Resilience, Reinvention, and Being a Queer Elder

Today In the Den, we’re thrilled to welcome a guest whose story is as rich and layered as the music and words he creates. Bill Robertson is a Hollywood writer, having written for National Lampoon, and one of the creators of Paradise: A Town of Sinners & Saints (both a stage musical and a 2023 film available on Prime). Bill’s journey spans decades. At 63, he’s a proud gay man who lived through, and survived, the deeply painful years of the AIDS crisis, which led him to become a bit of an amateur gay historian. Bill’s story is one of resilience, reinvention, and the surprising roads that lead us home.

Special Guest: Bill Robertson

Bill Robertson is an author, playwright, and screenwriter.  His book Uncle Bill's Animal Tales - Life Lessons for Adults is about his experiences with animals, and how he believes they are his greatest teachers and healers.  His latest feature film Paradise a Town of Sinners & Saints, a musical comedy, based on a stage production that had two long runs in LA and at the Austin Playhouse in Texas is being distributed by Artist View Entertainment and is streaming on Amazon, Youtube Movies, GooglePlay, Tubi & Xumo.

Bill worked two careers for many years, as a corporate recruiter and writer. He sold two scripts to Lifetime, and one, aired in 2018-2019.  He wrote for a kids show on PBS, National Lampoon Magazine, and ran sketch shows in Boston, New York, and Los Angeles for several years. He has a passion for animals, politics, sports, and gay rights. He's 27 years clean and sober and is a proud gay man, who is here on the planet to love more, not less, and to be of service to others. He prides himself on giving a damn. 

Links from the Show:

• The Times of Harvey Milk: https://www.amazon.com/Times-Harvey-Milk/dp/B00A5IXPJA 
• Paradise, A Town of Sinners & Saints Musical: https://www.paradisebluegrassmusical.com/  
• Find your local PFLAG chapter: https://pflag.org/findachapter/ 
• Join Mama Dragons: www.mamadragons.org 

In the Den is made possible by generous donors like you. Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today at www.mamadragons.org.

Transcript

SARA: Hi everyone. Welcome to In the Den with Mama Dragons. A podcast and community to support, educate, and empower parents on the journey of raising happy and healthy LGBTQ+ humans. I’m your host, Sara LaWall. I’m a Mama Dragon myself and an advocate for our queer community. And I’m so glad to be part of this wild and wonderful parenting journey with all of you. Thanks for joining us. We’re so glad you’re here.

Today In the Den, we are thrilled to welcome a guest whose story is as rich and layered as the music and words he creates. Bill Robertson is a Hollywood writer, having written for National Lampoon, and one of the creators of Paradise: A Town of Sinners & Saints, a bluegrass musical comedy where good and evil fight for the soul of a dried-up coal mining town. Paradise is both a stage musical and a 2023 film available on Amazon Prime. And Bill’s journey spans decades. At age 63, he is a proud gay man who lived through and survived the deeply painful years of the AIDS crisis, which also led him to become a bit of an amateur Gay Historian. But perhaps one of the most powerful parts of Bill’s story is his family. He was raised by Republican, religious parents who, through love and their own commitment to their own growth, became proud members of PFLAG. Bill’s story is one of resilience and reinvention and the surprising roads that lead us home. And I am so glad to welcome you In the Den, Bill. Thanks for being with us today.

BILL: I’m so glad to be here. Thank you.

SARA: You’re welcome. So at 63, you really are a queer elder – 64 now.

BILL: Sixty four.

SARA: My apologies.

BILL: I’m outing myself as being old, but anyway.

SARA: You are considered a queer elder and you’ve lived through some of the most transformative decades in queer history. So tell me a little bit about what does that mean to you to be a 64-year-old gay man in 2025?

BILL: Oh my God, this is the first time anyone has called me a queer elder. So I’m still trying to process that. And it’s true though. It’s so true. I’m serious. That just kind of hit me when you said that. What is it like? When I came out in the early 80’s, the AIDS epidemic was almost in full swing. And I didn’t know much about it, to be honest with you, at the time. And I’ve always just been me. I don’t really kind of fit into – my friends would always say, “Are you sure you’re gay?” because I can’t color coordinate anything. I remember I had a dinner party at my house one time and there was a painting way up high near the ceiling. And my friend was like, “Bill, why is that up there?” I’m like, “It’s covering a hole.” And he was like, “Are you sure you’re gay?” And I love sports. I know more about sports than most people. I’m a Red Socks fan, Patriots, Bruins, Celtics. It’s just because I’m from Boston. So either gay or straight, you can take the boy out of Boston, but you can’t take Boston out of the boy. But being gay today, at times I find it confusing. I now understand what older gay men told me when I was young, that there is a sense of, not discrimination, but pushed aside to a certain… I don’t spend a lot of time around a ton of young gay people. I have friends that are young and they’re gay. But I’m not in the clubs. I’m not doing that. And for me, back then, the clubs were still a meeting place where we might not feel comfortable walking down the street holding hands with my partner at the time. People were still very much in the closet. And, in the 80’s, the AIDS epidemic brought everybody together. The lesbian community didn’t get enough credit until we had a handle on the AIDS epidemic because there were a lot of gay men who alienated. I don’t want to talk in generalities because everyone’s different. But I know a lot of lesbians who felt that they were being pushed to the side as well. And when the AIDS epidemic came in, they were the main group that helped take care of gay men who were dying.

SARA: Yeah.

