The Intersection of Religion and Queer Identities

When they find out that their child is somewhere on the LGBTQ+ spectrum, parents are often forced to examine their faith in entirely new ways, and it’s hard stuff–earth shifting, ground shaking, life changing, relationship destroying sort of hard. Today’s In the Den guest is an expert at courageous conversations in the religious realm, because it isn’t just the individuals that are wrestling with the topic of religion and spirituality, but many religious organizations themselves. Special guest Bishop Karen Oliveto talks with Jen about the intersection of religion and LGBTQ+ identities. 

Special Guest: Bishop Karen P. Oliveto

Karen Oliveto was consecrated as a bishop of The United Methodist Church on July 16, 2016 in Scottsdale, Ariz., and assigned for the 2016-2020 quadrennium to the Mountain Sky Episcopal Area, which includes 320 congregations in Colorado, Montana, Wyoming, Utah, and a small section of Idaho. Bishop Oliveto was elected to the episcopacy after serving as the first woman pastor of the 12,000-member Glide Memorial United Methodist Church in San Francisco, Calif. She is the first woman to serve as senior pastor of one of The United Methodist Church’s 100 largest congregations. 

Bishop Oliveto is the co-author of Talking About Homosexuality: A Congregational Resource, and the author of Our Strangely Warmed Hearts: Coming Out into God's Call and Together at the Table: Diversity without Division in The United Methodist Church.

She has the distinction of being the first openly lesbian bishop in The United Methodist Church. She and her wife, Robin Ridenour, a nurse anesthetist and United Methodist deaconess, met in Junior High Church Camp and have been together for 25 years. They were married in 2014. Bishop Oliveto was named by NBC as one of 30 contemporary LGBTQ change-makers as part of their #Pride50 series. She was also named one of the Faith Leaders to Watch in 2021 by the Center for American Progress. 

Links from the Show:

• Learn more about Bishop Oliveto here: https://www.unitedmethodistbishops.org/person-detail/2463386
• Bishop Oliveto on FB: https://www.facebook.com/BishopOliveto/
• Find Bishop Oliveto’s books here: https://www.amazon.com/stores/Karen-P.-Oliveto/author/B001KI75ZO?ref=dbs_a_mng_rwt_scns_share&isDramIntegrated=true&shoppingPortalEnabled=true
• Join Mama Dragons today at www.mamadragons.org 

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Transcript

JEN: Hello and welcome to In The Den with Mama Dragons. I’m your host, Jen. This podcast was created to walk and talk with you through the journey of raising happy, healthy, and productive LGBTQ humans. Thanks for listening. We’re glad you’re here.

One thing that we have absolutely noticed in the past decade or so of Mama Dragons is that a lot of the people who are seeking support come from more traditional religious backgrounds. I know that tackling my own theology was one of the more difficult aspects for me. When you find out that your own child is somewhere in the LGBTQ+ spectrum, parents are often forced to examine their faith in entirely new ways. And it is hard stuff. Earth shifting, ground shaking, life changing, relationship destroying sort of hard for many of us. We are aware, at Mama Dragons, of the need for many families to deconstruct their personal faith traditions. And the need for others to walk away from those traditions. We acknowledge that there has been a lot of harm caused by a variety of congregations and types of faiths around the world. And it can take a lot of work to heal from that. And we acknowledge that a lot of people find comfort and health in their faith tradition and struggle to find the balance. 

Today we have invited a special guest, who is an expert at courageous conversations in the religious realm, because it isn’t just the individuals and families that are wrestling with the topic of religion and spirituality, but many religious organizations themselves. And one of the most obvious examples of this wrestle might be the Methodist Church. Our guest today has been at the center of this wrestle.

Bishop Karen P. Oliveto grew up in her local United Methodist Church, being active in Sunday School and the youth group, believing from an early age that God was calling her into ministry. She has earned a B.A. in Psychology, a Masters in Divinity, a Masters in Philosophy, and a PhD in the Sociology of Religion. Bishop Oliveto was consecrated as a bishop of the United Methodist Church on January 16th, 2016, and is the first openly lesbian bishop in The United Methodist Church. She and her wife, Robin Ridenour, who is a nurse anesthetist and United Methodist deaconess, met in junior high church camp and have been together for 25 years. They were married just ten years ago in 2014. Bishop Oliveto was named by NBC as one of 30 contemporary LGBTQ change-makers. 

