics now that you’ve been introduced at a deeper level to this LGBTQ world.
PAT: So, for me on that one, and I’ll go back to being first I guess because I just naturally do this. But, honestly, I screwed all this up. I’ll be 100 percent frank, that goes back to the men being vulnerable and everything else. I screwed it all up. So when I was married and when we had our kids and everything else, they were both female, essentially. And I kind of left all of that sexual discussion and everything to my wife. As a dad, I was like, “I really think that should be your part. I really think that you should be doing that.” And I didn’t really talk about it. And so by the time my oldest came out as bisexual, she was already 17. She kind of already knew most of the things she needed to know or she was figuring it out on her own and stuff. And by the time my son came out when he was 17, he actually came out as asexual as well. And so he didn’t really ever want to talk about it or anything or any of those things. And, again, I believe my ex had some of those talks and stuff, but I kind of stayed out of it. And that’s kind of just the way I did it. And, like I said, was that a mistake? I don’t know. I mean, I don’t talk to them about it too much and I probably should. But they’ve both ended up fine and they both know who they are and what they want now, too, as well. So we’ll see if they want to talk to me more about it or not. But I know they’ve gone to where they needed to go. They’ve figured out what they needed to do and they got there. I’m not as concerned about it moving forward. But definitely, I think I kind of screwed that up and let it go.
JEN: I do appreciate that vulnerability, Pat, because I think a lot of us screw up a lot of things in parenting. I think that’s part of it.
PAT: We’re parents, we screwed things up.
RALF: Well, I’m thinking through it and I know there was with, I was probably kind of like Pat. We had our first two and it was traditional, “Our oldest one's a girl so Wendy’s going to talk to her. And then, our second one’s a boy, so I’m going to talk to him.” And it was all very much sort of like “by the book” if you will in terms of – not the way our parents talked to us because there was no conversation ever – but it was more like, hey you got the little books and stuff and all that. And I think beyond that, I think when I don’t really remember having those deep conversations with them about sexuality and all that. It was a little bit more like assuming that some of the details were already covered. And maybe I’m melding this a little bit with the earlier question about masculinity, but I think there’s definitely the approach that my wife and I have had is that she does take the role of having some more of those intimate and tender conversations. And my role has been more of – again I don't know what you call it. It’s traditional, but I don’t know if you have to call it masculinity – I think you call it, my conversations have always been more around the self-confidence, the individual growth, the decision making, helping them feel like they can stand up for themselves and those kinds of things. So I have to say well, that’s really hasn’t been my department if you will. And I know that sounds terribly traditional or something, but I would kind of say I had the privilege of being able to divide and conquer like that because of the wonderful wife that I have. So I could focus on some of those things that feel like, hey, I’m helping prepare them to face the harsher realities of the world, while Wendy was definitely much more able to play the role of helping them discover themselves.
JEN: And this is interesting to me because in our family, I took a lot of those roles also. But when I look back to my first, I can think of all these conversations that were very heteronormative, right? Talking to my oldest son about how you treat a woman and what women deserve and the role of a man and those kinds of things. Even biological safe sex practices and all of those sorts of conversations. And when you find a wife, and when you have children, and those conversations were so narrow. But maybe it was all of your wives that were having those narrow conversations that expanded in the long run. Maybe you guys got to be consistent.
LANCE: Mine was definitely my wife, definitely the more nurturer and caregiver. Growing up during that whole time, I worked two jobs. So I just worked all the time. So she would get her chance to get even with me in the sense of she’d make sure I went to all the maturation classes with the kids at the school just to make sure I was being involved and being a part of it. But there was a lot of it, and like I said, Jen, my oldest is trans. So that was a whole different thing from the first to the last. And I look at the last, my son, and it’s almost like, “Eh, he’s figuring everything out.” And he’s the baby, but I’m the baby in my family. So I realized, by the time it got around to me, the parents were just worn out and just kind of gave up. And so I find some of the same reaction to my son is like kind of talk to him and he goes, “Dad, this is getting weird.” And I’m like, “it’s weird for you too? OK. We’re good? We’re good.” And so kind of move along. But definitely the conversation is different from your first to your last when it comes like that. But I am really grateful for my wife that she always would step in those spots where I felt uncomfortable. And a lot of that I felt uncomfortable growing up and seeing things I did and a lot of times those weren’t the places for men to have those conversations because then it could be misconstrued, it can be taken out of context. And I never wanted to cross a line somewhere with the kids and with daughters and stuff like that. And so I followed along some of the same kind of patriarchal kind of thing. And, at the time too, we were in the church. We were religious at the time and so those roles kind of did play a factor into our home and how we did things. And so that was also a factor too.
