Mama Dragons Stories: Chelsea

There are similarities and differences between all of our individual stories as Mama Dragons. We come from diverse religious backgrounds, political parties, family dynamics, and geographic areas. Each of us started at different levels of acceptance, but we all relate to the desire of wanting to protect our children over our own biases. This week, we continue our new series of telling Mama Dragons stories. In this episode of In the Den, we meet Chelsea. 

Special Guest: 

Chelsea Hanson (she, her) is a 51 year old teacher and artist currently living in Las Vegas, Nevada.  She grew up in Shelley, Idaho, graduated high school in Conrad, Montana, graduated from Boise State University with a degree in illustration, and spent 2 years studying at a private art academy.  She has also lived in Utah and Oregon.  She has been teaching visual art in the public school realm for 15 years.  She has two awesome, lovely, smart, funny, resilient kids, a 16 year old son and her 20 year old daughter (dragon) who are both the center of her world.  She enjoys playing and coaching tennis, playing guitar, loves music, loves being outdoors, making and building stuff and spending time with her kids.  

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Transcript

JEN: Hello and welcome to In The Den with Mama Dragons. I’m your host, Jen. This podcast was created to walk and talk with you through the journey of raising happy, healthy, and productive LGBTQ humans. Thanks for listening. We’re glad you’re here.

It is time again for another Mama Dragon story! This is our second in the series. A lot of our members share portions of our journeys that are similar to each other.  It is part of what connects us and allows us to support each other.  But we also all have some unique elements that led us to the Mama Dragons spaces. We come from all sorts of religious backgrounds and nations and we start at different places.  But we are united in our desire to protect our queer children and our relationships with them. So, based on that, 3-4 times a year, we’ll be sharing a Mama Dragons story. And for number two we are lucky enough to meet Chelsea and take a deep dive into her personal Mama Dragon story.  Like always, I want to remind everyone that this is a singular story representing one person and it is as unique and amazing as the other 10,000 stories in our groups. So, Welcome, Chelsea.

CHELSEA: Thank you very much.

JEN: Chelsea Hanson is a 51-year-old teacher and artist currently living in Las Vegas, Nevada.  She grew up in Shelley, Idaho, graduated High School in Conrad, Montana, graduated from Boise State University with a degree in illustration and spent 2 years studying at a private art academy.  She has also lived in Utah and Oregon.  She has been teaching visual art in the public-school realm for 15 years.  She has 2 awesome, lovely, smart, funny, resilient kids, a 16-year-old son and her 20-year-old daughter who are both the center of her world.  She enjoys playing and coaching tennis, playing guitar, loves music, loves being outdoors, making and building stuff and spending time with her kids.  So, pretty much, that’s the whole story. And we’re just going to dive a little bit deeper. And I learned some things. I didn’t know you were a tennis coach?

CHELSEA: Yeah. I picked it up when I was in high school in Conrad, Montana. And then just threw myself into it. It’s one of my things that actually, as it goes on in the story, like you use things to just kind of center you. Tennis was one of those things I kind of channeled my energy into. And I ended up playing on the UVU – at the time it was UVSC but now UVU – Utah Valley University. And I would play one and two singles, two doubles, I did that for two and a half years. I’ve done private lessons. I’ve done coaching. And I just recently picked up a gig where I’m coaching again at the high school that I’m teaching at.

JEN: High school, that sounds fun.

CHELSEA: Yeah.

JEN: I want to start at the very, very beginning. I do that a lot. I think it puts everything in context a little bit, everything else that we talk about. So, introduce us to a young Chelsea. Tell us about your life and what it looked like during those elementary years.

CHELSEA: Okay. I was actually born in Provo, Utah. And my family quickly moved. I was the only child not born in the Idaho Falls hospital which is kind of funny. But my family moved around a little bit. My folks ran a drapery business in Shelley for a little while.

JEN: Like making curtains?

CHELSEA: Making drapes. My dad would do the bids and installing and my mom would do all the making. So, I grew up around their workshop and things like that. It was really cool. I’d sneak in and destroy their expensive drapery waves, make piles. I don’t know, just a lot of, when I was a kid, I’d just like to do a lot of making, creating, playing around with stuff. I would paint our tree with mud. I don't know. I’d flip over a couch and use it as a cave until I pounded nails into the wooden arm rests and that was great. What else?

JEN: Tell us about your siblings?

CHELSEA: I’m the oldest of six kids.

JEN: Oh, six, okay. That’ s a lot.

CHELSEA: Yeah. So, I’m the oldest of six kids. I have two brothers, no three brothers and two sisters. And I love them all. Right now, we get along very well, thankfully, even after my transition and things.

JEN: Good.

CHELSEA: They’re my best friends in a lot of ways. So, yeah.

JEN: So, talk to me about – put your brain back into elementary school?

CHELSEA: Okay.

JEN: Did you have any concept or understanding of gender at all or orientation when you were in those young ages?

CHELSEA: Boy. You sort of do on a surface level that, you know, you were in this category and some people are in that category kind of a thing. But the category I was oftentimes driven, it just felt more normal what it fit into, I got a huge push back on that, you know?

JEN: So, you were kind of drawn to hang out with the girls?

CHELSEA: Yeah. And not just hang out with girls but also do the things that stereotypically girls would do with just the way they play and do things.

JEN: And did you internalize at all, at any point in there, like something’s wrong here? People aren’t seeing me or nobody’s understanding me, or were you just kind of like, life is hard. I guess I’ll play with a truck because they told me to?

CHELSEA: Well, I remember, like for instance, I don’t know if you ever play this game, but they used to do this when I was a kid. I don’t know how it got started, but like a kissing tag kind of a thing.

JEN: We did that in elementary school. The girls would run and the boys would chase.

CHELSEA: And sometimes it was the other way around, right?

JEN: I think our school was pretty solid on the boy job and the girl job.

CHELSEA: I see. Oh, interesting. That’s funny. So, anyway, I remember one time getting punched by some boy because I was going to kiss them, kind of a thing, and it was like, “Isn’t this the way the things works.” And that was just an example of many where I was just, okay. I stick with this neutral things as I need to, to save face.

JEN: So, you’re basically like, “I’m trying to learn the rules.”

CHELSEA: Kind of like that, yeah.

JEN: And this is not super intuitive at this part.

CHELSEA: No.

JEN: OK. So what about, move us into your high school years and your middle school years, like your family and growing up and what were you doing and what did it look like to be Chelsea as you’re entering puberty and high school?

