In The Den with Mama Dragons

Queer Sex Ed

• Episode 106

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Uncomfortable as it may feel, sex education, and specifically education tailored for LGBTQ+ kids, is crucial for the overall health and wellbeing of our queer kids! Today Sara talks with special guest Emmalinda MacLean about how we provide LGBTQ+ young people with the tools they need to understand themselves, build healthy relationships, and thrive in a world that often overlooks their unique experiences. 

Special Guest: Emmalinda MacLean


Emmalinda MacLean is the Director of Curriculum & Instruction and Co-Founder of More Than Sex-Ed, whose mission is to nourish healthy development through honest conversation about sex and sexuality. She leads Our Whole Lives trainings around the country, coaching new sex educators on our inclusive, values-centered approach. Emmalinda is especially proud of her work on consent education, from the creation of the bubble-wrap game to the publication of her children’s book, Everybody, Every Body! California born and raised; UCLA graduate; horror movie fan; plant nerd. Pronouns: she/her


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SARA: Hi, everyone. Welcome to In the Den with Mama Dragons. A podcast and community to support, educate, and empower parents on the journey of raising happy and healthy LGBTQ+ humans. I’m your host, Sara Lawall. I’m a Mama Dragon myself and an advocate for our queer community. And I’m so glad to be part of this wild and wonderful parenting journey with all of you. Thanks for joining us. We’re so glad you’re here. 

Today, we are diving into a topic that can feel really tricky and complicated for parents. That’s right, we’re talking about Sex-Ed! And as uncomfortable as it sometimes may feel, Sexuality education, especially for our LGBTQ+ kids, is crucial for their overall health and well being!

How do we provide young people with the tools they need to understand themselves, build healthy relationships, and thrive in a world that often overlooks their unique experiences? To help us navigate this essential conversation, I’m so thrilled to welcome a passionate expert in the field, Emmalinda MacLean. Emmalinda is the Director of Curriculum & Instruction, and a Co-Founder of More Than Sex-Ed, a groundbreaking organization dedicated to providing inclusive, age-appropriate, and comprehensive sexuality education. With a focus on fostering self-awareness, empathy, and informed decision-making, Emmalinda’s work is all about empowering young people—particularly LGBTQ+ youth—to embrace their identities, their bodies, their relationships, their whole selves with confidence and pride.

Emmalinda, welcome to In the Den, I am so looking forward to this conversation!

EMMALINDA: Thank you so much for having me. I am so happy to be here. 

SARA: So I’m going to admit to you that I’m a little nervous for this conversation, even as someone who has been a sexuality educator herself. Because, like so many of us parents, talking about sex and sexuality with our own kids, at any age, is complicated and makes me a little bit uncomfortable. And I know that's really common. So talk to me about how do you coach parents through that discomfort about this topic? 

EMMALINDA: I think it’s important to start where people are and acknowledge that whatever feelings you’re bringing to this topic and this experience are real and valid and it’s hard for everybody. When we do parent and caregiver orientations before our sex ed programs, we always try to begin with empathy and recognize that lots of people have pain and hurt and very real trauma sometimes associated with this topic. Being an adolescent is hard and a lot of adults are still carrying hurt and pain from that time in their lives. And we always want to recognize that that’s okay, but that kids pick up on what adults are uncomfortable talking about. And that messages of shame or guilt can come through in really subtle ways. And the best thing that you can do for a young person is try and remove as much of that shame as possible and make it something that it’s okay to talk about. And you can own how it feels for you. That’s okay, too. 

SARA: Oh, that’s helpful. 

EMMALINDA: It’s okay to be honest if it feels a little awkward. We usually start our classes with youth by recognizing that this might feel awkward and embarrassing and that’s totally normal and okay. 

SARA: That’s great. And as you’re talking, our culture is not very good at talking about this subject and lots of shame and stigma around all kinds of topics related to sex and sexuality. So I’m curious, how did you get into all of this? 

EMMALINDA: I feel very lucky that I was raised by very progressive and affirming, positive, loving, caring parents. And they raised me in the Unitarian Universalist church – something that you and I share. And so I was a participant in the “Our Whole Lives” Sexuality education program as a middle-schooler, which is a curriculum developed by the Unitarian Universalist Association and the United Church of Christ, jointly, to offer sex ed that was grounded in those religious organizations’ values of justice and inclusion, respect for all people, knowing that our bodies are good and that healthy relationship are good, and respecting different kinds of people. And I became, in high school, many of my friends’ “Go To” friend for sex questions. And so I think that that seed was planted pretty young. 