BILL: I lost my partner in ’92. He died of AIDS. I’m still negative today. I have no idea how that happened. But it did. And I’ve lost two other partners who have died – we weren’t partners at the time but after we had broken up they also died of AIDS. So there were three people who I was very much in love with who all passed at very young ages. And taking care of my partner back in 1992, when he died – we were together for about 3 years – the sense of community was still very, very strong. And I think it’s there today. I think it needs a boost. And if I bounce around a little bit, bear with me. But I think the gay community is a huge voting block that has been underestimated and underutilized. And I think it’s because we don’t have any leaders in the gay community where everyone knows their name. Back during the 80’s, Larry Kramer, who ran Act Up, was feared by the straight community. His main target at the time was Anthony Fauci.

SARA: Oh, wow.

BILL: Dr. Fauci was his target.

SARA: Wow.

BILL: And over time, they actually became friends. But in the beginning, because Fauci worked for the government and he was young, they weren’t even recognizing that AIDS was an issue.

SARA: Right.

BILL: The Reagan Administration wouldn’t even say the word AIDS. The Bush administration wouldn’t. So people came together. I remember one time, I was at a Gay Pride in Boston and there was a thing called “Cycle-rama” which wasn’t really a club. It was more like an event space. And I remember everyone in there – God, I might even cry at this. And it was so long ago, but it’s still so powerful – we created this giant circle and everyone held hands. And we sang a Stevie Wonder song. And I can’t remember the song. But I do remember it was a Stevie Wonder song and there wasn’t a dry eye in the place because people came together. I mean, another thing people don’t talk about, a lot of people when you tested positive back then, it was a death sentence. So people were frightened to even go in and get tested. And how they told you whether you were positive or negative was probably the best way they could come up with it, but it was cold. There was no real feeling to it. I remember when I got tested and I went and I sat, it was a community center in Boston. And they take you in a room, you sit behind a metal desk, a guy comes in – or woman, it’s usually a guy – and they sat down with a folder. They put it on the table and they stared at you. Didn’t say a word. Then they opened it quickly, told you what it was, and closed it. And it would be like, for me it was “Negative,” closed it. “How do you feel?” It was that, where it was just kind of overwhelming. And you’d leave there and there’d be other people sitting out there waiting to go in to get their test results. So everybody didn’t come out of there smiling and laughing and excited. And I tried to contain mine because I didn’t know the situation with these people. And I had already had a lot of friends commit suicide. That was the biggest part where people who were taking their lives because they didn’t want to go down that path. And the Unitarians, I’m going to mention this, the Arlington Street Church – Oh my God, I’m going to cry. I knew I was going to cry – was the only place in town who took in AIDS patients, who went out and did that type of work. Reverend Kim Crawford Harvey was in Provincetown at the time before she went to the Arlington Street Church in Boston. And that woman, oh my God, the work that they did for people. And if you’ve ever taken care of anyone who’s got a bad illness and they’re dying, it shifts you as a human being.

SARA: Oh, yeah.

BILL: I fell more in love with my partner as I was taking care of him than beforehand. I was in love with him, but it was that. So at this time of what’s going on, I find a lot of it – and once again, this is just my opinion. It’s probably a rash generalization – but I think people have lost sight of what we had to go through. And I’ll ask young gay people, I do do this, I kind of quiz them, “Do you know who Larry Kramer is?” And they’ll like, “No. Who’s that?” They should know who the hell it is. It drives me out of my mind at times. And then I remember there was a big part of the gay community was in the news for a while. I don’t know how big a part of it, but that people were trying to get HIV, in solidarity to the older gay men. And I’m like, “What are you doing?” When this thing first hit, they were shutting down bath houses. And the drag queens would go into the more hardcore bars with flashlights. And they’d go into the back rooms where, if there was anything going on, and shine the flashlights on them and hand them condoms. We had to be that open about it.

SARA: I love that the drag queens were helping save lives, helping save lives, helping save lives. That message has gotten quite twisted today. I want to go back for a moment, too. Yes, Reverend Kim Crawford Harvey has an extraordinary reputation in my tradition. But I just want to pause for a moment to note that those who were caring for AIDS patients at the time, it was also at the moment when there was so much stirred up fear around how one contracts AIDS that this became a community of untouchables. So the people that were carrying for them were really bucking that narrative and coming in and caring for folks who weren’t really getting care any other way because people were so scared that you could get AIDS just by touching someone.

BILL: My sister called me. She’s ten years older than me. We got along great, loved her kids. This was back in the 80’s. And she said to me, “Billy, I love you but I can’t have you around my children.” And not because she thought I was a pedophile or anything. It was because she was worried that I could give someone AIDS even though I didn’t have AIDS and I was negative. And I said to her, “Have you got any research on this?” And she was also from Massachusetts and she said, “Well, I went to the Sudberry Health Clinic.” And I’m like, “No. No. No. No. No. No. Go into town and go to Boston University and do your research. And until you do that, I’m not your brother anymore.” And I had to hit her right between the eyes because she was a born-again Christian. And I said, “Do you think this is the way Jesus would’ve handled it?” And I hung up the phone. And I totally dismissed my sister, that I no longer have a sister. I was not – was I out? Yeah. I was out – and a couple of months later, I got a letter from her. She said, “I took your advice. I went into Boston University. I did the research. I have nothing to worry about and I love you.”

SARA: Wow. Wow.

