Navigating Family Gatherings During the Holidays

With the holiday season in full swing, many of us are finding ourselves navigating sometimes tricky and challenging family gatherings, especially with our queer kids. This time of year often comes with particular, sometimes unspoken, expectations about our participation in family events. Supporting our queer kids also occasionally means having to respond to inappropriate questions, uncomfortable interactions, and hurtful situations. This week In the Den, Sara sits down with therapists Laura Skaggs and Lisa Hansen to talk through possible coping strategies and boundaries to help get us through the holidays while protecting and prioritizing the wellbeing of our queer children.

Special Guest: Laura Skaggs

Laura Skaggs is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist who specializes in treating spiritual trauma at the intersection of LGBTQ+ experiences and religion. Laura earned her master’s degree in marriage and family therapy at San Diego State University with an emphasis in LGBTQ+ mental health within conservative religious social contexts. She went on to serve for two years on the board of directors of Affirmation: LGBT+ Mormons, Families, and Friends with a focus on responding to spiritual trauma and suicide prevention. Laura is also the co-creator of CWEERS Empowerment groups: a practice designed to help LGBTQ+ individuals and their supporters confront social discrimination and internalized stigma. Laura is the mother of two daughters and presently sees clients full time in Provo, UT, as part of Flourish Therapy.

Special Guest: Lisa Hansen

Lisa Tensmeyer Hansen (PhD, LMFT, Clinical Director) is the clinical director and founder of Flourish Therapy, Inc., (Flourish), a behavioral health clinic located in Provo, Utah, which she founded in February 2017 to meet the needs of LGBTQ+ and SSA individuals and their families. Lisa received a B.S. from Brigham Young University in 1990 as university valedictorian (Summa Cum Laude with Honors thesis), an M.S. in 2012 and Ph.D. in 2017, both at BYU, focusing on improving the mental health of LGBTQ+ people in conservative families and communities. She lives with her husband in Payson, Utah, where together they made a home for 7 children (and a few extras) and now have 18 grandchildren.

Links from the Show:

• Flourish’s website: https://www.flourishtherapy.org/ 
• Join Mama Dragons today: www.mamadragons.org 

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Transcript

SARA: Hi, everyone. Welcome to In The Den with Mama Dragons, a podcast and community to support, educate and empower parents on the journey of raising happy and health LGBTQ+ humans. I am your new host, Sara LaWall. I am a Mama Dragon myself and an advocate for our queer community and I’m so honored and excited to join this amazing podcast team and to learn and grow with all of you. Thanks for joining us. We’re so glad you’re here.

With the holiday season in full swing, many of us are finding ourselves navigating the sometimes tricky and challenging family gatherings, especially with our queer kids. And for many of us, family is so important and central in our lives and so needed, particularly at this time of year. But family often comes with particular expectations, oftentimes unspoken expectations, about our participation and the participation of our family members. And supporting our queer kids also means that we find ourselves having to navigate inappropriate questions, uncomfortable conversations and sometimes even hurtful situations. Some folks are struggling because their kids aren't even out to the entire family yet. And then throw in political divisions and many of us still processing these election results and our anxiety about the impact on our queer beloveds facing others who don't understand our fear and, wow, you’ve got quite a recipe for conflict during this holiday time.

So I’m so glad that our guests today are old timers on this podcast here to help us out with what feels like an impossible situation are two of our favorite therapists, both of whom have been on the show a couple of times before and have given us such great wisdom and good advice. In fact, we just replayed the episode on Microaggressions about a month ago as a primer for the Thanksgiving holiday and for this very conversation. 

We are so happy to have Lisa Tensmeyer Hansen and Laura Skaggs, both therapists from Flourish Therapy in Provo, Utah with us again. Welcome back to In the Den, both of you!

LISA: Thanks, Sara. Nice to be here.

LAURA: Yeah. Good to be back.

SARA: Good to have you. I’m really excited to talk with both of you. I know you got to chat with our former host, Jen, in the past. But I’ve been thinking a lot about navigating these family challenges and uncomfortable gatherings. And I went back and listened to the episodes you’ve each been on and thought to myself, “Goodness, I would love to have either of you as my therapist!” It was just so helpful to listen to the episode, your framing and your clarity and really your unequivocal support for our LGBTQ+ community is so meaningful.

LISA: Thanks

SARA: So I want to tell us all a bit more officially about each of you. Lisa Tensmeyer Hansen is the clinical director and founder of Flourish Therapy,a behavioral health clinic located in Provo, Utah. She founded in February 2017 to meet the needs of LGBTQ+ and SSA individuals and their families. Lisa received her bachelor’s from BYU and a Masters and Ph.D. all from BYU, focusing on improving the mental health of LGBTQ+ people in conservative families and communities.

 Laura Skaggs is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist who also works in the Flourish Counseling Therapy Clinic, specializing in treating spiritual trauma at the intersection of LGBTQ+ experiences and religion. Laura is one of the Flourish Therapists and earned her master’s degree in marriage and family therapy at San Diego State University with an emphasis in LGBTQ+ mental health within conservative religious social contexts. So both of you have some really deep professional experience in this conversation. And I’m so very grateful for that because I really want to start with – I think it’s really important to start with this collective deep grief and anxiety and fear that we are experiencing as Mama Dragons, as parents of queer kids, as people who have queer beloveds in our life in the wake of this election and the impact we’re already experiencing and the threat of the potential impact that’s coming down the line. I know that our community is just reeling and really quite terrified for our queer beloveds. Folks are making plans to relocate. Kids are already experiencing fear to go to school, and fear to ride the bus. And some of our older youth are concerned about applying to colleges and what colleges might be safe and where and being so far away from family. So there’s just a lot that’s stirring, and stirring up a lot of anxiety and It’s really quite heartbreaking. And then some of us also exist in spaces, particularly with family members, who don’t understand why we're so sad and scared and anxious, and that’s really painful to hear, and sometimes, frankly, a bit infuriating too. So that’s a lot. But I wanted us to start there and ask you what wisdom you might have for us just in navigating this stress and anxiety in this moment in general? Lisa, let’s start with you.

