Just the FAQ’s: Moms of Trans Adults

In this episode of In the Den, Jen joins three moms whose trans kids came out and transitioned as young adults. They’ll answer a handful of frequently asked questions regarding the unique experiences of parenting an adult trans child.

Special Guest: Chrysteil Hunter

Chrysteil Hunter lives in Mill Creek, Washington, and is a single mom of four incredible adult kids, one 10 year old son, and has a 5 year old grandson. She works full time, one-on-one, with kids on the autism spectrum. She has been a member of Mama Dragons since 2015, serving in many positions, including WA/AK regional coordinator, board member, Director of Education, Director of the D&I Committee, & QPR suicide prevention training instructor. She loves the mountains, road trips, listening to audio books, and most of all, spending time with her kids.

Special Guest: Chrisann Toelupe

Chrisann Toelupe is a married mom of four living in a rural Utah town.  She has been affiliated with Mama Dragons since her son came out as gay.  A few years later, another child would come out as transgender.  Through it all, her family has remained close by loving and supporting each other as their authentic selves. When Chrisann is not vacationing in Disneyland, she is watching Disneyland YouTube videos and planning more trips to Disney.  

Special Guest: Shauna Jones

Shauna has been an active member of Mama Dragons since 2015. She hates winter, yet still finds herself living in the state of Idaho. Shauna has a husband, three young adult children (one of whom is transgender), a one eyed black lab, and an exuberant golden retriever puppy. Shauna loves running and all things rainbow.

Links from the show:

Mama Dragons website: www.mamadragons.org 

Mama Dragons on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mamadragons 

Mama Dragons on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/themamadragons/ 

The Family Acceptance Project: https://lgbtqfamilyacceptance.org/ 

In the Den is made possible by generous donors like you. Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today at mamadragons.org. 

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Transcript

JEN: Hello and welcome to In The Den with Mama Dragons. I’m your host, Jen. This podcast was created to walk and talk with you through this journey of raising happy, healthy, and productive LGBTQ humans. Thanks for listening. We’re glad you’re here.

In the middle of January we launched episode – number 54 – which was, Frequently Asked Questions of Moms with Transgender Minors. Today we are going to do a very similar episode… that is also exactly the opposite. Today we are going to talk to moms who have transgender adult children, where the children began their transition in adulthood. Young adulthood, but adulthood, nonetheless. And I’m going to ask a lot of the same questions to this different group.

In the previous episode, our moms all needed to use pseudonyms to protect their minor children. But this time all of the children are adults and have made the personal choice for themselves to be out publicly. So, welcome today to Chrisaan Toelupe, Chrysteil Hunter, and Shauna Jones.

CHRYSTEIL: Thank you, Jen.

CHRISANN: Hi.

SHAUNA: Thanks, Jen. 

JEN: I want to start off with a little snapshot of each of you. So I’m hoping you can share a few sentences about yourself. Something that’ll help the listeners get a picture in their mind of each of you, so as you’re talking during the episode, they’ll feel they know something about you. I’m going to start with you, Chrysteil. 

Chrysteil is mother to the amazing Caden; he actually spoke to us in the episode regarding eating disorders. We love Caden. But introduce yourself to us, Chrysteil. 

CHRYSTEIL: I currently live in the beautiful Washington State. I’ve been here since about 2001 but was born and raised in Sandy, Utah. And I have my heart set, I’m currently single. So I focus a lot still on my adult kids even though they’re not home. I get a little more opportunity to focus on them and love doing that. But a couple of years ago, got a ten year old – well, now he’s ten so we’ve started over a little bit. And I am a dog person and I love learning. I’ve gone back to school. So that’s me.

JEN: Fantastic! We have Chrisann, who is mother to the absolutely gorgeous Khristian, who makes me smile on social media. Tell us a little about yourself, Chrisann.

CHRISANN: I love all things Disney. I’m also a very avid diet coke drinker. I have four children and I’m a kindergarten teacher and I live in rural Utah.

JEN: Fantastic. Last but not least, we have Shauna. Shauna is mother to the adventurous wilderness boy, Beckett. Give us a glimpse, Shauna, into who you are.

SHAUNA: Thanks. I’m Shauna Jones. I have three kids. Beckett is my oldest. I am obsessed with audiobooks. I discovered them a few years back and I always have one in my ear. I also love plants. My husband says I have too many. But we all know that is not possible. And I love to DIY. I tear things apart and rebuild them in my house and that keeps me occupied while I listen to my audiobooks.

JEN: I see how they combine there.

SHAUNA: Yeah.

JEN: Welcome to all three of you. Thank you, like genuinely, thank you for showing up to help those who want to learn and don’t always know where to go to get more information. So, the first question I want to toss at you is: When did your child start talking to you about gender and what did that kind of look like? Was there any sort of exploration in their personal identity before they started talking about gender?

