In The Den with Mama Dragons

Reclaiming Faith with the TikTok Pastor

• Episode 113

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For many in our Mama Dragons community—and for queer folks in general—it can be hard to imagine a place for themselves within religion, and Christianity specifically, especially for those who have been shunned or hurt by their religious communities. Many have chosen to leave religion behind altogether, because it felt impossible to reconcile the theology you were taught with the deep love and support you feel for your queer kids. This week, In the Den, Sara visits with special guest Reverend Brandan Robertson about what it means to reclaim faith, challenge exclusionary narratives, and build a church that fully embraces authenticity, love, and belonging.


Special Guest: Reverend Brandan Robertson


Rev. Brandan Robertson is a noted author, activist, and public theologian, dedicated to exploring the intersections of spirituality, sexuality, and social justice. He serves as the Pastor of Sunnyside Reformed Church in New York City and is the founder and Executive Director of The Devout Foundation. Known as the "TikTok Pastor," Robertson's inclusive theological content reaches over 250,000 followers and has garnered 6 million views. He has authored 23 books, including the INDIES Book of the Year finalist True Inclusion. His work has been featured in TIME Magazine, CNN, and The Washington Post. Robertson is a sought-after speaker who regularly presents at prestigious platforms like The White House and Oxford University, continuing to inspire and challenge audiences around the world. Robertson acquired a Bachelor of Arts in Pastoral Ministry and Biblical Studies from Moody Bible Institute, an Master of Theological Study from Iliff School of Theology, and a Master of Arts in Political Science and Public Administration from Eastern Illinois University. He's presently pursuing a PhD in Biblical Studies at Drew University. He currently resides in New York City.


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SARA: Hi everyone. Welcome to In the Den with Mama Dragons. A podcast and community to support, educate, and empower parents on the journey of raising happy and healthy LGBTQ+ humans. I’m your host, Sara LaWall. I’m a Mama Dragon myself and an advocate for our queer community. And I’m so glad to be part of this wild and wonderful parenting journey with all of you. Thanks for joining us. We’re so glad you’re here.

For many in our Mama Dragons community, and for queer folks in general, it can be hard to imagine a place for themselves within religion, and within Christianity specifically, particularly for those who have been hurt or shunned by prior religious communities. I know many of you in the Mama Dragons community have chosen to leave religion behind altogether because it felt impossible to reconcile this theology you were taught with the deep love and support you felt for your queer kids. 

And today’s guest has lived that exact experience, but in his deconstruction he began to ask the question, “What if faith and queerness weren’t at odds? What if a vibrant, affirming Christian life was not only possible for queer folks and their families, but also deeply sacred?” I’m so thrilled today to welcome our guest, Brandan Robertson. Brandan’s a pastor, an author, and a thought leader at the forefront of LGBTQ+ inclusion in Christian spaces. And we’re going to have this deep conversation together and explore what it means to reclaim faith, to challenge exclusionary narratives, and build a church that fully embraces authenticity, love, and belonging. Brandan, I am so excited to welcome you to In the Den!

 Brandan: Thank you so much. It’s such an honor to be here. And Thank you all, for all the good work that all that everyone associated with this has been doing. I’ve followed for years and it’s just great to connect.

SARA: Oh, that’s great to hear. Your story is so fascinating. You were once an up-and-coming superstar pastor in the Evangelical world, like big trajectory ahead of you. And now you’ve done a complete 180. You’re a progressive Christian pastor focusing on queer theology among other progressive issues. What happened?

Brandan: That's a great question.

SARA: And I’m also curious, were you raised in the Evangelical tradition?

Brandan: Yeah. So I actually grew up non-religious. I grew up in a trailer park in Maryland. And so there was a general kind-of conservative-ish ethos of the community. And we probably all would’ve said we were Catholic or Christian or something like that. But no explicit religion growing up. But I began going to a Fundamentalist Baptist church with my neighbors when I was 12. And it was there that I had a conversion experience, an encounter with what I understood to be Jesus. And it really did change my young life. I struggled a lot with depression and anxiety. I grew up in an abusive household. And so there were lots of things going on in my life at that time. And the church became a place of solace and healing and hope. And within a few years, I ended up leaving that church and ending at an Evangelical Megachurch. And as the young, zealous 15-year-old kid, who felt called to be a pastor, I quickly became mentored by the senior pastor of this church of 6,000 people. And really, I would spend every day after high school going to church, hanging out with the Megachurch pastor and learning what it was to be Evangelical theologically, but also the inner workings of pastoral ministry at a church with that many people and all of that. And so that experience really shaped where I thought I was going and what I thought I was called to do. I thought being a pastor was having security guards and going on stage for 45 minutes and leaving with your black SUV and flying away on a private jet. And it is a very weird world, for sure. And I’m grateful that I experienced it at a young age because when I ended up in college and I started really digging deep into the Bible and wrestling, I began to realize that, one, the kind of religion I was a part of didn’t look anything like Jesus and this kind of Megachurch, big-box Christianity was cool, but not Biblical or authentic to Christ. And I started questioning a lot of what I was taught, that the Bible actually taught. When you actually start reading the Bible you realize that the theology in so many churches doesn’t actually reflect what Jesus said and did.

SARA: Wow. That’s a fascinating story. And I read that when you were at Moody Bible Institute in Chicago and you were part of a group that would regularly go into Boystown, which is Chicago’s well-known gay neighborhood, to proselytize. And that experience was formative for you. Tell us about that.

