Queer Dating

Dating these days can be daunting for anyone, but dating as a queer person comes with unique challenges. The parents in our Mama Dragons groups ask a lot of questions about how to help their queer kids with dating when the time comes. In this episode of In the Den, Jen tackles the topic of dating and turns to the experts–four young, queer, Gen Z adults. They discuss their experiences, share ideas, and give advice for how to handle the potential obstacles of dating as young queer people. 

Special Guest: Trieste 

Trieste (she/they) is bisexual and lives in Logan, UT with her cat, Stevie. She is about to graduate from USU with a bachelor’s degree in Social Work. In her free time, she loves listening to music, crocheting, and catching up on her favorite shows! 

Special Guest: Rissa 

Rissa (she/her) is a lesbian from Sandy,  Utah. Rissa loves anything artistic and creative. Right now her favorite medium is poetry, especially writing, reading, and having existential crises over it. 

Special Guest: Jake

Jake (he/him) is 21 years old, originally from San Jose, CA. He went to a year of college at Brigham Young University-Idaho. He transferred to Utah State University, and after a year of school, he is finishing up his bachelor's degree in Psychology this May. Jake enjoys music, hiking, chatting, and learning.

Special Guest: May

May (they/them) is a nonbinary bisexual from Albuquerque, New Mexico. They are currently getting their Master's degree in Political Science from Utah State University. In addition to politics, May studies art, and has had a focus on sculpture and oil paint. They love reading, spending time with friends, and avoiding hiking at all costs.

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Transcript

JEN: Hello and welcome to In The Den with Mama Dragons. I’m your host, Jen. This podcast was created to walk and talk with you through the journey of raising happy, healthy, and productive humans. Thanks for listening. We’re glad you’re here.

The parents in our groups ask a lot of questions about to help their queer kids with dating when that time comes. And to be honest, I don’t even understand how cisgender and heterosexual dating works anymore in this new world. So, I for sure don't have advice for my queer kids. My kids have been on their own in that realm. But in order to help our listeners, we brought in some experts again. Today we brought a collection of queer young adults.  The people actually out in the world doing the dating. So, I’m going to start off by introducing you to everybody.

We have Trieste, she/they pronouns. Trieste is bisexual and lives in Logan, UT with her cat, Stevie. She is about to graduate from USU with a bachelor’s degree in Social Work. In her free time, she loves listening to music, crocheting, and catching up on her favorite shows! Welcome Trieste!

TRIESTE:  Hello.

JEN:  We have Rissa. Rissa is a lesbian from Sandy, Utah. she uses she/ her pronouns. Rissa loves everything artistic and creative. Right now, her favorite medium is poetry, especially writing, reading, and having existential crises over it. Welcome!  

RISSA:  Hello.

JEN: Oh, good. We’re going to register your voices so people can connect. Next up, we have Jake. Jake is a 21-years-old originally from San Jose CA. He went to a year of college at Brigham Young University-Idaho, transferred to Utah State University after a year of school and is finishing up his bachelor's degree in Psychology this May. He enjoy music, hiking, chatting, and learning. Welcome Jake.

JAKE:  Hello.

JEN: And May who uses they/them pronouns is a nonbinary bisexual from Albuquerque New Mexico, and is currently getting their Master's degree in Political Science from Utah State University. In addition to politics, May studies art, and has had a focus on sculpture and oil paint. They love reading, spending time with friends, and avoiding hiking at all costs. Welcome May.

MAY: Avoiding at all costs, hiking.

JEN: That’s like a trending thing. Do you get a lot of pushback on that?

MAY: I hate it.

RISSA: Especially in Utah.

JAKE:  May owes me two hikes, though.

MAY: Two hikes. I have to go on them. It’s a birthday gift, so I have to do it. I’m not looking forward to it much though.

JAKE:  You’re supposed to do it his weekend and we didn’t.

MAY: It didn’t work out this weekend.

JEN: That’s an interesting present for you, the thing you love least.

MAY: Yeah.

JEN: Quality friendships right there. Alright.

RISSA: It’s a real treat.

JEN: Let’s start off with the general concept of queer dating. I’m old. I haven’t dated for a long time. What does it look like to date as an LGBTQ+ individual in 2024.

JAKE:  Um, It’s a lot of apps.

MAY: Yes.

TRIESTE:   Yeah, unfortunately.

RISSA:  In Logan, there’s not a huge queer community, except for what we can find online. So, everybody knows everybody. Chances are, if I’ve talked to someone, someone else in this friend group has also talked to that person.

TRIESTE:   That has happened multiple times, like, this is a history where one of us will go on dates with a person and then we realize three months later, “Oh my God, I’m going out with them too. That’s crazy.’ And it’s just really weird overlap. But it’s kind of fun. But if you develop a reputation or anything, everyone knows. Everyone will know.

JEN: Are you guys all in Logan right now?

JAKE:  Yeah.

MAY: All in Logan.

JEN: That’s where my oldest graduated was from Utah State.

JAKE:  Oh, no way.

JEN: And he also says it was very hard to break outside the small little group, so you weren’t all sharing the same partners. I didn’t realize you guys were in Logan. That’s awesome. So, what would like an average or an acceptable first date look like. Like what sorts of activities do you do on a first date.

MAY: A lot of the first dates that I’ve seen among, like, my queer friends, it’ll be like a coffee shop date and then you go thrifting, or you go run errands together. Something that feels very casual when the environment kind of doesn’t want it to be casual.  There’s a lot of pressure for first dates, especially in queer dating where things move really fast. So, to make it seem like it’s just an average Sunday, you’re going to grab coffee with someone you care about and then you go wonder around the two thrift stores in our area. That’s pretty standard, at least from what I’ve seen.

