Navigating Important Family Events

Nothing has the potential to create beautiful memories or deeply hurt feelings quite like family gatherings. Family is central for many of us, but having and supporting an LGBTQ child may open your family up to situations of conflict and discomfort when it comes to family interactions. In this episode of In the Den, Jen talks with therapist Laura Skaggs about possible scenarios that may be encountered, and healthy strategies to navigate interactions and events with family that will help ensure inclusion and support for your LGBTQ child. 

Special Guest: Laura Skaggs

Laura Skaggs is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist who specializes in treating spiritual trauma at the intersection of LGBTQ+ experiences and religion. Laura earned her master’s degree in marriage and family therapy at San Diego State University with an emphasis in LGBTQ+ mental health within conservative religious social contexts. She went on to serve for two years on the board of directors of Affirmation: LGBT+ Mormons, Families, and Friends with a focus on responding to spiritual trauma and suicide prevention. Laura is also the co-creator of CWEERS Empowerment groups: a practice designed to help LGBTQ+ individuals and their supporters confront social discrimination and internalized stigma. Laura is the mother of two daughters and presently sees clients full time in Provo, UT, as part of Flourish Therapy.

Links from the show: 

Flourish Therapy:  https://flourishtherapy.org/ 

Family Acceptance Project: https://lgbtqfamilyacceptance.org/ 

In the Den episode around the Family Acceptance Project: https://inthedenwithmamadragons.buzzsprout.com/2082774/11981957-the-family-acceptance-project-the-impact-of-family-on-lgbtq-individuals 

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Transcript

Jen: Hello and welcome. You are listening to In the Den with Mama Dragons. I’m your host, Jen. This podcast was created out of our desire to walk and talk with you through this journey of raising happy, healthy, and productive LGBTQ humans. We are so happy that you’re here with us. 

Families and communities have rituals and traditions and events.  And all these things come with expectations from various people.  Emotions can run high and hot.  Pictures and long-lasting memories are often formed at these events. Sometimes we cannot meet everyone’s expectations, but we want to have the best chance of preserving important relationships and making space to honor identity.  And we want to give as much room as possible for family and community to feel respected, while holding on to our own essential boundaries. To help us all navigate these often murky waters, we have invited Laura Skaggs to chat with us today.  

Laura Skaggs is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist who specializes in treating spiritual trauma at the intersection of LGBTQ+ experiences and religion. Laura earned her master’s degree in marriage and family therapy at San Diego State University with an emphasis in LGBTQ+ mental health within conservative religious social contexts. Laura is also the co-creator of CWEERS Empowerment groups: a practice designed to help LGBTQ+ individuals and their supporters confront social discrimination and internalized stigma. Laura is the mother of two daughters and presently sees clients full time as part of Flourish Therapy. Welcome Laura! 

LAURA: Thanks for having me, Jen. 

JEN: We are so happy to have you here with us today. I didn’t actually tell you this before, but what I’d like to do for this is pose a bunch of questions to you specifically about family events and get some advice about how to process these conversations. And I’d like to just kind of toss them at you spontaneously.  I have probably too many questions and I’m confident that we will run out of time to answer them all. But how does that sound? 

LAURA: That sounds like the wild west. Let’s get into it. 

JEN: I wanted you to be specifically surprised at the questions even though you’ve probably heard all of them before. So let’s start with a super common dilemma, the same-sex wedding. Weddings have a lot of tradition and a lot of expectation. 

LAURA: They sure do. 

JEN: So let’s start from the couple’s perspective first.  What are the expectations of who needs to be invited to these events and what sort of boundaries can we set for the attendance of the guests?  And, I’m going to add onto that before I let you answer. What sort of information needs to be shared? Like, do we need to include things like “Jeff and Billy are getting married.  Be aware that Jeff will be wearing a gorgeous wedding gown” to help prepare people to be on their best behavior? That was a lot of questions. 

LAURA: So, in the case of a same-sex wedding, what we’re talking about is a day that is first and foremost about two adults celebrating their love for each other. And so because we are potentially speaking on behalf of adults, we have to put how they feel and the messages that they are comfortable with at the center. So the first principle that I would want people to think about is how do I be collaborative with my child and not get ahead of them? Right? So, in terms of putting people on a guest list, we would want to know who our child wants on that guest list, who they feel safe with, who they feel comfortable with. And we would want to know what kind of messaging they are comfortable with. So we don’t want to get ahead. Especially when we’re advocating or speaking on behalf of younger children, the younger someone is, the more we have to step in and make some decisions that they’re not able to make because they’re young. But, when we’re advocating or we’re speaking on behalf of adults, we really, really have to be in alignment with what it is that they feel safe and comfortable with about that day. Especially on the day of a marriage, nobody wants to be stepping into that space feeling like, “Gosh. I wish so-and-so wasn’t here.” Or “I’m afraid of what so-and-so is thinking.” Or “I had to invite this person because otherwise my mom would’ve been upset or my dad would’ve been upset. But really, I feel very uncomfortable.” Nobody wants to feel triggered on their wedding day. 

