When Parents Disagree

In a perfect world, all parents would be prepared to welcome news of a queer child with love and affirmation. As we all know, we aren’t there yet, and sometimes one parent is ready to do what has been shown to be best practices while another isn’t. Good and loving parents often have some learning and unlearning to do, and it can be challenging when parents aren’t on the same page. In today’s episode, guest host Wendy VonSosen visits with special guests Brooke Caldwell, Lisa Dame, and Julia Bernards about what to do when parents disagree. 

Special Guest: Brooke Caldwell

With a background in education and administration, Brooke now works in the commercial real estate industry. She was an early member of the Mama Dragons group. Brooke loves sushi, soccer, traveling, and advocating for the LGBTQ+ community and other marginalized groups. She's a social justice warrior and loves big.

Special Guest: Julia Bernards

Julia is a licensed marriage and family therapist, researcher, writer, presenter, and mother. Three of her four children identify as LGBTQ+,  and she passionately loves, accepts, and supports them. Julia's PhD research focused on LDS parents’ process in coming to accept a transgender child. Through that research, Julia was immersed in many families’ sacred stories, and she is dedicated to sharing their words and the understandings that came from them. She has given presentations around the country and loves working with LGBTQ+ individuals and their families in therapy.

Special Guest: Lisa Dame

Lisa has been an ally for the LGBTQ+ community starting in 2013 when her oldest daughter officially came out.  She joined Mama Dragons in 2014 and found her own support and friendship among women with similar life journeys.  She has been on the Board of Mama Dragons for the last 7 years, which continues to be a sustaining part of her advocacy. In 2020, Lisa decided to go back to school to become a Clinical Mental Health Counselor and joined Flourish Therapy as an intern in 2021 and then became an employee as an Associate therapist in 2022. She currently enjoys her life of seeing clients, walking her dog, spending time with family and being outside in nature through hiking, playing sports and gardening.

Links from the Show:

• Join Mama Dragons today at www.mamadragons.org 
• Mama Dragons on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mamadragons 
• Mama Dragons on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/themamadragons/ 

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Transcript

JEN: Hello and welcome to In The Den with Mama Dragons. I’m your host, Jen. This podcast was created to walk and talk with you through the journey of raising happy, healthy, and productive LGBTQ humans. Thanks for listening. We’re glad you’re here.

WENDY: Hi there. Today things are a little different. Jen is out and I’m your host today, Wendy VonSosen. I’m jumping in to help.

In a perfect world, all parents would be prepared to welcome the news of a queer child with love and affirmation.  But we aren’t quite there yet. Sometimes one parent is ready to do what has been shown as best-practices, and the other parent isn’t ready.  Good and loving parents often have some unlearning and relearning to do.  And it can be difficult for everyone when parents aren’t on the same page.  So let’s talk about it a little bit today.  Let’s talk about the best ways to approach a spouse when you have an LGBTQ+ child who is ready for support. We have three guests here with us today!

First up we have Brooke to speak about her personal journey in this situation. With a background in education and administration, working with all types of children, and an early member of the Mama Dragons,  Brooke is now working in the commercial real estate industry. She loves sushi, soccer, traveling and advocating for the LGBTQ+ community and other marginalized groups. She's a social justice warrior and she loves big. Welcome, Brooke!

 BROOKE: Thank you.

 WENDY: And we also have 2 therapists to give us some tips on navigating it all! Lisa has been an ally for the LGBTQ+ community starting in 2013 when her oldest daughter officially came out. She joined Mama Dragons in 2014 and found her own support and friendship among women with similar life journeys. She has been on the Board of Mama Dragons for the last 7 years. She is currently a Clinical Mental Health Counselor with Flourish Therapy. Thanks for being here, Lisa.

LISA: You’re welcome. Happy to be here.

WENDY: And Julia is a licensed marriage and family therapist, researcher, writer, presenter, and mother. Three of her four children identify as LGBTQ+  and she passionately loves, accepts, and supports them. She has given presentations around the country and she loves to work with LGBTQ+ individuals and their families in therapy. Welcome, Julia.

JULIA: Thank you.

WENDY: So I think we’ll start the conversation with you, Brooke. If you could just kind of tell your story about what brought you to this point as a mom and what struggles your family faced.

BROOKE: Absolutely. Like I said, ours is a little different than the typical parents struggling to accept their kid or one parent accepting and the other parent not because, like I said, Miles' dad and I were not married at the time. I’m going to be back a little bit just to kind of let you know how it happened and started. Around the age of 12, I noticed that Miles’ whole persona changed. 

