The Mama Dragon Behind the Masterpiece Cake Lawsuit

As Mama Dragons, we often find ourselves in places where we have the opportunity to stand up and advocate for our queer children. Today In the Den, Jen sits down with fierce Mama Dragon Debbie Thomas to talk about her experiences of mothering two LGBTQ+ children, and how she learned to advocate for her child in a big way–all the way to the Supreme Court.

Special Guest: Debbie Thomas

Debbie Thomas is retired after a career working with the public providing assistance through the State of Wyoming and under the Centers of Medicare Services. She is a Mama Dragon living in Central Wyoming and, like many of us, is just struggling to survive in a conservative state.  She was raised in a high demand religion and has 3 grown sons.  Her oldest two sons are part of the LGBTQ+ community. Her oldest son faced discrimination and was refused services from a bakery in Colorado based on who he loved, which ultimately led to the famous Supreme Court case of Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission. 

Links from the Show: 

• Information on the Masterpiece Cake case: https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/17pdf/16-111_j4el.pdf 
• More on the Supreme Court case: https://www.oyez.org/cases/2017/16-111 
• Join Mama Dragons today: www.mamadragons.org

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Transcript

JEN: Hello and welcome to In The Den with Mama Dragons. I’m your host, Jen. This podcast was created to walk and talk with you through this journey of raising happy, healthy, and productive LGBTQ humans. Thanks for listening. We’re glad you’re here.

Last episode we talked with a mom who decided to plant her feet in order to fight for her child in their home state. This week we are going to talk to another empowered mother who was able to advocate with her child in a very specific way. In fact, all the way to the Supreme Court. Many listeners might be familiar with the Masterpiece Cake Case. That is the mom I’m talking about. In reading a little bit about her, there is much of her story that feels familiar to me. I’m sure many of us will recognize ourselves in this story. And I’m excited to dig into that a little bit. Obviously, there’s going to be some things that are different because of a unique legal journey. But I don’t have a lot more to offer. I just want to jump right in and get to know you a little bit, Debbie.

DEBBIE: Thank you. And thank you for the invitation to speak to the other mothers.

JEN: Awesome. Debbie Thomas retired after a career working with the public providing assistance through the State of Wyoming and under the Centers of Medicare Services. She is another powerful Mama Dragon living in Central Wyoming and, like many of us, is just struggling to survive in a conservative state. She was raised in a high demand religion and has 3 grown sons. The oldest two are part of the LGBTQ+ community. Welcome, Debbie, we’re so excited to you In the Den with us.

DEBBIE: Thank you, Jen.

JEN: I want to start the narrative of your own personal journey before we get into any of the details of even parenting. Tell us a little about what life was like for you growing up, when you were young, up to the point when you became an adult. What was childhood like, your family, your neighborhood, all of those sorts of things? Help us get to know you.

DEBBIE: Well, pretty typical childhood. I grew up in the Midwest. What was not extremely typical is very religious background. My mother became involved with the organization Jehovah’s Witnesses when I was first born. And my dad was military and he was brought up Catholic. So there was not a lot of unity when it came to religion. But we were all, six of us children, were brought up in that.

JEN: Where did you fall in that? Were you oldest, youngest?

DEBBIE: I’m actually fourth from the oldest. Not quite middle-child syndrome but a little bit younger. My family ended up moving to California when I was about 10 years old. And that was following the death of my biological father. My mother later married and I continued in the religion of the family. But as I got to be older, I decided it just was not for me. They are very strict on dating and what the roles of a woman or a young girl are. Most of the people that I went to church with, the girls were married by the age of 16. So education was never a priority for me. I was brought up basically to marry when I was out of high school, raise a family, hopefully I would marry another Jehovah’s Witness, and be a homemaker. But when I was 17, I actually met who I thought was the love of my life. And at that point, I thought other religions are so crazy. These people that lived in what they called the world were not bad people.

JEN: So was this 17 year old boy a member of your church or no?

DEBBIE: No. He was not.

JEN: So he was part of the not-so-scary world.

DEBBIE: Yes, he was part of that not-so-scary world. So he was actually four years older. I was 17 when I met him. And so I ended up moving from California back to Illinois to the Midwest and we married when I was 19. And although I did work full time, I never did get to pursue the education that I wanted to out of necessity. When I was 23, we had our first son. And at that point, I did the “good thing” and stayed at home to raise my child.

