Latinx and Queer

As human beings, we are all more than just one thing. We each hold more than one identity, and our cultural and ethnic backgrounds play huge parts in how we experience the world. Today In the Den, guest host Sara LaWall dives into the intersection of Latinx and Queer identities with two special guests, Gabe Morales & Alex Carmelo.

Special Guest: Alex Carmelo

Alex was born in Galveston, TX, and raised in the city of South Houston. He was brought up by his grandparents. Their strong dedication and discipline made him the person he is today.  Alex was the first person in his family to graduate from high school and attend college. His life journey has included some tough times, but he continues to fight not only for himself but the community he serves.  As an openly gay Latino/Hispanic, he is truly passionate about helping the community. His first leadership position was as the executive liaison for Houston Millennials.  He currently sits on the board of directors of the National Hispanic Professional Organization, Houston Dia Los Muertos, and the Houston Livestock show.  Alex truly believes that as he empowers himself, he can help others become leaders.  Motto:  “Don’t talk the talk, walk the walk.”

Special Guest: Gabriel Morales

Gabriel is a 34 year old first-generation Houstonian. After years of yearning to study, practice, and work hands-on in the field of art, he was lucky enough to stumble upon a graphic design course at the University of Houston-Downtown (UHD), where he found his calling. Soon after, under the leadership of his graphic design professor/mentor, Gabriel joined the inaugural Graphic Design Research Initiative program at UHD, where he worked alongside his professor and a select group of fellow students to gain real-world experience in design projects with non-profit organizations. Gabriel was then invited to interview for a graphic design student position at the UHD Advancement & University Relations office, where he was offered a full-time position, after graduating with a BA in Fine Arts. Gabriel has been designing with UHD for eight years now and has since earned the title of Manager of Graphic Design. Outside of work, Gabriel does freelance design and spends his free time hanging out with his family, best friends/roommates, and his cat, watching movies, and singing along to musicals. 

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Transcript

JEN: Hello and welcome to In The Den with Mama Dragons. I’m your host, Jen. This podcast was created to walk and talk with you through the journey of raising happy, healthy, and productive LGBTQ humans. Thanks for listening. We’re glad you’re here.

SARA: Hello everyone. I am Sara LaWall. I’m your guest host for this episode and I’m really honored to be here today. I want to thank Jen and the whole Mama Dragons In the Den team for inviting me to be part of this podcast and this episode in particular.

I am really excited for today’s conversation because In The Den we are continuing the exploration of intersectional identities. You know, we know that as human beings we are all more than just one thing, that we each hold more than one identity and that our cultural and ethnic backgrounds play a huge part in our experience of the world and in the experience of queerness as well. So, today we’re going to dive into the intersection of Latinx and Queer identity with two wonderful guests, Gabe Morales & Alex Carmelo. Welcome to both of you, it’s so great to have you with us In the Den!

GABE: Hi. Thank you for having me.

ALEX: Thank you. Thank you.

SARA: You’re welcome. I want to start by introducing you a little more formally to our listeners. And so I’ll start with Gabe. Gabe is a 34 year old first-generation Houstonian. He found his calling studying Graphic Design at the University of Houston-Downtown. He joined the inaugural Graphic Design Research Initiative program at UHD working alongside his mentor and select students on design projects for the non-profit sector. And he now is employed by the University of Houston-Downtown in their Advancement & University Relations office where he is the manager of graphic design. And he’s been with that office for 8 years now. Outside of work, Gabe spends his free time hanging out with his family, best friends/roommates and his cat, and watching a lot of movies and singing along to musicals, which I do as well, Gabe. So I have a great affinity for that free time.

GABE: It’s so hard not to. It’s very close to my heart, definitely. I don’t have the talent to do it, but I still do it.

SARA: Excellent. Alex Carmelo was born in Galveston TX and raised in South Houston by his grandparents whose influence and dedication made a big impact on his life. Alex was the first in his family to graduate high school and attend college. He was appointed the Executive Liaison for Houston Millennials and currently sits on the board of directors of the National Hispanic Professional Organization, Houston Dia de Los Muertos, and the Houston Livestock show and rodeo. As an Openly Gay Latino/Hispanic, Alex knows firsthand the challenges that are faced by the community and has dedicated himself to advocacy and service in a variety of ways. He enjoys supporting and mentoring other young leaders and lives by the motto: “Don’t talk the talk, walk the walk.” Brilliant motto, Alex. Thank you. That’s a great way for us to begin together.

ALEX: Thank you so much.

SARA: So I want to start our conversation, because this episode focuses on the influence ethnic and cultural identities, I’d love to hear a little bit about each of your backgrounds. Where were you born, what’s the ethnic and cultural background you were born into, and how did that show up in your family, childhood as you were growing up? Gabe, how about we start with you.

GABE: Yeah. So I was born here in the US. My parents immigrated both from Mexico. My mom is from Desoto Federal and my dad is from Guererro, Mexico. They met here in Houston and they haven't moved since. But, growing up I grew up Spanish-speaking. I didn’t know any English. All I knew was Spanish and Spanish culture. When we went to school, come fourth grade, I was put into a bilingual class and then fifth grade it was full on English from there. So then it became speaking English in the outside world and speaking Spanish in my home world, at home with my parents and my family. So then I had to maneuver that line of English and Spanish. And it took a minute to fully grasp it and understand the advancement of it and the benefits of it. But I am very grateful to be able to do both now. Granted, now it’s a little bit less Spanish than it is English. After a while you start in your adult world, in the outside real world, using whatever is more prominent. And here it is English. But I still hold Spanish very dear to my heart. I very much enjoy being able to speak it and I hope to pass it on one day to my children. But, apart from that, my parents were very influential in food, in dancing, in all the aspects of culture in Mexican-American. But I really enjoy it, being Latino in the US, it can be difficult sometimes. But it’s a very important aspect of myself that a lot of people don’t – we’re going to skip that part.

