Activism Through Poetry

Activism takes many forms, from frontline advocacy and protests to behind the scenes legal work and policy-making to creative visioning and artistic expression. Today’s guest In the Den is an amazing human who weaves all of these forms of justice work into her life. Sara talks with activist, civil rights attorney, and poet Sunu Chandy about her life, her poetry, and how art acts as an integral piece of her activism.

Special Guest: Sunu P. Chandy

Sunu Chandy (she/her) is a social justice activist through her work as a poet and a civil rights attorney.  She’s a queer woman of color, and the daughter of immigrants from Kerala, India. Sunu lives in D.C. with her family. Her award-winning collection of poems My Dear Comrades was published by Regal House in 2023. Sunu’s work can also be found in Asian American Literary Review, Beltway Poetry Quarterly, Poets on Adoption, The Quarry, and in anthologies includingThe Penguin Book of Indian PoetsandThe Long Devotion: Poets Writing Motherhood. Sunu is currently a Senior Advisor with Democracy Forward, and working with colleagues on Democracy 2025. She is also on the board of the Transgender Law Center and was included as one the Washington Blade’s Queer Women of Washington..  Sunu is delighted to celebrate My Dear Comrades alongside the book's cover artist, Ragni Agarwal.

Links from the Show: 

• Sunu’s website: https://www.sunuchandy.net/ 
• Find My Dear Comrades here:  https://bookshop.org/p/books/my-dear-comrades-sunu-p-chandy/18579401?aid=108866&ean=9781646033195&listref=in-the-den-podcast-featured-authors 
• Transgender Law Center: https://transgenderlawcenter.org/ 
• Democracy 2025: https://www.democracy2025.org/ 
• Democracy Forward: https://democracyforward.org/
• Join Mama Dragons today: www.mamadragons.org 

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Transcript

SARA: Hi everyone. Welcome to In the Den with Mama Dragons. A podcast and community to support, educate, and empower parents on the journey of raising happy and healthy LGBTQ+ humans. I’m your host, Sara Lawall. I’m a Mama Dragon myself and an advocate for our queer community. And I’m so glad to be part of this wild and wonderful parenting journey with all of you. Thanks for joining us. We’re so glad you’re here. 

Activism and justice work take on many forms, from frontline advocacy and protest, to behind the scenes legal work and policy making, to creative visioning and artistic expression. Today’s guest is one of those amazing human beings who combines so many of those roles in her life. She is an activist, a civil rights attorney, and a poet.

Her name is Sunu Chandy and she’s written a beautiful, award-winning collection of poems called My Dear Comrades, which was published by Regal House in 2023. Her poetry has been featured in a wide variety of publications and anthologies including Split this Rock’s online social justice poetry database, The Quarry. Sunu is also a Senior Advisor with Democracy Forward. She is on the board of the Transgender Law Center, and was included as one the Washington Blade’s Queer Women of Washington. 

Her poetry often draws from her lived experiences as the daughter of Indian immigrants, a queer woman, as a mother, and as someone deeply invested in making this world a better, fairer place. Her work is a call to solidarity, love, and resilience. She blends personal stories with urgent reflections on justice, identity, and belonging. Sunu, it is so exciting to have you with us. Welcome to In the Den!

SUNU: This is Sunu Chandy and this is a poem called “Too Pretty:”

October on the subway, Roses at my side, Kids being loud

One skinny girl with a cap and pretty smile gets up to give me her seat. And takes this chance to sit on her friend's lap. 

I read the paper and look over at these girls. So free and easy, they’re laughing, laughing. 

I look at the pink, pink roses and how say I’m not a romantic and how this whole roses thing is going to ruin my reputation against romance. 

I watch the skinny girl in boy’s clothes and pretty smile flirt with all the other girls, so free and easy. They’re laughing, laughing. 

And the man next to me. He is also watching, watching.

The man next to me, he leans over to me and says, “Hey, miss, hey, miss, that’s too pretty to be a boy, right?” 

As if somehow that thought disgusts him and he wants agreement about this disgust. 

And me, I’m just relieved that he knows I’m a miss and not a pretty boy. 

So I just shrug, and I say nothing because I’m still afraid. 

Afraid to say, What does a she look like? What does a boy look like? What does too pretty look like? And what is your problem exactly? 

And I don’t know whether his disgust is, he thinks girls who look like boys should be beat up or boys who look like girls should be beat up, because in fact, we know, they both are. 

I only know I was relieved he didn’t know my pink, pink roses were for a girl. 