JEN: Okay. And are you still in Illinois at this time?

DEBBIE: Actually not. When my son was 7 months old, I went back to California. My sister was getting married. And I didn’t realize the signs of an abusive relationship. My husband, my son’s father, was very controlling. And I wasn’t given the opportunity to really speak my mind. And all that pressure to try to be perfect, when I went up to my sister’s wedding, I could feel that weight actually lifted from my shoulder. And for the first time as an adult being on my own, I thought “I don’t want to be this example to my son that this is how he should treat a woman or a future wife or even just a female friend.” So we later divorced. But I never did return to Illinois.

JEN: So you went on vacation to California and just didn’t go back?

DEBBIE: Exactly.

JEN: Okay. So you have this seven-month-old baby and you’re hanging out in California. And what’s the next part of the story? Did you get a job there? Did you live with your sister?

DEBBIE: I was living with my parents, my step dad. I did gain employment and being back in California, there was a familiarity to going to their religious meetings. There were friends that I had that brought me comfort being in their presence because it was such a turmoil in my life being on my own after being under my husband. So I started going back to the meetings although I didn’t believe what was being taught there. I don’t know. This religion to me was somewhat regulated by men and not so much the Bible. So I voiced my opinion. And at that time, my son, Charlie, was probably a year, year and a half. In their religion, when they get rid of you, they call it disfellowshipping. So I was almost treated like an anti-Christ which is ridiculous because I believe in the Bible. It needs to make sense to me. So when Charlie and I moved out of my parents’ home, because they were not allowed to associate with me. And to say it was awkward is an understatement. So I moved out. Got my own apartment. And at that time, I told my son, I made a vow to my son, that he would never experience the kind of rejection that I had based on what you believe, based on who you are. He was a year and a half year old. He came out to me as gay in his 20s. I certainly wasn’t thinking about him being gay at that point. And I didn’t leave the religion for that reason. But I just knew that I would always be a supportive and loving mother.

JEN: I love this idea that you’re just holding this baby. And at one, we sort of sometimes get the idea in our minds that we’re going to be able to create this little person and mold them and teach them. And you were smart enough, wise enough even at that young age to look at this little baby and be like, “Whatever, whoever you are, whatever this looks like, I’m going to be on your side. I’m going to be in your corner. We’re going to face this together.” And I love that he had that his whole life starting from such a young age. We know from your intro you have three grown sons. So Charlie’s the oldest. You have three sons. Talk to me about raising three young children. Were you a single mom? Were you remarried? What ideas did you have in your head about what it looked like to be a good mom to these three boys?

DEBBIE: Again, I just want to elaborate.

JEN: Yeah.

DEBBIE: Knowing I was brought up in such a strict household – I mean, we weren’t even allowed to date without chaperones. And under my husband’s rule, there were certain behaviors that were allowed in public, which is kind of crazy to think of now. So I just knew that that wasn’t the kind of parent that I wanted to be. And I wanted my children to have a choice. So I did eventually remarry. Charlie was about 11 years old when I remarried. And then I gave him two little brothers. They’re 11 months apart. So it was kind of quick. And it was a little bit of a challenge. I mean, I had a husband but he had kind of a rough upbringing. So he didn’t really know the father role because he didn’t have a father. And with Charlie being a little bit older, he was more almost like an uncle to the boys. So I had things going on eventually in high school and elementary school. So it was a busy life. But we did things as much as we could as a family. And I instilled in them the same principle that family is everything. You need that village, I guess you could call it, to really be successful. And so they were close growing up.

JEN: So during any of this time, you’ve got three kids, you’re on your second marriage, you live in California, you’ve had multiple jobs, did you have any sort of concept about what it meant to be LGBTQ+? Had you thought about it at all? Was it on your radar?

DEBBIE: Yes, and only because – I ended up in Wyoming and that’s where my second marriage was.

JEN: Oh, Okay. So you weren’t in California.

DEBBIE: Nope. I left. Part of my family started leaving the Jehovah’s Witnesses. And they were relocating to this area that I ended up moving to.

JEN: Did that kind of reunite you with your family?