SARA: We can totally skip that part. And I have a question about “a lot of people don’t” that I’m going to ask about a little bit later because I think there maybe are some misconceptions out there.

 GABE: Right. Okay.

SARA: Let’s talk about that a little bit later, but thank you for that. That’s a great background. And boy, your family sounds beautiful and lively and wonderful. Alex, what about you? Tell us a little bit of your story?

ALEX: Yeah. So, I was actually born in Galveston, Texas, not too far from Houston. I was with my two beautiful grandparents. Unfortunately I was in a distraught home so my mother and father couldn’t – I’ve never met my father, and my mother, it was just not the right time for her. So I was raised by my Grandparents. My grandfather was from Mexico, but my grandmother was from here down South. So it’s a mixture of Mexican and Mexican-American in our home. So I did speak Spanish but also English. And so growing up, I can say I was more conservative because my grandparents are very Catholic, raised Catholic, did what had to be needed done in the church. It was one of those where me, as a Latino, it was just this is the way, this is what it is, religion, family, service. But growing up also with my grandparents, they were already at the age where they needed more assistance. So as a kid, I had to become an adult really fast, coming back and forth to the hospital and stuff like that. And so I had to hurry up and forget the children’s area of me growing up. It needed to be, provide for your grandparents. And so, unfortunately, I lost my grandfather my eighth grade year and a year later my grandmother. They were married for over 50 years. So you know how it is. It’s usually when one leaves, the other one follows, you know. But raising up, like I said, it was I had to go through the trenches in order to be who I am right now. I was raised with family members, aunts, uncles, but it was more where I had to hurry up and become an adult and know my career and where I want to be.

SARA: Yeah. Sounds like it. Alex, I’m curious, where did you end up after your grandparents died when you were in junior high?

ALEX: So, luckily, my grandparents had a storehouse. So, my Aunt really took over as guardianship and she tried her best to fulfill the adult. But I had more than just my aunt. And I always give credit to teachers. And teachers were a big, big part of my life. They always pushed me, showed me the way because in Houston, the southeast part of Houston is not really a great neighborhood area, raised in the Pasadena and stuff and so it was a challenge. And so challenges always becomes where the teachers are the ones pushing you. And so without the teachers, without some of the teachers to this day, I am, you know, in social media, they’re checking on me and stuff like that. And so I’ve managed to be the first in my family to graduate high school. And college was even unheard of. But, like I said, the teachers, teachers, teachers said, “You’re going to go to college.” So I started at Santissima College Community. Got my basics. And then transferred to the University of Houston where eventually I got my degree in Criminal Justice and minor in Political Science.

SARA: Wow. Wow.

ALEX: And so that’s always been my motto, “Don’t talk the talk, walk the walk.” And I love challenges because challenges for me, it’s what life is all about and brought me to who I am today.

SARA: Wow. Well thank you. What an incredible story. And then you certainly had a lot of challenges and thank you for sharing those with us and being here.

ALEX: Thank you. It’s amazing.

SARA; You know, you’re both millennials and in the millennial generation. And we’ve seen over the generations how language changes, especially in communities where we’re really trying to be expansive and be as inclusive as possible. And so we’ve seen changes to the way that we identify folks of Hispanic/Latino heritage and we’re hearing the term “Latinx” being used a lot more and more and more with the “X” being a gender neutral way to kind of describe the community recognizing now with gender expansiveness that Latino/Latina didn’t fit quite right for those in that community. And I’m curious if you all will talk about that with us a little bit and how you understand the evolution of that term and have experienced it in your own world.

GABE: So I have not actually, uh, I love the word. I think it's great. I think the idea behind it is fantastic in creating a new word or expanding the language that exists now to be more inclusive. I think it’s important to create language that allows space for everyone. I know that behind it, Latino and Latina are still used every day. I know that’s what I use. But I know the Latinx and Latine are still available for anyone who doesn’t fit into that preexisting language. So I think it’s a great term to use so long as you all want to be using it. I don’t think it excludes anyone. There’s nothing negative about it. I know that there are some annotations that people don’t like and they say that it’s erasing culture. But I think it’s allowing for more space and I think that’s a positive outlook.

SARA: Thanks for that. Thanks for clarifying also that all the terms are being used all the time in different contexts and it’s as much about personal preference and context as it is about anything else, but that it is expansive.

GABE: Exactly.

SARA: Alex, how about you? What do you think?

ALEX: I think more it’s a generational change. As millennials, our generation is very open to dialogue and actually, researching and seeing what is a reason why this term, “Latinx” has come. And so I agree. If you want to consider yourself as an “X” go for it. But I love researching and I love seeing new words, wordings coming out. But, if Latinx is the way you want to be described, go onward. That’s why, whenever I consider myself, I always say I’m Latino-Hispanic because Latino and Hispanic are two different. And so me, raised with my grandparents, my grandfather from Mexico, my grandmother from here in Texas. That’s why I always say, and that’s the way I see myself. We’re all open to dialogue and if you want to consider yourself as an “X” go for it.