BILL: My sister and myself are more than that today. She’s one of my best friends. She did what people needed to do. And even today it drives me crazy. It’s like, “Have you researched it?” “No.” It’s like, “We have Google, for God’s sake. You have no excuse. That and AI and you can research anything.” So I have another part to this. So when my partner got sick in Boston and he would go in and out of the hospital. And he was at one of the bigger hospitals. I’m not going to name them. And I went to go visit him and there was a quarantine sign on his door. And his meal was outside of the room. And I went to the nurses station and I said, “Has he not been fed?” And she was, “Oh, I don’t know.” So I went in. His room had not been cleaned. And then I pulled a Shirley MacLaine from Terms of Endearment. I went and was like, “Give me a bucket and a mop and I will clean his room.” And the reason why they hadn’t gone in, the workers didn’t speak English. And it’s no shot at people who don't speak English. Come one, I’m not one of those. But it was that nobody educated them on what the sign meant. It wasn’t about them catching anything. They were worried about him catching something. But because they didn’t speak English and nobody had bothered to explain it to them, he was going untreated and uncared for. So then, near the end, I sent him home for Christmas because he was born on Christmas Eve and he was from Dayton Ohio. And his family were all hard-core Christians. And his mother – “Peaches” is what she went by, and he was black – and she said to me, “Billy. I’m not going to judge Timmy. Why would I judge him? He’s my son. I love him.” They practiced the principles of Jesus Christ. It wasn’t about how they carried their Bible. It was about the teachings of unconditional love. So when I went out to visit him because his kidneys had failed. And even though I had the Power of Attorney, it didn’t cross state lines. So I went right into the middle of the Bible belt in 1991, because he died in January of ’92. And I was part of a support group of men through one of the community centers, who were, we were all taking care of our partners dying of AIDS. And in one week, four of us lost our partners. And even the counselors were more floored than we were. They were like, “No. No. We came here.” It was that intense at the time. So here I am. I go out to Dayton, Ohio. I walk into his hospital room and there were five Black Baptist ministers looking at me. And they turned and extended their hand. That was so long ago and it’s still hitting me. And they said, “You must be Timmy’s friend, Bill.” And welcomed me into the room. None of the nurses wore gloves. One of them sat there with me and Tim when Tim went into a coma. And she said, “You know, I was taught in nursing school not to get attached.” She said, “I do completely the opposite.” And we both stood over him, crying. And even that day, I was staying at a motel where there was one of those old diners next door. It was like something out of a 1970’s sitcom, Alice. And I remember sitting next to this trucker. And there was the waitress and the cook I could see right there. And they even were just – middle of the country, Dayton, Ohio, AIDS epidemic – and the guy says, “Hey, I’ve never seen you before. What are you doing in town?” And I said, “I’m visiting a friend in the hospital.” And he said, “Oh, car accident?” I said, “No. AIDS.” And, instead of him going, really turning away from me, instead he went, “Oh, I’m so sorry.” And when I got up to leave, him, the waitress, and the cook all yelled, “Good bye.” And he said – maybe because I haven’t told this story in so long – he goes, “I hope your friend’s okay.” And when I headed back to Boston and then Tim died two days later. And the reason I tell this story is East Coast, West Coast can think the middle of the country is one way when they’re not. And it’s a matter that good people are across this country. And I believe we’re only on the planet for two reasons. One, to be of service to others. And, two, to get to know more about who we truly are. That’s it. Everything else is gravy.

SARA: This is a beautiful story and it’s very special because there are stories that are not that from the AIDS epidemic as well. So it’s really beautiful to hear that you and Tim were so embraced and held at the end of his life. And the AIDS crisis took a toll on the gay community, on our country, on our politics. How did that era shape you personally and professionally?

BILL: First off, I came out. I refused, and I worked in corporate America for a long time. And any job I took, I made sure they knew I was gay. If anyone listening has not seen the documentary, the Life and Times of Harvey Milk I highly recommend. The movie Milk is very good. But the documentary, that’s what got me to come out of the closet. I came out within the year after seeing that doc. And I saw it on PBS because the doc came out in the late 60’s and I didn’t come out until the 80’s. I was only eight or nine in the 60’s. And it was Harvey Milk saying, “If everybody came out, everybody, there would be no homophobia at all because it could be your dentist – which my dentist is – it could be the mailman. It could be the butcher,” at the time. It was that type of philosophy and I went, “He’s right.” I mean, if you look at the story of Harvey Milk and when Dan White shot and killed him and then Dan White got off on what they call the “Twinkie Defense” because he ate too much bad food, and that made him crazy. So that made it okay for him to go in and shoot a gay man and kill him. And then of course the Mayor of San Francisco, George Moscone. But the thing is, when Dan White came back to San Francisco because he left for a while, he hung himself. And there was question – and I don’t know – but was he closeted in some way? Was he not being true to who he is? And I mean, I have a very dear friend who I’ve known since 1990, who called me one day. He’s also a comedian or a writer and told me in his 50s that he was a trans woman. And I had been to his wedding. I watched his kid grow up. And my first response was not one of discrimination. I thought he was kidding because he writes comedy and just his tone, you never know what he’s going to say to me. And he was like, “No, Bill. I am.” And I’ve walked through this with him, his transition to who he is. And the one thing I’ve taken from it, bottom line, he’s more authentic with who he is. He seems happier. He seems more at ease with himself. He’s a go-getter, like anybody else. But there’s a sense of peace to him that I’ve noticed. And I just screwed that up, to her, because she really is – and it’s funny because I’ll talk to her and I feel like I’m talking to a different person. And I want to make sure that I’m explaining that properly – it’s talking to someone who knows who they are.

SARA: That’s a great description.