She was also named one of the Faith Leaders to Watch in 2021 by the Center for American Progress. So anyone listening will hear how excited I am to speak with her today. Welcome! Welcome to In the Den, Bishop Karen.

BISHOP KAREN: Thank you, Jen. It’s great to be here with you. 

JEN: I’d like to start our conversation by learning a little bit more about your personal journey, discovering that you were a lesbian, learning who you were, and at this young age, feeling called to ministry when you were very young. 

BISHOP KAREN: Yeah. Well, boy, spirituality and sexuality are so entwined, aren’t they? And at an early age, I fell in love with God. As soon as I stepped foot in Sunday School as a little kid, I knew I was home. I loved the stories of faith. I loved the songs that taught me those stories. And I just got more and more involved. Until, at eleven, my music minister said, “What do you want to be when you grow up?” And I said, “An astronomer.” And he said, “Did you ever think about being a Pastor?” And my mind was blown because I had never seen a woman be a Pastor. But where did I feel most at home? Where did I know God’s love? Where did, even at eleven, I was being invited to use my gifts? And I just knew that that’s what God was calling me to do. Now, if that doesn’t set you apart from your friends, first of all, having been called by God when you’re eleven, but I always knew there was something different about me and I didn’t have a name for it. 

JEN: In addition to your religiousness? 

BISHOP KAREN: In addition, yeah. And I didn’t have a name for it. But I watched my friends. And I just wasn’t feeling the things they were feeling. And I didn’t know why until I got to seminary. 

JEN: Oh, how old is that? 

BISHOP KAREN: I was 22. It was after my undergrad work. 

JEN: Okay. 

BISHOP KAREN: And I went to Seminary in Berkeley, California, Pacific School of Religion. And half of the students were gay and lesbian. This is 1980. 

JEN: Really? 

BISHOP KAREN: And they were living out and proud lives. And their stories sounded a lot like mine. And suddenly all the pieces started to make sense.

JEN: Okay.

BISHOP KAREN: What’s fascinating, Jen, God had always been such an incredibly powerful presence in my life. And that first year of seminary, God was silent for the first time. 

JEN: Oh. 

BISHOP KAREN: And I couldn’t figure out why is God so quiet? What’s happening? And my life was making sense but did I want to claim it? Because, you know, the world doesn’t tell you, “Oh, good. You’re a lesbian.” 

JEN: And certainly not back then.

BISHOP KAREN: Not back then. I literally hopped on a bus and ran away from Seminary my first year.

JEN: Where did you go?

BISHOP KAREN: I hopped on the bus in Oakland, California and took it to Nova Scotia. That’s about as far as you can run away and still be in North America. 

JEN: Yeah.

BISHOP KAREN: So my grandparents were up there. But I cried and cried and cried and cried. And I read the bible. And somewhere in Utah, which is ironic because now it’s one of the states I cover as a Bishop, totally spent of tears, I finally said, “I’m a lesbian.” And God was there. 

JEN: And he said, “I already knew.” 

BISHOP KAREN: Yeah, well, I experienced that peace which passes all understanding. And I learned, God never leaves us. We run from God when we run from who God creates us to be. And once I said those words, those four words, “I am a lesbian,” my life made sense. I felt more grounded and empowered and more connected to God than I had for all that previous year. 

JEN: Did you just say them to yourself at this point? 

BISHOP KAREN: I did at that point, yes. And spent the summer saying, “Okay, what does this mean? I don’t know what this means. This is who I am now.” But the first time I kissed a woman, it was like, “Oh, I understand how my straight friends felt when they kissed.” This is so natural. This is so right. And this is again, wow, the peace was just so profound. 

JEN: We hear that a lot because we don’t know what we don’t know. 

BISHOP KAREN: Right. And the world doesn’t give us a roadmap for coming out. 

JEN: No. 

BISHOP KAREN: So you’re on a road with no map trying to figure out your way. 

