Coming Out When You’re a Mom

EPISODE 66–Coming Out When You’re a Mom

On this podcast, we often have conversations addressing parenting issues with experts, and we talk about parenting with parents.  Today’s episode explores an example of a mom realizing she was queer as an adult parent with grown children, and the impacts that had on her family. In this episode of In the Den, Jen visits with Jamie Michaels, her daughter Lauryl Armstrong, and Jamie’s partner Celeste Carolin about navigating a coming out later in life as a parent.  

Special Guest: Jamie Michaels

Growing up in a Christian household, Jamie Michaels embraced her faith and raised her family within Evangelical Christian teachings. However, in 2015, Jamie came out as gay to her husband and her three adult children, a revelation that challenged her family's beliefs and reshaped many of her relationships. Through her honesty and vulnerability, Jamie navigated the complexities of reconciling her sexuality with her religious roots, while navigating the complexities of a blended family. Her story serves as a powerful reminder of the strength found in embracing one's true self at any stage in life.

Special Guest: Lauryl Armstrong

Lauryl, the eldest child of Jamie Michaels, grew up in an Evangelical Christian household, deeply rooted in faith and tradition. In her early twenties, she embraced her role as a youth leader intern, passionate about guiding and inspiring younger members of her community. Lauryl continued to uphold her family's values, raising her own family within Christianity. However, her world was turned upside down in 2015 when her mother came out as gay, introducing her partner into the family in 2016. This shift challenged Lauryl's beliefs and sparked a journey of self-discovery and acceptance, ultimately reshaping her perspective on love, family, and faith.

Special Guest: Celeste Carolin

Celeste, Jamie Michaels's partner, came from an LDS upbringing, coming out in 2005. Entering Jamie’s predominantly Christian family introduced her to new complexities and unexpected joys, navigating the intricate dynamics of family ties, including adult stepchildren, grandchildren, and proximal family. Blending traditions, managing expectations, and navigating family rules became a delicate dance in their shared journey, where curiosity and adaptability undoubtedly played pivotal roles in fostering harmony and understanding within their blended family unit.

Links from the Show:

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Transcript

JEN: Hello and welcome to In The Den with Mama Dragons. I’m your host, Jen. This podcast was created to walk and talk with you through the journey of raising happy, healthy, and productive LGBTQ humans. Thanks for listening. We’re glad you’re here.

We often have conversations here where we address parenting issues with experts.  And we talk about parenting with parents.  And we often talk to LGBTQ people to gain insight into the variety of lived experiences of those in the community.  We want to understand the wide variety of queer experience so we can be more broadly informed and better parent our own children.  And we also want to understand the data and research and best practices. Today, we have invited a specific group with several interesting intersections to help us understand the coming out process and what it means to be a parent when you come out. So, I’d like to Welcome In the Den – Jaime Michaels, Lauryl Armstrong, and Celeste Carolin.

 LAURYL: Hey

 JAIME: Hello

 JEN: Got an awkward start. Alright. To introduce to you guys, Growing up in a Christian household, Jamie Michaels embraced her faith and raised her family within Evangelical Christian teachings. However, in 2015, Jamie came out as gay to her husband and her three adult children, a revelation that challenged her family's beliefs and reshaped many of these relationships. Through her honesty and vulnerability, Jamie navigated the complexities of reconciling her sexuality with her religious roots, while navigating the complexities of a blended family. Her story serves as a powerful reminder of the strength found in embracing one's true self in any stage in life. Welcome, Jaime.

 JAMIE: Thank you, Jen.

 JEN: Next we have Lauryl Armstrong. Lauryl is the eldest child of Jamie. She grew up in an Evangelical Christian household, deeply rooted in faith and tradition. In her early twenties, she embraced her role as a youth leader intern, passionate about guiding and inspiring younger members of her community. Lauryl continued to uphold her family's values, raising her own family within Christianity. However, her world was turned upside down in 2015 when her mother came out as gay, introducing her partner into the family in 2016. This shift challenged Lauryl's beliefs and sparked a journey of self-discovery and acceptance, ultimately reshaping her perspective on love, family, and faith. Welcome, Lauryl.

 LAURYL: Hey, Thanks. It’s so crazy hearing that. It’s like listening to someone else’s story. And I’m like, wow that’s intense. Oh, it’s about me.

JEN: Oh, it’s me. My situation was intense. Exactly. Last we have Celeste Carolin, Jamie Michaels's partner, came from an LDS upbringing, coming out in 2005. Entering Jamie’s predominantly Christian family introduced her to new complexities and unexpected joys, navigating the intricate dynamics of family ties, including adult stepchildren, grandchildren, and proximal family. Blending traditions, managing expectations, and navigating family rules became a delicate dance in their shared journey, where curiosity and adaptability undoubtedly played pivotal roles in fostering harmony and understanding within their blended family unit. Welcome, Celeste!

 CELESTE: Hi. Thanks for having me here.

JEN: Actually, just welcome to all three of you. I think your story is very interesting and dynamic and it’s a beautiful example, basically, just of family and how family works. And no two families really are the same.  I’ve been excited to talk to you guys about this. All right, Jaime, I’m going to start with you because the focus of the episode really is going to be on Jaime. We’re seeking insight from her daughter and her partner because this stuff can be complicated and it’s important. And I like hearing stories from multiple angles. And Jaime, rumor has it, does not like to be the center of attention. But that’s sort of where we’re going to focus anyway. We’re going to start with you, Jamie. Are you good?

JAIME: I’m good.

JEN: OK. Tell us about your childhood. Talk about how you were raised, and what your views about homosexuality and religion and stuff were during the time of your childhood.

JAIME: Well, I will say that I had no views about homosexuality or really religion. It just was what it was. LGBTQ stuff was not even on my radar until I was an adult. But childhood, I had two siblings. My parents divorced when I was 12. At that time, my mom joined, I guess, became a Christian, joined a Christian faith. And that was sort of the beginning of our, as far as I can remember, meaningful faith journey. I think we went to my Grandma’s little Lutheran church on Christmas Eve occasionally. I think I was baptized as a baby in a Lutheran church. But when I was 12 and my parents divorced and we moved with my mom, we started attending church regularly.  So that just sort of became my normal. A couple of different denominations within the Christian faith, but we kind of hit the whole spectrum from conservative Baptist, some Pentecostal Assembly of God, sort of in the middle. And, as I became an adult, kind of landed with a Nondenominational Evangelical church. And that was the experience that probably all my kids remember most. Maybe a little bit in the Pentecostal.

JEN: When you were little, did you find that the church filled in the blanks of some of the maybe missing spaces with family, like a support group for your mom who was trying to raise kids on her own?