SARA: And you became the expert, I imagine, among your friends? 

EMMALINDA: As much as a 17-year-old can be. I did my best. 

SARA: But the great thing is, you had appropriate, accurate information unlike maybe some of our kids’ friends maybe don’t always have it quite right. 

EMMALINDA: That’s a concern we hear from parents sometimes is “If my kid gets comprehensive sex ed, are they going to go out on the playground and tell all the other kids what they learned!” And I kind of hope that they do because somebody out there on that playground outta have good intel. 

SARA: Indeed. 

EMMALINDA: They’re going to talk about it. 

SARA: They are. They are. They already are, so we may as well arm them with the accurate information. Before we dive into the nitty gritty about sexuality education and queer-friendly sex ed, I want to start by having you kind of lay the groundwork for us and share with us exactly what do we mean by “sexuality” and by “comprehensive sexuality education”? 

EMMALINDA: I am so glad you asked. This is a speech I have really dialed in at this point. We use a model called “The Circles of Sexuality”. It’s part of the “Our Whole Lives” curriculum. It was developed in the early 1980’s as a framework for comprehensive sex ed and a broader definition of sexuality than most people usually think of when they hear the term. It’s a venn diagram. If you Google “Circles of Sexuality” you can definitely find it. Many people hear “Sex Ed” and they think of the biology of anatomy and human reproductive systems, which is important. We do want everyone to understand where babies come from and how to put a condom on a banana. But those are not everything. Another topic that people may think of when they think of hear “Sexuality”, is sexual attraction or orientation. And sexual identity is another one of our five circles, or components, of human sexuality. So experiences of gender and sexual orientation, recognizing that all of those things exist on a spectrum. Nature does not have edges. That’s a line I use a lot. Everything is a spectrum. Nothing’s a binary. Nature has no edges. 

SARA: I love that.

EMMALINDA: Humans put things in categories. Nature goes, “Look what I made.” 

SARA: I love that. That’s fantastic. I’m going to use that. 

EMMALINDA: Please do. So we have our biology component, our identity component. Another huge area is healthy relationship skills, communication skills, being able to speak up for yourself, set boundaries, apologizing well is a skill that entirely too many adults lack. And that’s not just dating relationships. That’s friendships, that’s family, that’s being real nice to the cashier at Trader Joe’s, all of the human interactions that invite the opportunity for enrichment and a possibility for conflict. 

The last two components are sensuality, the relationship we all have with our own body and the sensory experiences that feel good to you, or don’t, and learning how to enjoy the good feelings that your body is capable of giving you and feel good about the body that you live in. This is the only body you ever get and we believe that everyone deserves to enjoy it and feel good in it. And that relates to body image and media messages and feelings of attractiveness. 

And our last component is sexualization which is where we look at the intersection of sex and power and how people use messages and ideas about all of those other areas – bodies, identities, relationships, feelings – to pressure or influence or tease. We see this in advertisements that use sexy images to sell products. And we see this in teasing and bullying about sexual identities. We see it in flirting. We see it in bystander intervention skills. There are positive uses of power all over. This is not “The Bad” circle. But we also want to recognize how abuses of sexuality and abuses of power can lead to life-long harms. And we want students to be literate in recognizing how people use ideas about sex and sexuality. And we’re always encouraging students to think about those areas of knowledge through the lens of their own values. We want to recognize that education cannot be values-free. The idea that teachers should just teach and not bring values into the classroom is fake and doesn’t work. Everything is about values. 

SARA: Thank you for that whole picture of the circles of sexuality, which is just all-encompassing of our whole lives, hence the name of that great curriculum. And also reminds me that the sex ed that my kids are getting in school, what little of it there is, isn’t comprehensive. It’s a great start. It scratches the surface. I will always opt in as a parent unless it’s abstinence-only sex ed. But it’s not enough. And every time I hear that description I think, “Yes. Those are all the places and spaces that I want my kids to learn how to become good humans and comfortable with their own selves.” Can you talk about what some of the guiding values are of comprehensive sex ed, or the programs that you use in your work in More than Sex Ed? 