TRIESTE:   Yeah.

JAKE:  You just described every first date I went on this last month.

JEN: Does it kind of take the pressure off a little bit, if you go to coffee and then they want to run an errand. But you don’t like them, it’s easy to slip out.

RISSA:  Yes.

JAKE:  Not really.

RISSA:  Usually, I like hanging out with the person, even in I don’t see them in the romantic sense. Like, I like meeting new queer people. So, for me, it’s really nice to have an activity like thrifting where I don’t have to be pressured into talking to them the whole time. We can just find cool things at the thrift store. I’ve also gone to the antique store down the street. Little shops around Main Street are my favorite.

JEN: So, Jake, you said, yeah. For you it is kind of an escape strategy?

JAKE:  No. I was thinking of it the other way around. I don’t find it that easy to slip out of dates doing casual stuff because it’s so casual there’s not that pressure there to be like, “Oh, it’s a date.” But the vibes are always good but sometimes I get a little bit bored and I do want to find a way to slip out but we drive together to different errands. It’s still hard to slip out there.

TRIESTE:   There’s definitely some awkward conversations where it’s like, “Do you want to come with me to do this?” And then the other person’s like, “Yeah. That would be fun.” Or there’s like the, “I actually have some homework I have to do.” And you’re like, “Okay, great, let me take you home.” It very much, I feels like the dates I’ve been on, you have multiple things planned, but you always check with the person before doing something else or spending more time together. You are always, or at least I feel this is how I’ve been on dates and people I’ve dated. But they’re like, “Do you want to go do this with me?” And the next time they’ll be like, ‘I was thinking we could do this. But, like, also you don’t have to if you don’t want to.” Or maybe that’s just me being overly anxious and wanting people I’m hanging out with to have fun. But that’s what I’ve experience there.

JEN: When you get really old and you’ve been married for 30 years. You also run errands on dates. So, this is good practice for you guys. We used to thrift, now we go to Costco. It’s all good.

MAY: No. I think that’s a great date idea. I’m going to take my partner to Costco. I think that would be fun.

JAKE:  Queer dates, I’ve found, tend to last about six hours on average.

JEN: Six hours?

MAY: Yeah. They tend to be a little longer.

JAKE:  Not really. They’re just, they tend to be long.

RISSA:  Yes.

JEN: OK. I wouldn’t have known that. Six hours.

JAKE:  Six hours is an exaggeration for sure.

MAY: I don’t think it’s an exaggeration for me.

TRIESTE:  I really don’t think so. It can be that long.

MAY: My first date with my current partner was six hours.

JAKE:  Okay. Maybe just more [inaudible] first dates tend to be six hours long.

JEN: Okay. Alright.

RISSA:  A good sign is if you don’t want to stop hanging out with them. You just keep hanging out and it turns into six hours eventually.

JEN: So, I’m going to assume that if the queer population nationwide is hovering around 10% and that’s lower in Logan. I think we would all probably agree to that. But nationwide, the queer population right around 10%. And obviously not all those people are going to date each other, right? Lesbians aren’t dating the trans men or whatever. So, the dating pools a little bit limited, right? You have to find somebody who’s queer and also into dating who you are. So, less and less and less and less. Does this sound realistic? Am I out in the bushes on that?

JAKE:  No that’s it.

MAY: You’re pretty spot on.

TRIESTE:   You’re spot on with that.

JEN: So, does this smaller pool kind of impact your expectations or standards. Are you like, “Eh, you’re not that great, but there’s nobody else.” Or are you, “You’re not that great so I’m not going to date at all.” So how does that impact your expectations?

JAKE:  I don’t want to bash on some of the guys that I’ve gone out with. But there are for sure some people that I kind of just settled for. There’s really no one for me to date in Logan, Utah. But my standards, they still go up and up and up because I know what I’m looking for more and more every day. So, I’m still learning about what I want and who I want and figuring that out. I feel like my standards are getting raised, actually. I don't know.

JEN: OK. Anyone else?

MAY: I took a break from dating for about a year. I had just gotten out of a relationship that I was devastated by. And then I looked for other queer people who kind of would like fit that same niche that I was looking for and who would be attracted to me and who I would also want to date. And I just couldn’t find anyone. And I was just repeatedly disappointed. And I feel like I have a slightly different experience because I also date just like a lot of men. So, I have a larger audience. I feel like audience is the wrong word.

JEN: Are they bothered with the fact that they’re nonbinary? Are straight men bothered by that?

MAY: That’s partially why I stopped dating is because the straight men that I was dating just kind of didn’t acknowledge it. I got a lot of comments like, “You’re not like any of the other girls that I’ve ever dated.” And I’m not a girl, that’s probably why. I don’t identify like that. It’s pretty clear that I’m not like other girls you’ve dated. So, a lot of straight men, when you’re bisexual and especially nonbinary, they just like to ignore that part of your identity.

TRIESTE:   It just goes right over their head.

MAY: Yeah. They just don’t have to acknowledge it. So, they don’t. So, I took a break from dating. It just wasn’t working for me. And I got lucky with my current partner. They’re amazing. Dating with such a small pool is difficult.

JEN: That makes sense. Anybody else have thoughts about that?

TRIESTE:   I think it’s hard because I feel like a lot of people do have certain things that they are attracted to or are not attracted to. And when you are on apps, almost exclusively, it’s really easy to be super, super surface level and be like, “I’m not attracted to them. I’ll just swipe left.” Or that instant, if you’re not instantly attracted to them or they’re not exactly what you have in your brain – it’s hard, especially when it’s like – Oh geez, I don’t know how to say this. Some people will date anyone and some people have a really specific type. And so it’s hard to navigate that.