And somehow I have the safety of passing. 

And I think to myself, you all sitting there laughing, laughing, 

sitting there on your sixth grade girlfriend's lap so free and easy laughing, laughing. 

Be safe my handsome girls. Be safe my pretty boys. 

SARA: That’s amazing. Sunu, I wonder if we can start at the very beginning with your story. Your story of growing up. Your story which comes out so beautifully in your book of poems of coming out. And I’m really curious of your path to poetry, how you found your way into writing and writing this book? 

SUNU: Yeah. So I am always happy to talk about poetry. I started writing poems probably in high school when there were things that I couldn’t really figure out. When I was grappling with ideas. I was part of a Quaker community and youth group. And we would volunteer with unhoused people. And the first poem I remember writing, and then it was published in The Quaker Life Journal, it was called “The Moment.” And it was when we were doing this volunteering and I couldn’t figure out if it was more for them or for us. And just feeling that tension about that love that is shared with young kids and that attention that’s given is real. But also recognizing that these large systems are so oppressive and powerful. And knowing that any amount of volunteering isn’t going to change that. And so grappling with that. 

So that’s where it started. I continued in college. I was part of a Women of Color Writing Group that was part of my senior project. And we had a really wonderful show at the end. And after sort of running these writing workshops throughout my senior year. And then I was in India for a year and did some writing workshops in Kerala, India, the southern state where my family’s from. And then I went to law school – and I know we’re going to talk about the legal advocacy part – and continued to take writing workshops in the community in New York City. So in Brooklyn, I took many workshops with lots of different organizations. And then someone said, “Why don’t you get an MFA in poetry?” Which just sounded bizarre to me. But then I understood there were a lot of evening classes and I could space it out. So I did it part time. So I did it over three years. And I did an MFA in Poetry and Creative Writing from Queens College, City University of New York which was a wonderful program if anyone’s interested in that area and interested in creative writing. A really, really fun community and got to take literature classes and poetry classes and workshops and had a manuscript, but then sort of put it on the shelf. And then during the pandemic, another wonderful organization, Unicorn Authors, was starting up. A friend of mine was starting it and I was in the pilot group. And it’s basically coaching and community building and just supporting people to get their work into the world if they want to or if they think that it could be helpful to others. And that was a journey because it felt very risky and it felt like I had a lot of insecurity around that. Who’s going to want to hear these poems, right? And even though I’d shared poems at many, many community events, it felt like having a larger audience felt scary for a lot of different reasons. But that’s what happened and I looked at The Poets and Writers Magazine where they have contests in the back and publishing opportunities. And I just sort of tried a couple of them and was shocked to be shortlisted and then won. So, in some ways, I’ve been writing since high school, many, many years. But then when I actually sort of put the revisions in and sent it out, it happened very quickly. 

SARA: That’s fantastic. And what about your childhood? 

SUNU: I’ll read another poem from my book, My Dear Comrades. This poem is about my family. It’s called “Sleet:”

Sleet occurs when snowflakes falling through a small layer of warm air in the atmosphere begin to melt. 

The melting snowflakes then refreeze when they pass into a layer of colder, freezing air. 

The weatherman said sleet is usually a transition moment in the weather. It just holds the place between snow and rain. 

But today, the sleet has lasted all day long. I walk home in the Friday evening sleet, painful and unrelenting. There was nothing transitional about it. 

And this is how it feels with my family. Stuck in this land between acceptance and rejection. 

A moment that should’ve been transitional but instead, decades of sleet. 

Not disowning me, but not quite allowing me in, either. 

One day, everyone is warm and laughing. 

And the next, it’s as if five separate conversations never took place. 

The conversations become so slippery that sometimes I must stop calling all together until the next pretty and deceptive email. 

“Look, we won marriage.” 

My father tells others he has no biblical or theological issue with his daughter being gay. It’s just he wished she was married to a man and had a couple of kids. 

One day it’s the lovely snowflake of “How is she doing?” 

And even singing songs at our wedding. 

And the next it’s the painful hailstorm of no pictures on their mantel. 

And yet, how could I possibly leave them for good when I’m still thrown something so promising every eleventh conversation? 

And the other poem that I have that really touches on my family is one where they really sort of come around in so many ways and in so many gestures. And that poem is called “Religious and Spiritual.” And it ends with my father, who is a minister, saying a prayer every time we leave and naming my spouse and naming my child and keeping us in the light every time we leave their home. And that is just such a beautiful metaphor of their acceptance of my family. And I really appreciate that. And I know so many listeners have probably taken that journey and are continuing to do so. So I just want to commend everyone for all the times they’ve pushed themselves to be more open and inclusive. 