Brandan: Yeah. My four years at Moody Bible Institute in Chicago were transformative in so many ways. And I say that one of the reasons that Moody did transform me is because it’s one of the only Fundamentalist schools in the heart of a major city. Moody is right smack-dab in the middle of downtown Chicago. And so we would walk out of the doors of our campus and our theology would clash with reality of the different kinds of people that lived in the city. And one of the experiences, there was a group – and I think still is a group to this day – that goes down late in the evenings to Boystown and to other neighborhoods where there’s partying and part of their ministry is that they pick up people and get them home safely. And that’s like the overall ministry. But then, also, if there’s opportunity to talk with people about faith, those questions come up. And so it was only once that I ended up actually going to Boystown with this ministry. But it was such a mind-blowing experience because we were going as a group of people who were trying to help lost people, broken people, people that needed Jesus. And I just remember seeing the joy, the queer joy, of the folks that were out. And we’re not even talking about alcohol or any of that stuff. Just people that were enjoying life and actually when we did have spiritual conversations were very open to talking about God and people talking about their relationships with God. And it was one of those experiences where the stereotype of who these people were supposed to be didn’t match what we were seeing in real time. And I also knew that I was struggling with my own sexuality and working to repress that in order to align with my beliefs. And it was one of many experiences that made me start to question whether I needed to keep repressing who God made me to be because I was seeing people who I would’ve said were filled with the Spirit of God, living beautiful lives as openly LGBT people.

SARA: That’s a beautiful story. I really appreciate that. When did you know you were gay and how long did you repress it as you were in this environment that wasn’t welcoming or affirming of the identity – a very welcoming environment?

Brandan: Yeah. And that is a good distinction. We can talk about that in a bit. I think, like so many LGBT people, everyone else seemed to know before I knew. I have this vivid memory. I was probably 4th grade, 3rd grade, on the blacktop playing during recess and I would always sit with my best friend who was another guy. And a young girl came up to us and said, “Hey, everyone thinks that you and your friend are dating? Are y’all a couple?” And this was in 3rd grade. And I was like, “What are you talking about?” But clearly, that kind of stuff happened all throughout my childhood. And so I had questions. But I grew up in a pretty traditional environment and there weren’t many gay people around. And so when I became a Christian, I certainly heard sermons that said being homosexual was an abomination. And I knew that even if I had inclinations in that direction that this was just a sin and I needed to overcome it. And so in high school, I dated women. And when I went to college, I tried to date women. And part of my story is conversion therapy while I was at Moody. I did everything I knew how to do to try to be faithful to what my faith taught me I needed to do. But, of course, repression and changing one’s sexuality – I don’t believe – is possible. And my sexuality kept popping up as something that needed to be actually dealt with with authenticity.

SARA: Wow. I’m very curious to hear more about conversion therapy because I also know it’s pretty common, especially in conservative families and traditions, this idea that – religious conversion therapy, let’s be clear. You’re being sent to religious leaders and therapists – that through that path, you can be changed. Your sexual orientation and identity can change. But can you share a little bit from the inside? What was that like?

Brandan: I mean, to your point and I like to make this point as often as I can. People don’t realize that in every city, virtually – every major city at least and most other minor cities in our country – conversion therapy is actively being practiced today in 2025.

SARA: Yes. It is.

Brandan: There is one version of conversion therapy that is done by licensed therapists that do happen to have religious convictions and it’s not approved by any of the major psychological associations. But that is one side of it. And that is being stigmatized and you’re kind of seeing less of that. But there is a more insidious kind and it is the one that I ended up going through which is happening in Megachurches and small conservative churches all around the country. My conversion therapy looked like meeting with an ex-lesbian professor once a week at Moody. I was told I needed to do this in order to graduate. And so I was kind of forced into it. And when I would sit down with her each week, she would ask me to confess out loud all of my sexual sins, any time I had lusted after somebody, masturbation, all that kind of stuff. You’d have to name that out loud. And in this paradigm, they believe that it’s past trauma that causes someone to be susceptible to falling into the sin of homosexuality. And so the process is confessing sin and then being guided into traumatic memories from my past. And what we would do is vividly remember the plethora of trauma that I went through as a young kid, each individual scenario. And then ask Christ to come into that memory, to that moment, and heal it. And what’s really remarkable and deceptive about this particular practice is that it is kind of helpful. Having a safe space to process trauma that I had never talked about before, does give you this lightness when you walk out. And you’re like, “Wow. That was helpful.” The problem is that I did that for week after week and I would see some of my trauma-related anxiety and depression getting better. But my sexuality wasn’t changing at all. And also I would say – I’m not trying to glorify it at all. I don’t think a non-trained professional should probably be walking anyone through their trauma – it just so happened that I was not triggered in any particular ways that were dangerous at that time. But all of that is to say it’s a strange psychological modality of “Trauma creates homosexuality, so if we can get God to heal you of all your trauma, then we can heal your sexual orientation.” And for a vast majority of people, obviously, there’s no change. And when there’s no change, that’s when you see people resorting to even more extreme tactics. And there are stories of people being forced to watch straight pornography in rooms with people. And all sorts of elaborate, very unethical things. Thankfully, it was at my senior year. And so graduation came and I was able to leave and didn’t have to continue.

SARA: I appreciate the sharing of those details as challenging as they are to share and to hear. But I think it helps really counter these myths that this kind of therapy is effective. And also illustrates why conversion therapy is also really harmful and dangerous.

