Queerness, Theology, and Therapy

We've had quite a few therapists on this podcast, and they have all shared so much wisdom and compassionate advice for us and our families. This week In the Den, our host Sara sits down with therapist Ann Russo, who specializes in the intersection of religion and LGBTQ+ issues. They discuss a range of topics surrounding mental health, spirituality, and queerness. 

Special Guest: Ann Russo

Ann Russo is a mental health professional, author, and advocate specializing in sex positivity, queer issues, and religious trauma. She offers training programs, consulting services, and publications to support mental health providers and improve client care. Ann’s CE courses are in the final approval phase by ASWB/ACE for social workers, MFTs, and APCCs. They cover topics such as ethical non-monogamy, sexual health, sexual assault, sex work, lesbian couples, PTSD healing, and kink. She founded AMR Therapy & Support Services with a vision of inclusive mental health care for all. Certified in domestic violence and sexual assault counseling, she champions survivors of trauma, particularly from marginalized groups. Her therapy approach prioritizes personalized treatment plans, fostering a chill, safe space for clients to explore their thoughts and feelings. With expertise in mental health, queerness, and religion intersections, Ann offers culturally sensitive support. Her mission is to ensure everyone, regardless of background, has access to resources for thriving mental health in an inclusive and supportive environment.

Links from the Show: 

• Ann’s website: https://www.annrusso.org/
• Listen to Ann on other podcasts: https://www.annrusso.org/podcasts/ 
• Join Mama Dragons today: www.mamadragons.org 
• Find Mama Dragons on FB:  https://www.facebook.com/mamadragons 
• Mama Dragons on IG: https://www.instagram.com/themamadragons/ 

In the Den is made possible by generous donors like you. Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today at www.mamadragons.org. 

Connect with Mama Dragons:
Website
Instagram
Facebook

Donate to this podcast

Transcript

Episode 97 – Queerness, Theology, and Therapy

SARA: Hi, everyone. Welcome to In The Den with Mama Dragons, a podcast and community to support, educate and empower parents on the journey of raising happy and healthy LGBTQ+ humans. I am your new host, Sara LaWall. I am a Mama Dragon myself and an advocate for our queer community and I’m so honored and excited to join this amazing podcast team and to learn and grow with all of you. Thanks for joining us. We’re so glad you’re here.

We've had a lot of therapists on this show and they’ve all shared so much wisdom and compassionate advice for us and our families. But today’s guest is not only an incredible therapist herself, but one who specializes in queer issues, among other things. And she also has a unique personal story and journey that led her to this work. A story that includes growing up in a queer household in the 80’s, coming out as queer herself, exploring conservative religion, even attending a conversion camp, then getting a Masters in theology, and a masters in social work and creating a therapy practice that now includes a team of 15 therapists who have served over 1800 clients with a focus on the LGBTQ+ community, on people of color, and individuals in non-traditional relationships. Her life and work touch nearly every aspect of the experiences in our Mama Dragons community. She could probably join us for a dozen episodes.  Our guest today is Ann Russo! Ann, welcome to In the Den! We're so glad  to have you with us.

ANN: Hi, Sara. I am so happy to be here with you today. Thank you so much.

SARA: You know, in addition to your therapy practice which you have intentionally centered around providing inclusive mental health care for those who often face barriers to finding that kind of help and care, but you’ve also created this groundbreaking continuing education program that helps fill in the gaps in mental health training around queer identity and community support, and sex positivity and issues like that which I think is of great interest to our Mama Dragons community. I know we have a lot of therapists out there.  And on top of that, Ann continues to be an advocate for change. You’re working with PFLAG and the Human Rights Campaign and about to publish a book – I read – a book called Empowerment on Her Own Terms: Reclaiming Female Sexuality. Ann, you are one busy human. But I’m really excited because there’s so much that we can talk about today. And there’s so many angles that I could use to approach this interview. So I’m excited for all of us in the Mama Dragons community to get to know you better and take advantage of your knowledge in helping us parent our own children. So let’s dive in.

ANN: Awesome. Let’s do it.

SARA: I want to start with your childhood and your growing up in a queer household in the 80’s and early 90’s. Tell us that story. What was life like for you as a young person?

ANN: In my home, life felt very normal and loving. So I grew up with my mom, my dad, and my dad’s partner all in one household.

SARA: From the time you were born, I mean, from the time you were little?

ANN: From the time I was five.

SARA: Wow.

