The Importance of Representation

In this week’s insightful episode of In the Den, Jen sits down with award-winning writer, director, and producer Jay Randall to discuss a wide range of topics from Jay’s experiences growing up as a gay kid in a highly religious family in the South in the 90’s to his time working on the massively popular Ru Paul’s Drag Race. Jay and Jen discuss the importance of seeing queer representation in the media and the complexities of rainbow capitalism. 

Special Guest: Jay Randall 

Jay began his career working on both the original and digital programming teams at LOGO, where he contributed to the 27-time Emmy Award winning RuPaul’s Drag Race, or as he likes to call it: the best show on television. 

Currently, he is an associate creative director at Paramount Brand Studio, where he makes work for ad partners across Paramount Global’s vast library of channels and platforms. Jay also serves on the board of Proud, Paramount’s employee resource group that provides support for LGBTQ+ employees and shapes content across the company through a queer lens.

Jay grew up in Mississippi, but now lives in Harlem, NYC. He is a theatre fanatic, laughs all the time and is known amongst his friends for his legendary fried chicken.

Jay is happiest when he is creating.

Links from the show:

Find Jay here: http://jay-randall.squarespace.com/about

Transcript

JEN:   Hello and welcome. You are listening to In the Den with Mama Dragons. I’m your host, Jen. This podcast was created out of our desire to walk and talk with you through this journey of raising happy, healthy, and productive LGBTQ humans. We are so happy that you’re here with us.

I am super excited to talk to our guest today.  I also think our listeners will love this conversation.  We are going to explore a bunch of topics, including our guest’s personal story and success and take a bit of a dive into ideas connected to representation and inclusive media.

  Jay Randall is an award-winning writer, director and producer. He began his career on both the original and digital programming teams at LOGO, where he contributed to the 27-time Emmy Award winning RuPaul’s Drag Race. Or, as he likes to call it: the best show on television. Currently, he is an associate creative director at Paramount Brand Studio, where he makes work for ad partners across Paramount’s Global vast library of channels and platforms. Jay also serves on the board of Proud, Paramount’s employee resource group that provides support for LGBTQ+ employees and shapes content across the company through a queer lens. Jay grew up in Mississippi, but now lives in Harlem, NYC. He is a theater fanatic, laughs all the time and is known amongst his friends for his legendary fried chicken. Jay is happiest when he is creating. Welcome to In the Den, Jay.

JAY:   Oh, my gosh. Thank you. That was such a nice read of that bio. Thanks for the intro.

JEN:   I’ve been really looking forward to our conversation today. But, even more so, after I got your bio last night. You just seem really fun and like you have a lot of experience. So I’m super excited about all of this. Can you start us off by telling us a little bit about your childhood and your history?

JAY:   Sure. Absolutely. Um, like you said, I grew up in Mississippi, in Vicksburg, Mississippi. I’m the youngest of four. And my family is Protestant, specifically Presbyterian. My grandfather was a presbyterian minister and my grandmother’s father, so my great grandfather was a presbyterian minister.

JEN:   So not your average Christians? You guys were in.

JAY:   We were in full. The church that I grew up in, there was a wing of the church named after my grandfather because he’s been the minister there for 33 years, just as long as Jesus was alive, he used to tell ya, when he was alive.

JEN:   I love that.

JAY:   And there, in that wing of the church, there’s a huge portrait of my grandparents. They were in their sixties at the time. A real mid-century kind of feel in front of the house that I grew up in. So we were IN. I was IN the church. In fact, I grew up to be a theater artist. I no longer practice it, but that’s what I trained to do. And I always say I first came to theater through the church, right? I was in church plays all growing up. And I loved the church. It was such a great – and I still do. I still practice in my own way. And I’m a member of a presbyterian church in New York City, actually. But growing up, that was kind of the center of our life. 

I will also say, for Mississippi people ask me a lot, “What was it like growing up there as a queer kid?” And it was hard. It was everything that you think it would be, you know, bullies and small town and rural area. I grew up in the middle of the woods. And I experienced a lot of what you sort of would think would happen there. But I also, my family practices and practiced this brand of Christianity that’s centered in love which is what I believe Christ taught us. And so there was just always this unconditional love. 

And on top of that, my family, if they’re not in the church, their educators. So those are the two forces in my life growing up, which is rare, honestly in Mississippi. No shade on Mississippi. There are plenty of brilliant people who have come from there and that live there and that thrive there. It gets a really bad rap, in fact. But education was just a center of our lives. And so I think that helped down the road when I came out.

JEN:   So, if I understand correctly, you were closeted the entire time you were growing up in Mississippi. And I’m guessing, I should have asked in advance, but I’m guessing that was probably in the 90s, ish.

JAY:   That is correct.

JEN:   So, as a young gay man who was closeted, what was that experience like for you? Were you suppressing all of the time how you were feeling? Or were you, “Yeah. Whatever. I don’t care that much.”

JAY:   Yeah. I think I was definitely suppressing it. I think, if I remember correctly, my first knowledge of my sexual orientation that I can formulate in my mind was around when I was six. And this is anecdotal, but there was this commercial on TV that had a lifeguard and he was drinking a diet cola. And all the women on the beach were like peaked up over their magazines and whatever. And it was supposed to be kind of a racy thing that they were all checking him out, but they were really checking out the cola. Anyway, I sort of remember in that moment . . .

