Authentic Selves: Celebrating Trans and Nonbinary People

As parents of queer kids, we want our children to live boldly and truthfully, to become their most authentic selves, not just accepted, but celebrated, for who they are. We want that same freedom and fullness of self-expression for every member of our families. So often trans and nonbinary people’s stories are told only through the lens of their struggles and challenges, including their political battles for legal rights, but trans and nonbinary people live rich and fulfilling lives full of joy and community too. Today In the Den, Sara sits down with special guest Joey Morelli, contributing author to Authentic Selves: Celebrating Trans and Nonbinary People, to offer a window into the real lives, joys, and resilience of trans and nonbinary people—and the families who stand proudly beside them.

Special Guest: Jozeppi A. Morelli 

Jozeppi A. Morelli is an Indigenous transgender queer man who is a retired law enforcement officer/911 World Trade Center First Responder from New York City. He has been initiated into the Hopi Sand Clan since 2021. In his retirement, he has found a second career being a gender educator. Author and public speaker, Jozeppi is one of the authors in the new book and exhibit: Authentic Selves: Celebrating Trans and Nonbinary People created by Peggy Gillespie of Family Diversity Projects and published by Skinner House Books. He has been promoting the Authentic Selves photo exhibit and book across the country on radio shows, podcasts, and at in-person events.

Links from the Show:

• Authentic Selves: https://bookshop.org/p/books/authentic-selves-celebrating-trans-and-nonbinary-people-and-their-families/18955703?ean=9781558968967&next=t
• Dance to Heal interview with Jozeppi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMr8F6HIK8E 
• Article about Authentic Selves: https://www.uua.org/pressroom/press-releases/authentic-selves-highlights-joy 
• Join Mama Dragons today here: www.mamadragons.org 

In the Den is made possible by generous donors like you. Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today at www.mamadragons.org. 

Transcript

SARA: Hi everyone. Welcome to In the Den with Mama Dragons. A podcast and community to support, educate, and empower parents on the journey of raising happy and healthy LGBTQ+ humans. I’m your host, Sara LaWall. I’m a Mama Dragon myself and an advocate for our queer community. And I’m so glad to be part of this wild and wonderful parenting journey with all of you. Thanks for joining us. We’re so glad you’re here.

As parents of queer kids, we want our children to live boldly and truthfully, and become their most authentic selves, not just accepted but celebrated for who they are. And we want that same freedom and fullness of self-expression for every member of our families. So often trans and nonbinary folks’ stories are told only through the lens of their struggles and challenges, including all the political battles for legal rights, but trans and nonbinary people live beautiful, rich, and fulfilling lives full of joy and community.

That’s why we are so excited today to be spotlighting the powerful book Authentic Selves: Celebrating Trans and Nonbinary People and Their Families. This book was developed in collaboration with the National PFLAG Organization and Transgender Legal Defense & Education Fund. And it’s really groundbreaking. It has depictions of joy and community in this beautiful collection of stories with stunning full page color photographs. And it offers us a window into the real lives, joys, and resilience of our trans and nonbinary friends and neighbors and families who stand proudly beside them.

And our guest today is one of the contributors to the book, sharing his own incredible story and journey. I am excited to welcome Jozeppi Morelli, one of the contributors of Authentic Selves. Joey, as many of us know him, is an Indigenous Transgender queer man who is a retired law enforcement officer and 911 World Trade Center First Responder originally from New York City. In his retirement he has found a second career being a Gender Educator, author and public speaker, and now lives in Sedona, Arizona. Joey, my friend, welcome to In the Den.

JOEY: Thank you, Reverend Sara. Thank you so much for inviting me.

SARA: I’m so excited to have this conversation with you. I hope you can start by giving us a little bit of the back story of the book. How did this whole book and project come into being?