EMMALINDA: Yes. We primarily draw from the “Our Whole Lives” curriculum and the recognition that education cannot be values-free is an important guiding principle for us. We want to be transparent with families about what our organization's values are and what beliefs and assumptions are baked into the curriculum that we are bringing to their school. So we value every student feeling good about themselves, knowing that they have self-worth and inherent dignity. We affirm the importance of everyone feeling good about themselves no matter what. And there are sometimes where we will make a decision about what we don’t say in class because that could be really scary or feel a little too shaming, even if it is medically accurate, technically, making sure that students in the class leave feeling good about themselves might be more important than pointing out that in rare cases, this thing might happen to someone. We make those kinds of judgement calls all the time. We also believe deeply that knowledge is helpful, not harmful. And everyone deserves the knowledge, the tools, and the resources to make choices that will keep their bodies safer and healthier. And that includes information about sexual health and safety. And there is some concern about age-appropriateness that gets built into that. But we want students to actually understand what behaviors have risks associated with them. We value learning to take responsibility for your choices and helping young people learn how to be accountable in relationships, to be responsible for the decisions that they make, and again, being able to apologize when they’re wrong. I have learned a lot about being able to admit when I am wrong. We’re never going to be perfect. So it pays to be good at apologizing. And recognizing the many ways that inequality and injustice affect people’s ability to feel good about themselves, to access health care, and to have healthy relationships is an important value as well if we are not acknowledging different forms of oppression and injustice including racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism. If we are not acknowledging the impact that those have on health and relationships, we are missing a significant component of how sexuality functions in society. 

SARA: That’s so good. Thank you. I know that in your work and in the curriculum that you use, there’s very careful attention paid to age-appropriate developmental pieces of all that you just said. But I also know that a lot of parents tend to come into this with the desire, but also with that trepidation like “It’s too much. My child’s not ready. It’s too much information.” How do you work with parents when you hear that? 

EMMALINDA: We do hear “Too much, too soon” a lot. And the thing that we want to remind parents is that there are a lot of very graphic and explicit messages and ideas about sex and bodies and sexuality that are coming at kids from lots of different media outlets. It doesn’t even have to be from internet pornography, which is a whole other topic. And the average age that a young person in America sees online porn for the first time is about 11 and a half years old. So there are a lot of parents who are not realistic about what their child has already seen and been exposed to. And we believe that classes that give accurate information grounded in those values of self-worth and respect and responsibility and justice is a powerful antidote to some of those much more toxic and harmful, dehumanizing images and ideas that they see on bus bench ads and billboards just driving down the street. 

SARA: That’s great. Thanks. I know that’s just a sort of common response oftentimes out of that place and space that many of us as parents got nowhere anywhere near any of that, or very little or inaccurate, or no sex-ed at all. And so it does feel overwhelming to hear when it’s coming from this comprehensive place. 

EMMALINDA: Absolutely. And I understand and empathize with that. Something that is important in how we frame and set up and introduce our classes is that we absolutely do not promise that this is going to be comfortable. I recognize and expect that there are lots of people who may have very uncomfortable experiences with this topic in these classes, including parents in parent/caregiver orientation sessions. We don’t ever use the term, “Safe Space” when we are setting up a conversation. And that’s something that’s important to me. I want to encourage people to recognize the difference between being uncomfortable and being unsafe. But I realize that someone’s emotional reaction to something is beyond my control. And I also think that it is kind of insulting to say to the school shooting generation that you are in a safe space at school. It’s absolutely not something that is within our power to promise. And that is hard on everyone’s heart, I know. 

SARA: Yeah. That’s hard to hear. And I appreciate it. I appreciate the honesty there, that is really clear for people about what they’re entering into. Let’s talk a little bit now, I want to shift a little bit to the importance of LGBT inclusion in sexuality education because that is certainly a really hot topic now culturally, across the spectrum. Not just in sex ed, but the existence of queer life anywhere, in a book, on screen, in a school. And we’re watching this play out in our culture in really concerning ways. We know our schools are all over the place when it comes to sex ed and most of them do a really poor job at it. It’s riddled with queer- and trans-phobia that feels like it’s on the rise right now. So can you share with us why it's so essential to have LGBTQ+ inclusion in sex ed, not just for our queer kids but for all kids? 

EMMALINDA: The short answer is because queer people exist and have always existed. This is not a new thing. You know that. I know that. And all people are equally deserving of respect. That is something that we say frequently in classes. And if we are erasing a whole group of people, we are doing a disservice to those students and everyone else who thinks that they’re getting an accurate image of the scope of natural human sexual diversity. We are a science class and this is what the scientific community knows to be true. There are some outliers who manage to get published somewhere. But the fact is, the science is really clear, queer people exist, diversity is natural. 

SARA: Nature has no edges. I love that. 

EMMALINDA: Nature has no edges. The most natural thing in the world is difference. 

SARA: So what do you experience as some of the common misconceptions about sex ed – if you want to go in general – but also specifically when it comes to queer topics and LGBTQ+ identity? 