JEN:   I remember that ad.

JAY:   Yeah. I remember feeling, I don’t want to say, as a six year old, that I was having these sexual urges although those things happen naturally to kids of all ages, I think. But I don’t think I had a formulation of, “I’m gay. I’m a gay man.” Right? But, I definitely knew something was different. I always knew something was different about me. And I always feel like my queerness was definitely what it was. But I was in the closet for sure. I did what was expected of me, what I thought people wanted me to be. I had a girlfriend in high school. I had a girlfriend briefly in college. And I definitely sort of  hid that part of me. 

And I thought it was a sin. I prayed that God would take it away from me. I feel like maybe sort of our puberty age, right, when it was really becoming aware that I was having these kinds of thoughts and very natural feelings about my orientation, but that I thought were these kinds of evil, wrong, things to think. So I prayed a lot that it would go away. I struggled with it in that way. And then I hid it really well. And I think, as I think back about, I was in high school in the 90s. And at that time, I sort of look back and I was kind of an overachiever. I did everything. I was in the school musical. I was president of clubs. I was in student council. I was in band and it just went  on and on and on.

JEN:   We hear that so much from closeted kids.

JAY:   It’s true and I think the strategy there is, “Well, if I’m the best, if everybody likes me, then nobody can hate me if they ever find out this horrible thing about me.” Right? And that was sort of, I don’t think I was consciously doing that as I grew in high school. But I definitely can look back, at this point in my life, and really clearly see that that’s what I was doing. I was prom king. And so, it’s interesting, a lot of queer kids get bullied. I did too. But I definitely used that sort of, “I can be the best. If everybody likes me, if I make the best grades, if I’m friends with everybody, if I make everybody laugh, if I can do that then no one, A, will question my sexuality or sexual orientation so I can defer from that truth, and B, if they ever do find out, they’ll still have to love me.

And when I came out, and that might be another answer for another question, but in some ways it worked. I did have a lot of supportive friends and I did receive a lot of support and I felt very lucky about that and fortunate. I still feel, I have friends that were kicked out of their homes around that time. I came out in 1996. Yeah. And so, I do feel, coming from The South, growing up in the very Christian household I grew up in and it being the time that it was, I feel very grateful that that was my journey.

JEN:   This might be really personal. How much did you internalize the negative parts that you were trying to hide? Like, when you were 30, did you have to process that internalized stuff or did you kind of manage to not?

JAY:   I mean, I don’t want to be super graphic, but I had a lot of shame around sex and not even specifically sex, but also that. But sort of the pursuit of finding a partner, or dating, or romance, or any of that. I had a lot of shame around that. And being able to be comfortable in my own skin. I feel like it’s an evolution for all of us as humans, or hopefully it is. That we sort of grow into this feeling more comfortable in our skins every day. But I think as queer people it’s really hard, because we get these signals all the time that we’re not OK or we can get these signals depending on where we are, who we are, the forces outside of us. 

And so it’s impossible not to internalize that. It’s impossible not to. And so I think, yes, absolutely I internalized that. And, again, I think, defended myself against it by sort of overachieving in every other way, right? And that takes a lot of mental energy. It’s very stressful on someone’s spirit and soul, I think. Even if the over achievement is all good, right? It’s still a lot of energy and work and focus that isn’t necessary. And now, I feel like at my age – 45 proudly saying it – I can sort of really breathe into that and be way more comfortable after years and years and years of reprogramming that negative internalization.

JEN:   So you came out shortly after starting college or just sometime in college?

JAY:   Yeah. It was the end of my freshman year of college. And I had come out to some friends at school, you know, sort of testing the waters. And then my mother was – so when I was in junior high we moved to a different town in Mississippi about three hours away. And when I was a freshman in college, my mother moved back to my hometown. 

And so I was in the car with my mom. We were driving from the town where she had lived back to my hometown on this move. And she and I talk all the time. We’re sort of best friends in a lot of ways with some healthy boundaries. But, she, I remember a sort of silence fell upon us and I was like, “This is weird.” I just remember in that moment feeling like something’s up. And then in that moment, I remember thinking, “I wonder if I’ll ever be able to tell her this – that I’m gay – this thing that I had sort of tested out with these friends at school and was sort of trying on as far as the idea of being truthful about it.” And we sat there. And I was sort of thinking. I remember in that moment thinking, “Well, I’ll probably have to be out of college and on my own in case she kicks me out like these friends that I’d had that were kicked out at school from their homes for coming out.” 

And she turned to me and she goes, “So, I’ve been waiting for you to come to me all year and tell me that you’re gay.” And I was like, of course at the time, “Mother, how dare you?” Just mortified. Just the gayest reaction ever, in fact. So, um, and then we got silent again because I didn’t really know what to say because I was a little bit  like, “Is this lady seriously pulling me out of the closet?” But then I was also so grateful that I didn’t have to sort of go through the moment of that with her. And she started to cry and I was like, “Why are you crying?” Oh, no. I said, “How did you know?” That was the first question I asked her. And she said, “I’m your mother. I know everything about you.” And then she said, “I’ve known this is a possibility your whole life.” 