JEN: So what about the opposite angle?  For those who probably will never listen to this, but maybe we can take the advice to them. Those who simply do not feel like their personal values can allow them to attend the wedding of a queer couple or polyamorous situation. What sort of advice or wisdom do you have for those people who just cannot abide this wedding? 

LAURA: My wish is always that people will keep listening to other people’s stories. If the way that you have come to understand same-sex marriage or same-sex love has really been shaped by some really rejecting or negative ideas, engaging with people’s stories, it’s really hard not to at least find some place in your heart that can celebrate with them. At least like the joy and the love that they’re feeling even if you don’t know how to wrap your head around the marriage or that two people of the same gender are allowed to have a sexual relationship. “Can you just maybe wrap your head around just the joy of finding a person that you’re so compatible with that you love and that you want to spend your life with? Can you celebrate that they have that beautiful companionship?” I think it’s hard not to do that when you listen to people’s stories. Just like when I hear a beautiful story of a heterosexual couple falling in love, “Oh, here’s how we met, here’s what I loved about them, here’s why my day is better when they call or when they come over and I’m so excited to have a life with them. Can you connect to that part even if you don’t know how to connect to the ritual marriage part?” Or the, “I don't know how to connect to celebrating their sexual relationship because my values teach me that that is not OK.”

JEN: All right. I’m sticking with the wedding at first. We’re just going to cover every angle of weddings. What about expectations when you’re potentially the guests at the wedding. Example, inside our groups parents often get messages like this or will ask questions of us like this. “Aunt Susie would like all of my kids to be flower girls.  But one of my children is actually a transgender boy.  How do I support Aunt Susie and my son at the same time?”  How do you suggest families negotiate these sticky things because obviously Susie, it’s her wedding? 

LAURA: Yeah. As a parent, first and foremost, we have this role of protecting our child’s safety. Safety is such a big defining principle and protecting that safety, again, in an age-appropriate, age-relevant kind of way. And so if you have a trans son, they deserve to feel safe and to be who they are no matter where they go. Right? So it wouldn’t be any more than you or I, Jen, I mean, if someone was asking us to show up as a man and we’re not men, it wouldn’t be appropriate. Even though they might be asking very nicely and we most of us come from cultures of niceness. We love being nice. We all want to be nice. 

JEN: Yes. 

LAURA: But the distress and discomfort and just safety and having to pretend to be someone we’re not for someone else, that’s not something that we want to take on. And that wouldn’t be healthy to put on our children either. And so that might be one of those situations that you have to say, “We are all so supportive and excited for your wedding. Also, so-and-so wouldn’t feel comfortable wearing a dress and presenting as female.” And so that’s where it sounds like a conversation depending on how that information went, how they proceed in that conversation. But, again, how we might advocate for a child is really dependent on their age. Sometimes they will tell us exactly what they would wish us to convey. And we want to convey that as kindly and, of course, lovingly. We’re not out to hurt anybody. But sometimes they might be very young, and so we have to step more into that role and be a little more thoughtful about what messages we want to send as a parent. And messages around safety and comfort, those are often part of these kinds of conversations of being able to say, “My child deserves to feel safe on this big day. Everybody deserves to feel welcome as they are for who they are.” And so how do we create some sort of plan that really centers that rather than ask someone to be someone they’re not. 

JEN: While you were talking, I thought of how cute it would be to have the cute little boy be a flower person, also, dressed in his little tuxedo with his sisters, passing out the flowers. There’s lots of compromises, right? 

LAURA: Yeah. Depending on someone’s understanding of, that’s also a part of that dialogue. Maybe they’re just not aware and then when they become aware, there’s some openness and flexibility. Obviously, some people might respond, “Absolutely Not.” And that might be really outside of their understanding of how to integrate that. So there’s a lot of avenues that that can go, as we know. We’ve all run into these really sticky situations where nobody wants to create something escalating and some sort of conflict. But there are a lot of gaps in people’s understanding. Especially, you brought up an issue of gender identity. There’s so many gaps in people’s understanding of gender identity right now. So this is the place where we often have to do the most educating. And it’s kind of an uphill battle. 

JEN: Mom’s responsibility to protect her child sometimes requires a bit of sacrifice. 

LAURA: Yeah. 

JEN: Another one that we see come up a lot in our groups sounds like this, “We would love to invite your whole family to our wedding, but since it is our special day we don’t really want Beth to bring her girlfriend because we’re not okay with them exposing the children to that.”  

LAURA: Ew. That is such an ugly, yucky, unfounded assumption. And that, I would hope, would be a place where a parent would really speak up. 

JEN: It’s sad how common it is. 

LAURA: Yeah. It’s very sad. This would be a place, potentially, where a family member would say, “I understand your concern for children and safety. That’s a concern all parents have. On the other hand, there’s nothing unsafe about so-and-so and her partner and that would be very hurtful for me to ask her and them not to come.” And to be able to say that. Sometimes just saying that, the people will back off. 

JEN: And step back a little bit. 

LAURA: Yeah, just saying, “No, that would not be okay for me to say that. That would be hurtful for me to say that.” Sometimes that’s enough for people to realize. Sometimes that’s not enough. And then you have a choice. It’s like, “I am not going to convey that message to my child. Just so you know.” 