ANN: Yeah. So my dad came out and my mom was very understanding. And she actually leaned on her faith. She was practicing Catholic – that thought, she said this to me once in an interview and I was actually surprised because I was like, “All right. Mom.” And back in 1983. She said, “Well, God made him this way. So I’m going to support him.”

SARA: That is an incredible perspective in 1983. I don’t think we heard a lot of that. And boy does that get challenged today in really loud and terrible terms. So kudos to your mom.

ANN:I know. My mom’s awesome. And she wanted him to figure himself out. And what was ultimately decided was that we would all live together. And we moved to another space. We were in a small town at the time. and we moved to a bigger city on the west coast. And we all lived together. The challenge, though, Sara – and believe me there was plenty of challenge – outside challenge. We had to live a life of secrecy. The one thing that we knew, me and my younger sister, was you never say Dad is gay. You never talk about his partner as his partner. Mom and Dad are together. This is a roommate in the house. So even as our friends would come over, we’d go to our friends' homes, it was Mom and Dad and a roommate that lives here.

SARA: What was that like for you as a younger person thinking about going through elementary school and junior high school and navigating friends? What was it like to try to have to carry that secret around with you and did it influence you in any way as you got older and grew up and were finding your own self and your own identity?

ANN: Yes. Absolutely. So I would say that the challenge, as a kid, you know the community outside of this house may not like us. And we were in a very big LDS community, actually, in Arizona. So most of the kids I went to school with were LDS. A lot of my friends were LDS. And I don’t even know if it even entered their mind that it could be a possibility because it was so unique, especially during that time. So I just kind of lived my life. I didn’t really think too much about the fact that there was this secret. But I think that as I got a little bit older – say sixth grade, seventh grade, eighth grade – it started to make me sick. But I didn’t know that that’s what was happening. Because, you know, you’re a kid and we didn’t have the language then that we have today to say, “Gee. It sounds like you’re having panic attacks or an extreme amount of anxiety. What’s going on?” Right? But there was no language for that. So I would just kind of be internal to myself and very gregarious at school. But at home I would be just cloistered. Like, I remember that my punishment growing up was to have to spend time with the family rather than go be sent to my room because I was just very internal with everything, everything that I was feeling and not really understanding what I was feeling. Again, like I said, the household was fine. It was fear of what outside was going to do because I remember my sister had someone who wasn’t allowed to be friends with her. They said, “Don’t be friends with her. Her dad is a “Slur word”.” My sister’s in first grade. You know what I mean. And so those moments were painful. We’re going to go to a concert – and these stick with me. We’re talking 30 something years ago – we were going to go to a concert, but we left because my dad and his partner were afraid they were going to be gay bashed by some things some people were saying in the line behind us. So we had to leave.

SARA: That’s a lot of fear for a young person to carry around for a long time. When did it shift in that you finally found a way or were allowed to speak about it more openly?

ANN: So, the first time I ever spoke about it openly, I was in eighth grade. And I told an eighth grade teacher that my dad was gay, shaking, crying, literally paralyzed and feeling like I just did the most horrendous sin imaginable saying this out loud. So it was really ingrained in me that we don’t say this, you know. And then I felt guilty for telling her in the sense of, now I’ve put some kind of burden on her to hear my feelings. Like that’s where that was happening. It was very contentious and confusing within myself.

SARA: And how did she respond?

ANN: She actually responded well. She listened to me. She was supportive of me. I still, actually, keep in contact with her believe it or not. She was a lifeline to me during that challenging time.

SARA: Wow.

ANN: Yeah.

SARA: That’s incredible too, that you maybe intuitively knew which teacher to pick, which school person to confide in.

ANN: Yeah. I mean, a really good lady. A really good lady.

SARA: That’s so wonderful. I wish for that for all of our kids. Usually there is one and usually our kids can figure it out. And even if you did have that intuitive knowing, hearing you describe the experience of unburdening yourself and all of that fear and anxiety coming out of you probably was very cathartic, but also very scary at the same time.

ANN: Yes. Yes. And when it comes to my own sexuality, I was aware that I was attracted to women when I was young. I remember being in kindergarten and recognizing that attraction. But you know, you’re a kid. You’re not really thinking about those things too much. You’re going through life. In Junior high, really started to put it together and I tried to push it away because I did not want to have that life experience that my dad had.

SARA: Of having to be so secretive and that’s really not being able to be yourself?