And I think that’s where I’ll loop back to the idea that my mom is really educated. She may not have necessarily wanted it for me, and sort of wasn’t 100% sure. But she knew from the time I was a toddler in some ways that this could be a possibility. And so I think that sort of helped the whole situation greatly. And she started crying and I said, “Why are you crying if you knew this was a possibility?” And she said, “Well, I don’t want your life to be any harder than it’s already gonna be.” And I said, “That is totally fair. But don’t you think it would be the hardest for me to pretend forever that I’m somebody that I’m not.” And she agreed. And then she talked to me about safe sex and I was like, “Stop. That’s enough. You crossed the line. We’re not doing that.”

JEN:   My son got that talk after. OK. The sex talk, we’re starting over. New plan. The previous one no longer applies.

JAY:   Exactly.

JEN:   I don’t know if the listeners can hear, but I’m impressed with – after all of these years, twenty years later – there’s still a lot of emotion for you in that original conversation. And when I think about each of my kids that have come out, it’s similar. We talk about coming out of the closet or bringing people in, and it’s significant and it matters. Those reactions matter and they imprint in a way that the average conversation doesn’t, right?

JAY:   Absolutely. For sure. That’s exactly right. And you know, it’s funny, I’ve told that story a million times since then without the emotion. But I think just saying it in this context and thinking about the people who are listening, it’s very important. That specific conversation was very important and then sort of how you manage it after is very important in the mental health and growth and safety of the person coming out. Or, as you so lovely put it, pulling people in. I love that.

JEN:   Yeah. We try to tell parents all the time, “If you did it wrong, move forward. If you can get it right, fantastic. But if you do it wrong, repair and fix. You don’t have to stay.”

JAY:   That’s right. That’s right.

JEN:   It sounds like your mom nailed it.

 JAY:   She did. I will say that. She really did. But, you know, my best friends – I call them my best lesbians – they are two women that I met in Mississippi in college. I met them independently of each other. And both of them came out around the same time I did. We all sort of came out to each other. Again, testing it out, like not fully, but sort of testing it out on each other. And then I introduced them. They’ve been together ever since. They just celebrated 27 years, 28 years together.

JEN:   YAY!

 JAY:   They have – Oh, my God, I was about to say 14, she turned 15 this week. She’s my God-Daughter. Her name is Nora and she’s an extraordinary kid and I love her so much. Anyway, both Rachel and Leigh were kicked out of their homes when they came out. And so, yeah, their parents definitely did not get it right, for sure. Now, here we are 27 years later and they just all spent three weeks together in Gulf Shores, Alabama, like the extended family, all of the siblings, all of the cousins, all of them. Like, they couldn’t be closer. They couldn’t be, and all of them, Leigh – one of the two women that I’m speaking of is a methodist minister now. Like they’re all just, sort of, they couldn’t be further from that moment. So, I guess the point I’m making is that repair is certainly possible. And we all do the best with the information we have at the time, right?  And then you have to sort of figure out how to do better.

JEN:   And offer a little bit of grace in both directions.

 JAY:   100%.

JEN:   Some kids behave badly before they’re able to come out.

JAY:   That’s absolutely true.

JEN:   Grace in all directions.

JAY:   And I try to say to people who are – not that I deal with this as much – but in my life, as people have come out, and my mom says this a lot. And my mom just had a really good friend at her church, who’s a young guy. He’s going into the ministry. And he came out to her. And she felt very privileged that he shared that information with her. And his mother was having a real – and she’s better but she’s evolving and doing the best she can – but she just has had  a real problem with it. And they just have very differing views on it. And she doesn’t understand it. And my mom said to him and I have said this and I will repeat it here – And this isn’t an original thought. A lot of people say this] but – “You’ve had 19 years, 20 years, 18 years, 15 years, 14 years, however long as a queer person to process this, right? Your parents have had two seconds.” So I love the idea of grace in both directions. I think that really helps a situation.

JEN:   So, if I understand correctly, after college maybe even in college, you kind of started off as an actor. But you’ve moved to different realms of production and television. And I’m really interested in that personal evolution of your career.

JAY:   Yeah. So I did theater my whole life. Like I said, I started doing church plays when I was a kid and then school plays as well. And so that was kind of my thing and I did it all through high school. And then I went to a college in Mississippi that has a pretty good Bachelor of Fine Arts program. I majored in theater and did it. That was sort of my whole world. It was my identity. And then I went on to the American Conservatory Theater in San Francisco which is a conservatory program. They take 16 people, so the whole school, there’s only 3 classes,  so the whole school was like 45-50 people.

JEN:   Wow.

JAY:   It’s really intense actor training, four and five hour acting classes, Saturday rehearsal, just constant. And that was my whole trajectory. My whole life. And I moved to New York and I did it here. I did some television and film. I did some regional theater. I did off broadway. I never made it to “The Broadway '', but I did some theater around New York. I had a theater company. We traveled the world doing, sort of. self-devised work that we created. I taught theater. I taught acting. I worked one-on-one with actors. So it was my whole existence and identity for most of my life. 