LISA: Well, first of all, I just want to validate all of what you just said. The idea that people around us sometimes don’t understand why the anxiety is increasing actually doubles the anxiety and the risk. What gives us a sense of being able to move in our world and thrive is that we feel socially safe, not talking about the “woke” safe of “Everybody has to make me feel comfortable, make me feel safe.” It’s the safety of “If I experience some difficulty or I have trouble, will people come to my rescue or will they blame me, or will they leave me alone to whatever the problem is?” For example, if I go to the store and shop, if a group of people starts making fun of me, will anyone come to my rescue or will they assume it’s how I’m dressed or what I look like that I deserve this or that they should join in. I would say all of our clients have had experiences of not being socially safe when something happens, whether it’s bullying at school, or whether it’s relatives who say mean things, whether it’s neighbors, whether they hear it politically that people are now going to have a reason to have someone behind them, supporting some terrible thing they’re going to say about someone’s identity. Our clients have experienced a lack of social safety. And people who haven’t experienced it, can’t imagine that it’s really all that meaningful. And yet, when you have experienced it, you want people to understand it actually prevents me from thriving in my world or from reaching out or from having a safe space out there or a safe home base.

SARA: Absolutely. I’m very aware of a lot of my queer friends, adults, who are scared to go about their daily lives, to be outside on the street, going to the bank, going to the grocery store. And I know I have shared with friends thinking about my own trans kiddo who goes to work and has said that the atorkplace is very supportive. But I have never been so grateful that my socially anxious, introverted child prefers to stay home all the time and play video games and be in her room. Because, as the parent, I’m like, “Well I know where you are and I know you’re safe. And that feels better than the alternative.” So it’s a lot.

LISA: You get it.

SARA: Yeah. It’s a lot. Laura, what about you? What insider wisdom do you have for us in navigating this extraordinarily anxious time?

LAURA: As I’m sitting with people recently, I find myself using the words we’re in a state of first and foremost “processing” and then the words “assessing”. Assessing risk, assessing our resources to deal with potential risks, and so a lot of what I find myself doing or trying to say to people therapeutically is that assessment of something usually takes time, and so we don’t have to know exactly what the “doing” is quite yet. So giving time for that assessment and the processing of emotion and also like “What am I worried about? What am I afraid of? And how might I mitigate those risks or address those pieces?” I am sitting with people who already sort of starting to spontaneously come up with some contingency plans. Like, “If this risk or this thing that I’m afraid of happens, here’s how I might cope with it. Here’s where I might turn. Here are the people who say that they are there for me.” And that is helping manage some of the anxieties. But I think people are still, in many ways, in an assessment phase. And whether it’s the queer community or we look at how have any marginalized or minority groups ever survived hostilities, pushback, it’s by being able to turn to each other, right, and hold space for each other, and process while we start to regroup and do this kind of assessment and commiserate. This is a really important phase of somehow creating both informed personal responses and also, eventually, more and more focused collective responses, whether it's in our communities or in larger socio-political ways. So those are sort of the conversations that I find myself having. And needing to give myself permission for, just as much. I myself am also queer. I’m also gay. So I’m asking myself those questions as well.

SARA: And that’s a tricky space, to be thinking and figuring out and processing your own stuff while also being with others in a professional space and in a community setting that you need to support. I’ve been thinking a lot about grief and this kind of collective grief we’re all feeling. And the grief is not just about “My person didn’t win.” The grief is about this loss for what could’ve been for us as a people, as a country, this loss of fundamental human rights and this hope that that might’ve turned around, and the impact that a supportive government might have and that trickle down effect as opposed to a really threatening and oppressive government is very real. From someone who lives in a very conservative state, we feel it all the time. And the grieving has been hard because we’re in hyperreactive mode. We’re in making plans and lists and supporting each other. And I know I’m really trying to talk with my community about still hold space for grief. Don’t walk over the grief. Don’t ignore the grief because it’s such an important part of the process.

LISA: Yes. Absolutely.

SARA: And so in these moments, oftentimes, a lot of us are used to or might think about turning to family and family spaces. But in these cases, there’s a lot of division in our families and there’s a lot of tricky and challenging situations in the life of families where as parents we’re supporting our kids, but maybe not everyone in the family is. and now we’ve all got to come together for the holidays and expectations about coming together for the holidays are high. So I want to break this up a little bit in talking a little bit about preparation. What happens at a gathering when things go sideways and then kind of the resolution, exit plan, caring for ourselves on the back end. So let’s just imagine we’re preparing to go to a family gathering. We know we’re going to go. How do we talk with our kids about expectations, what to do if they start feeling uncomfortable? How do we prepare ourselves and our kids emotionally for the experience?

LISA: I’m going to start with and build on what Laura said about assessing. And that is that we assess who we imagine might be there. And if the situation is likely to be one that is going to be helpful for our kiddos or ourselves, or not. And if it’s not, that’s one thing. If it’s marginal, then I think it’s probably a good idea to actually call up a couple of people who are going to be there, find out how they’re doing, find out if we can rely on them as allies in this situation if something should come up. If so-and-so should say something, would they be willing, especially if it’s happening in their home, for example. And find out just how deep the allyship might go. And if we think maybe because our kiddo looks different this year than last year, that there might be some who might make some comments to actually run some interference ahead of time. This is easier if our child is actually out. But even if they’re not, it might be helpful to say, “I would like to make sure that there are no extraneous comments about how my child is coming across. And so I just want to set the stage for “If you think that you can handle what you might experience with my child’s presentation without making comments on it, we’d be happy to come. If it’s not something that you think can be navigable, then we’ll make other decisions this year.” I think it’s up to parents to actually assess and suss out what the landscape might be.

SARA: I really appreciate the visual, the image of running interference, and of seeking out allies in your own family, folks who you can kind of help gauge the situation and whether or not it feels okay for you and your family to attend and if they’ll be there and have your back. Thank you for that. I learned something. 

Laura, what about you? What might we do to prepare ourselves emotionally? We’ve laid this groundwork, perhaps. We’ve run some interference. We’ve assessed the landscape. And still, that anxiousness lives there about how it’s going to go. So what might be your advice for how might we prepare ourselves ahead of time spiritually, emotionally, for showing up in a space that might be a little uncertain?