CHELSEA: Let’s see. Boy. The more I got into middle school and high school the more closed off I got. I was crazy shy, very hard to kind of connect with people. I would do a lot of things like I did a lot of drawing, a lot of making things. I would make my own little crossbow with rubber bands. I would make puppets and I’d put on a big puppet show for my relatives at some family gathering. I did stuff like that all the time. I don’t know.

JEN: We just talked about how you were trying to kind of figure out the rules, right, of how to interact and it didn’t always go well. Do you feel like by the time you got to middle school and high school you were like, “You know what doesn’t have any rules? Art and I’m by myself.” Do you feel like that’s part of the retreating? Or was it like an internal, you were just going to be an artist?

CHELSEA: I don’t know that I would say I was just going to be an artist. It was just where I gravitated. Like I just loved drawing. I loved cartoons. I loved painting, drawing, anything to do with that. Just like, the farther on I delved I was just like, “This is what I want to do kind of thing.” Right, than who I was. And when it came down to who I was, that’s the part where it started, especially middle school, high school years, that’s the part where it really started clashing hardcore, just simply because I wanted to be a girl. I wanted to be one of the girls. I wanted to be seen for that. I wanted to do that kind of stuff.

JEN: Did you know? Could you have articulated it that way or that just hindsight that lets you know what was going on back then?

CHELSEA: That is a really good question. I don’t know that I could. I know that I could articulate that I really wanted to be a girl and that that is just what felt more the way it should be, in a lot of ways. But, at  the same time, I felt like I was very wrong for doing that, you know, because growing up in a very conservative religious household in a rural state that is very conservative . . .

JEN: At this point you were in Montana, right?

CHELSEA: I was in Idaho still.

JEN: Oh, Okay.

CHELSEA: We moved up to Montana, let’s see, in the middle of the sophomore year.

JEN: Okay.

CHELSEA: So, trying to figure all that out was something else. I just felt like this was a dirty little secret after a while. I mean, it was built up like that. I mean, when I was in, younger, in elementary, I would want to do dress-up all the time in my mom’s clothes and things like that. And at one point my mom was okay, they’re just kids. And then it got to this point where it was, “You know, we really need to sit down. This is not right. This is not good.” And I very much internalized that, but at the same time I wanted to gravitate towards that. And so those two were fighting each other.

JEN: Internalizing that you weren’t good?

CHELSEA: Yeah.

JEN: Is that what you mean by internalized?

CHELSEA: Yeah. That’s what I mean. So, like for instance, having those kind of feelings that I just simply wanting to wear that was bad. So then, surely, my wanting to be a girl would be even worse, kind of a thing. And I kind of just carried into that. And then when puberty hit, that got way more difficult.

JEN: And what did you do with that difficulty? Did you tell someone? Did you talk about it?

CHELSEA: A little bit here and there, I ended up talking a couple times to my folks. But at that time, they were under the impression that this is just wrong. This is not what you’re supposed to do. And so they tried to put it that way. But they weren’t very mean about it. But, at the same time, they were just like, their idea of who do we help this person was to keep them away from that completely as much as we could. Which, then, of course, further internalizes, “What does that mean about me because this is how I feel?”

JEN: Yeah. And we know from the research from the Family Acceptance Project that that’s common for parents to do that and also very harmful.

CHELSEA: Yeah.

JEN: So well-meaning, well-intended parents who are trying to help sometimes do things that are the opposite of help. So, if you had said to somebody, “I wish I was a girl.” And they had said, “Why? Why do you want to be a girl?” Could you have answered that or was it more of a like because everybody wants to be a girl.

CHELSEA: Boy. I don’t know that I could’ve answered that at that time. Yeah. I don’t know. It was clear that it wasn’t everybody was like that. In fact, anybody that I saw that was seen as male that showed any effeminate, kind of ways about them, right, would be treated very, very brutally. I remember seeing one kiddo that – I feel awful about it thinking back and I didn’t join in on it, but I didn’t stand up and tell him to quite that thing because I was afraid of being retaliated to – but I just remember seeing how awfully that poor person got treated for being very exuberantly against the social norms.

JEN: Society has a pretty intense way of teaching us to conform, doesn’t it?

CHELSEA: It does. It really does.

JEN: So how old were you when you got married?

CHELSEA: I got married a lot later. So, I got married not until I was 29.

JEN: So normal.

CHELSEA: 28, so, yeah, normal.

JEN: Normal outside of your faith tradition.

CHELSEA: Yes. Exactly. It was very un-abnormal. In fact, a lot of people were like, “What’s wrong with you?” kind of thing. And I remember that.

JEN: So, before that, between high school and getting married, you went to college and graduated, and then you went to art school. And were you questioning your orientation during any of this?

CHELSEA: All throughout it. All throughout it.

JEN: Did you know? Could you tell who you were attracted to?

CHELSEA: That is a hard thing because then again, we’re talking about who we’re attracted to versus how you feel inside about yourself kind of a thing. And honestly, the attraction part, I still wonder about some of this simply because I find in retrospect – after starting to allow myself to question some of this stuff – I’m like, “Wait a minute. This is not at all what I thought it was because I was going by what it was supposed to be.” And, so, I don't know. I sometimes wonder if I was equating jealousy or just what I would want to be more like as being attracted to somebody kind of a thing.

JEN: We hear that a lot from people how, just in all different varieties how we only have words for straight people. Like, you’re attracted to men and you are a man, or you’re attracted to women and you are a woman. And there’s no other categories. So, if you’re kind of stuck between categories, that’s confusing especially for kids, right?

CHELSEA: Exactly. But that’s also too, is part of it. It’s, okay, I feel this way about them. It must be that I’m attracted to them, right? It’s like you almost don’t have the interior language to say “OH, man. I think they’re incredibly good looking,” kind of of a thing. “I really like them.” And it’s like, “Is that what it is? I think that’s what it is. Yeah? And a lot of people find out later, like, wait a minute.

JEN:  Yeah. So how did you find c-, were you dating in college?

CHELSEA: I was. I actually dated in college and I was not good at it. I was very, very bad at it. And I would definitely want to date and I would go out and do things. But it just nothing ever really clicked kind of a thing.

JEN: Were you dating men?

CHELSEA: No. I was dating girls.

JEN: Okay. You were dating girls.

CHELSEA: I didn’t dare go against those kind of norms, ever. Right? And at that time, I still would’ve said, “NO. I’m attracted to girls?

JEN: okay.