JEN: So, on that note, you’re in seminary. You come out to yourself. What was your coming out journey to other people? Did you start in school?

BISHOP KAREN: Well, that was the wonderful thing in seminary. There was no closet. And everybody said, I get back for my second year and everybody’s like, “Oh, Oliveto. It’s about time. It’s about time. We all knew. We all knew.” And isn’t that true too. How many parents kind of have an inkling that their kid’s different. But, again, the world doesn’t give you “This might be who your kid might be.” And so you’re just kind of broken hearted knowing your kid isn’t fitting in right. 

JEN: Yeah. Trying to balance. So this is probably a really elementary question. I don’t know a ton about seminary in the Methodist church. When you say you were at seminary, was everybody there – was it a Methodist seminary at that point?

BISHOP KAREN: It was an Ecumenical Seminary. And there’s a three-year Master’s program, Master of Divinity. That is a part of the ordination process. So there’s also then the nondenominational work. But the educational work is the three-year program. 

JEN: Okay. So this was, at this point yet, Methodist specific. And then you’re at school. You’re coming out. Everybody’s happy. You’re getting your degree. And you go into Ministry. Was there an expectation of you at that point as a lesbian minister? 

BISHOP KAREN: Well, back then, again this is 1983, you knew you were going to live a closeted life. Not just clergy, just about everybody was living a very closeted life. Even though Stonewall had happened, eleven years earlier, twelve, fourteen years earlier. But in the Methodist church, I knew if I was going to be a faithful ordained minister, I would need to live a closeted life and just knew that was the cost of discipleship for me. 

JEN: Did that mean, also, a celibate life? 

BISHOP KAREN: You know, God’s funny. Love comes into your life, right? I mean, love is of God and God is love. And so I fell in love but had to live very closeted, very closeted. 

JEN: Did you expect to be celibate and then you were caught off guard?

BISHOP KAREN: I did. I did. I did. Yeah, because, again, I had never had an interest in any kind of romantic or sexual relationship before coming out. So I’m like, okay. I’m a lesbian but that doesn’t mean I’m going to be sexually active. But then love came into my life. And, again, there’s a part in the bible where people always say “This is why it’s a sin. They gave up ‘natural’ for unnatural desires.” You know that? 

JEN: Mm-hmm. 

BISHOP KAREN: And it’s not an unnatural desire for me. It’s very natural. The unnatural desire would be if I tried to be with a man. Just like a straight person trying to be with a same-gender person. That’s unnatural. So I just think that we forget that God is incredibly creative beyond ourselves. And why is it so hard for us to rejoice in our differences because they’re God-given differences. 

JEN: So, you met Robin in junior high? 

BISHOP KAREN: Well, it was junior high church camp, but we were adults. 

JEN: Oh, OK. 

BISHOP KAREN: I know. Everybody, no. So Robin was the camp nurse and I was the camp program director. And that was about 30, over 30 years ago. 

JEN: OK. So that makes more sense because you were 25 . . . 

BISHOP KAREN: Right. Right. Right. Oh, she’s awfully young looking. 

JEN: Exactly. So you dated in a closeted, underground sort of way for a long time.

BISHOP KAREN: I did. 

JEN: And then what changed and you decided, that’s it. We’re getting married.

BISHOP KAREN: Well, it was interesting because I did this dance because I was a Pastor then in San Francisco. And my congregation expected me to be out. And the city in which I did ministry expected me to be out. If I was to have integrity, I needed to be out. But I had this church, this denomination that said homosexuals can’t be ordained and they can’t serve in the church. And so I walked this really interesting tightrope of being out in my local church and very supported, out in the city in the ecumenical work I did and the political work I did. But then, when it came to stepping foot into denominational activities, I had to be very closeted. Until, you know, I didn’t ever come out to the church. I just lived more fully me and let those who have eyes see. 

JEN: And I’m going to say that there's a lot of us who don’t see what we don’t want to see.

BISHOP KAREN: Exactly. Exactly. And so most people, they saw me as a great pastor. They didn’t say, “Oh, there’s that great lesbian pastor.” But those who then, when they realized, the fruits of my ministry was what swayed them to say, “Maybe I need to rethink how I feel about homosexuality.” 