JOEY: Well, the Family Diversity Project has been doing work like this for 30 years. Peggy Gillespie and Gigi Kyser started this over 30 years ago. Their very first book was Love Make a Family which was about lesbian and gay folks and the fact that they wanted to have families. And they also do, along with the book, a photo exhibit. And so they took photos of the families and the photo exhibit travels around the country. And that was probably the very first time that they encountered some issues and legislation, really, about whether or not folks who are against showing those types of photos of lesbian, gay people, and their family. But they’ve been doing this for 30 years. They also did Lesbian Gays in Faith Community as Ministers. They’ve done immigration photo ops. And during COVID, Peggy Gillespie saw what was happening in the trans community and said, “I’d really like to put together a book showing that trans folks are wonderful human beings.” I tell people, “I’m not just my gender. I’m a grandparent. I’m a parent. I’m a partner. I’m a friend.” And people forget that, that we have things more in common than you think. We all want to be seen and be heard and be loved and given the opportunity to thrive and we’re no different. And I think that is important. And I think Peggy and Gigi – Gigi is the photographer and Peggy’s the journalist part – and so she did. She put out an email to people about this book saying, “I want to put this book together.” She went to Skinner House Press which is owned by the Unitarian Universalists. And they accepted the proposal. And so a friend of mine said they’re looking for trans people to tell their stories. And I lived a very private life and so I did not, at that point, really talk about things. And I socially transitioned since 2011 but I didn’t physically transition until 2021, when I was 54. And so there’s a lot of things, misinformation out there about… I call this a soul journey because it’s not a body journey. We have to figure out who we are, where that fits in society and life, in our work, in our job, and a home, and even in our God. And when we’re ready to lose everything, is when we decide to invite people in. And so it was time for me to – as I was going around at the time – I was talking at events. I held a big event in Sedona, a Transgender Day Summit. And we had everybody from Arizona come. And so I was already speaking about things. But it was using he/him pronouns and I was female bodied. And people were sort of like, “Okay. Help me with this.” So I think we’re having that type of summit and having different gender-nonconforming folks, gender expansive folks there from different communities, it was helpful for people to see. And we had a 9-year-old who spoke, who knew who she was at a very young age, which is great.

SARA: Well, that’s the beauty of the book, really, together with the gorgeous photographs that just give you a real sense of the heart and soul of the people whose stories you’re reading. But the diversity of stories, of people featured, young and old, and different ethnicities and cultures and backgrounds. And there’s something really delightful about just paging through it and getting that sense of things. That, like you said, there’s no single story for this journey. Joey, I’m curious if you can share with us some of your own story and journey into finding your authentic self. You mentioned you didn’t really fully transition until 54. So can you take us down that road a little bit?

JOEY: You know, I lived as an out lesbian. I always knew that I was attracted to women. I lived as an out lesbian for a very long time. It wasn’t until around 2009 when a black trans woman told me her story that the bricks fell on my head. And I had been already wearing men’s clothing and being “the male” in the relationship. And I always felt that there was a piece missing. I’m adopted so I felt like maybe that was what the piece was. But when she talked about her story, and I thought, “Oh wow. Okay. I get this.” And so I was in the police department and it was still considered a psychological disorder. So I could not physically transition. I had a long conversation about it with my doctor in 2011. It took me two years to figure this out and what that meant. But I could not physically start anything until I was out of the police department  because it was still a psychological disorder.

SARA: Did you socially transition in the police department?

JOEY: Yeah. You know, I was already calling myself Joey. I had changed my middle name to Joey. And I was going by Joey around. And I felt like people knew who I was. And so when I retired in 2014, there was a freedom then. And really, I have to say that it was, I was still in that space of, “Okay. If I’m going to do this, what does that look like?” And so I really started as an anti-racist and listening to Reverend Doctor Jacqui Lewis, and listening to some of the strong black leaders. And some of our prejudice that, I felt like in order to transition from being a white privileged female-bodied person to a white, trans male body person, there was work I needed to do around that type of situation. And so it was important for me to look in the mirror and say, “Okay. Who am I going to be? What do I bring into the room?” And I’m a law enforcement officer.

SARA: Right.

JOEY: And so what do I bring to the table? When I walk into a room, what do I bring there? And so that’s how I started. And unfortunately, I was also dealing with health issues from 9/11. And so it took me a while. So I showed up in Sedona, Arizona, in 2017 full of tumors and lesions and nodules. And I did a total detox for two years. So it took me a while. But this is who I am. I would tell people, “I have he/him pronouns in a female body.” And it took them a while to figure it out. And I think that that’s what people think about is, not all of us get surgery. Only 26% of us get surgery.

SARA: Right.

JOEY: It’s astronomically expensive. And thank goodness I fought in 2014, 2015 to get our coverage in New York City to cover gender-affirming surgery. And it was covered.

SARA: Wow.