CHRYSTEIL: I’ll jump in with my – I have two other kids who have come out as bi-sexual, both my daughters. But Caden was my first child to come out at all. And he was born female. And so he was a teenager at the time and had gone to a sleepover with a friend as a teen. And came home and said, “We were sitting around the kitchen table eating breakfast. And the mom was kind of saying some pretty negative things about LGBTQ people. And I realized that, if I don’t share with you that I am a lesbian, that you unintentionally might hurt me when you would never want to, because I know you would never want to.” And that started our journey into the LGBTQ world. And in a pretty quick progression, well, at first he came out lesbian, then bisexual, and then about a year later started looking at maybe he was nonbinary or in that umbrella. And then, really quickly after he was allowing himself to even dip his toe into the masculine world, he became very aware that he was trans male and pansexual. So we’ve kind of done a lot of different labels as the exploration ran its course. But it was, for him, a year of trying on just being in the LGBTQ world and figuring things out. And then a pretty rapid six months from the time he started looking at gender.

JEN: Awesome. Thanks, Chrysteil.

CHRISANN: I would say at my house, things started very early on for Khristian. She was born, we thought, male. And when she was three she loved watching movies. And she never would just sit and watch movies. She would always act out the movies. I don’t know if your kids do this. But she would always identify with the female character. So it was something that my husband and I were just kind of perplexed by, something we talked to the pediatrician about. And, I remember our pediatrician saying, “Just buy some movies that have really strong boy characters.” So we bought Sword in the Stone and she would pretend like she was Madam Min. We bought Toy Story and she would pretend she was Little Bo Peep. And we thought maybe she would like Buzz Lightyear. She’d like Woody. No. She would pretend like she was Little Bo Peep. She had a little band that she would put around her head that was from our garden and she would put a barrette in it and it was long and she would sit and flip her hair, pretend like it was her hair. And my husband would pretend and say, “Oh, look. She’s like so-and-so from the scriptures.” And I was like, “No. That is her hair. Watch her. She is flipping her hair.” Like just from a very, very young age she just read female. She just has always been a female. And I don’t think we ever know what trans was until she was much older. I think it took us watching the documentary about Katelynn Jenner for her to go, “Oh, maybe that’s me.” Because we just didn’t even know what transgender was. But we knew that she was different from other kids her age, other “boys” her age.

JEN: Perfect.

SHAUNA: Beckett came out as lesbian at around 13 to my husband and I. And when he was around 15, we found an LGBTQ conference to attend as a family. And that was the first place that any of us really had any exposure to trans people. And I remember after that conference we went home and Mike, my husband, asked Beckett if he felt like transgender was something that maybe he was. And Beckett’s response was, “Maybe. But I don’t want to talk about it.” So we didn’t for a few years. And then, when he was 18, maybe not quite 18, we were talking one day and I kept feeling that he was struggling and something was off. And I had been talking in another group about names. And I said to him, “Do you like your name?” And he kind of hesitated and he said, “Not really.” And I said, “Have you thought about a name that you’d like to be called?” And he pulled out his phone and he had a list of names that he’d been considering for a long time that he wanted to try out. And that was kind of how he came out to me as trans. We started to have a few suspicions. But it wasn’t until that conversation about names that we went, “Oh, there’s something there that we need to look at a little closer.”

JEN: I love the preparation. “Here’s my list. I’ve been waiting for you guys to catch up to me.”

SHAUNA: Yeah.

JEN: So as you guys each talk about this, I want to know – Shauna, at the end it sounds like you were more – but were you guys prepared for this conversation when it came up? How were you feeling and responding to these ideas?

SHAUNA: I was not prepared. I’ll just say that. Even as I was saying, “Do you like your name?” I was hoping that it was not. I was hoping it was fine. I was hoping there was nothing that we needed to explore because it felt really scary. And I had known by that point, thankfully I had known for several years, transgender people. And had come to understand better and love and support them. But it hits differently when it’s your child and you’re afraid for their safety and you’re afraid for what life is going to look like for them. And so I wanted to support him in what ways that he needed to be supported. But, at the same time, I had this little hope that that wasn’t that case for him because I just knew that things would be harder for him if he were trans. And once he came out, then I really started digging into more information and learning more. It’s different when you’re learning it for yourself and your family than when you’re learning it as a secondhand observer.

JEN: I think that’s for sure true.

CHRISANN: I think for me, I was making a connection when Shauna was talking about conferences because I didn’t really know about trans people, but I also have a gay son. So when Khristian was serving a mission as a boy for our church, we actually had a son who came out as gay. And so we started the same thing like Shauna was talking about, just looking for a community. Here I am this mom in rural Utah with this child that doesn’t fit the norms. And I know my oldest child doesn’t either. I just needed a group of people that understood what I was going through. So we started attending conferences that was this intersection of LGBTQ people in our conservative church. And that’s when I started hearing stories of trans people. And the more I heard about the stories, the more I started thinking, “Wow, I wonder if that’s actually what Khristian identifies as.” And so she came home off her mission and started presenting more and more female. And finally, I just asked her, I’m like, “Do you think you’re trans?” And at first she said no, but then a few months later she sent me a text where she’d written a song. That’s how she comes out to us for everything. And basically told us she was trans. And like Shauna said, it’s so much harder when it’s your own child. It’s so easy when it’s everyone else’s child and it’s like, “What are their pronouns? What’s their new name?” And you just get right on board. But when it’s your child, a lot of fear creeps in.