SARA: That’s great. Thank you both for that. I appreciate it. I know from my own story and I didn’t share this with either of you at the beginning. But I married into a Mexican-American family who are five generations of Arizonans in Southern Arizona. And so we have a lot of these conversations in my family as well. And so it’s just really interesting to hear you reflect on that. And I know that in the work that I do, particularly the work in social justice spaces, I know we’re really trying to use that word more intentionally so that we can be as inclusive and expansive while letting people self-identify.

GABE: Right. More like an umbrella term, kind of like “Queer” I would think, where it encompasses a lot of other terms. And so then after that, you can pinpoint whatever you prefer. But I think it’s a good catch-all.

ALEX: And another thing I always say, generational, older generation doesn’t seem to see it like that,but if you actually sit down and actually explain, this is what it’s meaning. It’s nothing to hurt you. It’s nothing about our culture because “Nosotros todavía tenemos la cultura,” “We still have the culture” and it’s not going to go away. So that’s we just educate the older generation and show them, “Hey, this is maybe a little different for you. But this is what it means.”

SARA: That’s great.

GABE: And something like that, a change like that where things are evolving is scary and it’s just because the unknown and people don’t want to do or use things incorrectly sometimes. And so I feel like people stray from doing it because they don’t want to mess up. Right? And also they don’t know what it fully means if they don’t do the research. And I think people stray from what they don’t understand because of fear.

ALEX: Correct. Yes.

SARA: Yeah. Good. Good observation. That’s really true. Thank you. Let’s talk a little bit more about culture. And I’m curious if you all, if each of you will share just a little bit of your coming out story. And the reason why I ask this is because I know from experience as a parent of a queer kid, hearing coming out stories helps me understand my kid better, helps me recognize that my particularities as a parent, I’m not really alone in them. They’re kind of shared. There’s some universal experience, but there’s also the very specific experience about the Latino culture, Hispanic culture and how that influenced your coming out. And I’m sure that that’s a really key experience in your lives. So, Alex, do you want to start with us and tell us a little bit what that was like for you and how your culture played a role in your coming out?

ALEX: So my coming out story, I can say I really didn’t come out. It was just there already. And this is based on because you can say, I’m the leader of the pack in my family. I’m the one that makes the decisions. People call me for what’s going on in the family. And so I feel like I wouldn’t say a masculinity thing, it’s more of a leadership role. And so when I just told my family, “Hey. I say I’m gay. That’s the way it is.” Of course, I do have family members that are religious and for them I don’t say that they don’t talk about it around me, but they still love me. And we all take it differently. Trust me. We all take it differently. But I believe in my family, I’m the leader in the pack of my family and they would never leave me behind or anything like that because I made myself who I am today. Like people say, “If you don’t like me, that’s fine because I still love you no matter what.”

SARA: And that’s not always easy. Did you get any push-back from family members?

ALEX: Maybe comments here and there. But as far as I can say that it is that I can say that unfortunately I’m not really that tight with my family. They’re there, but it’s not like as a Latino-Hispanic family where someone’s calling you every day. Someone’s texting you every day, “Hey are you OK?” “Hey, hon, how’s this. How’s your week going?” I really don’t have that in my family, but they know that I’m there.

SARA: And you mentioned in the story about your childhood and your family, your sort of family, church, the Catholic church, being raised in the Catholic church, did that have an impact on you in your coming out?

ALEX: Yes and no because, like I said, growing up I really didn’t have that uncle or someone in the family member putting me down because of who I was. For me, the Catholic church was more of a displiner where, you know, this is who you are, this is what you should believe. But, at the same time, it’s not where – they’re not like banging the sides of your head. I was involved in youth groups. I was an altar server, actually too. And I might not know but if my grandparents were still alive, they would support me 100% of who I am.

SARA: That’s great. That’s great. Thank you. Gabe, how about you? Tell us a little bit about your coming out story and your family and cultural influences and that.

GABE: So I think I mentioned it earlier, but my family and I are very close. We are a big family like a lot of Latinos are. And growing up I was free to express myself. I loved art. I’m the middle child of four siblings. I say middle because I have an older sister, my oldest sister. Then I have an older brother who’s like the first-born son. And then it's me and then my little sister. But, yeah, I was always a huge fan of art. I was creative. I was the different one but it really wasn’t ever pointed out. I was just allowed to express myself. And my parents always kind of threw in little hints while I was growing up that, “Hey we saw so-and-so, a random person, a queer couple just so you guys know.” Like we were driving somewhere and they say, “Hey, if one of you happens to be gay or something, it’s totally fine. Just reminding you.” And we’re like, “Okay, cool.” And at the time I didn’t know what that meant or that I was gay at all. I was just like, “Cool.” And then when I got older, right, middle school, high school, I started realizing what it was. But still this fear inside of me was brewing and I don’t know, it could’ve just been me, but I felt like the whole time the normativity of growing up is that everyone is straight, I feel. And then it felt like this whole time I’ve been putting up a ruse and kind of lying to everyone. And so for me it felt like coming out was admitting to that lie. So that’s what made it very difficult because it’s owning up, right, to what you’ve been telling everyone the whole time, in school, friends, everyone. And so that kind of didn’t happen until I was in my mid-twenties when I kind of got up the courage to finally admit that “Lie” that I wasn’t straight and that I was actually gay. And even though my parents had given me the hint the whole growing up that it was totally fine, there was no problem, we had an aunt that was a lesbian and she was part of the family. I saw her all the time. She would always invite us out for drinks. It was really cool. But then one day I kind of just got up the courage to tell my mother first. We were home alone while my siblings were running errands and I told her, “Hey, I know that we’ve talked about marriage. Well, what if I told you that it wouldn’t be to a woman?” and instinctively [inaudible] very emotional, that type of thing, to anyone. But I definitely did cry. She said, “It’s okay.” She didn’t say she knew. She just said, “It’s fine. Don’t worry about it. It’s nothing. It’s not a big deal.” And so it was very easy just a weight off your shoulders. You could breathe. That fear that was brewing up inside of you for all these years, for these decades that something was going to go wrong, didn’t happen. So I was very lucky in that sense. Then after that, I told my younger sister who’s like my best friend and then the rest of the family. And it was very much a similar reaction. They didn’t throw it in my face, I don’t say throw it in my face in a mean way, but where they would say, “Hey we knew.” Because I feel like sometimes that can also be taken wrong. But it was more like, “It’s fine. Don’t worry about it. There’s nothing wrong with it.” And so that gave me comfort. And it was really nice. I told my sister in a restaurant and then everyone else kind of together. But it was very nice experience compared to a lot of other people which weren’t as lucky. So I feel lucky every day, you know.

