When a Child Comes Out In the Spotlight

On this week’s episode of In the Den, Jen talks with Lupe Bartholomew, mother of American popstar David Archuleta. They discuss Lupe’s experience as a religiously devoted Latina mother of five. Lupe explains how having a child come out as gay in the world spotlight in 2021 changed her life and inspired her to become a public supporter of the LGBTQ community.

Special Guest: Lupe (Mayorga) Bartholomew

Lupe is American Idol finalist David Archuleta’s mother. Lupe, her mother, and her two sisters joined the LDS church in Honduras in 1978. Ultimately, Lupe and her family came to the United States to live the Mormon dream. Lupe lived as a very happy, fully believing, orthodox Mormon mother until her son David came out as gay in 2021. 

Links from the Show: 

David Archuleta’s website: https://davidarchuleta.com/ 

Find David on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/davidarchie/?hl=en

David on FB: https://www.facebook.com/davidarchuleta

Join Mama Dragons here: www.mamadragons.org 

In the Den is made possible by generous donors like you.

Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today at mamadragons.org.

Transcript

JEN: Hello and welcome. You are listening to In the Den with Mama Dragons. I’m your host, Jen. This podcast was created out of our desire to walk and talk with you through this journey of raising happy, healthy, and productive LGBTQ humans. We are so happy that you’re here with us.

The journey of a parent in this world is sometimes difficult to articulate. Especially when we’re speaking backward from the end of a learning curve. It is a brave act of vulnerability to share that journey with strangers in hope of helping them to feel less alone. Our guest today is a member of several of our Mama Dragons groups. She joined us less than a year ago, but we have noticed that her authenticity and her honesty is really connecting and resonating with the other members of the group. So we invited her on to share her story. I’m excited to welcome Lupe Bartholomew to talk to us today. Welcome! Welcome, Lupe!!

LUPE: Thank you very much. Muchos Gracias.

 JEN: I want us to focus our conversation primarily on your life as a mother and having a queer child. But to give us a little bit of background for your story for your narrative, can you share with us your childhood and your life, pretty much up to the point where you started your own family.

 LUPE: Well, I was born in Honduras and that’s in Central America. We speak Spanish there for those who don’t know. My mom was a stay-at-home mom. And my dad was a newscaster. I have three sisters. I’m the youngest of four. I’m the baby. And we grew up in an environment where religion was always important. We were raised Catholic. My mom used to go to many other churches. She joined many other churches but she was looking for a special religion. And she found the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And we joined that church on September 22nd 1978. We grew up just playing basketball in school. That’s what I remember the most. We just played, played, played basketball with my sisters.

And we also did a lot of activities in the church. So we were super involved in the church. We came to the United States in 1981. We worked very hard because, even though we came with a VISA our VISA expired and we ended up doing a lot of work that was more like housekeeping, people that did not need papers, or taking care of elderly people. And then, years later, I ended up getting married, had five children, and we just continued living our lives as a stay-at-home mom. So I raised my five kids.

JEN: So, given the nature and the focus of this podcast, we’re obviously going to be talking about your most recent experience with one child primarily. But I don’t think it’s possible to know a mom if you don't know a little bit about all of her kids. You have five kids. Can you talk to us about each of them just a little bit. Their relationships with each other, maybe the birth order, how that went, what your young family was like when you had a house full of five kids and you were doing the mom thing? What was that like at your house?

LUPE: It was pretty busy. My kids are like two years apart. So I was a pretty busy, tired mom even though I wanted to have probably like eight children. My goal was to have as many kids that I could have because I always wanted to be a mother. And it’s hard to, now that I think about it, it’s like, What was I thinking? I help sometimes with my grandkids and just to keep up with two is hard. Maybe because I’m older too. But I just was a homeschool mom. I loved the idea of keeping my kids home because if they got into trouble or anything, I just kept them home. I heard about homeschooling when my kids were very little so I tried to do that as much as I could. But I wish I could have had the knowledge to teach them the math and the science. But I didn’t.