LAURA: And this is sort of the same skill that Lisa’s sort of highlighting which I would maybe name “having the smaller conversation.” Having these smaller conversations to help manage the bigger space that we’re stepping into with this room full of people. And Lisa was talking about doing that with, potentially, family members, extended family members. But on the side of maybe parents preparing, everything from having those smaller conversations with their child so they’re very aware of what their child’s sense of vulnerability is. As a parent, you might be really worried and your child might feel totally fine, or opposite. You think everybody in the family is pretty safe or manageable. And your child’s like, “No. You have no idea or you have no idea what this person just said or posted on social media.” So having that smaller conversation with your child. But then also – that’s part of assessing, back to assessing – but then I think parents having other places where they turn outside of the family, their friends, their supports to process the things that they’re afraid of. Any time parents take the time to do that for themselves, they just seem to be in a much more grounded space. Or to be able to go – I don't know – “I’m heading to Thanksgiving and can you stand by, just as another friend, be on standby in case I need to text if this goes wild?”

LISA: Yes.

LAURA: You having an ally for you makes you a better ally for your child. Just having these smaller conversations tend to create much more support and smooth out the places where it’s needed.

SARA: Yeah. Setting our own selves up for being supported in the moment is really important and oftentimes neglected a lot, particularly by moms I would say. I want to go back a little bit to talking about the experiences of our kids or what they’re anticipating being potentially different from our own. And two different scenarios because one of the things that has come up in the community that I hear people in my circles talk about a lot is “My kiddo wants to go. But we’re worried they don’t quite understand that family members could be hurtful or they don’t know the full extent of their queerness, or – as one of you mentioned – they look different than last year and we want to protect them from those really uncomfortable questions.” But all our sweet kiddos know is the joy of being with and connecting with family. And they’re not necessarily thinking about that or prepared for that. How do we have that conversation? Lisa, why don’t you kick us off.

LISA: Well, I think it’s important for parents to sort of parse out whether they’re more concerned about how they’re child is going to be received or if it’s, “I don’t want to have to deal with this myself with my family.” Kids of all ages, and what Laura said applies not just to kiddos under 18, but also adult children who are going with us to family occasions. But to find out whether we just don’t want others in the family to question our own parenting because extended family often says things that sort of suggest that “This is happening because you’re being too lenient of parent, or this is because you let them go to the pride parade, or that it’s probably their friends. You know how contagious this is.” Parents have to deal with stuff too. So before they have a conversation with their child of whatever age, it’s important to parse that out so that what they’re talking about with their child is not that. Because anything that comes across to a child like, “Hey. We need you to tone this down a little bit so we’re not – for we’re not sure we should go because it’s so uncomfortable for us” – actually destroys a child’s sense of social safety and that their parents are going to stand up for them. I think being able to start a conversation by saying, “We would like you to be able to go anywhere you would like to go and we will stand up for you 100% and we’ll take it on if stuff happens,“ has to be the first sense that a parent has. Then, a child can understand if their “Aunt so-and-so, sometimes she says really tough things that are going to be hard to forget once you’ve heard them. It’s going to be hard to unforget them because we don’t think she understands things. And that’s what we want to protect you from,” , has a totally different ring from “We’re not sure that we can all handle this,” Which is the message the kid will get. That’s the first thing. What would you add to that, Laura?

LAURA: I think what Lisa just articulated was essentially what’s come out of that Family Acceptance Project research, where if we’re afraid for our child’s safety and so we try to hide them, our child integrates a message of rejection. And we’re showing them that coping is essentially avoiding. We’re getting marginalized into spaces being away. But that when parents do, like Lisa said, where they say, “Okay. We might even be identifying a challenge here, but I want you to know if anything is said, if anything happens, I am here to speak up. I am here to intervene. I am here to help keep you safe, protected.” That that is an affirming response. That is much more in line with good mental health for children. And you’re actually also modeling to your child how to learn to speak up for themselves and to be able to go into sometimes complex spaces. I’m not saying “I would rather use my energy for so many other things than to deal with social discrimination, microaggression, all the things. And yet, learning those skills to be able to speak up and to self-advocate and to know that people will advocate with you.” Again, rather than just, “Could you just not wear that so that nobody says anything,” And that that’s me protecting you. No. Wrong Direction. “Honey, wear what you want and if Aunt So-and-so has something to say about it, I’m going to be right there telling her she needs to mind her business or stop being jealous of your cute dress or whatever.” Whatever it is, that’s a much more empowering response to the development of your child. Now, of course, if you really know it’s so hostile that you don’t even want to be in there, that’s a different sort of judgement call. But I think you want them to see those skills, learn those skills, and know that you have their back and say, “And if I’m not there in the room, text me. If someone says anything, I’m here. I’m your ally.” And usually when I’m sitting with queer people when they’re thinking about going into their family events, that’s exactly what I’m inviting them to do. “Who’s your ally at the event? Oh, it’s my cousin. Well, tell her you’re nervous. Connect with her beforehand. Make sure that she knows this is an opportunity for her to do what you already know her heart wants to do, which is be there for you in the complex family system.”

SARA: Yeah. Sometimes, in any gathering, we can feel like we’re being tied up in an uncomfortable conversation. And wouldn’t it be great to have someone who could just please come rescue us, pull us out of this conversation. That’s a great tip. I’m still chewing on what you said earlier about sometimes our kids have had experiences with family members that have been uncomfortable or hurtful and we don’t necessarily know about it, and taking some intentional time to ask those hard questions before accepting an invitation to really try to understand. I may never have been witness to something hurtful or inappropriate that someone has said to my kiddo in a large family gathering. And that just sparked me because that’s not something that I’d thought about before.

LISA: And sometimes kids feel like they’re protecting their parents by not telling them. So as a parent, being able to say, “Look, there’s nothing you can tell me about family and what they’ve done or said that is going to be overwhelming to me. I’m the parent. I can handle it. The one who stood up at the beginning and said, I’m going to be your protector, and I will still be your protector. And I will handle it in a way that is okay with you. I’m not just going to make you feel embarrassed or the center of a problem.”