SARA: Thank you for that. Your parents immigrated from southern India. Your dad was a minister. You’re a preacher’s kid. So talk a little bit about that experience? 

SUNU: I feel really fortunate that they happened to go to sort of a progressive faith community. And as Quakers, I have a lot of fondness for Quakers and the social justice values, and the peace values that are part of that. So I grew up first in the Midwest, in Richmond, Indiana, and then we lived in Nashville, and then on the island of Jamaica where my parents worked with the church there, and then Ohio, a very rural, one traffic light, Ohio town for four years, and then Chicago for junior high and high school. So we moved around to different places based on where my dad was a minister at the church. But the church communities were always my community. That’s where we would have our holidays and play games and have meals together. And it was a very, very big part of my growing up. 

SARA: And it sounds like that’s also where you really learned a lot about religion intersection with justice work and human rights and some of the volunteer work that you referenced. 

SUNU: Absolutely. The social action committee of the Quakers, those were my mentors and people like Ilene Fay in Chicago, who took me to my first protest and rallies and inspired me to re-energize a group at my high school called “Action Reaction,” a social justice group. And started an amnesty chapter. And so really became politicized in high school and went on to be active on many areas in college and law school and beyond. 

SARA: Well, your poetry also really expresses and touches on a lot of those themes of civil rights and justice and identity and all of those intersections. And I am assuming that was intentional but I’m curious how that became such a thematic center point for your work. 

SUNU: Yeah. So even when I was applying for the MFA, my question was sort of, how do you have poetry and social justice in ways that are compelling and not just sort of writing a legal brief or writing a data sheet, right? And I have this poem about law school admissions and diversity that has a title, “The Successful Candidate Must Hail from a Well-Regarded Law School.” What does that mean? Who are you closing the door to if you put that in your job postings, right? That is a much more compelling title than, “Do better with your job postings.” It’s like you take the actual language and how to learn the craft of poetry which is not just about a cause or a mission but about how language can be beautiful and can really be moving. So that particular poem, I read it at an ABA lawyers panel and somewhat a virtual event. And someone reached out to me saying, “I can’t find that poem anywhere. I really want to share it with a partner at my law firm because I think it will help him understand far better than any chart or graph.” And I said, “Oh, that’s just my poem,” – It was before I had a book – “I’m happy to email it to you.” She said, “Oh wow. I didn’t know it was your poem.” And I sent it to her and then she said she was sitting at her laptop crying because she had mistakenly thought taking pride at going it alone and just really felt a connection. And so those kinds of experiences pushed me beyond my fear of trying to be published and getting a book out there because the importance of that connection felt worth it to me. 

SARA: Wow. I think your poetry does such a beautiful job of making those really powerful connections to issues, but issues that speak really deeply to our lived experiences. And your poems are so descriptive and each tell their own story. But I also feel like the book you’ve put together kind of has its own narrative arc. You have poems about your younger self in life, about motherhood, even a couple about right in the middle of that pandemic shutdown time. Can you talk a little bit about the process of putting the whole thing together? 

SUNU: Yes. Minel, who is the head of the Unicorn Author’s Club, gave me some really good advice because I had decades of poems. It’s overwhelming. And she said, “Pick the poems you love.” Which is not a very scientific method, but it was a very good method. And so after that, I thought about it with the themes. And the heart of the book is my journey to becoming a parent, which took over ten years of my life, many, many years of fertility treatment, going through the adoption process. And then the third section is about the journey of being a parent and many of those experiences. And then, before that, as some of the earlier poems that actually focus on some more international relations. I went to the Jerusalem Program when I was in college. I majored in Peace and Global Studies so was thinking a lot about just who we are as global citizens. And so the first section of the book has a lot more of those earlier poems, as you’ve noticed. And so I think the arc is very much through my life how these experiences have impacted me. And they’re also themes that resonate across the sections as well. 

SARA: Absolutely. And your title is really powerful and compelling. I know when I looked up the book and saw the title, I didn’t need to go any further. I thought, oh yes, I’m reading this book. But can you tell us the story about what inspired it? 