JEN: Once we know someone, it’s really hard to maintain those myths and misconceptions that we’ve been fed. 

BISHOP KAREN: It really is.

JEN: So inside of your congregation, it sounds like you had acceptance. Theologically, in the broader scope of the Methodist church, at some point did you have to say to yourself, “I think the church might be wrong on this one.” 

BISHOP KAREN: Oh, I knew the church was wrong on this one. And here’s why. The church, from a young age, taught me that God loves me unconditionally. That I am a beloved child of God and there’s nothing I can do to break that love. But suddenly, when the church started to make these anti-LGBTQIA rules, it made God’s love conditional. And I knew that was wrong. I knew that was false teaching.  

JEN: Originally, the Methodists, if I understand correctly, the Methodists didn’t really have a lot to say about it in general. 

BISHOP KAREN: Correct. We didn’t. 

JEN: But then they started saying stuff like after you were already kind of in, right? 

BISHOP KAREN: Well, so I was eleven years old when I had my call to ministry. When I was 12, actually no, anyways, I was a little older. The church in 1972 was making its social statements. What’s the church’s social teaching. And Stonewall had just happened. And the people rioting that knew they had to say something about gay liberation. And so they had this beautiful paragraph, “Homosexuals are no less than heterosexuals. They’re people of sacred worth and worthy of the church’s ministry.” It was beautiful. It wasn’t, “Yay for gay people!” It wasn’t condemning. It was Pastoral. But when the body that was adopting it met, they had a fierce debate and someone added, “However, we do not condone the practice of homosexuality and consider it incompatible with Christian teaching.” In 1972. And after that, all the other anti-queer legislation rested on that. 

JEN: I actually Googled those and I know exactly what you’re talking about. I saw the first one and it’s so beautiful and loving. 

BISHOP KAREN: Stunning.

JEN: And all the sudden there’s this kind of little jabby sentence at the end. 

BISHOP KAREN: It’s jarring. It’s horribly jarring. 

JEN: I did see that. So in 2016, you’re ordained as a Bishop in the church. First, explain to our listeners who might not know what it means in the Methodist tradition to be a Bishop and what sort of response did you get to being ordained as a Bishop.

BISHOP KAREN: Consecrated as a bishop.

JEN: Oh, alright.

BISHOP KAREN: So, yeah, all those liturgical language, right? In the United Methodist Church our polity is we have Pastors, and then we have some people who are set apart as Bishops who are consecrated for that work who oversee large regions of the church. And so I oversee Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, Utah, and one church in Salmon, Idaho. 320 churches I oversee and supervise the pastors. 

JEN: That's a huge number of churches.

BISHOP KAREN: It’s 43,000 square miles. And my job, my primary job is to deploy pastors to churches. So, Jen, let’s say I’m looking at your file and I see your gifts and I say, “You know, we really need Jen over in Haver, Montana.” And I would call you up and say, “Jen, I would like you to consider this. I would like to send you to Haver.” And that’s my job to match church needs with clergy skills. 

JEN: Okay. When you were consecrated as a Bishop, at that time you had been working as a Pastor in San Francisco. Is that the jump? 

BISHOP KAREN: So I was Pastor of a 12,000 member church, Glide Memorial. And I was very clear that I had finished what God wanted me to do at Glide. But I wasn’t sure what God and the Bishop would want of me next. And so I was really in discernment. And people started to say, “Karen, we think you have a call to the Episcopacy. Would you consider being a Bishop?” And I love the church. I am a self-avowed practicing Metho-nerd. I mean, I just love the United Methodist Church. I’ve taught United Methodist studies in seminary. And I was concerned. I was concerned what my election would mean to a very – at that time – a very fragile church because there was such division. And so friends sat down with us and said, “We need to know by Sunday night if you feel called, because on Wednesday – the following Wednesday – we need to lift your name up.” So Robin and I spent Saturday really in prayer. And I said, am I called to this. And I said, “Robin, I realize, I’m really afraid. I am afraid of what this might do to the church that I love. And I’m afraid of what it might do to us.” And she looked at me and she quoted scripture. She said, “But Karen, perfect love casts out all fear.” So I went to bed that night realizing “I’m probably going to say yes to the call tomorrow.” We woke up to the Pulse Nightclub shooting which you’ll recall was in Florida, a gay nightclub where many, many scores of people were killed. And I realized the killing will continue until people like me sit around in places of power and authority and can have a witness. And so I said yes and the Holy Spirit really took over. I mean, we didn’t know what was going to happen, but I was endorsed by my annual conference and then we moved on to the jurisdictional conference and I always was the number one vote. But didn’t get over the top because the 100 delegates of lay-clergy who were voting, knew that if they elected me it would cause an explosion in the church. And so they had a meeting of all the delegates and they said “We want you to be in small groups. What would happen to your church, to our conference, to our denomination if we elected an openly gay bishop.” And it’s funny, as all these small groups were talking, each group the question changed. It was so organic. And each group started to wrestle with what would happen if the most qualified person for this moment in the life of the church is gay and we don’t elect them. And I was elected after that conversation. 