JAIME: Probably. I would say yes. She, probably her closest friends that she has even to this day were from church and really were there for her, were there for us as a family in some really meaningful ways. That was our support, definitely. And kind of ironically, my aunt, my dad’s sister, was one of those people that was really supportive of us.

JEN: Oh, that’s cool.

JAIME: And also involved in the church. So that was definitely the case.

JEN: So, at some point, you have this happy childhood, it sounds like for the most part. Living with your mom in the church. And at some point you met your husband and married him and created a little family of your own.  Talk to us about that part of the story. Were you wildly head-over-heels in love?

JAIME: Yeah. I was young. We met when I was, gosh, maybe 18. I think I was still in high school. And he was funny and sweet and he had a sick mullet which was important back in the 80’s.

JEN: I like how you’re saying that like it’s a plus.

JAIME: Yeah. It was back then, and maybe now.

LAURYL: It’s coming back for sure.

JEN: How can you resist a man with a mullet, really?

JAIME: I know. I didn’t stand a chance. Yeah. And I think we just both were meeting some needs as young kids in each other and fell in love.

JEN: So how old were you, when you met him you were 18. How old were you when you got married?

JAIME: We got married when I was 19.

JEN: Okay. So, you were pretty young.

JAIME: I was an infant, Jen.

JEN: Okay.

JAIME: But at that time . . .

LAURYL: It didn’t feel that way, I’m sure.

JAIME: No. Lauryl was on the way. I was pregnant with her when we got married. But I remember always saying this and giving this disclaimer, “We were engaged before I found out I was pregnant.” That was, like, a really important part of my story.

JEN: Is that important for Lauryl’s benefit or for your own reputation?

JAIME: I think it was for my own. I don’t know if she cares? Is that a . . .

LAURYL: No.

JEN: She’s shaking her head, No.

JAIME: So we were young, young and dumb and in love and had a baby on the way. And then he joined the Navy. And so a good chunk of our early years were him in the Navy. We had a couple of kids by then. So, yeah, it was just kind of, obviously, I had a conscious choice of what I was doing. But as I look back, I was just kind of riding this wave of what I thought was what I was supposed to be doing and what I’d seen.

JEN: And you had been raised by a single mom. So, some of that with your husband just gone and being home with the kids had to seem pretty normal. You had some skills, probably, by then. You figured out how to do.

JAIME: Yeah. I was doing my best. It was hard. I just did it. I look back and I think, “Man.” I didn’t live near any family. We moved according to where he was stationed. And I had two or three little kids that I was, at times, raising by myself and taking responsibility of by myself. But I never really thought, I can’t believe I’m doing this. This is so hard. I mean, what other choice, I did what needed to be done and did my best. And I wouldn’t recommend it.

JEN: So, at this point you’re 19 to 22, 23. What were you thinking about yourself or other people in regards to orientation or gender or LGBTQ issues? Was any of that on your radar?

JAIME: No, Jen, that was not even a blip on the screen at that point. My life and my thoughts were being a good mom, being a good Christian mom. That was really important to me. We were attending church regularly and there’s like a sort of unspoken pressure – sometimes not unspoken – but a really underlying expectation of how that looks and how a Christian family looks, how a Christian mom looks, how the kids look and behave and values. And I was always a bit of an oddball because my husband wasn’t always there. He was gone. I just didn’t quite fit that .

LAURYL: There just wasn’t a lot of Navy families.

JAIME: No, there wasn’t. Wasn’t a lot of Navy families and so as far as sexuality, gender, none of that was even on my radar. I didn’t have even vague acquaintances that would expose me to that. And in my bubble, my community was church. So, at that time, in the 90’s, early 90’s, it just wasn’t – at least where I was – was not spoken about. There wasn’t people that were out but celibate. I can’t even think of an anecdotal story that I might have heard. It just wasn’t spoken about.

JEN: Like what kind of things, I  just want to hear your vision from your perspective of that time. If you can even put yourself back there. But you talked about being a good Christian mom. And I know for sure what that meant to me as a young mom. But I’m wondering what that meant to you. What does it look like to be a good Christian mom with all these little kids?

LAURYL: That’s a good question.

JAIME: For me, it was about, like I put my own mom on, fairly or not, on this pedestal as far as examples of that. And I really valued her approval and opinion. So looking back, I just put a lot of stock in whether expectations, perceived expectations, from her. So how that played out in my own experience was I’m taking the kids, I’m going to church every Sunday, going to mid-week services, making sure the kids are involved. And there were times where I was just done, like, I didn’t want to go to church anymore. But this huge weight of the eternal salvation and well-being of my kids kept me going.

JEN: That’s a big motivator.

JAIME: Yeah.

JEN: What do you remember from this time, Lauryl?

LAURYL: Like, if I’m thinking about early years when I was younger, like, my dad was gone a lot, out to sea and stuff. I don’t have a lot of memories that are, like, negative  during that time. Like, It was being involved in the church as an adolescent was always really fun, great activities, great friends, great adults. Looking back now, maybe not so many great adults. But, looking back then, I remember going to church all the time. I remember always being there. I remember having to put my best face on and be on my best behavior. But it wasn’t until I was older until got things got a little more difficult to accept about the church, like, probably when I got into high school, maybe.  

JEN: I’m kind of curious because I know from your introduction that you became a youth leader.

LAURYL: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

JEN: Was that as an adult? So you kind of survived the high school stuff and stayed super involved?

LAURYL: Yeah. Up until fairly recently, I was heavily involved. My oldest two girls were dedicated in the church. And I was pregnant with my third, is when we kind of started to leave. So that was 2016, 2017 was when I started to leave the church. But, I went to a Christian high school. I moved out-of-state to join an apprenticeship in a church. So, yeah, I was on that kind of same trajectory.

JEN: Okay. That makes sense. And did the subject, I keep asking this in different ways, Jaime, and you can say, “Keep asking. I’m going to keep giving you the same answer.” But I’m just wondering if there were thoughts in your head. Like, were you 15 and you were ever kind of attracted to a girl and you were like, I just want to be friends. Like, did you push stuff down and ignore it, or did you just not have a lens to interpret it?

JAIME: Yeah. Probably, all of the above. I mean, looking back, there’s kind of head scratching, like, “Hmm. That was suspicious.”

JEN: Those butterflies in my stomach.

LAURYL: What was that about?

JAIME: But I didn’t really have a framework to process that. And if I did ever even start to go there, I literally remember this just fear and anxiety taking over me in my body, like a panic attack almost. And immediately shut that down. That’s not going to happen. I will say I was not a super self-reflective person in my 20s. It just wasn’t . . .