JOEY: But $110,000 bill, I mean, it’s astronomically expensive. And so I think that once I made that decision – it was during COVID – my doctor said, “Okay. You have a window that if you want to have gender-affirming top surgery, this is the time to do it.” And I walked in there in March of 2021 expecting to wait a year. And they said, “We have an opening in May,” in two months. And so it happened. And it transformed my life. It made me feel like I was me, finally. And I think that helped me, then, go out because I have since that time gone out on the road and promoted Authentic Selves and the photo exhibit. I’ve driven across the country since 2023. And visited your church in Boise, Idaho, hosted me, which was a wonderful event we did. And I think I’ve grown as a person because it was important for me, not to just talk about my story and talk about the book, but to hear other people’s stories and what’s affecting the folks in that space. I’ve gone to Texas and Florida and South Dakota and Iowa and Minnesota and North Carolina and New York and Virginia and California. I’ve been all over. “I want to hear what you’re struggling with. I want you to create community here!” because I think that that’s the whole point of the book is that it is different ages in the book, different races, different religions, different cultures. It shows that we can all come together as community.

SARA: It’s so lovely. I gave a copy of it to my kiddo because I wanted her to see regular people, like you, living their most authentic selves and recognize there is such a broad depth of people who are having some similar experience in life that she’s having, that she’s just not alone. And I really love that about the book and about the work you’re doing in promoting the book and crossing the country. But coming out at 54 and really making that final transition slowly in life is a real powerful testament to resilience. And I know you’re not the only one. I’ve heard lots of stories of folks who have finally come out later in life. But I’m curious, what would you say to others who might feel like it’s too late for them?

JOEY: It’s never too late to be your authentic self. No matter who you are, it’s never too late to be your authentic self. It’s never too late to look in the mirror and say, “Okay. What do I need to do to be me? And what have I been allowing other things to come in to stop me from being me?” Because that’s a big thing. And a lot of it is fear. And a lot of it is what society has said to us. I’ve met people who are in their 70’s here that are finally coming out and saying, “This is who I am.” And that’s the beauty part of it. You’re never too old. And I think that that’s important. As we get older, I mean, my mother was still alive when I had my surgery and she never would call me by Joey. It was only my birth name. She would never acknowledge who I was until only a few hours before she passed. And we make that decision on whether we stay in people’s lives or not, and I chose to stay in her life because she was 85 at the time. And she called me. She said, “You need to get here.” She lived in New Jersey. And so I did. I drove from Arizona to New Jersey in two days. And I got there and she kept calling me on the phone. “Are you coming? Are you coming?” And she came out of the ambulance on Friday, on Saturday night I was sitting with her and her caregiver and she popped up and she said, “Hey Joey.” And those were the last words she ever spoke.

SARA: Wow.

JOEY: And she passed on Monday. And so she gave me the greatest gift. And so I always tell people there’s hope. She gave me a gift to say OK, it’s time to go across this country and talk about things.

SARA: That’s beautiful. I love that story. Thank you for sharing it with us. It is very hopeful and it is very sweet to hear that she finally was able to get there, even though it was right before she died.

JOEY: Yep.

SARA: And there are so many incredible stories in this book. The photographs make it so beautiful. I remember randomly opening it up not too long ago and there’s Congresswoman Sara McBride featured before she was even elected to Congress, when she was just serving in her own state house. What are some of the other stories in the book that you especially love?

JOEY: Well, what’s great about the book is that the last year I was touring, I made it a mission of mine to meet other authors. And so we did a lot of events on Zoom where we would zoom in to libraries and to schools. And so I would organize those and I would see them on Zoom. But I said, “I want to meet them in person.” And when I met them in person, I met Fresh Lev White. And I met Lana Patel, and Rimi. She was great. And I’ve met Angelica Castro. And so it was really great for me. And of course Joseph Burwell and Tam Burns down in North Carolina. And I think that was really important for me because their stories were so… Lev White is such a presence in calmness and meditation and also gender expansive. And so it’s wonderful to hear them speak about their journeys in person. We did a great panel together in San Francisco at the San Francisco Library. And I think it’s just beautiful. Their stories are beautiful. But I think certainly Angelle, her story’s great. But each story I think brings… And I got to meet different people and I think it’s important that as we look at the stories, you can see each of our journeys have been different. But what has been awesome is to see what kind of lives we now are leading.

SARA: Yeah.

