Reframing the Holidays Beyond Religion

When you and your family have spent your lives rooted in a particular religious tradition only to realize that your tradition does not openly welcome, support, and affirm your LGBTQ+ child or family member, it can be devastating. As a result, many parents end up leaving church. Some leave because of a lack of support, some because the church leaders and community shunned them or turned against them, some because they have a complete crisis of faith, unable to reconcile their love and support of their queer kids with the theological teachings of the church, leaving religion and faith behind altogether. Then the holiday season comes around, with various celebrations and traditions combining family and religion, and it can be overwhelming, confusing, and frustrating to know how to honor these traditions and engage in celebrations with a sense of meaning and authenticity. This week In the Den, Sara talks with Brittney Hartley, author of No Nonsense Spirituality, about possible ways to reframe the holidays beyond religion. 

Special Guest: Brittney Hartley

Brittney Hartley is an Atheist Spiritual Director at No Nonsense Spirituality. She has a Masters Degree in Theology with a focus in the Future of American Religion. She is the author of the book No Nonsense Spirituality: All the Tools No Faith Required. 

Links from the Show:

• Get No Nonsense Spirituality here: https://nononsensespirituality.com/book 
• Find Britt’s resources here: https://stan.store/nononsensespirituality 
• Britt on IG: https://www.instagram.com/nononsensespirituality/ 
• No Nonsense Spirituality on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@nononsensespirituality 
• Join Mama Dragons today: www.mamadragons.org 

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Transcript

SARA: Hi, everyone. Welcome to In The Den with Mama Dragons, a podcast and community to support, educate and empower parents on the journey of raising happy and healthy LGBTQ+ humans. I am your new host, Sara LaWall. I am a Mama Dragon myself and an advocate for our queer community and I’m so honored and excited to join this amazing podcast team and to learn and grow with all of you. Thanks for joining us. We’re so glad you’re here.

When you and your family have spent your lives rooted in a particular religious tradition only to realize that your tradition does not openly welcome, support and affirm your LGBTQ+ child or family member, it can be devastating. We’ve heard many guests on past episodes of the podcast talk about their own breakdowns, and heartbreak, and dark night of the soul when the answers they went looking for in their churches and religious communities weren’t available to them.

And as a result, many parents end up leaving the church altogether. Some leave because of a lack of support. Some because church leaders and community have turned against them. Some choose to leave because they’ve had a complete crisis of faith, unable to reconcile their love and support of their queer kids with the theological teachings of the church. And they leave religion and faith behind altogether.

Then the holiday season comes around with various celebrations and traditions combining family and religion and it can feel really overwhelming. It can feel confusing and frustrating to know how do we honor these traditions and engage in celebrations with a sense of meaning and authenticity. 

When the podcast team and I began talking about this topic of reframing the holidays, I knew exactly who I wanted to invite into this conversation because her journey and her work speak to the heart of this struggle. Today we’re talking with Britt Hartley. Britt is an Atheist Spiritual Director at No Nonsense Spirituality. And this year she published the book of the same name: No Nonsense Spirituality: All the Tools No Faith Required. I have a feeling we’re going to talk a bit about that book in this conversation today.

She was raised in the LDS church and became a published author in Mormon philosophy before leaving the church altogether. Britt has a Masters Degree in Theology with a focus in the Future of American Religion and has studied a variety of faith traditions in addition to Christianity. She’s studied Buddhism in Thailand, Sufism and Mysticism, Cults with a cult interventionist, Secular Spirituality, and her current focus in the area of secular spirituality, specifically aims to connect with those with religious trauma. Britt, I’m so excited you’re with us today. Welcome to In the Den.

BRITT: Pleasure to be here.

SARA: I’m really looking forward to this conversation today because I know that we both have a lot of experience in this topic but we come at it from slightly different perspectives. And so, Podcast Community, today I’m going to fully inhabit my clergy identity because as a Unitarian Universalist minister serving a congregation and a faith tradition which honors some of the traditional Christian holidays among many others, this topic comes up a lot in my world. And I thought Britt and I could have a really great dialogue together. So, Britt, are you ready to get started?

BRITT: Oh, I’m so ready.

SARA: Okay. I want to start with your story first because I think it will feel familiar to some of our listeners and help folks better understand your current spiritual framework. So would you talk to us a little bit about your journey from the LDS church to becoming an atheist spiritual director.

BRITT: Sure. And I’ll try to keep this brief because obviously that is a very long story. That’s my life story. So I was raised in the LDS, Mormon, church and had a pretty good Mormon childhood. I would say that I lost faith or started to question the church by the time I was a teenager. And I wasn’t doing theology at 14. I was more like, “Why does this God care so much that I don’t drink coffee? This isn’t making sense to me.” I eventually made some decisions that got me kicked out of my Mormon home when I was 16, which was very difficult. And I had this thought when I was 16 that I just needed to find out what was true. And if I could find out what was true, I could pattern my life accordingly and not be in a terrible situation like the situation I was in when I was 16. And so I really have been interested in truth and religion and theology and philosophy since I was a teenager. And I spent some time in Mormonism as a nuanced Mormon after that which helped me to really reconcile with my family. But eventually had a, what we would call, a faith crisis and a faith deconstruction specifically around polygamy and went over to Christianity and stayed there for a while and didn’t find a spiritual home there. And I was actually in theology school, so I was in my doctorate program in theology when I actually lost my faith in God altogether which was very difficult for me. The death of God was much more traumatic for me than losing religion. And for some people, they lose God and they kind of just live their own life and they’re off thriving. That was not the case for me. I had a very difficult time in the shadow of the death of God. I really descended into meaninglessness and what’s the point of all of this suffering? Was it ethical to bring children into the world? What is the point of any of this? It was very, very heavy. And for me, even suicidal. And so and all of these tools that were helpful were wrapped around theology that I could no longer believe in anymore. And that was what was so difficult. And so what really helped me was separating the tool from the religious dogma and baggage that had been wrapped around that tool. So a lot of my work now is that separation work. What is the tool, the things that are good for us, ritual, awe, community, transcendence, rights of passage for children, love, all of these things, wisdom, that have been housed in religion and can we separate maybe some of the truth claims that are wrapped around these tools that I can’t get onboard with anymore. But still, I need tools for my life. I need meaning. I need purpose. I need people. I need a reason to live. I need tools for dealing with death. I need tools for dealing with meaninglessness. And so for me, now, my spiritual approach is how can I get all of these tools, the best of what religion has to offer, with the least amount of dogma and drama and truth claims and some of the downsides of religion. And so that’s kind of the spiritual approach that I take now, what’s the best that I can get with as little down sides. And so it’s much more of a secular approach which is why I call myself an atheist spiritual director. Many people who come see me now as a spiritual director – it was a two-year program after my master’s degree in theology – many people still come to me and they believe in God and it’s unethical for me to challenge that. But they trust me because they know I’m not trying to put my own beliefs about God or any kind of supernatural onto them. And so for some people, they find that to be a very safe environment to explore spirituality.

