Dealing with Microagressions

Note: This episode is a replay of a past episode (E44) that felt timely as the holidays approach again. 

We asked members of our group to share some of the most hurtful things that had been said to them or their LGBTQ children, even if the speaker’s intentions were good.  The response was absolutely overwhelming. Some of the reported comments would be considered microaggressions and some were intentionally cruel. Just in time for all of the upcoming holiday gatherings, Jen brings back therapist Lisa Tensmeyer Hansen to talk through some common categories of microaggressions and possible ways to respond. 

Special Guest: Lisa Tensmeyer Hansen

Lisa Tensmeyer Hansen is the clinical director and founder of Flourish Therapy, Inc., (Flourish), a behavioral health clinic in Provo, Utah, which she founded in 2017. Lisa received a B.S. from BYU in 1990 as valedictorian, an M.S. in 2012 and Ph.D. in 2017, both at BYU, focusing on improving the mental health of LGBTQ+ people in conservative families/communities. She lives with her husband in Payson, Utah, where together they made a home for 7 children (and a few extras) and now have 18 grandchildren.

Links from the Show:

• Flourish Therapy: https://flourishtherapy.org/
• Join Mama Dragons today at www.mamadragons.org  

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Transcript

JEN: Hello and welcome to In The Den with Mama Dragons. I’m your host, Jen. This podcast was created to walk and talk with you through the journey of raising happy, healthy, and productive LGBTQ humans. Thanks for listening. We’re glad you’re here.

As we get closer to the 2024 election and the holiday season that follows, our team was discussing the heaviness and contemplating all the difficult potential conversations coming our direction. And we thought that might be true for our listeners also. We decided it would be wise to remind everyone of the information that we learned a couple of years ago about how to navigate tricky conversations with family and friends. So we’re going to replay an episode from 2023 that we found very powerful. Our hope is that it will refresh memories in preparation for all the meet-ups that come at the end of each calendar year.

We asked members of our group to share some of the things that have been said to them or their children that hurt, even if the speaker’s intentions were good.  The response was absolutely overwhelming.  Honestly, it was pretty difficult to read through and sort through.  Some of the things were microaggressions. Some of them were intentionally cruel. We don’t want to talk about these things in a way that would be harmful to our listeners.  But we want to talk about why they’re harmful so we can all step-up our game a little and NOT hurt people accidentally.  And maybe find some solidarity with each other in some of this hurt. We brought one of our favorite podcast therapists to help us navigate these tricky waters. 

 Dr. Lisa Tensmeyer Hansen is the clinical director of Flourish Therapy in Provo Utah.   Lisa received a B.S. in 1990 , an M.S. in 2012 and Ph.D. in 2017, focusing on improving the mental health of LGBTQ+ people in conservative family and community. We are excited to welcome you back, Lisa!  

LISA:  Thank you. I’m happy to be here.

JEN:   Now, the holidays are right around the corner when tensions can be high and expectations are not always reasonable. And people with different views are often brought together. So, let’s solve the problem of harmful messaging with families. We can just solve it in an hour. 

LISA:  Let’s solve it. 

JEN:   Just an hour. It’s fine. But, I collected 100 phrases and tried to sort them into some different categories to make some more manageable conversation happen around these. But before I start with those, I was hoping you could help us understand something maybe about how our brains and emotion work. One thing that I noticed over and over as I was reading these both with myself and the others who responded was how clearly and intensely they remembered the details of these words.  And I’m not a researcher, but I’m confident that the people who said them probably can’t even remember that the words came out of their mouth. The experience is clearly different intensities for the speaker and the receiver. Can you talk for just a minute about that phenomenon and why it is so important for us to be careful with our words even when they seem like a not a big deal to us? 

LISA:  Yes. As human beings we are intensely sensitive to and aware of whether people we love believe in us. And we will pay close attention to everything that comes out of people’s mouths about whether they might believe in us, like us, enjoy us, or whether they’re harboring judgements about us. We just have our radar out for that. Generally, when we’re just talking and talking with people, we are not super sensitive about whether our words carry judgment or carry some kind of “I don’t really believe in you.” So we don’t really own that in what we say. But when we receive it, we are deeply sensitive to it. That’s just how our psyche’s are set up. I don’t know if God intended it that way or it’s too much sunshine. I’m not sure. But that does seem to be a universal aspect of us, particularly in families.

JEN:   So, here is what I’m thinking.  I’m going to give you the broad general category that I created to combine some of the quotes. And then I’m going to just give maybe four or five examples of what it might sort of sound like when we hear it. And then I’m going to let you take off from there. So, the first category I came up with were people looking for something to “blame” for the fact that an LGBTQ person is LGBTQ+. These sorts of things might sound like:

 "Were they molested as a child?"
 “Well, it has gotten really trendy these days.”

“We all know how her parents are.”
 “Social media is to blame for this.”

“She isn’t gay.  She just wants to rebel.”

So this big broad category of “There’s got to be an excuse.”