EMMALINDA: A broad fear that many parents have is that talking about it encourages kids to try it. And in fact, we’ve got 30 years of research on comprehensive sex ed delaying sexual debut. And more specifically, the fear that talking about LGBTQ identities will turn kids queer and trans. And we also know that that’s not how any of that works. But we do know that representation matters and that when young people feel like they are in a community and an environment where it is safe to explore, to ask questions, to be curious about themselves, to wonder and express their own identity how they really see and feel, they’re more likely to be able to. And that’s a beautiful thing. And it’s a subtle distinction that may be lost on some people who are looking for a reason to be angry and hostile to this kind of education. But it doesn’t turn anyone into anything that they were not already inside. But it creates an environment where they may feel safe enough to be honest about it. 

SARA: Do you have a good story you can share or a moment in your work that reinforces this importance of comprehensive sex ed particularly for queer youth?

 EMMALINDA: There are so many beautiful moments that I am so deeply honored to have had the opportunity to witness and help facilitate. So we no longer, and it is not considered best practices in sex ed, to separate boys and girls, for lots of reasons. 

SARA: Oh, say a little bit about that. 

EMMALINDA: We will recognize there are trans, nonbinary, and possibly intersex kids in every school that we teach at. And we respect every kid’s right to privacy. We never make anybody say or do anything in our classes that they don’t feel comfortable saying or doing. You can participate in purely hypothetical terms in sex ed. And so asking students to disclose what they have in their pants is not respecting their right to privacy. We want everybody to get all the information. We also know from research that having peers of different genders and different sets of body parts in the class together and getting to hear your peers' questions and comments and participation is valuable for reducing gender stereotypes and building empathy. And it demystifies it a little bit. You don’t have this idea that those people are getting some kind of secret intel that we’re not allowed to have because we don’t have those body parts. It just helps demystify if for everybody. And there’s some research at that shows that this also is protective against sexual violence in their future. 

SARA: Oh, that’s great. 

EMMALINDA: However, we, many years ago – because we’ve been on a journey of learning and modifying, and adapting – we did frequently use to have schools that would ask us to do separate groups for the puberty lesson. And I can understand and empathize with you’re an 11 or a 12 year old girl who is learning about periods and has a lot of questions about that and you don’t want to ask those questions in front of people in your class who don’t have periods. That is an uncomfortable, though not unsafe, experience. And that’s a good example of making that distinction. One school, parents had expressed that it was important to them that their kids have some more small group discussion time for those kinds of puberty-related sensitive questions. And as an organization, it was important to us that we communicate to the school why we wanted to be really sensitive to being trans-inclusive in this process. So what we did was we had my male co-teacher say, he is going to go to this breakout room space and lead a conversation and answer questions about penises and everything that goes along with that. And I, a cisgender woman, am going to stay in this classroom and I’m going to lead a conversation about having a body with a vagina and having periods and everything that goes along with that. And students, you choose which group you want to go to, what will be more relevant and helpful for you. And we’re figuring it out. We’re shuffling out of the room. And there were three young people who – like to use the term alleged or assumed boys because we don’t want to make assumptions about gender, but, you know sometimes you can tell – who stayed in the room for the vagina conversation. And I just repeated the instructions a few times. And some of the students in the room were kind of looking at each other and looking a little uncomfortable. And I said, “Would it help if we agreed that anybody in here can stay and listen, but only people who have the body parts that we’re talking about are going to participate in this discussion?” And one of the assumed girls said, “I don’t care if anybody wants to ask questions.” And everybody else was like, “Yeah. That’s fine.” And later I found out that one of those three masculine-presenting young people had been doing some real identity questioning and the other two kids that also stayed were that young person’s good friends who didn’t want their friend to be alone in there. And they all stayed in solidarity. And it was fine. It was beautiful. The kids are alright. They really are. And it was a difficult position to be in with the school and trying to meet parents' requests. And I hope I didn’t screw it up too badly, but those kids were looking out for each other and it was one of the most beautiful things I’ve ever seen. 

SARA: That’s incredible. That’s a beautiful story. And I love the reframe of small groups because it invites some intimacy to really kind of ask questions in a different way in a different context, but without the cultural gender separation. Thanks for sharing that. That was really beautiful. That just really got me. I’ve got to compose myself now. 