SARA: I think, in listening to your story, that being an atheist, leaving God behind, the death of God, however you want to describe that, doesn’t mean you have to give up spirituality. It doesn’t mean you have to give up ritual. 

BRITT: And if you give up all those things, you actually may struggle more, is what we’re finding. That people in nihilism, they’re going to numbing behaviors or political religions or suicidality or depression. And we need tools. We’re humans. We need these things. And if we leave them behind as we’re throwing the baby out with the bath water, it can actually hurt us more than being in religion however damaging religion can be.

SARA: And one of the things that I often think about in my community and in my context is that no one religion owns a ritual. They have been co-opted and adapted and changed over time from rituals that have been in existence for a long, long time. And so we can, like you said, I like that language, work with the tool and bring our own meaning, our own spiritual connection into it.

BRITT: Yeah. A great example of that that I was just talking about with a client this morning is this concept of going into water in order to let something go. That is a a much more ancient practice than Christianity. But for me, in Mormonism, it was very much about we are the only ones who have the right baptism that gets you into heaven, right?

SARA: Right.

BRITT: And we do it at age eight and it’s very specific. And so I want to let go of some of that which I think doesn’t fit with the modern world for me, that this small modern religion has the only viable baptism that will get you into heaven. That doesn’t seem helpful to me. But this idea that there are times where me, as an atheist, I will go into a body of water, I will immerse myself, and I will let something go, and I will rise up out of the water with intention towards whatever my new chapter is going to be. That’s a sacred ritual and I don’t need to put the kind of religious language around it on whose baptism is the most correct to get value out of that ritual which is actually much more ancient than what you were saying kind of the modern religions and how they change over time. It’s much more ancient than that.

SARA: Oh, so much. I love that visual. And I know I talk a lot about, personally, sometimes wishing that Unitarian Universalism had some form of full immersion water ceremony. We don’t baptize. But the power of engaging in something like that, particularly in community, also is really meaningful, and it can be really meaningful. I’m curious how you talk with folks, though, because this comes up a lot for me in my world when folks are still coming out of that traumatized space where they can’t let go of the religious dogma and a lot of the shame and things that were tied to that religion that they’re trying to leave behind. So something like full immersion in water still feels so tied to that that they have a hard time even imagining that it could serve them or that they could welcome a ritual like that unattached to their former tradition. How do you talk about that with folks?

BRITT: Yeah. It’s a fantastic question because when I talk about ritual now, there are many rituals that I have kind of infused into my life and into my family culture which I’ve had to kind of create because we left the only community that we knew when we left Mormonism. And I will say that even though I can talk lots of nice words and beautiful rituals that I’m doing, I did not do that on Day One. I had to go through a time of grief and separation. And that was most healthiest – so my first two Christmases, I didn’t do anything. I didn’t make a decision on what I’m doing for Christmas or what I’m not. I kind of just baked cookies with the kids.

SARA: Did you have a tree?

BRITT: They were younger so, yeah. We had a tree and presents. But I didn’t do anything “Jesus,” probably my first Christmas post-deconstruction. It was too painful. Whereas now, there are many aspects of Jesus, even as an atheist, that I still love and still value and still cherish and enjoy at Christmas time. And so sometimes people come to me and they want to get there. The fastest way to get there is to actually allow that chapter of anger and grief to take the time that it needs. And we need to allow that forest fire to burn before we can start talking about new life. And so, for some people, the most appropriate response is, “I’m taking a time-out from Christmas this year.” Or, “I am just going to give voice to my anger and to my grief and that’s going to be my chapter right now. And I’m going to take some time to just allow that to process through my body. And I’m going to talk about that and I’m going to go to a smash room and I’m going to write some stuff and burn it.” That’s a chapter that demands its own time. And so for people who are trying to put off that chapter because they want to skip to the next chapters, that actually then elongates that journey. That takes longer. And so for me, there is something sacred about chapters of holy anger. Anger is an emotion that we have when a boundary has been violated. And if you’ve grown up, particularly as a woman or queer person in a religious environment, there are going to be many, thousands of even, boundary violations where your own inner voice was violated. And so how do we do that? How do we establish that boundary again? It’s through anger. And so holy anger demands its own time and its own chapter. And a lot of time, it’s just me giving a lot of permission because if you've never heard that anger can be sacred and anger is necessary and anger can be good – especially as women we want to repress that because we want to be happy and that’s not a good emotion. And I’m not good if I’m not angry – and so really it just depends on where the client is on their journey. And a lot of time that means we’re going to dive into anger and we’re actually not going to repress it. We’re going to get more angry. And not burn other people, we’ll put some boundaries up so that we don’t burn bridges that we might want to have to other people in the future. But there is something to be said for sacred anger and sacred grief and the life that can come from that. And that was true for me, too. My first year or two, it was very difficult. I was angry and I was mourning and I was grieving. But new life came from that, eventually, when I allowed space for that to process.

SARA: Thank you for that framework. The message of holy anger is just really sitting in my heart and how much we deny, dismiss, push that away. And I’m just thinking about the whole climate we find ourselves in right now. So here, listeners, gosh, tuning into that holy anger and finding those healthy boundary places and people who can give you permission to express that full, deep powerful rage and anger is really, really important.