JOEY: I think almost everybody in the book are activists in some shape or form. Even including the parents. They are involved in the movement and I think to see that, is important and to understand that we may have struggled – and it is. It’s a struggle for all of us – but what a joyful life we’re living now. And no matter what this administration says to us, no matter what happens in the world, we stay in that center and we’re still doing and we’re still being and we’re still loving. And I think that’s important.

SARA: Yeah. Very important. Do you think that activism comes with the territory over time with trans, nonbinary, gender expansive folks, and their family members, particularly over these last several years, and particularly now as we see the wave of attacks just knocking people over. It seems to me like folks can’t help themselves. It’s the only way forward.

JOEY: Yes. I believe that we all become activists because we have to. And I think sometimes, and I often say this when I’m in a group of our community, is that then we don’t get to talk about what’s really what important to us, because we’re so busy advocating for other people and our rights. And we’re missing our health, what does that look like? Wellness checks and things like that. They don’t give you a manual after you go through gender-affirming surgery. They don’t give you a manual. What does that look like? “Okay, you’ve had it.” What does that look like now?

SARA: Let’s talk about that a little bit because you and I have talked a little bit about selfcare in the midst of the work, and the intensity of the work in this time that feels just so overwhelming and challenging. How do you balance that? Give us some tips. What do you do? And also, I know from talking with you, that it’s hit and miss. Right? No one is particularly great at it. I want to just dispel the myth that “Joey’s got it all figured out.”

JOEY: I think it’s important to do selfcare. And when I say selfcare, sometimes you have to shut down and carve out that time for you, whether it’s a massage, whether you’re just sitting at home and not answering the phone and emails. But also, I think it’s important to understand the body you’re in and what that looks like for selfcare. And your wellness checks and what do the hormones do in your body? What does happen to you, because things are happening? And when they say “There’s no gender care,” all of a sudden, people say, “I’m not going to the doctor.” Well, we do. We have to go, as much as we don’t want to. We have to make sure that we’re staying healthy and eating right and sleeping. A lot of us don’t sleep. Sleeping right, exercising, we don’t take that time sometimes and I think we suffer from that and then that’s when you get burnout. I’ve noticed it’s May, and around March, April, people were burning out already. And I can understand that. But you have to say, “I love you, but I just need time for myself.” And I often say to folks, “Joy is an act of resistance. Go out and have some fun. You don’t have to tell anybody who you are. You just go out and enjoy yourself, an evening of bowling, or cocktails, whatever you want to do, game night, whatever. Just go have fun.” And that’s the part that we miss sometimes.

SARA: For sure. I think it is the part we miss sometimes, especially in these times. And I wonder if you’ll reflect with me about this moment that we’re in. Because, when you and I first met last year and we hosted a big event, so much has changed in just a year in our country. In my own state of Idaho this year in the legislature was even worse than last year with attacks on the trans community. I know it was true in your state. It’s true in a lot of places. How are you thinking about all of that, processing it, making sense of where we are right now in the work that you’re doing?

JOEY: Traveling from 2023 to now, my last stop was right before election in South Dakota. I knew that we were in trouble. It was obvious. And I think that’s what’s the hardest part for me is that when it happened, the way it went down, it was no longer an “us” and “them.” And I felt like that no matter what I said, no matter what I was saying to them, people could look me in the face and say, “Yeah. I hear you.” But what was happening and it was building out there against us. And so, when it happened and people said to me, “What do we do?” I said, “What did they do in the civil rights era?” Three of the most significant people in my life are from survivors of the Indian schools here in Arizona. What did they do? And I think that we have to look at history and the history of this country and it has to be an intergenerational movement. And we have to listen to each other and listen to the stories. I mean, forget about women’s rights. We have people talking about what they used to do marching in the 60’s. Those are the stories. But we have to close the gap and be able to work together and come together. And that’s what I’m trying to do here in Arizona is to get people to understand. Especially, they look at me as an elder at 58. And get them to understand, I’ve lived a long life. I’ve seen a lot of stuff. I’ve lived through the AIDS crisis. We’ve been there. Our community went through the Lavender Scare. We’ve been through Stonewall. We’ve been through the AIDS Crisis. And we always rose through the ashes. And so I say that, is that it will happen again if we’re willing to come together and stop with “It’s just about you.” It’s about all of us, and what that looks like. And intergenerationally, it’s about all of us. It’s not just about young folks. And so I think that’s what’s important is that we pay attention and we listen to each other, of experience that someone may have. And an older person may not be able to go out and march, but, “Hey, younger person, this is what worked.” And they go out and do it. And I think that’s what’s important.