EMMALINDA: I will add that it’s often interesting in parent workshops. We get questions in the chat. We don’t do parent workshops in person anymore because, unfortunately, we’ve had some real hostile reactions. And we only do them on Zoom now to protect the safety of our team. And there’s a lot of people who will be a lot bolder when they have the anonymity of not turning their camera on on zoom and putting in questions in the chat. But sometimes the same question could be coming from a parent who is transphobic and doesn’t want their kid to hear that it’s okay to be queer. Or the exact same question could be from a parent of a trans kid who is very concerned that our class is affirming and inclusive of their child’s experience. And that’s always funny. And we try and make sure that we are as gentle and neutral as possible in the way that we respond to those types of questions. 

SARA: That’s wonderful. Tell me a little bit more about the overall approach to teaching kids of all ages, young ones too, about concepts like gender identity and sexual orientation in an age appropriate way? You know, I think as parents of queer kids, and many of our Mama Dragons community are across the spectrum of where they are in terms of their own child’s coming out and their own understanding and in their own communication with their family members and friends and community, and so there’s a lot to learn when you’re in that space. And there’s a lot of struggle in figuring out how to talk about it and understanding it. So can you break that down a little bit. That was three questions all in one, but give it a shot. 

EMMALINDA: All good. Something that we say frequently is that there is nothing age-inappropriate about knowing that different kinds of people exist. There is no age at which that is too young for those concepts. And we do TK and Kindergarten classes sometimes, not as often. But they’re so fun when we get to do them. And those kids are adorable. And we say that there are boys and girls and people who are in between or outside those genders. There are people who aren’t either. We had an adorable moment in a first-grade class, I want to say, where we introduced that concept. There are people who aren’t a boy or a girl, and a kid pushed back on it and said, “But there are only boys and girls. Everybody’s a boy or a girl.” And my co-teacher smiled and said, “A lot of people think that. But actually, there are people who aren’t either.” And this first-grader said, “Oh, I didn’t know that.” Because it really can be that easy. And there are many beautiful children’s books on the subject. And More Than Sex Ed has a recommended book list on our website and I’m sure y’all are sharing those kind of book recommendations all the time. 

SARA: Yes. But we’ll make sure to link it in the show notes so folks can look at that. Thanks. 

EMMALINDA: And people want lots of different kinds of love. We have a complex human graphic that is our original version of the Genderbread Person or the Gender Unicorn. There are lots of versions of this conceptual model. We have one that’s our original design. And I turned it into a stretch so we can do it with our bodies. And we’ll do it with little kids. We stand up, we wave our arms over our heads and we say, “There are labels that other people put on us. Sometimes even before we’re born like It’s a boy or It’s a girl. But – you put your hands on your head and you roll your neck very gently – you are the only person who knows what it feels like inside your head. So you are the world-class expert on you. And nobody else gets to tell you whether or not those labels are true for you. And you get to decide how you get to express or share yourself with the world. And people have different ways they want to give and receive love. People get different kinds of excited feelings.” We separate out romantic orientation from sexual orientation. And with very young kids we say “loving feelings” and “excited feelings”. 

SARA: That’s wonderful. 

EMMALINDA: Thank you. 

SARA: I like the embodied practice in there too. And it’s such an important piece of identity, I think, to help people understand and remember all of the different ways that we receive information about who we are, express who we are, identify who we are, that it isn’t just one thing. 

EMMALINDA: We had a really lovely conversation separating out gender identity from gender expression and that someone’s personal style choices might or might not tell us about who they are on the inside. And also talking about gender roles and stereotypes and how they can do harm. And at that younger elementary age, there can often be a strong desire to “police” their peers. The internalizing messages about correct expressions of gender comes out as telling other kids what they can and cannot do. And so we have a game where we have a bunch of different toys and we ask the class to help us sort whether this is a toy for boys, for girls, or for everyone. Spoiler alert: All toys are for everyone. But we had a student who was really pushing back on the idea that a princess dress and tiara could be for everyone. And it’s also understandable developmentally. A kid that age is just starting to differentiate myself from other people. And so we said, “If you’re telling us that you would never want to play dress up in a princess dress, that’s OK. Is that what we’re hearing you say?” And he was like, “Yeah. No way.” “OK. It would actually be really mean for me to tell you you had to wear a princess dress if you didn’t want to, right?” “Yeah.” “So would it also be mean for me to tell someone else that they couldn’t wear this princess dress and tiara if they did want to?” And he chewed on that for quite a while. And finally he said, “Yeah. Okay.” “So can we all agree that princess dresses and tiaras are for everyone who wants to?” And he came around to that. 