So they went to school when they were in high school. And on-and-off they were homeschooled and they were sent to school. I taught them how to read. That was my most important goal is to teach them how to read. So they all read at age four, very well. And I just tried to keep them all so busy with music; I trained them in singing and just from home just for fun. And we did a few fairs and we sang to neighbors, just for fun. It was a fun time that we had. And they’re just like brothers and sisters, they just fight and sometimes they don’t get along and sometimes they do. And just a normal thing.

 JEN: We actually homeschooled our kids for a while too. So one day, different conversation, you and I will have to compare notes. 

You mentioned singing with your kids. I know that you are a brilliant singer and also a dancer. You were doing singing and dancing things with your sisters when you were little. And then you incorporated that into your house. You’re so adorable. And I just imagine you and your little five kids parading into a senior center and entertaining. It’s such a beautiful picture.

LUPE: Fun times.Yeah.

JEN: So before David told you that he was gay, what sorts of ideas and perceptions did you have about homosexuality before that?

LUPE: I really did not think about it. Pretty much I didn’t think about it. I heard things here and there about homosexuals. But I never thought I was raising one child that was like that. I mean, David was always more sensitive and he liked the color purple when he was little. But I never thought of him as “He’s my gay child.” It never crossed my mind.

JEN: In your other kids, do you have mostly girls? Is David the youngest? How does the birth order come together?

LUPE: I have three girls and two boys. And David is my second child.

JEN: Is that an older brother or an older sister?

LUPE: An older brother, yeah.

JEN: So two boys and then three girls.

LUPE: Yes.

JEN: Did you have any ideas about homosexuality belongs to other people and it’s bad, or did you just have no thoughts about it at all?

LUPE: I do think that while I was raising my kids, I never thought about homosexuals even though in the church they taught us that that’s bad in the Family Proclamation. So, I had a goal as a mom that my kids are going to get married and just live a normal life like anybody else where a boy and girl they marry. And I thought, “OK that’s what’s going to happen in my family.”

JEN: So I’m pretty familiar with the religious narrative that you would’ve received in both catholicism and most of your life within the LDS church. But in addition to that religious background, you come from Honduras. You lived a significant portion of your life in Honduras. Are there cultural issues or implications from that culture that played into some of your ideas about homosexuality?

LUPE: Like I said, I never thought about it because when I was a kid I was pretty busy. My mom kept us so busy, like I said, playing basketball. We played basketball, like, we lived in the basketball court. So I wasn’t thinking, ‘Oh” this person is like that, that person is like that.” I was pretty much involved in my basketball playing. And like I made it to the national team for Honduras when I was 14. I was the youngest to make it into the national team in Honduras.

JEN: That’s amazing.

LUPE: And I just pretty much concentrated on my sport, my basketball. And my church too. We were super involved in church. So we were just busy and I don’t think I ever thought, “Oh, that person is like that.“ I felt like at 12 years old, I was still a child. Even though here’s a teenager. But 12 years old for me in those days, I just felt like a little kid. I wasn’t even into boys or girls or into falling in love. I thought that was pretty gross. I thought my coach, my basketball coach. liked me and I hated him because of that. I was like, “Oh, I hope he doesn’t like me because he always put me on the spot. Can you show how to do a layup? Look how you do this?” And I’m like, “Oh, I think he likes me. Oh I don’t like him.” So I wasn’t into that, “Oh, I like you.” or anything like that. So I would just kind of concentrating.

JEN: I like the idea of being too busy to have prejudices.

LUPE: Yeah. I think so. 

JEN: There’s no time to hate people. I like that. 

So a couple years ago, your son tells you that he’s gay. How did that happen and how did you react? Were you prepared at all?

LUPE: I was not prepared at all because he has done so much for the church and helped so many people for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And there’s a thing called The Family: a Proclamation where you have to marry to make it to the highest level of the kingdom, you have to marry. A man and a woman need to marry. So that’s pretty much the rule. And I was, because I was very dedicated to church, that was very hard for me to accept. But I never stop, I told him I’m never going to stop loving you. You know, we’re a family and family is forever, you know. How can I tell my child, “Oh, now you’re gay. Now you’re telling me that you are gay? Well, I hate you. You’re not welcome in my house.” There is no way.