JEN: When you have three kids and you're doing the diapers and the feedings and the tantrums and everybody ready for church, there’s not a lot of time for self-reflection.

JAIME: No. And it was always, any kind of self-reflection that I did or looking inward was around how I could be a better Christian, how I could lead my family spiritually. That was always the context, which is sometimes helpful.

JEN: Did you have ideas in your mind or ideas that you were teaching your kids about the proper role of women in society and the proper relationships, things like that seems essential to teach?

JAIME: I think by example, Lauryl, you can maybe speak to this. I don’t really recall, like, formal conversations about what roles in relationships, men and women.

LAURYL: We didn’t really, yeah. I don’t remember anything like that. Moreso, like, this is just an unsaid this is the expectation this is how it goes. This is the family dynamic that is the right one.

JAIME: Yeah.

JEN: To me, in my memory, that’s sort of how the 90’s were. Nobody really talked a whole ton about this stuff.

LAURYL: For sure.

JEN: You just knew what was okay. And then, if anybody in the realm ventured into the not-okay space, you all knew it was not okay because people would kind of shut it down. So that feels very 90’s-ish to me.

LAURYL: And I remember even, just like talking about getting married growing up. There was always definitely that, I guess, now, now, I don’t say this. But back then it was just like those normal little girl conversations that you have.

JAIME: Right.

LAURYL: Now I don’t think that they’re normal. But I did then.

JEN: Like that expectation, when you’re a mom?

LAURYL: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

JEN: Okay.

LAURYL: Or, this is just going to prepare you for motherhood, and you’re like, “Well, I’m ten. So that’s a weird thing to say.”

JEN: I was just recently explaining to a friend how when I was 12 I was taken on a church activity to try on wedding dresses. And we made a list of qualities for our future spouses. So we’re at a wedding store trying on wedding dresses.

LAURYL: At twelve? 

JEN: Yeah. And they laminated our husband-wish lists and then gave them back to us.

LAURYL: Oh my gosh, Jen.

JEN: Mine was on very fancy stationery. It had a beautiful rose on the side. And I think back now going, “Wow.”

LAURYL: I hope you still have it. Do you still have it?

JEN: I’m kind of a keeper of stuff. I for sure had it when I got married because I, full on, pulled that out and compared it item per item to my actual spouse. So their lesson worked.

LAURYL: I had something similar, but it was like a journal entry. It wasn’t so fancy. But we had the lists. The lists were a thing.

JAIME: Yeah.

LAURYL: These were the traits that you want in a man – or, yeah, in a man because it definitely wasn’t a woman. But these are the traits that you want in your husband. And if he doesn’t meet these expectations, he’s not the one.

JEN: Yeah.

JAIME: He’s not God’s plan for you.

LAURYL: He’s not.

JAIME: God’s best. He’s not God’s best.

JEN: Is that how you guys worded it, “God’s best.” I like that.

LAURYL: I don’t even remember what was phrased as.

JAIME: Jen, when you were talking about the class that you went to when you were twelve, it made me think of something. I went to a Christian school 7th through, like, 11th grade. But we had this thing in 7th grade called “Poise and Charm” and it was like an after school program for the girls.

JEN: Okay.

JAIME: And we went to this lady’s house and we cut out outfits and learned about colors for our clothing. How a lady behaves, right?

JEN: Like you don’t bend over, you squat to pick things up.

JAIME: Right. Right. Crossing your legs, the proper way to cross your legs, the proper way to stand when you were taking a photo.

LAURYL: I’m sure there were some lessons in there.

JEN: Did you have these lessons growing up, too.

CELESTE: Just from friends.

JEN: Okay.

CELESTE: My lessons were different because I grew up with four boys. And I was told all the time that I was doing it wrong, the girl.

JEN: Because you were too girly, or because you were too masculine.

CELESTE: No, like I was a little boy. I sat like a boy. I moved like a boy. And I was reminded often by my friends of like, “You walk weird.”

JEN: You walk like a boy.

CELESTE: Exactly. People would point it out. And I’d be like, “I don’t even know what that means.”

JEN: So they were trying to help you conform to this.

CELESTE: They were trying to help me conform to the rule.

JEN: Okay.

CELESTE: Which, I didn’t know there was a rule. I was just a rugrat.

LAURYL: Copying your brothers.

CELESTE: I was just copying my brothers because that’s what I knew.

JEN: Okay. So we get overt lessons and really subtle messages about how we’re supposed to behave. And we internalize these things. At some point, Jaime, for you and Lauryl, you’re doing – I have this picture of us being the same family. You’re home, your husband’s gone a lot. You’re raising your kids in the church and maybe you’re quoting bible verses in the car on the way to school .

LAURYLL: Oh, Yeah. There were always memorizing bible verses, always.

JEN: I feel like we’re the same family. I’m the mom in the case. And then something changed. And we mentioned it in the introductions, 2015. But something changed. And Jaime, obviously you’re the one who noticed this change first. But talk to us about it.

LAURYL: I mean, it had to have been before 2015 that you noticed.

JAIME: Well, yeah.

LAURYL: I would hope.

JEN: You didn’t notice and come out the same day? Okay.

JAIME: It’s difficult. I’m trying to think of years. Years before 2015 I was in a relationship with another woman that was unexpected. I wasn’t seeking that out.

JEN: Wait. Stop for a second and kind of break down for me a little bit. Were you like, at the time, in your mind going this is super weird. I would never do this with any other woman, because I’m obviously straight.

JAIME: Yeah.

JEN: Okay.

JAIME: Definitely.

LAURYL: I’m sorry I’m laughing. It’s just like crazy to look back on.

JAIME: Yeah.

JEN: It is weird what we can do in our heads to make things make sense, right? 

LAURYL: Yeah.

JAIME: Yeah. It was accompanied with a ton of guilt and shame constantly, multilayered about.

LAURYL: That’s so sad.I’m sorry. I keep interjecting.

JEN: You’re welcome to

LAURYL: Okay. 

JEN: I like your insights.

LAURYL: It just makes me sad to think about because obviously I was there and I had no idea, obviously, because you don’t look at your mom having –  I just thought she’s made because I didn’t take the chicken out of the freezer, you know.

JEN: How old were you at this point, Lauryl?

LAURYL: Well, I left after high school.

JEN: So this was after you had graduated?

LAURYL: I mean, it was probably all in that same time I was 16, 17, 18, 19. So, I don’t know what year that was. But it was all intermeshed.

JAIME: Probably 2005, 2006, 2007, towards the end of your high school, yeah.

LAURYL: So, to know that, now, to know what she was going through, guilt and shame. I look back on that now and it’s heartbreaking, really.