As strange as it may sound, I found myself witnessing some sort of metamorphosis in my own child. He went from being like the happies, always smiling, top of his class, just happy and emotionally stable. And then I watched him just shrink. I got him into therapy right away. Slowly things started coming out. It was little things at first. And the, of course, much more profound things. But he wasn’t improving. Nothing was getting better. I watched him continue to decline. 

So I became pretty desperate and I went on a witch hunt and I'm a little bit embarrassed to admit this because I absolutely believe that children deserve boundaries and privacy even at the age of 12. But I was desperate. So I went in his room and I’m looking around looking for anything, something, I don’t know what I was looking for. But I did stumble across his journal. And I definitely hesitated to open it because I just didn’t want to make him feel like he couldn’t trust me. But, like I said, I was desperate. 

That’s when my world turned upside down reading how much he hated himself, riddled with thoughts of ending his own life and self-harm that was already happening that I didn’t know about. I felt pretty helpless but also determined. So I was going to make sure my child got through this with love and acceptance and just being emotionally happy and healthy again. So that night I approached him and I admitted that I read his journal. He wasn’t upset, though. I think he was relieved. It was a very profound night for me. But I’ll never forget the feelings I felt as I watched him just crumble. And I held him for what seemed like hours just hearing him tell me how he felt like he deserved to die and that he wasn’t worth anything. 

So over the next few weeks we went through a lot of emotions. I went through ups and downs. I even went through a little bit of denial. I’m super ashamed to admit that, but I did. But I did make the firm decision I was going to do whatever I could to help him get through this and know that I loved him and accepted him and we were going to make this work. Everything was going to be okay. The time came when he was ready to tell his dad, his biological dad. And, like I said, we had been divorced for several years. But we had both decided after long talks that it was time to tell him and his dad’s family. 

So together, Miles and I crafted what we thought was the perfect email. I loaded it with as much information as I could. It was written by him and I, but it wasn’t what they wanted to hear. The backlash that I received from them via email just one after another was just horrible with things that they were saying, was horrible. In the email, I did say that he would need both psychiatric care as well as medical care. And I would really love it if they could get on board with that and just support him and love him. In those emails there were words like, “Mom is brainwashing. Munchausen’s syndrome by proxy.” 

So I, a couple of days later, was served with a restraining order and an order to appear in court. So I lawyer-ed up. And a couple of days later we went. And I really won’t go into the details of the court battle because it was long and grueling and pretty rough. The courts had decided that Miles needed to speak for himself so they ordered a guardian ad litem who wasn’t great. But it was long and draining and grueling. But at the end of it, we prevailed. We won. We had to provide the court with so much information and essentially educate the court on Miles and who he was and what he needed to be authentic. But we won. So that was huge. 

And I thought that maybe after that and just hearing the words that the judge spoke to not only me but to the family and to Miles that could be something that his dad’s family could relate to and maybe accept him. But the emotional damage and trauma, it only got worse. They, essentially, just rejected him, wouldn’t really acknowledge him or who he was. And Miles is 21 now and he’s happy with himself. He’s happy with who he is. But he struggles with so much trauma and just abandonment issues. And that’s what I learn when you, as parents, when you don’t accept these kids for who they are. It can ruin them for many, many years. I feel like there’s a light at the end of the tunnel and slowly but surely, he’s healing. But I don’t know that he’ll ever really get over how he’s been treated by his dad and his family. That’s our story.

WENDY: So if you were to do it again, is there anything that you would do differently knowing now how it’s gone so far?

BROOKE: Absolutely not. I would never do anything different because – wait, let me take that back. The denial that we talked about in the beginning. I would take that back. And I think that was just maybe a – I don’t know what that was – but I still feel a lot of shame over that because I’ve watched this kid blossom into who he is. And I would never, ever take back fighting for him because I did. I fought for months. and I couldn’t have written a better email to his family when he came out. So, no. I wouldn’t do anything different.

WENDY: That’s great. I think we all go through things that we said that were wrong or that didn’t quite land right.

BROOKE: Yeah.

WENDY: And it’s a struggle for us as well. We each have a different journey that we go through. So I think that’s totally normal to have those.

BROOKE: Sure.

WENDY: So, do you have any advice for parents that might be going through something similar, knowing now what you went through?

BROOKE: Just never give up on your child. Never stop fighting. I wish I had more advice for how to handle a spouse or another parent who’s not accepting. But I just watched this child essentially lose an entire family. So I felt like I did everything I could and I wish I had advice to give for that. But at the end of the day, it’s going to be up to them to really dig deep and do their own research and figure out a way to love this child. For me it’s, naturally, it’s just like of course you do. But it's not like that for everyone.

WENDY: Unfortunately, right?

BROOKE: Yeah.