SARA: That’s a great example. And thank you because you’ve also given us a way to kind of model a conversation around that with anybody at any age, really, who struggles. Because there're so many folks who really struggle still in that binary and cultural roles. And we’re influenced by culture. We’re influenced by religion. And it’s really hard to separate, extricate ourselves, from those spaces and places even when we want to. I know I share this with my youth all the time, “I talk a good game, but I still struggle in my own life from extricating myself from the societal ideas of what’s appropriate and acceptable and genderized versus my own.” 

EMMALINDA: And I think that is something really valuable to keep in mind: to hold empathy for adults who are opposed or hostile to trans inclusion in sex ed or schools generally, is to remember that for many adults, the way that they learned how to perform their gender correctly, included literal violence. That there are a lot of people who had it literally beaten into them that this is the acceptable way to present your gender and it can be retraumatizing to see young people who get to avoid that type of abuse and harm. 

SARA: That’s really hard to hear and very true. Unfortunately there’s probably too many folks in our community that carry some of that story. 

EMMALINDA: And I will add that it’s okay if you personally – you listener, whoever – aren’t ready to extend that kind of empathy. I think that everyone has to decide where they’re willing to give forgiveness and grace or not. And I am someone in my role who tries to make sure that I am extending that empathy and grace because I feel like I can. And I know not everybody can. 

SARA: Right. So share with us a little bit about the interplay between inclusive sexuality education and impacts around bullying and stigma and mental health challenges? 

EMMALINDA: We have a lot of research that shows that schools that are inclusive and affirming for LGBTQ youth are also safer for cisgender and heterosexual students, which is pretty amazing. Schools that have a GSA, Gay Straight Alliance, is what it was called when I was the president of my high school’s GSA. And I think they’re usually Gender and Sexuality Alliance now, or Queer club, Pride Club, Rainbow Club. Schools that have those organization on campus see a reduction in suicide attempts among heterosexual boys who have never set foot in that club’s meeting room ever. 

SARA: I have never heard that . That’s incredible. 

EMMALINDA: Just the existence of that group on campus helps other students on that campus feel safer. We often do faculty education for our client schools. And something that we emphasize to teachers is that being visibly accepting, affirming, supportive, if that’s just putting a rainbow flag up in your classroom somewhere or having it on your lanyard or a sticker on your water bottle, can send a signal to students who are looking for a safe adult that they can trust. And we heard from a teacher at a school who really took that to heart after our faculty workshop, and got a rainbow flag and put it up in their room. And a couple of weeks later, they had a little cluster of students who would come and eat lunch in their room and trade pokemon cards and hang out because they knew that this teacher’s room was a space where they knew there was an adult looking out for them. 

SARA: I appreciate that so much because I know that’s a real struggle here where I live. I just want to clarify, you are in California where the climate and invitation around these kinds of conversations and in our public schools is very, very different than in some very conservative red states, like the one that I live in, where school districts are passing policies around putting up anything affirming and likening it to critical race theory and DEI and all that stuff that everyone’s trying to push out of life in general. But I appreciate you clarified the personal ways that you can offer that recognition to your students in your water bottle and your lanyard. And that it makes a difference no matter how big or small. On that topic, recognizing that there are families who are in states who are not inviting organizations like yours to come teach sex ed in the public schools. What can parents do? What are some of the tools and resources you’d suggest for us to help find or talk about or create those inclusive sexuality education spaces for our kids? 

EMMALINDA: Well, I have to give flowers to the many wonderful Unitarian Universalist and United Church of Christ congregations who are offering Our Whole Lives programs to students. There are lots of places where parents know that they’re not going to get it in the schools and they want their kids to have that affirming, values-based, respect centered sex ed. And I encourage you to get in touch with your local UU or UCC church and find out if it’s happening there. It might not be. It often takes a couple of really dedicated parents willing to knock on doors and send some emails around to make it happen. And those kinds of volunteers are a godsend and miracle makers and we love them. I always encourage parents to get involved in school board conversations even if you are not going to change the policy, it is so important that they hear from parents in the community who know that this is literally life-saving for LGBTQ youth. And as we just heard, from all kinds of youth. The people who don’t want queer youth to have good sex ed are in the minority. They’re just a really loud minority. They’re a really loud minority. And being that voice in the room who speaks up for, “No. This is good and I want my kids to have it.” Has an impact. It makes a difference. 

SARA: And does your organization, More than Sex Ed, offer some – you mentioned online parent classes for parents – do you offer some online sex ed for young people too? 

EMMALINDA: We did virtual sex ed open enrollment classes in 2020 and 2021 when everything was all online. We have not brought those classes back recently. It just has not been the best way for us to spend our resources as an organization. But we do have open-enrollment parent education sessions that you can find more about through our website. We call it More Than The Talk. 