JEN: “We will not be passing that along.” 

LAURA: Yeah. “I won’t be passing that along. That doesn’t feel healthy and safe. That feels harmful to me.“

JEN: It’s so important for us to learn these skills. A lot of us grew up in different cultures where contention wasn’t a value. We were taught to avoid contention at all costs. And so as we navigate, sometimes it can feel like we’re trying to create contention to other people where really, we’re trying to avoid contention by creating situations that are realistic and healthy for everyone. But there’s a learning curve to that. Hopefully conversations like this help. 

LAURA: Yeah. I think, in these conversations we want to assume – they tend to go best when we assume good intent, right? When we assume that even the people who are asking us to sort of participate in the discrimination of our own child, essentially, right? 

JEN: That’s how it feels. 

LAURA: “So-and-so, tell your child that they can’t come. Tell your child they can’t come as themselves. Can you convey that to them?” And we can empathize and we should empathize with our friends and family members who are maybe asking this of us because they’re obviously saying that out of some outdated ideas where they think they are doing something protective for their children. But hopefully that’s an opportunity for us to step in and say, “Gosh. That actually wouldn’t be okay. That would be really hurtful to my child and I will not be comfortable conveying that.”

JEN: I love that idea. “I would not be comfortable conveying that.” I’m going to memorize that line. “I would not be comfortable conveying that.” 

LAURA: “I know them. I know my child. That would hurt them so much.” And just first seeing how they respond to that. If they insist on that, that does put you in a tricky situation, doesn’t it? It’s like, are you now uninvited? Aer you invited but your child is not invited? To kind of see where that conversation evolves. And it’s hard, as a parent, so I have one queer child. And it’s very hard to imagine wanting to be somewhere where your child isn’t welcome. 

JEN: Absolutely. 

LAURA: And I think that’s also something we can say. “Gosh. I want so much to be a part of this beautiful day. But it’s hard to want to be somewhere where my child isn’t welcome.” And just offer that and see how they respond to that. We want to give people as much space to maybe rethink what it is that they’re doing because I think this may be the very first time where they are confronted with how hurtful these messages and ideas are. And maybe this is a moment to reflect. And you being someone who can maybe hold some space for that. 

JEN: I can remember early on in our journey, repeating to my kids over and over, “We’re all invited or none of us are invited. We’re all invited or none of us are invited.” To help my younger kids understand that we wouldn’t be ditching one and leaving him behind. I’m going to leave weddings unless you have any other things that come up a lot in therapy about weddings. 

LAURA: I’m sure we could do a whole episode on weddings and probably a round table of same-sex couples talking about how they navigated their wedding. It could be, if nothing else, it would be fun for a parent. 

JEN: Yeah, it would. 

LAURA: Because there’s a lot of pieces to it for sure. 

JEN: So another important community and family ritual tend to happen around religious milestones in a lot of faiths. So we have, like, Christenings or Catholic rites, or Ordinations and these things are generally designed to bring family together. 

LAURA: Right. 

JEN: But can you talk, first of all, why those things are important to family. But, also, why it can be difficult to expect our queer ones or their immediate families to participate in those spaces? 

LAURA: Yeah. In general, again, we already touched on this in talking about weddings because that is a ritual, right? And often it’s a religious ritual although it can just as often not be religious. But sometimes in these spaces, people are expected to step into these particular rituals from a gendered place. 

JEN: So much about religion is gendered. 

LAURA: Yeah. Often, religion is very – there’s only a gender binary and there’s not a spectrum. And so if you have a child somewhere on that spectrum, the message is there’s not a place for them to participate. So, yeah, like anything, it helps the more we get into some specifics. But any time, as a family, you’re engaging in something together, you want it to be because it’s helping build relationships not diminish someone in the family or contribute to someone feeling left out. So if those principles are guiding our decision making, I think that can help us decide what’s best. 

JEN: And I’d like to acknowledge the number of queer people who have experienced actual trauma inside some of these religious spaces. So, even if the family themselves is amazingly inclusive and warm and friendly, just entering some of those buildings can be a dangerous experience for some queer people who need to be respected in their choice to meet up later for dessert at the family home or going out to dinner or something like that. 

LAURA: Yeah. Absolutely. And so, in that vein, again, checking in with a child. “There’s this thing coming up? How are you feeling about it? What happens when you imagine attending? How does that feel for you?” If our child is telling us “It feels distressing, it feels uncomfortable. I feel like I don’t want to go. I feel like I’m going to be wondering what his person is thinking or I’m worried how I’m going to be treated.” That should matter to us. Even though we’re feeling safe, our child may be having a totally different experience. And we want to honor that. And, again, usually where there is past trauma or potential for trauma, the principle of honoring that person’s agency of, “What do you see as your options?” “Well, I see myself attending and sitting next to so-and-so. Or like you mentioned I see myself joining up later. Or I see myself attending for 10 minutes and then maybe leaving.” Like them potentially naming off some options and us saying, “Okay, out of all those options, what do you feel the best about and how can I support you?” 