WENDY: Well, let’s ask our resident therapists if they have had similar experiences with anyone with spouses that don’t agree and what do you do about that? Lisa, do you have anything?

LISA: I don’t have anything, certainly, as extreme as Brookes. This is probably the worst-case scenario, what you’ve gone through. And I’m so sorry that you went through this and Miles. It’s heartbreaking, really. And I can remember when you first posted pictures of Miles on Mama Dragons and loved seeing how proud you were of him in those early days. And I knew a little bit that it was rough what you were going through. But I had no idea. This really is, I feel like, worst-case scenario of a parent and a whole entire family’s rejection, and the court, and that’s a lot of trauma. That’s a lot of trauma for Miles. So I am so sorry you’ve gone through that. I do not have experience with that. And Julia, maybe does have some more experience with that. So I’ll turn the time to her.

JULIA: So I was just thinking that while I think for you, Brooke, that was worst-case scenario. For Miles, worst-case scenario would’ve been that both of his parents acted like his dad did. So I am so grateful that you were there for him. And that piece of being willing to be supportive and to be brave in that support. And you literally, legally fought to support him is tremendous. And so as we’re talking about how to help a spouse who isn’t supportive – and that can be so heavy on the supporting parent and it can feel overwhelming and maybe hopeless sometimes --  but I would just say, remember how important what you are doing is and that it really does make a big difference.

BROOKE: Well, thank you. I hope so. I will say he has been in the psychiatric ward five times over the years. And he has a lot of trauma that we’re dealing with. And I’ve been accused of coddling him a little bit sometimes. But he struggles and he needs that extra love and support and I wouldn’t change that for anything. The court battle was, like I said, grueling and expensive. But we did hire the best attorney, I think, in the state for the situation. But he is happy. I would say there are things that he’s working through and probably will be working through for many, many years. But he is confident with who he is and he knows that no matter what, I’m here and he can come to me and tell me anything. And he has told me some stuff, trust me. He is a little bit of a stinker sometimes. But I’m proud of him, extremely proud of him, and constantly in awe of his strength. And I remind him daily of it.

JULIA: That resilience, in order to have some of that resilience, we need to know there is some support. And it sounds like, even as there have continued to be a lot of challenges – which of course there just will be challenges. And some kids, mental health is a whole additional thing on top of being queer. But he’s also still around. He has a chance to be resilient because of support.

BROOKE: Absolutely. 100%

WENDY: It’s so important that your kids have a safe place, at least one safe place that they know they can just be themselves without judgment.

BROOKE: Absolutely. And I do have to hand it to my husband because when I was getting all those emails constantly, it was just wearing me down and I didn’t know how to respond. And I was trying to come up with all these educated responses. And not use emotion. But it was starting to wear on me. So he was like, “You know what, I’m taking over. I’m responding.” Because we had to. We couldn’t just ignore them. We had to try to figure this out and try to help them figure this out. But it was awful and I do think Miles is slowly starting to talk to a couple of family members. And there have been like one or two that have reached out to apologize. But that was the end of it. Just an apology, but really also not I want to be in your life again. Let’s rekindle this relationship.” It was just probably an apology to make them feel better about themselves which, hey, I’ll take it at this point. I just want him to hear kind words. But I wish they could actually see him glow and see how happy he is and see how confident he is and just see how great he is. He’s just fabulous. So shame on them.

WENDY: That’s right.

JULIA: I love that you get to see the goodness, the glow, even in the midst of continuing trials and struggles that he is surviving, thriving, growing. That’s so beautiful.

Brooke:: And he’s going back to school this Fall. So I’m happy about that.

JULIA: That’s awesome. My oldest is also trans and also kind of took some breaks from school. But over time, sometimes it just takes kids a little bit longer as they’re getting their feet wet.

BROOKE::You’ve got to push them, for sure. Absolutely.

JULIA: Brooke, one of the things you said that I really appreciated was that your husband, who is not Miles’ biological dad it sounds like, was supportive for you. And typically when we as moms are needing emotional support which we definitely do, our spouse might be the first person that we want to get that from. That’s our attachment figure. And hopefully that’s where we feel safe. And so when that isn’t the case, which if this is an instance where maybe mom is supportive, dad is not supportive something like that – and they’re still married – that can be really hard to not have that emotional support from the person that you expect to have it from or most want to have it from. And so finding other places of support, I mean, you went to Mama Dragons also. Mama Dragons is just an excellent place for us moms . . . 

BROOKE: Incredible.

JULIA: Yeah, to feel like we’ve got that connection and the emotional support that we need because we need it.