SUNU: Yes. So the title is “My Dear Comrades” and it was inspired by this sort of goofy landlord. And for many years I was going through fertility treatments, very devastating emotionally and physically. And at the same time, I had a landlord in Brooklyn who would write us these emails about anything. Like the backyard light is broken. Anything he’d write us about, he’d be like, “Hey, Comrades.” And he’d go into his thing. And it just made me laugh because I didn't know what that meant to him or it just felt ridiculous. But that led to my writing a poem in that time. And again this is like 2008, 15 years, 16 years ago – I wrote a poem saying, “When I think about comrades, I think of the other people at the fertility clinic.” And that becomes a poem about those years and years of treatments and the people in that room and their hopes and dreams and also the tensions, right? As you’re saying, none of these poems just have one note. Even the poem where I’m kicked out of a taxi cab in the winter, is not a one note poem because I’m thinking about this older south Asian man who’s driving a taxi cab at 1:00 a.m. in New York City. And I know that he’s not my enemy. So in the same way, that My Dear Comrades poem talks about there’s so many children who need homes. I’m thinking about foster care. I’m thinking about children of all different ages, children with disabilities. And so how all of these things are intention and when you’re trying to think about creating a family, if you’re doing it in a thoughtful way, in a way with integrity, all of this is part of what you consider. And so that’s the title poem, My Dear Comrades is about that. Of course, now you can zoom out and that can relate to almost anything. There’s poems about survivors, about women’s rights, about worker’s rights, about all of us who are trying to push forward for the good and that we need each other. And I love that it's “Dear Comrades.” People have said it’s about the relationship between people and it’s also about the solidarity and the work. And both of those are so crucial. 

SARA: Yes. It really does capture the story that you just told about the woman who realized she didn’t have to go it alone. This is your conversation to people, you don’t have to go it alone. We can all be comrades in all of these different spaces together. 

SUNU: That’s right. And, you know, for the last few years I’ve been on the board– probably about six years – of the Transgender Law Center. And even as an ally to this community, I’ve learned so much about just living in your body and freedom and liberation and what we’re all here for. And I was so glad that when I was at the National Women’s Law Center’s legal director, they were such a leader in showing that women’s rights are trans rights and this is all one thing. And anyone who is against us, is against all of us. 

SARA: Yes.

SUNU: And that solidarity was so crucial because too often, incorrectly, “Women’s rights” is posed as something that is in opposition to LGBTQ+ rights. And that couldn’t be further from the truth. 

SARA: Right. Yeah. So I want to hear a little bit more about this part of your life and your journey. The civil rights, legal work and all of these incredible organizations that you’ve been a part of. How did you find your way into civil rights work? 

SUNU: Well, it’s so funny. I was just cleaning out the closet last night and I came across an eighth grade newsletter which was so funny because it had the students from the eighth grade graduating class, public school in Chicago and what we wanted to do when we grew up. And it actually has “Lawyer” for me, which surprised me because I don’t remember wanting to be a lawyer when I was in eighth grade. But my parents always had that in the suggestion. You can do good work and earn a living. Which now, as a parent, I think is a really nice thing to plan for your life. I understand now. And so that was always in the back of my mind. I also thought about psychology or being a gender studies professor. There were many things I was interested in and I’m still interested in many things. But I did end up going to Northeastern Law School after I finished at Earlham College and just took one year off. And it was a wonderful law school in Boston with a public interest focus and work co-op focus. And you get a lot of work experiences. So it’s really practical and useful and you build a lot of relationships. And so I ended up going into labor and employment law. That was my focus. And I worked at a labor law firm representing unions in New York and then for 15 years, I was a litigator at Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, which is a federal agency and gives me the opportunity to talk about how important civil servants are, right now at this moment where federal workers are coming under attack in so many ways. I really have to say civil servants are like the backbone of so many things that happen in this country that people take for granted. And just to skip ahead for a second, Democracy Forward, my current employer and organization, just created a Civil Service Strong website with resources and the reality of how important it is to have a federal workforce that’s unbiased and doing the work of our country. So that’s something folks should check out. 

But to back track again, I was at EEOC in New York for 15 years, a really, really wonderful job where we sued corporations that engaged in discrimination on behalf of the US Government for policy changes, for monetary damages for the victims of the discrimination. And it could be sexual harassment, racial harassment, disability, pregnancy, religion, failure to accommodate religion or so many different areas, national origin. And that was really, really interesting work. And so that’s where I have deep expertise is employment law. 