ANN: Yeah. Yeah. And being afraid to be yourself or that people are going to judge you or they’re going to hate you because you exist and you’re born the way that you’re born. It’s devastating. It’s absolutely devastating.

SARA: So talk a little bit about that unfolding for you. You are coming to terms with it early, maybe in middle school, kind of  pushing it down, resisting it. But then at some point, you get to a place where either you can’t do that anymore or you’re ready to come out. Talk about that coming out experience and how you got there.

ANN: Sure. So we moved when I was in high school to California. And that actually made a bit of a difference. Because when I started high school in the mid-90’s, I started to meet some people that were bisexual. This was a big thing back in the mid-90’s where I lived. Everyone was bisexual. And I was stunned that there were people my age saying, “Oh yeah. I’m dating a girl.” I was shocked, just shocked. And then I was told I was allowed to say, “Dad and his partner. My dad’s gay.” I was allowed to say this now, right? And I was like, it had been ingrained in me for so long I was [blubbering sounds] trying to say it. But my friends, no one batted an eye. No one cared. So it became a nonissue to just exist. And for myself, it took me maybe eight months before I actually said to a friend that, “Hey, I think I might be bisexual too.” And I was even scared to say it then, even though we’d been friends since the beginning of the school year. She was in a relationship with a girl. It’s just so internal, the shame and fear and the idea of rejection. So even being raised in a queer household did not make it easier for me. It was maybe easier in a different way because I knew that my immediate family wouldn’t reject me. But societal rejection, still very much a thing.

SARA: And your family was still really living inside that model of societal rejection themselves.

ANN: Yes. Yes.

SARA: Did you feel the relief when you finally were able to say it out loud?

ANN: You know, the first time I ever kissed a girl is when I found relief. I knew that was the truth of who I was. I was a teenager and I knew, “Yep. That’s it. It’s who I am.” You just know who you are. And with that relief and knowing the stigma and the pain and what other people were going through, I actually started the gay/straight alliance at my high school.

SARA: That’s great.

ANN: Yeah. So we really pushed and we fought the school board to have our group, because they didn’t want us to have it at first. It was difficult. But we were able to march in the pride parade. It was awesome. And there was just so much support from the LGBTQ community that pushed through the noise of those that were not supportive.

SARA: It sounds like you found both a space of belonging that then allowed you to find your voice and to be loud and to start advocating and testing those waters and learning what that world is like.

ANN: Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Because I’d been around gay men growing up, but this was a different experience because it was me being out.

SARA: Yeah. When you were talking about sharing with this teacher in eighth grade, or school person, I heard you talk about how the fear coming from knowing that this was a sin. And thinking about your own career path and pursuing a Masters of Theology and your own real deep curiosity about religion, how did that all unfold? Where did that interest in religion come from? And talk a little bit about that trajectory in your life.

ANN: So I always found religion to be interesting. But I didn’t really follow much. I was baptized catholic when my dad came out and we moved away from religion. We went to a Unitarian church a few times when I was young.

SARA: Great.

ANN: But I really didn’t know much about religion. And then I had friends who were involved in the church. I had friends whose parents were pastors, just a lot of different things going on. And I just was so curious about it. So I would go to church here or there. But the big church moment for me was actually right after high school. And there was a group of more conservative church members – I would say. I was a small conservative church, very evangelical. So they were really talking to people out in the community – And one of the church members really just sparked some interest in me just as a person, as a spirit. There was something about her that was very attractive. And I was like, “I’m going to go see what this is.”

SARA: That’s very brave.

ANN: Yeah. But you know, the thing about it was, they didn’t present themselves like, “We hate gay people.” And I think that that’s the kind of important piece here. First and foremost, I don’t think many of these people had a lot of experience around LGBTQ people. So they had this idea of what it meant versus what it actually means. And then, on top of it, this was in the era – and I know there’s some of this that still persists – the idea that “hate the sin, not the sinner.” This was very much of the viewpoint of this group.

SARA: It’s almost like – I grew up in that same era – and very much felt like if we love them enough, if we love them hard and love them and give them Jesus, we will love them out of this.

ANN: Yes. Yes. Yes. So there was definitely that vibe for sure. So I started going to this church and I thought the people were actually very nice. I really liked them a lot. I made close friends. I still talk to some of them. And it was a really eye-opening experience for me. And I really felt like I was learning the bible. I was learning more conservative Christianity because everything that I had really learned before was these are the people that hate you and they’re crazy. They want to hurt you, harm you, right? So that was the message that I received that they were just bad people.