JEN: That idea of support kind of leads into my next question. Like kind of to connect those. But is there something we can do – especially those of us with adult children. If our child is 30 and is invited to this family space and you’re trying to help them negotiate that, are there things that we can do to make those events more gentle for those who might feel uncomfortable?

LAURA: Again, without getting into specifics of events, it’s hard to try to troubleshoot things. And I guess that kind of brings me into, a lot of these situations, they do need to be workshopped. So that would be an idea that I would want to plant in people’s heads is like, first and foremost, we do need spaces where we can talk about how hard this is to navigate sometimes. We need to have spaces where we can vent out some of our frustrations and our fears. And then we do need spaces where we can sit and talk about “OK, What options do I have for navigating this and what do I feel best about?” And, where we’re in the role, especially if dealing with adult children or children who are older in age., maybe they’re minors but they’re teenagers essentially. We need to workshop all of that, also, with them because we can’t effectively advocate on their behalf or help them navigate these things if we’re not really attuned to their wishes and what they do and do not feel comfortable with. We might end up doing harm. And so workshopping some of these things in safe spaces, really, ultimately empowers us that when those moments come, we have been able to process our emotions. We’ve been able to listen and hopefully empower the voice of the LGBTQ+ person who we’re wanting to support and protect. And hopefully, everyone can feel, when that day comes, whatever that plan is that we come up with, we can now be present. We can be on the same page. We can let our child know, “If this all goes haywire, just shoot me a text or squeeze my hand and we’ll leave. We have this little backup plan of if it’s all too much, you and me, let’s just get out of there, right?” 

JEN: We like exit strategies. 

LAURA: Yeah. Some exit strategies or if something goes wrong, how will we cope. That can all be talked about as we workshop these situations. And, as a therapist, I’m doing that all the time whether it’s with LGBTQ people or their parents. We’re workshopping situations and we have a plan of how we’re going to navigate it. We process everything that it brings up for us. And then, in the end, we’ve identified, “If it all goes the absolute worst, how am I going to cope? Who am I going to turn to? Where’s my go-to comfort food? At the end of the day, if this is just an awful experience or an experience that I don’t want to engage in or continue, what am I going to do to regroup and get support and still move forward and be okay?” So these are just some principles I’m hoping that will help guide people to think about overall, how do I prepare for these situations beforehand so I can be present when they come and then regroup if they don’t go well. No matter how much we might preplan some of these things, we can’t always predict how they’ll go and we have to know how we’re going to cope and piece ourselves back together and still be okay. 

JEN: Not every relationship is sustainable despite our best efforts. 

LAURA: Gosh. Isn’t that the truth. 

JEN: I wish it were otherwise. 

LAURA: Absolutely. 

JEN: So, holidays. Talk to me about holidays. Holidays are ripe with ambitious expectations. Somehow, I don’t know where we all started doing this. But we expect people to all suddenly become the people that we need them to be. We have these Norman Rockwell visions of Christmas morning or Thanksgiving dinner or whatever. It’s never realistic. It doesn’t look like that for any of us. But every year, it comes around and we have these high hopes. What suggestions do you have for us to work through these family events? Maybe we have Uncle George who thinks he’s hilarious by his occasional homophobic jokes and that awesome transphobic meme he saw the other day and you’re at this family dinner. How do we negotiate that holiday situation when sometimes we don’t even know who’s showing up? 

LAURA: Right. This stuff is so, so tricky. Although sometimes, when somebody maybe in the family is maybe known to say insensitive things, in some ways it does become predictable. 

JEN: We know what to expect from Uncle George. Okay.

LAURA: Okay, we know if so-and-so will be attending, something insensitive might be said. And I would say it really depends on where a queer person is in working through and healing from their trauma. So most queer people, when they grow up, they internalize a lot of negative messages – whether it’s culture, society at large, religious teachings – a lot of negative messages about themselves. And then, as they’re trying to integrate a positive identity, there’s a lot of work in dispelling and expelling those old ideas. And so for some people, if they’re really at a tender early place on their journey and they’re exposed to a situation like that, it can feel like it goes right into an open wound. It can really do damage. And so for someone like that, they might need a lot of boundaries, right? For other people, they might be at a place where their core positive identity around themselves is stronger. And so they can have an experience like that – whereas they still don’t like it – but it’s not going to have the same impact as it would to maybe someone who’s in a more vulnerable place. And so, again, this is where you really want to check in with where your child is at because if a comment like that is really going to be devastating to them and you know you have a family member who says things like that all the time, let’s not create a forum for that. But, at the same time, if you’ve got a kid who’s like, “I don’t care about Uncle so-and-so.” They’re more like, “Whatever” about it. Then that is part of how queer people learn to navigate the world. We are constantly having to decide when to hold ‘em and when to fold ‘em. And parents have to decide with their kids, is it worth going into a space depending on where I’m at or where my kid’s at or not. Sometimes it is worth it to them. “I want to see all my cousins. I want to see everyone else and I’m just going to avoid Uncle so-and-so. And that doesn’t matter to me.” Or other times it’s, “Gosh. Even just seeing him, knowing what he said last year, I just can’t this year. I just don’t want to go.” And you as a parent say, “I hate that that’s where this is at right now, but I respect that and I’m respecting your choices. And you deserve to feel safe.” And we want to convey that to our kids. So it’s not a one-size-fits-all thing. We want to empower where they’re at and be sensitive to where they’re at. And the reality is that LGBTQ people, just like people from other minority groups have had to learn and are in the process of learning, “How do I deal within a world where I may encounter incidences of social discrimination? Is the answer always, I don’t go to that place? Or do I have to pick and choose? Do I know that when I got to a place that I have an ally with me? Is my mom willing to say, ‘If so-and-so says something, I will speak up for you.’” So I’m curious how you’re reacting to all that, Jen. 