CHELSEA: It was only until way later that I found out like, wait a minute, was this really attraction or is it not. And there’s still parts of me trying to work that out. Anyway, winding back, in college I would do stupid weird stuff just for fun. Like I remember this one person – it was the popular thing to have this big overblown way to ask somebody to a dance, right?

JEN: Prom-posals.

CHELSEA: Yeah. And I don’t like the way most people do these kind of things. So I actually – my daughter loves this by the way – I actually got a potted plant that looked really nice, a pretty flower. But I actually took a diaper and I smeared peanut butter on the inside and wrapped it up around. And the card said, “I would poop my plants if you’d go to the dance with me.” It was so stupid. But just that kind of nonsense.

JEN: So, I think you’re funny. Is that kind of where it all started?

CHELSEA: Is were what started?

JEN: In college, is that when you kind of started to develop your sense of humor, or were you funny in high school too.

 CHELSEA: I would say it’s like growing up. Me and my brothers and sisters, we would all just always be trying to make each other laugh kind of a thing.

JEN: Fun. I love that.

CHELSEA: Yeah. A lot of movie memes and stuff like that.

JEN: Okay. So, you got married in your late 20’s, almost 30. Tell us about that were you head-over-heels in love? Were you like, you know what, it’s got to happen at some point. What was happening?

CHELSEA: I don’t know that I’d say anything either like those two. It was more like one thing I knew that I did want is I wanted a family. I love that thought of having kids. I love the thought of having a family and connecting with somebody deeply that you cared about. And I also very much was in that frame of mind that I wanted to be a very dutiful, faithful kind of person regarding my religious institution. And so that’s what you do. Well, obviously, nothing was ever working in that regard. And then I ended up moving back home for a little bit.

JEN: You mean, nothing worked when you were younger or nothing worked after?

CHELSEA: Oh, sorry. Yeah. Nothing really worked as far as like dating scene or things like that.

JEN: Okay.

CHELSEA: The closest it happened, it was different. It was a very one-sided and it was just a good thing nothing ever happened to that. And then after that I ended up moving back home with my folks. This is after I’d been through about three years of college at UVU. And, by that time, my folks had moved to Rupert, Idaho. And the way you smile

JEN: I know Rupert.

CHELSEA: Okay. Yeah, so anyway, I moved to Rupert and I just kind of said like, “Let’s do a hard reset kind of a thing.” And tried to figure myself out, get myself on the right track. And I did some dating there and just kind of connected with a person there that eventually became my spouse.

JEN: So you met your wife in Rupert?

CHELSEA: Yes. I did. I did.

JEN: That was lucky, because there’s like 10 people who live there. So that worked out great for you.

CHELSEA: Yeah. It hasn’t grown much, has it. Well, you think it worked out great, but yeah.

JEN: I mean, the meeting part. You met someone.

CHELSEA: The meeting part, yes. So, there we go. So, I ended up getting married there.

JEN: Was she also, I don’t want to say older because you were not old.

CHELSEA: Thank you.

JEN: But that’s how you described yourself as being older.

CHELSEA: That is probably how I describe myself because of the social norm, right? No. She was 21.

JEN: So, you were a little older than she was.

CHELSEA: No. I was 28 almost working my way to 29 So there was like a seven-year age gap.

JEN: Okay. And then did you fall head-over-heels? Talk to me about, because you were married for a while.

CHELSEA: I was. I’ve never had that experience where you’re just like head-over-heels in love with somebody. I just never have. I was more like this person is the kind of person of quality that I’m looking for, at least. felt I was looking for. You know, they seemed to be very modest, polite, they were a member of this particular church, blah, blah, blah.”

JEN: We talked a couple of episodes ago about the checklist. Did you have a checklist?

CHELSEA: In my mind I did, yes. It was laminated somewhere in one of these cortexes.

JEN: Okay. So, she checked all the boxes.

CHELSEA: I know, checked all the main boxes, but it’s interesting. But the boxes, as I would go on, I would’ve picked some different boxes. That’s for sure.

JEN: That might just be an aging situation also where we’re like, “Oh, those priorities are a little wonky.

CHELSEA: It might be. But they were very much, very church-centered. Right?

JEN: Mm-hmm.

CHELSEA: Very religious, I want to say more religious culture centered. Yeah. And  because of that, it was just like, “Well, you’re doing what you need to do. You’re doing what you’re supposed to do.” Right?

JEN: Did that trigger anything? Like you mentioned puberty was particularly hard, did getting married trigger anything with your own internalized stuff that you’d been pushing down?

CHELSEA: Not at first because at first I was just like, “’I’m finally doing what needs to be done.” Kind of a thing.

JEN: I got on the path.

CHELSEA: I got on the path. Seriously. And my relatives, my grandparents, they were encouraging that too. They were encouraging that too, kind of like, “Glad you’re finally on this track.”

JEN: So, you’re navigating a new marriage and then you start having kids, is what you wanted?

CHELSEA: Yeah. I started having kids. It is what I wanted. And that is one thing that I’ve got to say, as much as I regret certain things along the way here, my kids I do not regret one bit. I just wish it could’ve been with different circumstances.

JEN: I met you when you very first were starting to kind of come to grips with some of this stuff.

CHELSEA: Yeah.

JEN: And I’ll announce to the crowd loudly your secrets.

CHELSEA: Go for it.

JEN: The priority from the very first second for you has been those kids. There’s been no doubt that your kids from the start are your number one.

CHELSEA: Thank you.

JEN: So, you’re having kids. They’re little. You’re teaching art.

CHELSEA: No. Let’s back it up here.

JEN: We missed one. Okay.

CHELSEA: I met my spouse, we ended up moving to – six months after I was 

working, she finished up her degree, got her degree and then we moved to . . .

JEN: Was she an artist also?

CHELSEA: No. No. She was a dental hygienist at the time.

JEN: That’s not an artist?

CHELSEA: Not at all. No.

JEN: Okay.

CHELSEA: And it’s kind of different sides of that. And then we moved to Boise. And then got a house in Nampa and we’re just kind of going along. I got my degree in illustration in art. And then, right after that, I was trying to figure out how to do this. I wanted a little bit better training but there was nothing to be had. And then I found out about this art academy over in Oregon at the time. And so we just, I think my ex at the time was just hating her job so much that she was willing to do anything because I don’t know how on Earth I got her to move clear over to Oregon.

JEN: So, the Art Academy thing happened after you got married?

CHELSEA: After, after I got married, oh yeah.