I would say somewhere in there, there’s an overlap where I started to get involved in production. I worked for an event production company that was experiential and did a lot of weddings and bar mitzvahs and then huge product launches and things like that. And I was part of the production team there. I was still acting then. And then, at some point, really made a step in the direction to be, I sort of want to figure out a way to be creative more consistently. Acting is a very difficult career, even when you’re super successful at it. Finding any consistency is virtually impossible. And I was OK with that until I wasn’t anymore. 

A friend of mine got me a job. He had sort of been through the same journey. He was an actor and made his way into television. So a friend of mine got me a job as an executive assistant. And from there, that executive made me a production assistant for the creative team at LOGO. And then I started sort of writing and producing content there. I was an associate producer, and then I was a junior writer, and then our copywriter. And then I moved to the division of our company, it’s this really dry, but I love it, kind of niche]. I work for Paramount Advertising. So, the company LOGO was part of Icom, then Icom became CBS, now, we’re Paramount Global. And, at LOGO is where I started working on Drag Race, which people always want to talk about or sometimes are excited by.

 And then I moved over to this advertising division. So I make branded content. So, essentially we make commercials. They’re very sophisticated and they use our talent, our show talent from across all our channels, and we use, kind of, our show voices to sell these products. We make these commercials in the world of our shows, in the world of our character. So I still work with the Drag Race Queens all the time. I’m working on a project right now that’s going to involve a lot of those queens and contestants. But I make stuff for MTV, VH1, I mean, the list, Paramount, Paramount Plus, the list goes on and on.

JEN:   So, because I’m not in this world, when you say branded content, that means commercials?

JAY:   Yeah. Essentially commercials.

JEN:   Or is it bigger?

 JAY:   Yeah. That is the shorthand I could use to describe it. Yeah. I make commercials. For instance, I made a spot for a sparkling water brand this season of RuPaul’s Drag Race that starred a former winner that is also a legend amongst the fans. And it was her drinking the soda and being silly about – it was this really creative funny spot and it aired all season long during RuPaul’s Drag Race. Yeah, so it’s a commercial, but it’s not just a commercial that’s running everywhere. It’s a targeted thing that uses our voice, our company’s, like brands come to us and they say we want to spend money, but we want to reach this specific audience. And we say, “Oh, this is what will do for you.” You know what I mean?

JEN:   Okay.

JAY:   Anyway, it’s very inside baseball and very niche and very probably dry. But essentially advertising is what I do now. I’m a creative director at Paramount Brand Studio. So I pitch the content, I write the content, I direct the shoots, and I oversee the edits of all of that stuff.

JEN:   So you worked at RuPaul’s Drag Race three seasons.

JAY:   It was seasons four, five, six and seven. So four seasons.

JEN:   Oh, four seasons. I’m sorry.

JAY:   No worries.

JEN: I counted badly.  A lot of our families love that show. A lot of our listeners are going to be super familiar because their kids are obsessed with it or whatever. But like you said, a lot of people probably ask you about that. And I don’t want to take a super-deep dive into that show specifically. But I have one question that’s eating at me?

 JAY:   Please, I’m an open book. Give it to me.

JEN:   So, I’m the outsider, so this is probably a question of ignorance. And you’ll have to forgive me if it’s remotely offensive. I don’t mean it that way at all. But I’m curious about the connection between drag and lip-syncing. And why is that a thing? Why is lip-syncing and drag so connected? And did RuPaul’s Drag Race influence that connection in the world of communities and small town drag and those kind of things. What is up with the lip-syncing?.

JAY:   I don’t know that I can give you a – I can give you my thoughts on that. I don’t know that. I don’t know if I have a definitive answer. I think part of it comes from the art of drag is sort of mimicking, it’s sort of – the way I see it, it’s paying tribute to women. And I think queer men, gay men specifically and trans people who sort of make up the formative and drag communities before we had Drag Race or before it was so mainstream. I think they were sort of celebrating women, but also the idea that gender is fluid and that we are all sort of part of the same humanity. 

Now, the lip-sync element comes in as just part of the performance of it all, the pageantry of it all. And there is a thing that happens with queer men. It’s kind of a trope, or the queer community in general I should say, where we all have our Diva’s, like our ladies. Some people are Judy fans. I’m a Dolly Parton fan. She is my hero. People love Beyonce, Madonna, right? There are these strong female entertainers, and sort of a big part of early drag was female impersonation. And listeners can’t see me, but I’m doing air quotes around that. 

And I think, again, part of that was impersonating these larger-than-life personalities in pop and – you know Barbara Strisand. And any sort of singer that gives you that vibe. I think that is maybe where it came in and sort of extending the illusion that I’m this woman. I’m going to sing for you, but if I sing using my natural voice, you’re going to know that I'm a man. So, instead, I’m going to lip-sync to this incredible singer. I think that’s probably how it evolved in that way.

JEN: Okay.

JAY:   That would be my best guess, not guess, educated thought as someone who has worked on the show and loves drag and is a huge fan of drag. And I see it all the time in New York. And when I go on vacation, I go to drag shows if I can. And so that’d sort of be my thought. And I bet I’m not far off. There may be other influences there that I don’t know about or that I’m not mentioning. But that would be my thoughts on it.

