Parents Speak Out About Raising Young Trans Children

Jen sits down with a panel of parents of young transgender children to discuss the realities of raising young trans kids in the world today. From real talk about the fears they have for their children’s safety to the surprising and unique joys of raising transgender children to everything in between, this episode provides a behind the scenes glimpse into the lives of young transgender children and the parents who affirm, love, and raise them.

Links from the show: 

Some articles about Dempsey and the Jara Family: 

• https://www.lovewhatmatters.com/she-said-i-am-a-girl-in-my-heart-and-brain-she-had-to-be-physically-restrained-for-haircuts-i-felt-guilty-mom-advocates-for-transgender-daughter-she-blossomed-before-our-eyes/ 
• https://www.them.us/story/mother-trans-daughter-florida-bill-op-ed 
• https://www.mamadragons.org/post/our-trans-parent-journey 
• https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-7673229/Mother-accused-CHILD-ABUSE-raising-daughter-transgender.html 

Transcripts for show episodes can be found here: https://inthedenwithmamadragons.buzzsprout.com/ 

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Transcript

JEN: Hello and welcome. You are listening to In the Den with Mama Dragons. I’m your host, Jen. This podcast was created out of our desire to walk and talk with you through this journey of raising happy, healthy, and productive LGBTQ humans. We are so happy that you’re here with us.

Back in May, we introduced our listeners to ten transgender teens who wanted a chance to share their stories with the world in a way that protected their privacy. We wanted to share the stories of even younger trans kids, but quickly discovered what every teacher during COVID discovered; virtual conversations aren’t a great way to have deep discussions with an elementary school child. So we’re bringing in a few of their parents to talk to us instead. Making space for these parents to articulate the experience of being a child in this situation. These are the families, the children, that are being directly impacted by the national conversation regarding gender. It only seems fair that we would get to know them a little bit. 

My regular disclaimer, of course, these three situations represent only these three children. Every individual has a unique journey. But we can start to see common threads So I’d like to welcome our panelists here today. We have two moms with separate individual trans kids. And we have a married couple raising a trans child together. Jaime and Dennis Jara are the parents of Demsey and their family has been very public with their journey, so we’ll include some links of their work in the show notes. Our other guests will go by T  and N to protect their children a little bit in a tumultuous world.So, can we start by having each of you just tell us the age and gender of your trans child? 

N: My child is 12 year old transgender daughter. And she just graduated sixth grade and will be starting middle school in the fall. 

JEN: Fantastic. 

DENNIS: We have an eleven year old trans daughter who just graduated fifth grade and is going to be attending a school of the arts next school year. So we’re happy about that. 

JEN: Awesome. 

T: My son, I have a transgender son and he will be in fifth grade next year. So he is ten. 

JEN: Awesome. I like that all of the ages are similar. It’ll help us keep track of the trajectory of how things usually go. So, let’s start with you, T, for a minute. How old was your son when he expressed to you that his gender might not be conforming with the language that you guys were already using? 

T: Honestly,  I think I had always, that it had always kind of been there from the beginning. From the time they could articulate words, it was, “No. I not a girl.” He really understood who he was at a very early age. It took me longer to pick up the cues. But I want to say that it was at six years old, was that moment when I was like, “Whoa, there might be really something going on here.”  And I need more help understanding what it was. And it definitely was six. 

JEN: So around age six, you sort of believed him? 

T: Yeah. 

JEN: How difficult was it for you, before then, to believe that this was real? 

T: It wasn’t difficult. I think I just thought it was a phase, you know. He was a tomboy growing up. That’s what the world tells you to think. And I honestly think that’s what I originally thought. And then it wasn’t until, you know, a big moment when I found him with hair clippers and he had taken off the side of his hair because he wanted short hair. He already had short hair, but he wanted the buzz cut like all the boys in school. And he tried to DIY a haircut as we had seen doing COVID and it doesn’t always work out, and had taken it all the way down. And I was like, ‘Hmm, this might really be something more that I have to look into.”

JEN: Beautiful. When did your daughter start to talk about it and how did those early conversations go? 

N: I guess she was about ten when we first started kinda talking about gender. And there was a conversation about not really being a boy. But not immediately saying that they were a girl. Just a, not feeling their boyness. And then, when they were eleven, we started social transitioning first at home and then at school. 

JEN: Back up for me a little bit. 

N: Yeah. Yeah.

JEN: So, when she’s first explaining to you, I’m not feeling like a boy? I don’t think I’m a boy? Where were your thoughts at that early, early stage? 

N: I guess I was somewhat prepared for it. It wasn’t the first time that I had heard that. I had an associate, a friend of a friend, who’s teenage daughter had gone through gender questioning. And so I had already kind of heard parents talking about it. So I already kind of had this idea that it existed. And I was purposefully trying to create an environment in which my child would feel comfortable being gay because there are gay family members in my family. And I just wanted them to know that they were ok. That, whoever they were, they were safe. 

I wasn’t really, I guess, ready for the conversation about gender. That kind of took me a little bit by surprise. But it made sense to some degree. There were certain things that started to kind of click into place. So I was ready for it, I guess you could say. I was ready. I had the language from other parents who had shared their journey with me which is kind of why I’m here. If you don’t know anybody that’s gone through it, it’s so shocking. But for me, it was kind of like, I remember being “Huh? That’s super interesting.” And then telling my husband and having a conversation with him about it. And him also being like, “Wow. I wasn’t really expecting that.” But we skipped a beat, I guess. And then we picked right up. 