SARA: But it’s so interesting to me, Ann, that for many people in your similar experience that kind of messaging is what makes us draw away and push away and push back and go a completely different direction. And yet, you were curious enough to want to go further inside and understand and experience it.

ANN: Yeah. I did, because I wanted to know why do they feel this way? Do they feel this way? Where is this coming from? What does it mean?

SARA: And what did you learn? What came up for you as you were really getting deeper and deeper and deeper into that kind of Christianity?

ANN: The most important thing that I learned is there’s an extremely disassociated view of what it means to be a gay person in the Christian community –  or an LGBTQ person in the conservative Christian community. There’s a fear that being LGBTQ is substance abuse problems, high suicide problems, promiscuity, STIs just inherently because you’re part of that community. And you can’t possibly have a relationship with God or with Jesus, so therefore, you’re going to go to Hell. So I, to save you from yourself and make sure you get to heaven. And the way to do that is to stop you from doing this sin so now you live a more pure life and you won’t be promiscuous, you won’t have a substance abuse issue. So it was a very interesting perception because I want to say, “No. No. It’s the rejection that’s causing those issues. It’s not the orientation.” Those stats are true. They’re true stats. High substance abuse, high mental health issues, high suicide rates, those are the consequences of the rejection, right? So that was the big missing part, I think, for them. And as I became closer friends with a few folks, they were just surprised. “But wait, you are a gay person and you have a relationship with God? Huh?” It just blew their mind out of the water. And so I think it was a process of me understanding that it wasn’t about hate for them, that it was actually about love. It was just a version of love that didn’t feel very loving if you’re on the receiving end of it.

SARA: Yeah. Wow. So I heard that you, of your own volition, attended a conversion camp, like big conference style.

ANN: Yes. I went to a conference.

SARA: That is very brave.

ANN: You know, and I forgot this, actually. My sister brought this up to me recently. She was like, “You know, during that time you really were investigating, is it sinful to be gay.” I forgot that I did that. It was my sister that reminded me that I was really exploring. Myself, I never said I was anything but me. But I had to learn. I had to discover.

SARA: So you were out in conservative Christian spaces?

ANN: Oh, yeah. I had a girlfriend at the time. She even came to hear me speak at an evangelical conference. So I did not pretend to be something that I wasn’t. But I was still in exploration space, “like is this actually okay? Is it not okay? What does this mean? What’s the bible say? Is the bible important?” I mean, there’s a lot going on in my mind and trying to seek answers and understanding. So going to a conference like this was about seeking, more seeking, than it was anything else.

SARA: What were the big messages that you heard in this conference? Was your experience something that you then had to wrestle with because you were hearing – were you hearing messages that were antithetical to your own understanding of religion and queerness?

ANN: Yes. I was hearing those messages. But it didn’t impact me in the sense of questioning myself or my identity. But it did provide me a lot of clarity. If someone is born in faith – this was what, this is just what I saw. I don’t know what the stats are on this – if someone is born within a faith that’s very conservative and they come out and they experience rejection, they may choose a path that is going to be harmful for them, like substance abuse, things that are also going to equate it with their own sexuality and have internalized homophobia. And then they’re going to think it is a sin to be gay and then they’re going to come back and try to be straight –  which is not really possible – but they’re going to try to do that. So that’s the message of what I saw over and over again. Is, “Hey, I was in the family and we were very religious and then I came out and I was bar hopping and I was sleeping with everybody and I go, Oh my gosh it is sinful to be gay. So I came back to Jesus.” It was like they couldn’t reconcile within themselves that one doesn’t equate to the other. You could still love Jesus. You could still have faith and be a gay person. So that’s really what I learned at the conference was that internal struggle.

SARA: I imagine this experience comes in really handy in your therapy practice. You’ve had a first-hand experience and it sounds to me like you might be able to speak the language of conservative religion in a way that maybe some of us can’t who haven’t had that experience and how helpful that must be to some of your clients.

ANN: It is a really fundamental piece, I think, because of going to school for theology and religion as well. I think it’s, like you said, there is a certain language and certain way of understanding things that is hard to unless you’re exposed to that culture in some way. Do you know what I mean? So I think it is definitely helpful because as soon as someone says, “purity culture” or they say this, I’m like, “Okay. I already know. I was in an evangelical church. Got it.” So I already know what you heard, what was beaten over your head, but of course I need them to tell their story. But I’m not starting from scratch.