JEN: I actually like the way you’re differentiating it because I have two of my own. And one of them thinks it’s hilarious when – I made up the name Uncle George – but Uncle George spouts off his things. My older one thinks it’s hilarious and it doesn’t affect him personally at all. It’s like a comedic act almost from the person who’s being cruel. And then I have another who’s deeply affected and wounded by these things, and is not at all amused, and takes it very personally, and is wounded for days. And so sometimes when we’re negotiating different events, we’re talking to two different kids who have two very, very different responses. 

LAURA: Yeah. 

JEN: It’s interesting. You said something about “Mom’s going to stand up for you or say something.” And that was actually something I wanted to ask about. What is socially acceptable or expected? I know I stand up every time and everybody’s just kind of expecting it because I’ve been loud for a long time. And sometimes my kids will tell me specifically, “Let’s just let it go this time.” And I respect that. But what’s the average curve of how often are we really needing to stand up so that the queer person or any marginalized community doesn’t have to consistently have to stand up for themselves every minute? 

LAURA: I think a baseline of where to start is going back to The Family Acceptance Project. So, anyone who’s not familiar with that, that is a just a fantastically insightful research project where they really looked at how families respond to their LGBTQ youth and how those responses are either affirming and supportive or potentially rejecting, and then how those responses are either corelated either with increases in suicide ideation or decreases in suicide ideation or improved mental health. And so most of us, hopefully, we’re most interested in what helps us decrease suicide ideation, right, and convey acceptance. And one of the things that they identified on that list – and you should go and look at all of it if you’re listening to this podcast. It will be super empowering for you. 

JEN: I’m going to interrupt really fast before because I want you to say that. But Episode 2 of our podcast is actually Kaitlyn Ryan talking about this entire project which I think everyone should listen to. But keep going. 

LAURA: So one of the ways that kids knew and felt that they were accepted, and as an outgrowth had better mental health, was that their parents stood up for them, that they advocated for them, that they took that route of being able to stand up for their child. And so, again, especially when you have a child who’s a minor, but adults too. This isn’t easy for anyone when someone’s willing to essentially take on some of the stigma – that’s what we’re talking about – take on some of the stigma and take on some of the discomfort and say, “Hey. You know what, that thing that you just said, that’s not okay. That was really hurtful. I just want you to know, I’m not okay with that.” Even if my queer child is just so cool as a cucumber about it. For us to say, “Gosh. That’s my kid. And I don’t feel okay with you talking about this like that. Please, please don’t say that anymore.” Us being able to do that not only shows our child that we love them, but you’re modeling how they’re potentially going to learn how to be able to better do that for themselves. So queer people don’t really grow up with a lot of role models often. We’re often raised by straight hetero parents. But we’re still looking to mentors to teach us how to navigate the world as ourselves. And so I think it models something really healthy. “I am deserving of being treated with respect. I am worth speaking up for. I do deserve to feel safe and I do deserve to have dignity.” 

JEN: I like how you specifically said “my kid”. I’ve had multiple instances where somebody will say something, and I say to them, “You get that you’re talking about my kid, right?” And they’re like, “No. No. No. Not him.” And I’m like, “When you’re making these generalized statements, you need to know that it is my kid that you’re talking about that you’re hitting because I think there’s this obscure view that you can talk about the community and inside you have exceptions, right? “All the gay people, except Jaxson. That’s what I meant” kind of energy. And for me, it’s been successful to say, you’re talking about my child. And it’s kind of almost like a little light bulb for them where they’re like, “Oh, I guess that is your kid. I actually like him.” 

LAURA: He counts. My child counts. They are in that body of people, thank you very much. 

JEN: I liked how you included that in the language. Holidays are tricky and weddings can be tricky, and all of these things can be tricky. But I think one area that gets particularly crunchy is funerals. There’s a lot of emotions with all of the things, but funerals might possibly be among the most vulnerable and emotional times for families. And I want to go, again, it seems as I’m saying these out loud and we’re talking about them, it seems like it’s the same question over and over and over, just in a different building. 

LAURA: And sometimes it is. But it’s okay. We need to get into all of these spaces because they tend to bring up so much emotion and they’re worth discussing in and of themselves. And, again, it’s hard when we’re not talking specifics because most things do need to be workshopped. They really do. 