JEN: Fantastic. How about Demsey? When did Demsey start talking about it? 

JAIME: It was kind of before she could talk about it really. She just expressed herself. She’s, like, 18 months, we have two older cis-gender boys and so we didn’t have princesses and ponies and all that stuff in the house  because our boys were very typical in liking trains and cars and things like that. So she, even before she could speak, nonverbal, would pick toys out at the store. She only played with girls at pre-k. Just always gravitated towards, you know, the typical girly things. And, we too, thought it was a phase and we were like, “Hey this is cool.” You know, really open-minded. And at the time we were like, “She’ll grow out of it.” 

And also we thought maybe at the time that she was going to be gay. That she was just effeminate and we were fine with that. And so then it just became this persistent, consistent - I mean, getting her out of the house with a polo on, boys clothes, was nightmarish, like horrible temper tantrums. Haircuts were the worst. Going to the barber and you’d have to hold her down which is something that we often say and we very publicly say I’ve cried on many occasions reliving that because I felt guilty. 

I didn’t realize that I was causing so much harm. And that trauma, she would come home and put pajama pants on her head and have the legs come down and that was, to her everything. You know, at three years old, being a girl was hair. And so we kept taking that away from her, not knowing and not understanding. We didn’t know any trans people. So we didn’t know what this was. And we really did, we thought like most parents, that it was a phase and that she would just grow out of it. And then she didn’t. And then we started doing research and phases last six months or less and this was not six months. 

We transitioned from ponies to now I like princesses. But it was always the same. And it was always her expressing her desire to have everything feminine. And then, I think she was about five, when she finally said, “I’m not a boy. I don’t want you to call me a boy. I’m a girl. The doctors made a mistake. I’m a girl in my heart and my brain.” And that, for us, was like, “OK.” To us, it was actually harder, you know, waiting for that moment because it was like, now that we have that moment, now we can go from here. This is somewhere to do. But the, kind of like, waiting for her to tell us, because she wasn’t able to tell us, really, I mean, she didn’t know the word transgender. So it wasn’t something that we taught her. 

So, I mean, the same kind of story along the lines, you don’t really know so you just kind of go with it and you seek help, but it’s really scary because a lot of people don’t want to talk about it. They’re afraid. And, I mean, we were living in Miami at the time and so a lot of – we were dealing with a lot of backlash for this whole gender stereotype, being in Miami and very much ingrained in Hispanic culture which is very much the society down in Miami. So, yeah. It’s something I think people want to hide away and they’re afraid to discuss.

JEN: So you guys all – you already know this. I’m not telling you something you don’t know. But, there’s this idea that teenagers are convinced to be transgender by social media. And then you guys get the slightly worse allegations and accusations, right? That this was your idea. That somehow you thought of it and you forced it on your child against their will, which is so offensive and so harmful for people to say. But we see it and hear it over and over and over again. Do you have experiences with that kind of thing? Do you just roll your eyes at how opposite that is of the reality? Talk to me about that stereotype. 

T: I think that’s one of the really difficult aspects in all of this. Is somehow we forced these kids into this when they have led us on this journey. J has led me on this journey the entire time. He knew the path he was going to take way before I did. It was just, you know, a matter of finding the words. And honestly, the places where we found those words was books. But it’s really hard to hear that you’re doing something wrong for your child by affirming who they are. We just want these kids to grow up and be functional members of society. And it’s hard to hear that. And, especially, I think it’s really hard when it comes from people who have watched you on this journey, not even the strangers. It’s harder for me to take it from people who have been here the whole time. 

DENNIS: Yeah. And I think I want to say, also, I mean, as a guy, and even in Miami where we had a really nice little group of friends, one family that we spend a lot of time with. And had a daughter that was maybe a few weeks younger, I think, than Demsey. And so they, literally, grew up from about eight weeks on. And they had older kids also and we spent a lot of time with them. And so they saw Demsey from the beginning and what, kind of, she was going through also. And were very friendly still with us, but were also very religious. And we’d get questions like, “Well, he asked me, do you beat your kids because that’s what it says in the bible?” And so, it’s like, ok. That’s not the route I was going. I’m not going to beat anything out of my kid. 

But then when Demsey actually decided, “I want you to call me she/her.” crickets from them. They literally and this is years that we were friends. I mean, at least five, six years that we were friends with them and then just all communication just kind of stopped. They were too busy and then they just stopped talking to us. And it’s like, you could see what we were doing. They spent a lot of time with us and saw how we were and what kinds of parents we were also. But it’s because of what they believed in, they all of the sudden they don’t want to talk to us anymore. We should beat it out of our child. This isn’t what we do. We saw a therapist. It wasn’t a decision we came to on our own. We sought out groups. We belong to groups. And Demsey was gender non-conforming for years until we decided – until she told us this is who she is. And so it wasn't something that was easy for us to be like, “OK. Let’s just do it.” 

At the end of the day, this is how she is happy.We saw her, her moods change. She was depressed at four. I mean, you see it. There’s pictures where we have her sitting on the couch with short hair and boy clothing and you could just see the depression in this kid. And then we said we need to talk to somebody and we got a therapist. And we started talking to them. They did play therapy and these things started coming out. And we were like, “This isn’t a phase. This is real. This is who she is and who she knows she is.” 

And when people say, “She’s so young, how could she know that?” I always just simply say, “When did you know you were a boy? Or when did you know you were a girl?” Think about it. As parents, as humans, when did you know? I’ve always known I was a boy. I’ve never had a thought in my head, like, maybe I’m a girl. And so, for a child to vocalize that and say that at such a young age, she knew who she was. It was just we had to follow her lead. 