BROOKE: Absolutely. I will say, my husband not only was there to support me, but he went blazing into that court battle. He did just as much if not more research than I did. He did. He went in there guns blazing and we were going to win no matter what. He wasn’t going to let us lose. So he has always considered Miles his. He’s his dad. And it’s a very beautiful relationship and I feel so, so lucky that he just came into my life and loved my boys like his own.

LISA: What a beautiful person. That’s wonderful  that you have that support and that Miles has that support. Your whole family has the support from this man that is choosing that and choosing to love you all in that way.

BROOKE: Absolutely.

LISA: I still have the art that Miles created on my wall. And I think about him all the time because it’s right by my front door.

BROOKE: Really. I love that.

LISA: So I think about him almost every day, I think about Miles actually. And just wish him all the best and wish him that  joy and that strength that you and your husband continue to help him to find and that he finds within himself. It’s beautiful.

BROOKE: Absolutely. Thank you for saying that.

WENDY: And hopefully, as time goes by, your extended family or his extended family will come around a little bit more. Because I think I have a trans daughter and every time I’m with her I’m like, I wish people could just know her because it would totally take away the things they might think differently about her. I think it makes a big difference when you know someone and you’re around them and being trans is not what it thought it was.

BROOKE: Absolutely. It’s like a journey for sure.

WENDY: For sure. I have a few scenarios that our Mama Dragons might be facing. And I was hoping that we could just kind of talk about these things and if you don’t know anyone that’s maybe gone through it, if you have any advice about what they could do in this situation, that would be fantastic. So let’s take a scenario where there’s a child that is needing to make some medical decisions that require both parents. And one parent might not be okay with it. What would you suggest they do in that situation?

BROOKE: Is this question for me?

WENDY: It’s for anyone that might have an answer.

BROOKE: So I do feel extremely lucky because I had sole legal custody of Miles. So technically I didn’t need his biological dad’s signature for anything. So I feel grateful in that. I just wish that there was a way that the medical field could see that we don’t need both signatures. If the child has gone through therapy, if they’ve had the amount of time on, let’s say, hormone blockers or whatever and it’s time, I just wish that medical professionals had the right to say, “Look. This is what’s best for the child. As long as mom or dad or whatever will sign, we can go forward.” But I actually don’t know what to do in that case if they’re saying, “No. We have to have both signatures.” Court order.

JULIA: So when there is a parent, one parent who is maybe in denial – because it sounds like for you Brooke, you recognized that brief stage in yourself and then moved past it pretty quickly. Some parents stay in denial for a long , long time. Especially parents who aren’t affirming. And that not believing that this is actually a thing or not for their child, it’s become particularly we’re talking about transgender folks and transitioning and that has become so politicized. And so it involves lots of areas of parents' identity. It can involve religious identity. It can involve family identity, political identity. 

And so when one parent is saying, “No. I’m not going to do this.” Helping them get back to that basic identity of parents particularly like attachment to their child. Ideally they’re seeing what’s going on with your child and be willing to be open to it. But I think maybe giving – as a therapist – giving some additional opportunities in session for example for the child to be able to express what’s going on for them, what their pain has been, and have the parent who maybe is still in denial not ready to hear everything just listen. And if I can just get them to listen and validate – which validate does not mean agree. It doesn’t mean you’re fixing it. it just means you’re hearing it and you’re reflecting back to the kids. 

If there can be some experiences where that kid talks to their parent about, “This is how I’m feeling. This is my experience. These are my fears and my hopes and I feel so sad or hurt when I know you love me and you want the best for me and you’re not understanding what it’s like for me and I really want you to understand.” Stuff like that, I think, can be especially powerful coming from the person who is experiencing it. What do you think, Lisa?

BROOKE: Absolutely.

LISA: I think also parents are experiencing so much fear around all of this. A lot of disinformation and it’s getting harder and it’s getting more complicated. So having a parent able to express themselves also, not just the child but the parent to be able to tap into what their fears are, what their actual resistance is, what are the things that they are worried about? And some of those things might be valid and some of those things might not be, but being able to get those out on the table for everybody and looking at those and understand. None of us do well if we don’t feel understood or heard. And the parent that’s resistant is often feeling misunderstood and not heard. So having that process is hard, uncomfortable, and sometimes that process is best done without the child in the room just to protect them.

BROOKE: I would totally agree. And I would say maybe not just sometimes. I would almost never have the child in the room for that part. I can’t imagine

LISA: Fair. So I think your conversation, Julia, where we have the child in the room expressing their experience, their fears is awesome. And then, yes, the other conversation, the child should not be in the room. I completely agree. So that the parents can – and this is what we learned in Mama Dragons is how important it is for parents to be able to express themselves fully what’s going on with them. And this might – like Brooke said – I might be embarrassed about it later or this might not look so pretty or this doesn’t sound good coming out of my mouth and yet it’s running around in my head and I need to get it out in some way. So, in Mama Dragons, or I don’t know how active Dragon Dads are. But also, if you can have a session with a therapist with the ability to express all things so that those fears can be addressed. I think that can be really helpful for parents to be able to be heard.