BILL: That’s really what it is. And she has educated me on a lot of things. I still screw up all the time because I say this to everybody, but when I say it to her I always feel it and she just kind of laughs at me. I’ll be like, “Hey man. How’s it going?” and she just kind of shakes her head like, “Bill, someday you’ll get it.” And I didn’t realize it because I say it to women. I say it to everybody. And I asked her, I said, “How do you identify?” and she said, “Bill, I’m a trans woman. It’s easy for you to remember.” And I said, “Yeah.” And I appreciate that. And I almost wish the government, if they were conscientious enough, had sent out a giant mailing letting us all know what does it mean, and nonbinary, and all of the other terms that so many of my older friends, gay or straight, get very frustrated when they’re called on it. And it’s just because they don’t know. So we’ve all been researching it. I have over the past few years.

SARA: Great.

BILL: So I understand. But a lot of people don’t go the extra mile. They just feel that they’re, “One more thing that I have to remember.” I’m like, “Okay this is not like your password or user name. This is a little different.”

SARA: A little different. And, Bill, I really appreciate this moment right here of you demonstrating for us. You caught yourself. You shifted. You used her correct pronouns and showed us that it’s possible to make a mistake, notice, switch gears, repair, and keep learning and keep growing. And I think that’s the key for all of us. 

I want to talk a little bit about coming out for you because you talked about the inspiration of Harvey Milk. But I want to know, what was it like for Bill? What was it like when you came out and particularly to your parents and your family because your bio let us know that you grew up in a household with Republican parents, religious parents, which is a common experience in our Mama Dragons community. So talk to us about that?

BILL: Let me clarify, too. My mom was an atheist. My dad was a Baptist.

SARA: Oh wow.

BILL: And how they made it work is pretty interesting.

SARA: That’s amazing.

BILL: And they were married for 64 years. She would only say she was an atheist if I pressed her on it. She went to church with my dad. She just didn’t like to rock the boat. And she didn’t mention it until she was much older. And then she kind of shifted again thinking that there was something there. So when I came out, it was either ’83 or ’84. I keep trying to remember exactly. I was already dating someone and we had broken up. And it devastated me. He died of AIDS eventually. He taught me a lot about being street smart. This guy was just, oh my god. Anyway, I learned a lot from him and we had a lot of great times. And we broke up and I called her from a pay phone – that’s how long ago it was – and I remember I came out to her. And she listened and she was so compassionate. And she said two things. One was, “So now, do I treat you like a homosexual or a bisexual?” And I said, “First of all, how many do you know?” because this was in Attleboro, Massachusetts, which is not the most, at that time, a lot of Republicans, a lot of conservatism. So, anyway, I said, “How about treating me like Bill?” “I can do that.” I’m like, “Alright, good.” My mom was a – for anybody who doesn’t know of All In the Family which was an incredible TV show from the 70’s – she was a little bit like Edith Bunker and my dad was a little bit like Archie, Archie Bunker. And then the second thing she said is, “But you can’t tell your dad because he’ll have a heart attack and die.” And I’m like, “Alright. Well, that’s a bit extreme.” But he had already had several heart attacks. He had multiple heart attacks throughout his life and he lived to be 89. He was the Energizer Bunny. And after a heart attack, he’d wait a week and then go out and row a boat or fall off a ladder. I mean, he was crazy. So a couple of years passed. And he said to my mom, “Is Billy gay?” And she said, “You’ll have to ask him.” Which means yes. So I got a call from her and she was like, she told me the story, “And he’s very upset and he’s cried for a couple of weeks. I didn’t want to tell you until I knew. But he wants to talk to you so you need to come down to the Cape.” They were living on Cape Cod at the time. They were still working, they both worked into their 80’s.

SARA: Wow.

BILL: Yeah. My dad stopped work at 86, died at 89. And when my dad died my mom was 85 and she was still working and then she was killed in a car accident four months after my dad passed.

SARA: Oh, gosh.

BILL: She made chocolate at the Candy Manor in Chatham, Massachusetts, and they put her apron behind glass and hung it above her work station. I was very blessed with parents, I mean my mom just had a giant open heart. But my dad, once again like we talked about, he followed the teaching of Jesus the Christ. He didn’t demonize.

SARA: So what was his reaction when you had the conversation?

BILL: Well, this is what happened. So I show up at their house on the Cape. And he has sent my mother away. And I walk in and he’s watching the Red Sock’s game and he goes, “We need to talk about your problem.” And I immediately, and you can’t hesitate if you’re going to do this. I turned and I said, “No. We need to talk about your problem.” And he went, “What? Let’s go for a ride in the car.” So went for a ride in the car and he said to me, -- God I’m going to cry again – what every gay man wants to hear their dad say. He said, “Listen. I don’t have to agree with your lifestyle. But you’re my son and I love you no matter what.” So when my partner went into a coma, I called my dad. I called my dad. He would work over the years. He called me out of the blue one day and say, “Bill, I’ve gone through the entire Bible and I don’t see where you’re going to go to hell.” And I’d be like, “Oh, thanks for the call. That’s very nice of you.” And he read his Bible every day. He took that Bible in on D-Day in World War II, he had that Bible with him. We still have it. He carried it right on him. And we had that in common, because I’m a God guy. But I’m not a religious guy. I’m a spiritual person, you know energy, the universe, mother nature, whatever we want to call it. But I talked to God all day long. I talked to that little voice in the back that I know is not my ego, based on the response I get. So that was that part. So over the years, if I said to him, “I was talking to my friend Sara on a zoom call.” He’d immediately go, “Who’s Sara?” And I’d be like, “She’s a friend.” “Well, can she be more than that?” I’m like, “I’m gay.” “I know. I’m just asking.” And he would confront female friends of mine. “Hey, do you love my son?” “Yeah, I do. I do love Bill.” “No, do you LOVE my son?” “What? He’s gay.” “What if he wasn’t?” He would literally say that to them and then they would come and tell me. And I’d be like, “What are you doing?” Because he was trying to understand it. He wanted, I don’t know what it was. We had sports in common. We got along great. He knew my partners over the years. And he would tell me if he didn’t like somebody I was dating, “Bill, he’s going to hurt you. That man’s going to hurt you.” And I was almost going to swear but I stopped myself. And he was right. So I got to see him the day before he died, or two days. He’d gone into hospice. He still had a sense of humor. And as I left the facility on Cape Cod, I heard a nurse go, “Mr. Robertson!” And I went and I looked around the corner and he was sitting in the doorway and he looked at me and he just gave me this smile because he would flirt. And he would never act on anything, but he may have said something to her. And he passed the next day. And him and my mom were married for 64 years. And I would drill them on, “Come on. When you were overseas, you must’ve dated other women?” and stuff. He was like, “Bill, I’ve never slept with anybody other than your mom.” And I believed him. My dad, he walked the talk. Probably the most honest man I’ve ever met in my entire life. And my mother, same thing.