JAIME: I want to point out, too, to what T said. It is very difficult to have people that you know, that have watched you on the journey versus the strangers. Like we’re very visible. So we get the trolls and the strangers on the internet all the time. And it’s like, “Yeah. Whatever. I don’t know you so it doesn’t matter.” But, to have that family, for example, completely just abandon us and even though they had seen that whole transformation and that whole journey. It was very difficult. And it’s very hard. 

And it’s very hard to hear that you’re abusing your child. People say that we’re abusing our child because we’re just letting them be who they are. DCF has been called and it’s heartbreaking that we’re being accused of these things. And it’s like, “Look. I just want my kid to live. You know, we just want them to get to adulthood. I just want them to have a happy life.” 

DENNIS: And not be a statistic. 

JAIME: And not be a statistic, exactly. 

N: I think for me, I as a parent, have always been somewhat self-conscious. And so I can become overwhelmed by the messaging and begin to doubt myself which is really tragic because I know in my heart I’m a good parent, and that my child is a really strong-willed child. I have always, there’s always been resistance. My husband and I laugh because of how strong-willed they are. So, in those moments where I’m, like, doubting myself like, “Did I somehow create this or whatever?” I’m always remembering just - I can barely make my child do what I want to do. They’ll generally do the opposite. So I’m just being there for them and honoring their journey and trying to help them have the words to describe what they’re experiencing. 

On some level, I don’t know that I’ll ever fully understand. And  I just kind of realize that, just like I wouldn’t know what would it feel like to be a different race. I just wouldn’t have any clue. I think there’s part of my child’s journey that I’m never going to get to access. I’m never going to fully get to understand. But that doesn’t necessarily matter to me as long as I’m there and listening and I want to understand and to be part of it, I feel like I’m being affirming. And that’s what I want more than anything. 

I remember doing the cry-it-out method when they were a baby and how much I hated it and how much it hurt. And afterwards just thinking, that was not right. I didn’t like that and I’m never going to parent for somebody else. I’m going to parent what feels right for me and my child. And that, I’m just having to rely on to just have faith that I’m doing what’s right for my child. 

JEN: So as you guys talk about this. It makes me wonder how, if there are other kids in the house in the family, how this kind of social isolation and judgment from other families, how does that affect the other kids who are just kind of doing their thing?

T: The older kids, I think, sort of understand even more so than J does when they, you know, see the rhetoric that’s going on and hear the rhetoric. I think they absorb that more just because of the age, they understand more. And it’s hard. 

DENNIS: Here we have, she’s got two older brothers, six years older and four years older. And I think, for them, from the beginning they were always just, they knew who she was. It wasn’t like a thing. It never became a thing. They were just used to it and was just like, “OK. It’s fine. It’s who she is.” And they’re also, just, in general very open and welcoming people. Like, they get along with everybody and if they have to speak up, they speak up. They don’t walk out and tell everybody, “Hey, my sister’s trans.” But, they’ll defend her if they need to or if they hear that maybe she’s gotten picked on or somebody said something. And then they’ll be like, “Show me who it is and I’ll take care of it.” You know, they act that tough part, which is great, because, you know, she also needs to see that her brothers have her back. And I think, you know, all siblings fight and things might be said here and there. But, at the end of the day, they get along. 

JAIME: They fight, but that’s never, that’s a non-issue. Like, they never – you know like some kids, like me growing up, fighting with my siblings you say some really nasty stuff. But the trans things is never an issue. That’s never been a thing. They’ve never used that against her. It’s usually, “You’re annoying. You’re spoiled. You’re a baby.” You know, that kind of stuff because she is quite spoiled and she is the baby and she does get a lot of our attention, naturally. So, I think they’re more, I want to say they’re more in the background  because we are so public. They’re kind of like, “Alright Mom, I don’t want to do Pride again for the tenth time this month. Like, we love you but do your thing. Demsey do your thing.” 

But, then when we got to go to the White House, they were like, “We get to go, like, we’re included too? Like, no way, ‘cause it’s usually just Demsey.” So they were really excited because we’re, like, always the last ones to get an invitation. So they are definitely involved but are so totally cool with being typical 15 and 17 year old teenage boys who are like, “Yeah. Whatever. Do your thing and I want to play my video games and stay in my room.” So it’s just never been a thing and I think it’s because Demsey was so young, they’ve only known her as her really. And I think, I often say when we talk to people, our journey looks very different from someone who had a child who came out as a teenager. You know, we didn’t have that switch where you’ve had like many years and that you’ve gone on a journey with your child for all those years as one way, and all these memories are cemented. And then, you know, all the sudden – to a parent sometimes it seems all the sudden that they’ve changed and now you’re looking at a different child in some way. For us, Demsey, because she was so little, it’s a very different experience because you’ve never really – Demsey’s always just been Demsey. And so, we often get that, that the boys are like, “What are the siblings like?” And they don’t know any different. That’s just always who she’s been. 

N: My kiddo, O, is an only child. And all their cousins are younger by a lot. And so I think the only thing I could relate to is their classmates. And we transitioned openly before sixth grade and all of her classmates were very accepting and supportive. And when a teacher accidentally deadnamed her, one of them stood up and said, “That’s not her name.” And another one went over and checked on her and said, “Hey, are you ok?” So, I find the younger generation to be very affirming in general. 