DEBBIE: It did. It reunited me with the family that were no longer associated with that religion. I have a younger sister and she was here. My step dad, he had been disfellowshipped and my mom married him when I was still a teenager. And we were close. So I had my step dad, my little sister, and then after moving to Wyoming, two of my brothers also left the religion. They had lost family members so they voluntarily left. So we were all kind of congregating in the state of Wyoming.

JEN: OK. The great reuniting of the family in Wyoming. That’s awesome.

DEBBIE: Yes. Yeah.

JEN: And then what were you thinking about LGBTQ+ issues?

DEBBIE: For a short period, Charlie and I lived in Southern California before the move. And I’ve always known people in the community, never judged them. I didn’t understand, if that makes sense, when you’re kind of a newbie. And I didn’t think about Charlie because I didn’t see any outward signs – which I don’t even know if there are such a thing – but sometimes parents will look back and go, “Oh, I knew it when you were six.” But he was a good lookin’ kid. Always had beautiful girl friends, very popular and I just didn’t see it. But when he was in his 20s, that’s when he came out over the phone to me.

JEN: Let’s talk about that. Talk about when Charlie came out and what that experience was like and how you processed it.

DEBBIE: Well, like a lot of conservative religions, we were brought up that homosexuality was wrong. I didn’t judge people by it, but in the core religious background – and we’re talking 25 years ago almost – so now it’s a little more freer platform to talk about. But even 25 years ago, when my son graduated from high school, that was the year that Matthew Shepard was murdered in Wyoming. And I had no tie or connection to that family. But to see the hatred that was poured out on this young man, and to see the pain that his parents went through, that’s something I’ll never forget. And when Charlie came out, I remember I wept. I was on the phone. And it wasn’t because he was telling me who he was. I had so much fear that, even though at that time he was in college in Iowa, I had so much fear of what would happen to my son after knowing of that incident.

JEN: Yeah. I think a lot of moms relate to that fear, that feeling of fear when your kid first comes out.

DEBBIE: And so I am really curious and I like to do a lot of research. You can tell me the moon is made of cheese and I’m going to read about it. I’m going to find out if it’s not cheese, why do you think it’s cheese. I started just researching and at that time, the big resource, of course, was PFLAG.

JEN: Shout out to PFLAG! We love PFLAG.

DEBBIE: Oh, man. I do too. Because, again, this was almost 25 years ago, but there were a lot of myths about why somebody is gay or lesbian or trans. And one of them is, I kind of raised him as a single parent. Was I overbearing? Had I done something to make him not want to be with a woman? So it’s a journey. And I definitely took that journey. And there was even a point, I hate to even admit, but when I first met some of his gay friends, one of them gave him a cigarette lighter and it was talking about not being straight as an arrow. And I was mad at his friend. I never said anything directly to him. But then I’m like, is it his association. Is he trying to fit in with these new friends? And over the course of my journey and educating myself and talking with other parents, I knew they were all myths. They are who they are and sometimes I compare it to, “Did we make a heterosexual community? Did we do this by simply doing an application form that makes you have to put your child as a male or female gender? I mean, did our society do this to these poor kids?” And I know that’s kind of crazy. But it goes back, as you know, history tells us since the beginning of time that we have pin-holed this gender of male and female. And our poor kids are suffering from it.

JEN: And so talk to me for a little bit before I move on to the details. Because I’m crazy curious about this whole case. But before we do that, in your bio you told us you had two kids. How did the coming out go with the second? Were you like, ‘I’m a professional now? This is going to be easy breezy?” How did that happen?

DEBBIE: Before we go into the case and how that all transpired, we went to Provincetown for my son’s wedding. I’ll just use that little bit. And my middle son who is now 31, Charlie is 44. So, again, 12, 13 years apart. He came out.

JEN: He came out at Charlie’s wedding?

DEBBIE: Well, no. Probably within six months of the wedding. And he was engaged. They even had a child together already. And he just one day came to me and said, “Mom, I think I’m gay.” So both sons came out in their early 20s to me. And then his bigger brother, Charlie, invited him, he said, “You need to come to Denver so you can explore your sexuality.”

JEN: And kind of really figure out who you are.

DEBBIE: Yep. Because he knew living in such a conservative area in Wyoming that he would feel repressed.