CHRYSTEIL: I would agree. I remember right after he came out as lesbian, that was my first experience of having any child come out at all. And getting on the internet, I was an active person in my church and got online and was like, “Religion and LGBTQ groups.” Because I didn’t know anyone who was an out gay person or lesbian person or trans person personally. And had no modeling in my own life to, A, I didn’t have anyone to go to myself. And, two, had no modeling of how to respond to my child. So, suddenly, to me it was this great responsibility to my child, for the first time in my parenting life, was far ahead of me on a path that I didn’t understand. And they could not come to me for advice or guidance in this area. And I felt like immediately, it was my job to get educated, get into the community, figure it out so that I was able to be back in that position where I could give any guidance or any meaning. So, no, it was baffling and very lonely at first because there was just no one. Besides the ramifications of religion in there also, just in my neighborhood in my life. I just didn’t have anyone that I felt like, “Oh, I know who could help me in this area.” So that’s when I found Mama Dragons, actually, was clear back there was when I found Mama Dragons way early on.

JEN: So, in my experience, I have four adult kids. And in my experience, when our children are young adults, it’s kind of like this new phase of parenting, right? They still need support and they still want validation. And this still look to you to be kind of wise or insightful. But also, we’re not really required, they don’t really legally or they’re adulting, they’re doing their own thing. We don’t have this big loud voice anymore. So what I’m wondering is, when you guys look at the bigger picture and having a transgender child and you didn’t know until they were already adults, does it make you wish they had figured it out when they were younger so that you could’ve walked through it with them? Or is it kind of a relief that, “I’m your biggest cheerleader, but this is not my job!”? Where does that land when it’s adult kids?

SHAUNA: Can I say, I know parents of little trans kids and I said to one of them once, “It’s kind of nice that you figured it out early and you can avoid the puberty and all of the things that our kids went through because they didn’t figure it out or we didn’t figure it out until they had already gone through their first puberty.” And she said, “But the pressure on a parent to make those decisions for a minor child is so intense and people are judging you and looking at you and trying to criticize your parenting.” And I was like, “Yeah, that would be really hard, that I think the pressure would be so much more intense.” But, at the same time, I really wish we had figured it out early because there were a lot of years that Beckett really struggled with mental health and dysphoria and none of us realized it was dysphoria. If we had just known, there are periods of his life where he won’t look at the pictures of himself from that time. And not even just because he had a chest. It’s because it reminds him of that really painful time of his life where he was just struggling so hard to try and figure himself out and fit into his world and he just couldn't make it work. And so I 100% wish we had figured it out early to help him through those years. But I’m grateful we figured it out when we did.

CHRYSTEIL: I echo Shauna. My child had dealt with significant mental health issues, eating disorder, had body dysmorphia where you see yourself as larger than you actually are. Multiple eating disorders and self harm. And we had years of, not just counseling, but they lost the last half of their senior year to an eating disorder treatment center. And I would give anything to have known because I fully believe, like Shauna said, that had we known, I could’ve guided him. I could’ve even considered the connection. I had nothing, no frame of reference to even consider what transgender transitioning would even look like. And also, I feel like that early piece, he struggled so much with who he was. He just really struggled with “Who am i? Am I even important?” And he had love coming from everywhere and was talented and amazing. And I would give anything to have taken years of that back also of saying, “I think this might have to do with why you’re wondering who you are.” And been able to guide early.

CHRISANN: Yeah. I feel the same way. I think, when they’re older and they’re going through the second puberty and they’re adults, they don’t want to hear advice, right?

SHAUNA: That’s so true.

CHRISANN: And if they were younger, I think they would take it more. So I think that’s where we struggle with my daughter is because I have opinions and I struggle to keep opinions to myself. I usually, if I think it, I say it. And so that’s not always appreciated by my daughter. And so I think that that’s been a struggle, like trying to give advice about girly, womanly things and dressing and hair and makeup and her not wanting to hear it because she’s a grown adult. And then also, just like the trauma and she has PTSD. And I just remember when she was little she was this gifted child. I mean, everyone thinks that about their child. But she has so many wonderful qualities and she just always looked so she wanted to crawl out of her skin. Now as I look back in pictures of her and just always so nervous. And I can’t imagine what that was like being in a body that felt foreign to you. And I wish we could’ve figured it out sooner so she could’ve felt comfortable in her skin because it just would’ve helped with the trauma and the PTSD that she is now having to deal with. So, yeah, I think the younger that you can figure that out as parents. I get the judging though. I never even thought of it from that aspect from those parents that had young kids. I’ve always just wished, “Dang it. I wish I knew more back then.”

JEN: It’s interesting to hear all three of you say that same thing because what we hear often in political or community discourse, is “Just wait until they’re 18. Don’t even worry about it. Just wait until they’re 18.” And all three of you are tearfully saying, “Oh, if we could have addressed it earlier, we absolutely would have.” But I want to push back again. You kind of all touched on it. But what actually is your role. You’re the parent of an adult who is making medical decisions, who’s making some possibly questionable fashion decisions, right as they have to explore their life, and new dating decisions. And they’re changing. They’re transforming. What’s your job? What part do you get to play in that?