JEN: One of my youngest’s best friends growing up was a girl who had an older sister who was trans. And my kid was the only kid allowed in their house because of this trans sibling. Have you guys found situations where social impacts have affected the whole family because of the journey that you’ve taken? 

JAIME: I mean, for us, Demsey seems like she’s, like upset that she can’t have sleepovers and things. So we try to, like, explain to her that, you know, certain things that maybe her brothers got to do, or other kids get to do, she might not be able to do. And that’s just because she’s special and it’s not a punishment. But it’s just certain things she’s not going to be able to do. And I don’t let her go to anybody else’s house to sleep unless I know the parents really well and kind of the same with us having someone here. I don’t want to open myself up to an issue with another parent. We don’t live in a safe state. So we live in Florida and so there’s a lot of gray areas here with laws and things like that. So we try not to push the envelope with that. And it’s crappy. I mean, it really is. And I feel bad for her because she wants to be like the other eleven year old girls and hang out with her friends and stuff. But it’s just not safe. 

T: I can really relate to that. My kid has been doing sleepovers with their close friends and the parents knew. But I know the parents very well. And I know that my child is safe there. And my child has a new friend that they’re very close to and they really want to do an overnight at their house. We’ve already had the other child at our house for an overnight. But we don’t really know the parents. And they may be totally fine and supportive. But, unless I know them – I don’t want it to be a surprise. I don’t want them to be at somebody else’s house for an overnight and have their parents find out that they’re trans or that that’s when they find out that they're trans and then there’s some big issue, traumatic event. But I feel really bad disallowing my kid to have this overnight with their bestie. They understand. They get our reasoning, but it still is hard for them.

N: I have to agree with, we don’t do overnight sleepovers unless we know the parents really well and they know the situation. And it’s just a safety thing for everybody involved. And especially, you know, for my kid, that’s just the best way to go. And it’s unfortunate. But we don’t do sleepovers anymore. 

JEN: So if I shift a little bit away from these social things and talk about the transition itself. That word, I struggle with in conversation because everybody seems to lump it into one word, “When did you transition?” That means you had the surgery. That’s one thing. “Who is doing surgery on children? It’s so horrible.” Those sorts of things. So your kids are all about the same age right now. Can you each talk about what transition has looked like in your house and for your kid? 

T: Transition for J has been nothing but social to this point. It has been the haircut they finally wanted, the boy shoes that they’ve longed for, the pants that they want, and the graphic tees that they want. And it has been nothing but a social transition. There is no medical intervention at this point for a 10 year old trans boy. Nothing. And there will be nothing for some time, unless we get to the point when there will be – we cross that bridge into puberty and I don’t know what it’s like everywhere. But the gender clinics here, you don’t even make the list until your Tanner Stage 2. And so, until we get to that point, it’s social. 

DENNIS: It’s the same here. It’s just letting the hair grow out and picking some clothes and just, you know, skin care. That’s something she loves. 

JAIME: My wallet doesn’t love it, though. 

DENNIS: Yeah. It’s just the things that she enjoys doing and it has nothing to do with medicine or anything until, obviously, puberty comes and all you hear are these scary words. And that’s what, here, the favorite one is genital mutilation. That’s what you hear all day long. And you’re like, who is doing that to anybody. 

JAIME: No one.

DENNIS: Nobody’s doing that to their child. They can’t do that. 

JAIME: You wouldn’t do that. 

DENNIS: They wouldn’t do that. And so, you know, you keep hearing these words getting thrown around and it makes it sound so scary. But it literally is nothing except for letting hair grow or shorten hair and just change clothing. And that’s really all it comes down to. And so, I mean, there’s nothing outside of the norm here for us. 

N: Yeah. We started with a feminine name and clothes. So they had been voicing feeling like a girl, or being more drawn to girl things. So I took her shopping and my husband and I decided to let her do spring break as her affirmed gender to let her see, and for us to see. And it was really awesome. We knew immediately the joy that she expressed once she was herself. And we immediately switched from questioning, to, “Ok. this is happening.” And, the day after the school year ended, we transitioned to all the parents and – her closest friends already knew – And so really it was just letting the parents know and we started planning for attending school in the fall as her affirmed gender. 

And shortly after that, we did get to Tanner Stage 2. So we are using puberty blockers. And I want to say we’ve had three doses. My husband’s doing all those doctor visits and drives. So I may be wrong. It may be four. But I’m thinking it’s three. We are very mindful that it can impact bone density. So she has very specific directions from her doctor to exercise and take vitamin D. And so just another thing to annoy her about along with brushing teeth and doing homework and practicing her flute. We have to tell her to take her vitamins and go outside and play. 

JEN: That sounds like good advice for most kids. 

N: Right. 

JEN: This national conversation that’s going on, the heated debates, overly dramatic and hateful language that we’re all hearing as adults, how much do your kids, all of them, hear this stuff and how does it impact them, particularly your trans kid? 

T: I, personally, try to keep as much information as possible away from J. So they’re not absorbing all that. But, I mean, with social media and access to the internet, that’s almost impossible. So I do get the occasional, “Hey. Did you see what happened here? Did you hear what they're doing there?” and I’m like, “Yeah. I know and how does that make you feel?” And he has expressed some sort of sadness. He has expressed sadness when it comes to knowing the struggles that kids like him are facing in other states. And it’s hard to see that on my end, to know that they’re struggling with that. But it’s par-for-the-course, almost, right now.