Brandan: Yeah. And I just want to reiterate again, and I think all your listeners will know, every major psychological association in the country condemns any effort to change a sexual orientation. And I’ve had the privilege of working with the state of Colorado and the government of the Republic of Ireland on creating conversion therapy ban legislation and we are just seeing the overwhelming preponderance of evidence saying that this is objectively harmful. The problem is, that because this is happening in religious institutions, there’s nothing the government can do. And so it is incumbent upon parents, neighbors, to know what’s happening in churches in their communities. And if they have LGBT people or know of LGBT people that are being drawn into those spaces to seek to try to protect them because it’s such an insidious practice.

SARA: Yeah. So you’ve been through conversion therapy. You did graduate Bible college. When did that break, that crisis of faith, or that beginning of deconstruction start for you?

Brandan: My deconstruction began in college. The one part of that story that I didn’t talk about was I started hosting a podcast and radio show my freshman year where we would interview well-known people that were considered outside of Evangelicalism or arch Evangelicalism. And the show was called The Bridge. It was about bridging divides. And so we would talk to people that everybody listening would say is a fundamentalist Christian but we thought were liberals. And that began this process of recognizing, again, that these people that were our enemies or our theological opponents, sounded a lot more like Jesus, looked a lot more like Jesus, and many of these people were LGBT inclusive theologians. One person we interviewed was Brian McClaren who was just on the cover of Christianity Today before we interviewed him for marrying his gay son. And it was this big story in the Evangelical world. And so those conversations began messing with my theology. And then it was also studying the Bible. I got a degree in Biblical Studies. And even if you’re in an Evangelical institution, you’re still reading good Biblical scholarship. And it’s pretty clear that the people that teach that the Bible condemns homosexuality are being overly black and white and ignoring the great deal of nuance and ambiguity. And so that started happening for me. And then, when I graduated, I moved to Washington D.C. And I ended up getting outed in Time Magazine. And that is what actually pushed me both into the progressive Christian world, into the LGBT advocacy world, and into the LGBT community.

SARA: Tell us about that. How did that happen?

Brandan: Yeah. My podcast had kind of gained some steam over my four years at Moody. And I was offered a book deal my senior year to write about my journey from super-conservative to progressive Evangelical. And so I was grateful and excited. And, again, this is what I thought pastors were supposed to do. All pastors were supposed to write books. So I was like, “Look. I’m on the right path.” So I wrote this book for a conservative publisher. But when I graduated Moody, I’d begun advocating for civil marriage equality. So I started an organization. I was part of the beginning of an organization called Evangelicals for Marriage Equality. And we were saying Evangelical Christians should have the right to say “No gay marriage in our churches.” But they should support the civil right of all people in secular society to be married. And so it was this very nuanced position. But it got a lot of pushback from the Evangelical world. And lots of people were riled up about us saying this. And my publisher called me and said basically, “Because of your position supporting marriage equality, we can’t publish your book anymore.” So Time wanted to do a story on me losing a book deal for my support of marriage equality. And the reporter did her job and talked to people and found that I was struggling with my sexuality. And so basically talked to me and said, “I want to tell the fullness of your story. I know you’re not out or identifying as gay right now. But let’s talk about when we want to release this and how you want this to be framed.” It was literally the next day that I started getting text messages on my phone and I realized her editors had hit publish on the story and the headline was “Young Evangelical Leader Loses Book Deal After Coming Out.”

SARA: Oh, my goodness.

Brandan: Yeah. And so immediately, it was traumatic in the moment, but I’m also grateful for it because I immediately got hundreds of emails and radio shows were talking about me in the conservative Evangelical world condemning me as a heretic. So I saw my career in that world go out the window in a minute. But also, this community of progressive Christians that I didn’t really know existed rose up and started saying, “Hey. Come. Be with us.” Progressive Seminaries reached out and said, “Hey. Consider coming here. We’re here to support you.” And I found this new community, literally overnight, that really helped me avoid so much of the trauma that a lot of LGBT people leaving the Evangelical world have to go through. And so it was a crazy and traumatic moment, but also I’m so grateful that it was a quick leaving one community and entering into another.

SARA: That is an incredible story. I had not read that about you. Thank you for sharing that. So you have this abrupt outing. In the process of your own deconstruction, and reconstruction because you’ve been very public that you had the deconstruction but then you have also been really a leader in the reconstruction movement, I would say. What was the hardest part of deconstructing your faith and what gave you the courage to keep going in Christianity and in your faith?

Brandan: I mean, the hardest part for deconstruction, I think for most people, is that when you’re coming from a conservative worldview, everything makes sense. The world is black and white. There is a system and a structure for everything. We literally specialize at our school in systematic theology. I could describe to you the nature of God step by step, every aspect of God. Looking at it now, that seems so absurd. Who thinks that they can systematize the divine? But in that world view, it all makes sense. And so once the bricks start being pulled out, you’re literally in free-fall. And the mental anguish that people go through in deconstruction of having everything they thought they knew about the world go out the window causes so much anxiety, causes so much depression, causes the loss of community because these communities are set up to expel heretics, expel people that are infiltrating or twisting the truth. And that was the hardest part. I mean, I kind of breezed past it in the coming out story. But the trauma of having pastors that mentored me and professors that became like friends, call me and say, “We are so disappointed. You have given yourself over to Satan. You are turning your back on the truth and Hell is what you have to look forward to.” That’s a hard thing for a 21-year-old to hear from the community that saved his life as a 12-year-old. And my experience is kind of just the tip of the iceberg. So many people have it so much worse if their families are deeply in the conservative world or other situations. So the hardest part is going through that initial traumatic loss of community and stability. But if you can make it through, the freefall becomes not a fall into a dark abyss, but a fall into liberation and curiosity and freedom. And that is where my faith sits today. Even the way I describe myself, I call myself a Christian Agnostic these days because I’m firmly in the Christian camp, right? I believe in Christianity. I am compelled by Jesus. But I’m no longer dying on the hill that Christianity is the only right way and that I need to be a Christian and everyone else needs to be a Christian. And that’s such a freeing place to be. And I think that’s where many, many people in the deconstruction process actually end up on the reconstruction side, a much more humble and curious faith.