JEN: Okay.

CHELSEA: And so, we went there and my ex was working full time. I did a little part-time job here or there. But mostly it was just full-time school and then my other time I ended up watching our daughter. So, my daughter was born while we were still in Nampa. I’m really bad at this. I’m making all sorts of go back, go forth, right, it’s like a movie where there’s non-linear, right?

JEN: If I get confused, I’ll ask you.

CHELSEA: Sounds good. But, yeah, my daughter was born when we were in Nampa and she was just kind of my whole world. And the second part that would claim anything to that was simply that I finally found this path somehow with illustration and then commercial fine art is basically the term I come with it right now. But it’s what I wanted to do. You’ve probably seen one of my paintings in the background.

JEN: I can.

CHELSEA: It was just this was really what I wanted to do with my life, right? So those are my two passions. And when we moved to Oregon, it was amazing because – let me back up and say that as far as relating towards gender dysphoria and things like that, it was the longer I went on the more brutal it became, right?

JEN: I was going to ask about that.

CHELSEA: And you’re told so many times in so many ways and it doesn’t have to be directly it can be indirectly through just the way people do their talks like your church leaders, the people around you. And they just act like, as long as you’re doing all of these things, then some of this other stuff will just go away. It never went away. It just got worse and worse and worse very slowly. And it was like I thought once I got married I’ll finally get rid of all this other stuff in the background, right, the dull roar.

JEN: Were you able to stay busy enough between taking care of your daughter most of the time, which you loved, and then also going – was illustration school like grad school or just like a certificate, whatever?

CHELSEA: It was kind of neither because it was like this Russian art instructor would bring this totally different set of skills and understanding, like a very European way of doing it, and he didn’t even have a degree out of it. It was just about building your portfolio.

JEN: Okay.

CHELSEA: But I learned like ten times out of him then I did my whole entire rest of my art training.

JEN: But you’re busy. You’re going to school.

CHELSEA: Oh yeah.

JEN: You’re passionate about your art, you’re taking care of your daughter. Could you kind of keep the dysphoria at bay if you just ran fast enough?

CHELSEA: Yeah. For that period, yes it was. I mean, it’s like it was my life right there, right? And it really was. That was probably the happiest I’d been just to be able to put myself in what I was doing and I was going to have this art career kind of a thing. But it’s just like a wildest dream kind of thing. And then the crap kind of hit the fan.

JEN: Go back because somewhere in there you had a son.

CHELSEA: That’s true.

JEN: Was that during illustration school?

CHELSEA: My wife was pregnant with our son while I was in that school, at that art school.

JEN: Okay.

CHELSEA: Yeah, but she was pregnant with our son at that art school. And I don’t know, just like the dysphoria was creeping a bit again, but for the most part, I could keep it at bay.

JEN: What did you do to keep it at bay? Did you have tricks?

CHELSEA: Yeah.

JEN: You don’t have to talk about them. I was just wondering if it was subconscious or if it was super conscious. You were like, “Okay. I’ve got to keep this at bay, so I’m going to watch a chick flick and grow out my hair and wear a ponytail.”

CHELSEA: I wish it was like that. No. It was more like – to back up – years before, years before I’d even met my ex, I remember one of the things I did was just like, “You know what, screw it. I’m going to get this out of my system. We have a big huge family reunion-ish kind of get together where there’s a big Halloween thing. And I’m going to take it out to the nines and I’m just going to get this out of my system kind of a thing.” And it was interesting because it was just like, I think my family members were like, “What the heck?” Because it didn’t read at all like there was somebody in drag, you know.

JEN: Take it to the nine, so you put on a costume that was super, super, super feminine. That’s what you mean by take it to the nines?

CHELSEA: Yeah. I mean, sorry, yes. Thank you. Thank you for the clarification. I went with my aunt to the thrift store and we got a whole bunch of things. And I didn’t want it to be costume-y.

JEN: Okay.

CHELSEA: But it was very much, for me personally it was like, I don't know. It was like being at home with myself kind of thing. But then I would see the reaction from my family when I’d get there. It’s all fun and games and they’re just like, “It’d deer in the headlights” around me kind of thing.

JEN: A little too realistic?

CHELSEA: A little too realistic, yes.

JEN: Okay. So, you pulled it off, is what you’re saying?

CHELSEA: Yeah. A little too well.

JEN: And how did your wife feel about that costume?

CHELSEA: This we, well before, well before, I’m going back in the sands of time to kind of set this up.

JEN: So, this is all part of like you’re developing skills to deal with the dysphoria?

CHELSEA: Yes. Yes. So, at the time, what would’ve been termed cross-dressing which doesn’t really feel like it applies to me at all. But at the time it sure did, right? And this was a way I could get it out of my system. I could legalize it without feeling like I was betraying my faith, my beliefs, kind of thing. And I don’t know. It was just interesting.

JEN: Did it get it out of your system or did it just amplify it?

CHELSEA: No. The thought was too, the reaction from my family members was so strong, from my parents, from some of my aunts and uncles and things. And I just like, alright, I’m throwing everything I got away. And I threw it away and I was just like, “I’m never wearing this stuff again” because I thought this must be evil kind of a thing.

JEN: So why do you think they responded? My older brother went as a woman one year for Halloween and we all thought it was hilarious. My mom helped him. And we come from the same religious background. Do you think there was something that your family suspected? Do you think there’s some reason that they took it more extremely?

CHELSEA: Yeah. Yeah.

JEN: I’m probably wording that wrong, but I’m curious about why they responded so strongly.

CHELSEA: Probably because of the early times when I would continue to want to sneak into my mom’s clothes and borrow those or my cousins or something like this. And several episodes along the way from middle school through high school and it was in the back of their minds like, “Oh, my word, we’ve got to be careful about them.” And the other thing that struck me is at that very thing, one of my other cousins who’s very cis/straight went in drag and it was very clear. It was very clear that he was in drag and it was honestly painfully clear looking back that I was not.

JEN: Okay. I can see that as family members when you’re trying to keep everything kind of quiet and encourage the norms. And then we didn’t do it very well. I can see that.

CHELSEA: So, it was clearly on their radar that I think a lot of them thought I was either gay, a cross dresser, other terms that they would use to kind of imagine me. They were still nice to me. They still cared about me. But you could tell they thought this was wrong.

JEN: So, is this the kind of thing you did in general to try to just keep it at bay. When you couldn’t take it anymore, You’re going to do some – I’m going to call it cross-dressing because you did.