SARA: Yeah. I think that there’s a lot of opportunity for us across the generations to bring our own creativity and ideas and selves into the mix. I think you said it earlier, just as there’s no one story for a trans person. There’s no one way to fight the attacks on human rights. There’s lots of ways.

JOEY: Yes.

SARA: You’re a parent.

JOEY: Yes.

SARA: You’re a parent and a grandparent.

JOEY: Yes.

SARA: Talk to us a little bit about navigating the role of parenthood in the context of gender identity? How has your experience shaped your understanding of parenting and family support and acceptance?

JOEY: Well, I think all the children that I have, I co-parented. And most of them were at different parts of their life for different reasons. Some had no parents. Some had only one parent. And so I sort of stepped in and helped. And the oldest two are now, have been the most significant two in my life. My oldest son and my daughter. And so it’s been interesting. And what’s interesting for me, is my oldest son’s child is gender expansive.

SARA: Wow.

JOEY: Yeah. And my oldest son is having a really hard time with their child but didn’t have a hard time with me.

SARA: Interesting.

JOEY: And although they struggled and this just happened a few months ago when I was in New York. I said, “Something’s going on. Something’s bothering you. What’s up?” I could tell every time I talked to him on the phone. He lives in New York City in China Town. And he said to me, “Can I still call you Mama Dukes.” Because he always called me Mama Dukes. And I looked at him and I said, “Yeah. That’s fine.” And so we go out there, I’m with a beard. He calls me Mama Dukes and people are looking. And it’s okay. And I’m glad he felt okay. And I think with him talking to me it helped him, then reach out to his child. And my grandchild was missing for a while. And finally we found them and, not accepted by their parents, and so they went out, in Nebraska. And thank goodness one of my son’s old roommates took them in and she’s doing very well. And I think that’s important. And so having that conversation with me helped him have that conversation with her.

SARA: That is so interesting.

JOEY: And I think that that’s important. As, the older we are, the more flexibility we have. I think we’ve been through it all and where some folks are a little different. Yeah, no problem, Mama Dukes where my daughter, she had no problem. This is who Joey is and that’s it. And so I’ve been very blessed that way. I have mostly a chosen family because, after my mother passed, I have no family. My siblings and I do not speak. And I have a few cousins that stayed in my life. So it’s important. And I say that to parents when I went to PFLAG because I went to PFLAG National. I say to parents, “Understand that when your child comes out – whether it be their child or their grandchild or nephew or niece or a friend – it’s a lot for them to tell you, to invite you in. And so the only thing you say is, Okay. I love you. I may not understand right now but we’ll work with this because I love you. And that’s it.”

SARA: That’s it.

JOEY: And that’s it. And I go around, folks ask me to come because the Unitarian Universalists made the Authentic Selves the Common Read. And so I’ve had a few folks ask me to come and sit on their book study and talk about the book. And someone asked me, “I want to reach out to my nephew. And I don’t know how to. It’s been a while. And they transitioned and they got married and I don’t know what to do.” And I said, “You just send a text and say, ‘I love you. How are you doing? Let’s connect.’” And they said, “It’s that easy?” I said, “It’s that easy.”

SARA: Well, that’s really helpful. Maybe we, with those big feelings, can allow ourselves to over- complicate things a little bit.

JOEY: Yeah. We do. We complicate things. And so I think that that’s why I think a lot of us, in any marginalized community, when people are showing authentic care, it’s easy to sit and have a conversation. And we know the difference. We know when what you’re saying in those microaggressions are intentional or not or whether you’re exploring and whether you need to understand. And that’s why I’m a gender educator, too. And I tell people, you can ask me whatever you want to ask me and I will tell you whether you should ever ask that question again.

SARA: Good for you. That’s really helpful! We need those people too, right?

JOEY: Yes.

SARA: The people who invite that connection so that you can say, “You can ask me but you probably don’t want to be asking it to other people.”