Because, first of all, I grew up in a home environment where my parents were always a set team. There was always unconditional love in my home. So I was prepared for that because I always told my children, “I love you even before I met you.” Because I always wanted to be a mom. So, yes, my love for him never changed just because he told me. But it was hard to accept for me because this was something new and it was something against my religion as well. It’s like, how are we going to make this work now?

JEN: Did you have any fear? Like were you afraid of how the world would react or how it would impact his career? Or, in my case I was very afraid of how that would affect my son’s spirituality and his walk with God. Were any of those emotions present there?

LUPE: I think everything. I just didn’t know what to think. I didn’t know how to take it. So I just kind of, David was very sensitive to me because it was something that I have never dealt with this issue before. So he kind of slowly but surely educated me. He gave me a book to read. There’s a guy that was the mascot for BYU and his name is Charlie Bird. He gave me a book and that was my first introduction into the gay community and being religious and try to be gay at the same time. It’s kind of like this is interesting. So, here’s Charlie trying to make the gospel work. He’s gay but he believes still in the church. So I thought, okay. This can work. I guess we can make it work too. But, I’m the type of the mom that I don’t force my kids to do something they don’t want because all of us have a different journey.

And we have to, even if we don’t like what we’re hearing, we have to accept the person because we love them and we respect them. That’s what respect is all about. We don’t agree, but I think getting educated on the LGBTQ+ community was very important, a huge step for me because I was against it, right? Because that’s what my beliefs are, is that family proclamation doesn’t go along with this. I had a hard time with that even though I still love my child. That’s never going to change. But it was something new for me. It was like learning a new language. If I start talking to you in Spanish, you’ll be like, “What? Excuse me? Take it easy. One word at a time.” So I think that’s what happened to me. I started getting educated.

JEN: Did David only tell you at this time or were you the only one in the family who knew for a period of time? or did he tell all of you at the same time?

LUPE: He told everyone, he made phone calls and he told everyone. He needed that to feel accepted by his family first and see what we thought. But we all said, “Hey, we love you.” It’s like “Bring it!”

JEN: So how long did you have time to adjust to this information and do the learning before David was ready to come out publicly to the world?

LUPE: I don’t remember the date. For me, when I have challenges in my life, I try to forget things. But I think he was preparing the family first and then he came out to the world to tell them. I think once he felt accepted by the family. It’s so important for the family to support their children. I hear stories of parents not talking to their kids and kicking them out of the house. And that is a sad thing to do. This is your child. You have to stand up for him first. Family comes first. At least for me, family comes first. So the rest of the world, to me, as I was worried what others would think, at the same time, this is my child and it’s kind of like, “I don’t care what they think. I do care what they think, but I really don’t care.” It’s kind of like one foot here and one foot there.

JEN: Yes. So much. So, most of us get to choose how quiet or how public we want to be with our advocacy and our support. Sometimes our kids are trying to decide how visible or invisible they want to be. In your case, there wasn’t a lot of options to remain invisible.

LUPE: No.

JEN: Do you think it’s different when you have a child that’s famous, is the whole process different?

LUPE: Um, I don’t think David had to come out to the world, really. But I think he felt that he needed to be honest. I think he got tired of just hiding it for so many years that he wanted to kill himself because he was hiding. And he just felt like, “I’ve just got to be honest.” I think he felt like he was drowning and he couldn’t handle it anymore. So he was like, he really thought, “I’ve got to be honest. I’ve got to be honest with the whole wide world.” He didn’t have to. He could’ve just kept hiding. But it was too much. And I don’t think it just happens because he’s famous. If your child is not famous, what’s the difference? They have a heart. They have feelings. I don’t think there’s a difference except that you have to tell the whole wide world.

It was amazing how people accepted him. It was overwhelming the love and support that he got. And that’s when he received the Mama Dragons heart attack, that meant so much for him and for me. Because it was something new for me. And I thought, wow, look at all those Mamas and their support and their love. And I just felt so welcome. Because it was something new for me, I didn’t know how to take it. It was so beautiful to know that there were other mothers that were in my shoes. And I didn’t feel lonely. So, thank you, Mama Dragons for that.

JEN: It does sometimes feel a little bit lonely when our kids come out, like there’s nobody to talk to who’ll understand, or who will not think you’re a bad mom or judge you or judge your kid. You kind of have to find a new community and people who will be there for you.