Ten years ago, I was asked to come and consider applying to be the general counsel at the D.C. office of Human Rights. That’s how we came to D.C. And after that, I went to HHS, Health and Human Services as Deputy Director of Civil Rights. And then during the last Trump administration, I couldn’t stay there because their mission just went on its head. And they were telling people to turn people away from health care and that was not something that I could really stay with. And so that’s when I joined the National Women’s Law Center as legal director. I was there for six years. And then about a year ago and a few months, I came to Democracy Forward as a senior advisor. And at Democracy Forward, they were created in the time of the first Trump Administration to bring lawsuits against that government. And they stopped and slowed down many, many harms. And so during this administration, they were helping to represent librarians against book bans and just continued to do really important work, often at the state level and in partnership with lots of groups. My focus there, in the last year, was helping on fighting the attacks on DEI and racial diversity and inclusion. And there’s a wonderful report available on our website called Safeguarding and Securing DEI Initiatives. And it outlines, even though there are these dozens and dozens of cases that our opponents brought against us in health care, education, workplace, all these fronts, the law has not changed. When university admissions changed, that did not change the law in any of these areas. But our opponents try to weaponize that decision and file all these lawsuits and file all these press statements to make people think that the law has changed in those areas. Race-specific programming can be more challenging and people should meet with lawyers if they’re working on that. But there's so many programs and initiatives that are fully legal, have nothing to do with admissions decision, that people should continue. Having said that, that culture now is obviously going to a new place where these kinds of programs are really disparaged. And so we need to be very careful about not over-complying, not pre-complying, but also assessing what the risk really is. And in some states, it is difficult because they’ve created state rules and legislation that is preventing some of this work or really creating really high barriers for this work. But if listeners are in other areas, they should really think about it, meet with lawyers, and try to find the line for themselves. But either way, this report is helpful to show the law hasn’t changed. 

SARA: Yeah.

SUNU: The agencies and their focus and what kind of issues they’re going to prioritize will change dramatically, to say the least. And I can say more about the work of Democracy Forward if you’d like as well. 

SARA: Well, I’m really curious as I listen to you talk about your career trajectory and you’ve been in all of these really significant spaces working on big issues and big initiatives, is there any one or two that really stand out for you as seminal for you? 

SUNU: Yeah. At the National Women’s Law Center I was also privileged to work on LGBTQ+ rights and protections. Because at this point, they have a director and a counsel for that work. But when I was there, they didn’t. And so I was able to do that as well. As part of that, I got to testify in the Congress in support of the Equality Act. And that is a law that’s very necessary. And it would basically ensure and cement LGBTQ+ protections in all of these spaces of our life. The listeners may know about Bostock, the Supreme Court case that provided LGBTQ+ protections for workers across the country. That is the law now. But the similar analysis applies in education and health care and housing and all these other spaces. But if we had the Equality Act, it would cement that. And that’s what we need. Because without that, these administrations will come in and deny that. Which we can expect to see in January, we can expect to see executive orders and other things that take those protections away, or try to. And so there'll be ongoing litigation about that. So it was exciting to try to be there to support the Equality Act and provide that testimony. I was also able to go to the White House for the signing of the Respect for Marriage Act, which hopefully we don’t need. But because we felt like such a risk after Dobbs and after the right to an abortion was overturned. I’m glad that we have that protection so that if a marriage is valid in one state, it’s valid in other states as well. If it’s interracial, if it’s same sex, or otherwise. 

SARA: It must feel pretty amazing to be doing this work that is so needed and so important but that is also so deeply personal for you as a queer person, as a queer married person and mom. I’m listening right now to lots of fear in the community about all that may be ahead of us in this new administration. Will you tell us a little bit about your coming out story and your experience as a queer person? 

SUNU: I think it’s rough because I think when you’re in college or if you’re in a family that you think of as A, religious, but also just conservative in certain ways, it’s hard to really imagine a world where they will accept you. And so I’m so glad that my family has come along and is so adoring of our daughter and so welcoming of us. And I don’t take that for granted any day. And I really appreciate now there are groups like Desi Rainbow specifically for south Asian families to help provide that community. And while I was growing up there were groups for South Asian queer folks like SALGA in New York, South Asian LGBTQ Association. MASALA in Boston, Tracone in different cities. PUSH in D.C. These communities were life-saving for so many people. And also knowing of people like Urvashi Vaid who was head of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force and I have a poem about – it’s not in the book, but I wrote it a couple of years ago when she passed away – about the importance of knowing that this person existed and the importance of that representation. So I would really just give so much love and appreciation to people who were out at that time and these organizers and leaders who created these community spaces over the last 30 years. 

SARA: I think it’s so interesting, so many of the guests on our podcast, we’ve been talking a lot about representation in all of the various forms that it takes, in language, in seeing yourself in art, and I think your book does a beautiful job of that, too. It gives a definite representation for people to be able to see themselves in their own experiences in a variety of different ways whether it’s parenthood and IVF and that track, or racial cultural identity, or queer identity. So it seems more and more it’s one of those things we take for granted how important it is in our human development to see ourselves. 