CELESTE: I’m kind of curious about a specific –  for this to create framing. But when it first started, you had feelings for a woman, what kind of thoughts went through your head? What were the gymnastics around this idea that you were having these feelings for a woman?

JAIME: I compartmentalized and I thought it’s just this – Oh, man. I haven’t thought about this in so long. It was a lot of mental gymnastics and a lot of really hard work in my mind so I could function. But I would say that I sort of categorized it as this specific person is meeting this specific need at this specific time in my life, and just like drilled down into not a big picture scenario. I would never say that I was gay or lesbian. I couldn’t because I was a Christian. And, at one point, I was distraught, went to a therapist, walked in and kind of gave my story, led with I’m a Christian. And after a while, she said, “Do you think maybe that you’re gay?” And I lost it. I got super upset. And I’m not like a confrontational person. But I got confrontational with this woman. It was, like, so deep in my soul how offensive it was that she would even suggest that after I went in there and told her I’m a Christian. So I didn’t believe she was helping me and I stormed out and didn’t go back to therapy for a while. I regret that. I think a lot of pain could’ve been avoided if I’d have stuck with that in that story.

JEN: But I think it points pretty clearly to how unready, how unwilling you were to even consider.

JAIME: Yeah.

JEN: You were much more comfortable being a straight woman who just happened to be with a woman for now, then you were actually digging – because it has consequences, right?

JAIME: Sure.

JEN: If you’re going to start thinking about this, there’s reality that comes with it. We had a guest a couple of weeks ago talk about how she was trans her whole life and she could kind of ignore the pebble in her shoe until it smacked her in the face and then she couldn’t ignore it anymore. And that’s kind of the energy that this feels like, right, if the therapist gets you to admit it or even consider it, you can’t ignore it anymore.

JAIME: Right. Yeah. And action would be required. But I wasn’t prepared to go down that path. I felt that I would lose everything. Felt I would lose my kids, my extended family, obviously my husband.

JEN: And potentially your soul, right?

JAIME: Oh, yeah. That minor detail.

JEN: That seems like a big one to me.

JAIME: Yeah. Oh, definitely. Yeah.

JEN: That seems like big stuff. But at some point you had to face it.

JAIME: Yes. And that didn’t come until years later.

JEN: Was it just so relentlessly heavy or did you just push it out?

JAIME: I pushed it down. I’m very good at compartmentalizing. Not as much now. I don’t like to do it now. But back then, I had to, to function in my life. I had kids.

JEN: Like a survival technique.

JAIME: Yeah. I think that’s a family trait that has been passed down many generations. By the way, that’s a different story.

JEN: You decided to or you were compelled to, at some point you had to take a look at it.

JAIME: Right.

JEN: What motivated that?

JAIME: I think it wasn’t one thing in particular. It was a combination of things. I think my faith started to kind of evolve. This is going to sound really weird. But those of you that are from a very conservative religious background, drinking was off the table. It was a sin to drink in my experience. And I started going to this church and I went over – it was a small planted church, very new. Maybe 30 people in the church. And one day, I went over to the pastor’s, in his wife’s house. And we were doing some kind of project outside. And there was a few people. And he said, “Let’s grill some hot dogs. I’ll go down to the store and get some beers.” And I was like, “What the?” It was such a weird shift in my mind. And now looking back, it’s so minor. But that just kind of gives you an idea of the black and white thinking that I was operating in. And I was like, I wasn’t judgmental. I was like, “Okay, this is curious.” So he went and got the beers. We drank the beers. We had hot dogs. We continued on our project. And I stayed at that church for quite a while. Lauryl, I think you might’ve been gone by that time, moved out.

LAURYL: Yeah. I was.

JAIME:  But that was sort of the beginning of looking at my faith differently and that there’s more than one way to  . . . .

JEN: Yeah, like your first glimpse that there isn't everything or, like, you couldn’t be gay because you’re Christian. You couldn’t be Christian if you drank.

JAIME: Yeah. So I did a lot of exploring. There was some writers that I found on the internet. There’s a writer called Rachel Held Evans.

JEN: Love her.

JAIME: And she’s since passed. But she was just getting started and writing some things about just a different view of Christianity and being a Christian woman and that it didn’t have to be this one way. And that was kind of, they were very tiny steps over years. And as far as relationships with women, it was like an up and down crazy journey, still held a lot of guilt and shame over that. At some point, I told my husband about it and this is more towards the end. We started going to therapy. But at some point, I mean, the therapy was good. I think we were making some progress. But, still, at some point I was like why. Two of my kids were out of the house, one was graduating and I just thought, “Why am I doing this? Why am I trying so hard” and kind of looking at that. And, you know, I remember saying when I was young that divorce is not an option. I said that to my husband. We said it to each other. We said it to our family.

LAURYL: Said it to us.

JAIME: Yeah.

JEN: Did you guys know that they were talking about divorce and stuff, Lauryl? Or were you guys not aware at all?

LAURYL: As I got older, I was like, “This isn’t viable.”

JEN: So I’m going to skip a little bit because you’re going to therapy, you’re trying to work it out, and at some point you’re like this is not happening. And you got divorced and you moved to Seattle.

JAIME: I did.

JEN: And then you just joined all the apps and started dating all the women?

JAIME: Not right away.

JEN: What happened in Seattle?

JAIME: So, I’d been wanting to move to Washington forever. Lauryl was already up here, one grandchild. And my sister was up here and her family. My mom lived up here. I think my brother lived up here at that point too. And I just loved it up here. Every time that I’d come to visit, I’m like, “How am I going to get up there.” And so when it came time to move along, this is where I came. I came up here. I had quit my job that I had had for ten years, left my church community, obviously left my marriage, friends. Came up and found a job, got a little basement apartment and just tried to get my head together for a year. I kind of had it in my mind I just need a year to settle. And I had come out, like, three months before I moved.

JEN: I was just going to ask about that. So your husband knew.

JAIME: That was like in May of 2015.

JEN: During therapy and stuff, right, during therapy it kind of . . .

JAIME: He knew that I had had that relationship. I think it probably came as a surprise to him, at least the way he reacted, that I just said, you know, I’m gay. This is what it is. That’s not really something we were talking about in therapy. The kind of therapy we were going to, that approach was we’re looking forward. We’re not looking back. We’re looking forward with the goal of staying together, divorce is not an option, still on that vein of thinking. So, yeah.

JEN: So he knew and you got divorced. But then you have three kids and you have parents and you have to tell all of them.

JAIME: I know. And I look back on that. That is something that I wished I’d done different. I feel like it was partly like I was still operating under guilt and shame. And it was sort of like a price I had to pay. Punishment sounds like a harsh term, but I felt like I needed to experience on some level the pain that I was inflicting on these people that I loved.