N: My kid knew a lot from a political standpoint. We kind of started talking to her early on about  – when we started researching puberty blockers, it was the first time our state tried to ban gender affirming care. It was like running parallel. And so my husband and I, at that moment, recognized even though it didn’t pass that it was going to come up again. And I needed my daughter to know that I wanted to speak out on her behalf and other trans children. I wanted to fight what was happening in the State House. And so I needed her permission. I needed her to feel comfortable with everything I was going to say. 

And so, as I was generating testimony for these things, I would read it to her and I would get her permission. And so she was very aware from that aspect. But we kind of stopped paying attention to news in the household. We started limiting what other information was getting in and just really making sure to involve her and check in with her as I was doing this and as I was following what was happening in the State House to make sure that she was doing OK and involving her therapist. Her therapist also knew that we intended to fight and to stand our ground here in a state that is very hostile. So we just pulled in support from our family and friends during that time. 

JAIME: Demsey, I think, she knows what’s going on. She talks to reporters a lot. So she gets asked a lot of questions. Generally though, she kind of lives in a bubble. So she has social media, but I control it. So she doesn’t get to see the comments because I, quite frankly, cannot believe sometimes the comments that come out of peoples mouths that they think are directed to an eleven year old. So she’s got limitations on what she can actually see. 

Now, do I think that things filter in, absolutely. She understands that the trans community is under attack. She’s aware. She knows that she’s not going to be able to run track next year. So these are things that, you know, she’s aware of them. She’s a pretty resilient kid, though. She’s really tough. And we always joke around that she’s got self-confidence enough for all of us. And she’s going to need every inch of it because she’s going to need it like armor. 

But, in general, I kind of feel like, as much as she is aware, she’s kind of not. Like, I think she takes in what she can understand at 11, but she’s not living terrified. She’s not hiding under the bed. We won’t allow that because, I mean, at the end of the day, she’s eleven and she just needs to be an eleven year old kid and just live her life. And I don’t want her to be terrified of all these scary lawmakers, which in our state are the enemy right now. Yeah, I mean, she understands, but I don’t think that she has a full grasp of the dire situation that we’re in in the state of Florida. I don’t think that she knows that, not to the extent, anyway, that it is. 

JEN: What is the hardest part for you each, the hardest part of raising a transgender child? 

T: I would have to say it’s knowing what they're facing out in the world. Just knowing that they’re instantly judged. They’re instantly ridiculed by somebody. I’m not saying everyone, but it’s an extra layer of fear if that makes sense, of things that can happen to them  just because of who they are. 

JAIME: I think for us, I mean, it wasn’t the issue of Demsey being trans. It was the idea that she will potentially have a problem fitting in society for the rest of her life. That’s really hard, as a parent, to really think about and to acknowledge about your child. 

DENNIS: I think for me, it’s more, you know, at some point you’re going to have to let them go out and be their own person, right? And, as a parent, you have that instinct of, “I’m always going to protect you no matter what?” I mean, I’m almost 45 years old, and my mom still tells me what I need to be doing and if I’m drinking milk. And it’s like, you know, it doesn’t go away. So, for me it’s like, when do I let go. I don’t want to ‘cause I want to make sure she’s safe.

 But, eventually, she will and what’s out there and who is she going to be with and who’s she going to surround herself with and will she be safe, always. And none of us are? I mean, anybody can go out and get hit by a car and that’s that. But, at the end of the day, it’s like that fear of like, “I just want to make sure that it will be OK and she won’t be a target.” And that’s where we are right now. Everybody’s making this about trans people and it’s not just children. It’s everybody, you know, adults. Even in FLorida, adults can’t get, trans adults can’t get the medication that they need. So, where do you stop? Like, where are we going with this and that’s what makes it, I think, even scarier for me, for us. 

N: I think mine echoes all of yours. It’s trying to parent my child without fear. Trying to, my husband and I talked about, like, we don’t want our child to make decisions about their life based on fear. And so, then, we’re like, then we have to model that. So then we need to make decisions not based on fear. So that’s really hard to do. And there is a lot of fear. I know how much violence trans women in our society, in our world, face and as a parent, it’s mind-numbing to think of your child as a target of that violence. 

So we do things like, she’s taking martial arts because it’s exercise but it’s also self defense. And we don’t let her tell anybody that she’s on puberty blockers. And then there’s just all these things to do to protect her. And I worry that by not totally sharing the reality of it or my fear about what happens to trans people in our world, maybe doesn’t prepare her. But I don’t think she can carry all that. She’s just too young. It’ll have to come later. And, at this point, it’s just waiting for that person in public to, like, figure it out and become hostile. It’s a lot of fear about her basic safety because of how ugly things have gotten, how much anger and hate seems to be out there. 

JEN: I wish our listeners could see the shared empathy and emotion on each of your faces as you’re listening to each other discuss this fear. I’m going to flip-flop to the exact opposite. What’s the most amazing part of raising a trans kid? 

T: I would have to say the most amazing part is – I mean, everything about it is just amazing. But that flip when they transition into who they are, it was like the spark just turned on inside of J. He was immediately, like, the kid that I always knew he was, but it was an inner shine came out. And I see that now, all the time, in just the little, little things he does, like joining the soccer team. Or, “Look at this new haircut I got. Look at my fo-mohawk going on.” And it’s just those little sparks of joy that you see coming out of them. I think that is the best part and I get to be on this journey. And I get to see that. And I can, you can almost just feel it. It radiates joy. 