SARA: That’s wonderful.

BILL: I’m really blessed, really blessed that way.

SARA: It really is a blessing. Do you know what it was that led them to join PFLAG?

BILL: So, they joined PFLAG because my dad was having a hard time with this. He cried for a long time, my mom said. But you see, my dad came out of a different generation. You don’t talk about it. You don’t talk about your feelings. And he tried to commit suicide at the end. Before he got sick, they had put him on this medication because he had Parkinson’s. And he started blacking out and he just didn’t leave the car one day after him and my mom had a fight and he’d had enough. And he was wearing a lifeline bracelet and it went off. And that saved his life. And he said to me, “Bill, I didn’t press that button. I just didn’t press that button.” So he believed in God. He believed that there was something greater than himself and that’s what he kind of devoted his life to.

SARA: That’s lovely. I want to shift our conversation a little bit, talk a little bit about your writing career?

BILL: Oh, yeah.

SARA: Because it’s very interesting. So you wrote for National Lampoon which some folks . . .

BILL: The Magazine.

SARA: Right, I was going to say, some folks might not know that National Lampoon began as a magazine which then launched the films like Animal House, Caddy Shack, and of course the National Lampoon Vacation series. And also gave us some of these various funny comedians of our time. So that must’ve been quite an experience. How did you find your way into that work?

BILL: Through the person I was mentioning earlier, Liz. Before she transitioned, had set up that connection and my writing partner at the time – and even I write with him now – and Liz, we all wrote for National Lampoon magazine. So everything is about networking and referrals. That’s how Hollywood works. You work with people who you know and like.

SARA: But speak to me a little bit about why comedy writing? What was it about that that got you or that made you want to say yes to this?

BILL: Well, it has to be before that. And keep in mind, both my parents were very, very funny. The two of them were just hysterical. I ran a sketch comedy show in Boston and New York called Heavily Medicated Fairy Tales, which was like a Monty-Python-esque type thing. I was originally called The Act. And we traveled with an R&B band. And I had a cast originally of five. And I’ve always loved Saturday Night Live and I’ve always loved National Lampoon and all of that. So that’s kind of how it got started. And I also worked for the public theater on the Charles River in Boston. And then I actually got a call from a friend of mine from college who said, “Bill, my boyfriend (who was in the band “Tavares” at the time, which is an old New England band) wanted to put something together and wanted to know if you’d like to be a part of it.” And then I was like, “I would love to write sketch comedy.” So I cast it and then we became regulars at Catch a Rising Star in Boston and at the Duplex in the Village in New York. And the Duplex is kind of a key historical place. It’s still there. It’s where Woody Allen did his comedy. Bette Midler performed there. And that was a big deal. So I ran that for a couple of years. We played a lot of colleges. And I was in corporate America at the time. And corporate America got a kick out of it. “Bill’s our creative guy.” And they’d all come to the shows. It was so funny. And I had a client, Enterprise Rent-a-Car was actually my client at the time when I was a headhunter. And I hired like 125 people for them. So they gave me a van. And I would use the van, rented it, they’d give it to me, I didn’t own it. And I’d pack my actors and our keyboard player, we would drive to New York, four hours, hang out for an hour, do the show, hang out for another hour, and drive back.

SARA: Wow

BILL: And so that kind of morphed into writing for National Lampoon, and then we wrote for a kid’s show on PBS called Dittydoodle Works. We wrote for a talking crayon. 

SARA: Okay.

BILL: It was like Don Rickles. A little bit irreverent and harsh. And then that morphed into doing a series of short films. I wrote, produced and directed several short films. There was one called Cake Head about a man born with a head of cake. And that was a series. And they showed up at these weird film festivals and stuff. And then it just kept manifesting. I started writing screen plays and picked up managers and optioned a bunch. And then, when I landed in LA, I ended up writing the musical.

SARA: The Paradise.

BILL: Paradise. And at the same time, sold some scripts to Lifetime that were those thrillers. So it was just odd how it happened. But then Paradise did really well in LA and then I had two long runs. And then it went to the Austin Playhouse in Texas. And then, over COVID, an indie film producer who used to run Robert Duvall's company for years – I’m aging myself again – and did 44 feature films said, “Bill, I saw it. I loved it. What if we turned it into a low-budget feature?” So it’s very different. It’s kind of stage, meets film, meets bluegrass.