SUNU: That’s right. And I’ve heard from different friends the term “Micro-Inclusion” and it’s so powerful. Just on a school form just having “Parent 1, Parent 2 optional” or just having that single sex restroom and announcing at the beginning of your event where it is and that it’s available for folks. These are so important for creating comfort and inclusion, having access based on disability. All of these things are so important for creating the kind of events and culture and society that we need. 

SARA: I love that term, “Microinclusion.” It’s such a lovelier, forward-moving approach than microaggressions which many of us are starting to learn more and more about all the ways that those exist in the world. And what a great way to be able to communicate the value of saying, “Hey, your form that says Mother and Father is not so great. But this is a microinclusion, the way you can be the most inclusive is by doing these little things.” 

SUNU: Well, it’s so funny because I had “Abortion is health care” on my Peloton name. And now I have “Peloton Pride" and sometimes I’ll go into “Gospel Ride”, or “Country Ride.” People are high-fiving me and it’s not because I’m at the top of the board – trust me. It’s because I feel like they’re like, “I see you.” And I appreciate that. And I was in this “Country Ride” class, this virtual spin class and the teacher said, “Oh, I love your name. Trans kids rock. They do.” And the whole thing took five seconds, right? Another person in the class had that as their name “Transkidsrock” And the teacher called it out in a “Country Ride: and gave it love and that was that. And it was such a powerful little moment. 

SARA: That is amazing. I love that. There’s so many little moments out there that all of us can be a part of. 

SUNU: Right.

SARA: I’ve heard you talk about this before and I also heard that you went to a Pride celebration at The White House. I wonder if you’d share a little bit about that experience with us. 

SUNU: You know what, I do think that law and culture impact each other in such powerful ways. I remember hearing President Obama talk about how coming on board and learning to be more accepting and how their kids helped them to come forward. I’ve heard a lot of people talk about how their kids have brought them along whether or not the kids are queer because they’re so open and inclusive and it’s so normalized to have folks who are gender nonbinary as their classmates. And I love to see that openness developed by folks’ kids. So I because of the ways that culture and law impact on each other and growing up in a family where it didn’t always feel like acceptance was at the ready, having one of the most powerful people in the country have a rainbow on the White House or say, “You are seen. You are accepted. You’re included here,“ is really powerful. It’s really powerful for helping to change our culture. And it’s very powerful for helping one to have more of that radical self-love which is my new term that I was reminded of in a book called Your Body is Not an Apology by Sonya Renee Taylor. Such a beautiful book. And intersects with trans folks and LGBTQ identity in addition to Fat Justice and disability rights. But I just saw that book again yesterday. But having people in power support you for who you are, I found helpful to promote the radical self-love that we all need to have and that we were all born with, as she reminds us. So it was really great to be in a couple of those Pride White House celebrations in this administration to see other activists who we are in meetings with all the time and just to be in a space where you’re seen, accepted, and loved. 

SARA: I love that phrase, too, “Radical self love.” And I appreciate your reflection that that’s a hard place for us to get to. And sometimes it takes experiences of affirmation and representation from the outside world, from the big institutions in particular for us to really be able to feel like we can experience that in a deeper way. 

SUNU: And if I can just say, and that’s why it’s so challenging and troubling to now be facing another administration that will be doing the opposite and without question because they’ve announced it over and over again. They did it the first time. So shout out to my colleagues at Democracy Forward, especially the litigators but also all the people working together, to bring lawsuits against these illegal policies and changes that we know are going to be coming. And so I really appreciate everyone who’s supporting Democracy Forward and learning about our work and our past cases and work ,and also the ones that we’re considering for what’s coming ahead because these harms have been promised. And it will probably be chaotic. But some of them will stick. Some of them will be challenged. But it will be really, really at the cost of so much well-being that we could have. We could be moving forward. And instead we’re going to be battling to keep the little ground we have. And I’m glad for everyone who’s working in many, many ways to take the risk to fight back. 

SARA: It’s so needed and so appreciated. I know in our Mama Dragons community there’s just a lot of fear and uncertainty about what might come and how to prepare and support our kids in all of that. I’m curious ,how are you all at Democracy Forward talking about it? What are you seeing that you think might be the most immediate and preparing for the attacks of this new administration? 