BRITT: It’s such a game changer coming out of patriarchal religion because anger is not going to be something that’s going to be an allowed emotion from very early. As early as five years old, you’re already starting to repress that emotion, especially as women. And so, yeah, a lot of my work is giving permission to how to just contextualize holy anger when someone – I live here in Idaho – when someone needed, a woman’s body needed health care. She had an ectopic pregnancy and she bled out in a parking lot and left children motherless. The most spiritual response to that, the most appropriate response to that, the most guru sacred response to that, is anger. And it has a place in our pantheon of emotions. And coming from religion when that’s been repressed for so long and you’ve had boundary violations for so long, that may need to be a whole chapter. And that’s okay too. And my first Christmas wasn’t all new rituals that I had mental energy for. I didn’t have the mental space for that. I just kind of whatever was happening, take pictures with Santa, make some cookies, put up a tree. I just kind of did the basics to get through it and I didn’t have any emotional energy for how I wanted to meet that holiday my first year. And that’s okay.

SARA: Thank you. Thank you for that permission that that’s okay. And just tuning into whatever it is you have the heart, energy, capacity for, is enough. But talk about when you were coming out of that time, what was the first thing you did? What called to you when you were ready to kind of begin reconstructing some celebration, traditions, rituals for yourself and your family?

BRITT: Yeah. What that felt like for me having children – it may be different if I didn’t have children – but what I felt for me, who’s very much still entrenched in a Mormon community, is that there are things about Jesus that are still worth celebrating, that are still sacred. There are parables. I went to theology school. I deeply studied the parables of Jesus, more than anyone should in a lifetime. And some of those really do reach my soul and are interesting and poignant and are valuable. And so I started to feel within me this desire to, maybe Jesus means something different to me now. Especially going through theology school, the historicity and all these things, I still have to be loyal to things that I learned. But is there some way that I can meet Jesus in a way that’s authentic to me, that allows me to connect to my community as well? Because I didn’t want to miss the sacred just because I was hurting because of some aspects of Christianity or some aspects of how we have treated Jesus over the centuries. And so for me, it just started with what is something that I still value about Jesus that I can do, that I can meet this person in my own way with my family in a way that also connects us to the broader community. That was something important to me and something that I wanted my children to have. And so for me, slowly, that just started to build. And even just as a story. So for my children, this is a story. This is not something that literally happened. But if we’re doing stories of Rudolph the Red-nosed Reindeer and Santa, we’re covered in stories. Is there something still sacred about the idea of the best of humanity being born in a manger? Is there something still sacred about the best of us being born in the shit around animals, sitting in the trenches with people, challenging us to love outside of our tribe, challenging institutions, challenging the ways that we’ve traditionally seen power and even wisdom by this baby that’s born in the most humble of circumstances? Is there something still very interesting about that story? And for me, that answer was yes. So I still have a nativity scene. It’s actually an islander nativity scene because my kids are pacific islander, which is totally non-historic at this point, right? We’re really getting out there. And that’s how we’re meeting it, that this is a story but there’s still something sacred and something valuable and something interesting about this Jesus character in the way that Christians would view Buddah – like there’s still something interesting about this mystic teacher. Maybe I’ve cut out some of the supernatural things that don’t resonate with me anymore. But I started adding Jesus things that I still could get behind. And that took time. And then it evolved into our own traditions. So we do Harry Potter gingerbread men every year because my kids really love Harry Potter. And I, as a millennial, love Harry Potter. And so some of those are just particular to my family and the foods that we eat and the songs in the house and that kind of thing. And then some of it is the parts of Jesus that I can still relate to. And I still teach my children some of the parables about Jesus that still inspire me so that they understand why these people are making such a big deal about Jesus around Christmastime, so they can understand a little bit of that. And that’s just totally unique to me and what’s resonating with me and also the environment of my family, the islander influences and the Harry Potter and at the top of my tree is a Sorting Hat and that’s fine. And it’s just totally unique to my family, but now it’s its own family culture that myself and my children look forward to. And it’s not just about presents. And that’s something that I think the atheist world, the secular world, really struggles with is that if we strip these holidays of anything sacred, all that’s left is candy and consumerism. And then it’s almost like it’s a new God, the God of Money and Sugar, right? Because this is what we do in Easter, we’re going to take out anything beautiful about life and death and we’re just going to do sugar. Well, that’s kind of creating a new God. And I don’t know if that God is any better for my children. So I do think we have to preserve some of the sacred, but in a way that you can authentically meet.

SARA: Yes. That’s really important and trying to think about how we bring in sacred meaning, and as you said, sacred stories. In my faith traditions, we do full-on Christmas Eve. But we do it in the context of exactly as you described, there is beauty in this story and there is power in this story. And it still speaks to so many things today. And it’s not rooted in doctrine. It’s not rooted in dogma. But there is great learning for us there. And there’s some great teaching for us there. And there is some beautiful magic, if you will, in finding those stories that reflect some deeper, sacred meaning and the time of the year and can still kind of connect with the culture. So that leaving religion behind, but still turning to some of the sacred wisdom and the rituals without the belief, also helps us and our families be present in a culture that is dominated by traditional, oftentimes Christian, holidays.

BRITT: And it would be a sad thing if my children couldn’t get together with their cousins on Christmas Eve. And my mother-in-law does a nativity scene kind of on a felt board. And it’s beautiful. It’s beautiful family time. And it would be sad to miss that just because I want to play the game of “Is this story a literal story or not?” Because children are really in the developmental age of symbols. And so, to me, I’m in a place right now where I can work with this story because eventually when they’re older, I’m going to go in a different direction with this story than maybe the Christian Nationalism direction with this story, right? And so I think some of that is okay. And I’m saying that fully as an atheist. And what would be really sad is if, because this story isn’t “Capital T” true, for two weeks, I do no Christmas things. My kids grow up with no Christmas Magic. We don’t go over to my family's house and we always have clam chowder which is the family tradition, they would miss so much family and meaning and sacredness and ritual and something to look forward to and memories. They would miss so much just because there are literal aspects of this story that I just don’t agree with. And so I think there’s something beautiful in that middle space where there’s a baby in this bath water. I’m going to hold onto the baby. But I’m okay with letting some of the bathwater things go. For example, my daughter, the other day she pulled up on her ipad and she said, “Mom. Something bad popped up on my ipad.” So I’m a mom. She’s eight years old. I go into crisis mode. Did porn get onto her ipad? And the picture that was brought up was a picture of Jesus but it was one of those really bloody and violent ones on the cross where it was really gory. And I realized that by her not growing up in Christianity, she’s just seeing something very violent and what she feels is inappropriate. But I had been so conditioned that I would never in my mind think that that was inappropriate. That’s just Jesus. He’s bleeding out. That’s what he does. So for me, there’s some aspects that I don’t think are appropriate for children or are dogmatic or cause problems in the world. And I want to let all those things go, but I still think that there’s something magical about Christmas that I can meet, even as an atheist.