SARA: So what inspired a bluegrass musical, because we haven't had a lot of those in recent years other than Steve Martin’s Bright Star. So how did you get satirical comedy in a bluegrass musical? What led to that?

BILL: Cliff Wagner. Cliff Wagner is a composer and a bluegrass performer. You can Google him; he’s on Spotify. He’s on everything. And he was building sets at a theater here in LA, because he’s a carpenter by trade, and a musician. And he knew my writing partner Tommy from Boston. And he said he wanted to do like a modern-day Hee Haw. And they had asked me if I wanted to be a part of it. And I was adapting a book which will be, being shopped around town right now actually called Twenty Nine Gifts even though it was years ago. Everything runs its course. And I was like, “Hee Haw. I don’t think so.” And then they just kept harping on me and I said, “Alright. Send me what you’ve got.” And there was no sense of a script. There were a couple of jokes. But the music, there were only at that time like four songs. And that hit me. The songs were like, “Oh my God. He is good.” So I started working with them and then helped them construct, put together, the script. And Cliff, who was the composer, pitched it to the artistic director at the Ruskin Theatre Group – I always get confused, Ruskin Group Theatre or Ruskin Theatre Group – and they thought, “Okay. This guy builds our sets, why are we talking to him?” So we did kind of an open audition for them and they fell in love with it. And that’s where it was developed. And we ran for, oh I don’t know, six to eight months in LA. Rave reviews. And it was very irreverent and over the top. And then my producers at the time brought in all these Broadway people to turn it into a Broadway show to take it to New York. And we learned a lot. And they just gutted it. They tried to turn it into a Broadway show. And it’s not a Broadway show. So, although we learned a lot, and we had a ten-day workshop at the Brode Theater here in LA, they still wanted it. My producers were very upset. We were upset. So we just kind of took what we wrote and ran. I mean, they brought in Tony winners, the whole deal. And then it kind of sat for a little bit. And then it went up again in 2018. And then it went to Austin, the Austin Playhouse in Texas in 2019, which is a regional theater. And then COVID. So I ran another sketch show out here in LA at the Ruskin. And right across from the Ruskin, there’s a little airport. So the show was called – and I’m not swearing – the show is called “The AASS Show” And it was The Airport Adjacent Sketch Show, AASS. And that was doing well and they wanted to bring that back. And then COVID once again. So then, a year or two into COVID, maybe a year into COVID, is when the other producer, Brad Wilson, came up to me and said, “Bill, what about doing this?” I raised the capital, had never done that before. And we made what’s considered an ultra-low-budget feature film under a SAG contract. And the cast has two gay actors in it. Diane Delano who had about 125 credits, been on a ton of shows, she just passed away from pancreatic cancer. She plays a crazy character named Cyndi. And then Eddy Singletary Jr. plays the mayor. We lead the audience to believe that he’s gay and that everyone thinks it’s a secret. When in his mind, it’s not. So it’s kind of a satire and he’s raising a black son that he knows is not his child and has been hiding that secret from his son who thought his mom had passed away. And it’s not the case at all. And we literally turned it into a laugh-out-loud song. And it’s an interesting take. And this one line that I absolutely love – he’s also a germaphobe, the mayor – and he comes out being a germaphobe because he wears dishwashing gloves all the time. It’s a very weird comedy. It’s a lot of fun. 19 original songs by the way. And so he finally appears to be coming out to his son, but it’s about being a germaphobe. And he’s like, “That’s all. That’s all you’re going to tell me?” Because they’re all waiting for him to verbally come out. And as he leaves the stage, he turns and says, “Do you think it would’ve been easier if I just told them I was gay?”

SARA: There it is.

BILL: And he is gay. And he knows it. And it’s just a funny, funny play on it. So we poke fun at everybody. We don’t make fun of anyone. So it is about poking fun at how society sees things a certain way. And there’s a religious tone to the film that has some twists and turns.

SARA: So I’ll make sure to put a link in the show notes for folks. So if you’re a lover of National Lampoon or bluegrass, or both, or musicals.

BILL: Oh, you’ve got to. And I just have to just share because the first time we did it, it’s a picture of a minister holding a Bible looking over a small town. And people didn’t know what it was about. And church groups were coming. And when you hear some of the songs, I was like, “Oh my God.” There’s one song, I’m not going to say it on this podcast because you don’t want me to swear. But I was worried. And instead, they got it because they stayed to the end and the whole thing ties up. I was at an after party and this very good-looking young man came up to me and he said, “I’m a student at the Ruskin School of Acting (because they have an acting school) I almost left after the first act.” He goes, “I’m an evangelical.” And he goes, “And I’m so glad that I didn’t because I now understand how you pulled it all together and it was brilliant.” And to hear that from somebody who would take the Bible a certain way and not understand that they’re walking into a musical comedy – I mean, if you’ve ever seen Book of Mormon. I loved Book of Mormon. And when I read what’s called the book, and it’s in book form, the script, and I read that and I went, “I’ve got nothing to worry about.”

SARA: Right.

BILL: Because that was so over the top and my Mormon friends love that play.

SARA: That’s hilarious. When I’ve taken folks to see it who are not familiar with it, I do feel like I have to give them a little content warning like, “Be prepared to hear some things that might feel a little salacious to you.”

BILL: And everybody needs to let it go, you know. I mean, I guarantee if Jesus came back tomorrow, the first things out of his mouth would be, “That’s not what I meant.”

SARA: Right.

BILL: You know what I mean. People take it in such a way. And being part of the Agape International Spiritual Center like I am, which is a new-thought church, there were a lot of theologians who go deep on the Bible. And there is nothing in the Bible that says being gay or trans is bad. Nothing.