JEN: And how awesome for him to have a brother to offer that, to have walked the path and forged that way. I love that for brother. So somewhere, Charlie comes out and you are like, “Well, I already decided that I just love you through everything. So we’ll figure it out.” And you start learning. And how long is it before Charlie starts dating or falls in love and then finally gets engaged?

DEBBIE: I’m going to say over 10 years before he finds his true love. He went to school. Got his degree in Sociology. And so he was working with foster children. But, the majority of the time, he was living in Iowa and St. Louis. So I knew that he was dating. But because of the distance, I never really met anybody, maybe one or two people he was interested in, he brought them home. But when he met his now husband, Dave, that was the one that I really got to know.

JEN: So they get engaged and you’re thrilled, right? You’re excited?

DEBBIE: I am so excited.

JEN: And you got to kind of help. So I don’t know what all you got to help with with planning the wedding except I do know that you went with them to pick out a cake. So tell us about your involvement with the wedding.

DEBBIE: Once they became engaged, they were married less than a year later. And they’d been together for several years. I was in Denver because, again, I live in Wyoming. I was in Denver for a training conference. And I was just telling everybody about every step. We went shopping for a dress for the mother. And a crazy thing, I actually met the folk singer, Arnold Guthrie. He was at the Curtis Hotel, downtown getting ready to do a concert at the Red Rocks with Steve Martin. Now this is like my childhood singing idol from when I was like a pre-teen. And so we’re talking about where they’re getting married. And he’s actually telling me where to go in Provincetown. And we’re talking and it’s been like an hour. He goes into his phone and actually gives me an address of somebody that he knows in Provincetown to go see. And then he was like, “Well, what are you doing tonight?” And I said, “Well, actually I’m looking for this dress and then tomorrow after our conference we’re going to go do some cake testing and floral arrangements – looking at flowers” – and I think in my excitement for my son’s wedding, I missed an opportunity to probably go to his show at the Red Rocks. I think he was actually asking what am I doing tonight.

JEN: Oops.

DEBBIE: So the conference is done. I had arrived to, at that time they had an apartment. And we’re just all excited because not only are we doing wedding stuff, which millions of parents do. Everybody, especially the mother of a groom, neither one are brides, thus, grooms. It’s exciting. He’s my first born, first marriage. I’m excited. So we get in the car and the first stop is going to be the bakery. Now, the area where they’re getting married, the venue event planner, he gives us the name of this shop because you don’t want a cake to travel 30 miles across city traffic. So I’m sitting in the back seat. My soon-to-be-son-in-law to be is driving and I’m actually looking through a binder that my son had prepared with cake designs and different flavors that we wanted to taste. And he had made an appointment several weeks before. So we’re thinking we’re going to go to the bakery and then we’re going to go to the florist. It’s also my soon-to-be-son-in-law’s actual birthday. So we’re meeting his parents at a five-star restaurant. I mean, it’s a big deal. It’s a big day.

JEN: Cake and flowers and birthday, and that’s a lot going on.

DEBBIE: And a wedding cake. So this is, to be honest with you, this is my turning point. This is when my son-in-law’s birthday, he turned 28, and I became an advocate. Still a very supportive mom, there for people to reach out to because again this was long enough ago that not everyone was comfortable talking about it, even parents. And we walked into that bake shop so excited and we were told to take a seat. There was a couple of people in the bakery. And the owner, who is Jack Phillips, he tells us that he’ll be right with us and motions us to a seat. And that’s when it all began.

JEN: So I’m such an overprotective mom in general. And your son’s getting married and you’re so excited. It’s this great day. I’m imagining that you have no expectations except joy. It’s just going to be a good day.

DEBBIE: Exactly.

JEN: You’re going to get the cake. It’s all like, what could possibly go wrong. But something obviously did go wrong. So tell us about that. How did it play out?

DEBBIE: Well, we all hear that term, “No shoes, No service.” They can refuse people in their stores, right? But you don’t expect that. So we’re sitting at this small table and the first thing that Jack Phillips asks is “Who’s getting married?” And they both just said, “We are.” And at that point he said, “I will not make you a cake.”

JEN: Did you know why at that point? Was it super obvious why?

DEBBIE: Well, to be honest, I do know why but I didn’t know why.