SARA: As someone who grew up with a lot of interfaith influences, Jewish grandparents, divorced parents, mixed Protestant, I will say that my whole life, I have always found the Christmas Eve candle lighting to be the most powerful, meaningful, magical moment. And I will seek it out wherever I can. Of course, that is still part of our Christmas Eve celebrations in our tradition now in Unitarian Universalism. But I would go to the Episcopal church with my stepmother and very little of the theology really spoke to me, but wow the magic of those candles. That’s why I did it. There was something really important about honoring that the darkness and the light which is so wrapped up in this holiday. And this is where I want to go next because we hear a lot from those leaving conservative religion, and from kids in that space too, really questioning, why do we even bother with Christmas if we don’t believe in Jesus anymore, really because they can’t separate the Jesus story from the Christmas rituals and traditions. But I want to kind of talk a little bit and unpack a little bit some of the historical origins of Christmas because I think that gets lost sometimes when we’re so immersed, particularly in Christianity, and that sometimes the very delightful bits of Christmas tradition don’t have deep roots in Christian theology or dogma like the Christmas tree.

BRITT: There’s lots of elements. Sometimes saying that Christmas is really pagan, actually gets overplayed because historically, a lot of these things come from 17th century Germany and aren’t as pagan. So, as a historian, sometimes the pagan message that Christmas is really pagan, also isn’t historical.

SARA: Sure. Sure.

BRITT: And so it really is a big mess. But what is beautiful about it and one of my favorite Christmas messages is this idea of, who wrote the poem that talked about the Christmas Bells, “I Heard the Bells on Christmas Day”, that story. Is, this is the civil war, his wife had died that year from a fire. His kids had died. We’re in the middle of the civil war. His oldest is in a hospital. It doesn’t look like he’s going to live. It’s Christmas eve and he’s there with his son and he’s writing about just the hopelessness of what it is to be in the world. And then the bells chime in. “I heard the bells more loud and deep, God is not dead nor does he sleep.” And there’s something beautiful still to me and something sacred about people for thousands of years saying, “During this time of greatest darkness, here are things that are still magical and beautiful.” Giving gifts thoughtfully to one another, lighting candles in the darkest part of the night – which is a pagan tradition on Winter Solstice to light a candle that shows here are the things that are still beautiful and meaningful even in our darkest days – and trees and songs and even Richard Dawkins who is more atheist than anyone I know, says that he’s a secular Christian and when it comes time for Christmas, he sings Christmas carols, and not the secular ones. He sings the religious ones. And he goes into cathedrals. Richard Dawkins, the atheist of all atheists, finds himself in Christian Cathedrals singing Silent Night because there’s still something so beautiful about pointing to things that are meaningful even when the world is dark and things seem hard, and the nights are long, and the sun sets early. And there’s something about that.

SARA: And the connection.

BRITT: And the connection with other people and the thought toward other people, and the kindness. People are nicer around Christmas. They just are, right? There is a Christmas spirit. And to throw that away because the story isn’t historical or maybe the way that I want it to be historical, or it is historical, it’s just a mess. The bible’s a mess. 16th Century Christmas is a mess. Paganism is a mess. It’s human. It’s all a mess. But the fact that we have a tradition that we’re going to set aside this time, the darkest time of the year, to bring to light things that are still meaningful and the sacred and being kinder toward one another and family time and taking time away from work because there are things more meaningful, and Christmas bells and singing towards one another and appreciating immigrants, an immigrant that came in, that needed a place to stay and was born in a barn. There’s something still so beautiful about that.

SARA: And there’s so much personal experience of transcendence and deep spiritual connection in those moments that I think about. And I think about ,in singing Christmas carols and even the imagery and the mystery and wonder and angels and starlight and this idea that even if I’m not entirely sure, maybe miracles are possible in the world. What are the miracles that I might be able to think about in my life in a way and always at the Christmas season, I feel that more deeply.

BRITT: Yes. And also the power themes that are as much prevalent today as they were when Jews were an occupied people.

SARA: Absolutely.

BRITT: The angels didn’t come to the power structure. They came to those in the fields, right? And these were people who were – and even the good Samaritan story and all these other stories – there’s something that continually points us to, not the power structure and the institution and the problems of power structures and kings that we can never seem to overthrow these kings, but that the angels come to those who are considered the most humble in the community, those who are covered in the feces of sheep.

SARA: Yeah. In the most ordinary, regular, doing the regular jobs, doing the hard work, the poor, those who are struggling.

BRITT: And there’s kind of East and West with the Wise Men, this unity of East and West which is really interesting. And so some of these themes, like the theme of power and the theme of what really makes a person valuable, is just as poignant today when we still seem to be – I’m just going to say it – voting for kings, as it was back then.

SARA: Fair enough. Yeah.

BRITT: Some of these things are just as prevalent.

SARA: I know that my congregation hears a very anti-empire sermon every Christmas Eve. That is just sort of where my brain goes. And I will say my brain also has been helped in many years by the newer releases of Star Wars films that always seem to come out right before Christmas which very much carry a very similar message about finding that inner force and defeating the evils of empire. And there’s a lot of corollary there. And I actually find that really delightful as a way to help people make secular connections with this mythological story.

BRITT: Yeah. It’s a universal reality. And I don’t think either of us are saying that the political right is the only one capable of acting like an empire. We’re just talking, right, more empires in general and our capacity as humans to group and start to call people as less-than and other and it’s something that seems to be inherent in human nature, especially human government.

SARA: How can we talk with our kids, whether we’re in the middle of the deconstruction and the holy anger or as we’re coming out of it and trying to think about what do our kids want? How do they want a holiday to look? And how do we start those conversations now that we’re not doing some of the more religious-centered rituals and celebrations.