SARA: Right. And you have some language and tools to help meet them inside that world.

ANN: Yes.Yes.Yes.

SARA:  I think that’s really powerful. I’m really curious then, you’ve had these religious experiences, you were exploring, and so how did you find yourself on the path of wanting to get a Masters in Theology?

ANN: It was searching for God. Really, it came down to an existential crisis in some ways, but just trying to understand, “What is, who is God? What does all this mean? I just wanted an answer for a higher purpose.” The thing that I found was,  “I have no idea and I’m completely okay with that.” Because I think I was trying to find this very clear, succinct answer to what it means to be in a relationship with God, what it means to be in a relationship with the world, with the after-world, and what all of that means. And I don’t think we get that answer.

SARA: You know, I’m a minister. I went to theology school. And I think really, it invited more questions than gave me more answers. But it also provided that beautiful space of where seeking and those questions were welcome and lots of opportunity to ask new questions and find new paths. And it’s just to come to that understanding that the seeking is part of being human. And finding that spiritual path is always unfolding.

ANN: Exactly. It’s always unfolding, and to be okay with that. I think that was maybe the hardest part. And one day, I said to myself, “Alright. If there is a God and this God created me. This God created me to be this inquisitive. This God created me to assess and search and not know and not be clear. And I’m just going to trust in that.”

SARA: Yes.

ANN: And that brought me an immense amount of peace around the idea of spirituality and religion. So I feel very clear, very safe, and very much at peace that this is all about love and there’s no one that’s left out of the love box. I really 100% believe that.

SARA: Yes. I love that so much. I always appreciate the theological exploration of the creation, God’s creation. If God created us in God’s own image and we are curious humans and seekers and explorers. Then that must have been important to God. That’s a really beautiful theological frame.  I know that also in your theological path and unfolding, you did a lot of exploration and have done a lot of talks and study around queer theology. And we have done an early episode just on the topic alone. But I’m curious if you’ll share with us what queer theology means for you and how you use it in your practice?

ANN: So I use it in my practice when it’s appropriate for the client because I’m very much all about what the client’s needing and supporting. But if I’m using queer theology – or the idea of queer theology for me is the idea of Jesus as liberator, Jesus as on the margins, Jesus as a rebel, as a fighter for social justice. That’s what I see as Jesus. So I come from a place of something called, “High Christology” And that’s understanding that Christ is more of a spiritual being rather than actually looking at Jesus the man. So my idea is just queer theology is that Christ is for everybody. And Christ wants us. And Christ will fight with us. I did a presentation at Boston College about a decade ago about Christ as the Grand Marshall of Queer America. Some were not overly excited about it. Some folks were cool with it. But the entire message was about love and acceptance and really looking at who Christ is and where we see that message show up in the Bible as a more macro, than looking at these little micro-sentences. But what are we seeing is the macro here when we’re looking at the Bible, when we’re looking at theology, when we’re looking at how we relate to each other and how we’re connected to each other.

SARA: Yeah. That’s beautiful. What are the messages? What are the themes? That’s lovely and very much connects and dovetails with my own personal theology. And I could talk to you about this for the entire rest of the episode. But for the sake of our listeners, I have more questions.

ANN: Please. Please.

SARA: But this is a good segue here because I know in our Mama Dragons community and in the queer community at large, so many people have been wounded by religion, by churches, by the theology of those churches, by their friends and community members in the church, by family members whose religious beliefs cause harm and damage in relationships. And I’d love to hear your thoughts and understanding and your approach to religious and spiritual trauma.

ANN: So the first thing I want to say is to everybody wherever you’re coming from on this and trying to figure this out, I know that it’s hard. And I’m speaking to the parents who are questioning, how do I accept my kid? Do I accept my kid? What’s going to happen to my kid? I feel that too because I’ve worked with parents who are trying to navigate their faith system with their child’s sexual orientation or gender identity and what that means. It’s in the grief around the vision and an idea of what you had.

SARA: I hear a lot of our community folks just talk about when you are so enmeshed in a religious community and in a very particular theology to find yourself now in the space where all of that is questioned and your relationship with your child is questioned, and where sometimes those religious communities might suggest that actually the religion and the beliefs come before your child. And as a parent, you’re like, “Wait a minute. Wait a minute. That does not click at all with what I am feeling inside my very soul.” So thank you for mentioning that.