JULIA: I so agree. And I think everyone is better,  is more closer to their best self when they’re feeling heard and understood and validated. As a therapist, if this is your spouse it’s so much harder. It’s just so much harder to do this because there’s so much caught up in it. But as a therapist, I know that somebody is going to be more willing to hear additional perspective, additional insight, when they are feeling heard. And until they know that I don’t see them as a bad guy, that I think that they have legitimate reasons for having the concerns they have and that I’m very willing to listen to those and discuss them. Until that happens, it’s very hard to force feed somebody information when they’re feeling full of their own perspectives that haven’t been shared yet. I love that you said get it out all on the table.

BROOKE: I think that you’re right in that. But I also feel like if you have provided them with all the information, you’ve given them every opportunity to be heard and to educate themselves, and they’re still choosing to prevent your child from the care they need, I’m out of here. I’m just taking my child and I’m running. I’m protecting that child. No relationship is that important to me over my child and their actual wellbeing. When you’ve had a child that literally has tried to take their own life and has scars all over their body from self-harm, I’m going to take that child and run. And I know that that might sound terrible. But if you’ve done all the things that you ladies have mentioned about providing them with that, yeah, I’m out.

JULIA: And you know, you had this situation where you and Miles' biological dad were already separated.

BROOKE: Yep.

JULIE: If the difference between the willingness to affirm between two people who are currently still married is so big, there’s a lot there.

BROOKE: It’s complex, for sure.

JULIA: It’s complex. And I just wouldn’t judge before hearing the whole story and knowing all that’s going on for people.

LISA: And I agree. I think Brooke, your situation is in some ways it’s a little more cut-and-dry. It’s like this man is not a daily part of Miles’ life. And but when it is a daily part of a life like alienating, that’s going to be a last resort because that’s just going to end up being more traumatizing for that child to have an adversarial relationship within the home on a continued basis. 

BROOKE: Absolutely. 

LISA: This is hard stuff. This is really, really tough. And you know, we learned this in Mama Dragons and I learned this over and over again. I just tabled at Pride for Flourish. And hearing people’s stories, just like Wendy said, meeting trans people, hearing what their life is like – and sometimes when it’s not your child – gives you a little bit of that space to be able to hear some things that don’t feel so triggering to you. And so to hear and even to see people that have gone through it, are living successfully as a trans person, this is turning out well for them, so any time we can give that kind of opportunity for “would you be willing to listen to a podcast.” I was listening to one by a man named Ben Green who did – I think he did a Ted Talk, a transgender man who’s married. I think he wrote a book about trans joy. And so anything like that, “Would you be willing to listen to a podcast? Would you be willing to a 15 minutes Ted Talk by this human who is a transgender male who is living his full life and how that feels for him?” I think stories, hearing stories like Wendy was saying, meeting someone who’s trans, hearing a story, that maybe can help somebody in a way that information isn’t going to get to them.

JULIA: I totally agree. Stories are so powerful. That shared humanity hearing about people’s pain and experience and thoughts and how it unfolds for people is just so powerful. 

BROOKE: I . . . 

JULIA: Sorry. Go ahead.

BROOKE:I was just going to say, I agree with that. But I also feel like those who are so closed-minded on the topic, they don’t really want to hear those stories. So it’s sometimes hard for them to open up so they can allow those stories to open their heart a little bit if that makes sense. So a lot of time I have found, because there have been a couple of people in the family that have asked me some questions, kindly, over the years. And they actually want information, the science behind it. Is this a thing? How is this a thing? And so we’ve purchased medical journals from Dr. Norman Spack. We actually had a Skype call with him back then and he was going to fly out and testify on Mile’s behalf because he’s such a bad-ass. He is an incredible doctor. And he’s, like,  the transgender doctor. So sometimes I feel like, yes, I love the stories and most people do. But some of those people who are so closed off, that they’re not going to open up to allow those stories to open their heart.

WENDY: I was going to throw out another scenario to you and see if you have any thoughts on this. So let’s imagine that one parent is insisting on some sort of reparative therapy or camp to “fix” the child. What would you suggest in that situation?

BROOKE: Hell No!

LISA: Well, it’s largely illegal, I mean have them read things from the American Psychological Association that has absolutely refuted well that it’s not even not helpful but it is damaging and . . .

BROOKE: Inhumane.