LISA:  Wow. That is a very common one. And usually in any family there are some people who are legitimately wondering these things about what has created what always appears to families be a shift in identity rather than this person, “Oh, this person is learning something new about themselves.” The family is dealing with it as, “Wait a minute. This is not what we expected.” And so they look for something that created that shift. So, if we want to start with why are they saying these things? Let’s start with they legitimately care about the person and they’re trying to figure out something that makes sense so that they can continue to be part of the narrative. Generally, it’s not as judge-y as it sounds. The  person who’s speaking it wants to be involved, wants to be engaged, wants to be connected to the story somehow. And they’re offering their own ignorant way of being engaged in the family story. So, if we start with, maybe it’s not always a good idea to start with “What were they thinking? Or Why could they possibly start with that?” Let’s start with it’s their ignorance showing. If we want to start with a compassionate view, it’s generally because they are interested and curious and want to connect with us somehow.

Then, if we want to say, why does it hurt? Because it seems to suggest that it doesn’t come from anything legitimate inside of a person, but that it’s an outside influence, without which, that person would not have an identity that they’re trying to express. It diminishes the power of a personal identity. Having our personal identity doubted, diminished, treated as if it’s not valid, has a more powerful influence than almost anything else you can do to a person psychologically. So a person who receives a message of “Gosh. We think it’s because they were molested.” – which used to be what was studied and is now it’s determined that that’s not a cause of sexual or gender identity. There may be some connections, but it’s been ruled out as a cause. Much more likely that people who are a minority in sexuality or gender are molested because of their identity and not vice versa – or if someone is accusing a young person of their being involved in a trend, a trend of friends or a trend of social media. It diminishes the fact that the young person has actually found something that’s meaningful to them. And it hurts because they recognize that what’s meaningful to them is being dismissed and trivialized. Speaking of it as a rebellion also suggests that there’s not something there that a person can connect to, but that it is opposed to the family value rather than actually being an important part of the family of that person, whoever it is.

So it dismisses, excludes, and creates hurt and disconnection. So the message that they get is that they don’t really belong in the family system and what they’re bringing is not really meaningful. There’s nothing that the family can connect with because it’s opposed. So I’m guessing that the next question about this would be what do you say to someone who makes a comment like that, that you don’t actually want to escalate a family problem over the turkey or while you’re creating a dinner or trying to enjoy people afterwards. When someone says something ignorant and thoughtless, it helps to start from this place that I call, “They’re saying it because they want to connect and they care.” That may be really hard to believe. But as a listener, it actually helps you be in a place that is easier to deal with.

So make that little mental shift. “They’re saying it because they want to connect and they care.” And then something like, “I’m not sure that has anything to do with it.” That is, I’m owning it. I’m not commenting on it. I’m not judging it. I’m not even throwing out research. I’m not weighing things. I’m not taking it too seriously. I’m just saying, “I’m not sure that has anything to do with it.” Then, if they want to ask an interested question or offer some kind of judgement, I can assess whether it’s a sincere question or if it’s just a push back or they feel embarrassed about what they’ve said and they’re trying to just start explaining it more.

JEN:   All right. Are you ready for category number two?

LISA:  Okay.

JEN:   I’ve got a lot of these for you. Hopefully, at the end, we’ll start to notice some patterns of how to respond. Our second category that I came up with is people wildly misunderstanding appropriate conversation around trans people or transition. There were so many examples of these to choose from. And I kind of divided them into four little categories from there.

The first one was all things related to genitals and surgery and medical care.
 Policing bathrooms.

Refusal to use names and pronouns.
 And anything connected to the ideas of “Well, if a grown adult wants to do this, but we need to protect children” when it comes to affirming care.

So that’s a huge giant lump of all things trans. But I kind of thought, as you talked about them, that they would overlap enough that we could kind of tackle them as a group. Even if you just take them one by one.

LISA:  Let’s take them one by one. All things related to genitals. So, I don’t know why this seems to be where people begin. But somehow they feel like they need to know what’s inside someone’s pants and whether a person has got “THE SURGERY” It’s just kind of a bizarre thing that almost anybody who’s got a family member or who is experiencing this in some compassionate way it never fails to startle as though ones been poked with a hot poker. Why does it hurt? Because it’s so totally inappropriate which is the word that you used to describe this whole section. So we’ll just say these hurt because they are inappropriate and they indicate an invasion of privacy. Almost all things about relation to genitals would be inappropriate.  

And because we start in first grade with lining up as boys and girls or however, almost everyone who’s above the age of 10 has done in their lives. We start life thinking that we’re entitled to know if someone is this or that. That that’s part of the indexing that we’re allowed to do about people. And that by naming themselves as a girl or a boy we are tacitly telling people what our genitals are and we’re not being explicit about it. But everyone can know and so people have a sense that they’re entitled to know by your revealing whether you’re a girl or a boy.

In the 1800s, one of the crimes that calls attention. There was a rash of what they called female husbands. That is people representing themselves to be male and getting married and then after marriage found out they were female husbands. Well, we’re entitled to know that before you do anything in the world, we’re entitled to know what’s really in your pants is the whole idea. And there still a strong sense of that in our world. I think that’s where all things related to genitals comes from, comments about that.