CHRYSTEIL: That was hard. That was really hard for me. I was very close to my son. We had a good relationship. However, he was 18, 19, 20 as he came out as nonbinary and then into transitioning to being trans male and taking on his full identity. And I didn’t go to a single doctor appointment with him. And it was the first time in my life that I hadn’t gone to important doctor appointments with him. I was getting secondhand information, trying to wait patiently to hear what was going on at the doctor's offices, to hear what they were saying about hormones, to hear decisions he was making. And he was gentle and kind enough with a learning mom. He was also my oldest. So there’s that differentiation and separation anyway from the first time from your oldest child. And I have to give Caden full credit for being super patient about my wanting to be there to hold his hand and be sure what he was doing was safe. That was my first and foremost concern. He had, I think, Shauna was alluding to when he came out, my first reaction was sadness but for a very unique reason that he had been through so much already that this was saying to me, “And now for the rest of my life, I’m going to go through even more.” That I knew at least enough to know that it would be difficult to be an out, open member of the LGBTQ community. And so when I was first told he was considering transitioning, that he’d been watching YouTube videos and talking to people and researched so much of this, I hate to tout Mama Dragons – but because I was already a member since he had first come out, I got online on the Mama Dragons group and said, “I need help right now. ASAP. My child is talking about hormones. Will it kill him?” I didn’t have any idea if it was dangerous in any way. And then, in that case, I also knew it would be dangerous not to support him for his own mental health well being. So what I, again, needed to learn rapidly, but I also knew in the later case that I was going to have to be very gentle about any opinion I had because this was an adult child. This was a 19 and 20 year old deciding their own pace. They had been waiting and figuring this out for years beyond what I understood. And so I needed to buckle up and get ready for the ride because it was a pretty fast transition from the time he came out to the time he was on hormones was less than six months. And it was a ride for the family. It was tough to hold on tight and just have faith and trust that he had done enough research and that he was making the best, right decisions for himself now that he held the steering wheel. So it was tough. It was tough to be secondary.

JEN: Yeah. I can imagine. I can feel anxiety in my own chest when you were talking about waiting to hear about the doctor’s appointments after the fact. I could feel that.

SHAUNA: Beckett was 18, 19, 20 as well. But he invited me to all his doctor’s appointments, which I really appreciated. And I remember the first appointment that I went to. I think his doctor saw the mom in the room and thought, “Oh, she’s trying to cause problems here.” And he very gently said to me, “Beckett is an adult and he can make his own medical decisions.” And I was like, “I know. I’m fine. I’m here as a support.” And so Beckett, we were talking about this earlier today. He said we were his support system through his transition because he was living at home. We were his emotional support. We were his financial support still and all of those things. And so it feels like we were still very involved in his transition. Mike took him to Utah for his surgery because that’s where the surgeon was that could do the surgery and stayed with him down there for a week while he recovered from top surgery. We helped him access his testosterone and all of the things that he needed. And we took him to therapy. And so it still felt like we were very involved, which I really appreciated, that Beckett included us and he talked to us and he was very patient with us. When he first was talking about wanting to transition, I think Mike even more than I, was very concerned about it because it felt really fast to us. And I think this a common thing for parents of trans kids. When the child comes and tells you that they’re transgender or that they want to transition, it sometimes feels like it’s out of nowhere, totally out of left field. “What? Have you thought about this?” And so Mike sat down and had a conversation with Beckett and I said, “Did you say all the bad things like, are you sure?” And he said, “I’m sure I did. But he was very kind and as I talked to him, I realized that he had researched this. He had thought about this. This was not new information to him. It was just new information to us.” And so we trusted him that he knew. He said, “What if you regret transitioning?” And Beckett said, “I really don’t think that I will. But if I do, then I will deal with the consequences of that choice.” And so I feel like our job was to support him in the ways that he needed to be supported. As a young, new adult, trying to figure out who he was and make these big decisions for himself. And it’s been a lot of years and he has had zero regrets.

JEN: There’s something about that little line that we walk where you want them to trust you and ask for your advice, and you know they don’t have to take it. So if you push too hard or overstep your boundaries. Like you were invited to his appointments, so you got to go.

SHAUNA: Yes.

JEN: He didn’t have to invite you. And in Chrysteil’s case, Caden was feeling a little more independent and wanted to kind of venture that on her own and she didn’t love it. But she respected it. And I think you guys are all really great examples of that. So talk to us, Chrisann, about what you think your role as the mom was, or is even still.

CHRISANN: I’m still trying to figure that out. I’m trying to, like, take notes because I’m still trying to figure out exactly what my role is and when I should step in and help and when I should step back. But I feel like when she did come out, I already had this network of women, the Mama Dragons because my other son had come out as gay. And so I just leaned on these women. Like, “I just found out my oldest is trans. We don’t even know where to start. We don’t know doctors. We don’t know anything.” And these women came to my rescue and they helped me find doctors for my daughter. And I just had this network of women who wrapped their arms around our family and just really helped us in a vulnerable time. And then I felt like my job as a mom was to try to find a safe place for Khristian in our community too. Just try to create this safe place for her to be herself. And I have to say, my little rural town in Utah, all of my neighbors have been so sweet and so good with Khristian. I think because they knew.

JEN: That makes me happy.