JOEY: Right. And terms, some people have different terms for things. And the younger generation, I always say 35 and below, all you have to do is tell them once who you are, they get it. And so the new generation has come up with different things. When we were growing up, queer was not good. Queer was a negative term. Well, they’ve reclaimed that to be a positive term. And so those are the things that are so interesting to me. And it’s important. It was interesting, I saw this morning on Facebook this parent wrote about their child who was six wearing a dress to school every day. And the parent said, “I asked him, ‘What are your pronouns?’ And he said, ‘Oh, I know I’m a boy, but I like wearing a dress.’” And the parent was just so loving and allowed this child to explore who they are. Even the classmates. These classmates, they didn’t care that he was wearing a dress. It was just like OK! And so when he saw, “Come to the party, dress up.” He’s used to his mother dressing in a dress, so he thought, “I’m going to wear a dress too.” And so this kid knows who he is and he’s out there. He's being who he is at six. And I just love it. I just love that. And to have parents support you like that is the world to so many people.

SARA: Yeah. I love that story. And I think it’s the power of just allowing your children to be their authentic selves at every age and stage in their development can be the best thing. And you know, as a parent, I think it’s really hard because I think we also really struggle with all of the societal fear around what will happen to my child if I let them, or if they go out into the world and fully express themselves like this and how will the world treat them. And that parental instinct to protection. Can you talk about that a little bit? How do you think about that?

JOEY: I have that with my kids, right? And my daughter’s going to be 40 this year and my son is older. And I still have that with both of my children. And I think that, my oldest son is Asian, he’s Chinese. And my daughter married a man of color. And when she first started going with him – and I raised two children of color – I said, “You’ve got to be careful. This society is not used to – especially where they were living at the time – interracial couples.” And so I think it’s important, though, I tell parents, “You support your child when they say that they want to be an astronaut, they want to be a lawyer, they want to be… It’s just like that. They’re exploring themselves and there’s a way to be safe – because we do, we have to be safe right now – and I think it’s important as a parent that you know where your child is going. Are they going in a safe situation? And so that’s why, here, we’re trying to create safe space for younger kids who can’t go to a bar. So we’re doing game nights or bowling to create that safe space. And I think that’s what’s important. What are you doing to create that safe space for younger folks? So that you can feel, “Okay. I could bring them there and it’s okay.”

SARA: Yeah.

JOEY: And I think that that’s important because it is a hard time right now, even for myself. I’ve been very quiet, living in Arizona. This year, I’ve been very quiet. I’m very choosy who I invite in.

SARA: Yeah.

JOEY: I actually had someone say, right after the inauguration, do I know what Project 2025 is? And have I ever met a trans man?

SARA: Someone said that to you?

JOEY: And I looked at them and said, “I would love to be hiding under that rock with you.” Because, wow. And I gave them the Project 2025 and then I shook their hand and I said, “Well, you’ve met your very first indigenous trans queer man.” And he looked at me like, “What?” And so I laughed. And I got my truck and I left. It was just like, alright. Those are the things that people think that they’ve never met a trans person before but that’s not always the case. We’re everywhere. It’s about whether they felt comfortable or not inviting you in.

SARA: Yeah. That’s such a beautiful distinction. That’s such a beautiful distinction. And, again, that is the beauty of this book, of Authentic Selves, is that it just reinforces that reminder that trans, nonbinary, gender expansive folks are everywhere. And you may or may not know. But they’re everywhere. They’re part of our lives. They’ve been a part of existence for a very long time and will continue to be. When you look back at your own journey in living your authentic life, what’s been the most unexpected lesson or joy for you?

JOEY: I think learning about myself, as well as even after I had my gender-affirming surgery, I had no idea what it was going to mean to me after I did that. And so I think learning that part, I always was male-dominated the way I thought. But now, when I walk into a place, you sort of look around, “Are you talking to me?” And it’s a different way that you have to carry yourself and what that means.

SARA: So you experience some of that male privilege that society just puts upon you by virtue of  being a man.

JOEY: Right. Exactly.

SARA: Wow. That must’ve been really interesting.

JOEY: It was. I was in a magazine talking about toxic masculinity of our male society. And I think trans men definitely could add to changing that.

SARA: Yeah. Absolutely.

JOEY: And I think our voice is necessary in that conversation. And so I like to try to have those conversations and sometimes I hear things and I’m like “Wow.” You know. And I think it’s important. I think the joy has been, I’m finding myself. This is who I am. And never thought that we would be in the space that we’re in of people saying we don’t exist. But not going to allow that to stop me from being who I am. And I think that that’s important. And there’s a confidence that comes with, once you know who you are, it doesn’t matter how you identify. But once you’re really sure of who you are and you’re out there living your life, there is a confidence that comes with that. And I think often people ask me, “Do you worry about dating? Do you worry about finding a mate as transgender person?” And I say, “Well, that’s not a problem. The problem is I’m like a grumpy old man.” That’s the problem. I’m set in my ways.