So a decent response when someone says have they had the surgery or are they a boy or a girl, what’s in their pants, is just to raise your eyebrows and to pause and to say, “I’m not sure I’m going to discuss that.” If somebody presses a little bit more, you can say “Well, generally, talking about people’s genitals is not something I want to do over the holidays.” Of course, not at any time.

If someone wants to ask specifically about surgery, it’s okay to say, “It’s very interesting. Many people who don’t feel aligned with their gender never have surgery, but they’re still legitimately whoever they say they are.” Just something as simple as that and, “There are many different kinds of surgeries people have. If they want to talk about them, generally, they will. But I probably wouldn’t ask.” Just something general like that let’s people know where you are without actually having to clash up with their question about genitals. If they insist, well, I want to know because I want to know which of my kids they can have a sleepover with or which of my kids they can play with or if I can trust them. I think it’s okay as a parent, or as an aunt, or as a sister, or as sibling to say, “I’m pretty sure you can trust them. You get to decide who to trust.” Just as gently as you can.

JEN:   Or, “Would children’s genitals have anything to do with that?”

LISA:  Good answer, Jen. “I’m not sure genitals have anything to do with whether you can trust people.” Good answer.

JEN:   All right. If we jump to category three, this was a lot of people offering up ideas about how it’s only a phase or how it’s temporary. These things might sound like :

“She is really too young to understand.”
  Or even temporary like, “It is only for this life. In the next life they’ll be healed or fixed or straight.”
  “Maybe he needs to be with a woman before he tries to decide.”

“Don’t worry.  Most of them outgrow it.”
  And I thought that this one kind of went along with “If a grown adult wants to transition, but let’s leave the kids alone. The kids are too young. The kids are too innocent.” So those kind of went together. I’m trying to connect them a little bit.

LISA:  I think a good answer for all of these is simply, “I’m not sure that’s going to be helpful.” Period.

JEN:   That could go with the whole hour of this.

LISA:  It really could. Yes. But particularly with these about it being a phase. These can get into such detail if you start offering information about why you don’t think it’s a phase, someone else can come back with what they’ve heard about social media. Or if you offer any explanation at all, these are bound to create an argument. The best way I know, when you as the parent or as the family member or as the person who’s being assaulted with these things is just to say, “I don’t think that’s helpful.” If people are being compassionately interested, you can offer more. And you can always come back to, “That’s not going to be helpful either. There’s more to it than that.”

JEN:   I like that repeated idea. “That’s not helpful. Also, that’s not helpful. And, still,  still not, still not helpful.”

LISA:  Which suggests that you have a lot more information that you’re just not spouting.

JEN:   Not trying to engage with yet. So, category four was all things related to religion and theology and God and sinning. Which I thought went along kind of with that idea with refusing to use names and pronouns because it tends to come under the idea of my beliefs, “I have to live according to my beliefs, so I can’t call you that.” We are talking about ideas like:

“Well, we know how God feels about this.”
  I think some people are well intended, right? So I’ll hear sometimes,

“Well, I leave that judgement to God.”

“We are praying for your family.”

“God doesn’t make mistakes”

And people attach their religious views, not only to project onto you, but also to control their own behavior. The reason I can’t attend your wedding, the reason I can’t call you the proper name is because God says I can’t. So this is a painful one. People are attached, deeply, and their own religious views are important. But talk about this with me for a minute.

LISA:  This can be an especially tender one because usually the family that’s being diminished or made to be not what God wants, often has really tender feelings about being excluded from religious connections or religious ideas. I find this one is the one that induces families most to say something like, “I don’t think we’ll be able to participate this year.” Or, “If there are people who will not use appropriate pronouns and name, then we’ll have our own Thanksgiving.” This is the kind of thing that invites families to draw lines. “If you’re going to be praying for us because our child is nonbinary, you can do that without us there this year. Anyone who wants to use pronouns and appropriate name, you’re welcome to come to our house afterward for dessert.” Or something like this that says we’re not prepared to come and be religiously seconded in your home.

JEN:   What about just in the regular conversation. I find these are the sorts of things were people really do have the best of intentions. Like, if only you knew how upsetting this was going be to God, then you would make a different choice.

LISA:  Yes. “If you really understood the gospel of Jesus Christ, then you would do something different. So let me explain it again to you and maybe this time it will take root.” I think this is what people think when they’re saying these things. Yes. Well intentioned. So, what to respond in regular conversation. Generally, it’s helpful to say something like, “I’m not sure you got the same revelation that we did about what’s best for our family. So I hope you will leave that to us.”

JEN:   I like that. It’s just painful. It’s painful when things come up. All of them kind of connected back to that trans thing, that whole trans section. But, for category five, I had unsolicited advice. So, a lot of this was parents saying, “It’s great if she wants to cut her hair and look like a boy, but don’t let her do hormones. Those are permanent things.” Lots of advice about how lovely it would be to just choose celibacy and be happy. Lots of suggestions that good parents would put their foot down. “You need to put your foot down and put a stop to this right now.” All the world of unsolicited advice.