JEN: In the real world of dating, it’s not quite so immediate, like you can hang out in a little group and kind of think, ‘Well, he wasn’t the hottest guy I’ve ever seen. But he really is a great conversationalist after all.” Where maybe you already swiped left on the apps. That makes sense to me.

RISSA:  Before I realized I was a lesbian, I thought that I was pansexual. And that label fit me for a while. So, I’m not upset that I identified differently back then. But when I was dating men, it was really easy for me to not think about the implications that would cause that man – like I wasn’t thinking so much about his feelings I guess. Which is probably very problematic of me. But now that there is a smaller dating pool for me, I really have to think about my reputation and okay is this action going to effect my future relationships down the road with new people that I will meet because everybody knows everything.

JEN: That makes sense. OK. So, a lot of our listeners are parents or grandparents or in some sort of a parenting role. Talk to me about safety because the idea, when my kids first started dating with apps and they would be like, “I’m going to go meet someone.” I’d be like, Aw! Panic!!!. Do you feel safe? And what do you recommend that people do, like maybe a kids 15 and wants to start dating that parents can do to increase safety.

TRIESTE:   I never dated while I was at home, really.

JEN:  What do you do to make sure your safe when you go on dates?

TRIESTE:   I will typically let my friends know that I am going on a date, like, “Hey, I should be back by this time, if I don’t check in with you, reach out to me or check my location or something.” So there’s like accountability on my end and they’re also aware that I’m somewhere and they can check on me if they need to. That’s typically what’s worked.

RISSA:  That’s also where thrift stores and coffee shops come into play. Like, it’s a very public location. There are witnesses so I know I’m not going to be kidnapped because there are witnesses.

JEN: And if you’re going on a six hour date, you’re starting when the sun’s still up?

JAKE:  Yes.

RISSA:  Yes, for sure.

TRIESTE:   Yeah.

JEN: No thrift stores are open at 1:00 a.m. Um, what else. What else do you guys do for safety.

MAY: I like having my location shared with my friends. I’ll always show them a picture of who I’m going on a date with before it happens. And I make sure they know where I am and where I’m going to be. And if I don’t respond for a bit, they at least have, in this age of technology, they can just pull up my Find my Friends or my Snapchat and just see exactly where I am. So, if I’ve been gone for a suspicious amount of time, they know where I am and they know that I’m safe. Or at least they know how to find me if I’m not.

JEN: So, find a friend, because nobody wants their mom following them around on their dates on their phone, right?

MAY: Right.

JEN: That makes perfect sense. Alright. One thing that I have admired about queer culture since kind of being on the periphery a little bit. I’ve learned way more about consent than I ever learned outside the queer culture. Lots of conversation. Lots of emphasis on consent. You guys mentioned consent, like “Now do you want to do this? Now do you want to do that?” in just a date sort of way. But how does it really play out when you’re  dating? Is there a lot of expectations? Is consent honored in the way that you guys all talk about it?

RISSA:  My favorite thing about queer dating is that we are all so in tune to each other’s emotions and needs. We know what it feels like to not have our identities be listened to. Personally, I take it very seriously to make sure the other person feels comfortable in my space and that I feel comfortable in their space.

JEN: Now, you date women, right?

RISSA:  Yeah.

JEN: So, I want to flip to Jake really fast. Is it the same with men dating men. Are you guys equally . . .

JAKE:  It’s kind of different. I remember when I first started dating, I was dating this one guy. And he brought it up later eventually and he’s like, “I really appreciate how you ask before we do anything.” And I was like, “I thought that was what we were supposed to be doing.”

TRIESTE:   Pretty standard, right?

JAKE:  I thought that’s what happened. And then he started doing it more and more and more. And then in other experiences, I don’t find it that often. Things just kind of tend to progress to that point. And there always is the understanding that you can always say no. But, from my experiences, a lot of it has just been more of a natural happenings of things.

JEN: If you date both, is there a difference in the world of consent when you’re dating women or when you’re dating men, nonbinary people, or trans people?

TRIESTE:   Yeah. Yep. Uh-huh?

MAY: Huge, dramatic, dramatic differences.

JEN: alright. Let’s hear about it.

TRIESTE:  I was primarily focused on dating women and then I shifted my focus to men for a bit at the beginning of last year. And it was really interesting because I’d had a couple more sexual intimate relationships with women or nonbinary people previous to trying out men – is how I’ll phrase it. And it was really interesting. Because I felt immediately just more comfortable when I was with a “not man” – we’ll use that umbrella.

RISSA:  Yes.

TRIESTE:   Just because I felt like there was more checking in. There was more intuitive – it wasn’t just about them, it was about both of us. And with men I usually feel like it’s – obviously there is consent there and I’ve never had an unsafe experience with dating a man that way – But it definitely feel like it tends to be a little bit more about them and what they want. They’ll ask for things and I don’t feel as comfortable asking for things on that same level.

RISSA:  Exactly.

TRIESTE:   So, it’s like dating women or nonbinary people it tends to put you on more of an equal playing field. Whereas with dating men it tends to feel like I’m a secondary, is how I’ve experienced it.

JEN: OK.

MAY: I 100% agree with that, Trieste. Sometimes when I’ve been with men it’s like it’s something that’s happening to me and not something that I’m actively participating in. They’re in control of the relationship. They’re in control of everything. And while there is, I always can say no, sometimes it feels like there’s that pressure of this is what this straight man wants from me and so I’m going to, like, give that to him. But when I’m dating non-men, when I’m dating women or other nonbinary people, it’s just such like a more freeing and open experience because they understand the issues that you have, maybe, with your body, with your sexuality, with how others perceive you. And they check in on those things. They ask if the way they referred to you was the right thing to do or if you like being intimate in certain ways or if you like just being physically close or if you prefer distance. Being with other women or nonbinary people, it’s like, I think, Rissa was saying, it’s an equal playing field. It might’ve been Trieste. You are  with them and experiencing it with them instead of it’s something that’s happening to you.