SARA: I think that is a common experience for a lot of people who are coming out of conservative religion and high control religion. I know in our Mama Dragons community we have many stories that resemble your own in that way of that deconstruction and that crisis of faith all because of their deep desire to support their queer kids, and the lack of support and clarity they found in their religious communities.

Brandan: Yeah.

SARA: And what a difficult place that is. And as I’m listening to you tell your story, I’m thinking, “Well, the Universalist over here hopes that the fall is the realization that you don’t fall into Hell because there isn’t one.”

Brandan: Yeah. And honestly, that is one of the first things to go for many people. And once you can get over the fear of God, I think that’s probably the number one thing, that you have to be afraid of the Divine. Once that goes out the window, you are liberated and healed and life becomes so much lighter and more beautiful. But that’s a big one to get over because it’s about how you understand God. And that’s a big deal for people.

SARA: How did you get over that?

Brandan: I was really lucky. My life has been strange in the sense that I’ve constantly found myself in mentorship relationships with some of the most amazing humans. And it was at Moody, I formed a relationship with Rob Bell, who was this famous Evangelical pastor who while I was at Moody, wrote a book called Love Wins, where he said Hell doesn’t exist. And it blew up the Evangelical world. And somehow he ended up becoming like – we would message every single day and we would do Skype meetings and talk through this together. And so my journey was unconventional and I was helped so much because I was able to, even while still being an Evangelical, work with a trusted voice to say maybe Hell doesn’t exist, maybe God is better than that. And so, again, my deconstruction experience was not so much that the whole world fell out from underneath me. I had this opportunity to slowly begin pulling pieces apart before everything blew up. And I don’t think that’s where most people’s deconstruction experience takes them. But, again, how do you get to that place? Simply look at the Bible and be honest about what you read. The Bible says it’s not God’s will that any would perish, but all come to repentance. The Bible says all will be made alive in Christ. This beautiful Universalist message was always there. But we just chose selectively to not see it because it didn’t fit our theological ends. And I just think when people are empowered to be honest about their faith in the text, lots of stuff begins to open up for people.

SARA: Well, it sounds like you had one or more really good mentors in this space, too. Even for those folks who don’t have a Rob Bell in their life, and I would say Rob’s book blew up the Universalist world too, just in a very different way. But it really rocked our world as well. But searching for those thought leaders, those theologians, and those people in your backyard who can be partners with you on the journey sounds like it’s really important and helpful and worked for you too.

Brandan: Yeah. Exactly to your point. And I don’t mean to sound name-droppy because I actually do think that the other part of my journey was I started attending a church in Chicago two blocks from Moody called LaSalle Street Church where a woman pastor was, which we did not allow. And she became this support for me of like, “You’re this young Evangelical. Let me help you.” For those who are beginning the deconstruction process, reaching out to even somebody you might perceive as your theological enemy. But so many pastors are willing to sit with folks and walk with them and that makes all the difference than feeling like you’re going through this completely alone. And so so many folks like that existed in my journey. And I hope anyone who goes through deconstruction will be brave enough to reach out to their local UU minister or their local UCC minister and see what support they can get.

SARA: Yeah. So I want to keep going down this deconstruction/reconstruction/theological line of questioning here because I thought it would be really interesting for us to really dig into some of the big theological tension points in terms of Evangelical, conservative religion and more progressive Christianity. So I thought we could just have a conversation about some of those big topics that can keep getting brought up. And you’ve touched on a couple of them. But I’m curious for you, you talked about being an Agnostic Christian, which surprised me really, but you have explained that really beautifully and especially turning away from this whole fear of God into God’s love. What about Jesus? Where does Jesus fit in in your theological reconstruction?

Brandan: I talk about, and I’m not the first person to do this, but I talk about the Christ of history and the Christ of Faith, right? I think the historical Jesus was a first-century Jewish rabbi who believed that he was the Jewish Messiah and thought the end of the world was at hand. I think he taught some really remarkable things. And as a historical figure is obviously remarkable. Look at his impact for better and for worse 2000 years later. So I’m very interested in that. I’m doing a PhD in the New Testament. I’m interested in the history. Cool. But that Jesus is actually not that important because the Christ of Faith is what I experienced as a 12-year-old boy when I prayed and invited Jesus into my heart. And the way I would think about that is I think the divine shows up in whatever way we need the divine to show up and meets us where we are. And so I think billions of people around the world have legitimate experiences with God revealed through this being called Christ. Is that the same person as the historical Jesus? That’s way above my pay grade. But I know that I can call on Jesus and experience the presence of God. But I also believe my Hindu neighbors that are calling on various deities and experiencing God. And I don’t think it’s a different God, per se. I think God shows up in the ways that we need God to show up. So all of that to say, I preach Jesus. Jesus is the person I model my life after. I’m very compelled by the Jesus we find in the Gospel Accounts. But I’m not going to die on the hill that Jesus is the only incarnation of God or the one that you need to believe in in order to be saved from some sort of punishment.