JEN: So after you were elected, what kind of response actually did happen within the church? 

BISHOP KAREN: I received hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of emails from people saying “Because of you, my kid wants to go back to church. Because of you, my grandchildren now have hope that they can be who they are. Because of you, I’m still here.” I can’t tell you how many people said, “I’m still here on this earth because of you.” and it helped me realize the polity of the church didn’t keep up with the people in the pews. However, I did get a lot of pushback of, I had to appear before our judicial council which is our form of the Supreme Court to see whether or not I could still be a Bishop. People in the alt-right movement started to attack me. I needed a bodyguard for 18 months. 

JEN: Wow. That’s scary.

BISHOP KAREN: I had a lot of death threats. We had to pull my public calendar off the websites. Wherever I preached there was a police presence for about 18 months. And then COVID hit and people had other concerns and the world changed. And the world changed. Again, we talked earlier, that proximity. The more you know people the more hearts and minds change. 

JEN: So I didn’t realize it had been that scary. On the periphery of someone who cares LGBTQ+ news, I was aware that there was some conversations and tensions boiling. But recently, big huge event, fantastic news. Tell us what happened. 

BISHOP KAREN: Yeah, well, so in 2019, first I have to say this, in 2019, the church met and we really thought we were going to pass legislation that said we were going to live and let live. That if you were a traditionalist, we were going to let you be a traditionalist. If you’re progressive, we’re going to let you be progressive. Which meant that queer people, there was going to be a place for them in the church somewhere. But the traditionalists worked the vote and passed even more punitive and restrictive legislation into our book of discipline. And they over-reached. And the US church just did so much pushback. I had so many people saying to me – here we’ve been living for 50 years, this anti-LGBTQ language -- but I had people, because I had been present and living openly, saying “Can you believe the church is now homophobic?” And I’m like, “Yeah. It’s been for a while.” But, again, once we live into something, you forget where we were before. And so what happened was the traditionalists really thought the centralists and progressives would have to leave. And it turned out, they had to leave. And about 25% of the church, of the denomination, exited between 2020 and 2023. So when we met in 2024, there was such consensus. There was no fighting. And in fact, we removed the ban on LGBTQ clergy with only 51 No votes out of more than 800 votes. That’s how much the church changed.

JEN: The number I saw was 93%. 

BISHOP KAREN: Yeah. Yeah. No, it was and we just passed it and it was like, “Okay. Move on to the next thing.” And we left such a totally different church. And there’s such joy and we’re doing de-peeling work because there have been queer people who have been really harmed by – you know, there were people who lost their orders. And it’s so powerful to see them receiving their credentials, their ordination credentials back. And people apologizing for the harm. We still have a lot of work to do. But there is joy in our denomination in a way that there hasn’t been for many, many years. 

JEN: So you talked about some people leaving during that timespan. But, in 2019, when they voted no or against inclusivity, you were a Bishop. 

BISHOP KAREN: I was a Bishop.

JEN: So, what were you supposed – they voted no and you’re sitting as a Bishop. What were you supposed to do? 