RALF: I think one thing to add to that is that these kinds of conversations, and I’ll expand it to broader conversations about whether it’s you’re having a conversation about racism, whether you’re having conversations about transgender or other issues. I think being able to develop the kind of dynamics in the family where you can have those conversations in a natural way, in the time when it’s the right time and place, is extremely important. So that’s kind of learning from hindsight. So, rather than being, “Okay, you know what?” –for kicks and giggles, let’s say – “On the 10th birthday, you’re going to go on a father-son date and you’re going to talk about masturbation.” It’s like, okay, maybe we should kind of play this by ear a little bit more. Not in avoiding it, but in addressing it when some of things are in the right place or it’s part of the conversation or it’s something, right, because it’s awkward enough to start with. And I sort of mentioned the other things there like racism or other things where I think it’s just part of creating this dynamic as a family that I was saying before about having healthy family dynamics and then you can address them at the point when it’s the right time and place to talk about it rather than spending 80 percent of your effort creating the right time and place and then only having 20 percent left over for the actual conversation.
JEN: That poor kid who has to go on the masturbation date with dad. Sounds like not a dream date for any kid.
PAT: And not to take us too far back and I don’t know how we’re doing on time. But I just had one story about the masculinity that I wanted to share too.
JEN: Yes, please.
PAT: Because it’s very recent and it was on my mind. So, once again, for me, we’ve all said here, I grew up in the 80s and 90s. So, yes, I have a set picture of masculinity and everything else. I was a football player. I did all those things. For me, it was a very different thing. But I’m also extremely lucky. I’m extremely lucky because somebody told me once, do what your kids love and learn what your kids love and do those things. And so, when my son came out as trans, I immediately said to myself, “I can’t go play football or something with him. I can’t go do these things.” We did throw around the football and stuff and there was certain things that I saw as a kid that he liked. But it wasn’t the same thing. I couldn’t go and do those same exact things. And I had to just say, “What does he see as masculinity and what is he trying to do?” And then I would try to relate to that. So, I think it was last night or it might’ve been the day before, I took him to work, drove over to work. And he goes, “Dad, my beard just keeps growing.” Because he’s currently taking T and I have a big beard. I come from a very long line of big-bearded people. And he’s like, “It just keeps growing and I just have to shave it all the time.” And I’m like, “Welcome to masculinity and what it means and everything else.” So, for me, that was him defining masculinity to him and his sense. And, yes, maybe a beard does say masculinity or something else. But there’s also so many other things in your life that can say masculinity. It really depends on the person. We have to get out of this idea that this image of a person is masculinity. It’s that that person has to decide what masculinity is to them and they have to explain it to other people. And that’s how I took that whole conversation and everything else. It was a lot of fun. It was hilarious.
JEN: That is funny. Our kids are so funny. I don’t know if any of you guys would have examples or stories. When I look back at my own journey, there’s these pivotal moments that come to me. And I’m wondering if any of you have any examples from your own journey or conversations with your kid that affirmed to you over and over and over that affirming your kid was the right way to go, like, watching the impact on your kids.
PAT: I mean, almost every Pride Parade I walk in, I get to see that. My son, my daughter, they both have come out more and more as we go to those Pride things. It’s kind of our yearly thing that it’s their way of saying who they are and where they are and everything else. And it’s not only just them. Walking as a Dragon Dad, I see everybody else too. I get people coming up and giving me hugs and things like that. For me, that’s the one that reoccurs no matter what. We’re always seeing that. We’re always coming back. And it is pivotal times because everybody feels like they can be themselves there at that time. So it’s a jump every year to see that, in my opinion.
LANCE: I have to jump in here. I have to say with Pat, I have to agree with that. We started a thing when we started walking in the parades, I started walking and my wife started walking. And we’ve had my entire family, all of my kids, walk in the parade. And then this last year, it was just me and my oldest two daughters. And it was very interesting because over these years people have got to know me. And I’m very outspoken. People know me. And I talk to everybody. But working with the Utah Pride Center and all these different places that I was involved with, I’ve gotten to know so many people. So we walked. And when we walked this last parade, I was so proud and so happy to be with my kids there. But I would be, like Pat was saying, someone would holler my name on the side of the road and I’d be like “Oh, my gosh!” and I’d run over there, give them a hug. And then, Oh, and then someone over there and then run and give them a hug. My two daughters, by the time we were done, were like, “Do you know everybody? Does everybody know who you are?” And I go, “Yeah. So what?” I was having more conversations with people in the crowd and hugging more people in the crowd then I was with those of us in the parade. And what made me really proud about that is, that that is recognition that they recognize that I’m a safe place. That this straight, white, middle-aged dad who’s the number one demographic, we’re the three demographic that scares queer kids the most. In reality, that is the fact. And so, for me to be able to have that many people know me and love me and say hi and want a hug and talk to me, that tells me I’m doing the right job. I’m doing the right thing because they recognize me and they feel that I’m a safe place for them. So there’s just nothing more rewarding in this life. Honestly, there’s just nothing.