JEN:  I like that. I resonated with everything you said and I find it so fascinating this connection. And voice tone makes a ton of sense.

JAY:   Yeah. For sure. There are queens who have, they’re performers that have wonderful singing voices and that do . . .

JEN:   Yeah. They sing live and I love it.

JAY:   They totally sing live, for sure. It’s amazing for sure. I actually, a good friend of mine, tours the world on Virgin Cruises. She’s the Diva on one of the ships. And he has a musical theater degree and an incredible range. And part of his schtick as a queen is that he can do the live stuff.

JEN:    I love, actually, the live performances a lot, just in general. So I’m always happy when it’s live music. So, before I move past drag race. Is there anything that I should’ve asked that you want to share that’s like the nitty-gritty that’s going to make people excited to get this behind-the-scenes look.

JAY:   Um, nitty-gritty. I mean, there’s not much I can really share openly about production because the show team does not like us to do that. But I will say, I always make the joke that it’s the best show on television, which you noted in my bio or intro. And it’s kind of a joke, but I also think, relevant to this conversation we’re having, I sort of say that with some truth. There’s some truth to it. 

There’s a real dignity to the show. If you watch it, it’s a reality competition, like that is the category it is. And, as you know, there’s a lot of trashy reality TV and a lot of trashy reality competition TV. And there’s a real dignity to what Ru has done with that show. And outside the artistry and the humor and etcetera, etcetera that you can go on creatively about it. I think the visibility of it is so important and that it speaks to a community. Not meaning that every queer person is a drag race fan. But there is something about the spirit of community that the show captures that I think is really, really important.

JEN:   I like, when I watch, I like the evolution of the individuals.

 JAY:   Yeah. you mean, like the seasons. Like as they grow through the season.

JEN:   Across the whole, is it like 13 seasons now. Across the whole thing, who they’re getting from now until 13 seasons ago. And also each individual character. We talked about some of that internalized messaging stuff that people acquire when they’re closeted and younger. And you can almost watch them process a little bit of it when they’re in this super affirming, super celebratory space.

JAY:   Absolutely.

JEN:   So you can, I don’t know if it’s the mom in me, but it’s almost like watching these little babies grow up across the season and just own themselves by the end. I love it.

JAY:   I agree one million percent. It’s such a delight. And it’s so funny, I used to interview them before they started, before their season aired, I used to do some content where I would interview them every year. And then you would interview them after the season’s over, like at the finale. And just to sort of see, yeah, exactly what you said. I think they process a lot of that when they’re in that space on the show. And then I think it continues as they sort of see it aire. Do you know what I mean?

JEN:   Yeah.

JAY:   I think it’s all a big part of their evolution and it is delightful for sure.

JEN:   And RuPaul seems to embrace that.

JAY:   He does.

JEN:   Like on some reality shows they’re trying to encourage people to be mean to each other and they’re trying to really hurt your feelings and see if they can get you to cry when you get kicked off or whatever.

JAY:   Exactly.     

JEN:   And RuPaul gives these amazing inspirational exit speeches.

JAY:   A thousand percent. And that is the exact spirit that I’m talking about. There’s something different about it that feels very – everybody is celebrated in some way, everybody is even though laughter or even when those queens do sort of verge into a place where they’re bickering or the sort of typical drama that you get on stupid reality TV, they always come back together. They always end up loving each other. They all come off the show and say, “We’re sisters for life.” Right? And that does not happen on a lot of reality TV.

JEN:   No. Not a lot of evolution in a lot ofreality TV.

 JAY:   For sure.

JEN:   So, talk to me about what I understand you’re doing now. You are working for an organization, like we talked about the career part of what you’re doing now. But like this organization called Proud. What is it? What are you doing?

JAY:   OK. So, at Paramount Global, we have many employee resource groups. There is The Beat that is for black and brown employees. There is SOMOS that is for latina. There is The Parenthood who is for new parents. There’s a veterans ERG. There is womanhood. So there are these groups that, in this huge global company I think it’s, A, sort of easy to feel lost in that. and, B, it’s easy to sort of end up on a team where you don’t see anybody else like you or know anyone else like you. So, that’s a big part of it. These employee resource groups exist to kind of manage and cultivate culture around each of these specific identities. 

I’m on the board. I’ve been on it for five years. And so we, throughout the year, plan programming for our constituents across the company. We just finished, June was Pride Month and that is always our busiest time of the year. We have panels sort of discussing state-of-affairs for queer people, you know, how to travel as a queer person. This is the sort of programming we went through this year which is why it’s fresh on my mind. But we do cookie breaks where people can just come and have a cookie and see other queer people at work.

JEN:   Okay. That’s the one I want.

JAY:   Yeah. Exactly. Those are the fan favorites. I’m always like, “Ya’ll we should plan another cookie break.” We have an office of global inclusion that governs all these employee resource groups. And those are the people that are sort of staffed at our company to monitor and cultivate culture around identity and making sure everybody feels seen and heard. And we do trainings. There’s all kinds of programming that we do. We also serve as a steering commit for our corporate giving. So we sort of meet all the time about organizations we can help funnel money into. 