BISHOP KAREN: Oh, I really thought I, so January 1 was when the new rules were going to go in effect, January 1, 2020. And I really thought I’m going to need to retire and get out. But then you watched this movement of the spirit as church after church said that legislation isn’t reflective of who we are as United Methodist at least in the United States. We are going to continue to be open and welcoming and affirming. And so I knew I had a place and a role because I represented a lot of hope for people. 

JEN: So, other than the more conservative people walking away, that’s a pretty huge change between, that’s in five years you got this monster change to the point where 93% vote to be affirming and inclusive. What happened to get that big of change in just five years? That’s just a tiny bit of time. 

BISHOP KAREN: No. It is. And I think part of it was that the groundswell from people – Ruth Bader Ginsburg said something that I thought was fascinating. She said that one of the reasons why civil rights has been so slow and gay rights has taken off exponentially is because when people start coming out, it’s our daughter. It’s our favorite teacher. It’s our music minister. It’s people we know and love and so we become committed to change for them. The reason why civil rights has been so much slower is we still live largely segregated lives. And I think what happened was, by the time we got to 2019, we’d already had marriage for a while, legalized marriage. I think enough people knew people they loved who were LGBTQ and they just said the church isn’t right on this. And so the traditionalists just didn’t have – they, I think, thought they had more supporters than they did. This is what concerns me. They built a church solely on leaving gay people out. 

JEN: What is the name of that group now? 

BISHOP KAREN: The Global Methodist Church. 

JEN: Global, okay.

BISHOP KAREN: And so that their whole thing was based on that. And I just have to wonder, if you build a church based on who you’re leaving out, have you let Jesus in? 

JEN: That seems really problematic. 

BISHOP KAREN: Yeah. 

JEN: What’s been the response, you probably at the center of all of this debate and discussion and education for so long, the media hit. And I started Googling you just in preparation for this conversation. And I have to admit, I was really surprised at the number of TikTok videos and podcasts and articles that were just directing anger and animosity directly at you. I expected to see some news reports where they interviewed you. But there’s actually a significant amount of – the only word I can think of is animosity. 

BISHOP KAREN: Well, that’s what I said, 18 months of a body guard because of those things. There was a well-funded, organized effort to discredit me and my ministry. And a willingness to destroy the area that I serve. That’s what we’re up against. So I’m not surprised. I do a number, I mean, Liz called me and said, “Will you do our podcast?” Of course. Of course. I don’t say no because I know one, by just being me, I know I’ve saved lives. And so I will do that as often, I will say yes as often as I can. But the ones that have the money are the ones that pop up. and how they’ve distorted my message. One of things that pops up when you Google my name, you’ve probably seen it, there’s a picture of me with a sign saying, “We’re all Muslim.” 

JEN: I did see that.

BISHOP KAREN: Well, let me tell you, they’ve used that so much against me. And I mean, the horrible, ugly, I mean, disgusting things that people have written about that, one, showed me how much Islamophobia there is in this world. But the reason why I did that sign is because right after Mother Emmanuel the bible study that got shot up by the young man who killed – there was a movement on social media. Everybody wore signs saying We’re all Mother Emmanuel, right?

JEN: Yeah.

BISHOP KAREN: Basic religious understanding, when one of us suffers, we all suffer because we’re all one. 

JEN: That’s what I took from your sign. 

BISHOP KAREN: Right, no. Exactly. So a couple of weeks later, the same thing happened in a Mosque. And so, again, we stood in solidarity. We’re all Muslim. And for Christians to come at me with such hate when what God did, God identified with us so completely that God sent Jesus. And we’re called to identify that closely with one another that we become one with each other. And I’m like, this is basic theology and you’re critiquing me. You’re not critiquing me. You’re wanting to harm me because of my commitment to stand with those who suffer no matter who they are. 

JEN: It just reminded me how I talked at the beginning about how some of this deconstruction stuff is hard. And you’re out there in the forefront absolutely saving lives and clearly changing the world. But it’s not without pushback. 

BISHOP KAREN: Pushback and cost.

JEN: Yeah. You’re taking some pretty heavy fire. So has the, in general – I don’t know enough about theology, you’ll have to tell me – but it seems like this one of the largest church schisms that I’ve ever seen in recent religious history – we can go back to ancient England or whatever – but in recent religious history, this is a big one. This was a big battle and a big divide. Do you have regrets? 