JAIME: I think for me, so often the conversation is targeted to – you know, they are targets and it’s just a small portion of the population. And I like to kind of flip it around and say like, “I got a magical unicorn. How am I so lucky that I get one percent of the population and I get this magical unicorn in my house live and in person.” I’m so blessed. To me, I just feel like, yeah, this journey is hard, but, like, she’s just such an awesome kid. I mean, that’s incredible, right? I mean, she’s just an incredible kid and being trans is just one facet of who she is. But just all the way around, she’s just, she's just this awesome, sassy, light in the world. And just being in her presence, like, I know I’m biased because I’m her mom, but, like, it’s just so powerful to witness and to share space with. 

DENNIS: Yeah. I agree. I think it’s just, you know, being around her is just always fun. She’s always dancing or singing or doing something that, you’re like, I couldn’t do that at eleven, and the self-confidence.  And I think that’s super important. And it’s great that she has it because of what she will have to face in the future. I mean, I always joke and say that she’s her number one fan. Like, she is the Demsey show all the time. And so, it’s just fun to be around her, you know. And she’s just a loving, kind soul. And of course she’s got her moments like every kid does. But at the end of the day you want them to be happy physically and mentally. And I think that’s where we are right now. And I think, hopefully, that carries on and stays. But, yeah, you know, we just love being around her. And it’s just so much fun to see the changes and how, you know, she’s growing up. 

N: Yeah. I can echo that kind of joy, that lightness of being that comes from them being their authentic self. I think of – I was probably in my 30s when I finally realized something about being your authentic self and how freeing it was. And so I find a lot of joy that she found it early that she didn’t live the closeted life of some of her ancestors. And I do, I think it’s the way she moves in her body is just, it’s beautiful. And I would think, a lot of times, I don’t really think of her as a trans kid. I just think of her as she. And she embodies it. She lives it. She is it. 

I think people don’t realize that. They think it’s somehow putting on an outfit and pretending to be something else. But, in all honesty, they’re putting on an outfit and becoming who they really are. And that outfit helps them to present that to the world. And I remember the first time we went to pick up take out food and the person at the counter used the, I guess, mis-gendered her to her birth sex. But to, O, she just was so giddy. It was so cool. So, yes, the joy of being in that authentic self and having others recognize them as such. 

JAIME: I’ll add that others that recognize you. I remember when Demsey’s hair was really short and she was just growing it out. And we were like on a road trip. And her hair was slicked back. And we went into this random gas station and the guy behind the counter was like, “You look so much like Princess Diana.” And Demsey, that was like, “A Princess!” And then she made me show her every picture of Princess Diana with her hair slicked back. So I absolutely agree. It’s one thing to have your family affirm you and to have that wonderful thing because, you know, not every kid has that. But, then, also to have the outside world affirm you for who you are, it’s priceless. 

JEN: So, something that N mentioned made me think about this. How does being trans impact your kid on a day-to-day basis? Like, what are the things they’re feeling every day as a trans kid? 

JAIME: For us it really doesn’t impact Demsey on a daily basis at all. She just lives her life and she is who she is. I mean, other than –

DENNIS: I think it’s just really for her, sometimes, it’s just having that thought. And obviously she’s not any blockers or anything. It’s just not growing a beard or those are the kinds of things that sort of are kind of in the back of her mind. But not so much because she knows she’s going to get the care that she needs. But, she is just a kid. And she shows it, and she does it, and she talks on the phone with her friends and 

JAIME: Makes tik-tok videos. 

DENNIS: Yeah. I mean, it’s crazy videos that ten second video that takes her all day to make and record. And you’re like, “I don’t have that kind of patience.” And she’s just very creative. And it’s just, being trans is not a thing. It’s not. 

JAIME: It’s just a regular 11 year old. 

DENNIS: Yeah. She’s an 11 year old, very bright, and creative child that’s just so wonderful to watch. 

T: I have to agree. Like, J is just, it’s nothing about the everyday life that affects him. He doesn’t think like, “Hey, I’m a transgender kid” or anything. It’s just, “No, I’m a kid. I’m a boy. I’m going to go play in the dirt.” And J will still play with, you know, the occasional doll or something because we never had those sort of stipulations on gender in our house, these are girl toys, these are boy toys. So, I don’t know, J is just a ten year old boy. 

N: I think for us, if we speak specifically about transness, the ban that went into effect for public schools in our state is something that we’re concerned about and anticipating a struggle with that. But, in generally, I woulndt’ say that she feels trans. Her gender dysphoria has kind of increased with puberty. And I know we spend more on her underwear than we do my own. She gets the best of the best and, if I’ve lost track of laundry and her special underwear are not there, it’s the end of the world. And I kind of get that because it’s almost like putting on your armor. It’s what helps her feel affirmed. 

JEN: As a family, has your family discussed a backup plan, or an exit strategy if things in politics continue to increase in the attack that we’re seeing on trans people legally?

JAIME: For us, of course, our goal is not to leave. All of our children were born and raised here. But we are not native to the state. So all of our family is up north. There’s been a lot of conversations, even recently we were up north and talking about what states are safe havens where we potentially can go. You know, it’s not even limited to just states. I mean, it’s also like talking about, “Do we have to leave the country?” If need be, what does that look like for us? Yeah, difficult. We don’t want to leave, but at some point it might become so hostile that we have to, especially since, you know, we are very much a very public face in Florida. The politicians know who we are. 