CHRISANN: You know what, it makes me happy too. And I’m sure there are those that talk. But the people who we really care about, they have been supportive of her and asked hard questions. “What are her pronouns? How do you pronounce her name?” Because she still has the same name, she just has a different spelling. But they’ve all been so wonderful. And so, as a mom, that was just my biggest goal was just to help create this safe place for Khristian to fall. And I have a scripture that’s led me this whole time, “There’s no fear in love.” Because this is such a scary place to be in as a mom of a transgender daughter. And I can only imagine how scary it is for her. But that just is always leading me. “There’s no fear in love.” And just loving her fiercely and trying to create a safe space for her to exist because right now, for trans people, it’s very hard to have a safe place to exist.

SHAUNA: I also feel that you kind of touched on it, educating people and being an advocate. I feel like that’s one of my roles too because Beckett is out and public and he’s okay. So I can speak about his experiences with his permission and educate people so that there’s better understanding in the world of what trans people are going through.

CHRISANN: Just hearing our experiences as a family. Like I always tell my kids, “We can’t change people’s minds. All we can do is share our experiences and hope that people will change their hearts and then they’ll change their own minds,” right, by just being visible.

SHAUNA: Exactly.

CHRYSTEIL: Caden did his – one thing that he really let me lead out in, and asked me to lead out in, was some kids prefer to come out themselves. They want to just completely, “I’m not ready for everyone to know” or “I want to tell each person.” And Caden was, “No. Mom, you go right ahead and call Nana and Papa. Please.” We had a family reunion that year. “Yeah, Mom, please.” So I agree also that role of going ahead of him and preparing the way to be sure that it was going to be safe in our family, in our extended family. His dad and I are divorced and so it was also some navigating between two different groups of families. And so that was one place that I did find myself to be useful, was that advocating. Once I learned and understood, I could make sure that nothing was going to get in his way that was going to harm him more.

JEN: I love that from, like a mother heart. Because you can, you got to come out for him. “I got to have every horrible conversation.” And only a mom would appreciate that that was actually like – what would we not do. May I please have the horrible conversations so you don’t have to. But the way you articulated it sounds like that’s not a present at all, but it is.

SHAUNA: It is.

CHRISANN: It got me thinking when you were talking about Caden’s dad’s side. My husband is Samoan and in their culture, they have – before colonization – they had a third gender: fa'afafine. They live freely in the islands. And there were transgender people that were revered in the islands. So I think my husband's side of the family, they’ve just been so loving and accepting. It’s just been beautiful to see, really.

SHAUNA: I love that.

JEN: So talk to me for each of your kids, this isn’t a medical episode and we’ve done several episodes on transition. But I just want to hear what transition looked like in the world of adult people who are transitioning. What did that look like for your kid because we know everybody does it a little bit differently? And are they done? Are they done transitioning? Are they done with all that?

SHAUNA: Just today we filled out the paperwork to have his birth certificate amended.

JEN: Woo. Woo. Woo. Woo.

SHAUNA: In another state he had his legal name change happen in the state we live in. But we had to go to the state he was born in to get the birth certificate done. And so we filled out that paperwork together today. It was very exciting.

JEN: That’s awesome.

SHAUNA: For Beckett, transition started with therapy. And I think for a lot of transgender people that is the case. He had to be in therapy for a certain amount of time before he could begin any sort of medical transitioning. And in his case he had been in therapy for years, for years. And then after he got a sign off from his therapist that, yes, he had gender dysphoria, he went to a doctor to talk about starting testosterone. And so he had a few appointments there before he started. It wasn’t a super fast process for him. And then, being on testosterone was important for him having top surgery or mastectomy was important for him. That was where a lot of his gender dysphoria was. And other than that, he changed his name. He changed his pronouns. And we went through three or four names before he settled on a name that stuck. So that was a legal process of going to court to get his documents, his name and gender, changed and updated. And then just having supportive people that use his name and pronouns. That’s like an important part of his transition too.

JEN: Great. When he started, by the time he started medication, had he already socially transitioned or did he start the medication and then socially transition and come out after the fact?

SHAUNA: That’s a good question. He did socially transition first. And he started with they/them pronouns and tried to make the nonbinary, in-between space, work for him and that ended up not working for him. But he wore binders which he did for a while until he had top surgery. But he socially transitioned for probably a year before he medically started anything.

JEN: All right. 