BRITT: It’s a great question. And for me it starts with the body. So for me individually, it’s going to start with my body. Where am I at in my own anger chapter? And you’ll just kind of know, “I think I’m ready to do some things with this Christmas. I want to put on some Trans Siberian Orchestra.” That’ll just come from my body, and that’s mysterious, even to me. And so it starts with you. What’s feeling authentic in how you can meet this holiday and maybe even traditions that you’ve had in your family that you still want to meet. And then it’s actually teaching your children to be able to do that look within themselves too. And so for me, it’s an invitation to my children. What is it that you most love about Christmas? When you think of Christmas songs, what’s the song that you think of? When you think of the magic of Christmas, what do you think of? And that invites them to go into their own bodies as far as what resonates with them and what do they look most forward to with Christmas. And so it became then, a family conversation where each part of the family had a voice in how we create the magic of Christmas. And some things as a parent, I still do. Maybe they don’t like all of my lessons. But sorry. I’m a mom. You’re going to get them anyway. But some things, like making the gingerbread men, my kids love making the little gingerbread men characters. They super get into it every year. And so it’s something that I’ll always do. And it really is about this individual journey of looking within and seeing what resonates with you and then a family conversation on how can this holiday best reflect the uniqueness of our family. We do Harry Potter gingerbread men. We have an islander nativity set. We have things from my husband’s family like Clam Chowder which doesn’t make any sense to me, but it’s delicious. I look forward to it every year.

SARA: No religious significance there.

BRITT: No religious significance. Something that my family did for our New Year’s Eve lunch is my grandma used to – she lived in Iran – and they would have a simple meal of goat cheese and figs to represent the simple meal that Mary and Joseph would’ve had as they were traveling. And when they moved to the states, it wasn’t always cost effective or available. And somehow in the family tradition, it just turned into cheap food. So it would be like bologna sandwiches and cheap off-brand chips and cheap off-brand soda. Which is like a stretch, it’s weird to explain, but it’s a meal, we eat a simple meal, a very simple meal, and we do it with candlelight. And we just talk about what’s actually important to us during that time. And is it a little bit different than the figs and goat cheese and Mary and Joseph. It’s a little different, but it’s part of my family culture. It’s what my parents did is we’d have cheap bologna sandwiches and have it by candlelight. And I continue to do that tradition too. And so really, our Christmas is now an amalgamation of my children and Harry Potter and islander and my husband’s traditions, and Christian traditions, and my family traditions. And it’s a mess. And it’s a beautiful, sacred mes.

SARA: I love the beautiful, sacred mess. I think mine are similar. Having just so many different facets of my familial upbringing and celebrations. My grandparents were Jews. So we light the Menorah in my house. And that side of the family’s always done that. And we also do midnight candle lighting. And I’m thinking about a lot of the connection – in the northern hemisphere in particular – with the season with some of those more ancient traditions of how folks, pre-Christianity, were honoring the turning of the seasons and winter. And so we get Christmas trees and snow and mistletoe and bonfires and light and things like that. And what it made me think of was that helpful sense of, I can tap into some ancientness and some ancestral practices from my own ancestry in those parts of the world or whatever parts of the world that are separate from contemporary Christianity. And so if I’m really struggling with rituals and traditions, I can look to some of those spaces to say, “Oh, there’s actually a deeper connection here.” And so doing this thing with, let’s say the yule log, we have a long tradition in my family of making funky little yule logs and then burning them. Well, that tradition goes way back. It’s not a made-up thing. I didn’t just make it up because I’m trying to let go of something else and make up something new. No. Actually, there’s an opportunity there for myself and for my family to connect a longer ancient line that some of these newer rituals that might feel new to us.

BRITT: Yes. And I do love that because, at its root, is what do we hope for? A lot of this is just things that we hope for. And maybe my hopes are different because I don’t necessarily believe that Jesus is going to come again and save us. But are there things in the darkness and in the hard times that I hope for? Are there things about humanity that are sacred? Are there things about human nature that are beautiful? That’s still always there and much more ancient than our religions. And however you meet that, I think, will always be sacred. And you’re right, there is something about the dark and having candles or a fire that feels a lot more ancient in our bones – especially for me being Mormon, this is a 200 year old religion – this is a very new religion. But fire, something like fire, is as ancient as our memory, as human memory. And we can definitely tap into some of those things.

SARA: Yeah. I think about when I first came to the church community I’m serving now, they have had a longstanding tradition of doing very separate winter solstice service as close to the timing of the solstice as possible. And that service is done almost entirely in the dark for the whole service, focuses on lots of deep meditation and candle lighting. The main ritual is a big candle table and folks are invited to come forward, light a candle, speak a word or two into the community about what they’re lighting their candle for, what hope for the new year and the coming of the light – it’s the longest night of the year, now our nights are going to start to get shorter, day will get longer – so the symbol of light and then they get some evergreen bundles to go burn in a fire pit outside. And it’s a beautiful service.

BRITT: And also, by the way, very popular with ex-mormons.

SARA: OK. I’m so glad to know that.

BRITT: And people from my community will talk about how sacred that has been for them. And so it’s been, even though we come from different Christian traditions, my own community that I serve in Boise, which is largely post-mormon, have ventured over and have so appreciated the winter solstice you do for the larger community. I know some people who only go to UU once a year and it's for that day because it is so beautiful.

SARA: There’s two things about it that I’ve really started to think about. It’s deeply personal and quiet. But you’re also there in community. And there’s that power of the experience that might be very individual but you’re sharing it with other people in a very quiet, reflective kind of space. And I want to talk a little bit about community and ritual and how community can help deepen the experience of ritual or amplify it in some way. And so even just finding your little crew of folks who want to do a new thing together and have that just become a kind of ritual celebration or tradition can make it feel a little more powerful.

BRITT: Yeah. I think so. And it’s something that the secular world really struggles with. We really struggle with building community and building rituals, especially for children and for families. And so what we do in the Boise group, “Hey, there’s a candle lighting ceremony at this church that we're going to go to.” And we save a couple of pews for people in our group. People go over to yours. Some people have just family friends that have become family that they will either come up with their own tradition or even just build gingerbread houses together and just connect. And it’s something beautiful about Christmas time which takes intentionality when you’re not part of a religious tradition that just instantly gives it to you on a platter – this is what we do. If that’s not working for you, if that religious community’s not working for you, it takes intention to build that. But it’s worth fighting for.