SARA: Yeah.

GABE: So it was fantastic. It was difficult, the action of doing it just because, like I said it feels like you’re admitting to something that you’ve done wrong when you, in reality haven’t. You’re just maneuvering life as it’s kind of shown to you that it should be. Because growing up, what queer representation did you see anywhere? I saw Will and Grace, but I watched that when my parents were asleep because I didn’t think I was supposed to.

SARA: Wow.

GABE: One of the stories I share with my friends is that growing up, one of my favorite movies was A Walk To Remember because it was such a sweet film. But being a boy, I was like, I shouldn’t be watching this because it’s not a boy movie. But I watched it at night at midnight because I really love the idea of it, of the romanticizing of something cute like that. But anyway, growing up, coming out wasn’t a difficult experience with any of my family which was great. Even now I joke with my siblings that I’m the favorite cousin because my cousins all love me. You know, the primos all get together or the generation that’s replacing our tios and tias. And it’s been good.

SARA: That’s great. That’s really lovely. And your story reminds me of when my kiddo came out to us and we are a very, very progressive household, very liberal household, have been forever and ever. And I finally got up the courage to ask them, “Why didn’t you do that sooner?” And they said, “Mom, it’s really hard.”

GABE: It really is.

SARA: “It doesn’t matter if we know you’re going to be okay with it. It’s still really hard.” So it’s hard.

GABE: It is. It’s just saying the words out loud is hard in itself. And I remember practicing in my room and being like, “I am gay. I can say this. I am gay.” And it was so hard. And then trying to actually do it in person in real time was one of the hardest things. And I don’t regret anything. I’m glad I did, you know. Because just knowing that everything’s fine and nothing came of it really, but just them knowing the real me now is much more comfortable.

SARA: That’s great. Thank you both. Those are really lovely stories. And so now that you’re out and adults and out in the world and working, I want to talk a little bit about the intersection of identities. Of the Latinx, Latino identity and the gay identity because I think that there’s a lot of research out there that suggests that multiple marginalized identities can be really challenging. So if you’re queer and a person of color, that adds to the challenges that the culture places upon you or lays out in front of you. And I’d love it if you’d share what some of the unique challenges you’ve experienced in your own identities being queer and Latino. Gabe?

GABE: Wow. That’s hard. Yeah. There’s a lot. I mean being Latino in itself is a challenge, being a minority. And then being a double minority and being queer also. I think for me being Latino, I grew up in a Latino community and that’s what I was mostly exposed to which was great growing up through high school, through middle school, like everything was great. So I didn’t really experience many challenges growing up. The only time I remember something like that happening was when I was out shopping with my mom. I think it was for prom or something. We were buying a suit from a thrift shop and some woman was giving us a compliment. But I think my mom and I were like deep in conversation so I didn’t really hear them or pay attention. And I just heard them mention, “Oh, they don’t speak English.” And I wanted to rebuttal but I didn’t want to do anything and my mom was with me. And I was like, “No. No. No. It’s fine. Just let it go.” And I think that’s what happens a lot of times is comments like that or looks that you get being in a space that isn’t predominantly Latino, you just have to learn to let things go, kind of pick and choose your battles, things like that because not everything is really meant to come off as it seems. So I feel like sometimes people don’t, I’m sure those women didn’t realize that what they were saying was offensive. They were just like, “Oh, they didn’t respond to me because they didn’t understand me.” When in reality, we were just doing something else. I didn’t really hear them. So things like that you have to learn to let go. And, if you can, even at the time educate people. But pick and choose your battles. And then on top of that being queer was, especially in the Latino community, not a lot of people talk about it. Maybe my tia was queer but I didn’t know until I was older, until I was a teenager. My parents and all my other tios and tias were just like, “That’s your tia, she’s cool. She just likes to hang out with the guys.” And I’m like, “Oh cool. That’s awesome. But I didn’t fully realize that she was a lesbian until later. And I was like, “Oh, man. That’s awesome. Oh, so we DO have representation in the family, right?” Things that you don’t talk about that would’ve made me feel more comfortable growing up. But I think it’s just almost taboo to talk about things like that. But I feel like that was before.

SARA: Less taboo now.