So, yeah, it’s scary because in addition to being a mom, I teach US HIstory. And so I understand what persecution looks like. I understand that it wouldn’t just be moving for us. It would be fleeing for our child’s lives, for our lives. It’s disturbing. It’s agonizing, talking about, like even thinking about it right now. And I talk about it all the time. It makes me want to cry because it’s really, we just want to live our lives and have our kid just be happy. 

I don’t really understand why everyone is so upset about it, but it’s the reality of where we are right now in society. Yeah. the exit plans are there whether we have to leave, we’ve even had to discuss transferring custody to a relative to protect her, protect us from having her removed from our home. It’s difficult. It’s difficult because I don’t think any parent, any of us on this call, anybody that’s out there that’s listening should have to be faced with that reality. It’s not fair. It’s not right. It’s traumatizing for all of us, I think. 

N: It’s not the  country that I grew up in. It’s mind boggling to me that my family is having to explore moving to another state for our parental rights and for my child to enjoy their rights, their constitutional rights. It’s surreal sometimes. I’m plan A. I am the one fighting. I’m the one using my voice, standing up in the room, and trying to be that physical boundary to say this is not OK. My husband is plan B. He took a job with a company that is in other states and in a field that would be easy for him to get jobs in other states so that when standing up and fighting is no longer an option then we have a fall-back plan. And we’ve talked with our child about it. 

All three of us, periodically, we check in to say, “Hey, on a scale of one to ten, where are you at? Ten being move, where are you at today?” We’re waiting for the injunction against the ban. That’s the big one, right? Because if the injunction doesn’t happen, then January 1st, I don’t, we have to go out of state for care. And I think we may move regardless. It may just come down to – as a parent I want to fight for her rights because I feel like, if we don’t do that now, that she won’t enjoy them as an adult. Then there’s moments where I feel like, maybe I just need to take her to a place where we don’t have to fight. 

Because, at the same time, she’s a youth and being a teenager is hard. And just existing is hard sometimes, even if you’re not trans. And so maybe it’s not fair for me to keep her here as we fight. Maybe the right thing to do is just take her to a place where she just gets to enjoy being young. And so, yeah, we constantly have this conversation. And, right now, we don’t want to leave our community because our community is amazing and supportive. And if I take her, if we move, and we go to a state where the laws are affirming but we don’t know anybody and we don’t have our network and we don’t have the cadre of trusted adults that we’re currently surrounded by, are we safe? 

The whole concept of safety is, like, taking on new meaning. It’s totally - I never thought that my family would be living this. And my husband feels so betrayed. He’s born and raised in this state and people love my husband. But, you know, he’s accepted as a very much of the state and so he’s like, “This is such a betrayal. Suddenly, just because my kid is trans, suddenly I’m no longer acceptable. You just want me to pack up and get the ‘F” out?” Like, how is that? I’ve always been a good parent. How am I suddenly not a good parent just because my child is trans and I’m trying to do right by them.

T: It’s really, it’s hard to hear these stories in real time being in a state that’s considered safe because you can see it on social media all the time where parents are talking about families and trans adults are talking about how their states have become these places that are hostile for them, for them just to live their lives. And it’s really something to see it in real time. And I know, for one, these effects have already, like families starting to move, trans starting to move has already begun. It’s already happening. 

Um, the gender clinics that are around here have seen mass influxes of patients with – now they have exuberant wait lists. And it’s a lot to take on. And there’s almost a sort of guilt on my end, like, I recognize the privilege of being in a safe state. But it’s almost like I carry this guilt with me of all these other families that I know are just, and trans adults, who are suffering from these policies. And to see people just completely have to uproot their whole lives for just affirming a child, or affirming an adult getting the medical care that they need, it’s a lot. 

JAIME: I was reading something the other day that was saying it’s like this mass migration unlike we haven’t seen in this country for years. And how we’re actually going to have to start setting up refugee resettlements for families, these families with trans kids and families that have a trans person because, I mean, just even thinking of picking up and selling our house and moving from one state to another, the cost of living, jobs are transferable. You know, whatever the factor is, we are privileged that we can, we would be able to find a way to afford to move. But there are so many more families that we know that can’t, that do not have the wealth that we do, the privilege that we have to be able to move. And for me, that’s what hurts me. Yeah. I know it really sucks right now. But we do have the money if we have to move. We don’t want to, but so many families don’t. 

And, also to it, also it’s worth mentioning that Demsey’s lost a lot of her friends to this. Like, they’ve had to move. She’s all excited about going to camp, sleepaway camp, and one of her very best friends that she’s been looking forward to spending the summer with had to move out of state for that reason. And so you’re seeing this mass exodus and it’s not just affecting, you know, your social circle whether it’s economic. I mean, it’s trickling down to these kids are losing their friends. They’re losing their social  circles too. It’s tough. It’s difficult. 

JEN: I know it’s bad form often to compare things to race. But I can’t help but compare it to the great migration. 

JAIME: Absolutely.

JEN: We can see large settlements of racial minority communities because it wasn’t safe for them to live where they were. And I think we’re seeing a lot of that now where trans families, whether the parents are trans or the children are trans, they’re having to relocate in these safe places. And so there’ll be these population booms. 

JAIME: Absolutely. 

N: Well, and for us, it’s complicated to by, we’re  constantly trying to evaluate, by not leaving now, are we – if we wait, are we not going to be able to find a job or a rental because housing is a big issue all over the United States right now. So, you know, there’s even places that require you to have the income three times the rent. And so how do we flee our state and be fully employed to be able to get an apartment. I mean, the logistics of it are overwhelming. 