ANN: When it comes to religious trauma, it can show up in so many different ways, obviously. But if we’re speaking specifically about sexual orientation and gender, I think that what becomes very difficult is this idea of having to choose. And we’re talking about some very serious things here. We’re talking about your entire belief system about why you’re here and what happens to you after you’re here, right? That’s not a small thing. I think it’s the largest thing if we really think about it. And then we have something that is intrinsic to your very being and your biology. And then you’re being told, if you follow who you are intrinsically – the thing you can’t change – now you don’t get this other piece. I think that’s a false choice. So I think that the main goal for me as a provider is, where’s their reconciliation here? How can we find reconciliation? And I speak to the parents, the families, the pastors. I speak to everybody. Giving yourself or someone else a false choice on their God, or their identity, is devastating. And so many LGBTQ people have felt like they could no longer participate in their faith or that their faith family rejects them. And then there’s shame and internalized homophobia. And then there becomes something that was coined – not by myself but about 15 years ago – the word “Christophobia” where you literally become afraid of Christians or people that identify in a faith group. You become hypervigilant. And I know that that is something that is even true for me. Even doing all this work, there are still things. If someone tells me they're Christian, my automatic thought is, “Okay. They hate me.” or “Let me scan the room. Is there someone, oh, she’s wearing a cross. That must mean she’s going to hate me.” So it’s like whether you mean for that to happen to you or not, it does because you’re traumatized.

SARA: And because the current state of things right now is only reinforcing those messages. So it isn’t going away.

ANN: No.

SARA: We continue to hear those messages even if we’re outside of that faith and we Unitarian Universalists, we’re pretty progressive, theologically progressive, not just on social issues. And I still watch how people who have experienced religious trauma seize up around religious language and symbols and rituals, different words. And I use a lot of different words, but I really watch that struggle in them. And it’s so complicated and so hard and it almost never goes away.

ANN: Yeah. It’s truly PTSD. It takes work to move through that because you’re having somatic responses like you just said. You see the person’s body tense up. It may not even be conscious anymore. It lives in them, that trauma and that pain that has happened.

SARA: And I want to name the trauma and the pain. You talked about the false choice and a forced choice. And both in the experience of the queer person but a lot of our parents are experiencing that forced choice between choosing faith in God over their child, which is an impossible choice. So what do we do? How does Ann the therapist, what advice do you have for us about how we help ourselves and our kids work through that trauma?

ANN: When it comes to parents specifically, having other people that are experiencing this as well is key. We need support. We need support around us. Someone who truly understands what we’re going through because you are speaking a nuanced language and you’re having a very specific experience. And I know that for some parents that are trying to navigate this, they may feel guilt. They may feel shame around the fact that maybe they’re embarrassed. Maybe they're scared. Maybe they don’t want to talk about it. And that’s why I think having people that are going through it in the same way is important because it’s nothing to feel shame and guilt around. You’re trying to navigate some very difficult things. And I know, in speaking to the kids, I know that we want our parents to just jump on board sometimes because we’ve already been through this. And it’s like, “Alright. Get it together, Mom.” And it’s hard for younger people to really fully understand that process of the acceptance of life is now different. And I’m not talking about bashing our hating on your kid. But just having to take in that new information and a new life because it is a new life. There’s so much to it. And so parents, be gentle on yourselves. Find community and if you can find a therapist that can help you navigate this that’s going to understand the nuances because I think that that’s key. I’ve heard some horror stories of going to extremes.

SARA: Yeah. Those horror stories exist. Thank you for that. I have found that that is exactly how this Mama Dragons community started was moms seaking community with other moms. And now we’re parents and we’re really wide. But it started with that kernel. But that support community. But it is powerful to be able to go to a group where you know they are sharing your experiences. And now the Mama Dragons communities have all these little subgroups so you can have parents of trans kids, or queer parents parenting queer kids. I mean, it’s amazing. And I am grateful for that space every day that anyone, including myself, can go there and ask and seek support. And it’s made a huge difference for me as a parent of a trans kiddo and even as a parent who lives in a very liberal family and liberal religious space. I needed support too. I needed to find my people. It’s wonderful. And I want to go back, though, to how you were talking about hearing some horror stories of finding the right therapist, and finding an affirming therapist, an inclusive therapist. So what would you say to those families? How do we know? What do we look for when we’re looking for a therapist for ourselves or for our kids? What questions do we ask so that we can feel like we’re getting someone who can meet them exactly where they’re at, someone like you?