SARA: Right. Because I know in our world, oftentimes my own kiddo thinks I can come on a little too strong.

LISA: That’s because we’re parents.

SARA: Things roll off her back that may not roll off mine. And she has invited me to move back and assess my own dragon self and maybe bring it down a notch or two.

LISA: That’s an important part of this.

SARA: And check in with her about, how is that landing for her?

LISA: Exactly.

SARA: And so I have some awareness in this situation that I need to work on.

LISA: And the fact that she can say that to you is already success.

LAURA: I was thinking that too. That is good allyship is, taking feedback about how that allyship happens and the words that are used. And if we’re being good allies, we’re never not going to have some feedback because somebody knows we’re listening and that we’re actually going to take that in and then we’re going to be better allies afterwards.

SARA: And usually it comes out because I’m venting in the car or in some other space outside and she’s like, “Take a breath, Mom. It wasn’t that bad.” So thank you for affirming that I’ve been able to hear that and am aware that that needs some work as we move into this holiday season.

LAURA: What I was going to say too, Sara, when you were touching on things that parents don’t always know that gets said, because oftentimes queer people they stay in the closet, we stay in the closet for years and years and years, so many things get said that we never talk about. And so then, maybe as we’re coming out or we’re finally out and assessing going to a family event, all of the sudden there can be wounds from ten years ago sometimes of what Uncle So-and-so said about gay people or what Grandma said about trans people, even five years ago. So you might have never heard it, but your child may have absorbed quite a bit. As a queer person you’re so sensitive to these things and you’re assessing even years and years later sometimes, especially when people are newly coming out or, like we were talking about in the beginning, this very vulnerable sociopolitical context that we’re all living in. It can all feel very fresh.

SARA: Well, as you’re talking, I’m just thinking about how important it is to be present to that and honor that when it comes up. If you’re being sucked back into ten years ago when someone in your family, you know, Uncle Joe, said something awful to you and you weren’t even out yet, that in this particular moment when things are so heightened really, really checking in and allowing that that’s a perfectly valid reason not to talk to Uncle Joe or not to go.

LAURA: Yes. There’s a lot of complex identity integration when people are somewhere in the middle of sorting themselves out. And so, yeah. Things that have been said or happened many years ago, just now are being processed. And the timelines and the journeys aren’t necessarily lining up. So it’s lovely when a parent will just say, “Help me understand what it’s like for you right now when you imagine being in that room? When you imagine sitting around that table or sitting around the living room, what comes up for you?”

SARA: That’s so helpful. You both have been really good about talking about the value of setting boundaries and that saying no is perfectly okay. And saying, “No thank you. We won’t be coming this year.” or ‘No, thank you, we’re having our own thing separate.” And that it’s perfectly okay for us to do that. And yet, it is so very hard to tell family members no. And I know that I hear a lot of folks talk about the extraordinary guilt that comes with saying no. Internal, but external. There’s a lot of external guilt, especially around the holidays of Grandma, who wants to be around all the grandkids. Or if a family member is really ill and there’s some concern about this being one of the last times the whole family will get to be together with this person and that being a factor in the guilt. Talk about how we manage that for ourselves, when we know we need to say no or we know that it won’t be an environment that is healthy and supportive for us or our kids. How do we manage that no and set that boundary and deal with all that guilt?

LAURA: The question coming up in my mind is, “How transparent is this No?” Sometimes we just say no and we say, “We’re just making other plans this year because we don’t have the energy” – or all the reason that we don’t want to be transparent about the whys. And sometimes, there’s nothing wrong with that. There’s nothing wrong with just saying, “We’re going to be doing this this year. Hope you guys have fun.” Internally, I’m going, “I do not have the energy to talk about all the reasons one more time or maybe even the first time that this isn’t a good fit this year.”

LISA: I love that, Laura. And I think we can add to that the magic of what I call the short visit. That is, if we can’t actually come and spend the day or the week, we can arrange a good facetime with Grandma without Uncle So-and-so there who’s going to make some comment. Or we can arrange some sort of, “We’ll go to dinner with you on Friday afternoon. Or let’s plan a shopping trip with this particular family member.” But a short visit that doesn’t have with it the risk of, after about the third comment when mom says, “I don’t think that’s the full story, but thanks” – or whatever it is – we are actually going to leave and create that scene to be able to just do a short visit with the people that we want to spend time with, helps us put a little of that guilt to rest.

SARA: I appreciate the affirmation that it’s okay just to say, “Not this year. Sorry. Not this year.” But, Lisa, you’ve also really helped us craft in prior episodes some really clear but succinct ways to deliver a No. Some of the scenarios, it’s the outside pressure. It’s an in-law who’s doing all the guilty pressure because they’re hosting this year. And it’s sort of indirect but they’re really applying the pressure. Can you help us with a couple of great phrases about how we might be clear if we have the energy and capacity to say why?

LISA: Sure. And I love the ones that Laura’s already set up for us. Just, “This isn’t a good year for us to come.” That gives people a sense that there are reasons but that we’re not really prepared to fully form them. So if somebody pushes back and says, “Oh has this been a terrible year? Is this not a good year for you? What’s going on?” To just be able to respond and say, “Well, we sort of took stock and we thought for a couple of reasons it would be better for us to do something different with our family this year. We love you. We hope things go well. Maybe we can call in and see how Grandma’s doing at dinner and see how the turkey is. But it’s going to be really important for us to pull in and do some things that would be good for our family.” So just all the specifics and all the vagueness at the same time so that the person you’re talking to can sense this isn’t just a, “No. I don’t want to be with you.” It’s “We have crafted some feelings and some ideas about our own family and that’s where our focus is,” without being too divulgent or too throwing anyone under the bus. And you can just say that, “I don’t want to throw anybody in our family under the bus.” They don’t have to know whether it’s them or someone else extended or someone in your own family or yourself. You can even say, “I don’t even want to throw myself under the bus. But this is not a good year.”

SARA: That’s really helpful. I’ve been thinking a lot about how the value of saying, “It’s been a really tough year for us. We’re really exhausted. Lots of stuff going on. And we just want to have a little quiet family time at home that feels less stressful, less loud . . .”