LISA: . . . creates active suicidal ideation in people. So that would be an important thing for them to understand. I would think.

JULIA: If somebody is – so many times our ideas come from as we were growing up and what exposure we had. And reparative therapy used to be a thing until enough research was done that it was, as Lisa said, discovered to be really destructive. And so if somebody is saying that they want their kid to have reparative therapy, I would explore that with them. Where are these ideas coming from? Obviously they’re scared. If they want their child to not be who they are, they’re scared of who their child is. And so that is probably speaking to some earlier conceptualizations of queer folks. But then pointing out the research is such that it’s now illegal. It’s unethical to do reparative therapy.

BROOKE: And inhumane. It’s horrible.

JULIA: Yes. Yes.

LISA: Torture. You’re setting your child up to be tortured is what is the real, yeah.

JULIA: If they had found somebody to give reparative therapy, I would ask for the information so that I could turn them in. Do not mess around with that.

LISA: That’s the right answer.

WENDY: OK. Speaking of inhumane, what if a child comes out and one parent says, “Either you conform to not being queer or you are kicked out of the house?” What happens in that scenario?

BROOKE: I take the child and we just move out. If my spouse tried to kick my queer child out. I would just say, “Okay. Well, then we’re all going.” Because that is so damaging. And I’ve worked with and talked to so many LGBTQ kids who’ve been kicked out and have tried to help them find homes. And it’s just so emotionally damaging. It just breaks their spirits. And I wouldn’t allow a spouse to do that to my child.

JULIA: I would be a little more measured than that, simply because another danger that I see there is the child then thinking that they are responsible for the family falling apart. And so I would work on pursuing some kind of a reconciliation between the parents. Talking to the parent who’s saying they have to be out, then. Because, usually people have a right to be in a house. Legally, if someone is under the age of 18, your parents are required to have you in the home. So there hopefully would be enough wiggle room to start a conversation and see if there could be some softening, explore some of the fears that that parent is having. Again, looking at what are the beliefs that are leading to that really rigid, destructive response. And can we do something to create some flexibility, some additional perspective that’s going to soften that and save the family.

LISA: I have to say, Brooke, you are a bad-ass and I love how you, “That’s it. We’re out.”

BROOKE: That’s just my personality.

LISA: I know. I know. I love that about you.

BROOKe: And I understand the whole, like, family dynamic and breaking up the family. But I think you’re right, Julia, you do want to explore why the parent is feeling this way and can we talk about it and are there other options. But after that, if there aren’t, I will do everything I can to let my child know that you did not break up this family. They did. I chose you. I chose to take you out of that toxic situation because if the parent is to the point where they’re going to kick their child out, that’s toxic behavior. And I don’t want my child around that. But I do like what you said about exploring all the options. And so I would probably, maybe do that for like 10 minutes. And then I would just dip.

WENDY: It’s amazing how fear kind of controls us when our kids come out. So much can be drawn back to fear. Okay. Here’s another scenario that might be a lot more common than the ones I’ve just given you.

JULIA: Yeah, because those were whoppers, Wendy!

WENDY: Let’s try this one. So you have a family that comes to you, one parent is pressuring the child to stay in the closet for whatever reason. What do you do about that? Is that common or is that not?

LISA: We just talked about fear and Julia’s talked about just all the different ways we conceptualize ourselves as humans and the attachments we have to certain religions or politics or even just our own family and so much is deeply ingrained in us. And so it would just have to go back to what is the fear? What is the parent laying over? And what I see – I see this a lot with transgender children. Parents of transgender children, especially when they’re younger, so much fear. And it’s understandable. And they are fearing for their child’s safety. They feel like they’re fearing for their child’s life. The child often, especially when they’re teenagers, they don’t want to be seen as weak and as needing to be, the parent to be afraid for them all of the time.  And so it would be important to have that parent, if you could have that meeting again without the child there, and have the parent explore what is their own fear. What is their own stuff that is coming up right now for them in needing their child to stay hidden? What is that doing for them and explore that possibly? Is this for your child? Is this for you? Those would be the questions that I would want them to, if they have the room, to start to look at and possibly even have an opportunity for their child to express what they would like, what they see for their own self now and in the future and how they see their life unfolding so that the parent can get that map in their brain of this is what my child sees for themselves and desires for themselves. To hear that is going to be important for a parent if they can really hear that.

BROOKE: And I would add to that. I would ask that other parent, how do you think this makes our child feel that you want them to stay in the closet? What are you doing to their self-esteem? You’re essentially making them feel like so many others make them feel in society. You’re making them feel like they need to be hidden. And as parents, we don’t ever want to make our kids feel like they have to hide. And I think I would really try to explore that with my spouse and let he or her understand or think about how damaging that’s going to be to a child if you are forcing them to stay in the closet.