ANN: So one of the things that we want to make sure of when you’re talking to a therapist is I would want to assess their biases. You have every right, okay, as a parent, to ask a million questions before you sign up with a therapist. And your child does too. You have the right to know where this person went to school, what they specialize in, do they have any experience with this, have they worked with queer, how about religious communities. You have the right to do that. I think sometimes we get scared to ask the therapist. And I get that. We’re kind of trained to be like, “You’re a therapist so you should now and I’m just going to kind of just sit here in the background and do what you say.” NO! Absolutely not. This is a joint endeavor and if you have a therapist who’s not willing to do that with you, then this is not the right therapist for you because I’ve seen – like I said – harm, both sides. I have seen people be harmed because a parent is coming and saying, “My child is trans and I’m really struggling with that.” And I’ve heard therapists say, “Well, you need to get over it. There’s something wrong with you.” And I’m like, “That is horrible.” There’s nothing wrong with you. This takes time to process. So this poor parent was shamed so bad by this therapist, that it was three years later that they came to see me because they were so afraid to go back to therapy to be shamed rather than being able to talk about their feelings openly and honestly, right? And so I think there’s a tricky balance there because you want someone who can affirm wherever people are showing up, right? So I would say questions, questions, questions. And see if there’s anything, if they have a social media presence or a LinkedIn, see what they’re talking about. See what they’re posting about. And even us therapists, like myself, that try to say, “I’m super inclusive. Everyone come on over.” I’ve had clients say, “I was scared to tell you this because I didn’t know how you felt about X, Y, Z.” So therapists sometimes, they think they’re doing a good job of showing you something. But they might not be. So it’s good to just have a consultation and be able to be prepared with questions that are going to be important for you.

SARA: Thank you for that. That’s really helpful. And I know from my own journey through therapy, the therapists who have upfront said to me, “And you know, if this isn’t a good fit for you, if it just doesn't feel right, just tell me.”  And therapist who said, “I want you to find a great therapist and I’ll help you find one if it’s not me.” That alone made me feel like I’d hit the jackpot of therapists.

ANN: Exactly. Right? And I think depending on where the needs are, right? Because if the need is your child is needing to work on themselves and understanding who they are and talking through that may be a different therapist, right? I would never suggest that all family members go to the same therapist for individual sessions. You need to have someone who’s going to be understanding to where you’re at and have the experience to where you’re at. And then, if it would be beneficial to have a family therapist who is able to really be objective and hold space for all parties.

SARA: My understanding is that most therapists will refuse to see multiple members of a family individual. Like that is an ethical boundary there.

ANN: Some will not follow that boundary. So I just want to just put it out there because everyone needs the ability to feel safe and heard and be able to share without fear, even if it’s somewhat unconscious, this information could go somewhere else.

SARA: That’s really helpful. So what would you say to folks about how do we know when it's time to recruit the support of a therapist?

ANN: Just consider the fact that when we’re talking about therapist, therapy, we’re not always talking about mental health illness, mental health disorder, mental health diagnosis or that there’s something wrong with you, okay. The goal – especially as mental health has grown – the goal really is to give someone a spot where they can talk about something very authentically and have someone assist them in their own thinking and feelings around something. I get going to the faith community, your pastor, your priest, your friends from church. The challenge there is you’re not going to get the objectivity. And you may not be able to fully be open because there’s something within you that’s like “I can tell them up to this point but then I don’t want to go any further.” We’re bound by law not to share what you tell us, right? So it may even be helpful to see someone who can help you with this even if it’s, “I need some coping skills. I need some good books. I want this to be a short-term thing. I don’t want to dive into anything outside of this particular, this is my particular goal, right? So I would view it more as an objective support system where you can really be yourself and depending on your own personality, there’s therapists that will just be there to listen. There are therapists that will ask you the difficult questions. So that’s another thing to ask also when you go talk to therapists, about their style.

SARA:  And I’m thinking also, you talked a little bit about, when we were talking about religious trauma, about that being a somatic experience, an embodied physical experience. And I know there’s a lot of therapists out there who use embodied, somatic practices as a way to help people through that trauma.

ANN: Yes. Yes. Absolutely. So it’s so much more than sitting or lying down on a couch and talking about your childhood. There’s so many avenues to it. So I would say that looking at even a solution-focused therapist. You don’t have to dig into things you don’t want to dig into. And it’s not about you going in there because you have a mental health illness. I think that’s also very important. This is a supportive space to process through this information.