SARA: Yeah. It makes me think about, in my family, we got very lucky after we moved here and became friends with another family in the neighborhood. Our kids were in the same class for a number of years in a row. And their mom is Dutch from the Netherlands. And so she brought to us the tradition of Sinterklaas and she’s very secular and very not religious in every other way. This is a very secular tradition in the Netherlands. But Sinterklaas, their Santa Claus, comes early in December and leaves a little gift in the wooden clog, in the shoes. But the tradition that her family did over there that she brought to us was we sort of draw names and you get to write on your piece of paper some gift ideas that are low price – under $25 – and we draw each other’s names and then we’re the Sinterklaas for that person. We give them a gift. But you have to wrap the gift in a really thematic, humorous way. And you have write a rhyming poem. This is the tradition of Sinterklaas, I guess, in the Netherlands. A rhyming poem from Sinterklaas about your gift. And then we read them outloud together.

BRITT: Beautiful.

SARA: And it has been perhaps one of the most delightful holiday traditions that is newer to us but we do not miss it anymore. And now it’s our kids who are like, “When is Sinterklaas? When are we doing that?” And I feel like it’s a beautiful way for our friend to bring a part of her culture and her home into her world and share it together. But doing it together, it’s beautiful.

BRITT: It’s beautiful.

SARA: We’re cruising on down to the wrap-up here. But I wonder if we can talk a little bit about managing the big feelings and particularly the guilt that comes up in these early years in particular when folks are deconstructing and reconstructing but still have family who are very much planted in that old religious tradition that folks are moving away from. And there’s a lot of guilt that I hear folks talk about in terms of not doing the holiday “right,” especially in the eyes of those family members who are tied to more of those traditional ways. Can you share a little bit about your own experience with that and how we might think about working through that guilt?

BRITT: Sure. And I think the key word in there in how you laid that out is the word, “Doing it right.” Because the reality is, the thought patterns that we get from being raised in religion last far longer than our beliefs. So even if you lost all of your beliefs yesterday, your brain is still the same tomorrow. Your brain patterns are the same. It’s almost like the house falls down, but the scaffolding is all still there and the same. And it takes time in order to rebuild that scaffolding. And so what that means is we have to let go of this idea that we get from religion that we need to do this – especially as mothers. Oh, my gosh, we get this as mothers – that we need to do it “right" and that we’re messing things up. And we’re doing it wrong and we’re messing up our kids because they’re not having as good of a Christmas as other kids. And , oh my God, we just spiral, right? We just spiral with the shame of it. And it took me a long time to unpack this pressure that still existed in my brain from being a Mormon woman, even though I’d lost my beliefs, that I needed to be ahead of my children so that they could follow me. And so I need to find the right way and I need to do things right and find the right path for my family. And that sets us up to fail because we don’t need to do that. We don’t need to be ahead of our children on a path that they need to follow. We get that idea from religion. That’s a religious-brain thought. And so, really, if we are focused on connection, the connection may be – or a year – that mom is really struggling because she changed her mind about something or she lost faith in something or she’s grieving something. And so this Christmas was a little bit different. It was a little bit more sullen. It was a little bit more, “We’re not sure what we’re doing yet.” But when we are vulnerably letting our kids, at least our older kids, in on some of that and saying or maybe even telling our kids, “There are parts of the Jesus story that I don’t know what ‘s real or not real. But what do you like about Christmas? That’s where we can still have connection, and meaning, and family moments and beauty. Even when we don’t have all the answers, even when we haven’t rebuilt an entire family culture which takes time and intention. And I think it’s okay to let our kids in and let us be human together. And when I shifted my parenting away from, “I need to have the right path so that my kids can follow me.” And instead just having it be about connection to my kids. That I’m just going to hold their hand and we’re going to human together. And I’m going to let you in and I don’t know the answer to this, but what do you think? Or maybe we can just be in the dark on this question together on this one. Or my kids have all kinds of ideas about reincarnation. They have all kinds of beliefs. And when I shifted my parenting to focusing on connection versus doing it right and leading the way so my children could follow, then it allowed for me to be in process and still be deeply connected to my spouse and children and extended family. And that really transformed my parenting and transformed that I changed my mind. And there’s a gift in that. There’s a Christmas gift when you think as a mother that you are ruining Christmas for your kids because it’s too triggering. The actual Christmas gift that you’re giving to your kids is permission that when they get older, they’re allowed to change their minds.

SARA: Yes.

BRITT: They’re allowed to go down a path and say, “Actually, I don’t want to go down that path. And I’m going to go down a different path.” Or “I haven’t found my path.” Or. “I’m confused.” Or “I don’t know what the hell is going on.” You doing that and modeling that that we can still stay connected as a family even if you decide to change your mind, even if you decide that you need to change course is actually an incredible Christmas gift that you are wrapping up and giving to them the year that you don’t do anything because you’re too triggered by everything. And so that shift really, really helped me with my parenting to just focus on connection and not having all the answers and not having to do it all right. But that as a family, we’ll figure it out together. And I think that’s actually a more solid foundation to build a family relationship on than this pressure that I need to be ahead of all four of my children on all four of their paths. Like, I can’t do that. I don’t know how. I don’t know what is going to speak to them. I don’t know what their spiritual paths are going to be. But, can we still be connected as a family anyway. And that shift really helped me.

SARA: And I think inherent in that gift is the messages that truth and meaning and spirituality can be a lifelong unfolding and shift and change over time. And so you as mom are also modeling that. We’re going to try some new things. I’m thinking different things. I’m exploring different things.

BRITT: I’m going to try this and it didn’t work, so I’m not going to do it next year.

SARA: Yeah.

BRITT: And that gives them permission to be on a journey themselves.

SARA: Yeah. So then talk about attention that sometimes comes up in families and the grandparents and the in-laws when they’re pushing back against your withdraw from the traditions that are so rooted in their religion.

BRITT: That’s a big question that we could spend an hour on.

SARA: A whole other hour.