JEN: That’s awesome. Ralf, we already kind of leaked one of yours, “doing it right” stories. Do you have another example?
RALF: I think that’s my best one. That’s my big finish.
JEN: That’s a pretty solid one.
RALF: I think the big thing for me really is that I can speak a little bit to some other dads out there too. When it’s within the four walls of our home, I know that with all my heart, all my might, that I’m a supporter of Erik and her. But I know I’m not the number one safe place for her. I’m probably, out of the people that we have here, I’m probably the last place, right? Because there’s a lot there. She’s so, so close with Wendy and she always has been – Wendy my wife, you know. And with her siblings that are there and have a very strong bond with them. And maybe that’s part of what I feel like is my biggest achievement that I can do is have this really safe place for her. And we have a very good relationship and it feels great when she comes to me and asks me for advice on maybe an interview that she’s getting a job. And I actually went down to visit her in LA and we had a good time and a great dinner and a great conversation together. We have a wonderful relationship. Again, I think my calling is to give her strength. That’s the thing I can do. I can make her feel like she can take on the world and she can look people in the eye and go tell them to do whatever she wants them to do. It doesn’t have to be a negative thing. So I don’t know. I don’t want to get weird here, but it’s like I just feel like I’m trying to express something that I feel like my role is a little bit different in that sense. And it’s not that I necessarily don’t want to be her number one safe place or something. But I know that that’s a role that maybe some of my other family members, especially Wendy and her siblings are fulfilling for her.
JEN: This actually reminds me so much of my own dad. And I’ve talked about it before. But he was absolutely my number one champion. And he made me feel like I could conquer the world. And then he just kind of sat back and watched and supported. But, if I was crying, I went to my mom. But he wasn’t less supportive. That just wasn’t his personality.
PAT: And I really wanted to put on your add there too, Ralf. To everybody else that’s listening and everything else, be those supporters when you can. That’s really the important part. You’re right. You don’t have to be everything to a person. But, by showing some sort of support or showing that safe space, you’ve given them that ability. One quick story on that is I put on events in the community. I help with all sorts of events and stuff. And we did an event where we had young artists and they were selling their art and everything else. And one of them was transgender. And they came up to me, and when they were registering and everything else, they saw the transgender flag on my laptop because that’s what I was registering everybody with. And they said, “Thank you for having a safe space for me.” And we were up in a town that was not necessarily very favorable to transgender individuals. But we were up there and we were okay. And so they felt very safe knowing that there was somebody there to help support them. So those little things, those little stickers, those little things, Ralf, that you’re doing, that makes the difference to make people feel like it. I know that one of the main reasons I got this on my arm was not only to show my kids support, but to show everyone else. I didn’t without a shirt, my hat, or something else. If you see me and you see that logo, there’s no question what it does. And people ask me all the time, what is that logo? And I’ll tell them, “It’s the Dragon Dads. This is what we do.”
JEN: That’s so awesome. Before I let you guys go. I’m hoping that each of you will take a minute and think about potentially any fathers that might be listening and share a message that might be specific to them.
PAT: Mine’s easy, like I said, I got really, really lucky and it’s kind of a funny story. But I found a mentor in my technical career in my life early on. And this gentleman was the epitome of what you would call a cowboy. Think of John Wayne, 100 percent. Lived out in Lehi, owned horses, ran horses, everything else. But he was a technical person. And he was an amazing, amazing guy. But he learned a very, very important lesson in his life. And he said, “You have to learn to do what your kids love.” And that’s the most important thing for anything. Just learn to do what they love and learn to spend time with them. And he learned that because his son got into alcohol and drugs and things like that. And he had to figure that out and he learned it the hard way. But he taught it to me and then that’s all I did with my kids. I just find out what they love and do that. It’s the best advertisement you can do. Whatever they come out as, whatever they do, find what they enjoy. Don’t force them to do something they don’t enjoy, what you love. Find out what they love and do that. That’s my biggest advertisement to any dad to figure that out.
JEN: I love advice like that that fits on a t-shirt.
PAT: Yes.
JEN: That’s perfect, Pat. Thank you.
PAT: Yep. You’re welcome.