JULIA: I would agree. I think the subtext of the message is really important to explore there.

BROOKE: Absolutely.

JULIA: Because I think it’s possible, those fears that the parents have, and I’ve seen especially with a trans kid, are sometimes very legitimate fears for the child. Like I don’t want my child to be harassed. I don’t want my child to be beat up or misgendered. There’s so many rough things that folks in the trans community are experiencing. And so that’s valid. Those are valid fears and there are other things that that kid is experiencing. And so realizing you can never keep your child 100% safe, that’s just not a thing, and what you can do is let your kid know that you are there for them and that you will walk with them through any rough things that come up, and that you see them as a person, as who they are and you believe in who they are, and you want them to be who they are. Then you can navigate the fears and the dangers together instead of trying to falsely control the universe.

BROOKE: Keeping them in the closet, forcing them to stay in the closet.

JULIA: Yes. Exactly.

LISA: Just it’s so tricky because like a transgender client that I work with who’s young, he is reluctant to report any bullying that happens because he is so fearful of what his parents will take away from him as far as his freedoms. And so they do want to know that he’s safe and also in some ways they prevent him from being able to get help with what is going on with him at times. And, as a therapist, I’m working to navigate that with him so that he can report to me the bullying and we can work on that without him feeling like I’m going to go right to the parents where he feels like they will then restrict him. It’s a very tough, very tough balancing act at times for the transgender child to figure out how to get help, how to be safe, and also not feel like their life is going to be shut down because the parents are so afraid.

WENDY: All right. I’ve got one more for you. What do you do in the case that one parent refuses to use the name and pronouns requested by the child? I know pronouns can be tricky.

LISA: I heard a really funny thing recently about this.

BROOKE: Just keep correcting them. Make them look stupid.

LISA: I heard that you should get a spray bottle that, you know, you would do with cats when they get up on the counter. And the transgender child gets to have the spray bottle and gets to spray the parent when they misgender or use the wrong name, just like with humor. 

BROOKE: That’s too good.

LISA: Not in a punishing way, but everyone would need to agree that this is funny and we’re laughing about this and we’re trying to be better, not in a mean or punishing way. Or also just a swear jar kind of a thing, so then the parents put money in the misgender jar and then the child gets to have that money. Those are a couple of things I heard recently.

JULIA:: I love those.

BROOKE:  I do too. But Wendy said the word reluctant. So, I mean, those would work if a parent was just messing up all the time.

LISA: Yes.

BROOKE: Right.

JULIA: But if a parent’s reluctant, that’s not going to work. That would come across, yeah, I think that would have to be, like you said, Lisa, everyone would have to be bought in. Like we’re trying and this is a learning process. But if they’re reluctant to begin with, you know, I would probably ask some questions like: What does it mean to you to use a different name? Is it possible that there are other times you’ve used a different name with this child? Would it be okay if there’s a nickname? Sometimes parents just need time to wrap their brains around it.

BROOKE: Absolutely.

JULIA: It’s like their whole mental map of this kid is changing and it can feel like calling them something other than who the parent has thought of them as is like a lie. And it just can be hard. And so I think sometimes it can be helpful to have an interim name or something that the parent would feel more comfortable. So we’re changing the name to some degree, but maybe it’s a little neutral or trying out new pronouns one day a week or something like that. And that gives parent’s brains the time to reshape. And I mean, that’s part of learning. That’s what learning is, is our brains reshaping. And so there’s different, If this just doesn’t feel right, I guess it depends on why it doesn’t feel right for the parent. But I would definitely explore that with a parent and help them see what it is that they’re afraid of there, and if it’s – I had a friend of mine who has some gender diverse kids who said, “I just can’t do this. It just feels like a lie.” And it makes sense. It felt like that to me at first too. It felt wrong to call them not the name that I’d always known them by as I’m looking at them. And I just recognized that my brain was doing what brains do and it didn’t mean that it was actually a lie. It meant that I was relearning.

BROOKE: I liked what you said about the whole map that we have planned out for our child essentially just blew up.

JULIA: Yes.

BROOKE: And it does. Everything changes. All the hopes, and plans, and dreams, and things that you thought were going to be, those are gone. Those are thrown out the window almost instantly. So that’s something that parents need to work through and probably even get help. I know that it was really hard for me to give up some of the dreams that I thought were going to be for Miles. But it’s also been a beautiful journey rediscovering what his life will be now. And it’s  beautiful.