LISA:  In addition to some of the things we’ve talked about before, a good response to this one is, “Sounds like it’s really important to you.” Which makes it as it should be, about the person who’s talking rather than about the person they’re trying to get to take this on. “Is there more you want to say about why this is so important to you?” So that it’s established, this is about you. You’re telling me something that’s really important to you. You’re telling me this is difficult for you. And that’s where I would go with this. “Sounds like this is really difficult for you. Sounds like watching my child go through this is really hard.” And, once again going back to the other one, “I’m not sure that advice would be helpful for your family.”

JEN:   You’re so much more compassionate than I am, because I’m thinking, “No, thank you.”

LISA:  Well, Jen, that’s a dang fine response too. “No, thank you.” I like it.

JEN:   I think because we’ve experienced it so much over the past ten years, I can feel how hard it is when people are saying things to you that you find repulsive or disgusting or offensive or hurtful or so misunderstood. And to be like, “I will feel compassion for you and take care of your feelings.”

LISA:  It really is a higher level isn’t it. But “No, thank you.” is fine. Also, so is putting up your hand and saying, “I’ve heard that one. It’s not helpful.” Is also okay if you need it just to stop.

JEN:   I like that. I don’t care about your feelings anymore. I need you to, shhh. That’s like my gut. So I had these categories and I’m still jumping all over the place. I’m sorry.  But go back to the ideas of politics, including this with policing bathrooms. When people say things like:

“I think people should make their own choices but it’s the government’s job to protect the morality of the country.”

Or any version of that when you’re talking about politics and they’re like, “Well, politically, I disagree but I still love you. You just need to use the bathroom assigned to your birth gender.” Any of those thing related to policing bathrooms and politics.

LISA:  If you decide to jump into that fray – and that’s an enter-at-ones-risk if it’s not something that you need to protect a person from – it’s often good to say something like, “I wish it were that simple.”

JEN:   OH, I like that one.

LISA:  You don’t have to say more if you don’t want to. You can just maintain the, “Ugh, it’s never been that simple.” If people want to ask more, you can say, “Well, a lot of the trans people I know, if you saw them in the bathroom of their original birth certificate, you might be more alarmed. And I am alarmed at the number of trans people who will not use a bathroom during the day because they’re afraid of people like you.”

JEN:   Okay. I should be taking notes. When I listen later, I’ll take notes. All right, category six was a hard one for me to read because these were largely the people who believe that they’re saying the right thing. The people who feel like they’re going out of their way to be nice and loving, and it lands like a ton of bricks. And it’s almost harder to address because they’re trying so hard to be like, “I’m not one of the bad guys.” And maybe it would even be heard differently depending on who delivered it. But like:

 “Don’t get me wrong.  I LIKE people who are gay.”
  “Why would you do that, you are such a beautiful girl”
  "We love gay people! We never agree with them, but we love them!"

"We love you anyway."

“I’m fine as long as you don’t try to shove it down my throat.”

“Let’s just agree to disagree.”

You can hear how they feel so good about what they’re saying right? And also why it does not feel so good when you’re the receiver.

LISA:  No. They think they’re being generous when they’re actually emphasizing how judgmental they are. You want to take them one by one. I’m not sure there’s an answer that applies to all of them. That’s quite a list.

JEN:   Is there a way to say, like, “I know you meant that in a nice way, but I’m not sure you heard it the way it actually sounds.”

LISA:  That’s actually a really beautiful response. “I know you’re trying to be helpful, but that’s really hurting me right now.”

JEN:   “That is not as nice as you think it is.” What are people trying to – it feels almost like an intention to hold paradox for them.

LISA:  Sure. And it’s them wanting you to know that they’re trying, that they’re not like the other people they know. They want to be appreciated for trying and they also want to think of themselves as somebody who isn’t won over by vice, or by something that they shouldn’t be won over by. So they’re hoping to be admired a bit for being in the center. Caring, loving, and yet still so not hood-winked by the gender and sexuality. So they’re trying, yes. And I like what you just said. Say it again.

JEN:   “I know you were trying to be nice. It’s not heard the way you’re intending it to be heard. That’s not what it means to someone who’s hearing it.”

LISA:  Yes. And that probably will evoke explanation and just put a period on it and say, “If you want to know more about why that hurt or why that came across differently, I’m happy to talk to you about it, but now is probably not a great time.”

JEN:   “Right now, I’m not  going to be nice.” I actually have said that which is probably not the best. But, if we talk about this right now, I can’t be nice. So I’m going to have to wait and talk to you about it later.

LISA:  I love that, Jen.

JEN:   All right. So, my final category that lumped together – and then I’m going to go through a bunch of examples that fall into all the categories. The idea that like the individual is so loved, but we’re going to have to politely exclude them this time. Things like:  

 “Of course, Your daughter can come to the party but, obviously, she can’t sleep over.”
  “We love that he’s a scout. We love having him in scouts. But we can’t really include him at scout camp.”

Or the infamous, “Of course you are welcome, just don’t tell anyone that you’re queer. Be private about it.”