JEN: I’m going to throw you an example. A funeral one that we see often, except different roles, you can replace the role. But the basic gist of it is, “My father just passed away and my mother would like my daughter to participate as one of the pall bearers, but only if she will look like she used to look – like a boy -- so that my mother can feel comfortable.” So we now have a situation where we don’t want to hurt a child and we’re trying to respect our mother’s wishes regarding the funeral of her spouse and all of the emotions she has around that. Give us some of your workshoppie ideas. 

LAURA: I can see how you literally have both sides of the family tree. The generations tugging at both sides. And so I’m feeling a lot of empathy as you’re telling me this story. And I can not speak for that particular young person. But I’m totally uncomfortable – and this I’ll own as my own opinion – I’m totally uncomfortable with anyone having to do anything that they don’t feel healthy, safe, comfortable doing. So, as a parent, you probably have some gauge on how your child would react to that, right? If you know you have a child who would be hurt by that request, like you already know it, you probably don’t even need to ask that child, “Do you want to do this thing that I know could really create all kinds of distress and discomfort and hurt for you?” Again ,someone else asking you to be the messenger of something that is hurtful or discriminatory to your child is something that we probably should say, “No. I don’t want to be the carrier pigeon of harm to my child.” 

JEN: And it happens a lot, right? Even when they’re getting close to 30 because they know it’s a little bit squishy. So they’re going to come to you and then you can negotiate it. 

LAURA: So this is the point where we need to be able to say to people, “I hear what you’re saying. I’m glad that you want them to participate. Unfortunately, I know that if I were to ask them that, that would hurt them so much to be asked to show up as someone else. That’s not something that I’m willing to ask them to do.” 

JEN: That idea of being invited as yourself to participate is often an honor. But the idea of being invited to participate if you pretend to be someone else, seems like an entirely different message. 

LAURA: Right. So then, again, that gives us this moment for the person asking us, they have to pause and think about, “Okay. Do I want to insist on this or them not participating at all? Or do I have any sort of flexibility about what it is that I originally came to you about? Because Jen – or mom, or dad – is not willing to convey this to the child. I know this would be hurtful to ask. I’m not comfortable asking them to do that.” 

JEN: I like that too, because I’m most likely to be like, “Weird request, but I guess I could ask them.” But I like your idea of “I’m not even going to – that one’s just bad. I’m not even asking that one.” 

LAURA: But that is you helping at least beginning to convey to whoever’s asking say, “Gosh. I know this child and that would be such a hurtful thing to ask of them and that would be so uncomfortable to ask them to show up in that way. That’s not something I would be comfortable doing.” 

JEN: I guess if they’re adults, they can ask them themselves. 

LAURA: But we’re letting them know, “Just so you know, I think that is going to hurt them.” 

JEN: Yeah. You’ve warned them in advance. 

LAURA: And so now they, again, they have a choice. But you’re not going to take part in conveying that this is – because just by you asking, there’s a potentially underlying message that you are now wanting them to do this, right? “Grandma wants it. And Mom wants it,” right? How do you say “No” if this is what the message is, this is what we want you to do. So that potentially is sort of carrying through as that string of telephone is occurring. 

JEN: The amount of pressure that would put on me to know that multiple generations wanted me to do something, that’s a lot of pressure. 

LAURA: Most of us who grew up in really traditional – whether it’s conservative constructs or religious contexts – we know what it’s like to feel a lot of familiar pressure about all sorts of things, right? So we can hopefully relate to that on some level. But us being able to go back and to say, “When I imagine them being asked to do that, I just imagine that being really distressing for them. I imagine that being really hurtful to them. I don’t feel comfortable asking them to do that. I don’t think that’s a good idea.” 

JEN: All of the wording of that leaves them with options and I like that. You're stating something clearly. 

LAURA: Yeah. We’re asking them to consider the harm that could be done by continuing to ask for this. We’re not condemning them. 

JEN: I like that. 

LAURA: We’re not judging anybody. We’re helping them to have a window into what it’s like to be our child. If they really understood, they wouldn’t be asking, and that’s the truth. 

JEN: I love that. An opportunity to help them see through a different pair of goggles, experience goggles. I know, even for myself as the mom, just discovering that my kid was queer, I could hear conversations in a way that I had been completely unable to hear before. I imagined that some of these phrases or sentences were damaging until I was able to connect and be personal with the individual who was potentially being hurt by them. And so it’s easy for me to imagine that people are saying things and really just can’t even hear, yet, how painful it might be. And you’re just kind of maybe dropping that little hint to give them a chance to consider that. I like that. 

This is a little bit outside the realm of parenting. But a tricky situation that seems to come up a lot, also, in our groups is communication around funerals with the event itself or in obituaries where maybe all the family wasn’t super affirming and it’s the queer person who’s passed away. So maybe using pronouns and names that the deceased has long ago left behind or referring to your wife – like you’ve passed away and they’re referring to your wife as your friend. Those kinds of situations, and I know there’s legal obligations about who is in charge of what happens. But sometimes that’s not particularly respectful of the individual's identity. So what kind of things are appropriate for friends and family to do in these kinds of tricky situations where there’s really differing beliefs about actually the person who’s passed on. 