SARA: Okay. Let’s keep going down that road. That’s beautiful. And I think that really deeply resonates for me and will for a lot of other people. But I want to keep unpacking this concept of salvation because that is really an argument we hear a lot, or that undergirds this conservative Christianity which is – Jesus is the only way and accepting Christ as your personal savior is the only way into heaven – and it’s kind of attached to a lot of these only way things and also attached to sin, right? So accepting Christ is a way that through redemption and one’s sin. So let’s talk about that for a second. How do you talk about or understand salvation different from when you were an Evangelical in your progressive theology today?

Brandan: Yeah. I mean, I think folks will resonate with this, that once you step outside of Evangelicalism for a little while and look back at what we believe about salvation, it’s completely absurd. And I mean that with the utmost respect. But it doesn’t make sense that humanity falls into sin but instead of God just being able to be gracious and save us, God needs to become a human sacrifice, God’s self, so that God can appease God’s own – the system, it doesn’t make any sense. I’m really interested in the history. And, again, a first century Jewish rabbi would not have taught, one, that he was God in the flesh. I don’t think Jesus taught that. Two, there is no idea that God needed blood sacrifice in order to forgive people. The sacrifice clearly in the Hebrew Bible was symbolic. It was a ritual people could do so that they could recognize that they had already received God’s grace. But all throughout the Hebrew Bible, God is constantly forgiving people without sacrifice. God is gracious at God’s core. So salvation is about us walking away from the path of destruction, which I believe is the path of greed, the path of self-interest, all the things that would be considered sins. But it’s about this life. If you continue to walk in greed and self-indulgence and you are self-interested rather than loving your neighbor, you’re going to create problems and pain for yourself and for others. So when Jesus says, “Wide is the path that leads to destruction and many walk on it,” I think he’s talking about real destruction in this real world. Think about the climate crisis. We are bringing about destruction. It is happening here and now. And when Jesus says, “And the road to life is narrow and there are few that are on it.” Every time Jesus is talking about life or the Kingdom of God, he’s not talking about some afterlife. First century Jews did not have a concept of a heaven and hell. It was impossible for Jesus to be talking about that. It didn’t exist in his culture. What he was talking about was bringing the Kingdom of God to earth, as it is in Heaven as he prays and saying, “If you live according the way of Jesus, you can bring redemption to your life and your world here and now.” So salvation for me is about living the best, abundant, and good, helpful life here and now and escaping the things that bring about suffering in our lives here and now. And when it comes to the afterlife, I – like the Jewish tradition of Jesus’s day – we’ll say, I leave that to the hands of God. I don’t know what happens when we die. And anyone who claims to know what happens when they die is lying because you can’t know that.

SARA: And also what I love about this theological construct that you shared, it’s beautiful, is that you don’t have to know. That you are living in the present, in the grace of God right now, in the Kingdom of Heaven here on Earth. And the afterlife is almost inconsequential.

Brandan: Yeah. Exactly. And it is amazing, and again, everyone will resonate with this, Conservative Christianity is so focused on this idea that salvation is actually not by God’s grace. It’s about believing the right things. And that’s what keeps people from deconstructing, right, because, nobody says it this way but the undergirding theology is if you believe the wrong thing, God will damn you to Hell for eternity. And it’s so liberating on the other side to recognize, first of all, Jesus never gave any theological statements and it’s impossible for finite humans to ever fully conceive of the reality of God. That’s why we keep asking the same questions year after year for thousands upon years. So our salvation has to be based on God’s goodness and God’s grace and God’s love, not on our ability to figure everything out. Because that’s far beyond our capacity to do, if that makes sense.

SARA: Yeah. That makes sense. And along those lines of belief and believing in right things and wrong things, there is where the word “Sin” gets thrown around a lot. And particularly when we’re talking about queerness of any kind is labeled as a sin in conservative religious traditions. How do you respond to that? And also, I’m curious to hear how you would respond to that particular adage that we hear so much in those circles, “Love the sinner, hate the sin.”

Brandan: Yeah. So there’s actually a conservative theologian named Cornelius Plantiga who defines sin as “the culpable disturbance of shalom”. And I love that definition actually. It’s the willful desire to disturb the wholeness and the peace of one’s self, one’s neighbor, creation, etcetera. Sin is anything that we do that is not contributing to our flourishing, our neighbors’ flourishing, the world’s flourishing. And this is – once you start understanding – I feel like that’s a pretty rational definition of what sin is. And yet, I’ve been so stunned recently in conversations with conservatives how they can’t buy into that. Because when it comes to something like homosexuality, it’s so clear that it’s not a sin when you’re using that traditional frame because the question I always ask to a conservative is, “Can you please demonstrate to me the harm being caused by two men or two women in a loving, consensual relationship?” Obviously, they can’t. They can grasp at straws and say things about “Children need a husband and wife…” and blah, blah, all sorts of crazy things. But there’s no harm being done. So it can’t be called a sin. And they have to change the definition of sin to “Laws that God has said that we don’t understand and we don’t need to understand. We just need to obey.” And that is what a lot of conservative Christians believe, that there are a bunch of rules and we don’t actually understand them and God just gave them to us and we’ve got to obey them. And I think for most people, when you can show that that is how they’re thinking about sin, there’s a lightbulb that goes off. And they recognize “This is – Why would God just give us random rules and not explain?” So that’s been helpful for me and it’s been interesting to watch more traditional Christians wrestle with, “Demonstrate the harm of this sin.” And the “Love the sinner, Hate the sin,” thankfully I think that is going out the window more and more even in conservative institutions. Because the goal posts are being moved, and I think in a good way, but in an also deceptive way. Where conservatives aren’t generally now saying, “Homosexuality itself is sinful,” Meaning being attracted to the same sex. The way they talk about that now is that that’s a temptation. But a temptation is not a sin. So it's not wrong, necessarily for you to have that attraction. It’s if you act on it, if you engage in homosexuality, then you are sinning. And so that’s changing the “Love the sinner, Hate the sin” idea. Because before, when that phrase was used, it was the homosexual theirself is a sinful being because they are attracted to the same sex. Now it is, “No. You can be a homosexual.” Even many conservatives will say, “Perhaps you’re born that way as a result of sinful, fallen humanity.” But when you actually engage in homosexuality, that is when you become a sinner. And so the goal posts continue to be moved. People continue to revise the way they do this so they appear more inclusive and welcoming. And I think it’s very important for, especially allies of the LGBT community, parents of LGBT children, to be aware of the ways that this language is changing from, not just religious conservatives, but political conservatives to make them appear more welcoming when really beneath the surface it is still the idea that, “What is a homosexual that doesn’t pursue their natural inclination?” I don’t actually know what that means.