LISA: I think you touched into it Brooke. It’s a grief process and so parents need to – it’s helpful if they can acknowledge that this is grief, that they’re going through a loss. They chose that name. They chose that name while they were pregnant, often. And they have a strong affinity and an emotional response inside of their bodies to that name. And now to have that name cut off for them, feels like they have lost something.

BROOKE: Absolutely.

LISA: And so having the space to explore that, express it, and that be an okay part of this process, that be allowed that that feels awful to them is, I think, an important part of this process for so many parents. If they’re just told they’re wrong and they’re not supportive and they’re not affirming, that’s just not doing them any favors. That’s not helpful for these parents who are trying. And the ones that aren’t, there's reasons why as Julia said. And let’s explore those and not make the person a villain and not make them wrong but give them the space to express and understand why they’re blocked, why they are resistant to that.

BROOKE: I agree with that, but I think there has to be a time limit.

LISA: Yes.

BROOKE: These parents, they don’t get to take years to accept their kid and treat them like crap for years and years and years and belittle them and make them stay in the closet. And so I agree, they have earned that. They get to take some time to figure it out and explore things and do research and educate themselves and even get therapy. But at the end of the day, if they’re not going to accept it, they’re not going to accept it. And that child just needs to be somewhere safe. That’s how I feel.

WENDY: Well, I have really enjoyed this conversation. I think it’s going to really help parents who may not be on the same page with their spouse. And I wanted to just end it with, I want you to give advice to these parents that may be on a different page with their spouse. What do you think would be the most helpful thing for them to hear at this point in their journey? Want to start, Julia?

JULIA: Sure. Kind of echoing what we said before which is having emotional support and finding a place where there’s a community can feel really lonely when a kid comes out, especially when a spouse is not affirming. And as humans, we are social and we need community. We need that emotional support and connection. So finding that and then as much as you can, taking care of yourself so that you can be your best self in interacting with the spouse because people are much more likely to listen and to change when they are feeling seen, heard, cared about, when they have some compassion from you. That is a much more likely scenario for them to change than if there’s adversarial vibes going on.

WENDY: I love that. Lisa?

LISA: You know, all of our children have the right to be themselves and have a right to be who they are. They are not extensions of us. They are not mini-me’s. That is not who our children are. And our trans children are the same and no different. This is a way to start to conceptualize how to be a parent is to be supportive and affirming of every single one of our children in the way that they want to be accepted and affirmed and the way that they see themselves. You rejecting those parts of them, drive those parts of themselves underground and then you just will not know those parts of your child. So it just ends up really affecting the type and the level and the closeness of the relationship that you can have with your child. And that’s the reality. Wherever you want to draw that line, that will be up to them to decide then what level of interaction they have with that parent. Children grow up. They remember things that are said. They remember who it felt when they heard certain things from family members. And we make mistakes and we’re allowed to do that. But your level of closeness and ability to know, know your child is dependent on how you see them and on how you allow them to show up and be seen by you.

WENDY: That’s so important. Thank you. And Brooke, from your personal experience, what advice do you have for parents?

BROOKE: I love what Julia and Lisa both said about community. I will say Neca Algood saved my life. She came into my life just a couple of days after Miles came out and then shortly after , introduced me to the Mama Dragons and all the fabulous ladies there. So community is huge. But if you do have a spouse in the house or a parent that is just struggling with it, I would say it’s okay to struggle and I get it. But you still need to treat that kid with kindness. Why don’t we keep those struggles in the bedroom between you and I, and we’ll talk about it and I will do everything I can to make you feel better and I’ll help educate you. And I’ll put you in contact with people who can be your community. It doesn’t even have to be my community. It can be your own community. But I would just beg and plead with them to keep their negative thoughts and feelings just away from the child. It’ll just at least show them that you love them. And please don’t make any comments while you work through these feelings and just love them.

WENDY: I love that. Brooke, thank you for being willing to be on this podcast and sharing about Miles and your journey. And we’re sending all the Mama Dragon love to you and Miles and your family.

BROOKE: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me.

WENDY: And thanks, Julia and Lisa, for being on the podcast and sharing your wisdom with us as well.

JULIA: My pleasure.

LISA: You’re welcome.

WENDY: OK. See you later.

BROOKE: See you later.

LISA: Bye, bye.

JEN: Thanks for joining us In the Den. If you enjoyed this episode, please tell your friends, and take a minute to leave a positive rating or review wherever you listen. Good reviews make us more visible and help us reach more folks who could benefit from listening. And if you’d like to help Mama Dragons in our mission to support, educate, and empower the parents of LGBTQ children, please donate at mamadragons.org or click the donate link in the show notes. For more information on Mama Dragons and the podcast, you can follow us on Instagram or Facebook or visit our website at mamadragons.org.