JEN: Talk to me about that for a sec, cause do you mean like the pain of staying in the closet?

JAIME: No. Like the pain of telling them was so difficult and I knew that I was hurting them. I felt that I was hurting them and disappointing them and nothing was going to be the same. So I had this conversation individually with all my kids, obviously with my husband, with my mom, with my siblings. I think maybe even, and of course with my friends. I must’ve had the  conversation maybe 10 times. And every time it was like, I don't know. Looking back, I didn’t need to do that, but I felt that I owed everyone this sort of confession, this apology.

LAURYL: Explanation, maybe.

JAIME: Explanation, justification. In my thinking that that was helping people, I don’t know that it necessarily did and I don’t know that it helped me really navigate that process. But, I mean, it got the job done.

LAURYL: How would you even know what to do in that? No one would know.

JEN: How did everybody respond to you?

JAIME: I would say with my mom, my sister, my brother, they were, “We love you. We want you to be happy.” I took that at face value at that time because that’s what I needed. I also had doubts in the back of my mind of like, “OK. I don’t have any skin in the game right now. This is all very theoretical. So, we’ll see how that goes.” If I get a partner, if I start dating, whatever that’ll look like. So with the adult kids, it was different for each one. I would say the easiest conversation was with my middle son. He called me at work. I was working at a restaurant. I take the call outside. And he’s like, “Mommy, are you gay?” and I was like, “What?”

JEN: Like he guessed?

JAIME: Yeah. I don’t know where, I think it came from conversations he was having with his friends.

LAURYL: Yeah. Just like even me and him talking and hearing the sorts of things that, it was just like connecting the dots almost.

JAIME: Right. Yeah.

JEN: So you were one of the kids, Lauryl. Your mom is coming out to you. You’re raised in the church. You have kids of your own at this time.

LAURYL: Yeah. I have. I have one and then one very soon coming.

JEN: So you’re kind of following in the footsteps that your mom has laid out.

LAURYL: 100%. Yes.

JEN: And then all the sudden she throws out, “Hey, by the way, you should be aware”. How was that?

LAURYL: Well, yeah. Her being gay and coming out to me was the easiest part. Honestly, I was like, “Thank goodness.” I just like, it was clarity, you know. Like something that she was telling me that was informational. So that was nice because I kind of felt like I was just in the dark. And I felt like I was – not that she owes me anything. She’s my mom. She doesn’t owe me any sort of explanation. But I just felt in the dark about it. I felt like I wasn’t being told the truth. And that was harder for me to navigate because I remember going down there to visit towards the end of their marriage and just her making plans to move. And it just being so strange because I felt like she wasn’t being transparent. And it just felt weird and kind of icky. And so that part of it was harder.

JEN: Did you have conceptions or judgements about the idea of being gay?

LAURYL: Oh, Yeah. Of course. But when it came to my mom, they were instantly gone for some reason. Once I found out, I was like, well then none of that makes sense because she’s my mom.

JEN: I know she’s not these other things.

LAURYL: Right. So I mean, my entire childhood and even going to younger adolescent years or younger adult years, yes. It was one of those things where it was like you – what’s the saying – hate the sin, love the sinner. Whatever the saying is. You know what I mean. Hate the sin.

JEN: Yeah. Love the sinner, hate the sin.

JAIMe: It's’ a classic.

LAURYL: Is a classic, love the sinner, hate the sin. There it is. So, there was that. But there was a lot of wrestling with, like, “Is it a choice? Is it not a choice? If it was a choice, why would someone chose this?” So it was a lot of that, but it was never like, there was not a thought in my mind that she’s shunned. She can’t be a part of my life. There was never any of that.

JEN: Did it launch you into some sort of a faith deconstruction or transition?

LAURYL: It did. It definitely did, Jen.

JEN: That makes sense when you’re holding paradox, you have to find something that makes sense, right?

LAURYL: So, like I said, we were still pretty involved in our local church, the church that I moved up here to be a part of, the church that my friends, my family, my community at this point. Only really like my toddler was involved in, so I would imagine having older kids would’ve been different. I remember being in a small group and kind of opening up about it but not getting too much because I felt like I was going to be judged in some weird way because my mom was gay. I don't know. I would have to explain my mom to other people, so I was very vague about it for a while in my community. But, I mean, this is going to sound so cheesy but it’s the truth. If it wasn’t for Mick, my spouse, my husband, I think it would’ve taken me a lot longer to change, completely my perspective.

JEN: I was just going to ask about that, if your husband had a different perspective because you’re doing the Christian thing and raising your kids and you’re like, wait a minute.

LAURYL: He did. He was not raised in the church. He kind of was just along for the ride. He is like, “Oh, this is the woman that I want to be with so I’m going to go to church on Sundays. And I'm going to pray with her because that’s what she wants from me.” But he definitely wasn’t all in. And it’s interesting looking back on that time because I’m kind of embarrassed for myself for, like, the list. The list was pretty important still.

JEN: Yes.

LAURYL: Yeah. He was just kind of like the one that was like we have two kids and this is – I thought about it too in this way – if my mom wanted to be involved in the church or if she wanted to get married in the church or if she wanted to lead a song group, they would not have let her. And that,  and Mick pointing that out to me, was like, “Okay.”

JAIME: Is that a weird thing to reconcile who you experience me as before, involved in church?

LAURYL: Oh, yeah. That was all very confusing too. But when I think about that, it’s like, “What’s the difference now that she’s not pretending to be – I don’t know, not to say that you were pretending that whole time. But I just mean, like, so were you going to get on stage now as a lesbian and promote the gay agenda on the stage? Like, I just, I couldn’t, it just all seemed off.

JEN: And if you know how awesome your mom is, it’s got to be a little bit of a trick to be like, “What? You guys are missing the boat here.”

LAURYL: And so Mick’s was like, “We have two kids and we’ve got skin in the game.” To take what you said. Is this really what we want to do? Is this really the way we want to raise our kids with this mindset? And the answer was no, very, very easily, no. I don’t want to talk badly about the church or the church that I was heavily involved in at all. but it was our decision for our family, our marriage, our kids, our extended family, this was the decision. This is where we were going to stand in it. And so, yeah, we did all the hard work of leaving all of it. But also, I would never do the hard work of staying in it, the hard work that it would’ve been for us.

JEN: Did you feel at any level, Lauryl – or Jaime  actually – that you had to choose between supporting and being loyal to authenticity and family members or chose your faith? Like, did it feel like you had to pick between the two?

LAURYL: Maybe at the beginning a little bit. But, like I said, it dissipated pretty quick.