SARA: That creates a lot of fuzziness, I think, and concern. When we talk about sin – when conservative religions talk about sin and queerness and homosexuality – there is a lot of Biblical proof-texting that happens. I mean, we hear passages flung around that are the proof of why that is a sin. And in the reading I’ve done about you, you are particularly skilled at debunking what many now refer to as “The Clobber Passages.” Those typical passages that are always used to confirm the sinfulness when it comes to homosexuality. And I was just hoping you could give us your two minute debunk. And before I give you the “go” sign, I want to talk a moment to just offer that quick content warning to our listeners, many of whom have experienced religious trauma and these passages being used in deeply harmful ways. So we’re going to talk about them some. So maybe this might be a time for you to pause and fast forward here and come back to the rest of our conversation. But I think that I would be really helpful, Brandan, to hear you help us debunk those typical clobber passages.

Brandan: Thank you. And it is actually remarkably simple. And the good news is, through TikTok and other social media platforms, I’m not the only one, Biblical scholarship is exploding on the internet and this information is becoming way more accessible to a lot more people. But quite simply, the concept of sexual orientation did not develop until the 1800’s. The word “homosexuality” did not exist until the 1800’s. So it is impossible for the Bible to use the word “Homosexuality.” Yet, most conservative Bible translations use the word “Homosexual.” So that should raise a question for anybody. How in the world would this word be here? What was happening in the ancient world was that there was no concept of sexual orientation in that men who were citizens of, for instance the Roman Empire, were permitted to engage sexually with whoever they wanted. Men could have sex with their wives. They could have sex with their male slaves, female slaves, men of lower social status, females of lower social status. None of that was considered immoral, problematic. It’s just how the world worked in large swaths of the population around the world. So when the Bible, for instance Romans chapter one, when Paul is condemning men being inflamed with lust for one another, it’s important to recognize the context of what was happening in the Roman Empire was not two men falling in love, moving into a house together or two women falling in love and building a family together. It was men of a certain social status not able to control their sexual passion -- that’s how Paul would’ve put it – and engaging in exploitative and abusive sex to people of lower social statuses. And the other side of that coin is that men of the higher status could never take the position – and this is explicit so forgive me – of being the bottom or the one who receives sexual penetration because in the Roman mind, that emasculated a person. And so I bring that up only to say, gender was fragile in the ancient world. And men of a certain social status had to enact their status through sex. And that’s why Roman men would go and have sex with whomever they wanted to. And it was a sign that they were socially superior. And if you were the person being penetrated, you were emasculated. And it was a reinforcement of your lower status as a human being. This is what is happening in Leviticus. This is what’s happening in Romans and First Corinthians. And the scholarship has been clear on this for 75 years. The problem is there were decisions made by translation committees, by conservative religious leaders who were aligning with political leaders in the 1960’s to double down on poor translations that are not rooted in scholarship. Because this particular issue, along with abortion, causes an emotional reaction in people. People have an “Ick” response to gay sex if you’re not an LGBT person. That’s very common. And people respond to a picture of an aborted fetus. And literally, you can read stuff from Pat Roberston and Jerry Falwell in the 1960’s literally saying, “We are using these issues because it will motivate people.” And the religious rite has effectively used these two issues to play on people’s fears and to make the Bible say something that scholars know the Bible doesn’t say about same-sex relationships. So just to tie a bow, the Bible does not condemn loving, consensual same-sex relationships. The Bible clearly condemns same-sex abuse and assault on people. And it’s a shame that the church has been making this about same-sex relationships rather than abuse and assault which is a much bigger problem for the church today.

SARA: And, frankly, silencing abuse and assault while being very vocal about consensual, loving, same-sex relationships. That is extraordinarily helpful. Thank you for walking us through that. And I’m curious if, when you were at Moody, and when you were studying Biblical scholarship, did you learn that?

Brandan: So I was mentored at Moody by somebody who is now a prominent ex-gay teacher named Christopher Yuan. And to his credit, he would give us good Biblical scholarship to read and say, “This is the affirming perspective and then here is our perspective.” So, yes. I was given that information. And here’s the thing I also just want to say as a caveat – and I say this in the book to be very clear – It is impossible to know what any of the Biblical writers were actually thinking and referring to 100%. All Biblical interpretation is a best guess based on context and history. So I believe my interpretation of the clobber passages, and I think I have a great deal of historical evidence, the book has 100 footnotes for people to look at. But it is also true that it’s very likely that the Apostle Paul who wrote Romans probably, if we transported him to 2025, probably would not be pro-gay. And that’s okay. Paul doesn’t need to be pro-gay. Paul is just a human being of his time. And Christians need to engage with the Bible in the way that our Jewish siblings engage with scripture. Not as the final word, but as a conversation partner. So there is ambiguity in the Bible about sexuality. I would not tell anybody to use the Bible as their guide for sexual ethics because it’s an ancient book. Of course not. So I just want to add that nuance. It’s not black and white. I can’t say 100% the Bible is not at all anti-LGBT. I think the best scholarship leads us in that direction. But even if it is, the Bible endorses slavery and Christians have decided to move on from that interpretation, rightfully so.