We service a consultancy group for content across the company. So anything that’s made anywhere, any TV show, any piece of branded content, any promo, anything that any team is like, we’d like to have some actual queer people look at this”, they send it our way and we kind of review it and we weigh in. And if we don’t have the answers then we go to the internet. We find, we research, we make sure we’re connecting with the right people so that we’re getting the right answers. So that’s kind of the board’s duties in a nutshell. It is, I will tell you, it’s one of the greatest joys of my life. It is also a lot of work. It is like a second job.

JEN:   I bet.

JAY:   They could easily, easily pay a kid out of college a pretty nice salary to sort of do the work that I do. But it is a labor of love. And working in corporate America is tricky as far as the values and capitalism that can sort of exist there. So it is my . . .

JEN:   You’ve got to be able to monetize.

JAY:   100%.  And I’m not mad at it. I’m just saying it is my way of sort of staying connected to my community, working for my community, and to make sure that that corporation is staying balanced when it comes to LGBTQ+ people and needs, right? For five years, I’ve been having conversations about creating gender neutral or all-inclusive bathrooms, essentially. So that’s a conversation that we’ve been having for five years, and it’s going to happen, I think. But people have to evolve. People have to change. People have to – it’s a lot of work, is the point I’m making. But I love it.

JEN:   I actually think the whole thing is really amazing. As we’re talking, I’m picturing commercials that are trying really hard, but I’m thinking of a bun commercial in particular or whatever. And I’m like, “Oh, where was your team?” They needed you. They should’ve come for you. But, out of all of the content in Paramount around the world, you have this really cool chance to influence ideas and policies and contribute to representative programming. And I’m hoping you’re going to give us, like, your basic definition of representation. We hear that a lot, the importance of representation.

JAY:   Sure.

JEN: Like what does it even mean, and why does it even matter.

JAY:   So, I will say, I’ve worked with an organization where I go in and talk to students. LGBTQ+, like a Gay/Straight Alliances, like those kinds of – I’ve done it a few times. And I sort of open the presentation by asking all the kids to tell me their favorite queer characters, artists, actors, athletes, pop culture moments, right? And we write them all down. So then there’s a board full of these queer representation, like it’s just full of it.

JEN:   And love that.

JAY:   And then I erase it all and then I say, when I came out in 1996, none of this existed because it never did, right?

JEN:   No.

JAY:   And I guess I just do that to sort of say that representation matters because feeling isolated and feeling like you’re other and feeling that you’re wrong, sort of, is the place where that kind of internalization of negativity happens. That sort of moment of, “I’m not good enough or I’m wrong.” Or through a Christian lens, God made me wrong, or the devil has a hold of me. However you want to say it, it’s, I think, without sort of looking around and saying there’s other people like me living happy lives, living Christian lives, it’s hard to believe that you’re okay, that there’s not something wrong with you. I think. 

And so representation matters because, I think, not only does it allow people to sort of feel okay as a human being, but also it saves lives. I think that kind of negativity and that internalization of that negative from so many places in our world or othered from so many places in our world is the thing that can lead to people harming themselves or harming other people. And I don’t even mean suicide, although that is a very, very big product of that, I believe. But it’s also harming yourself in other ways, right. Or sort of never being able to develop mental health stuff that comes from internalizing negativity or hatred or whatever influences that are kind of hurtful to your spirit. 

So, for me, I hope that’s clear. I think it is. But I think that, to me, ultimately, representation saves lives, right? That’s the shorthand I would give you. And I think what representation is, is like, it doesn’t mean that someone is out here on TV and Movies trying to change minds or change people. It’s just simply saying, “I exist too and you may not exist exactly like me. But there is part of me that is like you. and if I can sort of help you realize that and be okay with it, great.”

JEN:   I’ve heard analogies before that a kid doesn’t know you can be a healthy firefighter as, for example, a black girl. That’s not an option for maybe a little black girl in her mind until she sees a grown black woman as a firefighter and she’s like, “What? That’s my dream. I CAN do it.”

JAY:   100%. I think that’s exactly right. You sort of know that there’s a way to live fully and truthfully in a positive way, then you’re like, “ I can do that too.” But if you don’t know it and all you’re hearing are these negative kind of  things about you or these ideas that say you’re less-than or that you’re evil, I think it’s hard to sort of be okay with it, to have the strength of mind, you know, it’s impossible to not internalize some of that stuff.

JEN :  I hear the term “Representation” all the time. And I think I have a basic grasp of what we’re talking about there. And then I also hear the term “Queer Media.” Is it the same thing or is it two different things?

JAY:   Well, I mean, I think there’s overlaps. But I think, when you’re talking about representation, I loved your example of the black girl who wanted to be a firefighter and she didn’t know she could until she saw another black woman doing it. I think that is a great sort of summation of representation. I think, when we talk about representation and queer media, there is queer representation in that umbrella of queer media. I think queer media is really just sort of queer themed shows or characters or anything that involves queer representation, I guess. 

But any of those kinds of queer elements, I think you can sort of describe as queer media. I don’t think there is any network of queer media or anything like that. It sort of sends the Gay Agenda, the idea of queer media, I guess that would be with a capital T. As someone who’s been as deeply involved in media for as long as I have, that doesn’t exist. But I think, yeah, when you’re talking about queer media, it is just sort of the representation in queer media.