JEN: Oh, that’s so disappointing. I figured that your generation had figured that out. I thought you guys had solved that problem.

MAY: Wouldn’t that be great.

TRIESTE:   You would think so. I feel like it’s just hard because you have to check in with people. That’s something that I use as a filter for dating. If you don’t agree with how I see this or how I view that, if you don’t meet that expectation, I’m just not going to give you the time of day, to be honest. Like, if your going to misgender one of my friends, I’m not going to keep talking to you. I’m just not. And so that is also really helpful for like filtering out people that I don’t want in my life and I don’t want to date.

RISSA:  I heard this quote once. It was “People show you who they are immediately, you just have to listen.” And that is very telling of just who I’ve interacted with, especially in Logan, Utah.

JEN: That’s why you guys are going thrifting because everything else is closed on Sunday afternoon.

JAKE:  Yeah.

TRIESTE:   Yeah. Exactly.

MAY: Yes.

JEN: I just figured it out. I think most of us, everybody here came from all over the place before Logan. But I think most of us would agree that we’re largely surrounded in life by cis, heteronormative spaces. TV, Movies, school. Right.

RISSA:  For sure.

JEN: But gender norms are pretty clear in this cis-het world. And you guys already touched on that, right. When it comes to dating there’s some pretty well-defined expectations. And you can branch out of them or break out of them. But you do it knowing that you’re breaking the norm, right? In the queer space of dating, how on earth do you figure out the rules so you even know if you want to follow those rules or break those rules? Are there just not any rules?

RISSA:  That’s the million-dollar question.

JAKE: Yeah.

TRIESTE: If we knew we would tell you.

JAKE:  It’s confusing every time.

RISSA:  Crickets.

JAKE:  Whenever I go to pay for something on a date, and the other guy’s like, ‘No. I got it.” or like whatever. But then we will switch off. It’s kind of there’s no rules and it takes a long time for people to realize that. I’ve been dating men for about three years now. So, I got a little bit of the time under my belt. But when I was like 18 dating guys, nobody knew what was going on. And I think that’s just a thing of young people to just not know what’s going on. But it was always so confusing how to figure that out. But, when it comes down to it, there are no rules. You just kind of exist together and do things and vibe.

RISSA:  Yeah. I’ve noticed the same thing with straight dating that I was doing before, there was a script. There was something to follow. And I never was truly satisfied with that script. Now I know that it’s because I don’t like men. But it’s so freeing to be able to make my own rules. I get to choose if I want a person who will pay for me or will let me pay for them or we can switch off. I get to choose what I want from a partner.

MAY: It almost feels like you just are your most true self when you’re with someone in a queer relationship because there’s no expectation of gender roles and you don’t know who’s supposed to do what or what you’re supposed to be doing. There’s no script. It’s just, I naturally feel like I should be – I like paying for stuff for people. I like doing that. I like buying someone coffee. I like bringing them flowers. And in straight or more straight-appearing relationships that I’ve been in, that’s been kind of looked down upon. While, with more queer relationships, it’s almost encouraged to break typical gender norms and to just be yourself as much as possible.

RISSA:  Exactly.

JEN: Any thoughts on this one, Trieste before I move on?

TRIESTE:   I feel like I have, I know I have, I’ve dated the least amount of the people in this group. And so I feel like I am still having a hard time breaking out of gender roles when I’m dating. I feel like I have to plan dates and I feel like I have it be performative in a way. and it’s really hard for me to step back from that and be like, “Okay. How do I actually date this person without taking on paying for a date or planning out a date and expecting them to do the same.”

JEN: Like if you go out with a girl, you find yourself falling into the more masculine gender norms and if you’re dating a guy the opposite.

TRIESTE:   Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And it’s really hard because sometimes you do want to be taken care of by a pretty girl. But I don’t come off as hyper-feminine. I don’t think. So, a lot of people will just expect me to take on that masculine role which is really interesting just because I’m not hyper-feminine and I don’t wear a ton of makeup or dress really fancy or – I don’t know what I’m saying. But you understand that traditional femininity and everything.

JEN: Yeah.

TRIESTE: I never really fit into that box. And so I don’t know how to navigate that in relationships quite yet. And I am figuring it out every single time. And it’s kind of crazy. And realizing how to drop what you know dating to be and trying it differently is really hard and it takes a long time. But I have a lot of friends who show me how fun it is and kind of examples of how to do that. So, I’m slowly getting there.

JEN: You guys who are listening can’t see. They’re doing the young people heart. They re-did it with their fingers. They’re hearting each other the young people way. I’m doing the wrong fingers.

RISSA:  You figure it out.

MAY: The pointer finger and the middle finger

JAKE:  The pointer finger.

TRIESTE:   The pointer finger’s on top making the curve and then the middle finger just kind of sticks down and you put them together.

RISSA:  Middle finger down.

JEN: I have an 18-year-old. This would make them so mad at me. They would be so embarrassed of me right now. In addition to this, I kind of like from a parent prospective being like, “Oh, they’re figuring it out.” It’s going to be a little bit weird. If parents can just step back and let you figure it out. I know there’s sometimes some micromanag-y feelings where you’re like, “Well you said that you like to be the one who paid.” Um, “Like that might be true, but I’m figuring it out, Mom and Dad, and I like that.” So other than the gender roles, are there other hurdles that you guys have had to tackle from growing up in a hetero-cis-normative society. Like any internal messaging or even cultures ideas you’ve had to tackle?