LUPE: Yes.

JEN:  You have done a really amazing thing in the group. You jumped right in and you’ve been leading out and creating safe spaces and inclusion. You’re so warm. In my head I’m like, that has to do something to do with her religious upbringing. You reach out and you plan an activity and you meet the people. You’ve been so warm and just jumped right in, which is awesome.

LUPE: Thank you.

JEN: So you talked a little bit about that you had some misconceptions or lack of conceptions – that’s how I was. I just didn’t have opinions because I’d never even thought about it before. And then, there’s that quick turn-around where you’re loving your kid, but you don’t know anything. And then you’re learning. You kind of talked about all of that. You mentioned a book by Charlie Bird, a great book. What else did you do during this time to try to figure it out and understand what was going on?

LUPE: You guys helped me a lot. Mama Dragons, I joined the Mama Dragons on Facebook and I started reading stories. And I was in tears just reading how other children are getting bullied and especially the trans community and how they don’t get care. They can’t go see a doctor. The support is, you know, how they use bathrooms. All these stories, and I was just like, “Wow. There is so much out there and so much pain. You know?” You guys are just amazing people. And I have learned so much because of you guys. I read your stories and I feel the pain and I feel connected to you guys. So thank you so much for helping me and helping me accept even more, my child. Because here we are, all fighting for the same cause to be heard. And I have felt like I have been heard.

So, now, it’s like I’m going to speak up because we shouldn’t be ashamed to have an LGBTQ+ child. And they come out so young. I’m amazed how some children come out so young. They speak up and some parents, I think it’s hard for them to accept that. And I don’t [inaudible] I think the parents are probably thinking, “This is just an ‘In’ thing for you, you’re just confused.” And I don’t know how you guys do it. Because, if David had come out when he was a child, I probably would’ve gone like, “I don’t believe you. This is just a phase. No.” But he came out when he was older, as an adult. So I think it was easier for me. But I don’t know how you guys do it when the child comes out at six years old, or seven. And the love and support that I read is amazing to me how you guys do that. And some other parents, some parents that I know that their kids have come out and they say, “Oh, we’re just going to ignore you. This is just a phase.” I just can’t comprehend it.

JEN:  Definitely advantages if they come out older. But there’s also advantages if they come out younger, right? Because when they are younger, you don’t have to do anything. They’re not ready to date yet and they’re not ready for medicines yet if they’re trans. So it gives you a little window of time to help.

LUPE: I think the challenge of the parents is “Oh, you’re just too little. You can’t decide, you’re just confused.” So the kids don’t have, how are they going to defend if they’re only children. If you’re six years old, how are you going to tell, “No Mom, I am, I’m gay or lesbian.” How are they going to explain that to a parent? So I feel for those little kids.

JEN: Yeah. I think the statistic is that the average gay person -- I think it’s just gay men – the average gay man knows that he’s gay by the age of 10. And if that’s the average and you have men who are figuring it out in their 20s or even their 30s, then you know it’s going the other direction. And so when you learn that statistic, it helps a lot to know that these kids aren’t making it up. They’re not delusional. They’re just kids who know themselves, which is actually a really beautiful thing that they don't have to go through the pain of figuring it out and that bargaining with God to try to take it away or change it or fix it. They can have normal relationships. By the time they’re 14 they can have a little crush without trying to wrestle it out in their minds. It’s actually really, I think it’s a beautiful thing that kids are figuring it out younger and younger so that they can have some normal childhood experiences. 

So, David comes out to you guys, and he comes out publicly and you deal with the onslaught of media that comes with those sorts of things. But, as a mom, what have you noticed about the family, about your relationships, and about David since he’s come out as compared to before? Is he doing better?

LUPE: Oh my goodness. Now, he’s like the happiest child ever. Because I think he was still trying to figure it out. He was gay or he was queer, he was all these names and when he finally decided this is who I am, and he feels accepted 100% from the family. And there was so much support. So much support. Of course, there’s always going to be people that are against it.

JEN: Gotta have the negative.