JEN:   At Paramount, you’ve had a chance to work with Proud and advocate for this more inclusive environment. Not just in representative media, but within the company itself, right? Can you share, you kind of touched on this a smidge with representation. But can you share what sorts of changes have been made at the company itself and in media in general in the past, whatever, 15, 20 years.

JAY:   Absolutely. I think I feel very grateful to work at a company that takes this stuff seriously, like diversity and inclusion across the board very seriously. And culture is very important there, obviously. They have this entire, again, office of global inclusion that oversees all of these employee resource groups. I think that through that, I can say, yeah, there has been – when I started on the board five years ago, that’s what I’ll say just through that lens – Most of what we did was cookie breaks. It was just about the social, the internal social connection of, “I’m not on a team with any other queer people. I can go to this event and see some other queer people that work at the  company at large.” That was sort of the work that was being done when I got involved. And, now, we do all the things I told you. That’s happened in the last five years. I consider all of that growth, right?

JEN:   Yeah.

JAY:   Now, we’re this steering committee. We literally, from our CEO down, we did this presentation where we’re like this is who we are, this is what we can do for you. And now, weekly, daily, we get, especially in June when all the networks are doing their pride programming. We get all this programming. So I think that’s huge progress. Now, outwardly facing, I would say like RuPaul’s Drag Race has done a lot for representation as far as people being able to kind of understand. Even if they’re not a drag queen, that being other is okay, right? That they can live truthfully and happily and be okay. I think, more than pushing drag as an art – although there is excellent drag on that show and very artistic drag on that show – that’s what it pushes. You have a community. You can live truthfully in your skin. That’s the beauty of drag race.  That’s what it is.

JEN:   Yeah.

JAY:   So, I think, outwardly, there’s that. And then across – I’m going to draw a blank and sound stupid if I start naming things – but across our company, you know, we just have a tradition, I think, of telling queer stories authentically and truthfully. I think about when I was in highschool, the real world was a revolutionary reality show because there was no reality TV, right?

JEN:   We’re about the same age?

JAY:   I remember the season, I think it’s season two or three, San Francisco where Padro Zamara, he was HIV positive. And I remember as a kid in Mississippi, sort of watching his story and being really changed by it and being really moved by it and seeing him. I remember the episode where he married his husband. And I didn’t know that was even a possibility, right? I guess I sort of knew of gay couples that lived together. Probably in Mississippi, I had some ideas of it. But that kind of stuff made me be, like, “Oh, this horrible thing that I think is wrong with me, that isn’t wrong.” I can still have this life that I think that I might want. So I guess those were sort of various shades of representation and how that matters.

JEN:   I think, like hearing ideas like this, inspires other companies that might not be very large into thinking about maybe they aren’t big enough to have a global inclusion team at the bakery or whatever. But it gives them ideas of conversations and stuff that could be happening. And I think it also inspires individuals to know what they can hope for and ask for in their own employment.  I think sometimes we think, “This is it. This is what I get.”

JAY:   Yeah. Totally. And you can’t question anything. I think, you know, absolutely. You’re right, I do feel grateful that I’ve landed in this corporate, it’s a corporate machine, I always say. But, however, they do pay a lot of attention to the humanity of the machine. So I feel very grateful for that. But it is, I think, important to always say, It’s not necessarily just I want to be a good person to this other queer person in my life be it child or sibling or whatever. But how can I be a better ally to just everybody, right? And so thinking about ways to change your work or change culture, I think all of that’s really important to kind of constantly figure out ways to dig in.

JEN:   That conjures up so many social media comments that I see all the time where people – I still live in a very conservative state. And so I see community conversations all the time about things like, I’m not a racist, or I’m not homophobic, or I’m not sexist or whatever. I would never want to hurt a transgender person. But, they have some thoughts about it. But like what you just talked about, moving from that, “Well, I don’t want you to die.” Is a pretty low bar. And moving to a place of actual allyship. And I support your full humanity and your full inclusion into society. It’s happening, right? It’s happening slowly which is why we see the angry pushback that we see.

JAY:   Yeah. You can point directly to these laws banning health care for trans youth and trans people. And then this ban on drag which is like, “Really. There are so many other things we should be worrying about, everybody! But we’re going to come from drag queens?” Anyway, yeah, the direct effect of people sort of opening up. It’s hard. These past couple of years have been hard as someone who’s been a part of fighting for social justice and inclusion for a long time, it’s sad to see those kinds of laws and that backlash happening. But I think you’re right. I think it is a direct response to the humanity that is starting to happen.

JEN:   So, it’s no longer June. We’ve moved past that. And you’ve mentioned  that your work kind of ramps up during the month of June. But I did hear online a little clip of you talking about rainbow capitalism.

JAY:   Really.

JEN:   Yeah.

JAY:   Where did you find that?

JEN:   It was a podcast.

JAY:   Oh, wow. Nice. Good.

JEN:   Yeah. It was a podcast.  Just a little shorty, like maybe 15, 20 minutes.

JAY:   I’ve definitely talked about rainbow capitalism, rainbow washing as they call it, for sure.