SARA: Nothing.

BILL: Even the whole term, “Man shall not lay with man,” has nothing to do with the gay community. It has to do with when countries would attack other countries it was about – this was horrible but it was written by men, and this is the interpretation that I heard from a couple of theologians, whether they’re right or not – was about don’t demoralize the men by sleeping with them. But it’s okay to sleep with the women. And the Bible is extremely misogynistic.

SARA: Extremely. And it was written in an era, in a particular political system. And it very much is reflective of that time.

BILL: And it is a good – I mean the stories and how it’s set up – is a good way to live your life in a loving manner. But the teaching of Jesus, I mean, I just hate how people interpret it for their own gain.

SARA: Yeah. Yeah. It’s become even more divisive which is really unsettling. I’m curious. I’m going to go back to the screen writing for a moment.

BILL: Sure.

SARA: As a writer and as one now living in Los Angeles, I’m curious how you look at Hollywood’s slow embrace of queer characters and queer life beyond the obvious stereotypes. So I think we look at Hollywood and we see especially 90’s, early 2000’s, the obvious stereotypes like Jack from Will and Grace. And many of us remember when Ellen DeGeneres came out. And while it was groundbreaking, there was a ton of backlash. And it just felt like Hollywood’s been kind of slow to embrace queer characters as just characters, just regular people.

BILL: Because people need to realize, it’s called “Show Business” for a reason. So they gauge what’s going on in the market, who’s buying tickets. That’s all they care about is the bottom line. They really do. It’s shifted so much. As they call them, “Suits,” the suits run everything and all they care about is the budget because now everything’s run by stockholders. So if Disney wants to have their stock go up, they’re going to gauge what the audiences are watching, what’s going on in politics, and that’s the only reason. They’re not trying to change the community or anything like that. The independent film market, different story.

SARA: Of course. Of course. Yes. But they’re outside of that system.

BILL: It’s money.

SARA: But I do still think that the Hollywood suits are – have been for a long time, I think it’s shifting – but back in the day, were largely white men who really didn’t understand the changing culture in the youth demographics. So, where their money was coming from, I think they were kind of slow to understand the evolution of youth culture and that audience being such a high market.

BILL: Once again, I’m not running a studio so I don’t understand all of it. But just based on my experience, I can only share from my experience. When I was writing for Lifetime, I couldn’t show anybody smoking. No gay characters, Hell no. This was LMN, which was Lifetime Movie Network. They have shifted a little bit. Like in the script that they bought from me and produced and changed, it was originally called “You can never go home again.” And A&E loved that title. I kept being told, “A&E loves that title.” I got the shooting script that they shot in Arizona and it was called “Stalked by My Ex.” OK. I’m like, “What?” So it turned out they have all Stalked by series. It’s Stalked by My Mother in Law, Stalked by My Doctor. I mean, they threw it into that category. I had no say over it. They had already paid me for the script. And that’s what happens. So it depends on who’s running things. But I do know people get skittish. Politics right now, the country’s split down the middle. Based on Trump winning, it was more than split down the middle over to his side. So they’re going to look at, “how am I going to make enough money for my stockholders>” again. And then they have to look at the percentages like in the trans community, I know the numbers are different than if it was to say people in Middle America. Who is their audience? So the only group that doesn’t think as much about that are the indie filmmakers. And there are a lot of great indie films out there. That’s what I do. And we have to do our own marketing and our own promotions and the whole thing. But we also need people to buy tickets. I hate to say it. I just feel like the consciousness of this country has, we are capitalist.

SARA: Oh, yeah.

BILL: It bugs the hell out of me every day. I wish that as capitalists, the leaders would understand that we can be capitalists but we should be capitalists supporting socialist-driven programs. Like Social Security is Socialist. Unemployment is. Even the military, if you look at how it’s broken down, would fall under socialism. So people get caught up at this word. But in regards to the gay community and stuff, if you notice, all those films are made by independents. The stereotype of Jack McFarland and Leslie Jordan and them should not be cancelled, should not be condemned because that’s who Leslie Jordan was. I knew Leslie Jordan. Ru Paul is being Ru Paul. So the gay community is made up of lots of different types of people. And being effeminate is one of them. And we shouldn’t be dismissing it that “Oh, it’s a stereotype character.” No. It’s who they are, like the mayor in my film. He is this way. He just added a Leslie Jordan twist on it and made him southern. But it’s who he is. So if we start cancelling people because of that, then really what we’re cancelling is people being individuals within the gay community. We should just be accepting of who they are. And whatever Hollywood’s putting out there – I mean, like right now on Hulu the new show with Nathan Lane and them – some of the critics have ripped it. Other people I’ve talked to that’ve seen it love it. It’s entertainment. It’s entertainment. And you can slip in social impacts as you do it. But it’s show business. It’s not a non-profit trying to spread the word on something. That’s just not going to happen in this town. And it hasn’t for years. The closest I’ve, if you look back at the history of the 60’s and 70’s, studios would make their blockbuster in order the make their passion project.

SARA: Yes.

BILL: It’s not that way anymore at all and it changed in the 80’s when everything became – if you look at it, it’s when Reagan brought in the head of Merrill Lynch to be his Chief of Staff. The whole game changed from that point on.

SARA: The beginning of the end, regards to economic policy, sure.

BILL: It really was in regards to profits because that’s all they seemed to care about. Just my take on it.

SARA: I wonder, Bill, what would you want younger queer folks to know about aging as a queer person?

BILL: Know that they’re going to get there at some point.

SARA: Do you have any wisdom about that?