JEN: Right now you know, but at the time, were you, like, confused?

DEBBIE: In the court case, they actually got the time frame off a little bit. Because I worked as a state worker, I was really big on writing narratives. So I’m a big note taker. So that day I actually went home and wrote the actual events. So what he told us is that he would not make a cake to celebrate an illegal marriage. He didn’t go into religion right away.

JEN: Was it illegal at the time?

DEBBIE: It was.

JEN: Okay.

DEBBIE: In the state of Colorado, they recognized civil unions but it wasn’t until three years later.

JEN: So Colorado it was illegal at the time.

DEBBIE: Yes. So I’m sitting there. We’re all dumbfounded. And I look at him and I said, “Well, but they’re not getting married in Colorado. They’re getting married in – and I have a hard time saying – Massachusetts.

JEN: Okay. They’re getting married in Massachusetts.

DEBBIE: Thank you. I appreciate that. So I’m thinking, “Well, this guy just needs to be educated. That he’s not supporting a civil union or an illegal marriage. He’s making a cake for a hometown reception.”

JEN: Cake for a party.

DEBBIE: Yes. And he got kind of loud and he repeated that he wouldn’t make it. Well, the people that were in his bakery, it was like a mom and grandma with grandchildren. They were so offended, they said something to Jack Phillips and they walked out of his shop. Charlie and I sat there for a minute. And this is public record and it’s kind of crude. But my son-in-law said, “Well, F*** you. You homophobic pastry boy.” And he left.

JEN: I’m sort of on his team.

DEBBIE: And we followed. But we were just, I had never seen it happen. And the look on my son’s face just immediately tore my heart out of my chest.

JEN: Oh, yeah.

DEBBIe: And we walked to the car and we’re like, “Well, we’re going to go to the gayest bakery in Denver.” And where this particular cake, if people could see what the cake looked like, It wasn’t even going to have a topper on it. It was just an elegant, beautiful cake. There was no rainbow. They didn’t want to make it a “gay” wedding. They wanted a wedding.

JEN: Right.

DEBBIE: And they wanted a reception for their celebration. So at that point, we’re just, again, you see the signs, “We have the right to refuse service.” And we didn’t go to the florist. We kind of lost our buzz. So we went back to their apartment just to kind of regroup before going to what would be a celebration of Dave’s birthday.

JEN: Did you have any clue about anti-discrimination legislation? Did you just kind of think the world was nicer than it is? Did you understand what was happening?

DEBBIE: I did. But there’s a legal catch to this whole thing. So Dave goes home and he puts a post on Facebook. “This is what happened, this is where it happened at. You need to know.” Just kind of like an angry, but telling people this is still happening. And if you want to support us, don’t do business with him. We found out through my niece, who is a CPA in California, and she’s like I am. She’s got a curious mind. Colorado has a public accommodations law. And most States do. But not all states protect sexual orientation in a public accommodation. So, unfortunately, in Wyoming, they wouldn’t have broken the law because we have gender, sex, religion, ethnicity, but they don’t have sexual orientation as a protected class. We found out through my niece that he can’t do that. This is not a matter of he has a right because, if that baker makes a wedding cake for myself because I’m heterosexual, he can’t not make a cake for a couple with a different sexual orientation.

JEN: Right. It’s not just about being a jerk. He’s actually violated the law.

DEBBIE: He did violate the law. Well, through the course of my son-in-law’s, his Facebook page, his post went viral. And within hours they were getting calls from advocates, from lawyers, I mean, people that were in the know were reaching out immediately. And over the course of the next few months, I cannot tell you how many thousands -- and I mean literally thousands – of chefs from around the world, even in nations that you would think they wouldn’t. I’m talking like the Middle East and very conservative nations. They were offering to provide a cake for them to wrong the right. But it was beyond that and it was never – even though it was an amazing outpouring of love. It was never about a cake. It was about discriminating against someone because of who they love. It was that simple.

JEN: Were you involved? Was he checking in with you? When they were trying to decide if they wanted to take it to court, if they wanted to pursue legal action, were you involved in any of that or were you kind of just hearing about it from him?

DEBBIE: I was involved because I was an eyewitness. And to be honest, they never sought any legal advice. Through the course of the story going viral, the Civil Rights Commission actually heard about it. They did an investigation and they brought a case against Masterpiece Cake Shop.