SARA: That’s really helpful and lots of different tools, the patients, the clients, can seek too. I want strategies. I want books. I just want to lay on the couch and talk about my kid and cry for an hour because I can’t do that anywhere else.

ANN: Exactly. Exactly. That space is designed for you.

SARA: That’s lovely.

ANN:And for the kids, I think you have to present it in the same way as having someone to talk to. Sorry parents, but someone to talk to that they’re not going to come back and talk to you about what you’re talking about unless there’s harm, obviously. But for your child to know that they can talk about whatever they need to talk about and it’s a safe space and they're not going to be judged again. They're not going to tell their friends, their teachers. They may not be ready to share certain things with you. And a good therapist will also help teach and help your child facilitate important conversations too.

SARA:  That’s great. Thank you. I think that’s really helpful and always helpful to hear and be reminded of those perspectives and tools that are out there for us. And I think sometimes in the early days of parenting a newly coming out kids, it can feel overwhelming and you can forget about all that. And so it’s great to be able to hear it again. We’re talking and I’m thinking along the lines of therapy, I’m thinking about the struggles that a lot of families have with their own secret keeping. I’m going way back to the secret keeping in your family and thinking that can be a common experience in a lot of ways whether it's just a young person not ready to come out, not ready to come out at school or to other family members or to the religious community. And some parents aren’t quite sure how to handle when and how to share this information about their child. So what advice do you have for us in that struggle?

ANN: I always lean on the, “Don’t out somebody.” That’s their journey. And then that’s why I lean back to the therapist because if your child says, “Hey, I think I’m trans” or “I’m gay.” Whatever it might be, and your inclination is, I’m going to go talk to my pastor. That may be not the right move if your child is not ready to come out to anybody else. But you know if you go to a therapist, it’s safe there and your child is still safe from being outed. Because, even if you say to the pastor, “I told my child I wasn’t going to say anything.” But you know you said something and then you go to church with your child, that’s going to create an internal feeling of awkwardness.

SARA: Thank you. This has been so beautiful and fruitful and powerful. Thank you so much and for all the work you do out there. But I like to end with our guests – I like to ask our guests final questions. And so I’m curious to know who is inspiring you these days? Who should we know about that’s doing cool stuff in the world?

ANN: There are inspiring people doing cool stuff around us all the time, right? We just have to be open to seeing it. So I look at my mom. And my mom is the kind of person that is just very kind and loving and never say something ill about somebody, and always there to support and have empathy. And I like to think that I got some of that from her.

SARA: That’s beautiful.

ANN: So she’s an inspiring person to me.

SARA: That’s great. I love it. Your mom, that’s a beautiful answer. And speaking of moms, this is a great segue, the Mama Dragons name really came out of this understanding of fierce protection, fierceness, fierce parents. So I am curious, Ann, what are you fierce about?

ANN: I am fierce about people being respected and loved just as they are.

SARA: That’s a beautiful thing to be fierce about. And here we are in these really challenging times and particularly our queer community and our queer kids are facing just a lot of hate, legislation, just it really feels very fraught right now. And so I want to end, I want this last question to be, what is bringing you joy right now in these difficult times?

ANN:The fact that, even though that sadly is happening, the world is still better. I think back to the 80’s. I think back to the 90’, and terrible, terrible. But there’s a way for everyone to find community on some level which did not exist before. So I find hope, joy, and peace that even though our society has a way of doing this back and forth, back and forth. I’d like to believe that we’re always moving towards a place of love and acceptance and authenticity.

SARA: Yes. That is a wonderful thing to feel joyful about and a great way to end this conversation, Ann. Thanks so much for being with us today. This was wonderful.

ANN: It was. Thank you so much.

SARA: Thank you so much for joining us In The Den. Did you know that Mama Dragons also offers an eLearning program called Parachute? This is an interactive learning platform, where you can learn more about how to affirm, support, and celebrate the LGBTQ+ people in your life. Learn more at mamadragon.org/parachute. Or find the link in the episode show notes under links.

If you enjoyed this episode, we hope you’ll take a moment to tell your friends, and leave us a positive rating and review wherever it is you listen. Good reviews make us more visible and help us reach more folks who could benefit from being part of this community. And if you’d like to help Mama Dragons in our mission to support, educate, and empower the parents of LGBTQ+ children, please donate at mamadragons.org or click the donate link in the show notes. For more information on Mama Dragons and the podcast, you can follow us on Instagram or Facebook or visit our website at mamadragons.org.