LAURA: To me, the starting point is always trying to feel into empathy. And experiences that every single one of us that has had times in our lives where someone told our story in a way that didn’t feel good, or told our story in a way that felt totally incongruent with how we would tell it. 

JEN: That’s such a beautiful way to put that. 

LAURA: And when someone passes on, we are in a very sacred role of trying to tell their story. Not our story, we’re trying to honor their story. And so when I listen to trans people, nonbinary people, LGBT people about their identities or about who they love, these are really important parts of their stories. Especially because they’re often the parts of their stories that they fought really hard to integrate, right, to say, “Gosh, despite all of these other voices and ideas and pressures, this is who I choose to be in the world. This is who I choose to love.” That is a very, it’s a story that’s very consciously chosen and usually hard won. And so those are the principles that I would want at the center of how queer people are talked about when they pass on. Are we telling some story of them that they wouldn’t recognize? Are we telling a story about them that would be hurtful? How are we keeping that sacred trust of telling their story? 

JEN: And what if the family doesn’t? What are some of the options for other people who would like to share that story in a more authentic way? 

LAURA: I’ve seen that happen. I’ve seen separate friend-led, peer-led gatherings that try to do just that. “This family is really struggling to honor these really core parts of this person’s life. But this is how we knew them. And we want to hold that candlelight vigil. We want to hold that graveside meeting and to share those stories and honor that part of them that maybe their family is still struggling to see, accept, honor, value,” and I think that’s incredibly honoring of the queer person. 

JEN: It becomes increasingly tricky in situations where previous to marriage equality or if names haven’t been legally changed because we go back instead of the spouse, the chosen partner, we’re back a generation to people who are trying to heal their own hurt and their own wounds, but didn’t really have that relationship. Those are tricky. And we do see it often. But every once in a while people will talk about protesting a funeral. What do you think about those kinds of things? “We’re all going to show up and protest the funeral because that’s not her name.” 

LAURA: I’m so for empowering people’s agency to really consider what they’re doing and why. There might be a queer person who’s literally said to their friends, “If I die and my family dead-names me, I want you to show up and protest.” 

JEN: I can hear that. I can hear that conversation, absolutely. 

LAURA: I can hear that, too. And in that way, they would be honoring their friend, wouldn’t they? 

JEN: Absolutely. 

LAURA: In other instances, I don't know. Maybe it’s less appropriate. I’m not a one-size-fits-all person. You’re probably noticing that as this conversation goes on. I do want people workshopping things. I do want people saying “Here’s the three options I can see for myself and can you see any others? And, okay, which one feels the best to me? And how can I move forward in a way that honors both my values and my child?” And most of us have values around family. Most of us have values about relationships. Most of us have values about love and kindness and empathy. And we want to be able to have these difficult conversations not by escalating vitriol or conflict if we can help it. That’s not our goal. So most of us want to move forward. “How do I say and do the right thing for my child? And how do I do it in a way that I feel like I’m trying to be as loving, still, as possible? And, at the end of the day, I know, even when I try my best, it might not go the way I want it to. And how do I still be okay?” 

JEN: So I just thought of this. You’ve used the word workshopping several times and conversationally I was right with you. And it just dawned on me that maybe somebody listening does not know what that means. So how do you workshop? Who do you go to? What is it? 

LAURA: I want to use that word in a really informal way, okay? But, essentially, what happens in, say, a Mama Dragons group oftentimes is a form of that workshopping where someone posts a situation. This and this is happening and everyone’s like, “I can totally understand how you feel” and validating the difficulty, right. And someone saying, “I had a similar experience and this is what I ended up doing. But maybe yours is a little bit different. But I feel you.” Right. What’s starting to happen in these moments is, A: you not having to deal with this on your own because it is a lot. Let’s face it. And so you’re able to use other people as a sounding board, as a place to process your emotions because oftentimes these conversations go better if we’re not falling apart inside or we’re not filled with absolute frustration. We’re able to be much more caring and loving if we’ve processed that somewhere else. We don’t have to carry that into the conversation. So, when we workshop things, we’re able to flesh out our emotions, get some validations, think about what avenues we have to move forward and then to really pick one. And, oftentimes in the process, we’re also needing to check in with our kid about all of these things too. “How are you feeling about all of this? Are you feeling angry? Are you feeling hurt? Are you feeling upset? Are you feeling devastated? And what do you see as the possible avenues of how we move forward together? And please know, at every step, I want to support you.” And then you’re looking at those avenues together. Your child’s saying, “Absolutely this way, not that way. Oh, gosh. I just don’t even want a confrontation with so-and-so. I really can’t handle that right now.” And then we say, “Okay.” Or maybe “You can’t handle it but I can handle it. Do you feel comfortable with me handling it?” “Yes, I do. Actually, no. I don’t. No, I don’t, Mom. No, I don’t, Dad. I just need to avoid this situation right now because it’s too much for me with everything else going on in my life.” Right? There’s not a one-size-fits-all when you’re collaborating with your child. 

JEN: Ever. 