BRITT: A whole other hour. But what I really try to focus on is what really tends to be helpful – and I know this from working with people and experts but also my own personal experience of not doing it this way – is whenever we can find common ground and speak and connect human to human underneath our differences and our ego and our doubled-down response and our identity response, because what can happen in these situations is the person who’s deconstructing their faith can become this black-hole need of validation. Like, they so badly want to be seen. But the people around them can sense there’s something about you that’s dangerous. It’s challenging my identity, my belonging, my meaning, my purpose, my community. They, at least subconsciously, they know there’s something about you that’s challenging to how they operate in the world. And so their ego’s only response to that, their only option their brain has is to double-down and wall up and identity response and “We’re going to do it this way.” And even threats that “I don’t know if you’re doing this the right way for your kids. They might not have faith in Jesus.” Whatever it is. And then both parties come away feeling disconnected and hurt and wanting to connect deeper because they actually do love each other but the connection has been missed. And so what I really challenge people to do is to find ways to connect human-to-human underneath the differences in our beliefs. Because whatever drives people towards their beliefs are because of human things that we can understand: A desire for hope, a desire for meaning, a desire to cheat death. I understand all of these things. I’m human too. And so rather than going in and saying, “Well, that’s not historical and actually . . . “ I’ve been the “Actually” guy. It doesn’t go anywhere. “Actually the wisemen didn’t come until blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And according to Luke. . .”

SARA: How about, “Jesus wasn’t actually born on December 25th?”

BRITT: I mean, I could “Actually” all day long and guess what, my relationships suck and I come away not feeling great from being the Actually guy. And so what I tend to do is say, “Mom and Dad, I really value the values that you raised me under. I really value my childhood and how you taught me a moral education and taught me about Jesus. And there are still stories about Jesus that I so value and appreciate and I want to be a part of for Christmas. But there’s some things, just honestly and vulnerably here, there’s some things that I’m just struggling with as far as my faith. And I’m just wrestling with some things right now. And so this particular activity, I just don’t feel comfortable this year. But I’m just still figuring things out.” So what that’s leading with is common ground. I’m using common language. And I’m also being vulnerable that, “Hey. I don’t have the answers here. I’m just struggling a little bit with some of the aspects of Jesus or aspects of Christianity that don’t feel like Jesus to me very much. And I struggle, maybe, with how the Christian world has treated gay people. It just doesn’t feel like, to me, the Jesus that you taught me. And so I’m just wrestling with some things. And so we’re going to come to this white elephant party. But this year we’re just going to skip the nativity thing just because I’m still wrestling with some things. But I love you and I love Christmas and I’m really looking forward to the gingerbread house party,” or whatever it is. That tends to be the best way to do it, when we lead with vulnerability, when we lead with our humanity, when we try to find common ground language that tends to bring people’s defenses down. And when people’s defenses are down, we can still deeply connect with people with whom our beliefs are very different.

SARA: That is really helpful. And I think even particularly so as we think about how a lot of our folks are really struggling with how to manage family traditions in this moment, in the post-election moment where we’re having a lot of feelings and struggles and things like that. Thank you for that language and that framework. 

We’re wrapping up together and there are a set of questions that I like to ask all of my guests before we close out our time together. And so I’m curious, the first question, Britt, is who inspires you right now? Who’s someone that you’re following that maybe we should know about?

BRITT: That’s a great question and I’m going to do something I’ve never done before. But it’s just what's authentically showing up in my body today.

SARA: Excellent.

BRITT: Because I have been studying religion and spirituality since I was 16 years old, so over 20 years now. I have walls – I don’t know if this is a video podcast – but I have walls and walls of quotes. I have books behind me – if you’re just listening to this – behind me is an entire book shelf of books and wisdom. And I have a lot of people I follow on social media. But for the majority of my life as a woman, I have had this tendency to defer to the wisdom of others and to put quotes that other people have said on the wall. Because, as a woman, it was a deep thought pattern in me that your validity as a female and your spirituality is only valid when it is approved by a man. And so our scriptures are written by men and our quotes are by men. And in the academic world, when I write, you have to footnote. You can’t just have an original thought. You have to footnote the correct man and you have to write in this academic language, right?

SARA: Yes. Yes. So much of that.

BRITT: So I actually want to do the opposite right now. Instead of listing someone else that has inspired me, what’s coming up for me right now is saying as a woman, “Myself. My own wisdom. My own subconscious.” Giving props to my subconscious and seeing what comes to light. Having a podcast like this where you ask me a question that I didn’t have in advance and just seeing what comes up in me. And right now, I’m in this phase where I read less, especially the spiritual advice from men who don’t wake up every day and immediately think and care for the children around them. And for me, that’s been an empowering chapter that I’m in right now that the person who’s most inspiring, the wisdom that I most want to hear, is myself. And it has taken me over 20 years of studying everybody else’s words to give myself permission that I actually have my own wisdom. So read my book.

SARA: Well, first of all, friend, please do follow Britt Hartley and get her book, No Nonsense Spirituality.

BRITT: And this feels, by the way, deeply uncomfortable as a Mormon woman to just say myself and promote myself. But I’m leaning into it because I’ve done it the humble way that everybody else’s wisdom is more valuable than mine. And it just doesn’t feel like my chapter right now. But I’m deeply uncomfortable.

SARA: We’ll say there is great wisdom here in this book that is sitting right next to me that you have written, and great wisdom in the words that you’ve shared with us, just today. I found my own self and tuning into my own body getting really emotional and grateful from a place of real gratitude of hearing things in a way that I hadn’t thought about them before. But I also want to take that answer and flip it around into our Mama Dragons community and also invite all of us to say, “Friends, look inside yourself and ask what about you is inspiring you right now?”

BRITT: Yes. I have never been asked the question as a Mormon woman because it has to be the “Proper Authority” and the “Proper Priesthood” channels. And so this feels very new for me. It’s even a little uncomfortable because it’s new for me. But there is something in that, that I want to claim now in that moment.

SARA: You just gave a bunch of us permission to do the same. So thank you for that.

BRITT: I hope so.

SARA: The second question is about fierceness. The Mama Dragons name and identity came out of this idea of fierce protection for our kiddos but for all the people around us. So what is it that you are fierce about?