JAIME: I would say that too.

JEN: You think the church would’ve let you, like for your Lauryl, to be super affirming and accepting and embrace your mom and fully participate in the church?

LAURYL: Yeah. I think they would’ve. Yeah. For sure because there are people that are out in the church. Obviously, there’s affirming churches everywhere. This specific church, I can’t really speak to because I don’t really think maybe they are. I’ve been out for how many years now, six or seven years, so I don’t know where they stand right now. But I don’t think they’re affirming. They’re accepting but that’s different.

JEN: So all the coming out happened before you moved to Seattle, right Jaime?

JAIME: Yeah.

JEN: And so you dated a little bit, but that’s when Celeste comes in the picture. So talk to us, Celeste. What did it look like?

JAIME: Enter, Celeste.

LAURYL: Enter the gayest person I’ve ever met.

JEN: You’ve got to get out more. There’s way gayer people than Celeste.

LAURYL: No. I know. This is what I’m saying. My mom. I had one gay friend in high school, but she was very feminine. And then I worked with one gay guy at Starbucks who was also, this is the only people that I knew.

JEN: Represents all lesbianism.

LAURYL: And so Celeste, she’s coming in hot with the lesbian.

CELESTE: I do fit some stereotypes. I do. I don’t mean to.

JAIME: [inaudible] backwards trucker hat.

LAURYL: I’m sorry if I came off like . . .

CELESTE: No. I know.

LAURYL: But that’s where my head was in 2015. I was like, okay.

JEN: I think that’s why we’re laughing because it makes sense to us all. It’s funny because it’s real. 

LAURYL: Okay. Good.

CELESTE: You know, it was different for me. So I had never dated anybody who had kids. I knew that kids weren’t on the radar for me. I wasn’t interested in kids. And so when I met Jaime, she’s like, “I have these three adult kids that they’re launched. I’m doing my own thing.” And I’m like, ‘Oh, that sounds good.” But I didn’t really understand what that meant.

JEN: Did you think, “Oh, they’re launched, good.” That’s the same as not having kids?

CELESTE: Kind of. Like, in my family, that’s how it is. Like it’s like, oh, they’re launched. You get to see them, maybe once a year.

LAURYL: Out of sight, out of mind.

CELESTE: Kind of.

JEN: Okay.

CELESTE: And we hit it off really well. She fit a lot of needs that I had. I think I fit a lot of needs she had. And when I met her, I was like, “Oh, I need to get my stuff together. She’s my person.” And it was a bit before I met any of the family members. Jaime is a fairly cautious person and took some time. And I met Adam first, the middle son.

JAIME: The easy one.

JEN: I was just going to say, he was the easiest to come out to. I remember Adam.

CELESTE: And he was funny about it. Like, at one point, we were at dinner and Jaime went to use the restroom and he like leaned across the table and he was like, “What are your intentions with my mother.”

JEN: Okay. That’s adorable.

CELESTE: And he was kind of joking, but kind of serious. He was just trying to get a feel of, like, what does this mean. And Lauryl, you were the last one I met.

LAURYL: I don’t think it was intentional.

CELESTE: No. Your mom was more nervous about you meeting me.

LAURYL: I was fragile.

CELESTE: you will still working, from my perspective, you were still trying to figure out what this all meant for you and your family.

LAURYL: Yeah. Yeah.

CELESTE: And I remember meeting you at the pizza place and your guard was way up.

LAURYL: Yeah.

 CELESTE: You were like, “You are not penetrating this fortress.”

LAURYL: Yeah. For sure.

JEN: She didn’t know how relentless you might be.

CELESTE: I don’t know. I don’t know how I came off or anything. I just wanted to be part of the family. I was in.

LAURYL: Yeah.

JEN: So how long did you guys date before you started meeting Jaime’s family, or Jaime’s kids?

CELESTE: In lesbian time, lesbian years?

JEN: Let’s go with actual calendar.

CELESTE: It’s got to be at least a few months.

JAIME: Yeah. Two or three months.

JEN: Oh, so that is lesbian years. Okay.

CELESTE: Yeah.

LAURYL: And also, you were in Seattle. So it wasn’t like . . .

 CELESTE: No. I wasn’t here. Like, I wasn’t in the family picture. I mean, something they didn’t quite know, but the family’s all here. We all live within ten miles of each other. So Jaime’s mom, Jaime’s brother, Jaime’s sister and Lauryl. We all live within ten miles of each other.

JEN: So, I want to hear, Celeste, about when you met Jaime’s parents.

CELESTE: Well, Jaime’s father has passed. But I met Jaime’s mom and I really like her. We, um, we actually connect fairly easily. She’s an artist. I love art. I don’t know. I feel like she’s really easy for me to get along with. And then my background of working kind of with folks that come from religious backgrounds, I felt like I kind of knew what I was getting into. And I don’t have the history that Jaime has with her mom. And so I feel like I was able to kind of come in from maybe a more neutral spot of like, I’m just here to build a relationship with you.

JEN: Were you scared to meet the kids and the family?

CELESTE: No. Maybe more the kids, because I don’t know what that means. Lauryl and I, we’re not that far apart. Like, if I met her on the street, I would want to be friends with her.

JEN: You mean like not that far apart in age?

CELESTE: I think age and just interests and things. 

LAURYL Yeah. Both. 

CELESTE: Like when we hang out, I just feel like I’m hanging out with one of my friends. And so I just didn’t know.

LAURYL: That’s so interesting that you’d say that because Annabel, my second, asked me today. She’s like, “Does Celeste want you to call her mom?” Or does Wes, they call her Wes. And I was like, No. Anyway, I just thought it was cute.

CELESTE: Just like in a blended family, this is just my first blended family. Like I didn’t know, how do you do it. I felt like –  I still do sometimes –  but I felt really on the outside. And I was like, okay, I’m on the outside but I don’t know how to get on the inside. And Jaime and I ended up moving in together about a year later. So, now I’m here. I’m here with this family that’s like a unit that does things often together. Like on a weekly basis we’re doing something connecting, moving in this realm of family. And I didn’t know how to do it.

JEN: And you hadn’t planned on doing it?

CELESTE: No. But, I don't know. I was in.

LAURYL: I’m sure glad you did.

JEN: Did you see yourself as having a specific role in, like Lauryl mentioned that you were the first lesbian that she was kind of exposed to. Did you have any feeling that you had a specific role to represent normalcy or represent healthiness that they could hold onto in this tumultuous history?

JAIME: That’s a great question.

JEN: Tumultuous is probably extreme but.