This idea of like, “We love you so much that we are generously allowing you to participate a little bit.” These come up a lot, so what do we have?

LISA:  This comes up sort of in the same category of you may not understand how harmful what you’re saying is. “I don’t even know where to begin with it unless you’re really interested in understanding how harmful it is.” And then, again, these are the kinds of things that cause many families to just withdraw all together from family reunions, family sleepovers, ward activities, neighborhood things. So hopefully there are some people who would respond to that with, “Oh, why is that harmful? Why isn’t that just obvious that if she’s gay she can’t participate in a sleepover?” If there are people to whom that is so obvious that they’re not even open, it’s probably not a good idea for a daughter to have a sleepover there, or whatever identity. But, hopefully, by saying something like, “You may not understand how harmful what you just said is,” may open the door.

JEN:   I like that you touched on that idea. I hadn’t even considered this when I was thinking of all of these things. When I’m reading them, they’re so obviously hurtful to me. Just as obvious to the speaker might be how just true it is. All right. Now that we kind of went through the high level of categories, I maybe should have slowed this down and just focused there.

LISA:  There’s a lot there. And I’m sure anybody listening has already heard 30 or 40 that they have experienced and remember. And I kind of want to address one thing that you sort of mentioned earlier. Which is, whenever someone says to mom or mother-in-law, “Do you remember saying this?” Mom or mother-in-law will probably say, “I never said that.” And we know that that message came through. We remember the inflection, and how the ‘R’ was rolled. We remember everything about the words. Sometimes it’s really helpful to say something like, “It would be really helpful if you could understand what it was like for me to get that message. Even if you don’t remember saying it, I will feel more connected to you if you will hear what it was like for me.”

JEN:   Is it just a personal thing. Does it matter. If they were horrible but then they got better, do you just be grateful that they stopped saying horrible things. Or do you need to go back to have healthy relationships and say, “This part of our journey was a little rocky and I don’t even know if you realize how rocky it was.”

LISA:  It depends on the level of closeness that you’re willing to brave or risk. For some people, it’s not worth going back because they do not have the capacity to go back and let it be about your feelings. The minute you go back, it’s about them and how they must’ve been a terrible parent, and they’re sorry they ruined your life. And it becomes about them and the risk of them doing that is not worth the attempt.

But, in order for there to be closeness and a sense of ease and enjoyment, there does usually have to be an opportunity to go back and say, “Do you have the capacity?” – These are therapy words, use your own words –  “Would there be a time when we could talk about what happened when I shared with you something about my child and the message I got was really hard for me? I’m not sharing it to blame you or to tell you that there’s something wrong with you. I would love for you to care about what that was like for me and how I felt about that that day.” That kind of connection can actually bond us more strongly than if that thing had never happened. That’s the amazing thing about rifts in relationships is if people will really hear one another’s feelings about the rift, the scar tissue there is stronger than the original bond.

JEN:   So that is something that I wanted to talk about. If we’re hearing some of these things and realizing that we’re the one who said them with the best of intentions and it was 15 years ago and we’ve come so far. We would never say any of those kind of things now, but we’re like, I totally said that to my nephew or something like that. What are our chances of fixing that.

LISA:  They are so, so good, if we can avoid making it about ourselves when we hear about it. I’m at the age now when my children are telling me a lot of things that happened in their childhoods that I said and did, and I have no memory of it whatsoever. So I have a little experience with this. When our children tell us things that are deeply painful and we’re certain this could not have come out of our mouths. If we make it about what really happened, we will absolutely keep the rift between us as big as it is and likely make it bigger.

JEN:   Is that because the experience is real for both and so fighting about what’s real misses the point?

LISA:  It misses the point because the point is this is what it was like for me in that situation. And when our child comes to us, that’s really what they want us to understand. Even if they’re insisting on these words and this thing that happened, and we know it didn’t happen. We have our own little ways of knowing, that was before so-an-so was born, not after. That was when so-an-so was on his mission, he wasn’t there. If we start adding up those details and being certain, we will – as you just said beautifully – miss the point. The point is, “Hey, Mom, Dad, Grandma, this is what it was like for me.” I love the movie UP where the dog barks and the collar says, “This is what I’m trying to say.” We have to do that when our children are telling us about their experience with us. They may be  barking at us. And it’s us, we’re the wise, the adults in the room, and we have earned the right to say, “I get to hear your heart instead of your words. And your heart is asking me to care about what this was like for you and to let the words and the certainty pass like chaff.”

And so we hear, and we say, “I want to know what that was like for you. It will help me if you give me some feelings words.” Because it’s easiest for us when we hear feeling words. I felt betrayed. I felt overwhelmed. I felt like you weren’t there for us. I felt like we were being judged. I felt like we were being singled out, abandoned. As  parents, these are the words we try to hear whatever our children are saying.

JEN:   And I can feel my natural – you’re not saying them to me, but I can feel inside these ideas of “But I was trying my best. Do you any idea how tired I was?” I can feel those inside defenses rising a little bit to the top. And the idea of I’m going to let that one go and focus on the relationship. But I don’t know if our listeners can feel it. But that little bit of “Hey, wait a minute.”