TRIESTE:  Um, yeah. To put it simply, yes to all of that.

JEN: Okay. That wasn’t supposed to be a yes or no question, but I appreciate that it kind of is.

TRIESTE:   I think we all, just because being queer is essentially stepping outside of a box, whatever box it is, you are stepping outside of it. You are actively choosing not to follow societies rules for what they’ve said is okay. You’re naturally just going to run into some push  back and hard things and people not agreeing with how you’re living.

JEN: What hurdles do you run into in queer dating that people might not be aware of if they’ve just done the traditional cis-het thing?

JAKE:  One thing that I’ve noticed, especially dating in Utah as opposed from dating in California, when I date in Utah, there’s a lot of people that come from a similar background. And that leads to a lot of internalized homophobia and a lot of kind of toxic masculinity there. And a lot of guys that I’ve dated up here try to appear more masculine or more straight passing than – appear to be what they aren’t. And they’re kind of doing that. And so I’ve kind of had to deal with that myself as well with the same or similar background. But there’s a lot of stress there with your masculinity and how you’re supposed to break out of that box. And a lot of people are stuck in this box. And the thing about being queer that I love is there are no boxes and that we can present whatever way we like. And that’s an issue I’ve seen.

TRIESTE:   Yeah. I doesn’t quite click with some people. I feel like a lot of people, when they have that internalized homophobia which you run into a lot here in Utah, it’s like because they can’t check the straight box, they want to check the femininity box or the masculine box and they want to try to fit in in another way so that at least that part of them is accepted and so they don’t have to worry about how people will react to their sexuality because they are straight-passing or they’re not outwardly queer. I don't know, that’s something that I’ve run into as well.

JAKE:  But that’s not the issue everywhere.

TRIESTE:   No, it’s not.

JAKE:  Because I’ve dated in California quite a bit too. And so there are differences depending on where you live.

JEN: So, speaking of internalized homophobia do you have rules about dating people who are in the closets?

RISSA:  I wouldn’t say rules, just preferences. I have dated people in the closet and out of the closet. And I prefer to date someone who will treat me right and I don’t really have any other standards. If they don’t want to tell their parents or their school that they are dating me, that’s fine. I just want someone who can treat me how I deserve to be treated.

JAKE:  It’s also just like a different stage of life. And it kind of sets me back a few years. And I kind of don’t want to experience those years again.

TRIESTE:   Yeah. Coming out is so traumatic. Even if it goes really well with your family and your friends and everything, it can be hard to come out to people.

JAKE:  Traumatic is a strong word, though.

TRIESTE:   Little T traumatic, not like Big T traumatic. Like it’s an emotional thing and it’s going to be a defining moment for a lot of people. We’ll say that. It’s a defining moment. Coming out is a really defining moment for, I would say, a lot of gay people and a lot of queer people. And it can be very emotionally distressing. It was for me. It was really hard for me to navigate that with my family and my friends.

MAY: I agree with you, Trieste. My first queer relationship, I was a freshman in high school and we were both closeted. And it was really amazing being with them. We had a great relationship. But because we were both in the closet, when our parents found out that we were together, it was this mutually traumatic thing that really did not go well and left us with both a lot of trauma and a lot of healing that we had to do from that. And I don’t think I would ever want to put someone else in that situation where I know they love me and I know they care about me and want to be with me, but the fear that if their parents ever did find out that they were with me that there would be a huge backlash and their life would change and things could fall apart for them. I wouldn’t want to be the reason someone has to go through what I had to go through when I was younger.

TRIESTE:   So what I was trying to get to earlier was that I had the thought it would be really hard for me to go back to a place like that with a partner. Because I would take on, like, a mentorship role. And I don’t want to be a mentor to my partner, I want to be a partner to my partner. So, if they can do that and still be in the closet, that’s totally fine and, like, whatever. But, I don’t want to have to hold your hand through that because it would bring me back to a lot of really dark places that I’ve been. It would bring up a lot of things that I’ve worked through and I try not to give emotional space to anymore. If that makes sense.

JEN: There’s probably nuance, right? If their living in Logan and their parents live in DC and they’re out in Logan but they haven’t told their parents. That’s going to be different than if you’re hanging out at their parents every Sunday and you have to pretend to be their best friend.

JAKE:  Yeah.

JEN: Okay. So you guys might not be able to answer this. I’m sure you have friends in these categories and you can speak to it a little bit. But we do have a lot of parents of trans kids who are listening, so I don’t want to skip the question altogether. What’s the rule or the expectation for your generation about talking about it. Like sharing that information, “I am transgender.” Obviously, it’s not shameful. But if you’re on an app, maybe it’s dangerous to share early on. What are the rules about that?

MAY: One big thing that I try to do, because I am pretty close with a lot of trans people, is just to avoid revealing, one, that they’re trans at all. I think that’s the most important thing because their goal is to just be who they are in their truest sense. And if you, like, accidentally mess up pronouns or you say a name that they don’t use anymore, it can really damage how they feel in that moment and how comfortable they feel with the people they’re meeting or with you as their friend. That can be really hurtful. So just kind of avoiding bringing up the topic that they’re trans and just accepting them for who they are now. And if they’re around people who they aren’t out with yet, I personally, I just try to avoid talking about anything. I won’t use their dead name if that’s what the people around them are using. I won’t use incorrect pronouns even if that’s what the people around them are using. I’ll just do my best to avoid those topics at all so I don’t accidentally out them to other people or even make them feel worse about themselves.

JEN: So your friends that you’re talking about, when they’re dating, how soon in dating, do they just never tell the people? At some point, there’s going to be some sort of conversation and intimacy about who has which bits and piece, right? Is that when you tell?