LUPE: But the support was amazing. Even I, now, I try to friend because I only have Facebook. I don’t like to have Instagram and all this stuff. I like my privacy. So Facebook is the only thing that I accepted. And now I am taking a lot of Mama Dragons as my Facebook friends. And I’m building my community that I’m proud of. I just don’t want people to be telling me, “But your beliefs are wrong.” I just want to connect with people. Because, for many years, I have felt that my sisters were always my best friends. As an introvert, I have always had very, very little friends. So, now, I want people that connect with me and my story and that I feel comfortable just sharing.

And I pretty much don’t care if people don’t like what I’m saying because it is what it is. I want to be honest and we’re going to embrace this culture now. I have gone to my first drag show here and I never thought in a million years I would’ve been here before. But I am so happy I went to the show, I took my grandchild and one of my daughters and we had a blast. And it was so beautiful, you know, for me to open up to this world. And these are great people. I had always felt like the LGBTQ+ community; they're so sensitive and they’re so caring. When you talk to one of them, I just feel like, “Give me a hug.” Because I feel they’re so vulnerable. They’re just beautiful souls. And I just want to keep embracing this culture that I am so glad I have a child like that. Because if not, I would’ve just ignored – I feel the LGBTQ+ community would’ve been kind of invisible for me. And now I’m embracing it and loving it. I’m loving it. These are great people. They're just like us, even better than us.

JEN: Going to a family friendly drag show is such a great way to confront some of the lies and misconceptions we have. You just see it’s just a bunch of fun, silly people who are doing their thing and being themselves.

LUPE: It was a lot of children. A lot of families. And I thought, “What a great environment,” you know? I can’t wait to go to my next one.

JEN: All the singing and dancing had to have been right up your alley, too.

LUPE: They’re so talented too.

JEN: Yeah, some of those makeup skills are crazy impressive. So, how is your extended family, like, your siblings and stuff doing with the information and the decision you’ve made about it, because there’s been a lot of changes in your family.

LUPE: My family, like I said, they just accept this, no problem. They have no problem because they adore David. So they respect him a lot and so we’re good. We’re just good with it.

JEN:  Good. Sometimes the LGBTQ thing divides families. And sometimes the religious decisions that people make, faith transitions and things divide families. I’m happy to hear that your family’s just going strong.

LUPE: Yeah. We are going strong. We are just accepting it and we’re just moving on. Life goes on.

JEN: Are David’s siblings also adjusting well and from the start it wasn’t a problem?

LUPE: I cannot speak for them, but they have always loved David. So I think just because before we didn't know he was gay or queer, it doesn’t change things. He’s still the same person. So it’s kind of like you’re talking to the same person. Now, we’re just aware that he belongs to the LGBTQ+ community. And nothing really has changed in our love for him. And their love for him has not changed. He’s the same person, happier now.

JEN: Which is what we want for our kids, just that happiness. So, you talked about how you had these hopes or dreams or maybe even expectations that your kids would all get married in a Mormon temple, following those Mormon rules. And David was a little bit older when he came out, so talk about your feelings, not his – you can’t speak to his experience – but as he’s going through life and serving a mission and coming home, he’s dating girls. Did that change your expectations? Did it just kind of keep feeding into that?

LUPE: I was just so happy that he was dating beautiful girls. And I thought, “Oh, she’s so perfect for you. Look at this one. She’d be a great mom. Oh, she would be a wonderful wife. And how wonderful.” 

JEN: So you were the one falling in love with the girls?

LUPE: Oh, yes. He was picking great girls. So, I thought, okay, yeah, He’s going to get married soon. And I think he failed three times. He got engaged like three times and he couldn’t get there. I was so disappointed.

JEN: How did he explain that to you? Like, what did you understand was the reason for these engagements being called off?

LUPE: I don’t think he said that until his last one. His last engagement he was just so frustrated he couldn’t get there. So you can’t force something just because everybody else is believing something is the right thing to do. And you are just suffocating inside and you can’t make it work. You’re trying to make it work because that’s what the rules are from our religion. You have to marry to get the highest degree of glory. And he tried. He prayed the gay away. And he could not get there. I’m a witness to that. He could not get there. He tried and tried and prayed. And dated girls and he just couldn’t.