LISA: Less chaotic.

SARA: . . . Chaotic, there’s the word.

LISA: This family at best is chaotic.

SARA: Correct. Right. I know that I come from a wonderful immediate, very supportive family and so I don’t tend to have these particular worries around how they will be with my kiddo. But being in a room and cooking dinner with five people and then being at a dinner with ten people around the table is an exhausting experience in and of itself and very chaotic with seven year olds and a fifteen-year-old and a nineteen-year-old. It’s just a lot. And acknowledging the a-lot-ness of this time of year, I think, is okay.

LAURA: It’s okay. But I think kind of going back to how this last question started. I think sometimes people do want to be more transparent about why they’re not coming. And I think sometimes that transparency is not in the service of even wanting to condemn anyone, but to be understood because understanding, right, is a key part of feeling connected in our families. And so since this recent election and a lot of queer people that I sit with having a lot of complex feelings about it, and coming into the holidays, something that I’m seeing a lot is queer people wanting to be able to convey, “I don’t want to come right now because I’m feeling like I don’t matter.” And them being able to say that is actually the most honest thing that they have maybe said in a long, long time about what’s happening in a family system. And I don’t know, always, what the equivalent would be for a parent. Lisa might have more insight. But I think there is value at times of being able to say, “You know what? With some of the things or conversations that are happening right now, our child is not feeling particularly safe or people like them in this world matter. And we are trying to wrap them this holiday season with people who 100% we know do. And we wish the family could feel like that for them. But we don’t feel like the family’s quite there. And if you’re curious about how that could be reshaped, maybe that’s a different conversation.” But sometimes these are the most important conversations that can happen. They’re really uncomfortable in the moment, but they can be the catalyst for maybe people wanting to listen and learn more. And I’m finding myself saying a lot lately, “I’m okay with your family being uncomfortable while you finally speak up for your needs for safety or why you finally say that you’re not okay with some of things that have been happening or that you’re hurting or that you’ve been hurt. I’m okay with people being uncomfortable and needing to sit in that discomfort because you,sitting in all this pain, as the alternative, erasing yourself, that’s not working. That’s not what a healthy family looks like.”

SARA: That’s beautiful. I really appreciate that. That really speaks to both the heart and the moment in a way that feels really powerful and hard. I find myself feeling a little choked up listening to you say those words because they ring so true. But the power of being able to say them out loud is extraordinary. And it makes me feel about boundaries as self-care. We’re going to do an episode on self care in the new year and I’ve been doing a lot of reading and really appreciating some of the reflections that good boundary setting is good self-care. And part of that is about recognizing for ourselves that it is not my responsibility to make other people feel good about my boundaries.

LISA: Absolutely.

SARA: And that’s hard because a lot of us are conditioned to be care-takers. And so when people are feeling upset about a boundary we’ve set, we can easily click into care-taking mode. But as I’m listening to you I think that was so direct and so clear and also just allows me to own my feelings and to remind myself that I don’t have to take care of your feelings. Thank you for that. That was really helpful. 

So that’s a lot of really good preparation for us as we’re thinking about family gatherings and the communication with ourselves and our loved ones. I want to jump to: We’re at a gathering. We’ve decided to go. We’ve made the assessment. We’ve made clear decisions because after this episode we’re all going to do a good assessment. And we’re going to make a determination that we’re going to go to this family gathering and that we’ve got some clarity. Lisa, you said something about the three-times rule. What are some of the things that we can set up for ourselves? We know that we’re going to go to this gathering. We think it’s going to be okay. But we want to make sure that we’re prepared for when it might go sideways when somebody says something insensitive, for example, around the table, how do we respond and how do we care for each other in the moment?

LISA: I think it’s helpful to have nonverbal signals with our kiddo of whatever age so that they can signal to us when something is happening for them where they can feel that sinking feeling based on what’s being said, even it it’s just some sort of innuendo or even if it’s a sort of mistaken understanding of what’s being said. It’s important for us to take it seriously when they’re starting to feel something. And then we can decide, what is it that we want to do based on what you’re feeling? Do you want to just take a moment and we go out of the room and we have a conversation about what’s happening? And then, is there also another level of, it’s all very, very, very too much. I need to go home. Or does it rise to the level of our whole family should consider leaving right now?So we’ll want to have this discussion with our kiddo about the different levels, if we think that there is some level of risk – so that we see when our kiddo starts scratching their ear or pulling on something or whatever the signal is or they look at us and they blink hard four times, whatever that signal is – that we’re going to have a conversation with them or we’re going to take some kind of action. That we’re not going to leave them alone in that feeling just because it is a chaotic family event.

SARA: That’s so helpful. Yeah. I love the nonverbal signal. That can be helpful in a variety of situations.

LAURA: And as I was listening to you, Lisa, it was making me think that most of us come from cultures of politeness and niceness. So just as often, a lot of the sense of discomfort or rejection comes for people just distancing and ignoring or treating people differently. Often, it’s not on overt comment or slur or something directly derogatory as often as it might be. . .

LISA: Who sits next to who.

LAURA: Yeah. Or who is even asking them about their lives anymore. “I go to the family event and no one talks to me.” And it’s hard to name that, sometimes, for queer people. It’s hard to name that experience, the combination of sort of drifting to the margins of the family even though “You’re still invited. Everyone’s welcome. I don’t know what you’re complaining about!” But everyone’s treating you differently and that combination of people distancing and also the sort of other side of the coin or internally bracing in case someone says something. It’s very complex. So I think what’s coming to mind for me too is, again, going back to assessing, inviting your child to be checking in with their body and what’s happening inside because I know at certain times in my journey, going to a family event, even if no one said anything, because you’re dealing with these dynamics of, “How will I be treated? Will I be ignored? Willi be attacked?” You’re nervous. It’s exhausting because you’ve been in hypervigilance for two hours, three hours, half a day, a full day. You’re ready to crash somewhere. You’re ready to just pass out, you're so exhausted. And then everyone’s looking at you like, “Nothing even happened.”

SARA: But your internal system.

LAURA: And I imagine, again, parents some variation of this potentially. But I mean, that’s what's coming to mind for me, all those things that aren’t said or all the things that are nonverbal that are sort of swirling underneath the surface.