JEN: You guys were just witnesses in the case.

DEBBIE: It became Craig Versus Masterpiece Cake Shop. And it ended up going through all the courts in Colorado. But we found out they were not the only plaintiffs. Jack Phillips would’ve been the defendant. So people started coming forward and reaching out because it just blew up on the internet, the story. We heard of people being turned away by Jack Phillips. There was a couple that wanted to have cupcakes at their civil union. And he told the girls when they came in that he wasn’t going to serve them just like he wouldn’t serve a pedophile.

JEN: Ouch.

DEBBIE: So I think in the original hearing, I think there were four, possibly five, other couples that gave written statements.

JEN: So it goes first to the state courts, right?

DEBBIE: Right.

JEN: And what was the result of that?

DEBBIE: Well, the Supreme Court in Colorado, after the lower courts had heard the case, they wouldn’t hear the case because they felt the state ruled properly. So each time it was heard and a decision was made, there’s an organization called the Alliance Defending Freedom, the acronym ADF. And their attorneys picked up the case for Jack Phillips. And that is who represented them. So when the case went to the Supreme Court, it was the ADF on behalf of Jack Phillips that brought the case to the Supreme Court to be heard.

JEN: And is that when it all kind of hit? I know everyone was paying attention when it was a social media post. But then it became this big war between religious freedom and equal accommodations. Violating his deeply held religious beliefs versus people being able to go shopping in the public square. How much did that media frenzy seep into their lives, where it impacted everything? Because this whole case lasted for five years, didn’t it?

DEBBIE: Longer, actually. So it happened in 2012. And over the course of six years, that’s when it was heard at the Supreme Court. But this was never originally about religious freedom. Jack Phillips never stated that. It may have been a mistake. But the next morning, I’m thinking again, he just doesn’t understand they’re not having an illegal wedding in Colorado. So I actually woke up at 5:00 in the morning. And I was getting ready to leave for Wyoming. And I called and I told him who I was. And I said, “I just need to know why? You’re rejecting two of God’s children and I don’t understand why? They’re not being married in Colorado.” And at that point, he said it was his religious beliefs that same sex weddings were wrong. And he said, “I’m a Christian.” And I replied simply, “I’m a Christian. And I believe you turned away two of God’s children. And it’s not our job to judge. That’s to a higher power.” And we, at the end, agreed to disagree. Again, I didn’t know it was against the law. I didn’t know about Colorado's Public Accommodation Law. And that’s where we left it.

JEN: And then, as they’re moving through all these years going through the lower courts and the upper courts and all the depositions and conversation and the interviews, are they pretty much just living a normal life, like they got married, they went to work? Or was it more consuming than that?

DEBBIE: It was all consuming. It was all consuming. At the time, Jim Omburger, that case was being handled by the ACLU. And they did not want to take on Charlie and Dave’s case. They wanted to, but not before that decision was made. So, in the meantime between interviews, articles being written, public speaking, classes being taken, they were being approached for live television shows, a possible movie deal on it. But it was all consuming. They are just now, and they’ve been married, it’ll be 12 years, they’re just now settling into a routine. It was all consuming between interviews and the legal matters. They were never pursuing anything monetarily. There’s been allegations of, “Well, you set up Jack Phillips. You knew he wouldn’t make a cake.” Allegations of bankrupting. All these things, it was simply, the principle of “We’re not going back to the 1960s and having people’s rights taken away from them.” You can imagine if you or I walked into a restaurant and we were with a man. And if that restaurant believed that you shouldn’t be spoken to because you’re a woman, or you should not be served the same food as your husband or your friend, you know how we would feel. And that’s how they were made to feel. “We will sell a cake if your mom, who’s heterosexual, wants to get married. But you’re not good enough. I don’t believe in you.” And that’s where they got into trouble with public accommodations. If you go to Masterpiece Cake Shop, and they’re in Lakewood Colorado, they’ve got a website. If you click on wedding cakes, Jack Phillips cannot make a wedding cake because he refuses to sell to same-sex or heterosexual couples. He won’t do it. So he’s still not under Colorado law allowed to do it.