JEN: It takes a lot of integrity to stand up for yourself and what you need when you’re part of a system that is telling you what the right thing to do is. So I have to respect all of the men and women and nonbinary people who live true to themselves regardless of all that pressure. which is what David did, tried and tried and tried but in the last moment, he had to do what he needed to do. Which was also, sort of protecting those girls.

LUPE: Yeah. You don’t want to, can you imagine getting married and saying a year after or five years after, “I’m sorry, but this doesn’t work for me.” So don’t do it. Don’t do it.

JEN: So, since he’s come out, has he been dating and how is that different for you? We’re not, I don’t want you to try to speak for him. But for you, how is it different now that he’s dating people he’s actually attracted to?

LUPE: It’s his own deal and I’m happy for him. We’re just going to accept. Because David is such a good person, he always dates amazing people. So we’re always going to support him. And we’re happy where he’s at.

JEN: I just want you to fall in love with the boys the same way you fell in love with all the girls. 

Before I let you go, you came to a place of acceptance and then celebration pretty quickly, which is inspiring for a lot of people. I'm hoping that you have a message of hope or strength for some of the parents who are in similar circumstances just starting out or maybe it’s just taking them longer to understand. Do you have any advice or wisdom for them?

LUPE: Definitely what helped me is joining support groups. You cannot do this by yourself. I couldn’t have done it without Mama Dragons or the support of the community and hearing everybody’s stories. And that helped me a lot, you know. And I felt welcome and I felt like I could do this. This is what’s happening, this is a normal lifestyle that a lot of people are hiding. So it’s kind of like we don’t have to hide when we talk to each other in Mama Dragons. So join a support group. I think there’s another group called Mama Bears or something like that too. So join a support group because you’re not alone and we can celebrate together.

JEN: I’ve been asked before, why does the mom need support? Like you’re saying, join a support group, and I agree with you. But, why? You’re not gay? Why do you need support? If people are thinking that, what is the purpose of a support group for the moms and how does that help?

LUPE: You hear the stories of moms struggling with what their children are struggling with. So, as a mom, I could not go to my church and tell them, “Hey, I have a question? How do I deal with this?” I cannot go there because they would probably be looking at me like “Your son is sinning, he’s a sinner.” I have to go to people that are in the same shoes. Right now, I need that support. It’s been a great help for me to hear stories from mamas with LGBTQ+ children. So it helps me. My problems become smaller when I hear other people’s stories. So, mine is not that bad. So you have to join because who am I going to go to speak up or to tell them I’m worried about this or I need you to counsel me, how do I deal with this problem. And Mama Dragons have been there for me. It’s kind of like you need that help, you need that support.

JEN: One of the things you kind of touched on that is so resonant with my own experience is that when you become aware of the LGBTQ community, you start to notice them, they’re not invisible to you anymore, you can see that there’s a lot of struggle. There’s a lot of pain in their stories. And I was convinced that if I just let other people know, “Hey, there’s this whole community here that’s really hurting.” Then everyone would resonate with that pain, and everyone – including my church – would rally to help this community that was hurting. And I’ve discovered over time that is not true. But you can reach individual people, but society at large is not as open to the message. And you kind of talked about that which just shows your heart. As soon as you’re aware of the stories your heart breaks wide open and you want to help. Has it been frustrating for you to straddle a couple of worlds and feel like you’re trying to advocate but nobody’s listening?

LUPE: Yes. Like I went to my Bishop from the church and I told him I’ve got to speak up. I’ve got to tell him how painful this is, how my child really is having a hard time going to church because I invited David to come to church with me a couple times. And one day he just told me, David told me, “Mom, I cannot go to church anymore because it hurts.” So, I thought, okay. I need to, as a mama, you need to speak up for him. And so I went to my Bishop and told him, the Bishop, “My son is hurting and he doesn’t feel welcome in the church anymore. So, what do I do?” So my purpose was to talk to the bishop so he could talk to the general authorities and tell them there’s, not just my son, but there’s a lot of people that are hiding and they don’t feel welcome in our church.