SARA: As you’re talking, of course, I’m reflecting on my own family and my own kiddo who is neurodivergent and socially anxious and pretty introverted, which I know is true of a lot of queer kids, a lot of trans kids in particular. We’ve talked a little bit about that on the podcast. And as I’m listening to you, I’m recognizing the importance of regular check-ins with her because she is unlikely to say anything to me out of politeness, out of niceness, out of not wanting to upset the order and just really trying to be present in the space. And although, even if the space is mostly okay, the value of once an hour or so just pulling her aside and saying, “How are you doing?” And being really clear like, “Do you need to leave? Is it time for us to go?”

LAURA: Yeah. Or, “Do you need a break? Do you want to take a walk?” Taking a walk sometimes, getting a break, can be the best thing in the world at a family event. And to move your body, even, can feel so good.

SARA: What about, this has come up a little bit on some conversations which I found really interesting in the interaction of young kids with one another. It’s thinking about lots of young kids at an event together, and even teenagers. And how there is some, in family dynamics, there is often some kind of natural ribbing and goading and poking. But that with our queer kids, that could escalate because of their identity or just navigating that whole space. Where is the bullying line and how do we identify that line for ourselves and help our kiddo identify it for themselves, because thresholds may be different? Lisa, can you just unpack that with us for a second? That’s not something that I really had thought deeply about.

LISA: Well, when we have a traumatic experience, anything that reminds us of that traumatic experience, feels more like it could be intentional or that it includes bullying. So it’s helpful to have a conversation. Let’s say we have a middle school kiddo, or a junior high kiddo, and there are going to be little ones there at Thanksgiving that are going to say straight up, “Are you a boy or are you a girl?” Something innocent like that. We can actually talk to our kiddo about that and say, “So what if Suzie asks you if you’re a boy or a girl? What will that feel like? What will you want to say to them? Do you want somebody else to step in and say, ‘Well, of course.’ Or do you want to handle this yourself?” In some respects, it’s the same sort of question that we would help our child with if they had a particular malady or a particular something that was going on with their body that was apparent and obvious in a way that normalizes that sometimes people are going to ask, sort of, stupid questions about that and to help our own kiddo frame that as a curiosity that shows that they’re treating you normally, that they’re actually wanting to interact with you. And if our kiddo can conceptualize it that way and we can sort of assess that in our own private conversation with them, then we know that they may be a little bit more ready for the kinds of conversations that happen. If that question actually results in their own feeling of not passing or having self-doubt or it raising some trauma, then we know that they’re really not in a position to navigate those kinds of questions right now. And that helps us know what they’re ready for and what they’re not. If they are ready, then we can ask them about the next level. “What about when people tease you about what you were like last year or they laugh at themselves about getting your pronouns wrong and then they keep going with that conversation about pronouns. What would that be like for you?” And if they’re able to handle a little bit, we’ll be able to suss out what more they’re ready to handle and what they’re not, we can give them some conceptualizations of how this is other people’s problem. If they can absorb that, great. If they can’t, we just respect where they are.

SARA: That’s great.

LAURA: Just adding on what Lisa was saying, when queer people are telling us and it's really vulnerable for them to tell us, potentially where they might feel hurt or where that line is for them – when I’m sitting with people and they’re telling me and they’re often feeling a lot of shame that they can’t “Just be fine, handle it, just go so nobody else has to be inconvenienced,” right? And I find myself saying a lot, and I think these might be helpful words for parents to like, “There’s nothing wrong with you having a good soft heart. That when someone says something that doesn’t feel good, that you feel hurt about it. Imagine if everybody understood that those things hurt. It would change the world.”

LISA: That’s beautiful, Laura.

LAURA: Really helping them understand that sensitivity as a strength and that you see them tuning into their hearts and what hurts and what they can handle and what isn’t and that that is a strength. That is a really powerful response from a parent to help them learn to trust themselves and to protect themselves and that it’s okay to do that.

LISA: The aim is to not have such a hard shell that it doesn’t matter.

LAURA: So Brene Brown did really interesting research on belonging. And the baseline thing that she learned about belonging is that, ideally, when people belong in healthy ways, it’s they’re carrying this sense of belonging first and foremost within them. “I get to belong wherever I go. I get to decide that even though I’m different in all these interesting ways, that I belong just because I’m me and I can take that with me.” And so we want people to have that sense that they’re resilient and they can walk into complex spaces and know that they matter, know that they belong. But, like she said, the exception to that was going into spaces where we would be dehumanized. And I think, unfortunately, that comes up a lot for queer people and it comes up a lot more right now especially for gender diverse people. We need to assess and they need to assess and we need to help them learn to assess. We’re in that role of helping people develop those skills of, “If I am being dehumanized, it’s not considered a brave goal just to be able to take that indefinitely.” We’re not robots.

LISA: So true.

LAURA: Attuning to that line and also helping young people attune to that line and where they’re feeling uncomfortable about it. And not saying, “Gosh. If you were really healed or in a great place, then you would just be fine, like water off a duck, you just take it.”

LISA: Because too many queer people feel broken because they are hurt by things and they think it’s their brokenness.

LAURA: Yeah. Or the shame of admitting how they could potentially still go home and even have suicidal thoughts after something really cruel is said. The health is in learning to differentiate where we are safe and where we are not, feeling empowered to protect ourselves, and also turning to others to help in that journey of allyship and support. So again, if we can respond from that place of seeing it as a strength and then empowering that voice and saying, “Gosh. I am so glad you told me. Right, because I’m here to support you, and help protect you. And I don’t want you to feel like you're forcing yourself into a space that actually doesn’t feel safe to you because you’re worried that we’re all going to miss Thanksgiving or we’re all going to miss this family Christmas party.” or whatever.

LISA: And as opposed to saying something like, “Oh, I don’t think they really meant that.”

LAURA: Right, and minimizing it.

SARA: Right. I really appreciate this. This is beautiful. And particularly thinking about how our sensitivity can really be a super power and how much in family systems and culturally we’re constantly fed messages around “Buck Up”, “Don’t let it get to you”, “Roll off your back”, “Keep going.” Even as delightful as it is, the whole “Keep Calm, Carry on” message is kind of counter to what you just said which is actually there is great strength and power for ourselves and for our community in being able to name the harm and name the hurt.