MAY: Typically, it’s brought up pretty soon in romantic relationships I’d say. The trans people that I’ve dated, it’s been like the second date if I didn’t know by then like on a dating app, if it didn’t say. I’ll typically know by like the second or third date. And I’ve found that’s pretty typical with my other trans friends, they’ll tell people around that time, after they know they’re comfortable with you, after they know roughly who you are as a person and they fell comfortable, then they’ll share.

JEN:  Like they’re not worried you’re going to physically assault them when they tell you, sort of level.

MAY: Once they start to feel safe around you. That’s when it’s revealed.

JAKE:  But, like, on dating apps, I’ve noticed that a lot of trans men that I have matched with, they’ll have it in their bio already, so it’s just already an understanding. It’s not something that needs to be talked about. It’s just there, so I already know so, “Okay. That’s what it is. Just a trans man.”

JEN: It feels to me from a place of ignorance like kind of catch 22. Like, if you write it in the apps, there’s some risk of violence and danger, especially if you’re in a very limited conservative-type space. And then, simultaneously, you don’t want to go on 20 dates with someone and totally think that they’re into you and then discover that they’re transphobic after the fact and your heart gets broken. There’s got to be this, I don't know. Is it a struggle? Do people talk about that balance?

MAY: Yeah. It’s kind of a gamble. You choose if you want to disclose at the beginning and risk the violence. Or you choose not to disclose and then risk the rejection. And you just have to find out which is more important to you. Which is the bigger fear, the rejection after, like, 20 dates like you were saying, or the rejection immediately upfront right away. So, it’s just whichever one you’re willing to deal with.

JEN: Whichever one feels less scary, I guess?

MAY: Less scary to you, yeah.

JEN: Do you guys have thought about mixed orientation dating? Like, Jake, you’re a gay man, are you comfortable dating?

TRIESTE:   Like a bisexual man or like a trans?

JEN: Like I was thinking more, like would you date someone who’s ace?

JAKE:  That’s a lot to think about.

JEN: Or would you date a woman because she was super into you, like a straight woman?

JAKE:  Me and Rissa are fake boyfriend and girlfriend.

RISSA:  We are. We are each other’s beards.

JAKE:  But it’s all just for fun and it’s a joke and we just hang out and chit-chat. That’s all that it is.

RISSA:  We actually really don’t like kissing each other.

JAKE:  Oh, yeah. We actually both don’t really like doing that.

JEN: Mutually repulsive, okay?

JAKE:  I wouldn’t realistically date a woman. I just, it’s not something I’m into. Sorry all my friends.

TRIESTE:   We’re heartbroken.

RISSA:  We still love you.

MAY: I’m still on the table that means.

JAKE:  No, I know. May is maybe,

TRIESTE:   May’s on the table.

JAKE:  But, no.

JEN: It sounds like dating trans people’s not an issue for any of you?

JAKE:  It’s not.

MAY: Not really.

TRIESTE:   No.

RISSA: Not at all.

JEN: So, what about ace? Could you date someone knowing that the physically attraction, the sexual attraction is probably just never going to be there for them?

JAKE:  I think to me, sex is something that goes with dating. I don't know. But only for me. So it’s not something I’ve encountered and not something I’ve had to really think about too heavily. But it’s not something I’ve pursued.

JEN: Anyone else, mixed orientation dating?

MAY: I kind of agree with that because I identified as asexual for like years of my life, for a very long period. And I was in a lot – not a lot – I was in a couple of really healthy relationships that did go really well. And I do appreciate everything they did for me during that time. So, I’m not closed off to dating someone who’s like that. I just want them to show their affection in maybe different ways. If they can’t show it through intimacy, then just being close with me and being there for me emotionally, doing everything else that they feel capable of doing to make our relationship close and make it feel special even if sex and intimacy isn’t something that they’re looking for or want at all.

TRIESTE:   Yeah. I would agree. As long as I feel like we aren’t just friends and like hang out and co-habitate and there’s like a distinction there where I still feel like they value me as a partner and, like, they show that in other ways. It would depend on the person, obviously, but I feel like I would be open to that, definitely.

JEN: What about polyamory? Is it like way more common in the queer world than you expected? Is it something that you’re interested in or open to? Or does that seem like about the same percentages in the queer world as the cis/het world?

TRIESTE:   Jake has a lot of thoughts.

JEN: Go, Jake.

TRIESTE:   If you want to share. You also don’t have to.

RISSA: He has a speech to spill

TRIESTE:   I just know that you’ve had experience.

JAKE:  Dude, me personally, I don’t consider myself polyamorous. But I have encountered a lot of people who are. This week I did have someone give me the option to join their polyamorous relationship, but I declined. But I don’t know if actually want to talk about that.

JEN: No pressure. Zero pressure.

JAKE:  But polyamory, I have noticed, is a big thing in the queer community. It’s a lot of people that I’ve talked to on dating apps or I’ve met are – they’re not closed off to the idea and they already start with the notion like open relationship are kind of established as a – I don’t know what I’m saying.

TRIESTE:   It’s more common then you would think, I’d say.

JAKE:  You encounter it pretty often.

JEN: Do you think it’s because the queer community’s already  gotten rid of the boxes and expectations and everybody can just do what actually appeals to them?

RISSA:  Yeah. I think so.

MAY: That’s a big, big part of it. When you start removing some labels and boxes that you have to fit into, you start wondering like, “Can I just remove all of the boxes?” And that happens a lot. You see it a lot in dating apps especially. As a very femme presenting person, it is something that you encounter a lot within the queer community.