BILL: Yeah. Be respectful of people. Back in -- and I’m just sharing information that I’ve heard over the years that spoke to me – gay people, before organized religion, were looked at as being mystics, shaman, and within villages, they were the go-between, between the husband and wife to help both come together because they could tap into both sides of who they were. They were looked at being that way. And it was only due to border wars that that was kind of shifted. And they’re like, “We need more people because of this country here. So let’s shift things around here that it’s not good to be gay,” when it is because we look at life differently, alright. So I think the best wisdom I can get is know where you came from, do some research, learn about people that came out, or the gay community, in the 50’s, the 60’s, the 70’s, the 80’s, the 90’s and look at things that we’ve had to overcome and understand that you have more power than you think. It’s a matter of being confident knowing that – I have a friend that didn’t come out until he was 62. His parents knew. His family knew. The Catholic church, for some reason that’s what affected him. And even the other day he said to me – and now he has Alzhiemers and he’s 64 – and he said something about – I’m paraphrasing – but it was something about, “So, do you think it’s easier to come out now?” He's blaming himself, “I wish I had come out earlier.” We don’t want to live with shame and guilt. We’re here to be who we are. So if anything, claim it because the homophobes, or the people that are racist in any way, they look for the weak link. They look for the member who’s left the herd. They really are. So it’s a matter of when you’re confident about who you are, and you don’t have to put it in someone’s face who you know is going to react a certain way, but you can still be who you are and still be humble and confident at the same time, you know. My parents didn’t like to talk a lot about it. And I didn’t have to push it in their face. They knew who I was. And when it was important, then I brought it up. It’s like, pick your battles would probably be the best advice I can give. “Are you willing to die on the hill for that?”

SARA: Yeah. Thank you. That’s great. I also appreciate the “Claim who you are. Claim it.”

BILL: Claim it. You’ve got to. And that’s why you’re here. And it's okay if you change your mind on certain things too, like who you’re going to vote for or who you are as a person because we grow, we evolve. I mean, I’ve met more men and they get caught up – some people get caught up on “Am I bi?” I tried being bisexual. For me, it’s like who am I going to invite to the prom. It was a big problem. So I figured, you know what, let’s be honest with who I am and I felt more this way, and respect everybody else for their choices.

SARA: Ah, yeah.

BILL: I just wish we’d all respect each other more and be more compassionate with each other.

SARA: Yeah.

BILL: Older, younger, gay, straight, trans, whatever, just across the board because we’re all energy sources. That’s all we are, you know, as Reverend Skip would say and he was quoting – I forgot who he was quoting. Well, Ru Paul for one, “We’re all just in drag.”

SARA: Yes. That’s one of my favorite quotes.

BILL: Yeah. You know because we really are.

SARA: We are.

BILL: So try to meet somebody right where they’re at.

SARA: That’s great advice.

BILL: If you’re dealing with a parent or a friend or a relative who you can tell is having a problem with you, just be the best version of yourself.

SARA: Yeah. That’s great. So this has been lovely. It’s been a delightful conversation.

BILL: Same here.

SARA: And as we wrap up our time together here, I have two questions that I like to ask my guests at the end of every episode. And the first has to do with the Mama Dragons name. The Mama Dragons name came out of this idea of a fierce protection of our kids, our queer kids. And so I like to ask my guests, what is it that you are fierce about?

BILL: I’m fierce about understanding that we all, as a community, have more power than we think. That, for myself, I can’t rely on the government for anything. I just can’t. They’re going to upset me at different times. I believe our consciousness should be totally different. So it’s being fierce about the fact that as a community, whether it’s gay or your local community, as people, we have more power to make change in this country than anything else because everything has been changed just by the people. The wall between East and West Germany came down by the people, not by Reagan. It was people without the internet, just meeting at coffee shops talking about it. Apartheid came down through the people. Civil rights came about by the people applying pressure to the government to make a change. So we can do the same thing when it comes to gay rights, trans rights, across the board. Whatever we’re looking to do. Look at gay marriage. That came about through the people. So know that you’re part of a very powerful community. And that’s what I’m fierce about. I hope that we understand as voters that we can make change.

SARA: Yes. Thank you. That is great. My final question for you is what is bringing you joy right now? I want to focus on joy at the end of the episode because we sure do need it in these times.

BILL: It used to be my dogs. And they both have since passed away. So I’m stalking my neighbors’ dogs all the time. And they see me coming and they’re like, “Look it’s Bill.” So animals. My backyard, and I don’t have a giant backyard, is just filled with squirrels and cats and crows and possums. Being in nature of any sort whether I’m walking the beach or sitting underneath the Chinese elm tree in my backyard looking more like Buddha every day. That’s what brings me joy.

SARA: That’s beautiful

BILL: More than anything, it’s being around nature. Of course, meeting with friends and things like that. But that, and probably going to the theater, brings me joy.

SARA: Oh, yes. I would imagine. That’s beautiful. Thank you, Bill.

BILL: Thank you.

SARA: Thanks so much for your time, and your work in the world. It's been a wonderful chance to have this conversation and get to know you a little better. I appreciate it.

BILL: Thank you so much. I really enjoyed being here as well, and you made me cry. But anyway, that was good.

SARA: That means it was a good interview.

BILL: It was a good cry.

SARA: Thanks so much for joining us here In the Den. Did you know that Mama Dragons offers an eLearning program called Parachute? This is an interactive learning platform where you can learn more about how to affirm, support, and celebrate the LGBTQ+ people in your life. Learn more at mamadragons.org/parachute. Or find the link in the episode show notes under links.

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