LAURA: I mean, most of us want to be able to freely move in our family systems and public spaces. So I think that’s sort of the baseline default. We want to be a part of. We’re social animals. We’re social beings. So when someone finally tells us, “Actually, I don’t want to be somewhere.” Or “I don’t think I can handle that.” or “That actually hurt so much.” I want that to matter to us. And it’s usually a really big part in someone’s development in terms of being able to listen to where the hurt is and then draw boundaries accordingly and also feel like they have permission to do that. Especially parents, young people are so wired to their parents giving them permission to either protect themselves or not. So they’re looking to you for those cues and you helping them learn, “Yes. Absolutely. Your pain matters. Yes. Absolutely. It’s okay for you to say this is not where you want to be.” That’s, I think, really powerful. I think the alternative or sort of where you were starting where it’s like, “Yeah. Just buck up and just take it or let it slide.” That’s a default, so this is a moment to say, “Hey. It’s actually okay to own that this hurts and I’m glad you said something, and what should we do?”

SARA: Yeah. So let’s just round that out by talking briefly about the permission for an exit plan. And we’re at a family gathering, we’ve talked about verbal signals when we need a check in but also getting clear about when it’s time to go and how do we do that.?

LISA: I kind of want to start by saying that there will be lots of teenagers who would prefer not to go at all, anywhere.

SARA: Ever.

LISA: Yeah.

SARA: Fair.

LISA: And sometimes not even with friends because they are in this stage of gender identity that we call “Cocooning”. They’re home. They’re not ready to actually be seen. They’re not ready to actually have to face the world. And the idea of going anywhere for Thanksgiving is just beyond them. I think having a conversation with them about whether they have a sliver of bandwidth to spend a little time with certain members of the family, or if they don’t, is an important way of showing the kind of respect for them that when we do say there is a time our family’s going and we’d love to have you along and how can we make it safe for you? And having these conversations that you’ll get a better response to if you have been respectful all along of when they really don’t have the bandwidth. And parents get frustrated because they say, “Yeah. But they’re not doing anything to give themselves the bandwidth. They’re not trying. They’re not doing exposure to anything. They’re just not doing anything so this is the time we’re going to make them go.” That’s probably setting everybody up for the kind of experience that will make it less likely for the kiddo to want to go in the future. I would start with, “This is an important family time that we’d like to discuss with you and get your input on and get your sense about who in the family is safe, who in the family is not so safe, whether you’ve had good experiences with them in the past or bad experiences. We want to know and hold all these things so you’re not the only one holding it.” And then, after those discussions, “Do you have a sliver of bandwidth to spend on Thanksgiving or Christmas with the family? Is it the kind of thing that we should go to and take two cars so that we can take you home after the first X number of minutes or hours or whatever.” So I think this is what I’m getting at, is sometimes having two cars is helpful so that families can leave at different times depending on their differing needs.

SARA: That’s great.

LAURA: I love that. Very practical advice.

SARA: Yeah. Very practical advice. And I’ve heard, maybe it was a previous podcast about preparing in advance kind of what your statement is for “It’s time for us to go.” Throwback to our earlier conversation of we don’t have to say why. We don’t have to give a big explanation. It can just be, “We’re needing to wrap up now.”

LISA: And somebody will probably say, “Oh, you have something else that you have to do today?” And it is helpful to be able to say, “We have some things we want to do as a family on Thanksgiving. We’ve had such a wonderful time.”

LAURA: Well, this is reminding me of other pragmatic conversations that I’ve had with people about upcoming holidays where they’re making – a lot of times we travel around the holidays, right? And so oftentimes it’s traditions of going and staying overnight with family and being in these prolonged situations. And sometimes it can help so – I mean obviously it’s more expensive so I get that – but get a hotel. Have somewhere separate. Have a place to decompress, sometimes can make the difference between we can go and interact but we also have this place to go and decompress. And we have a place to leave if we need to and be. And sometimes that can make the difference between people wanting to go and try, knowing that they have a little time-out box.

LISA: So true.

SARA: That's really helpful. If giving yourself permission to do that and then to also find ways to have a break, especially when you’re traveling out of town. Take those walks. Go on an outing by yourself or with other family members whom you love.

LISA: Or maybe Aunt Cindy’s house a mile away is a good respite place.

SARA: Yeah. Always go to the movies. We always book that. There’s always a movie. It’s a guaranteed two and a half hours of in the dark quiet. Or something else.

Laura, I want to circle back to something that you said because I think this is a really great way to close out this wonderful conversation that we’ve had. It really struck me when you were talking about how queer folks in particular – all of us to some degree who are concerned about how family gatherings are going to feel – our systems are working really hard. Whether or not things are going sideways, even if things are going well. We’ve prepared. We’re hypervigilant. So our nervous systems are ratcheted up. And then when the little things get complicated and challenging it just impacts that even more. So would you start by giving us some tips on how do we deal with the stress of it all, before, during and after? I mean, we’re going to come home from these events and we’re going to have all the feelings and be exhausted. So what are some of the things that we can do to just kind of help reregulate ourselves and come back to a more balanced emotional space?

LAURA: I love that question. The two pathways of self-regulation and co-regulation, right? What am I going to do for myself just in my own power to help me literally manage my nervous system through this anticipating the event, going to the event, and then leaving the event. It’s a full-time job here. And also, I think we’ve started to, in so many different ways throughout the conversation, talk about coregulation. Like how are we turning to other people whether it’s in the family system, in our support system, how are we turning directly turning to them for support. So those would be the things that I would want people to walk through in their mind. In therapy, a lot of times in therapy we’re getting people to imagine. Imagine, first, what comes up for you. Imagine walking through this process. What are you most nervous about? What are you going to need? What’s going to feel good to you? Everything from taking a walk during the event to having your favorite soda that you like. It can be small things to just self-regulate. Again, reaching out to a family member saying, “Gosh. Our family’s feeling really vulnerable. Will you just be more aware? Will you just go out of your way to say hi to my kid and really talk to them?” You’re building in more support verbally in the family system but then potentially you’re also reaching out the people in your life who have nothing to do with your family saying, “I’m going to go have a kind of stressful but meaningful – I wouldn’t be going if it wasn’t meaningful to want to go – experience with my family. But can we check in the day after? Can we go to lunch when I get back?”