LISA:  “Hey, wait a minute.” And it’s okay to feel defensive. It’s totally okay. It comes up like you just described, unbidden. And has is the real physiological impact on us. We can feel it in our chest and in our gut and maybe even in our tension headache coming up. So we can feel it, but instead of acting on it we act on, “It matters to me that you felt that way.” And parents all the time say to me, “So do I have to apologize for something I didn’t do?” The answer is “NO.” What your child is looking for is, “Does it matter that I felt that way?” And so what you’d want to communicate is that really matters to me. Something like you can say, “If I had known that that’s how the message was hitting you, I would’ve wanted to say something else. I really regret that this is what occurred. I would have like to do something different. If I could go back, I would do something different.” Almost any of those will work. And what I mean by work is, demonstrate that you care about them and not about, “Well, you’ve got to see me better than that because that’s not what really happened.”

JEN:   That’s not who I am.

LISA:  Which has never made a connection, ever.

JEN:   So, if we’re the one who did it, said it, I’ve wracked my brain for years trying to think of everything horrible thing I’ve probably said and honestly can’t remember because it was just flippant, ignorant. I’m sure that I said things. But, if we do remember, do we send an email, do we call someone. I say it to my kids all the time, I say, “I’m so sorry for all the things I said that I can’t even remember saying.”

LISA:  Good for you. That’s beautiful.

JEN:   And they laugh at me. But is there a good healthy way to like, “I don’t want to have a bunch of drama and you’re probably over it. But I have some regret and I want to bring that up with you.”

LISA:  Yeah. You said it beautifully, to own it. “I said something that I feel terrible about and I would like to own it and tell you about it and see if it caused you any feelings because that would matter to me.”

JEN:   Because that would matter to me. I like that. Because if you didn’t care, then we’re probably fine. I said something horrible and you blew it off.  

LISA:  Good for you, I raised you well.

JEN:   I’m so glad you’re stronger than me. So, in the world of factual statements. A lot of what I said, the examples of what people say are just factually incorrect. And so I find myself referring to that a lot when people say things. I’ll responds with, “Oh, that’s not factually correct. That’s not statistically accurate. That’s not factually correct.” Those phrases come out of my mouth a lot. “That’s not how that works at all.” So I want to go back and highlight on some of those that we hear over and over and over and what the actual facts are. Not the numbers and statistics, but the reality.

LISA:  I know what you’re saying. And one that people say a lot is ‘We’ve got to stop all those teens from getting those surgeries. They’re just having surgeries all over the place.”

JEN:   Exactly.

LISA:  And I will often say something like, “A lot of people believe that myth.”

JEN:   That’s another good one. I’m saying that. I feel like I’m getting redundant all the time, “That’s not true.”

LISA:  That’s ten times in the last ten minutes, I’ve said that.

JEN:   It does feel like that sometimes especially when you’re in the process of crazy legal, legislative type stuff. I want to talk about something that is specifically tender for a lot of parents in our responses that came up over and over and over. And that was when family members – particularly grandparents it seemed like – were blaming mom and dad for this catastrophe that has ruined their perfect grandchild. If you wouldn’t have taken her to all those pride events, if you hadn’t had those lesbian friends, if you hadn’t, it’s your fault. That seemed to be one of the most painful because it’s your own parents questioning your parenting. Can we talk about that one? Focus on that one for a little bit.

LISA:  Sure. If parents can manage it, going back to the, “I can see this is really hard for you”, and avoiding it being about you by changing the subject if you can in that way. “I can see this is really hard for you.” For some grandparents, that may be all they need to talk about how hard it’s been for them which is really what’s going on. The blame that they’re offering is because they are in pain. So, if you can get them to make that honest switch, that’s really helpful for parents. But some grandparents are absolutely immoveable on the blaming game. And so a parent has to say something like, “Well, I guess, if you’d had a chance to raise them, you would have your own issues with them that would be different from mine. I guess that could be true.” It’s okay to allow grandparents to be ignorant in their way. We don’t actually have to press the right words into their mouths. It’s okay to let them say things that are not even true. And say, “Well, I guess maybe you’ll have a chance to raise some kids again sometime and you can show us how it’s done. I’m glad you think I turned out so well.”

JEN:   I do think that every time. If my kid’s identity is my fault, then my bad parenting would have to be, by default?”

LISA:  Mostly, grandparents do blame about social media. “I told you, you should not let them on social media. I told you that that friend was bad for them.” Even if they’re not using those words, the idea is I have been advising you and you have not paid attention. Which is again about you feel let down, mom, you feel let down. You wish you had a chance to do this and do it better. I hope you get a chance to talk to God about this because he’ll probably want to help us both. I think there are some ways that you can emphasize what you have in common with your parents if that is a fruitful place to mollify and connect with parents. If it isn’t, then one of those, “That’s not going to be helpful.” Just straight up. And maybe what Jen said earlier, “I know you think you’re being helpful, but there’s way more to this story than you know.” To emphasize that you’re the one with the responsibility. You’re the one that knows the details. And you don’t have to be about sharing them.