CELESTE: I don’t think so. I think that more than anything, I came in with my own family system, like how my family did things or how I learned to operate in the world. And I communicated a lot differently than Jaime’s family. Like, I like more open and comfortable talking about things. And Jaime’s family rules, they are less comfortable about talking about things. So I, like even more so, felt kind of on the outside because I was, like, asking questions about how people felt and that wasn’t allowed. Why am I talking about this? Or if there was something going on, I would just, like, say it. And it was different for the family. And it took me a minute to kind of figure things out. Even, like, I remember our first holiday together. And everything was like your traditions with your kids and your traditions with your husband and your traditions with your church. And it was all kind of coming out of these boxes. And I felt like, but where’s the traditions with us? Like, how do we meld together but still honor this history you have and these really important relationships?

JAIME: Yeah.

CELESTE: I don’t if you remember that.

JAIME: No. I do. That took a minute to navigate and find a place that we both felt seen and comfortable with.

JEN: Was it different, Jaime, like I got married pretty young. Not quite as young as you, but pretty young. And so when people talked about traditions, I didn’t have – it was easy, we were both so young. We just kind of created things from our families together. Was it different when you were actually already a mom to parse together traditions?

JAIME: I think our traditions, are you talking about when I was married, like.

JEN: Like when you were married at 19, as opposed to when you’re living with Celeste in your 40.

JAIME: Yeah. Yeah. I see what you’re saying. Well, I took a lot of the traditions that I had when I was younger from my childhood and extended family. Tradition is very important to my family. So I just continued on with a lot of those. Added some here and there as the kids got older. And then didn’t even really think twice about bringing that into this new season. So, as Celeste says, there was some crunchiness those first few Christmases of blending those and finding a good balance that was meaningful to both of us. I remember – Celeste, I don’t know if you remember this – we were talking about a Christmas tree the first year we were together and you wanted to do, like, an army man themed Christmas tree.

CELESTE: Such a good idea.

JEN: Wow. That isn’t common.

JAIME: And I was not on-board for that, if you can imagine. Like, I was bringing out the macaroni ornaments with the kids' faces in them and stuff like that.

LAURYL: Since, Celeste, you have been together, you have the best tree every year. The themes, the ornaments, I think it’s really inspiring to just do whatever you want.

JEN: Did you do the army man Christmas tree?

CELESTE: Oh, no. Oh, no. We didn’t.

JAIME: Remember how I said compromise and balance, Jen?

JEN: I wanted a picture.

CELESTE: I think it was trying to honor, it took some discussions about how do we really honor the traditions that she had in the family. I remember when Sam came home for Christmas and how excited he was to see the stuff that was there when he was a kid, which in the beginning, I didn’t really understand. I’m not super nostalgic. I didn’t understand that that was so important. Right. and I was like, why do we have to put up all these weird, weird, collage things, Jesus.

JEN: These ornaments made of paper.

CELESTE: I’m like, I want it to be pretty and cohesive and tell a story. And it took a minute for me to understand this language of this family.

JEN: That actually leads me to something that I want to make sure we cover is conversation. Because, in my head, there’s the whole narrative is kind of a lot of difficult conversations.

JAIME: Mm-hmm.

JEN: Whether it’s navigating marital counseling and having to talk to your husband about those things. Or navigating the conversations in your own head where you’re like, “I might be gay.” “No, I’m not.” “You might be.” You know, like that kind of wrestle. That kind of conversation in your own head. But the dialog with your kids and your parents and then bringing in a spouse. So I want to talk to all of you about the ways you process these difficult conversations and what you’ve learned and all things about conversation and dialogue on sticky, prickly, because some of this stuff is hard.

JAIEM: Yeah.

JEN: This is hard stuff. I want to hear how you talked about it.

JAMIE: I’ll start out by saying and you kind of asked us of how it was for Celeste when communicating with the family and coming into the family. I feel like, and I think Lauryl will attest to this too that our family communication is much better because of Celeste.

LAURYL: Yeah.

JAIME:  I feel like she’s set such a fantastic example of not shying away from hard conversations.

LAURYL: And creating a safe space to just say what you need to say without a reaction that is.

JAIME: So she has definitely led by example in how to have conversation. So that’s one thing. Also, I think all of us individually are just doing the work. Not to sound cliché, but I think we’re – I want to continue to grow and evolve as a person and as a mom of adult children, as a grandmother, as a partner. All my relationships, I want to continue to nurture and get healthy. And that hasn’t always been the case in the past. And I would like to break some of the familial cycles of things that aren’t healthy and push back against those. And sometimes it’s hard to break those, what’s the neural pathways and the ruts that your brain creates to sort of redirect those. And it’s difficult.

JEN: So, before Celeste came in, did you just kind of steal yourself to make an announcement and not really talk about it?

JAIME: Yeah. Oh, yeah.

JEN: Like, “I would like to tell you that I’m gay.”

JAIME: It was always couched. Those initial conversations that I had with my family were definitely couched in a sort of apologetic language. I’m sorry I’m doing this to you. It kind of gives me the cringy’s in my body when I think about some of those conversations and how I was feeling at that time. So I kind of took the focus off of me and let the people I was – in my mind hurting – become the victims. I’m processing this out loud for the first time now. So, apologies if it doesn’t make sense.

JEN: My bad.

JAIME: But I think that was sort of the language. So it wasn’t like I was really owning my voice. I was, but also really focusing on the other person and how they would be affected and how I could manage that. I still have a tendency to manage and want to make everybody feel alright and take care of everybody’s feelings. Decide for everybody, that’s one thing Celeste has brought into my life is “Don’t decide for me.” I’ll make an assumption of something that I think she feels or a decision she’ll make and she checks me and I check myself.

LAURYL: I was going to say, just therapy and all that is changing the way we communicate with each other. And I mean, for me, having kids obviously having kids that are similar to me. I don’t know, it puts a mirror up and you’re like, oh, okay. I need to make the adjustment. They don’t need to make any adjustments.

JEN: Did having these conversations with your mom about her feelings and stuff change the way that you started to communicate in your own marriage, Lauryl and with your own kids?

LAURYL: No, not with my mom. No. It hasn’t been an easy road as far as –  we’ve always been close. We’ve always had a good relationship. There’s never been any serious trauma. But, like she’s saying, deciding how people feel. I had that. I have that. I work through it all the time. I don’t want to make people sad. I don’t want to hurt people’s feelings. I don’t want my stuff to affect someone else. So this is separate. I’m able to have conversations with my mom like that now because of the separate work that I’ve done.

JEN: And how did that work for you, Celeste? Celeste, you come into the family and you’re like, “Oh, there’s new rules.” Did you feel like you were trying to adapt to their rules or were you like, ‘Hey, guess what? We could talk about things and that will be actually healthier. Come my direction”?