RISSA:  I’ve noticed, I grew up in the Mormon church. And for my relationships and dating when I was still a part of that church, it was very cis/hetero. You will marry a man in the temple and the rest of your life is set after that. And so now that I have left that church, my options have just been blown wide open. I have now started to consider polyamory. I just feel like I have a lot of love in my body and why should I confine myself to loving just one person for the rest of my life. But it’s very freeing to not have to just marry one man in the temple and not think about it for the rest of my life. I like having options.

JEN: The thing that’s been interesting to me in my learning process is, I think I had these ideas of polyamory connecting with old-fashioned polygamy. But really, every polyamorous friend I have, or person that I’ve talked to about it, nobody does it the same. Everybody, every relationship, is set up so completely different. And there is something about that that feels like we’re making up the rules. And if it doesn’t work for you, we’re going to negotiate it. There’s something really individualized about it that I think is beautiful that we sort of skip that stuff in the cis/het world. We just kind of do what they tell us to and don’t really think about it too much. So I think it’s cool. You had something, Trieste, to say about poly-dating.

TRIESTE:   Oh, I was just going to say that I, especially on dating apps – I haven’t ever dated anyone who’s been polyamorous or had someone propose that to me. But I have run into it on dating apps. You’ll see profiles where you’re like, “Oh, pretty girl. Let me just swipe on her pictures.” And then suddenly there’s like a man. And then you look at the bio and it’s like, “Couple looking for a third.” Or “I’m married to a man but he’s open to me having a girlfriend.” So that’s an option. That’s why they’re on a dating app. So that’s been really interesting to navigate. I have gotten into a couple of funny conversations just over dating apps and then being, “So, like, I actually have a husband and three children. Would you still want to go on a date?” And I’m like, “I don’t know. Let me think about that.” And that’s been kind of an interesting predicament. But you’d be surprised. I’m 24, and so sometimes there’s people on there who are, I go upwards of like 30. I don’t really care about age. But I’ll go upwards of 30 on the dating apps and people that age do have kids sometimes, and they do have partners and ex’s and there’s a lot of things that come with that. And you kind of have to be like, “Am I okay with this? And do I want this? Is this a relationship that I want for myself?”

RISSA:  Relationships are always messy. You’ve got to decide what kind of messy you vibe with.

TRIESTE:   Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

JAKE:  Really, as long as everyone’s riding the same wave and everyone’s just vibing and treating each other well and everyone’s happy. That’s kind of what everyone’s goal is, is just to be happy.

TRIESTE:   Yeah. Vibe and yeah.

JEN: So you guys have all mentioned apps in passing. I want to hear from you guys what are the best apps and what apps should everyone stay away from? I’ve never heard of any of these. So, you can just make up words and I wouldn’t know. But try to help our audience out.

MAY: I hate Tinder with a burning passion. And, yet, when I’m single, it’s the first app that I go to, purely because everyone knows about it and everyone’s on it. And if you’re just trying to find people and broaden the community that you can date, you kind of just go to whatever platform seems the biggest and whatever works. And it ends up being Tinder 90% of the time.

RISSA:  Unfortunately.

JEN: Is Tinder the biggest?

TRIESTE:   Yeah. I’d say it’s more popular for sure.

JAKE:  For men who date men, I’ve got an app that you should probably avoid.

JEN: Wait. I think I know this one. It’s starts with a ‘G’.

JAKE:  Yeah.

JEN: Okay.

JAKE:  Yeah. It’s Grinder.

JEN: OK. So why are we avoiding Grinder? Break it down for us.

JAKE:  It’s an app that gets you any person in your proximity that’s on that app. And so anybody has access to you. And there’s no filter on what you can say or what pictures you can send or just anything. And so you get a lot of really discouraging and hateful and nasty and unprovoked messages and pictures.

JEN: Isn’t everybody on there a gay man?

JAKE:  No. Not everybody.

JEN: Oh, Okay.

JAKE:  You’ll find bisexual men. That’s where you find a lot of men who are closeted and on the down-low. And it’s a very, from what I’ve seen, it’s been very toxic. And it’s a lot of self-loathing that comes from that app. It has a lot of pressure that gets built up on it and everyone on that app is really only there to participate in hook-up culture. So, if you’re looking for a relationship, I think maybe go to a Barnes and Noble. I don't know.

JEN: Pick a different app, okay. What else? Isn’t there one called Cupid?

JAKE:  That’s not something that Gen Z really uses.

MAY: I think that’s late Millennial. I don’t think anyone I know has every used OK Cupid. You see a couple of Bumble. You see a couple of Hinge.

RISSA:  Hinge is pretty good.

MAY: But if you have a Hinge or a Bumble, you also have a Tinder that you’re using.

RISSA:  For sure.

MAY: You’re hoping for something on the other one. If you’re on dating apps, you’re also on Tinder.

JAKE:  You have more than two apps at a time.

TRIESTE:   There’s like the gateway app. And then you get into Bumble and Hinge.

JEN: So if everyone’s on Tinder, why do you go to the other ones?

MAY: You’re hoping there’s like one person.

TRIESTE:   They have different vibes.

JAKE:  One thing about Grinder is that it’s pretty successful.

JEN: If that’s what you’re going for.

JAKE:  If that’s what you’re going for, you can get it. But it’s dangerous and scary. I’ve had people well into their 60s try to message me and that’s a big age gap considering I’m only 21. And it’s just kind of dangerous if you don’t know what you’re doing.

JEN: Okay. So I seriously thought you guys were going to name 30 apps. Like this is the best one for lesbians. And this is the best, No. It’s just Tinder plus a few others?

TRIESTE:   I mean, there might be in bigger cities. There might be other apps that are popular in that city. But in Logan, everyone just has everything just because of your just trying to find someone. You’re trying so hard.

JEN: Do you do long distance-y things. Like, I’m open to anybody, I don’t even care if you live in Albuquerque still.