SARA: More Than The Talk. So that’s great. So that’s one really clear way that parents could go get some information and then just expand those conversations in their own homes with their own kids. 

EMMALINDA: Absolutely. We always emphasize that a kid learning about sex is not one, “The Talk”. If you think that’s it’s one conversation, you’re doing it wrong. 

SARA: I’m doing it wrong. 

EMMALINDA: There are so many conversations to have. And every time you check in, share a little bit, you are helping to prop open that door to open communication that will keep a kid safe so that they know that they can come to you the next time something really hard and scary comes up. 

SARA: Yeah. And so it doesn’t need to be a long talk. I’m just selfishly thinking of my own circumstances. It can be small moments that, all strung together, help bring your child into the conversation. 

EMMALINDA: Yeah. Resisting the urge to jump to a lecture when given the opportunity is hard. And whenever possible, if you can just sh-, sh-, sh-, shut your mouth and listen, just listen. Kids shut down if they feel like this adult is “Just waiting for the chance to lecture me.”

SARA: Yeah. 

EMMALINDA: And if you want them to keep opening up to you, shut your mouth. It’s so hard. It’s so hard. 

SARA: It is so hard. It is so hard. We just replayed an episode recently around what to do when your kid comes out. And I feel like the advice is very similar. It’s like, less talking, more listening and more creating the spaces to let your kids know you are listening, you’re there, and they can do the talking. And that’s hard. It’s hard to do. I mean, I’ll name it. It’s hard. 

EMMALINDA: Unsolicited advice feels like criticism and judgement. 

SARA: Yeah. That’s really helpful. So these have been some really helpful pieces of advice. But I’m going to ask if you have any more. If you could share one piece of advice, beyond what you’ve already shared, with our audience about raising or supporting LGBTQ youth, what would it be? 

EMMALINDA: I think this is advice for all parents on the subject of sex ed: not saying anything says a lot. And there can often be fear, trauma, anxiety, discomfort around the subject. And it is very understandable to want to avoid it. And young people are smart enough to notice if an adult is avoiding a topic. And it sends the message that this is not an adult that you can talk to about this, that this is something to be embarrassed of or afraid of, and that does not set kids up to be safe. That leaves them in greater danger. And I think that it doesn’t have to be a whole lecture. It can be acknowledging that “Wow, that billboard sure has a lot of skin showing on that model to advertise boots. I wonder why that is?: Noticing, making it clear that this is part of the water that we swim in as a culture and sharing your values explicitly about that. When adults talk to kids about their values, those kids are more likely to reflect those values later in life. It feels corny and it actually works. And connecting it to what you believe as a person, what your family’s beliefs and values are. Big believer in reclaiming the concept of Family Values. Not saying anything says a lot. 

SARA: Not saying anything says a lot. What’s been some of the most rewarding aspects of your work? You’ve been doing this work for a really long time now. What keeps you motivated? 

EMMALINDA: I love teaching sex ed and I feel pretty confident that I can do this for the rest of my life and never get bored. The kids are so funny. Teenagers are hilarious. They’re absolutely delightful. And I learn new stuff all the time. They ask the weirdest questions and it always cracks me up when a fifth grader or a seventh grader comes into the room on day one of classes and says, “Oh, I already know all of this.” Like, “Oh really? Because I have been teaching sex ed for 12 years and I learn new stuff on a weekly basis.” It is endlessly fascinating and occasionally – if I feel like the rapport is good – I will challenge a kid to ask me a question that you don’t already know and, “I dare you to ask me something that I don’t know the answer to.” It’s always delightful and fascinating. 

SARA: Have they ever been successful? Have you ever gotten a question you don’t know the answer to? 

EMMALINDA: Oh, plenty of times. Yeah. And then I get to learn something new and it’s fun and I get to model that it’s okay not to know, and it’s always a journey of learning. But I will say that I am in this work, I got into this work, and I am staying in this work because I truly believe that, at its best, human sexuality is one of the great aspects of being alive. And not just having sex, but having good relationships and feeling good about yourself and feeling grounded in who you are and confident that you are showing up in your relationships the way you want to and enjoying the way that you move through the world. And, at its worst, abuses of sexuality can lead to some of the most horrifying experiences humans have ever known. And I believe profoundly that this work brings more joy and less suffering to the world and that’s what I’m here for. 

SARA: Absolutely. Yes. That’s beautiful. It really is about understanding yourself and living the fullest self that’s available to you in the world. I have found that myself in this work. If you could recommend a couple of resources, I know you have a resource page on your website and we’ll make sure to link to that, but if there was a book or two or a website or two that you think our just people have to know about before we close out this conversation, what would that be? 