LISA: “Can I text you in the middle of dinner if I’m really upset?”

LAURA: Exactly. These are forms of how we coregulate, how we lean on each other. And also having those plans of how we are just going to take care of ourselves. And then also, as parents, potentially, we’re trying to get our kids to think about that, right? “What do you need during that day? And what do you want to do after if this is kind of stressful? What’s going to feel good that you can look forward to even if this kind of hypes you up?” Although, every queer person that I’ve ever talked to, they do want to have those experiences still with their family. They want to be a part of things. They’re willing to take the risk. They want those connections too. But they might also be stressful. So you can help your child walk through that process of anticipating, imagining, hopefully we’re all going to get through it together.

SARA: I know personally I have sometimes – I’m going to spill my secret if my family listens to this episode – I will excuse myself to the bathroom and just wash my hands for an extra long time. But something about the water on my hands and the sound of the water just an extra 20, 30 seconds of just decompression will sometimes be enough to get me back in the fray.

LAURA: I love it.

LISA: Nice job. Nice job. And along with that, a lot of times when we start to feel – even before we are actually aware that we’re feeling some tension – we actually start breathing more shallowly or holding our breath. And that actually increases our distress. So if we have the bandwidth to be aware before it reaches a level of anxiety that’s close to panic, it can actually be helpful to just check in with our breathing and allow ourselves to breathe a little deeper, which gives a little bit more oxygen to the brain. It also tends to neutralize some of the effects of the stress hormones in our system if we can actually expand our rib cage. Sometimes it takes five or six breaths to actually recognize that we’re breathing a little deeper because when we feel tension, that gets tighter. And then that gets more distressing. Another thing that we can do is, under the table or where it’s maybe a little bit out of the line of sight, an evidence-based practice is actually to take the fingers of one hand and tap very lightly on the fleshy part of the hand by the pinky to other hand so that there’s a little bit of the interrupting of some of the anxiety signal that the body has and it’s anxiety meridians. Or to press into the fleshy part of the hand with one thumb pressing into the base of the other thumb under the table. These kinds of things can actually also be tangible things that we can do to interrupt messages of anxiety that are traveling through the body.

SARA: I love that. I like the physical things that we can just do under the table, quietly sitting on the couch, that nobody really will notice that we’re doing but can have a real impact. Both of you, this has been an extraordinary conversation. And I could keep going because I am feeling both for myself, more ready to come into the holiday season with some tools and some clarity about gatherings and how I want to support my kids. And I’ll just name both my kids. My queer kiddo and my non-queer kiddo because they have their own stress around family gatherings too. So this has just been really beautiful and really helpful. And I want to end with one final question. It’s a question I like to ask all of my guests to you. but I think it’s a really great way to round out this episode and kind of recenter ourselves in this moment because we’ve been talking about stressful things. I can feel my own anxiety, nervous system, thinking about all of this, ratcheting up a little bit. And so I would love to hear from each of you as we close today, what is bringing you joy right now?

LAURA: Can I pick two? It’ll be a short one and a longer one.

SARA: Of course.

LAURA: The short one is getting out in nature which gets a little trickier when it’s cold, right? We have to bundle up more. We have to take more effort. But that’s a gift that we can all give ourselves. And something that I’ve found myself thinking about a lot, a lot, a lot, and I find myself wishing and conveying to my clients right now who are still, again, in this processing assessment phase of this world that we’re living in presently. And it’s we are not the first people to go through incredible setbacks and hostility as we make advancements in the world. And in this moment, I have so many voices in my head of Native American elders, of African American Civil Rights leaders, that I’ve been lucky enough to find and discover and take the time to listen to. And they are what is giving me perspective and wisdom and hope because they – so much before us – have dealt with the impossible. And they did not give up. They regrouped and they kept fighting for a world that was better because it was the right thing. And so this is the conversation that I’m having with a lot of my clients right now. Yes, the opposition is despairing and devastating. Yes, we have every right to everything that we are feeling. And also, we will keep moving forward because what we are wishing for and showing up for in the world is good. and we have amazing stories to look to, if we will. And that’s my wish for parents as well. Don’t despair for your kids. Learn from the people who have come before us and process with people who get it, and let’s keep on the journey of the good fight.

SARA: That’s beautiful. Thank you.

LISA: I totally underscore what Laura says. Nature brings me joy too. No matter what the weather is, being out even for a few minutes and breathing in the air and just walking around the block or whatever, is so, so helpful to me. And the other ways that bring me joy are related to what Laura said, the solidarity of knowing that there are other people who are feeling what we feel, and just sort of resting in that when it feels like I don’t have more myself. Imagining that other people are holding me up. Just that picture is helpful even if I can’t see them. And then the last thing that brings me joy is just that sense that it is okay to be me and make mistakes, to feel messy things, to experience the world in a messy way, to be out in a place where others could judge or criticize me and that I might not do things perfectly. It is still so totally okay to be me. That brings me joy.

SARA: That’s fantastic. Thank you both so very much for your insight and your wisdom and your expertise and, of course, for all that you provide for our queer community. We’re so very grateful to our Mama Dragons. We hope these tools have given you a little bolster as you move into this holiday season and know that we are all holding you and thinking of you and each other and sending each other a lot of love in this holiday time. 

Don’t forget, we’re available to one another on Facebook. That’s our support community right there. So reach out, especially during this holiday times, if you need to find someone to talk to. Lisa and Laura, thank you both and Happy Holidays to both of you.

LAURA: Thanks, Sara.

LISA: Thanks, Sara.

Sara: Thanks so much for joining us here In the Den. Did you know that Mama Dragons also offers an eLearning program called Parachute? Through this interactive learning platform, you can learn more about how to affirm, support, and celebrate the LGBTQ+ people in your life. Learn more at mamadragons.org/parachute. Or find the link in the episode show notes under links.

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