CHELSEA: Yeah. Yeah it was. And just the reaction from my family horrified me. And so, at that time, I vowed to myself I’m not going to do this again.

JEN: So, when you got married and you were dating and meeting your now ex, did you tell her about any of this?

CHELSEA: I’m trying to remember.

JEN: Were you willing to just die with the secret.

CHELSEA: I think at one point I did. At one point I did. But the problem that built up was that I had no outlet to go with, right. And this was, once again, before I met my ex. I had no outlet to go with. And, oh gosh, I even remember doing research at the college one time into what somebody was transgender or transexual or whatever term you wanted to use for it just because I was like, “You can pull this off?”

JEN: You were like, “Wait a minute.”

CHELSEA: I know, right? and then as I got looking into it. But I could see how much, if they came from a religious background they were shunned to the point of wanting to drive themselves to suicide so often. And I just don’t think I could do that. I can’t abandon this thing that I care about so much which is my beliefs which is nonsense when you look at it now because the core parts of the beliefs has nothing to do with that. But I thought it was. And so, I ended up trying to – that was when the internet was first starting to come on.  And then I was like trying to find stories because I’ve always been driven by stories. I think it’s kind of the artist thing in me, right where you’re magically transformed into a girl kind of a thing, right? And that’s really what I wanted.

JEN: So, you were looking for stories of transformation. You weren’t looking for, like, how do people get rid of this.”

CHELSEA: No. I was doing both. But then when I saw what they would have to give up for that, then I kind of shut that to the side and I said, “Okay, this can’t be for me then.” That’s what I said at the time.

JEN: You’re blocking the benefit versus the risk.

CHELSEA: I was. I was doing a lot of that. And that was back, like in ’96 or something like that.

JEN: Make a cost/benefit analysis I guess?

CHELSEA: Very much so. And the internet’s limited resources at the time.

JEN: Things were pretty limited back then.

CHELSEA: They really were. They really were.

JEN: Now you can find thousands of stories.

CHELSEA: It’s insane.

JEN: You have to be talking like in the early aught’s right?

CHELSEA: It was in ’96.

JEN: Oh, so even in the ‘90s.

CHELSEA: IT was ’96. Yeah. This was in the ‘90s.

JEN: That’s when we knew how to look up the weather on the internet.

CHELSEA: It was dial up. It was dial up. You had to wait.

JEN: So, you were looking for some pretty limited stuff. There wasn’t a lot out there.

CHELSEA: No. There really wasn’t. And because I wanted to have something that – because I have a very vivid imagination – and I could kind of use this as kind of a coping mechanism to put myself in that kind of, throw myself into those stories. Just imagination in my mind kind of a thing. And that’s what I was trying to do. But the only way I could find what I was looking for was oftentimes in fetish-related stuff where it’s kind of more about sexual kind of a thing.

JEN: I can see that. So, did you start to think maybe you did have a sexual kink?

CHELSEA: Mm-hmm. That’s exactly what I thought. And for a while, for a long while after that, I had convinced myself probably about that point all the way through my marriage that’s exactly what it is and that’s all it could be kind of a thing.

JEN: So now we’ve just upped the shame.

CHELSEA: Yeah. And it was like this is the only outlet I have kind of a thing. And I would try to put it off and then I’d be drawn back to it. And then I’d put it off and it just magnified the shame ten-fold.

JEN: I can see that because now there’s so many more options and I think sometimes we forget how little there was.

CHELSEA: There could’ve been so much more things were like that, but there wasn’t.

JEN: The very, very same search engines, now, the very same search words would bring up completely different results for you now.

CHELSEA: Yeah.

JEN: That makes me sad.

CHELSEA: So, I was kind of like really, very trapped. Here I was trapped in this, the only way I have to do this is, because I’d sworn off of being able to dress up the way I felt more comfortable. That was sworn off. I can’t do that. I actually held to that. I held to that until I started my transition by the way. And so, it was 20-plus years I held to that.

JEN: So there was no lack of willpower

CHELSEA: No. But the stories thing was the hardest thing to kick, right, because it was like there was nothing left. And then you throw in the whole sexual part of things too and you were just so blinking confused and ashamed. And you’re just like, okay I just need to get rid of this. I tried to pray it away, which you’ve heard this a bazillion times and I was right along with that. That really kind of struck me when I was finally [inaudible] this. But I was just like I would just bawl my brains out and pray to see if this would go away. And for a while I’d see if I could find something to focus my energies into. And I always felt like if I got married that would probably do it. No, it only works for a little while but it’s a distraction.

JEN: And this is really, I think, helpful for our listeners to understand how the weird inaccurate misconception about being transgender and being a sex addict or some sort of deviant sexually –  you can see where those rumors and those myths started to come about because there was so much misunderstanding and so few resources at the beginning. We can look backwards and hear your story and be like, “Oh, that’s where they came up with this. And this is how we address it and fix it.”

CHELSEA: It is. It’s totally the wrong kind of thing. Totally the wrong kind of thing.

JEN: So, this was all before you got married?

CHELSEA: This is before I got married. And so, I had this in the background and I was just like I’ve got to find a way to kick this kind of a thing, right? So then fast forward into four years later when I was in Rupert and just trying to throw myself into that. I ended up getting married. And I’m like, “At last.” I seriously had that mindset of like at last I can finally.

JEN: Now I’m healed.

CHELSEA: My energy had gone into this person and I’m on the right track. It’s going to go away. And it came right back with a vengeance. And so, I was just like, okay, maybe having our kids because I wanted to have kids. And so, it’s just like maybe that’ll do it, right? And of course it doesn’t do it. And then you’re stuck in this little cycle that feels very much like a horror film where you’re just like you’ve built this world you care so much about and it’s just like you’re buried in a mountain of shame and guilt and stuff that you never even had to experience.

JEN: And a world that you not only created but that you love and aren’t interested in destroying.

CHELSEA: No. I was not. I really was not. And that was a hard thing.

JEN: So, at what point did you realize this isn’t going away and I need to address it officially?

CHELSEA: Oh, gall, Jen. You know, I think I was in such denial it was just I was willing to just let myself go to my grave with it kind of a thing. But what I would use for coping at the time, right, it just got to this point where I was so tired. I was tired in my heart and my soul, my body. I was like, I don't know, just not taking care of myself, not caring. And it was, you know, you could tell it was like hard on the marriage and things. And I got to this point where I do believe because it lasted that long, and I started getting really lose with not hiding it. I was so tired of that. And my ex found it and brought it up and brought it up to our church leaders, and that started this process. But, from her point of view, she could only see it from the fetish side of things, right, so that’s what it was.