RALF: I would say, “Show up and be yourself.” And to explain that a little bit is that being there, just being there physically, mentally, emotionally, is 90%+ of it, right? And then, the concept of being yourself is that you don’t need to learn special skills to be able to support and to love and be there. And you don’t need to be everything to everyone, right? I don’t know Lance and Pat very well, but I’m just going to pick on Lance because of comments that he made before was, it sounds like he’s a much nicer guy to get a hug from than me. Fine. That’s great! Go to Lance and get a hug. It’s okay that I’m not the person that, that’s not my forte, right? Because if that’s what I try to do, it’s not going to be genuine. Not that I don’t give good hugs but people will know if you’re genuine, what your interest is, how to make people grow, how to bring the best out of them. Use those skills. Don’t feel like you have to develop all the sudden this new set of skills to do it. Just show up and be yourself.
LANCE: Exactly. I agree with Ralf. I’m just that kind of person. And I know plenty of people that are not, and that doesn’t mean that they’re anything less or don’t give good hugs or don’t do anything else. It’s just like you said, I kind of attribute it to – which is really interesting because the queer community is very much like a dog or a cat has the senses. When they talk about how an animal can sense, they just know if you’re a good person or not if they come up to you or something like that – I’ll be telling you this, the queer community is exactly the same way. They can smell fake a mile away. They can tell. So you’re 100% right. Never, in a million years, would I ever want to be fake or try to put out something I’m not. This just happens to be me. So you’re correct. And for dads out there that are looking. First of all, my hat’s off to dads that are looking because a lot of dads don’t look for something. But just as an example, we have the Dragon Dads, there’s Encircle, there’s other organizations. There’s Peculiar. There’s other different places. Doesn’t mean you have to join any or all of these. You need to find what’s true to you for the dads. But, if anything, find something, do something, step up, learn, educate yourself, get involved, participate with activities with your queer children. Go to their events. Go to the things that are important to them, like Pat said. It’s not our place or our right to push our lives on them because how would we have felt if it was the other way around, when we were pushed to be forced or something. I was never really forced to do anything growing up like that. I grew up in the typical household. But if I was forced to do something, I would’ve rebelled. And so it’s like, don’t force them to do something. You meet them in their space. You meet your children and you meet these kids in their space. And there’s other places, there’s things you can go to. And I’ll just give a plug, a shameless plug, when I was working for the Utah Pride Center, I was working with trans individuals and stuff. And then I was also running the parents and caregivers group. Now, the Utah Pride Center, everybody knows it’s kind of gone through some stuff. They’ve completely restructured and they're completely 100% new and changed. They’ve invited me to come back and run the parents and caregivers group and not as an employee. I’m just volunteering. So they’re changing the way these things do. So, me and there’s another Dragon Dad that’s going to help me with it. So they’re going to have two straight, white, middle-aged dads running the parents and caregivers group in there. and I think it’s a very good thing for them to see. So I would throw this out to anybody out there. If you do, come see us. My core on this, I have a Facebook group and I think it’s called Shades of Love. And so it’s empowering parents and caregivers of LGBTQ children. So if anybody hears this it’s Shades of Love on Facebook. It’s Shadesoflove71@gmail.com. You can reach out to me and get involved. And I’ve created a 52 week program for helping parents and caregivers come from, “Oh, my gosh. My kid’s queer. What is this?” To fully accepting, fully understanding, fully involved within a year. And just an educational program. Just, if anything, just step out of your comfort zone and do something and get involved.
JEN: I love everything you guys said about supporting your kids where they’re at. I have one when I would say, “Do you want to do Pride?” and he’d be like, “No.” And I’m like, “But you’re gay. We should go to Pride together.” And he’d be like, “No. Thanks.” And he would say, “If you want to go, I’ll support you.” And then another who’s like, “Why aren’t we going to Pride, of course we should be going to Pride.” And that idea of listening to your kids and stuff really resonates with me. So thank you for that. I want to thank each of you for coming today, for showing up in the middle of the afternoon to give us a couple of hours of your time and share your awesomeness and your insight that you’ve gained with our listeners. You guys are all great. Thanks.
RALF: Thank you.
LANCE: Thank you so much for having us.
JEN: Thanks for joining us here In the Den. If you enjoyed this episode, please tell your friends, and take a minute to leave a positive rating and review wherever you listen. Good reviews make us more visible and help us reach more folks who could benefit from listening. And if you’d like to help Mama Dragons in our mission to support, educate, and empower the parents of LGBTQ children, please donate at mamadragons.org or click the donate link in the show notes. For more information on Mama Dragons and the podcast, you can follow us on Instagram or Facebook or visit our website at mamadragons.org.