SARA: Right.

Brandan: So there are other reasons we should not be anti-LGBT other than the good scholarship that I do think exists.

SARA: Our thinking and our choices have, in fact, evolved from the historical context of Biblical times. And you touched on this just a little bit, and I’m hoping you’ll elaborate on this tension point of the Bible as the inherent word of God. And I know I hear that a lot in conservative traditions. But that doesn’t just really jive with historical context. And then also being able to use historical context in the evolution of our own theology. How do you talk about that?

Brandan: That is the biggest, if there’s any single belief that separates conservatives from progressives, and that causes deconstruction, it’s the realization that inerrancy is quite frankly a lie. Inerrancy is a doctrine that really began in the 1800’s. It’s a new doctrine that almost all conservatives believe. And it’s that the Bible, all of the words, literally proceed from God and therefore are perfect. They’re perfect historically. They’re perfect scientifically. They’re perfect biologically. They are perfect in all ways, which makes the Bible an unquestionable document. And so a conservative will come to a passage like Leviticus 18:22 which says “a man shall not lie with a man as with a woman for this is an abomination.” And bringing historical context to that doesn’t even matter, “Because that was God’s word for all time and the way we understand it must be the way that they understood it in Leviticus.” So all gay sex is sinful and wrong and you cannot question in because it’s in the Bible. Now, anybody who does ten minutes of research into historical studies of the scripture will find that there are thousands of errors in the Bible. There are thousands of inaccurate statements. There are thousands of doctrines that we have evolved on and changed that are different than what the Bible puts forward. But the moment you realize that, inerrancy has to go out the window. And so conservatives will guard against that completely. And it makes it really hard to have conversations with conservatives because their foundation is the belief that this book is perfect in every way. Everyone else’s foundation is science, reason, critical thinking. And there’s actually no compatibility there because once you start using this, “This cannot be true anymore,” and it’s one of the reasons that there’s such a great divide between progressive, inclusive Christians and conservative Christianity.

SARA: Thank you. And I’ve heard you also make a beautiful distinction about the difference between this false idea of inerrancy and divine inspiration. Tell us a little bit about how you understand the difference there.

Brandan: Again, it’s so simple, but it doesn’t seem simple when you’re in the conservative Christian mindset. The Bible does say of itself that, Second Timothy said all scripture is inspired by God. That’s a verse from the Bible. What does inspiration mean? Well, it’s the feeling that you have when you watch a sunset. It’s when you hear a beautiful piece of music. I believe in spirit, inspired literally means inspirited which means God’s presence is felt in and through something. So when the writers of scripture are saying the Bible is inspired, they’re saying God’s spirit moves through this text. And I believe that. I still to this day open up the Bible and have what I think are encounters with God that are just profound and beautiful. But for Evangelicals, they collapse inerrancy and inspiration to become one concept. So if you say the Bible is inspired, it must be perfect. I’m inspired by God. You’re inspired by God. We are not perfect. And so that’s how I understand this scripture, is that I think God still speaks through it. I think the Bible’s a remarkable book. Clearly for thousands of years, billions of people have found inspiration from it. That’s unique. I think we should revere it for that purpose. But that doesn’t mean that we can’t argue with it or disagree with it or say some parts of it are wrong. And that’s the difference between me and the traditional conservative view.

SARA: I appreciate that. It’s a very beautiful way of understanding how I can experience that inspiration while also taking issue with some of the things in the Bible, all at the same time. Both can be true at once.

Brandan: Yes.

SARA: Another phrase and position that is pretty common in the Evangelical world is that we hear a lot of talk around God’s punishment and bad things in particular being God’s punishment. In small ways and in large ways, from God punishing humanity for the AIDS crisis. That was God’s punishment. AIDS was a punishment for homosexuality. But also, I’ve heard it just as used for people who have cancer and that somehow being God’s punishment because you were sinful or not a true believer. And there’s this test around that. So I wonder if you can walk us through the deconstruction and reconstruction of that really problematic thinking because I think it causes a lot of pain and harm for folks.