JEN: So, you didn’t really chose?

CHELSEA: No, I really didn’t. I really didn’t because I was afraid of losing everything that I built up. And so, when my ex said we have to go and talk to our church leaders kind of a thing, I agreed. But at the same time, I was just like there’s more here. There’s more here. I cannot just let you think that this is just some sort of addiction thing because it’s way farther than that. And so, I wrestled with this probably like the first time.

JEN: I’m sorry. I just want to stop for a little bit and maybe argue that it wasn’t way farther but it was way different, like a different direction.

CHELSEA: Yeah.

JEN: It wasn’t beyond.

CHELSEA: Good clarification.

JEN: Just wanted to touch on that. It was just not at all – she was just out in left field. And you were like if we’re going to talk about this, at least we should be talking about the reality of it.

CHELSEA: Yeah. So, instead of that, then I decided that I’m just going to lay this out. I’m going to let you know about everything as far as I could understand it and see it at the time. And I wrote this big long letter about it, presented it to her.

JEN: How did you think it was going to go? Did you have hope?

CHELSEA: A little bit, but at the same time I was just like, “This is the end of it. This is most likely the end of it.” And I was just like shaking so fearful, and, you know, my ex read it in the bathroom or something like that and was in there for a couple hours or so. And came out and at first I thought because this isn’t your fault kind of a thing, whatever, but let’s take care of it. Unfortunately, at the time, I was just like, “Oh my gosh I can still keep my family. I can still keep these people I care about so much.” But, unfortunately, what I didn’t understand, which going on into this, was that she wanted to fix me, right? She wanted to put me back into this, like we need to reprogram you and that kind of a thing. And I found that out along the way that that was the way it was.

JEN: Was there some element of, in the midst of the terror, was there some element of relief of like whew, I’m out of the closet. Or were you just so scared you couldn’t think about that?

CHELSEA: No, totally. There was an insane amount of relief, an insane amount. It was like just this gigantic weight off my back while also being terrified as hell of losing them.

JEN: It kind of almost has that energy to me like when you want to jump off a cliff or jump off a diving board and you don’t really dare. So, then someone pushes you and you’re almost relieved, but you’re still scared the whole way down.

CHELSEA: Yeah. And it’s like, okay those are spikes that are coming up. Groovy. Okay.

JEN: Exactly. So how did it go? You came out. You decided to transition.

CHELSEA: With my ex, not well?

JEN: With everything.

CHELSEA: It’s wild because that was right around the time that I think that I first met you was in 2018 or ’19. I can’t remember if it was one of those. But that was after I’d come out to my ex. I was seeing a therapist. I was seeing my church leaders. I was praying. I was going to the temple. I was doing all these, just a bazillion things to try to do this. And I was doing some insane amount of soul searching. And the answers I felt I’d gotten were not what my ex thought they should be. And as that kind of progress, neither did my church leaders. And I progressively was more and more alienated and put into the side. And it was on this therapist’s job to fix me. And there’s a huge long story about it. It got really kind of ugly.

JEN: Were you participating in therapy at that point that was like reparative therapy?

CHELSEA: It was like a family services kind of thing at first, which is not known for being very good to work with for people that are struggling with gender dysphoria. But he actually had a very open mind and was trying to understand this and had gone to a conference that were trying to explore different options because they could see what they were doing was not working with people like me. But at the same time, his bosses were uppity-up church leaders who my ex got the word around to and basically kind of threatened his job. So, we had to end that relationship. I went to a different therapist. But both of these people were like, you can’t pray this away. This is not what people are saying it is. And we’re having to retrain these leaders to reform their minds because this is not the way to handle it. Anyway, I saw two therapist while I was in Twin Falls. And I ended up seeing two other therapists once I moved to Utah after the divorce. But things got really bad. I started to see that my relationship was kind of –  it wasn’t at all, kind of, what I thought it was. and I think my ex was more, I want to be careful about what I saw about my ex because I don’t want anybody to think negatively towards them. But at the same time, after coming out and kind of exploring this, they did some incredibly, incredibly awful things to me and to my kids that were based primarily out of fear. And that stuff didn’t need to happen. Since all that time, talking to people like Shannon Hanson for example has been on the podcast. She’s shown me texts from her ex and it’s just like this is alien to me. I can’t believe how kind and nice and things she’s being to you afterwards.

JEN: I’ve walked with many married people who have transitioned and all say hands down, you’re situation was not even close, absolutely the cruelest.

CHELSEA: Yeah. I remember you saying that too. I was like one of the worst you’d ever experienced. I was like, really? But you also helped me get some insight into that too. I think this was just about the time when my divorce had finalized and everything. But you mentioned something about a certain like, almost a jealousy kind of factor. And I was like, what the heck? Why on Earth would my ex be jealous of anything. And it came down to based off of fear once more that they would be losing their identity, their purpose. Which I was like, oh my gosh, there’s no way I would ever want to do that to another human being because I know exactly how that feels like. But that’s how my ex thought. I will say this, that I’ve learned a big hard lesson. When you’re possibly will-be ex comes to you with – saying they’ve hired a lawyer for both of you to work things out, do not go for that. Get your own lawyer to look after your own self-interested. And I’ve learned that very much the hard way.

JEN: I actually want to touch on that a little bit, obviously, without any personal details. But that is something that appears commonly.

CHELSEA: Is that right?

JEN: You, as the person who transitions, it’s really easy to take on the blame. I’m the one who change the rules. I’m the one who can’t control myself. I’m the one who’s destroying everything. There’s like an element of guilt especially if your partner’s not supportive, that can come along with that.

CHELSEA: Very much.

JEN: And then people get kind of stuck because they ended being like, “Of course you can have the house, and the kids, and the car, and 90% of my income in perpetuity to kind of alleviate guilt.” And so, I just want to toss that into the world for parents. If you have adult, married kids who are coming out, these are very common, very normal feelings that we want to be aware of to help avoid some of the trauma that comes after the fact when you’ve kind of shot yourself in the foot a little bit with that guilt. So, I’m glad that you brought that up because I kind of wanted to mention. But the goal is parenting, right, for us here. And I think a lot of us have kids who come out as trans in their 20s, 30s, 40s. And we’re still trying to figure out how to support them. And that’s something that we need to be super aware of it’s the guilt that they heap onto themselves. “It’s my fault. I knew all along. I should’ve never done this.” They just take on a lot of guilt that doesn’t really belong to them. So that’s good the bring up. So, all of that is your own journey. You started your transition. You moved, all of these things. But you weren’t a Mama Dragon. Being trans doesn’t make you a Mama Dragon. So go that direction for me a little bit. At one point you became a Mama Dragon which means, obviously, that you have a queer kid.