CELESTE: I  think a mix. I definitely had some, I still do sometimes, I have some, I want things to happen more on my timeline. But I also have to respect Jaime’s relationships are her relationships and I don’t get to overstep that. I don’t get to be like, “Hey, I’m going to have this difficult conversation with your person because you should be ready to have that difficult conversation.”

JEN: I’ll be talking to your mom about this.

CELESTE: Right. That’s not my place. And so there’s this also, like, kind of holding both and being like, “Hey, I feel some discomfort when I‘m in spaces that people think I’m going to hell or I’m broken.” And it’s not my job because it’s your person. I can only do what I need to do to keep that space. But then also, at the same time, I have to be authentic to me. So sometimes I do break the family rules a little and I’ll bring something up or talk about something I know is breaking the family rule. But it’s like that careful balance. I think that all in-laws and all families are like that, right? It’s like you’re trying to blend these two worlds and ours is just a little more crunchy because a lot of our family is still evangelical. Jaime’s family is still connected to roots that they love us, but they’re hating the sin still. And you can feel that tension a bit. And that’s kind of the environment we live in. And then, also on top of that, my relationship with each kid has changed drastically. And I think that one of the things that I learned through, kind of, this process is it's my job to initiate an individual relationship with all of these people. It’s not Jaime’s job to build that relationship for me. And so Lauryl and I have a really good relationship and it’s our relationship. And it’s connected to her mom, but it’s different from her mom.

JEN: I was going to ask about that because the kids were all launched. So it would’ve been sort of easy, I think, for you to be like, “I love your relationship with your kids. You should have that.” And you just kind of be the partner that tags along.

JAIME: Yeah. In the background.

JEN: But I’ve watched you and I listen to you talk about the grandkids and Jaime’s kids and stuff. And I know that you love these people and you do have a relationship with them. Was there a point when it was a conscious decision?

CELESTE: It was. I think that some of my own weaknesses is like I really want to be the priority. I want to be chosen. I want to be the person. And when it comes to Jaime and her kids, it’s always that difficult thing of how does this all fit? Who’s the most important here? How do we navigate this? And I think that the answer is, it’s all important and how we navigate that is sometimes Lauryl needs to be the priority for a second. and sometimes I’m the priority for a second. And I know that Lauryl, you didn’t choose me to come into this family. I appeared on the doorstep and this is what you got.

JEN: Like a cat in a basket.

CELESTE: Kind of, yeah. And I know what that’s like because I have step-parents where you’re like, “okay. What’s this.” And I just feel really fortunate that Lauryl was open to having a relationship with me because she didn’t have to. Right? The kids didn’t have to. And Jaime, your mom didn’t have to, right? None of them had too, but they’ve all been like, “Yeah. We’ll make space for you.”

LAURYL: You're gonna make me cry.

JEN: I think that’s really beautiful. There is something Lauryl and Jaime about your relationship that almost makes you seem about the same age-ish because you’re friends, right? You’ve moved, at least from the outside.

LAURYL: It's just funny that you say that because she had me so young, my whole life, it was like, “Who’s the mom?” But you’re talking about something different, totally.

JEN: You look a teeny bit younger, but you’re close. You’re friends.

LAURYL: Right.

JEN: And I think it’s such a good model of moving into adult relationships with your parents and having it be a relationship of equals where mom is telling you something but you don't feel betrayed by your mother. Right? You’re able to look at her as a person.

LAURYL: And I feel very, very lucky because I have a lot of people in my life who do not have any sort of – not only not a relationship, but it’s hard, it’s hard to be around them – they have a hard time being around their mom. They don’t take anything, there’s just no growth and there’s no respect. And so, yeah, I feel very blessed. And then Celeste on top of it, it literally, we joke about she’s not my mom, she’s not my step mom. She’s not that much older than me. There’s jokes about it. But if I had met Celeste, yeah, we connected on a level that was more than my mom’s partner. I have ADHD, so making close friends, for me, is not easy. And me and Celeste have always connected. So I’m very lucky that my mom is my friend, that I know that she has my back no matter what. There’s not this judgment about what I’m doing because there’s been a lot of growth.

JAIME: I would agree with that. I also feel lucky that I have – I feel like I have true friendships with each of my kids.

LAURYL: Which is so crazy because when – and in the beginning of the journey, I remember. I don’t know if it was you who told me or someone else in the family that you were so scared that you weren’t going to see your grandkids or that we were just going to cut you off completely. And just hearing the journey.

JAIME: Yeah. And I think I attribute that to the work that each of us has done individually.

LAURYL: Yeah. For sure.

JAIME: Like you were saying before, Lauryl. We’re able to have hard conversations and take responsibility and take accountability. I can say, “Wow, that really sucked. I’m sorry I did that.” and just leave it at that. And there’s just room for that kind of processing between parent and adult children that I never want to take for granted because I know it’s not – you know, a lot of people don’t have that. I’m super thankful that I do. All my kids are amazing human beings. I know most parents say that. But I feel like that’s also a reason why Celeste has relationships with them because they’re really cool, and they’re funny, and kind, and insightful, and all so different. And you got me started talking about these wonderful human beings. I’m just really thankful that we have genuine relationships and friendships that are safe for hard conversation and the good times. We enjoy each other’s company.

CELESTE: Did you ever imagine, like if you took yourself back to California. And you’re telling your husband that, “I’m gay and I’m leaving.” Did you ever imagine that this is what your life would be like?

JAIME: No. I mean, I had no idea. No. This is better than what I could’ve imagined.

JEN: Especially when you think of all the fear that you were holding at the beginning.

JAIME: Right. Yeah.

JEN: Because those fears are real. They’re not irrational fears. That’s real stuff. I want to thank each of you for coming and sharing. I think this conversation will help our listeners understand better how to parent and how to be friends and possibly even deal – if they’re own parents come out. I just think every time we talk about the queer experience, it opens our minds a little bit. And you guys have offered a brand new angle. So thanks for coming and being vulnerable and talking about hard stuff.

JAIME: Thanks, Jen. Thanks for keeping us on track.

CELESTE: Thanks, Jen.

JEN: Thanks for joining us here In the Den. If you enjoyed this episode, please tell your friends, and take a minute to leave a positive rating and review wherever you listen. Good reviews make us more visible and help us reach more folks who could benefit from listening. And if you’d like to help Mama Dragons in our mission to support, educate, and empower the parents of LGBTQ children, please donate at mamadragons.org or click the donate link in the show notes. For more information on Mama Dragons and the podcast, you can follow us on Instagram or Facebook or visit our website at mamadragons.org.