BISHOP KAREN: Well, I really didn’t want to see a division. I really believe that we, again, diversity is a sign of God’s divinity. As a Christian, I believe in a triune God, creator, redeemer, sustainer. God is diverse. Humanity is diverse. There is divinity in our diversity. And so to deny that, to say, “No, that person isn’t like me, therefore they’re wrong.” Flies in the face of a God who made us all.

JEN: Alright. I’m going to interject a story. 

BISHOP KAREN: OK. 

JEN: When I was doing my own wrestling with my own kid who had just come out, we happened to be in Maui out on a kayak in the ocean. And I looked back at the beach. And I’ll probably get teary when I say this because it was deeply spiritual for me in the moment. But I looked back at this beach in Maui and there were 2,000 different colors of green between the tops of the mountains and down to the trees on the beach and in between and on the edges and in the shadows. There were so many colors of green. And I was just struck in my soul if a God who creates a planet, creates this many shades of green, how many more shades is he going to create in the people that are going to inhabit this world. There’s not just one way to be or there would be, because it would've been really pretty with one color of green. But there wasn’t. there were literally thousands of shades of green. Just dark, dark, dark and almost minty and in between. And in that kayak in that moment, I was like, I have dramatically underestimated God in this moment. 

BISHOP KAREN: That is so beautiful, so beautiful. And I often think that. Like, we see now the anti-trans legislation that’s happening and “This is an abomination against God because God created you this male or female.” And, one, my trans friends have taught me that their own journey is a spiritual journey to live into who God created them to be. And, also, God created the night and day and called it good. But God also created the dawn and the dusk and those things are good too. But what is that? What is the dawn? Is it night or is it day? What’s the dusk? Is it night or is it day? I mean, there’s these hues that God has created and it exists in humanity as well. 

JEN: Absolutely. So, if we’re talking just about this schism and wrestle and vote, and I’m going to call it success in the Methodist church, and the healing that can happen now once the reckoning and stuff has happened, what message do you hope, for people looking in at the Methodist church, what message do you hope is sent that they get out of all that? 

BISHOP KAREN: Well, Okay. I think I first want to talk about the pain of those who left that I hold because I think that we lessen our witness in the world when we divide as Christians. And so in a highly divisive age that we’re living in, that concerns me, that we can’t show the world what it means to live with difference and find unity. And the other thing I worry about is those 25% left because they didn’t want a church with queer people in it. But, you know what, God has such an amazing sense of humor. There’s going to be kids in their churches that are going to fall in love with God, that are going to hear their call to ministry, and that are going to come out. It’s not the end of the story, yet, for them. They’re going to be dealing with it all over again. 

JEN: Yeah. That’s very true. I hadn’t thought of that. But the schism will come up again for them. 

BISHOP KAREN: That’s right. That’s right. So, I’m sorry. I kind of went off on a tangent. So tell me again your question because it does break my heart. I can live with people who don’t understand me. That’s okay. 

JEN: So what I was asking is the message, the message you hope the whole world learns from this.

BISHOP KAREN: We are the second largest Protestant denomination in the United States. The message I hope that people here is that there is a denomination that is learning how to love LGBTQ people and committed to that and will keep open minds and open doors and open hearts. I think that is such a needed message right now. And one of the things about the United Methodist church is we have little churches all across rural America. And we’re going to help all of our churches live into this. 

JEN: I love that. We have, in Idaho, I’m even familiar with two Methodist churches that I refer people to all the time who have been amazingly welcoming and affirming for the decade that I’ve been involved. So they’ve managed to maintain that through all the division. Even in little old Idaho where I am. 

BISHOP KAREN: Wow. That’s great.

JEN: So, I want to talk about two different topics but they kind of overlap. So I’m not sure how to phrase it exactly. But we have, I think, not in the Methodist church anymore than anywhere else, right – like I’m talking more nationally or even internationally – there’s a pretty solid culture war against queer people. Wild misinformation. We talk often about how back when I was in high school in the 80s and 90s, we just didn’t talk about it at all. There wasn't misinformation, there just wasn’t any information. And that was not great. But now there’s also like just rampant crazy misinformation and it seems like it’s particularly aimed at teens. And without offending, hopefully, the listening audience or you, it seems like most of the people waging that war are simultaneously shouting how Christian they are all the time. “I do this because of Christ. I’m doing this is Christ’s name. I’m doing this for Christ.” Christians, in the realm of this culture war, do you have thoughts about that? 