JAIME: And then, too, if you add in the factors that – you know, we keep saying when is it going to be too late? When are we not going to be able to leave? How bad can it get? Where does it end and it’s like we’re waiting for that tipping point and the history teacher in me is looking at, like, the holocaust. Where it’s like, “We’ll be OK. Let’s go to France. We’ll be safe in France. And then the Nazi’s took over France. And then it was too late. Like, I’m afraid of when we’re going to make that decision, how are we going to make that call? When is too late? When do we leave? And that terrifies me because I don’t know if there’s going to be – nobody’s going to come to our house and go, “You’ve got to leave right now.” You know? I don’t know what that’s going to look like. That terrifies me too because I just don’t know. 

N: I agree with you. Lists. I think of, if we do a name change or if we change her gender on her birth certificate because we can right now, do we end up on a list? Like, it seems really far out at this stage, but because of history, I know it’s not far out. 

JEN: So, I've kept you guys longer than I’m supposed to, but I’m so moved by, particularly the emotion involved with this. We see it over and over again with these families. And I wish the world would take time to get to know these kids. Before I let you go, do each of you have a message for the world. Something you really wish people could understand about trans kids, like a parting thought to leave? 

DENNIS: I have one. I want to say, have those uncomfortable conversations. You know, don’t be afraid to correct somebody or jump in when you hear something that’s just wrong. You know, we’re, and this is even more so for like fathers. I think moms are always fighting for their kids because they always want –, and dad’s want the best for their kids too, but I feel like, you know, right now, and right at this moment, people aren't doing enough. People aren’t saying enough. And people aren’t standing up enough. And if you hear a comment that is so totally off base, jump in and say something. And start that conversation. And it doesn’t need to be an argument. It can be a question. Just start talking about these situations and making it something that’s just being talked about more in a positive way because we work with facts. 

And so, when I have a conversation, I can give some statistics. I can give some number sand I can make people think about things in a different way instead of just hearing it from one news outlet or the same verbiage that’s been used over and over, the same people that are being used to push this agenda of “Trans people are scary humans or they’re scary aliens.” Right? ‘Cause they’re not humans. And that they’re these demons that are out there to take over the world. Like, it’s just gotten to a point where it’s really turned so hateful. And, if you were to ever meet a trans person, pretty much everybody has and they don’t even know. You know, because people, they’re just trying to survive. They’re not out there trying to be noticed. 

JAIME: There is no agenda. 

DENNIS:  There is no agenda for them. Their agenda is to live as who they are, and that’s it, you know. And they’re not out there trying to convert anybody or change anybody or make people do what they don't want to do. It’s just, they want to be accepted. And I think it’s scary where we are. But have those uncomfortable conversations. That’s my message. 

N: I guess I would say I want people to understand that you don’t have to fully understand transness. You don’t have to judge and understand and decipher the decisions that parents of transgender children make. I don’t get involved in your parenting decisions. My child grew up in a cis household surrounded by cis people. And she still is trans. She’s not contagious. You don’t need to understand everything about this to acknowledge that she deserves the same rights as all of her classmates regardless or because of, I don’t know, either way. 

She deserves the same rights. And, as a parent who’s making the sound decisions based on a lot of research and communication with experts, this has been a long, slow, deliberative process. I want you to trust that the person who’s going to make the best decisions about my child’s wellbeing is myself and my husband. Maybe the doctors and therapists, certainly the grandparents, but not the legislatures. They’re not doing this for my child’s well being. I need you to have faith that the parents of trans children are doing what’s right. 

T: I would just have to say to just look at these kids as kids. That’s all. At the end of the day, it’s not about being cisgender or transgender. They’re all just kids. They want to play soccer. They want to paint their nails. And they all think they’re going to become YouTubers. And at the end of the day, they are just kids and just let them be kids. 

JAIME: I think the only thing I would add is, if you’re a parent of a kid that’s questioning who they are, you’re not alone. There are people out there for you. I mean, for me, I think the very first piece I ever wrote about our story was for Mama Dragons and it was in June of 2019. And finding your people is so important and you need it for self care because it’s not easy. It’s not easy to be a parent, period. But there are people that are there for you and will help you and you just need to find them. You’re not alone. 

JEN: My message for the world, I’d kind of like to echo Dennis a little bit. It’s time for cisgender people, for families that don’t have a transgender member, to step in and take some of the pressure off. It’s too late for us to be silent. It’s too late for us to be passive and sit on the sidelines. It’s too much for this minority population and their families to handle on their own. It’s time for us to do something more. And that starts by simply educating ourselves. We can all do that. I want to thank each of you for coming today. I know June is full of adventures and busy activities. And I appreciate you guys helping us in our desire to educate the world a little bit about trans issues and most importantly trans people. So, thank you very much. 

DENNIS: Thank you. 

T: Thank you.

JAIME: Thank you. 

N: Thank you. It’s wonderful to meet you all today. 

T: Same.

JAIME: Same.

N: Take care.

JEN: Thanks so much for joining us here in the den. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with your friends. We’d also love it if you could take a minute to leave us a positive rating and review on whatever platform you’re listening to us on. Good reviews make us more visible and help us reach more folks who could benefit from listening. But, review or not, we’re glad you’re here. For more information on Mama Dragons and the podcast, you can visit our website at mamdragons.org or follow us on Instagram or Facebook. And if you’d like to help Mama Dragons in our mission to support, educate, and empower the parents of LGBTQ children, donate at mamadragons.org or click the donate link in the show notes.