EMMALINDA: For young, young kids, can’t say enough good things about the books by Cory Silverberg and Fiona Smyth called What Makes A Baby, and Sex Is A Funny Word. They’re very gender inclusive and all kinds of families, all kinds of kids representing the beautiful spectrum of identities in a beautiful way. For adults, this isn’t necessarily an everyone-should-read-it book. But I just finished Eve by Cat Bohannon which is fascinating and amazing. It’s evolutionary biology. And it is trans-inclusive. She does use the language “Women, Women’s body, the female body.” But she also pulls from some really interesting research on trans health care to talk about how the ovulating reproductive system that has the capacity to make new human beings drove the entire scope 200 million years of evolution. Fascinating if you are that kind of science nerd. Transgender School is a great organization started by a mother/daughter team. They have a Facebook and website. And they do a lot of excellent education similar to the Mama Dragons Den on parents of trans youth. 

SARA: That’s great. Is there still a website out there or perhaps Planned Parenthood has one that is a 24-hour question either text or on their website where you can text your question or write your question and you get an answer? 

EMMALINDA: Someone was just telling me about this. I think there’s one called OkaySo. And I would have to look that up. 

SARA: I’m going to look that up and see if we can link to that because I happen to remember one. Maybe it was Sex Etc. But similar to a crisis hotline, you could go on, you could type whatever your question was from wherever you were. So this is great where resources might be less available to folks. 

EMMALINDA: Online resources, also shout out to Scarleteen which has a lot of excellent sex and relationship advice for teens and young adults, very queer inclusive and affirming. And more than just the health aspects, but a lot of sensitive relationship challenges, coming out to parents, a valuable resource for young people. 

SARA: These are really helpful. Thank you very much. This has been a wonderful conversation. Thank you so much for being part of it. But I have a couple of parting questions for you. These are the final questions that I like to ask all of my guests because it helps us know a little bit more about you. And the first question is about fierceness. The Mama Dragons name came about out of this sense of fierceness and fierce protection for our queer kids. So I like to ask my guests, what are you fierce about? 

EMMALINDA: I love this question. It’s not a word that I would typically use to describe myself. And I think that I have done well in this line of work because I am quite gentle and diplomatic when I need to be. I am a little bit of a compulsive people-pleaser. And it is weird that I went into such a very controversial line of work for someone who really just wants everybody to like me. But I will say that I think I have gotten much fiercer about protecting my boundaries and my own time. And I think that being able to say, “No. I am not available to you. I need to take this time for myself.” has been incredibly valuable and nourishing to me. And that is something that I have learned with great difficulty over many years. 

SARA: Good answer. That’s always helpful. We learn so much about ourselves too in the answers our guests give. They’re such great personal reminders. So the last question I have for you, especially in this moment in these times in this space which feels so very fraught and uncertain and anxious, what is bringing you joy right now? 

EMMALINDA: I have some friends coming over tonight to light Hanukkah Candles and make Latkes. And I am very excited for that. I think that nurturing our relationships is one of the most important things that anybody can do when things are scary and hard and uncertain. And sharing some tasty food and lighting some candles and having people I love in my home is a sacred act to me. And I’m really looking forward to that. 

SARA: That’s beautiful. Thank you. Thank you again for your time. Thank you for this conversation. Parents, we’ll put all of the links that Emmalinda mentioned including links to the organization More Than Sex Ed, so that you can explore on your own. But thank you for just reaffirming for us the value and import of having these conversations with our kids and with others. 

EMMALINDA: Thank you so much for having me. This was so much fun. 

SARA: Thanks so much for joining us here In The Den. Did you know that Mama Dragons also offers an eLearning program called Parachute? This is an interactive learning platform where you can learn more about how to affirm, support, and celebrate the LGBTQ+ people in your life. Learn more at mamadragons.org/parachute. Or find the link in the episode show notes under links. 

If you enjoyed this episode, we hope you’ll take a moment to tell your friends and leave us a positive rating and review wherever it is you listen. Good reviews make us more visible and help us reach more folks who could benefit from being part of this community. And if you’d like to help Mama Dragons in our mission to support, educate, and empower the parents of LGBTQ+ children, please donate at mamadragons.org or click the donate link in the show notes. For more information on Mama Dragons and the podcast, you can follow us on Instagram or Facebook or visit our website, mamadragons.org. 

 



People on this episode

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Sara LaWall

Host
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Jen Blair

Producer