RISSA:  Absolutely not.

JAKE:  I have had some long-distance things. I’ve had things that were 12 hours away. And I’ve had things that were two hours away. And then I’ve also had things that were five minutes away. But I dated a guy, we met in California, and then I moved to Utah for school. And then we dated for about a year long distance. So, I’ve also noticed that’s a thing pretty common with other gay men. I have also seen it in other queer identities. But people aren’t that closed off to distance because a lot of people – like going back to the question on standards, it’s kind of hard to find the exact person you’re looking for in such a small dating pool in such a small town. So I’m not limiting myself to this one area. If I can find someone that’s going to be compatible to me and treat me well, then I would want to explore it.

JEN: But Rissa, not you?

RISSA:  I’ve had the opposite. My personality is very much ADHD. I am very bad at texting and remember to communicate with people over my phone. So I need a relationship to be in person. So I always look for closest first.

JAKE:  Yeah. I wouldn’t do 12 hours again. But . . .

JEN: Okay. Trieste or May, you got any thoughts on this one?

TRIESTE:   I generally just won’t put a lot of effort into it if I don’t already know you and we’re already long-distance. So that’s kind of the thing that I’m not, this is not going to actually work. ‘Cause I’m also like Rissa, where it’s like, if you’re out of sight, if I’m not interacting with you on a pretty consistent basis, I will, unfortunately, forget that you exist. And it’s really hard to date someone when you have never met them in person. At least for me in and you don’t know how their mannerisms are or what they actually sound like. Things like that, for me, have just been kind of hurdles that I have decided that I really don’t like long distance just for when I don’t already know them.

JAKE:  That is true, because when I did have that long-distance relationship, we met when we were living in the same place. So we knew each other before we did long-distance. To me, I think my limit is about 2 hours away driving because then we can still see each other on weekends and stuff. But, like, also, I don’t need a man there every single day.

JEN: Like a little bigger space bubble?

JAKE:  Mm-hmm.

JEN: All right. I’m hoping, before we go, that you’ll each take just like one second and throw out your best piece of dating advice or tip before I let you guys go.

MAY: I think my biggest piece of advice that I would give is to just be yourself from the very, very beginning. The dating community for queer people is a whole lot smaller. If you can just try to focus on who you are and showing that to other people, then, even if you haven’t met the right person, if they’re talking about you to their friends, and they’re like, “This is all the things that they were doing. They did this and I didn’t necessarily like.” Maybe their queer friends that you haven’t met yet, do like that and it will work for them. That’s how I met my current partner and it’s going really well. So just be yourself as much as you possibly can from the very, very beginning.

JEN: That’s good for straight people too.

JAKE:  I really agree with what May was saying about authenticity because being queer is just so open. And so I’ve noticed that I have tried to hide some things about myself, like, I think it’s natural just to do that because I’m also just an anxious person.

JEN: But that whole idea of, like, best-foot-forward on a date. We all do that.

JAKE: Yeah. Just have a good heart and you’ll kind of get places. I’ve noticed that when I’ve been authentic and I’ve been real with guys that they really appreciate it. And I really appreciate it too. And so just being yourself, even though it’s so cliché, it’s so true.

JEN: Love it.

RISSA: I have one. My mom is the best human on the whole planet.

JEN: I really, really like your mom.

RISSA:  Yes. She has been on one of the previous episodes. But her rule for all of us growing up was “Speak clearly and kindly.” I think communication is such an important part of dating in general, but also it’s very important to this queer community where there is not script. You have to communicate what you want and what you expect from your partner.

JEN: Perfect.

TRIESTE: Is it okay if I give my advice to, like, the parents?

JEN: 1,000% yes.

TRIESTE: Okay. Awesome. I would say just for if you have a queer kid or a kid that just came out and wants to start dating – or even like an adult kid who has been out for a while and is dating – I would make sure that you are supportive of their relationship. Make it feel like they can come talk to you about their relationship if they’re having a hard time about things. Because they will run into things that are challenging and they’re going to want someone to talk to that they can feel safe around. And for a lot of people, that’s not their parents. I envy my friends who have really good relationships with their parents. They can talk to their parents about dating, clearly because I feel like it’s harder for me. And so just making sure that you are a space where your kid can come to you when they’re at that vulnerable spot with their relationship is really valuable. So try to do everything you can to be that person for them, even if it’s hard for you.

JEN: Suck it up, parents. Help your kid out.

TRIESTE: Yeah. It’s your kid. Help your kid out. Anyway. I have a soap box, but I won’t go on it.

JEN: We actually like soap boxes. You’re totally fine. Does anybody have anything they want to say before I close out? Something they wish they had gotten out into the universe?

MAY: Dating is so cool. It’s so nice, dating someone who has the same kind of experiences in the world as you do, like, being a queer person, it’s amazing. And dating queer people has been some of the best experienced that I’ve every had. It’s truly amazing.

RISSA: I agree. It’s great.

JAKE: It is scary to start, but it is a good time. I enjoy getting to meet people and I enjoy dating.

JEN: Well, thank you guys so much for donating and hour of your time. I really do believe this will help our listeners. Thank you, thank you.

MAY: Thank you so much for listening to us.

JAKE: Yeah. Thanks.

JEN: Thanks for joining us here In the Den. If you enjoyed this episode, please tell your friends, and take a minute to leave a positive rating or review wherever you listen. Good reviews make us more visible and help us reach more folks who could benefit from listening. And if you’d like to help Mama Dragons in our mission to support, educate, and empower the parents of LGBTQ children, please donate at mamadragons.org or click the donate link in the show notes. For more information on Mama Dragons and the podcast, you can follow us on Instagram or Facebook or visit our website at mamadragons.org.