GABE: Yes, Now it's more accepted. And it’s like Alex was saying, I think it’s a generational thing where it’s, us millennials now are more open to the idea of queerness and so it’s like, “Oh. There’s no problem with it, right? There’s nothing to hide and so it’s free to open about.” And you can see that in the media, you know. There’s much more queer representation in television and music and everywhere. Advertising even, it’s nice to see those commercials where it’s just a snippet of a queer couple holding hands for a rings commercial or something. And it’s nice to see because you didn’t see that growing up.

SARA: Yeah. Well you talk about that sounds definitely like a challenge both in the lack of representation of queer folks in media and also Latinos in media.

GABE: Right.

SARA: And so it’s sort of a double whammy in feeling like there’s nobody out there like me. The world doesn’t show me back to me.

GABE: And so you’re surrounded by your own community, but externally in the bigger world you’re actually not as big as you think you are, right? You realize, “Oh, actually, everything that I’ve known growing up is small compared to everything that’s out there.” And so I feel like it's important for us to take up that space and to be the representation that we need other people to be.

SARA: That’s great. Alex, how about you? What are some challenges you’ve faced?

ALEX: So, like I said, growing up I was raised by my grandparents in the southeast part of Houston. So I grew up in the South Houston, Pasadena, Texas was known as the KKK, the Ku Klux Klan area back in the 70’s, 80’s. So Pasadena had a bad rep already even because of the KKK actually being there. So me growing up, it was in south Houston was changing the demographics. A lot more Latino-Hispanics were moving in while a lot of Caucasians that were there, were leaving the area. Because of course work during what was it, when NAFTA was hitting open supply chains, things happened like that. And so I can say growing up, I didn’t know it was bad until me growing up now remember the days where my grandmother wanted me to just speak to certain people. So I can learn better English and be around them and know them like “These are the people that you need to hang out with. Don’t hang out with this certain group. Hang out with this certain group.” And so that kind of, me growing up now is like, “Wow. Did my grandma actually get that?” And yeah, it was just one of those that growing up, like I said, my friends were Caucasian before they left to another city or another part of Texas. And after that, the rest was Latinos, African Americas, you know, because like I said, demographics change. And now South Houston, Pasadena’s about 60 to 70% Latino-Hispanic population. It’s grown dramatically. But I think the reason why, again, during that time, you know, my grandparents, there’s so much segregation. You can’t drink from here. You can’t do it from here because again, my grandmother was raised in the rural part of Texas down in Matagorda County. You know, Palascios, Texas. These little towns. So she had that mindset where “My grandson needs to be more, I can say, professional if he hangs out with this certain group, and not this certain group.” And so that was one thing. And Gabe is absolutely right, we think we’re strong enough. But when we actually step out of our comfort zone, you actually see it. And I always love these challenges where I love stepping out of my comfort zone because it opens my mindset in saying, “You know, maybe they’re not saying it this way, but that’s just how they’re around.”

SARA: Did either of you feel that pull between cultures between the sort of stereotypical dominant white culture and your Latino culture. And I often hear my own husband talk about that pull to be like, being a Mexican-American, coming from a Mexican-American family being half white and half Mexican. That pull of not being Mexican enough and not being white enough. Did either of you wrestle in that space?

ALEX: Yes. There’s this movie called Selena, Gabe knows this. The perfect example was when he says, “You can’t be too Mexican-American because the Mexicans are going to think you’re too white. And you can’t be too Mexican because the Mexican- Americans are going to think you’re too Mexican.” And now-a-days, as millennials like I said, we are one of the – I know I’m going to get maybe a little hit with this – but I think we’re better generation well off because you’ve seen Latino music, everything’s blended into English and Spanish. While we’re here helping each other out. Those that don’t speak Spanish, we show them, “Hey. Let’s see where I can help you out.” And those that are Mexican-Americans, I feel like we’re changing the dynamics in this culture and who we are. And I exactly 100% I’ve had that. And we say, “Well, you’re Latino, how come you don’t speak English?” And I’m not going to lie, sometimes I’m like “Wow. He doesn’t speak English. He’s erasing his race.” Which I should not because I should always have that open mindset and say, “You know what, maybe he was raised that way. Maybe his parents made him speak only English in the household because of generational changes and what they’d been through and the history here in the United States.”

SARA: Yeah. I mean, I remember my father-in-law telling a story about how he was not allowed to speak Spanish in school and was punished for it, really. And therefore, did not allow his children to learn to speak fluent Spanish. And that became a challenging point of their own identities growing up. Gabe, how about you, did you feel like wrestling in that cultural place?

GABE: In fact, it is very similar to that. It goes back to language. So, like I said growing up I was very fluent in Spanish. That’s all I spoke. And then once I got to school, I had to learn English. And so then speaking English so long, I lost some of my Spanish language from speaking it less and less every day. And so I have this inner guilt of not knowing enough Spanish. But I know that it’s something that is normal, especially living in the US. Because, like Alex said, it’s very much expected that you learn English here. Because, if not, then you’re lesser-than. You don’t know what the prominent language is and so you’re seen as less-than. And even in the Latino community, it is very much that too. So you are expected or it’s preferred that you speak english because it is the dominant language and if you don’t, then you’re looked like less-than, like you’re not as smart because english is what you should be speaking if you’re living here. Where, in reality, it’s a giant pot. Everyone speaks many different languages. There’s no one way of living life. And I feel like that’s what people don’t understand sometimes is that everything is different. Everything just blends together. There’s no one way of doing things. I had that inner turmoil growing up where growing up I had that same idea. And I think it’s just what we were exposed to in media and whatever friends and groups that you see growing up, in that I needed to learn English because it was what was better. When in reality, nothing is.

SARA: Right.