CHRYSTEIL: That was the same case for Caden. Caden, because of his other mental health stuff, had done counseling on and off quite a bit in his late teenage/young adult life. And so he had to do the same process. Be in counseling for a certain amount of time, get a letter to be able to take to the -- it was required – to take to the doctor in order to look towards hormones. And while he was in that process, he also went with they/them pronouns first which was so horrible because I’m trying to support my child. Totally want to support, and I was terrible at it. I was so bad with they/them pronouns and I’m grateful for his grace in knowing I was just fumbling it up so bad. But he had just, he was going back to school in September and he decided, literally, he chose a name. He chose a different name than his birth name and he went by that name in half of his classes. He had classes on Monday, Wednesday, Friday and Tuesday, Thursday. And on Monday, Wednesday, Friday he held his – or vice versa – he held his given name. And the other he dressed more masculine and used his new name, Caden, so that he could feel it out. Literally feel how right it felt or not while he was doing the process of getting the letter and everything. And at that time, also, I can say that marriage equality laws had passed that year. It was 2015 and bathroom bills were a big issue then. And so being at college and trying to go as a newly transitioning trans male to the correct restrooms and different things, and he really went through a lot. That phase could be understated and it wasn’t. It was a big deal for him to try that on and try it in the frame of history that was at that time. But then he did hormones. I’ve come to learn it’s quite common for before transitioning, if you are transitioning from female to male to oftentimes they hyperfeminize beforehand trying to be comfortable in the being feminine instead of needing to transition. And my son, he had super long, luscious, gorgeous hair and was a double d. He was super, super feminine. So to try to go from that back and forth, it was a big time for him. And he did the binders for years. He had trouble with just changes of insurance and different things, he didn’t get his top surgery for a couple of, in fact, almost three years. And by the time it was ready, he was able to do that, we were all celebrating because it was really dysphoric for him to not have that top surgery done. And he had that done and before that was done I had gone to a couple conferences with him to learn about bottom surgery and transitioning and what that would entail which scared me to death as a parent because at that point he was talking about wanting to do it pretty right after his top surgery. But as the research shows, once a trans man has had top surgery done the gender dysphoria decreases dramatically and for an extended period of time. And he has had that gift of having the dysphoria gone. Sometimes it’s generally permanently gone. For others, it’s a number of years and then without bottom surgery they begin to have dysphoria again until they do that. He is considering and I believe, I don’t want to speak out of, but the last I understood, he does intend to do bottom surgery, just not in the near future. But it's important to him enough that he would like to do that.

SHAUNA: Beckett went through the same hyperfeminization period right before he came out. Just, like a last ditch effort to make it work. He was wearing makeup and doing his hair and wearing dresses and, yeah, for sure he had the same thing. And I was going to say, for Beckett, bottom surgery, that’s not something that he is interested in. And for a lot of trans men, that is – like you said, Chrysteil, once they have top surgery, their dysphoria decreases a lot. And that has been his experience. I also just want to say really quickly, that Beckette has given me permission to talk about these things, about his transition steps. And it is highly inappropriate to talk about somebody else’s surgeries or what’s in their underwear or any part of their transition that they haven’t given you express permission to discuss. That’s a personal thing. So it’s important for just the general public to know, don’t ask. Don’t ask unless you have the kind of relationship where the trust is there for that. That’s not a general conversation to have with anyone.

JEN: Yeah. I usually put that disclaimer in here. I never would ask if I didn’t already know that your kids were out.

SHAUNA: Yeah.

JEN: So, Chrisann, what about Khristian? Did Khristian go through a hyper masculine phase because I wish I would’ve seen it.

CHRISANN: Yeah. No. Khristian never, maybe trying to serve a mission as a male was that part. But she just never read male. Like I remember her coming into my classroom once and one of my students saying, because Khristian had the short hair, was wearing boy clothes, was trying to pass as a boy, and one of my students just said, “Mrs. Toulupe, is Khristian a boy or a girl?” And I said, “Well, Khristian’s a boy.” And he said, “Okay.” Because Khristian has always just read so female. Little kids would say that to me all the time because she just always has read female. So, when she came home off her mission and she decided that she did want to transition, before she started wearing makeup and was wearing more gender neutral clothes. And then I would say she probably told us maybe in November before COVID that she was going to transition. And then she had COVID to be able to transition and kind of just do, like start her hormones, start the birth certificate, the driver’s license. She had all of that time to be able to do that during that time of COVID which was really a blessing for her to be able to work on that. She was able to get some surgeries done. And I think her gender dysphoria is gone. I mean, I think it’s still there, but she says if she’s ever feeling that way she can look in the mirror and rationalize, “OK. I have passing privilege.” But I think it's still a struggle for her.

JEN: This is something that I get passionate about. So, I could ramble for like an hour and a half. And we don’t have an hour and a half. So, in a brief form, how are the political conversations and the current legislation situations, how are those things impacting your family? Ow, you guys should see because every single one of them is like, teary, and they haven’t even spoken yet.

CHRYSTEIL: I think my son – Chrisann was talking about her child having PTSD and I know that my child has PTSD from their experience of growing up and not being transitioned and all the other things they went through in lieu of transitioning early to survive, literally. But, when President Trump was elected my son was supposed to go the next spring to Kenya. And immediately – first of all there was great fear because there had been a lot of talk around transgender issues and a lot of things. And, if at all possible, things would be put to a stop. So we immediately started applying for his passport. Started doing things that he literally could maybe not be able to do in the future because those rights and privileges would be taken away. And I think that as he was coming out there were bathroom bills and so it was literally dangerous for him to use the restroom. He lives in a political arena, MY CHILD. And I don’t think that there has been a time since he came out that it hasn’t been an emotional and vital piece of something we’re aware of, probably hyper aware of. So regardless of where it’s at and what’s going on, the fact that it is so alive in the room for our children because it affects their rights and safety. Their safety as a member of the community.