Brandan: On one hand, it is a consistent belief. If you believe that the Bible is inerrant, then all of the things that the Bible says about God and what God does are absolutely true. And the God of the Bible does condone genocide. The God of the Bible does strike people down. And so you can see how all of the theology’s so intricately tied together in this tight bundle. And if you pull a piece of it, it all unravels. But one thing that Evangelicals taught me that unraveled this for me, is that as Christians, we read the Bible through the lens of Jesus. Meaning if you want to know what God is like, look at Jesus. And if your image of God does not align with Jesus, it’s wrong. You conform it to the way of Jesus. That is a deeply Christian, a traditional way of understanding the Bible. And the behavior of Jesus towards sinners, towards people he perceived as his enemies, towards all of the people that we might think God would judge, was love and grace and invitation to restoration rather than retributive pouring out judgment. Jesus doesn’t strike anyone dead. When Jesus has the opportunity to throw a stone at an adulterous woman, he takes it and says, “Go and sin no more.” He extends grace. So for me, it’s simply pointing everyone back to Jesus and saying, “If you’re afraid of God, would you be afraid of the person of Jesus that you find in the Gospels?” The answer is almost universally, “No.” And the last thing I’ll say is the thing that actually shifted everything for me. There’s this beautiful passage in First John which says “God is Love. And perfect love casts out all fear because fear has to do with judgement.” That verse revolutionized my entire faith because it says that the nature of God is love and that the love of God expels fear of punishment. Meaning, any time I’m afraid of being punished, that fear is not from God. As soon as I got that, and it’s right there black and white in the Bible. I realized, “Oh my god. I don’t need to be afraid about getting all my theology right because that fear is not from God. I don’t need to worry about hell because that fear of judgement is not from God. It's opposed to God’s nature, which is love.” And so those two things, pointing people to Jesus and then pointing people to this nature of God that expels the fear of punishment, helped me to have a more curious faith because I didn’t need to be afraid of believing the wrong thing. And it also, as a newly out gay person, allowed me to go through second-adolescence which is something many gay people go through, which is experimenting and doing things that my conservative Evangelical mind would’ve said, “This is all wrong and sinful.” But over here, I recognize we’re humans in need of grace. Sometimes we’re going to get it right. Sometimes we’re going to get it wrong. But when we get it wrong, that doesn’t equal judgment from God. It equals grace from God. And that’s a liberating space to be in.

SARA: Oh, beautiful. Yes. That was so liberating just to listen to you talk about. How do you talk about suffering in theological terms today?

Brandan: I mean, suffering’s the hardest question. It’s the question that every atheist asks a theist. And it’s the question that I think could make me an atheist, frankly, because there is no good answer to why suffering exists. I think the Christian story would say something like – and I find this helpful – that in Jesus we see a God who suffers with us. God is alongside us in the midst of suffering. I find comfort in that. As a pastor, I would share that as something our tradition offers to people who are suffering. But it still doesn’t answer the question of why suffering at all. And I think the traditional Christian answer is something like, “Well, humans chose to sin however many million years ago and it was our choice to sin that brought suffering to the earth." But if God is good and God is gracious, why would God not just intervene? Right. So this might be a very unsatisfying answer. But in a philosophical or theological conversation, I would concede that I have no good answer for why suffering exists and why God doesn’t do anything about it. The only that I can answer is that when I have suffered in my life, it is in those moments that I have experienced that profound presence of God and that has helped me to overcome. But that’s my experience. And I know that’s not everyone’s experience. And so I would not want to universalize that and say it's everyone’s suffering, “Well, God is with you.” Because some people feel like God is not with them. Jesus on the cross felt like God was not with him. So suffering is a hard one.

SARA: I really appreciate the demonstration of your own theological wrestling with us. That’s also very liberating to hear. You mentioned it earlier, and I know this because I did a little deep dive research on you, that some conservative religious communities have branded you a heretic and leaders even in your past. And I just want to say in my tradition, we take that as a compliment. But I’m curious to hear, how have you handled that?

Brandan: It’s a weird place, and I’ve done a lot of reflection recently. It’s a weird place to find yourself. Ten years after graduating college, now pretty much universally a false teacher and a heretic to the people that raised you and that I still have affection for. It’s very strange. But to your point, I’ve gotten to hang out with lots of heretics, whether they’re Unitarian Universalist or progressive Christians or people who left the faith all together. And what I’ve found is that the desire to label someone a heretic or a false teacher comes from a theology rooted in fear. And I have a lot of empathy for people that are afraid because I also as a young high school student, I went around my high school telling people they were going to go burn in Hell because they didn’t believe what I believed. I have been where these people are and I know what’s motivating them. And it’s actually not that they’re immoral or bad people. It’s that they’re really afraid that they’re going to go to Hell if they allow someone with a different perspective to go on saying things. So I think my experience of “being the person who called people false teachers” to become “the person who is a false teacher,” has given me a little bit more empathy and it’s more of a, my heart hurts for the people that are saying that to me. But that’s not to say I’m made of Teflon. Because I’ve also recognized that it’s a sad thing to have a community that you loved so thoroughly reject you, not just as not one of them but actually as their enemy. And I know lots of people experience this in their own ways. And I’m in therapy every week working through the religious trauma of those deeply ingrained beliefs that I still have sometimes of, “Am I doing the right thing? Am I going to go to Hell?” That stuff is still there because it’s at a subconscious level. And so I still wrestle with that. And I pastor people who wrestle with that daily. And I think that’s part of the lasting religious trauma impact of conservative theology.

SARA: Thank you for that vulnerability because I know that experience is shared by a lot of folks. And it probably feels really good to be able to hear it also shared by someone who is now a leader and a public theologian. So I really appreciate your honesty in that. We are wrapping up time and we have hardly scratched the surface here. But, listeners, I am going to bring Brandan back for a Part 2 of this conversation so we can also hear about all of the amazing work and writing that he is doing now and some really cool things he’s done. But I wanted to take this deep theological dive with you because I think it was so helpful and so informative and so personal and moving to me and to our listeners. So thank you, Brandan for that, for being with us, and I’m excited for Part 2.

Brandan: Thank you so much. It’s been an honor to get a chance to chat with you.

SARA: Thanks so much for joining us here In The Den. Did you know that Mama Dragons offers an eLearning program called Parachute? This is an interactive learning platform where you can learn more about how to affirm, support, and celebrate the LGBTQ+ people in your life. Learn more at mamadragons.org/parachute. Or find the link in the episode show notes under links.

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People on this episode

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Sara LaWall

Host
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Jen Blair

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