SUNU: Thankfully my colleagues had foresight even before the election to gather partner groups together and create an infrastructure called D2025 – Democracy 2025 – to counter Project 2025. And so people have been meeting for months to make sure that there’s coverage for the issues we can foresee that will be coming ahead and make sure there’s not unnecessary duplication in the work. And so they’ve created that kind of infrastructure. And they’re also looking ahead to the specific challenges we can expect against DEI, redefining LGBTQ+ protections and many other areas that we know will probably come first. And there will also just be a long game because it’s going to be years of this. And as I was talking about making sure our civil servants feel protected and making sure that the rule of law is followed because every administration can bring the changes in policy that they want. I was at USC for 15 years through many administrations. And if it’s just focus on this versus that, that’s okay. It may not be what you want to be doing, but it’s still good work. It’s very different from an administration that’s not really following the rule of law, not following the protocols that are set up for our government. And so that’s scary. And so finding ways to challenge that, I think will be really important. And I hope people do look into Democracy 2025. There’s many resources. There’s The People’s Guide to Project 2025 that lists out the different areas we’re worried about and can foresee coming down. There’s also some really nice swag that they’ve come up with to support the good trouble and to represent and announce that you’re for the rule of law and for democracy. And that will really help support the organization too. And there’s ways to sign up to get emails about updates if there’s actions that are coming up as we get into the new year. 

SARA: That’s great. That’s excellent. I know that is of interest to a lot of folks in our community to figure out how they can get more involved and be better advocates. 

SUNU: Thank you. 

SARA: I’m thinking about young queer folks just starting out on their career paths, in college, and looking at all the opportunities but also all of the challenges they're facing. And I’m wondering if you have any advice out there for the artists, and the budding lawyers?

SUNU: One of my goals is just to keep learning. It’s really been wonderful being at Democracy Forward because people are working in all different areas of law. Many of them I don’t know, and I find that really exciting and fresh after being in certain areas for most of my legal career. So I think just keep learning is my greatest advice and take breaks. It feels overwhelming, and take a nap when you can. There’s some things where you have to power through and get through it. But then make sure to get rest on the other end because it will be a long, long four years. And it’ll go through different kinds of spurts. And it has to be a marathon and we have to work together and give each other the rest that we need as well. 

SARA: You mentioned you have a new poem that you wrote. And this sounds like a really good time – on the heels of that advice – to maybe share that poem. 

SUNU: Alright. This poem, I have a new series called Being and Belonging and this one is called “Unpacking on the L-2:”

Entering the L-2, a meeting in her headphones, the bus driver stops her.

Half paying attention she thinks it’s something about her bus fare. 

But he keeps gesturing her towards him. And so she stops

He says to her, “I hope this isn’t offensive. But are you gay?” 

She gives a complex answer involving phrases like nonbinary-presenting and queer without checking his box. 

But he correctly understands the answer as enough of a version of a yes.

And so he continues his inquiry. 

He says, it’s not that he thinks gay people shouldn’t get married. It’s just he thinks maybe they shouldn’t be parents.

And some of his gay colleagues back at the bus depot got upset at him for saying that. 

“But what do you think? You wouldn’t be mad if I said that, right?”

My spouse, often much less hot headed than me, paused and responded,

“Where do you think you got that idea? Let’s unpack that.” 

He said, “Well, I just think boys should have fathers, don’t you think?”

And my tom-boy spouse in her home with mostly just her mother and grandmother and sister came forward with evidence. 

She said, “I know a lot of young men who were raised just by their mamas and grew up to be fine men. 

I do know this to be true.” 

He seemed to pause, and she continued. “To be sure, a father might be nice to have. But with so many separated families, that’s not always the case, right?”

And so they kept chatting. 

And then she said she needed to get back to her meeting, pointing to her headphones. 

Her colleague having heard the entire exchange. 

And it was not until afterwards, as she was passing by to exit the bus, just across the street from our home filled with me relearning eighth-grade algebra and our daughter learning how to make the family whole meals from Hello Fresh did she mention this part. 

“You know, my beautiful wife and I might get a lot of things wrong. But I do think we’re good parents to our daughter. She’s fourteen. She’s in middle school now.” 

And with that, she went to give that bus driver a fist bump. 

And at that moment, at that bus stop, steps from our home, the bus driver got up from his seat. He unlatched the gate that kept him in his seat. He came forward towards her. He came forward and said, “May I give you a hug?” 

And when I tell my friends the story, they ask if my wife is some kind of prophet. 

And I beam, because I know many of us like to think we have good hearts. But this one, she must have her mother’s wild grace in addition to her own wild patience too. 