BRITT: I would say that there’s a lot of things that I’m fierce about. But what’s coming up for me right now, post-election, is there’s this article that I read that brought out my fierceness this week which is that half of Americans believe that people on the other side of the political aisle are fundamentally evil. And that really scares me.

SARA: That is scary.

BRITT: And it scares me on the right and on the left. It’s just scary all the way around. So for me, what I’m really fierce about right now is there’s this attitude on TikTok from the feminist community that we are never going to talk to someone who has voted for Trump. They are fundamentally evil. They want to kill me. They want to take away all my rights. They are fundamentally different human than me and I never want to talk to one again. And I’m never going to interact with one again. And that, as a feeling, that’s totally valid, I understand that as a feeling. And then, on the right there’s this feeling of, “The left is so insane. You’re going to bring in all the immigrants and you’re going to change all kids into trans kids. And you’re just running your agenda and we’re going to lose everything about our family culture that is good and valuable and sacred. And you are trying to destroy my family.” My own brother, he was a Trump voter, he’s a Trump supporter. And he spoke to me and talked about how he was voting for his children because he feels that the other side of the political aisle is trying to destroy his family, his Christian family. He truly believes that. And right now, it just feels like when you have half of the country believing that the other side of the aisle is a fundamentally different human than you, I’m very scared at what that leads us. And what I’m really fierce about right now is our shared humanity and our shared humanity that, even for someone who has very different political values than me, the reason that they did that was because they’re scared. I understand that. The reason that they did that was because my brother – for whatever reason, whatever he was reading – really genuinely believed that his family was under attack. And when we stop seeing the other side as human and we stop seeing the other side in their humanity that they’re just like me, maybe with different hierarchy of values, but they are just like me. That’s when things get scary as far as history. And historically, when we can see that the other side isn’t human, that’s when we can do violence to each other. So, right now, my fierceness, even sometimes calling out the left on this, even though I lean left politically, is I’m fierce about our shared humanity and that the conversations have to continue. And the reasons people vote are for human reasons that you can understand. And if the conversations stops, that’s when violence begins. So right now, I feel like I’m fiercely fighting for shared humanity.

SARA: And I feel like that is a really significant answer in light of the conversation we just had and this time of year. That is, if we go deep into some of the stories, really is about shared humanity and recognizing that in each other and open possibilities.

BRITT: That doesn’t mean some things are okay. But the scariest thing about the Holocaust is that it wasn’t a society of sociopaths.

SARA: Right.

BRITT: These were normal humans, who have the capacity. So when we look at our shadow self and what we’re capable of doing when we’re afraid, when we’re scared, that at least now allows us to have a conversation. And when we’re in conversation, maybe we can actually lean towards policies that are for the well-being of everyone or at least most people. And it feels like that conversation is just not able to be had right now because we truly believe that the other side is not human. And that scares me.

SARA: OK. Last question and we’re going to turn it up and turn it upside down a little bit here coming out of that really deep and intense feeling and answer and valid fears. But I want to know what’s bringing you joy right now. Because, in light of all that you just said, this is a particular time which we all really need some joy. So what’s that for you?

BRITT: Yeah. Some people really spiraled after the election. I’ve had clients and friends that are absolutely in a tailspin. And although I understand them and there were times in my life when I was in a tailspin and I was even suicidal and just ready to give up on humanity. What has given me emotional resilience where I am still just plugging along is that I am so laser-focused on the things that are meaningful even if Jesus never comes again. Even if the universe doesn’t care that we’re here. Even if Trump is president and I didn’t want him to be. What is actually still meaningful. My work of helping people deconstruct from religion in healthy ways and find their own spirituality and build that in their own families and communities, still meaningful, still matters to that person that I got to talk to, and the podcast that I do, and the conversations that I’m having, those are still meaningful. And so when you actually build your meaning on purpose, not on society or the world going a certain way, but actually really build it on the people and projects that matter, even if a meteor was going to hit the earth in a month, because I’m so laser-focused in my life on intentionally building what I want to experience, I wouldn’t change anything. I would keep doing the same things that I’m doing even if a meteor was going to hit the earth. And that gives me a lot of emotional resilience when things seem to be going terrible. If you would tell me that secular spirituality is going to lose and religious fundamentalism is still going to take over and we’re going to blow ourselves up and the universe doesn’t care, I would still wake up tomorrow and do my job because to that person in that moment, it mattered. It still mattered. And so, really, times like this where it’s very hard and bills are hard right now and the economy’s hard and the election thing is hard, and it just feels like a lot of hard, if you can turn that into a catalyst, into what is still meaningful, even when things are hard or even if the world was going to go that direction. And you build your life on that, then you still wake up every day and keep plugging along. I still care about these people .I still care about my children. I still care about this job. I still care about these conversations. I still care about writing the next book. I want to write it even if nobody reads it because I love the process of it. and I’m so laser-focused on that that even when things seem overwhelming and hard, I’ve built my life on meaning, on my individual, subjective meaning. And that gives me so much resilience because the world is going to do what it’s goin to do and I’m still here enjoying that I got to experience being anyway.

SARA: Amen, Thank you for that. That’s a wonderful wrap up. A wonderful way to end this conversation and this time together. Thank you so much for your wisdom, for your light, for sharing your story with us. This has been an extraordinary conversation that I know will resonate with so many of our listeners and folks in the Mama Dragons community. We will put all of the links to Britt’s website and book in our show notes. So, friends, I invite you to go get a copy for yourself, especially if you are struggling with these questions for yourself right now because there’s just a lot of good stuff in this book to take home and take away with you. Britt, I hope we have a chance to bring you back and have another conversation. There is so much wisdom that you have to share with us. This has just been a wonderful hour. Thanks.

BRITT: Absolutely. And I’m so glad that I’ve gone and spoken with your group and you’ve come and spoken with my group. And I hope our conversation continues because it’s so valued, the work that you do.

SARA: Thank you. Likewise. 

Thanks so much for joining us here In the Den. Did you know that Mama Dragons also offers an eLearning program called Parachute. Through this interactive learning platform, you can learn more about how to affirm, support, and celebrate the LGBTQ+ people in your life. Learn more at mamadragons.org/parachute. Or find the link in the episode show notes under links.

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