CHELSEA: I do.

JEN: Don’t tell her story, obviously, but just talk to me about your version of that.

CHELSEA: I know. I know. Okay. So, the thing is her story is also intwined with mine in a way because I was super close with her.

JEN: Of course.

CHELSEA: We just have connected on that level. And when I was basically kind of – I might as well say it – I was kicked out, right? And when that happened though, was that my daughter was put in this position. I mean, she’s just in middle school for heck’s sake and she’s struggling with her own self-image and conscious of identity, her own values, self-worth, and all these things. And my ex was actively trying to get my kids to think that I had thrown them away so I could go and chase some perverted fantasy lifestyle. And I found out that that’s exactly what my ex was telling my kids. And so, my daughter, trying to figure out, this didn’t make any sense but at the same time, this is what I’m supposed to do. And it just brought so many things to a head for her. And I don’t know when she started figuring it out. I think it’s been a process of things. Where was this time, it was like several months after the divorce or something like this, and I was working at a new school. Gosh, and I got this letter from my daughter saying that I don’t think it’s a good idea that we talk anymore, kind of a thing. And I cannot tell you how destroyed I was about that. Well, I could tell you because I did. I can’t remember if I texted or called, but you were my lifeline support to try to work my way through that. And it turned out, after the fact, this was something my ex was really pushing my daughter to do. Here’s why I wanted to go back to that is because what this did to my daughter, right, because my daughter was starting to waken this concept that she didn’t really like boys, she liked girls. And seeing how my ex was treating me and wanting to have them treat me and my family treat me, you know what that says to her. Like anybody who’s queer, who’s LGBT, things like that, right?

JEN: And it wasn’t just your family. You were kicked out of your town, essentially.

CHELSEA: Pretty much, yeah.

JEN: To protect your kids at this point.

CHELSEA: I was.

JEN: So, she was hearing and she was kind of absorbing some pretty – I would say – intense ideas about what it meant to be queer socially.

CHELSEA: It was. Yeah. She was even going in for youth leader interviews trying to figure out it she’s LGBT as well. I’m like, why are you even asking her this kind of stuff? Or are you asking with good faith and intent or are you trying to snare them and keep them away from their parent’s evil kind of a thing? But somewhere along the way we reconnected and it was okay for me to go ahead and keep on seeing them because I would drive from Salt Lake – well a little bit more than Salt Lake – to back to Twin every other weekend just to see them, just to spend time with them, just to try and connect. And for a bit there after my daughter wrote that, I was still seeing my son. So, I’d still go and spend some time with him. But then it came out that she really did want to spend time with me but she couldn’t let on to my ex that that was the case. But, nonetheless, it opened to door back up again and this one particular time where I’d taken her to my folk’s place and she just wanted to go for a drive. And oh my gosh, just the floodgates opened and she was just pouring her heart out to me. And it was an intense emotional moment where we both connected. It reopened the path for us kind of thing that wasn’t even closed by either of us, do you know what I mean?

JEN: Did she come out to you during that conversation?

CHELSEA: I can’t remember if it was that or because we’d had that and she felt that it was okay to start sharing with me. But sometime in that spring she did, she came out to me. She did not come out to my ex. The only two people that have known that I know of so far are me and her brother. But there was just like she felt she could trust me. And thank heaven – I think of some of the horrible crappy things that I’ve experienced but at the same time, my gosh this is one of the few things I can say – Thank heaven I had the experience I did because I can be ridiculously open-minded for my daughter. I don’t care who you like, you know. It’s just like you’re my daughter. I love you. And I would welcome in anybody that you date because I trust her.

JEN: Yeah. So, it sounds like your own journey prepared you for having a child come out.

CHELSEA: Huge. Huge. Huge. Yes.

JEN: Did you suspect before she told you?

CHELSEA: Maybe a little bit. Not as much as she suspected of me. Let’s just say that.

JEN: Okay.

CHELSEA: Really she’d guess very, very close about eight months before I ended up being allowed – “Allowed” – to tell them. But anyway, things were so hard there and my ex was fighting so hard against some of that kind of stuff. And they butted heads and she actually had a moment where she actually made an attempt. I called my ex, had her get right out there and talk to her and try to turn this around. And my ex immediately got her scheduled for a – they got her sent to an institution, right, to help her out with this. And I basically talked to her every single day throughout that. And it was so rough. But my daughter, knowing full well that there was no way she could live under that roof very much longer. And I was just like, come stay with me. I know I don’t have much, but you’re welcome to stay. So, anyway, that summer she ended up coming to stay with me and she’s been with me ever since. And it’s been a rough road.

JEN: That must be hard.

CHELSEA: It really has been.

JEN: With your own journey, had you experienced any suicide ideation yourself?

CHELSEA: Yeah.

JEN: I find that my own experience with that helped a ton when my child started to 

go through that.

CHELSEA: That’s true.

JEN: I could relate. But I don’t know if anyone else would agree with this. I might get in trouble for saying this. But I think it was harder to have a kid experiencing that then it was to experience it myself.

CHELSEA: 100%. 100%.

JEN: I’m not trying to minimize how difficult it is by any stretch when it’s yourself.

CHELSEA: I know.

JEN: But there’s something about not being able to save your child from that that maybe worse when you’ve experienced it because you know what it feels like.

CHELSEA: 110%, Jen. I was so insanely distraught. The night that that had happened and she was hospitalized, I drove right down there.

JEN: Yeah. You were living in Salt Lake at the time and she was in Twin Falls, Idaho.

CHELSEA: Yep. And I drove down there and just wanted to see what I could do. I don’t know if I was allowed at that time or if my ex was fighting it or something like that. But basically, she was escorted off without any parental escort off to Meridian from Twin. And it freaked her out as well. So, I wanted to make sure she could connect with me. So, I got to where I’d call her every single evening and we’d talk. And it just kind of became kind of a lifeline so thank heaven we had that.

JEN: And how is she doing now?