JEN:   So this idea of Pride month and this idea of representation and then also like rainbow capitalism, given all of your experience and stuff, I think our listeners would be interested in hearing your take on that.

JAY:   Sure. Absolutely. I have my opinion in the queer community, my opinion on it is always not the most popular. But, as someone who works for a huge corporation that I fully admit is a corporate machine and in the very capitalist wing of that corporation which I very much admit is a capitalist part of that corporation – I get why people react strongly to rainbow washing. And for those listeners who don’t know what that is, it’s sort of the idea that during June an organization puts a rainbow on their logo or outwardly supports the LGBTQ+ community and then July 1st, it all goes away. And it sort of, what’s the word I’m looking for, exploitative, exploiting the queer community for your own personal capitalist gain. 

And I fully understand all the criticism of it. I think it is fair and valid. Like, “How dare you come for us to get our number and then you’re not really supporting us the other eleven months of the year.” That is the basic argument against it and I think it is an accurate and valid argument. However, in the lens of representation, I am of the camp of the more the better. I want to see rainbows everywhere all the time. So, if we’re getting them in the month of June, okay. That’s where we are now, let’s push for more. Let’s keep criticizing, let’s keep everybody in check about it, but we’ve got to keep pushing. 

And so, for me, even if it’s in vain, I’m like, “OK. Someone who uses my bank who is struggling with their kid who came out, who sees that the bank supports it even in the month of June – I know, on Paramount Plus during the month of June the Logo is sort of that blue with the  mountain and the stars around it. So that white mountain and stars logo is a rainbow, during the month of June on Paramount Plus. And I remember last year, opening on June 1st to watch something , and I cried because I can’t imagine being a kid in rural Idaho or Mississippi and being like, “I’m seen in some way.” A queer kid and sort of feeling like that. Again, I get both sides of it. This is the blessing and the curse of my life. I get both sides of a lot of things. And I think the criticism of it is accurate. I think we have to keep pushing corporations and capitalism to sort of be better and do better. But I also think, yeah, bring on the rainbows. Who cares? Let’s see all the rainbows. That’s my opinion.

JEN:   I think back to when I was younger, and nobody was out in my world, right? And I think for those little hidden kids in the 80s to walk into a Target and be blasted with all of these rainbows and messages, it’s hard for me. I agree with everything you said. But it’s hard for me to complain about that when I think about . . .

JAY:   That’s how I feel. And maybe it’s the time that we grew up in that there wasn’t any of that, right?

JEN:   It might be because we’re old.

JAY:   I’m just appreciative that I see any of it at all. But I also think there are other things in this community that we should be focusing on. Like, that is the least of our  – a corporation putting a rainbow on their logo in June to support us, is so minor compared to trans children that are committing suicide and trans people that are being shot in the streets. Do you know what I mean? It’s just such a misguided focus of energy in my opinion. Not to come for people who criticize it because, again for the third time, I fully understand the criticism of it. I support it and I think we should be pushing for more. But I also think you can’t just focus on that.

JEN:   Before I let you go, I’m hoping that you’ll share any advice or insight that you have as you might be the same generation as some of the listeners. And so you probably understand a lot about their upbringing and what they’ve been taught. Do you have advice or wisdom for those parents who might be listening?

JAY:  Oh, that is a big one. You know, I would just say give yourself some time. Even if your kid is demanding that you move faster, I think you have to be easy with yourself. And I think, educate yourself the best you can. That would be my big advice is education, right? Listen to podcasts like this. Find clips online of other parents. Find organizations that you can find a community within in sort of educating in how you can love your kid and how you can love other queer people in your life, right? I think you, the more you know, to quote a stupid Saturday morning thing.

JEN:   I see the rainbow going across right now.

JAY:   You can see the thing, but it is true. The more you know, the better. We do the best we can with what we know when we know it. So the more you know, the better you can do. And so it’s hard. I know it’s hard when your belief systems and what you’ve known your whole life is so just part of the fabric of who you are. But you also have to know that isn’t the fabric of who everybody is. And other people have different fabric. And I think the more you can sort of warm up to that idea and the more you can educate yourself, the happier you’re going to go, the happier the queer person in your life is going to be. And you can live that way.

JEN:   I love that. That was really beautiful. Thanks so much, Jay. I know that your life is super busy.

JAY:   Of course. This is great. I could go on forever. I’m such a blabbermouth about this stuff. Thank you for having me. I really hope that any of your listeners who are struggling with this will really be easy with your loved one and yourself and know that there is happiness that can be found.

JEN:    I hope all of our listeners are feeling as inspired as I am. This was just fun. This was just a fun conversation. Thank you so, so much.

JAY:   Of course.

JEN:          Thanks so much for joining us here in the den. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with your friends. We’d also love it if you could take a minute to leave us a positive rating and review on whatever platform you’re listening to us on. Good reviews make us more visible and help us reach more folks who could benefit from listening. But, review or not, we’re glad you’re here. For more information on Mama Dragons and the podcast, you can visit our website at mamdragons.org or follow us on Instagram or Facebook. And if you’d like to help Mama Dragons in our mission to support, educate, and empower the parents of LGBTQ children, donate at mamadragons.org or click the donate link in the show notes.