But the bishop, the only thing he told me is “Just remain faithful and we love him and just hang in there. We don't have all the answers.” And that was it. So I thought I don’t have a voice. I’m no one. So it was very frustrating for me because there’s, not just in our religion, the Mormon church, but I’m sure there’s many religions – I tried to join another religion because I thought I needed religion after leaving the LDS church. And I asked the pastor, I sent him an email to this different church. And I asked him, “What are your beliefs on the LGBTQ+ community?” And he said, “Oh, we love them, but we try to help them to change.” And I thought, I don’t need religion. I don’t want people telling me that my son or my child is sinning because that’s not true. Because, I believe in a God that is a loving God and he made the LGBTQ+ community for a reason because they’re special too. They're people. They have hearts.

And I just thought, up to this state, I just don’t want a religion because I don’t want them to be judgmental of my family. And so we don’t have a voice and the best thing I could do is speak up and not to be ashamed of it and to embrace the culture. And ,right now, I’m just trying to teach my grandkids and tell them, look, this is a new culture and this is what’s happening. And some guys marry guys and some girls marry girls. And so the best thing we can do is help our grandkids, a new generation, to tell them this is okay. So when you see somebody, a boy kissing a boy or a girl hugging a girl or getting married, it’s okay. So we need to teach them, the new generation, or we’re going to be stuck in this mentality of “this is only a boy/girl world,” because it’s not so true. So we just need to open up, educate everybody else. We just need to speak up, keep speaking up.

JEN: If everybody knew that these people were trying so hard and they were suicidal and we were losing them and it’s not due to lack of effort, that everybody would want to support. And I like that you’ve discovered, “I’m not going to be able to change these institutions. I’m not going to be able to change all of these systems. But I can change the next generation,” because there's a lot of hope there.

LUPE: Exactly. Yes.

JEN: I love that. And there are people who are willing to listen and learn. There will be people who listen to you today that have their hearts open and minds changed. You have a viral post on social media. I’m convinced that that opened some hearts and changed some minds.

LUPE: There has been a lot of support. Most, maybe a couple of people that would say no. But mostly the people are open and they have been supportive. So it’s great. I’m going to keep speaking up.

JEN: Awesome. We’re going to have you come back and speak to our Madre Dragones in Spanish.

LUPE: Yes.

JEN: So they can hear all of this wisdom and support in their primary language also.

LUPE: Definitely, that would be awesome because I’m sure there’s a lot of them that there’s not a lot of resources for them to listen and support. And so I think I’m all for it. Let’s do it in espanol.

JEN: Perfect. Thank you so much for coming today. You’re beautiful inside and out.

LUPE: Thank you.

JEN: Your love and passion for motherhood. I love when you talk about just being excited to be a mom and just how much you loved motherhood and grandmotherhood. It shines through you. I know our listeners are going to relate to this story even though parts of your story are unique. So thank you for coming.

LUPE: Now that you said something that, even though if you have a son -- like David for example, he won’t be able, if he marries a guy, I won’t be having those grandchildren that I was excited to have. But he can adopt. And you can always be a parent. Even teachers, there’s always opportunity to be a mom and a dad. There's always an opportunity to love children. So I’m accepting that too. So I’m excited for if he adopts or he decides not to, but joins a brother’s and sister’s club or there's always a way to be a parent.

JEN: We actually just did a whole episode recently and spotlighted three different ways that queer people become parents. Only three, but there's lots of ways. There’s a whole episode on that called World of Possibility.

LUPE: Yeah. I think I heard that episode and I loved it. So, yes, it is possible. There’s other ways to become a parent.

JEN: Thank you for having such a large and vulnerable heart. But thank you even more for sharing it with us.

LUPE: Thank you. It was great meeting you.

JEN: Thanks so much for joining us here in the den. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with your friends. We’d also love it if you could take a minute to leave us a positive rating and review on whatever platform you’re listening to us on. Good reviews make us more visible and help us reach more folks who could benefit from listening. But, review or not, we’re glad you’re here. For more information on Mama Dragons and the podcast, you can visit our website at mamdragons.org or follow us on Instagram or Facebook. And if you’d like to help Mama Dragons in our mission to support, educate, and empower the parents of LGBTQ children, donate at mamadragons.org or click the donate link in the show notes.