CHELSEA: She has a lot of struggling moments but she is so blossoming, so much more so than she was before. It’s just like it’s so cool to see her delving into life again after having this huge period of wanting to give up. And just like actually hearing her say these words after it’s been almost three years or something like this, where it’s like, there’s a lot I want to actually live for. There was a period that I didn’t even want to get to 20. You know, so it’s huge.

JEN: It makes me, kind of like you said, like your own journey. I already said it but you’re journey was one of the more socially painful and traumatic ones that I have ever heard. And I just think of how much that impacted your daughter and it hurts my heart. If you had been received differently, even if some of the results, even if the divorce had still happened or whatever, if you had been received differently how different her journey would’ve been because she was a little middle schooler when she was hearing these really horrible, horrible things.

CHELSEA: Exactly. Exactly.

JEN: It just reminds me how important it is that we’re, even when we don’t know, the things we are saying about other people matter because we don’t really know who’s always with us. Talk to me. what does life look like now for you.

CHELSEA: Life right now it’s, the struggle is all just financial, really. I’m still under the weight of that contract that I had to sign. And that’ll continue until I believe my son gets out of high school which will probably be in a couple of years. We’ll see. I’m anticipating some push-back. But I’ve really kind of grown out of that mindset that I had previously where it’s all guilt, shame, it’s my fault kind of a thing. I’ve had some growing that I’ve done since then. We’ve both done a lot of healing. So, we’re managing. We ended up moving – I was in Utah teaching for a while there. And had, it was so cool because the school that I moved to right after when I came from Twin, I was there for two, maybe three, months. and I was like, I need to get out of here. Oh gosh. And I’d stayed at my previous school for ten years, right? So, I went to a school for autistic kiddos and the principal was just amazing. At that time, I was very much closed off, transitioning. Like not outwardly expressing, but nonetheless, I mean, it was pretty darn clear where I was going.

JEN: You were baby stepping, right?

CHELSEA: I really was. Everyone was like, oh my gosh, you are way out there on the limb from where you were. But I wanted to make sure it was just me at this place. I don’t have to deal with any of the back story because I’d had enough of that kind of crap. And they were great. So, I basically started working at the one school as myself and that was fantastic. I ended up getting some insurance that helped me with some transitional needs that were just amazing, like just life-changing awesome. So even though they were hard to recover from, but nonetheless, every day I’m just like, “Oh my gosh. Thank Heaven that wasn’t the case.” Because I don’t know how I even got the insurance to cover that through Utha. It was somewhere buried back in the closets for the insurance. And I found it, it’s right here. So they covered it and then the changed the insurance afterwards.

JEN: Okay. So, I can’t let you go without asking this which you might not even want to answer. But you have kids who still live in Idaho.

CHELSEA: I do, my son.

JEN: And you were a trans person who lived in Idaho for a little bit and in Utah and in Las Vegas. And talk to me about what you’re doing following politics and living in different places and feeling safe to move. You still have to come visit your son.

CHELSEA: Yes.

JEN: I guess you don’t have to. You want to still visit your son and spend time with your son. I made that sound like a job.

CHELSEA: Thanks, Jen. Wow, what a chore. Exactly.

JEN: What is the difference between different states? Can you feel the energy?

CHELSEA: Oh, yes. You can definitely feel the energy, right? Not from individuals, but the energy in general is so judgy, so hostile going across the borderlines. It’s insane. I’m grateful for the time I’ve spent here in Vegas. It’s not our scene. We miss the green. We miss the mountains. We miss certain aspects of being back there. But, man alive, the people are just so much less – I don’t care, you’re fine. And there, it’s just like ever present in your mind every waking hour, minute. Right? And people just looking at you differently because I am tall. I am a little bit on the bigger side. And most people don’t even blink twice, they just see me. That’s it. But nonetheless, I’m always worried as can be about what people are going to do. Are they going to try to raise a fuss? Are they going to try to raise a fight? Are they going to recognize or think that I’m trans and start trying to ask a cop to come interrogate me or some nonsense? It just, it’s horrible. So, I’ve been following the politics quite a bit and that is harsh. It’s very harsh.

JEN: And do you consider moving to a sanctuary state? Nobody calls themselves a sanctuary state, but we know which ones they are.

CHELSEA: Yes. Yes, and Yes. It is actually on our minds to do exactly that because I mean, I feel just – I can’t express enough how awful I feel for those people that have no other choice, right? Or are just going to stay because of the way things are heading. And we definitely have our eyes set on a sanctuary state or two. And as soon as we have the monetary means to do so without putting ourselves in another hole again, we will do it.

JEN: Yeah. Moving’s expensive.

CHELSEA: Yeah.

JEN: I want to thank you, Chelsea, for sharing your story with us. I don’t know if the listeners will be able to tell, but you’re kind of an amazingly private person. You’re like above average private. So, I probably only got you to do this because we’re friends. I know you don’t love the lime-light. You’re not going to be super excited to see your face shining out from social media.

CHELSEA: Yeah.

JEN: So, I particularly appreciate someone – I don’t want to use the word shy but private – someone as private as you, I appreciate your willingness to speak out and try to smooth the path and make the journey a little bit more gentle for other people even though it kind of makes you a little uncomfortable.

CHELSEA: Well, if I could add to that one thing, a big part of what drives that privacy is both my experience with teaching. When I started teaching, the one thing that they would drill horror stories in your head of getting on social media and being connected to anything that wouldn’t be school approved kind of a thing. So, I had just, for a long time, just said, “All right. I’m not doing social media at all.” I never even got into Facebook until I finally started my transition. I was just like, I need to find a lifeline or two. And then now that I’m on, it was I could see the benefits of trying to share my story. I wanted to. But I was also afraid that if my ex would find out about me being more vocal about it, that she would make life infinitely more difficult for either my son or my daughter. And so, I chose to kind of be a lot more quiet about it because of that.

JEN: You’re consistent focus on what would be safest for your kids and most gentle for your kids is admirable.

CHELSEA: Thank you.

JEN: Thank you. Thank you for coming and sharing with us. You’re awesome.

CHELSEA: Likewise, I appreciate you so much.

JEN: Thanks for joining us here In the Den. If you enjoyed this episode, please tell your friends, and take a minute to leave a positive rating and review wherever you listen. Good reviews make us more visible and help us reach more folks who could benefit from listening. And if you’d like to help Mama Dragons in our mission to support, educate, and empower the parents of LGBTQ children, please donate at mamadragons.org or click the donate link in the show notes. For more information on Mama Dragons and the podcast, you can follow us on Instagram or Facebook or visit our website at mamadragons.org.