SHAUNA: I’ve realized it’s a privilege to not be interested in politics. That shows real privilege. Because when people say, “Oh, I don’t like politics.” Do you like my kid? His right to exist in the world has been made political by legislators who want to take away the dignity of allowing him to show up in the world. And research has shown us that using somebody’s preferred name and their pronouns and treating them with respect is life-saving. And so to see, we live in a state where there are currently I think seven anti-trans bills being pushed through the legislature. And even though Beckett is an adult and living his own life, we are seriously considering leaving the state and moving to a state where I can feel comfortable having Beckett come home to visit without worrying about the laws that are being passed that attack him. It’s a lot. And legislative season is a really stressful time for our family, our entire family. And I heard somebody say recently in a legislative session, “These bills that people are passing aren’t just going to cause harm. They are causing harm just introducing them. Just reading them out loud. Just saying we don’t want trans people to use our bathrooms or play sports or use their names or their pronouns. That causes harm to the trans community and those who love them. Just introducing those kind of bills, even if they don’t pass, cause real harm.” And it is devastating to see it happen over and over with consistency.

JEN: You know I’m with you on that.

CHRISANN: It’s been difficult. My daughter is a trans woman of color. And just the statistics of what happens to trans women of color is something I try not to think about because it’s very scary as a mom. I can only imagine what it’s like for my daughter. And here in Utah, there was just a bill that passed that trans people cannot use the bathroom that they identify with in state owned bathrooms, which is a lot of places here in Utah. And, you know, I wrote to my legislator just pleading with him. And it just felt personal because he knows my family. I live two blocks from him. And I said, “What harm is my daughter going to do in the bathroom? Is she a threat to anyone in the bathroom? Or is she going to be put in danger having to use the men’s restroom?” My daughter is gorgeous.

JEN: Yes. She is.

CHRISANN: She looks very female. And sorry, it’s not something you really think about because you just can’t really go there as a parent. The thought of her having to use the men’s restroom, that is putting her in grave danger and it is very hard as a parent to reconcile that. I can’t imagine what it’s going to be like for her. I remember just a week ago we went to support a relative at a church that was coming home from serving a mission. And we were there for so many hours and my daughter never used the restroom because she doesn’t feel comfortable. I mean, the simple act of using the restroom, which I’m a 50-year-old woman. I do it a hundred times a day. I can’t imagine not just being able to do that and just being scared to do that.

CHRYSTEIL: My son would wait ‘til class started and then use the restroom when he was at school because it was just not worth his safety.

SHAUNA: My son would go work an 8 hour shift and not use the restroom because of the same thing.

JEN: And, statistically we know that this has medical issues. The trans community has higher rates of UTIs and bladder infections and things because of this. And I think I used to believe in a government that was fighting for us. Which makes it, kind of that disillusionment, is part of the problem.

CHRISANN: Every day I say the pledge and I say, “And justice for all.” And I say that part so loud, “And justice for all.” Everyone, not just those guys. Justice for all.

JEN: And us.

CHRISANN: Yeah.

JEN: I want to tackle a couple of myths. I bring up these myths all the time. I’m hoping that you’ll each take one so that we can get to all of them. They’re just like the random myths I feel like they come up over and over and over. The first one that I want to address is that: “Parents, this is your fault. You have encouraged this. You have taught your child to be trans. And especially because your kids didn’t transition until adults.” Do you hear this and how do you feel about this myth?

CHRISANN: I thought it for a long time. What was I doing wrong as a parent? Why is my 3-year-old putting blankets on her head and blankets around her and pretending that she’s wearing a dress? What am I doing wrong? I didn’t know. Because then Micah came next and then he was gay. So he was about as feminine as Khristian. And then it honestly took my third child to come along, that's just a heterosexual male. And I was like, “They just come wired. They just come as they are.” And it finally took me having my third child for me to realize, I’m not doing anything wrong. My kids are just who they are and my job is to love them and make a place for them in this world. But don’t get me wrong, I tried telling her that she was always going to be a boy. Heavenly Father made her a boy. Don’t think I didn’t try. I’m not a progressive parent that tried to talk my daughter into being transgender. I was a conservative parent trying to teach her that she was a boy. And she lovingly taught me that, no, she’s not. And Heavenly Father taught me that she’s just fine the way she is. And I’m just to love her.

JEN: That was so beautifully stated. The world, maybe I’m on the legislative floor too often, but the world seems quite obsessed with who is having children and who is not having children. And there’s this constant barrage of language about sterility and who will be sterile and who will be sterile and who will be sterile. Does anyone want to address the public's concern about the fertility of your child? Oh, Shauna’s on.

SHAUNA: Give it to me. So I talked about this a lot last year with legislators and the governor of Idaho because I actually have kind of a unique situation in that my second son – my oldest son is Beckett who is trans – My second son is a childhood cancer survivor. He had cancer when he was two. And he had chemotherapy and pelvic radiation and surgeries. And as a result of those medical decisions that we made for him, he has sterility. So it was really painful for me to sit through legislators saying “No parent should be able to decide medical decisions for their kid that could cause them to be sterile.” The truth is, parents every day, all over the world, make really difficult decisions for their children’s health that may or may not have long-term impacts on their kids' life in a lot of ways. And then we have a trans son and we hear a lot about trans fertility, puberty blockers, hormones. My trans son, his fertility is still completely intact. It is nobody’s business. But his medical transition has not impacted his fertility. But it has exponentially improved the quality of his life. Third point is that even if somebody’s fertility is impacted by a medical procedure or anything else, that does not change their value as a human being, as a contributor to society, as a member of a family or a church or a country. Fertility does not equal worth. So if you’re doing life-saving procedures and that impacts fertility, they’re alive and that matters. And I truly believe, if we hadn’t treated my childhood cancer son, he would not be alive today. And I truly believe if we had not supported Beckett in his transition, he would not be alive today. It’s life-saving care. And I say this until I’m blue in the face. Gender-affirming care is life-saving care. So a lot of gender transitions have nothing to do with fertility. But even if they did, that human being deserves the dignity of choosing what their life looks like. And we owe them the dignity of supporting them in those decisions.