SARA: Wow. That is beautiful. 

SUNU: Thank you. 

SARA: Thank you for sharing that. I love the title of the new poems. Are they going to be a potential new collection or available anywhere? 

SUNU: This is my hope and dream to keep time even as we’re bringing lawsuits against Trump to keep some of my time to keep writing poems because I do love writing them and sharing them and being in the poetry community. So, to be continued. Let’s see. 

SARA: Oh, that’s excellent. Well, I think it speaks to the need for that kind of artistic creative expression and voice. Personally, to balance out the challenge and the difficulty of being in what will feel, no doubt, like a really intense fight, an intense four years. But also a reminder that the beauty of justice and advocacy work is in all the forms. It is poetry. It is music. And it is litigation, all of it together. 

SUNU: Absolutely. 

SARA: And we need all of it. Our hearts certainly need all of it. 

SUNU: We do. 

SARA: I’m curious if you have a favorite poem? 

SUNU: Well, I will read this poem that – after it came out in the book – a couple of different friends have used it. One used it in her sermon. One used it in her – she’s in a state legislature and she read it to them. And it’s definitely a poem that has a metaphor. And there’s a very literal meaning that comes through with parenting. But there’s also a larger meaning. So I’ll read it now. 

Teaching my Daughter to Recap the Toddler Toothpaste

Don’t push hard.

Don’t push hard.

Don’t push so hard.

No need to press it so. 

Just place it gently on top.

Let it settle into its place.

Only then, gently twist.

And not that way. 

Not that way.

The other way.

Try one way.

Try one way.

If it doesn’t work, then stop. 

Then stop.

Then stop completely.

And then try another way. 

Trust me. 

Trust me. 

You will know when it is time to stop turning.

Thank you. 

SARA: That’s great. Thank you. 

SUNU: Thank you. 

SARA: I have some questions that I like to ask all of my guests as we’re wrapping up. And the final couple of questions. And so the first is about our Mama Dragon’s name which was created out of this sense of fierceness and a fierce protection of our kids. And so I want to ask you and ask all my guests, what is it that you’re fierce about? 

SUNU: Well, I think, very aligned with the organization and its name, after I became a parent, say 13 years ago we adopted Satia which was almost two. I was much bolder. I had much better boundaries. I went to bat for her in ways far beyond what I had done for myself. And so I love that becoming a parent has helped me to be more fierce. And it’s both to protect her, to protect myself, and to protect our family. 

SARA: That’s great. That’s fantastic. I love that. And that’s inspiring, I think, for all of us in this Mama Dragons community, in this moment in particular, to remember that that fierceness isn’t just for our child but for ourselves as well. 

SUNU: Absolutely. Absolutely. 

SARA: The second question is, what is bringing you joy right now? You already touched on it, the need that we’re going to need to rest and find those other outlets and joy is one of those outlets. So what is bringing you joy right now? 

SUNU: I was really surprised. I got a holiday card from a friend, a queer family. And they had such a beautiful picture of their family. And then, on the back, they said something like “We’re going to need to come together in the new year. And here’s some organizations that we’d love for you to support.” And they listed some LGBTQ organizations. And they also listed Democracy Forward. And it was a total surprise to me. And I was like, “Oh my gosh.” And texted them. And it just created so much solidarity and connection. It’s not like I had talked to this friend very much about our work more than anybody else. I post about it. But the fact that they had noticed it and wanted to have their community support this organization as a way to support their queer family. That meant so much to me about the fact that our work had been seen. And also that we’re in it together. It just reminded me that there is a broader community of people that I don’t even know who will now learn about this work and help us in this good fight. So that really warmed my heart. 

SARA: Oh, I bet. Thank you. That’s beautiful. I’m grateful for your time and this conversation. But also just grateful for you and your work and your creative work and your legal work and the work of organizations like Democracy Forward. That, like you said, I think that opportunity for solidarity and that reminder that we’re all in this together, we’re not alone, is really helpful and really needed right now. And you bring so much to that conversation. So thank you. 

SUNU: Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for creating Mama Dragons. I’m sure it’s such a vital force of connection for these communities and thank you for all you do with this organization. 

SARA: Thank you. 

Thanks so much for joining us In the Den. Did you know that Mama Dragons offers an eLearning program called Parachute? This is an interactive learning platform where you can learn more about how to affirm, support, and celebrate the LGBTQ+ people in your life. Learn more at mamadragons.org/parachute. Or find the link in the episode show notes under links. 

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