JEN:   You kind of touched on this at the beginning. But why does it hurt so much more when it’s people you care about? Strangers say things and it hurts. Don’t get me wrong, it also hurts. But when it’s somebody you love, why does it hurt so much more? Why can’t you be more objective about it?

LISA:  Because we want so badly to be believed in. And especially by our parents. There is something about us that even if we’re in our 40s and 50s and 60s, when we go to our parent’s home – even if it’s not the childhood home we grew up in and especially if it is – there’s something in us that goes back and is 7 ,8, 9, and 10. There’s something in us that still feels a shade of vulnerability. And when a parent clucks at us or doesn’t believe that we’ve made a right decision, even if logically and intellectually we just go, “Oh, mom.” There’s something in us that hurts. “Wait haven’t I proven myself yet as an adult that you can love and believe in and worship and admire? Please?” There’s something in us that wants that. We want to be someone who’s enjoyed, just deeply enjoyed, and believe in. And anything that diminishes that, we feel it keenly.

JEN:   One of the things we talked about was unsolicited advice. What is it about medical advice whether it’s trans health care or you really shouldn’t use mental health medications for your kid. There’s something in that medical world. I don’t know if it got worse since 2020 or it just did in my imagination. But is there something that makes people feel like you can have an objective conversation about someone else’s medical care and your opinions are valid?

LISA:  Well, it may have gotten worse since COVID. But I think, from time immemorial, people have always patted pregnant people on their bellies and have given them advice about what to do and be. There’s something in us that says, “Hey, I have knowledge. And for your good, I’m going to share it with you.” And medical knowledge seems so objective that it feels like it’s more legitimate to just pass out like a recipe or something. “I’m giving you a recipe. Don’t take offense at it. It’s just a recipe. Your baby needs to wear more cloths in the winter. Everybody knows that. We’re offering you advice because you’re obviously just an ignorant little mother and you need to know that your baby needs three sweaters.”

There’s something about it that it feels objective. For a recipient of medical advice, it’s anything but objective. It feels like it’s on the hypodermic coming right into the skin. “Now I have to explain why I don’t want to take your stupid advice.” And of course, you don’t have to explain. The best thing you can do is just say thank you with a solemn enough face and turning around and changing the subject. Then it’s very clear that it’s not something you want to continue. “Oh, Thanks. How about those Steelers?” That’s probably all I have offer on that. I’m rolling my eyes.

JEN:   Appropriately because we do hear all these things, right? So that last one I want to touch on is the conversations that aren’t at us but are kind of touching us.  So, maybe they’re at the other table. The loud voices are happening, right?

“Did you hear about George. His nephew started dressing up like a woman.”

Or whatever conversation’s happening in the kitchen. They’re not really talking to us, but these are things that are like stray arrows hitting you in the heart and probably hitting your kid in the heart to, your 30-year-old kid who’s trying to attend this event. When do we step in? When do we just go home, like we’re not listening to this? Because essentially, we’re kind of eavesdropping, right? But they’re so loud.

LISA:  I  think that is a very legitimate question. And, in some ways, it’s not so much different from Sunday school.

JEN:  Yeah. That’s actually a good point.

LISA:  And there are almost always people in a Sunday school class who are hurt by comments like that even if they’re not our family members. And we will see, even in Sunday school class sometimes people get up and walk out because something was hurtful. And then it’s always helpful to follow and just be there with them. So the same principle applies here. If you know that there’s somebody in the room that is feeling that arrow personally. And it may be you. You have the option to say, “What does that feel like to me? Is this a situation that I want to speak up about in a way that honors the person who’s going to be hurt, that honors the person who’s home this is, that honors the values that are absolutely essential to me and to our family? It’s okay, perhaps, in some situations to say, “I don’t think our family wants to hear about George. Let’s hear about Lucy.” Start a story about Lucy, or whatever it is the family talks about. And maybe somebody will respond. If somebody takes offense at that and they say, “Well, if you can’t hear about George dressing in women’s clothes and how stupid that is, then there’s something wrong with you and probably your la, la, la, child.” Then it would probably be a good time to say, “It’s been a great dinner. Hope to see you all again. We’re off.” A situation like that may be a good time to leave.

Sometimes it’s helpful to have this conversation in advance with the family. If they know family members that are offensive, that they’re already sensitized to, all it may take is Uncle So-and-so making a very small comment. It might not even be loud. And it might be time to leave. Or it might be talking with a family member ahead of time and saying, “Hey, last time we got together it seemed like you weren’t aware of my child’s pronouns and name. Is that something that you’re willing to do this time?” And if they very loudly use a dead name, it might be time to just say, “Wow, well, hope to see you all again.” And have the family know that there’s a cue that we might get up and go. So, our word is popcorn. “So, family, let’s go have some popcorn.” And ice cream, and everybody leaves.