CHRYSTEIL: Mic drop.

CHRISANN: Yes.

JEN: I was hoping you’d take that one.

SHAUNA: I feel strongly about that topic.

CHRISANN: Is anyone else just weirded out that everyone else is just so concerned about your child’s genitals? It’s like, I’m so grossed out that you’re worried about my kids genitals. I don’t think about your kid’s genitals at all.

SHAUNA: That’s creepy.

CHRISANN: I don’t. 

SHAUNA: It’s super creepy. Like, they’re worried about – they treat trans people like they’re the predators. When it’s really predatory to be so focused on our kids' genitals. Like, for real, that’s creepy.

CHRISANN: It’s so weird.

CHRYSTEIL: And in Caden’s case, he was an adult when he transitioned. And he had two aunts who had enough money to help. He wanted to transition immediately with hormones, but he was concerned about possibly freezing his eggs first because there was so little research and so unsure if he would be able to do so later. And it is so expensive. It is so, so very expensive. And it was breaking his heart because he had to choose between having children later, possibly, if his sterility was affected, versus doing an immediate transition. And he chose in the long run, to give up the idea of storing his eggs because it was more important to him as an adult, he also agreed that his mental health and his staying alive, which he couldn’t commit to himself without doing more to transition, was more important.

JEN: But before I let you guys go because you’re all so wise and experienced, you’ve been down this path. Is there anything, if you could tell the world something that you absolutely want them to understand, what would that be?

SHAUNA: Diversity is not a scary word. And trans people have so much to give the world. And if we offer them dignity and respect and support, they can live just amazing lives. I really wish I could let every person see Beckett before he transitioned and Beckett now. His life is so completely different. When he’s able to show up as his authentic, amazing self, just show up as himself and change the world. I wish people knew more trans people. But if you don’t know a trans person, I know a lot. And I can promise you. They are not the enemy. They are our children. They are our siblings. They are our parents. They are us. It’s not us versus them, we’re all us. That’s what I wish people understood.

JEN: Beautiful.

CHRISANN: I don’t know. I think one thing that I’ve been thinking a lot about lately is all of the anti-trans legislation that’s coming out and all of these people I know that affiliate with... I don’t even know how to say this without saying political parties and stuff. OK, I've got to start over. One thing I’ve been thinking about is just with all the anti-trans legislation coming out, I don’t think it’s something that the majority of people want. But I think that’s what legislatures think people want. But people aren’t just even aware. Like, if I tell my family members or people I work with about the anti-trans legislation, they’re like, “What?” It’s something that’s not even on their radar because it’s nothing they think about. And it’s not that they’re ignorant. It’s just not on their radar. So I just wish everyone would reach out to their legislature and say, “Hey, this isn’t what we want. We want you to get to the business of–whatever you believe in– trickle-up or trickle-down economics, things like that. Get back to debating that and leave our kids alone.” Leave our kids alone.

CHRYSTEIL: I think I would, if I could get to share with anyone, I would like to share with the new trans parents of trans kids, that are in that scary phase, that panic, that “how do I be a good parent in this? Is it to support the transition or to not support the transition? I want to be a good parent. I love this child. I’m not sure even which one that looks like then.” I have this amazing 30-year-old son who has gotten married in the last six months to his sweetheart at the most beautiful amazing wedding with his family from all sides, their family and friends. He is two months from completing his PhD in Psychology and going into his externship, and is the most amazing human being and the most brave human being I’ve had privilege to know and that he is such a great blessing to our family and extended family for what it has opened our world up to. That I wouldn’t change it for anything, for anything. It gets better and it gets amazing. And our children can thrive if we can support and let them.

SHAUNA: Amen.

JEN: I want to thank all of you again for showing up. This is hard stuff to talk about, especially with the onslaught of crazy that we’re seeing in the news and in the actual court systems and all those things. I want to thank you guys for showing up and for helping, I guess, the world understand the trans experience a little bit in a culture that seems determined to misunderstand. So thank you.

CHRYSTEIL: Thank you for inviting us, Jen. It’s been a privilege to be here.

CHRISANN: Good to talk about our kids.

SHAUNA: Thank you.

JEN: Thanks for joining us here In the Den. If you enjoyed this episode, please tell your friends, and take a minute to leave a positive rating or review wherever you listen. Good reviews make us more visible and help us reach more folks who could benefit from listening. And if you’d like to help Mama Dragons in our mission to support, educate, and empower the parents of LGBTQ children, please donate at mamadragons.org or click the donate link in the show notes. For more information on Mama Dragons and the podcast, you can follow us on Instagram or Facebook or visit our website at mamadragons.org.