GABE: Everything’s equal. It’s whatever power you give things.

SARA: Oh that’s great. Yeah. Thank you for that.

ALEX: And I’m going to throw a shout out to the city. Where we live in this great beautiful city of Houston, Texas . . .

GABE: Yes.

ALEX: . . . we represent diversity. And when you have elected officials actually speaking about it, showing it, it makes it so much beautiful where here in Houston, in the city of Houston, we don’t tolerate this. We’re all blended together, we are an example of what the United States and other major cities should be like. Helping each other no matter what.

GABE: Very true. I would agree.

SARA: Wow. I’m really impressed and glad to hear that. And I know Houston in particular has a reputation for being a little bit more progressive and welcoming and diverse and inclusive. But that is not representative of the state of Texas as a whole.

GABE: Unfortunately not.

SARA: Particularly your political leadership. And I’ve been watching. We’ve all been watching a lot of what’s coming out of Texas and other conservative states kind of following suit in their anti-trans and anti-queer legislation. And it just seems to be ratcheting up. And I’m wondering how you are experiencing that or how you are aware that your communities are experiencing that?

ALEX: So a lot of people don’t understand, Texas itself has 254 counties. And out of the 254 counties, we have four major cities which is Houston, Dallas, San Antonio, and El Paso. And when the state tries to pass these anti-trans bills or anything like that, we are the major hubs in the state of Texas. People don’t understand that, especially Houston, number one economically, transparency. And we actually have the biggest foot in the state of Texas. When something like that tries to pass and it serves up these major cities in saying, “What are you doing?” because it's just mind-boggling that people want to pass these. At the same time, they live in other parts of Texas where they’re not around trans, gay, queer, men and women, lesbians. So maybe I always say is I know their mindsets may be already there. But at the same time, show them. Come to Houston. Come to Dallas. Come to San Antonio. Come to El Paso. Stay here for one week and see what in your mindset is making you want to make this bill up. And show them they’re out of comfort zone. Take them to a homeless LGBTQ shelter and show them, “Look, this is what you’re going to pass and look at what's happening right now.” If you take someone out of their comfort zone, I believe maybe you can change that just a little bit. And imagine what the world can be.

SARA: Imagine. Imagine. Yeah, Thanks.

GABE: Very similar to that, yeah. I would agree that anyway it goes back to what I said earlier is that people fear what they don’t know or what they don’t understand. And it’s that exposure of not being around the people that these laws are affecting. And they don’t know that what they’re doing is actually doing more harm than good in their eyes or what they see as good. But I think it’s just not being around queer people makes them less inclined to have sympathy. It desympathizes people for them and it dehumanizes them because it honestly feels like sometimes they feel like they don’t exist. That trans people, that queer people don’t exist because they don’t know anyone or see it anywhere. And I think it just goes back to major cities, we have all kinds of people everywhere and so it’s easy to see all the representation around every corner. But when you go to rural Texas or places that don’t have the amount of people that live here, that number minimizes and also people do exist there but a lot of times I think they are just afraid of being themselves and so they don’t expose themselves to the community because of fear of backlash, you know. And so there is queer representation in these smaller towns and all throughout Texas, but I feel like people don’t want to be known because of the majority of people there feel like it’s not right based on whatever they’ve grown up learning. But I think just not being around queer representation really affects that. And so I think that’s why these laws are seen as good things by people because they just don’t know. And so it just goes back to fearing what you don’t understand.

SARA: Yeah. Yeah. and it sounds to me like Houston as a city is actually pushing back against some of those laws and really, really working on its embrace and welcome and inclusivity and that there are a lot of resources and spaces and support for queer folks in the city.

GABE: Yeah. I feel like Houston’s doing a great job of having those resources for people and making us feel welcome and unafraid to be ourselves, even in small government, a representation is there.

SARA: That’s great.

GABE: And I have no fear. And that’s what I feel very lucky about is that I have no fear walking around with rainbow socks, with a rainbow t-shirt. Going to Pride itself, I look forward to it and I have no fear in just being myself.

ALEX: Right. Yeah.

GABE: And it’s a beautiful thing.

ALEX: Absolutely. And at the same time, like I said, I’m still going to always repeat this. I love stepping out of my comfort zone. And I always tell people that don’t really know what to ask me, I said, “Even if you think it feels uncomfortable to you, ask me because I might know the answer to that.” In your mindset next time you come across something like that, or maybe see something like that, you’ll be like, “Alex told me this. And it’s okay.” Because I see Alex the way he is and it’s going to be okay. I don’t need to put something negative on that or anything like that.

SARA: That’s great. Thank you both. It gives me a lot of hope and encouragement for sure. You know, I know that each of you does a lot of advocacy and is doing work in your community around in support of queer youth and queer youth of color. And our listeners can’t see it, but I can. But, listeners, Alex is wearing his rainbow shirt that says “Be You” in rainbow colors on the screen which is just bringing a smile to my face. Can you talk just a little bit about some of that work you’re doing in spaces you’re in where you’re really doing that advocacy and support in your communities?

GABE: I can start. Being in graphic design, yeah. The perfect medium for getting those messages out. I remember one time it was a gift, but even then I used it all the time is I made a gift for my friend. It was a t-shirt of two drag queens that said, “Just vote!” And things like that where you can create posters, social media graphics. That’s why I feel very lucky or very happy in my field of study because I can create media that can be seen. And a lot of times people learn visually, by seeing things. And so I think exposing or getting those messages out there using color, using font or whatever, is really important. And so I love creating queer media like that.