BISHOP KAREN: I do. Actually, I’m really concerned about the rise of Christian Nationalism because under the guise of a theocracy – which we are not a theocracy – people are trying to have a very narrow definition of patriotism, of community, and I think it’s very dangerous. And it doesn’t look anything like Christianity. For me, Christianity, it all boils down to two rules. Love God and love your neighbor. And if you are demonizing some people, you’re not loving your neighbor. If you are wanting to take rights away from your neighbor, rights that you have, that’s not loving your neighbor. And how do we, who have a love ethic of faith, live love more loudly and boldly in this time because we have to have a counter narrative. 

JEN: I’m hoping you’ll expand to like, kind of details. For those of us who are maybe just sticking our toes into this realm. I know we have moms ask sometimes, “They did what? They made what illegal? They can’t do that.” Sort of like energy. People are new and they’re timid and they’re sometimes attending church and trying to figure out how much they can speak up there. And they’re trying to figure out who to write letters to. And I’m interested in your views – not just in the rising Christian Nationalism in the US, they have a desire for dominance and they are absolutely weaponizing the LGBTQ community to reach their demographic – what can we do about it? I’m just a little old mom who’s raising my five kids. What can I do? 

BISHOP KAREN: But you know what, you are a mom who is impacting your community and your future community by how you raise your kids, first of all. And by your commitment to support your kids, by your commitment to make sure they have a safe environment to thrive in, not safe that is pure, but safe that means that their personhood will be valued. That their ability to explore things that aren’t like them, that are beyond their current community, their current demographic. When we learn about others through books, through music, through movies, our heart enlarges, right? We recognize that we’re more alike than different. And so the first thing is, I love the name of Mama Dragons, right? When I think of a dragon, I think of a fierceness. But when I think of Mamas, it’s a fierce love. And for you all to live your love fiercely for your kids, to not allow the encroaching hate that is narrowing your community's world, and to do that together. You don’t do this work alone. You find people in other churches, you find people in PFLAG – Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays. You find it with other Mama Dragons. And together, before we started we talked about Rita Mae Brown who said an army of lovers cannot fail. When you are grounded in love, mobilizing together to provide an alternative witness, walls come crumbling down eventually. Martin Luther King said “The moral arc of the universe is long and bends towards justice.” We get to help bend it. So help bend that moral arc. 

JEN: That’s so beautiful. I know I said that was going to be the last question. But I can’t let you go if I don’t ask. Do you have a message for our listeners that might’ve experienced harm at the hands of the church? A message of hope or wisdom or anything in that realm? 

BISHOP KAREN: I want to say this. If you have experienced harm in your church, you need to know that’s not from God because you are an exclamation point on the heart of God. God delights in you. God wants you to be your full self that God created you to be, which is a journey into that beloved person. And so take that journey knowing that God’s holy spirit will guide you. And be with people who are going to look at you and say, “Wow. Look what God did in you. You are amazing.” Find those people. 

JEN: I want to offer up a heartfelt and abundant thank you to you. Not just for taking a chunk of your evening to help educate us. But also for all of the work you’ve done in being an important and valuable change-maker in the world. You’re doing big things and I think the little things matter also. But you’re doing big things that are making the world safer for my kids and I want to thank you for that.

BISHOP KAREN: Thank you. Thank you. I’m so grateful that you invited me to be with you, and so grateful for the witness of all the Mama Dragons. 

JEN: You’re awesome. 

Thanks for joining us here In the Den. While we have you, we want to let you know about the inaugural LUV Conference coming up this October 18th and 19th in Salt Lake City, Utah. The conference is all about learning and connecting and creating a more supportive environment for LGBTQ+ individuals and their families. Get more information at www.luvwithoutlimits.org. That’s L-U-V without limits.org. Or find the link in the show notes under the links from the show. We hope to see you there. 

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