JEN: How did the community respond? Did they feel like Colorado was at war with them? Or did they feel like Colorado had their back? Were they scared to go to the grocery store?

DEBBIE: Those are good questions. What we found is in person, in audiences, on the street, people were supportive. And then you’ve got internet trolls. We’ve all been threatened. I’ve been told, “I hope your son dies from anal cancer.” And I remember one time there was a remark and somebody made it from their work computer. And it showed he worked at a University.

JEN: Ouch.

DEBBIE: And I simply said, I wonder what your employer would think of such a hateful comment. And then he deleted it, of course. But there’s trolls. And everybody told me from the very beginning, I’m a kind-hearted person and I feel deep for people, including myself. And they told me, “Do not read the comments. People are so brave on the internet. They’ll say the most hateful things to you.” But I actually did it reversed. And to me, it’s like I need to know what their issues are. What are they saying so that when I did articles of support then I can address those concerns. Otherwise, I wouldn’t have a clue.

JEN: So you say this was your catalyst between just being a loving mom – you loved your kid, you loved his fiancé, you were helping them with their wedding, just doing the mom thing – and then you realized that you needed to be an advocate, not just a supportive mom.

DEBBIE: Right. And I kind of fell into it. I mean, like a lot of organizations, they’re always trying to raise money and they liked how I addressed people and how I wrote. With it being my son, there was absolutely no way I could just hug him and go forward. He needed a voice. And he was an adult. He was in her early 30s, but he needed a voice.

JEN: And to have you in his corner.

DEBBIE: Yes.

JEN: Before I let you go, I’m hoping you’ll just share how it felt to know that there was a national debate happening about your child and tha discrimination was real? How did it feel for you to carry that as a mom?

DEBBIE: I felt like I had a mission. It was people that were judging who didn’t know my son. I felt, as a US Citizen, as a working man who paid his taxes, followed the law of the land, that this should not be happening. And, I mean, I know it sounds corny, and it’s been said, but you know what? If you don’t want to be gay, don’t be gay. If you don’t want to marry the same sex that you are, don’t. But my son has every legal right to be who he is and to love who he loves. I know I was reaching out to people, it could’ve been a scary story but it wasn’t. It turned out to be amazing. Right after the Supreme Court Justices heard the case, you’re kind of let out a side door. And as we went around the corner to prepare for this huge amount of cameras and people wanting to talk to us, there was a man and a woman that came rushing toward us. And we were all kind of like, “What are they doing?” And they came up and they hugged my son and my son-in-law and thanked them for standing up. And that’s something within the community that they were told over and over, “Thank you for being a voice for us.” And I had so many kids that came to me after speaking and they were, “I wish I had you as a mom.“ And I said, “I wish you would’ve been at my table.” Because the stories of not-supportive parents, it’s heartbreaking. There’s people into their adult years that don’t even know that they’ve lost a parent because they’ve been cut out. There was a reporter in DC that somebody told me later had tears in her eyes. And she was a war reporter. She’d seen it all. When you love somebody and you support them, you want them to be treated right. And to me, it’s a natural thing. And that’s one reason I love your Mama Dragons. I’ve always called myself a mama bear. But dragons are fiery!

JEN: Yep. Sometimes you’ve got to get a little fiery for your kids.

DEBBIE: You do. You do. But you know, it’s in your own time. not everybody’s a teacher. Not everybody is comfortable speaking. I was extremely shy when I was in high school. But you just, what is it, out of necessity you come out of your shell. But when you fiercely love, it just happens.

JEN: That’s so beautiful. I want to thank you so much for coming today and sharing your story with us. I’m hoping that everybody who listens feels that little growing of strength in their belly that they’re willing to fight and protect people’s access to basic human rights and dignity. Thank you so much for coming and sharing with us.

DEBBIE: Thank you for allowing me to reach out. So I appreciate it. Thank you.

JEN: Thanks for joining us In the Den. While we have you, we want to let you know about the inaugural LUV Conference coming up this October 18th and 19th in Salt Lake City, Utah. The conference is all about learning and connecting and creating a more supportive environment for LGBTQ+ individuals and their families. Get more information at www.luvwithoutlimits.org . That’s L-U-V- without limits.org. Or find the link in the show notes under the links from the show. We hope to see you there. 

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