SARA: That’s awesome. I love watching that stuff come through my social feed and in all of the advocacy and organizing spaces. But, Alex, what about you? What kinds of work are you doing in the community and these queer spaces that you’re excited about?

ALEX: So I am very involved in my city. Like I said, my city, my community, I love getting my feet dirty. Let’s run the race together, you know. I’ve been involved in campaigns. I’ve been involved when we have panels to discuss, “Hey, Alex, as a Latino.” Like what we’re having now, these one-on-one conversations makes a big difference because, like I said, others we are in a space where we all are included but others can hear this and say, “You know what, this is who I really am. I might be a little scared, but while we’re speaking and fighting truth to power, great things can happen. A movement can happen, you know. And, like I said, I’m involved. I sit on currently the National Hispanic Professional Organization which back then it was morally conservative but now when a person like myself and I don’t know if I can do a shout out to my board president, Elsa, but she’s there and she’s changed the perspective of what the organization’s about. And also with the Houston Livestock Show and Rodeo, it’s awesome just being in all these organizations I love being a part of. And seeing where I can change or help someone and feel that they’re comfortable it’s going to be okay.

SARA: Well, Kudos to both of you. You are becoming the role models that the next generation can look to to see folks who are living their lives out loud and proud and doing great work in the world and proud of their identity and who they are. And thank you so much for that. Do you think that there are any particular misconceptions about the Queer/Latinx identity?

ALEX: Maybe “Don’t put it in my face,” I guess you could say. You know, okay, we’re Latinx, like I said it’s just one of those things where I haven’t seen where someone, “Don’t call me that?” or “You’re Latinx?” “No.” I mean, that’s probably the only misconception that I probably would hear or maybe see is just “Don’t put it in my face.” This is just another new concept, a new term that [inaudible]. Just, you know, like LGBTQIA. When at first it was LGBTQ, and I’ve been hearing this, “Oh, why do we have IA? Why do we need more words?” And I’ve always heard people say, “Oh, so it’s LGBTQIAXYZ dah, dah, dah, dah, dah?” And I said, “No. The reason why, it’s because these are terms that affect people .And when you give someone that space that makes them feel comfortable and powerful, imagine what they can do.”

SARA: Yes. Yes.

GABE: I would say a misconception would be that any term that is minority-wise is automatically seen as less-than or not as good as something else, what the majority is. And so I agree with Alex in saying that I think the terms are very important because representation matters. And so I know that there are a lot of terms. People are complaining about the queer alphabet, LGBTQIA+. But I think it’s important because not everyone fits into every one of those terms. And so there’s one that’s bound to stick to somebody that makes them feel comfortable, that makes them feel seen. And I think that’s why it’s important to have all those representations out there. Because that comfort is what makes people happy with who they are. It makes them feel like they’re not alone. Growing up, yeah, you didn’t see that in media growing up. And so that’s why it took me, I feel – you can come out whenever, of course, whatever’s comfortable – but I feel like I took too long in my experience.

SARA: Yeah.

GABE: Because I was afraid because I didn’t know who else was out there. And, honestly, once I met all of my friends who are amazing, I have never been happier. It’s a new level of authenticity that you didn't feel you could reach as a young person.

SARA: Wow. That is beautiful. And I want to hear more about who’s out there? I’m really curious to know, Gabe, we’ve talked a lot about media and representation. And so I’m curious to know, who do you look up to now, particularly in these different identities in the queer community and the Latinx community and the intersection, who are the movers and the shakers that you are following?

GABE: So Alex mentioned Selena, of course. Queen.

SARA: Of course.

GABE: But it just goes back to kind of like the film I mentioned earlier, is things that you didn’t think you could enjoy or that you’re allowed to enjoy because it wasn’t straight, because it wasn't for boys. And so Selena is one of them. Growing up, that was a girl singing girl music. And so things like that, I think, are what allowed me to, or that I really enjoyed that I kind of hid from people. But I think Selena’s one of them. I think representation on television, Will and Grace I mentioned earlier. Even directors, Xavier Dolan is a very great queer French director that I enjoy his movies and he acts in. And so I think little things like that, once you see them built up more and more and more, you start realizing that we are everywhere. There’s queer any type of media, in music, in books, in television. I’ve gotten really into young adult queer books very recently.

SARA: Oh, recommend one.

GABE: Oh, “They Both Die At The End.” I also like sad things. And that one is very sad.

ALEX: Oh no.

GABE: They are very good. Oh, there’s another one I have to get back to you with. I can’t think of the book but it made me bawl.

SARA: If you want to send us some of your recs, Gabe, we’ll put them in the show notes for our listeners to pass them around.

GABE: I will do that. Most definitely.

SARA: Alex, who are you looking up to?

ALEX: So I have my list I can say. Of course, my number one is Selena, growing up. Just looking at her movies and seeing the changes, the challenges that she had to face, but she hit them right directly but with support around her. And when you have that support around you and you’re changing what’s going on in the norm-style, amazing things can happen. And that’s one of them. Another one for musicians is Ricky Martin. What he had to go through back in the day and who he is now. But he had ways of painting a focus and a narrative. We’re all different in the way we do our stuff. And politically is Pete Buttigieg. Pete Buttigieg is one of my idols that I love and just how he, I feel like that’s me, where he steps out of his comfort zone. He speaks to the people that you normally don’t speak to. But he speaks to them in so calming way and says, “It’s going to be okay. This is what it’s all about. And this is what America is all about, Freedom, chance to express yourself, being who you are and not being afraid.”