JEN:   I actually did have an entire other category that I had piled things in. But I decided I wasn’t going to bring any of them up because it was kind of the category of just horrible, like just plain old, cruelty. I tried so hard with every single one of them to be like, “What did they mean? What could they possibly have been trying to say?” And I decided, sometimes people are just mean.

LISA:  If you’re going to do these, let’s take them one at a time.

JEN:   I was going to say, I don’t actually want to say them.

LISA: Oh, okay. Yay.

JEN:  Because they were just a little pile of them and they were just cruel. But there is a difference, right, between people who have really good intentions and say things that hurt. And that’s bad and we need to address it and we all need to do better. But it seems almost like a whole other category where they’re hoping to hurt you.

LISA:  Yes.

JEN:   Where they’re hoping it stings a little bit.

LISA:  Yes. And that’s usually based on some other grudge that this is playing out. And so they’re using this as a way of poking a hole in something. And that’s usually where cruelty comes from is from someone’s own trauma, which is not an excuse. So, when it comes out, the only thing you really can do is say, “Wow. That was cruel.” And that’s kind of our signal to skedaddle.

JEN:   I do find myself saying that, actually, a lot and just labeling it every time. Wow, that was racist. Wow, that was really homophobic. Like you’ve been saying, it puts it back on them, “I know your intention was to hurt me and I choose not to play your game.”

LISA:  Not going to engage, but I’m going to label it.

JEN:   I’m going to acknowledge that this was not okay. I’m hopeful after discussing all of these, that most of our listeners will feel a little bit less alone. That they’ll feel a little bit of solidarity with each other across the distance. That they’re not this lone black sheep in this family and getting all the hate on them. We’re across the nation and the world and we’re all getting it occasionally in different spots and trying to learn how to cope. Especially if we come from places of privilege and we’re not used to being part of a marginalized identity at all, it’s really hard to even understand. Why would that matter if someone calls me a boy, I don’t care? It’s not part of my painful experience of being rejected and all of those things.

I’m just hoping that all of our listeners feel like going into this holiday season, I’m not alone. I’ve got this team of Mama Dragons and their loved ones and allies, and we’re all sitting in these family events together trying to respond together. Also, maybe we’re listening to ourselves a little bit more to make sure we’re not the ones saying it. If we are hurt, it’s not because we’re overly sensitive. It’s not because our skin is too thin. These things are mean and it hurts and it’s normal that it hurts. Before I let you go, do you have any parting words for people who are in this realm, entering this realm. The holidays are so tumultuous.

LISA:  And I think the key really is in what you said just a moment ago. To find a way accentuate not being alone. For some people, they will be the only one at their family gathering who understands the things that we’re talking about today. And there will be nobody who’s eyes they can catch when something awful is said and not feel alone. If there is someone at your gathering that you know is going to be there that you sympathetically understand these things, touch base ahead of time. Even if you live with them or if they’re a cousin. And say, “Hey, if grandpa says something, can I just look at you? Can we look at one another and raise our eyebrows and know that we’ve got each other’s backs even if we don’t want to get into an argument with grandpa.” That sense of not being alone is helpful.

However, if you are the only one, it’s also helpful to establish that with someone else that you can connect with electronically. I’m going to send you an exclamation point every time grandma uses the dead name or I’m going to send you a sad face every time my dad says something. So that there’s a way that you can express and communicate and not feel alone, even if you’re the only one at the holiday gathering.

JEN:   We have a code in our family that I won’t disclose along those lines where there’s a little acknowledgment and everyone does the same thing. And I have been so amazed at how helpful that has been for me in family spaces to be like, “Oh, you saw it too. You heard it too. I’m not crazy.”

LISA:  At that very moment. Yep. Families can establish a gesture, everybody just suddenly goes like this, or brushes their hair or something all at the same time and you, “Okay. We all heard that, we all caught that.

JEN:   I love that you brought that up because it is so nice. My heart is with every person. If you are listening and you’re going to the family function, and you want to text me your exclamation points, I will hold every one with you. And I mean that seriously. I can’t cook. I can’t invite you to all eat Thanksgiving with me, but I can sit in a chair and receive your exclamation points.

LISA:  That’s beautiful.

JEN:   Thank you so much, Lisa.

LISA: Thanks for having me.

JEN: For all of the service that you provide for parents and families in these spaces as we’re navigating and learning and getting better. You’re such a huge component to that improvement.

LISA:  Thank you, Jen. Thanks for having me. 

JEN:   Thanks so much for joining us here in the den. Did you know that Mama Dragons also offers an eLearning program called Parachute. Through this interactive learning platform, you can learn more about how to affirm, support, and celebrate the LGBTQ+ people in your life. Learn more at mamadragon.org/parachute. Or find the link in the episode show notes under links.

If you enjoyed this episode, please tell your friends and take a minute to leave us a positive rating and review wherever you listening. Good reviews make us more visible and help us reach more folks who could benefit from listening. And if you’d like to help Mama Dragons in our mission to support, educate, and empower the parents of LGBTQ children, please donate at mamadragons.org or click the donate link in the show notes. For more information on Mama Dragons and the podcast, you can follow us on Instagram or Facebook or visit our website at mamdragons.org.