LAURA: And so when you’re workshopping with them, you’re looking at those different avenues and we’re trying to empower what feels manageable and safe and healthy for them. There are other times where maybe a family member shows up, says something uncomfortable to you, and you maybe share that with your child or maybe you don’t share that with your child. Maybe you just handle that on your own and then you’re not passing along the hurt. Like, some of the situations that we talked about, “Actually, if you were to convey that to my child or if I was to be the messenger of that, that would feel so awful. I know that would hurt them. And, hurting them would hurt me. And I just don’t feel comfortable with that at all. I’m not sure what we should do in this situation. But I know, if we go that route, it’s just going to be hurtful and I just can’t get on board.” And maybe we never tell our child that that happened because they’re not in a place to hear it and not feel hurt. 

JEN: I love that, in my own experience, queer teens and young adults are amazingly self-perceptive despite often, working also through trauma and having other issues. And it make me wonder if it’s partly related to these conversations where they have to become a little bit more protective and in tune and have chances to converse about it where we maybe make more assumptions with our cisgender heterosexual kids and tell them they’re just going to have to suck it up because that’s just the way Uncle George is, or whatever. I wonder if that’s part of the superpower of our queer teens and young adults that they get a little bit more required of them when it comes to really thinking these things through. 

LAURA: Sure. It’s a point, potentially, of learned and developed resiliency. In terms of other minority groups or vulnerable groups or discriminated-against groups of people, if you are a person of color or you are an immigrant, most likely you have parents, or oftentimes you have parents or at least community who are also a part of that community. And they model how to navigate discrimination. They are modeling how to navigate racism. And they’re modeling, literally, when to hold ‘em and when to fold ‘em. But most of the time, in those communities, what is not done is to just say, “Well, it’s okay.” There’s times that people do discriminatory things and we just kill them with kindness and we’re nice. But the underlying message is still, “What’s happening is wrong and we’re going to try to be loving anyway or we’re just going to leave.” But the underlying message is not that it‘s okay. And I think as parents, that’s something that we need to be thinking about too, is like “Are we teaching our queer kids that discrimination is okay in some of the things that we’re asking them – like water off a duck – it’s no big deal.” Right? Or are we able to say, “I know how Uncle so-and-so is talking is not okay. Let’s talk about the best way to handle this that you’re comfortable with.” Because different personality types are going to want to handle it in different ways. 

JEN: I love all of the phrasing and the different ideas that you’ve given us for these conversations and stuff. I wish we could talk for longer, but we are out of time. I want to tell you how much I appreciate you coming today. I know life is busy and to give me an hour is really generous of you. And hopefully, we all learned a few tips and tricks so that we can swim through these shark-infested waters. 

LAURA: Yeah. I hope it’s helpful. And if there’s any sort of discussion where people discuss the podcast, I’m always happy to follow up and be helpful wherever I can. So let me know. 

JEN: That’s awesome of you. So far, we haven’t had a lot of conversation about – everyone seems to just be listening. But we’ll absolutely let you know. I’m kind of a fan of yours personally, just as a person, and your thoughtful approach to things. So I’m super happy that we got to share this with other people and they could practice these phrases that you’ve given us. 

LAURA: I hope it helps. There’s always, always more, but I hope it helps. 

JEN: Thanks so much for joining us here In The Den. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with your friends. We’d also love it if you could take a minute to leave us a positive rating and review on whatever platform you’re listening to us on. Good reviews make us more visible and help us reach more folks who could benefit from listening. But, review or not, we’re glad you’re here. For more information on Mama Dragons and the podcast, you can visit our website at mamadragons.org or follow us on Instagram or Facebook. And if you’d like to help Mama Dragons in our mission to support, educate, and empower the parents of LGBTQ children, donate at mamadragons.org or click the donate link in the show notes. 

 

Talk to us for a minute about the importance of those for family, but also why it can be difficult to expect our queer loved ones (or their immediate families) to participate.   

How can we maybe make these events a little more gentle for any invitee that might feel uncomfortable inside of these spaces for a wide variety of reasons?

Another area that can get really tricky is funerals.  There is a lot of emotion with all these traditions and family events, but funerals might be among the most vulnerable and emotional.

Let’s start with the gendered roles and expectations that sometimes come.  I’ll phrase it in an example question again, “My father just passed away and my mother would like my daughter to participate as one of the pall bearers, but ONLY if she will look like a boy so that my mother can be comfortable.  How do we negotiate this situation without ruining the family or hurting my child?”

Another tricky situation with funerals tends to be when parents/family want to communicate at  funerals or in obituaries with the name and pronouns that the deceased has long left behind.  What sorts of things are appropriate for other family members or friends to do in these situations?

And… oh no!  Holidays!  Holidays are so ripe with ambitious expectations.  We somehow all manage to expect everyone to suddenly become the people we need them to be so we can have that picture perfect holiday experience!  I think the expectation of a Norman Rockwell Thanksgiving Dinner or Christmas morning is so common.  Although unrealistic.

What suggestions do you have to help us work our way through the holidays and the diversity of family members that might be coming together?

We really appreciate you coming today and helping us learn some tricks and tips to negotiate and navigate these tricky waters.  I am actually a huge fan of yours and your thoughtful approach to all things.

Thank you so much!