SARA: Yes. That’s fabulous. What a beautiful way to bring it home for us, Alex. Thank you. We’re coming near the end of our time together. But I have two last questions that I want to ask each of you that speak a little bit to the Mama Dragons community and the In The Den community. And one of them in particular, we’ve covered so much about queerness and the Latino culture and growing up. And I’m curious, what is one thing that is bringing you joy right now in your life? Especially considering we just got through talking about Texas politics. That’s really rough.

ALEX: Right.

SARA: There’s a lot of things that are happening in our world that don’t feel joyful. And so I really want to get from people, what’s one thing that’s bringing you joy right now?

GABE: So for me, I’ve always been drawn to music growing up. And being a creative person, I use it. I play music while I’m creating things because it inspires me, gets me in the mood to do things. So my friends and I have very recently – or maybe a few years ago – started going to musicals. And oh, my, gosh. When I tell you that musicals are life-changing. They encompass everything that is art, I think.

SARA: As a theater major, Gabe. I am with you on that.

GABE: You understand. Good.

SARA: So tell me right now, if you could name a favorite, just one, in this moment, what would it be?

GABE: So many. So many good ones. My favorite has got to be – and only because the experience was amazing but the musical itself was great – was Funny Girl. My friends and I flew to New York for a one-day trip to see Lea Michelle on Broadway and it was mind blowing.

SARA: One day, that’s amazing.

GABE: I know it was amazing, we did New York in a day. We want to go back.

SARA: That’s exhausting.

ALEX: Wow. Yes.

SARA: That is awesome. Good for you. I love stories like that. I bet it was spectacular. Alex, what’s bringing you joy right now?

ALEX: Well, let me just go back with the whole musical. This year was my first year ever attending a musical. And I’m not saying I’ve always been in love with musicals and stuff like that because I didn’t know what it was.

SARA: Which did you attend? What was your first one?

ALEX: The Cher Song.

GABE: What’s that? I didn’t see that.

ALEX: It was amazing because just going and seeing her experiences and life and comparing them and putting them to music in her ways, beautiful.

SARA: Well, and let’s all be really clear that Cher is a queer icon and has been for a very long time.

ALEX: Oh, absolutely.

GABE: Yes. Very much. 

ALEX: Absolutely. When she sings of what she fights for and she puts it all in the song and it can make a big difference, you know. But what makes me more happier is just being involved. I love phone calls and say, “Hey, Alex, I need your help. We’re doing this community event for kids giving away backpacks. Can you help me out Saturday? We’re giving away 100 to 150 to 200 for children.” “Absolutely!” And that’s where my heart is, is just giving, giving, giving to the community as much as I can and helping wherever I can be a service as.

SARA: Alex, it sounds to me like that’s an answer to my very last question which is the Mama Dragons name came about to describe the fierceness of Mama and of parents, the fiery ferocity of dragons. And so where are you a dragon in your life? What are you fierce about?

ALEX: I’m very fierce of not putting people down. I’m already blowing up right now because I do not like when someone brings someone down. I do not like whenever someone is telling someone, “That’s not the way to do it. This is the way to do it.” It infuriates me because we’re all different. This is life. We all take things differently from hard situations to happiness, situations like that. And that’s just the way I am, I'm a fighter no matter what. I fight. I fight. I fight. And that’s who I’m always going to be.

SARA: Thank you for that fight. Thank you. Gabe, what are you fierce about?

GABE: Same. Very much same. And I know it’s dumb, but I go back to being a Cancer. I’m very sympathetic and my emotions, I can read the energy between people and I love creating safe spaces for people and it goes back to that where I do not like bringing people down, other people bringing others down because everyone's experiences in life are different. There’s no one path throughout life. It all intertwines and everyone comes from a different culture, from a different background. Even growing up in the same culture, it’s very different, your neighbor from yourself. And so I think it’s a very much love having an understanding that we are never going to have the same experience. No one in life will. And so it opens your mind to being more accepting of what other people are doing and what they say unless it’s being rude towards another demographic, then I think let them live, right? I feel like my friends have taught me something very important that I hold very dear to my heart and that’s the word “Weird” is very rude. Saying something is weird or someone is weird because of something they do, it’s rude because it’s just not normal to you because normal is in the eye of the beholder. Normal to you is very different to what normal is to someone else. So I think creating safe spaces and allowing other people to be themselves authentically without judgment is what I love to do.

SARA: Wow. Thank you both so much. Thank you for being part of this community and helping us create a safe space here on this podcast to reach out to families and parents and young people and to create that uplifting space and sharing your stories with us and with our listeners. It’s been a real delight to chat with you today.

GAVE: Thank you so much.

SARA: I’m so delighted. And thanks for being such advocates in your community for the queer community, for the Latino community. Go Houston!

GABE: Yes. Go Houston. Thank you.

ALEX: And shout out to all the strong Mama Dragons. And I’m sure without them, it would be not as good a world right now. But shout out to all the Mama Dragons for sure. No matter what.

GABE: Yeah.

SARA: Thank you. Thank you both so very much.

JEN: Thanks for joining us In the Den. While we have you, we want to let you know about the inaugural LUV Conference coming up this October 18th and 19th in Salt Lake City, Utah. The conference is all about learning and connecting and creating a more supportive environment for LGBTQ+ individuals and their families. Get more information at www.luvwithoutlimits.org . That’s L-U-V- without limits.org. Or find the link in the show notes under the links from the show. We hope to see you there. 

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