SARA: Like many other 58-year-old men. Oh, that’s great.

JOEY: So I think that’s important in everybody’s life is there’s a confidence that comes with when you know who your authentic self is.

SARA: I love that. I love that. That’s aspirational for all of us at any moment in our lives. For our Mama Dragons community in particular, all of us moms and parents of LGBTQ+ kids, of any age, what message would you like to leave us as we navigate our own paths of advocacy and support for our kids?

JOEY: I think love is important. Love should come before anything. The love of your child should come before anything. And sometimes you may have fears. And I get it. But sometimes you have to work that out yourself and not put it on your child. You have to allow them to walk their journey. That doesn’t mean you can’t walk yours. You have to also walk yours. And sometimes they have to do them and sometimes you have to do you. So that you come to a place where you’re coming together. And if you stay in that center of love and kindness, I think you’re going towards that. I think we tend to put our fears, sometimes, on our children. And we need to, especially in this case, not do that.

SARA: Which is great and is why I’m grateful for communities like Mama Dragons because there is a place where we can express and share our fears with each other so we don’t pile them on top of our kids.

JOEY: Which is great.

SARA: Yeah. So important. I have two final questions for you. I like to end every episode asking my guests the same two questions. And the first one has to do with the Mama Dragons name. It came out of this sense of fierceness like a dragon, and fierce protection for our kids. And so I like to ask my guests, what is it that you are fierce about?”

JOEY: I think I’m fierce about my community and helping people understand they’re not alone. First, my community that they’re not alone. And secondly folks out there that are trying to support us, whether they be an ally, a parent, a grandparent because we have a lot of grandparents raising their grandchildren now, that there’s help out there. You’re not alone. I think it’s so important for people to know that they’re not alone. And COVID kept folks isolated. And I think we need to come back to the community, organizing, and say to each other, “You’re my people.” That’s what I’m trying to do here. That’s what I’ve tried to do across the country, is build that community. When we were in Boise, this woman came to me and said, “I didn’t even know she was part of my community.” They met people they didn’t even know that they were part of the community. And that’s the joy part about it is that you start to learn who is in your community and who’s your people.

SARA: And you are not alone. That’s beautiful. Thank you. And my last question for you is what is bringing you joy right now in these times when – you said it Joy is Resistance – we need to find joy wherever we can. What’s bringing you joy?

JOEY: I’m involved in a bunch of different things and I think spending time and getting out kayaking and exercising and I think laughing every day. It’s important to find people to laugh every day. Although these are really tough times, I think it’s who you surround yourself with and that you can laugh at yourself as well as laugh at what’s happening and keep that sense of humor. And I think that that’s helped me. Really learning to take care of myself, I’m finally finding that joy of selfcare. And so I think that it’s good. I think I’m starting to slow down myself. I think I’m at the point that I’m ready for a relationship. And so we’ll see as life goes on.

SARA: That’s great. That’s great. Joey, Thank you so much for your time and Thank you for all that you are doing in our world. It’s just such a joy for me to know you and to watch you. And I’m so grateful for the ways that you are creating community and championing community and getting the beautiful trans and nonbinary, gender-expansive community stories out into the world.

JOEY: Thank you for having me and thank you for all that you’re doing up there in Boise, Idaho, because without folks like you, we all need to help each other.

SARA: Yes we do. We all need each other. Thanks so much for joining me today.

JOEY: Thank you.

SARA: Thank you so much for joining us here In The Den. Did you know that Mama Dragons offers an eLearning program called Parachute? This is an interactive learning platform where you can learn more about how to affirm, support, and celebrate the LGBTQ+ people in your life. Learn more at Mamadragons.org/parachute. Or find the link in the episode show notes under links.

If you enjoyed this episode, we hope you’ll take a moment to tell your friends and leave us a positive rating and review wherever it is you listen. Good reviews make us more visible and help us reach more folks who could benefit from being part of this community. And if you’d like to help Mama Dragons in our mission to support, educate, and empower the parents of LGBTQ+ children, please donate at Mama Dragons.org or click the donate link in the show notes. For more information on Mama Dragons and the podcast, you can follow us on Instagram or Facebook or visit our website mamadragons.org.