Transgender Athletes in Sports with Chris Mosier

Today we are tackling a topic that has consumed the country, the news, and social media, and has sparked a political firestorm in recent years—transgender athletes in sports. To date, 26 states have enacted laws banning transgender youth from participating in sports teams consistent with their gender identity. There is so much fear and misinformation around this topic, and today In the Den Sara sits down with the incredible Chris Mosier, the first openly transgender man to earn a spot on a U.S. Men’s National Team. Chris and Sara talk about the reality of trans people in sports and what we can do to better understand and support the trans athletes in our lives and in the country.

Special Guest: Chris Mosier

Chris Mosier is a trailblazing athlete, coach, and founder of TransAthlete.com, the leading resource for transgender inclusion in sport. In 2015, he made history as the first openly transgender man to earn a spot on a U.S. Men’s National Team, a milestone that helped catalyze policy change by the International Olympic Committee on trans athlete inclusion and earned him the title of "the man who changed the Olympics." A decorated multisport athlete, Chris is an eight-time Team USA member, five-time Men’s National Champion, and Men’s All-American. Chris’s advocacy extends far beyond competition. Through his writing, speaking, and policy work, he has influenced trans-inclusive practices at every level of sport—from high school athletics to professional leagues. As one of the most visible voices opposing anti-trans legislation in the U.S., Chris is a driving force in the fight for trans rights and equity. Chris is a Nike-sponsored athlete featured in multiple global campaigns. He also mentors transgender and nonbinary athletes around the world, living by his powerful motto: “Be who you needed when you were younger.”

Links from the Show:

• The TransAthlete website: https://www.transathlete.com/ 
• Chris’s website: https://www.thechrismosier.com/ 
• ESPN’s Body Issue 2016 photos: https://www.espn.com/espn/photos/gallery/_/id/16797886/image/1/bodies-want-2016-bodies-want-2016 
• Changing the Game documentary: https://www.hulu.com/movie/changing-the-game-71bcd7f5-63b4-485c-b4ee-ed41517484d1 

In the Den is made possible by generous donors like you. Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today at www.mamadragons.org. 

Transcript

SARA: Hi everyone. Welcome to In the Den with Mama Dragons. A podcast and community to support, educate, and empower parents on the journey of raising happy and healthy LGBTQ+ humans. I’m your host, Sara LaWall. I’m a Mama Dragon myself and an advocate for our queer community. And I’m so glad to be part of this wild and wonderful parenting journey with all of you. Thanks for joining us. We’re so glad you’re here.

Today we are tackling a topic that has consumed the media and sparked quite the political firestorm in the last couple of years: transgender athletes in sports. In all the anti-trans legislation sweeping the country, 26 states have enacted laws banning transgender youth from participating in sports teams consistent with their gender identity. That’s a lot. But we are so lucky to have an incredible guest who has been on the frontlines of this issue, a renowned athlete himself, here with us to talk about all of this and unpack it.  I am just beyond thrilled to welcome THE Chris Mosier In the Den. Chris, welcome. It’s so good to have you.

 CHRIS: Thank you so much. Happy to be here.

SARA: I want to tell folks a little bit more about you and some of your extraordinary accomplishments to set the stage for our conversation today. Chris Mosier is a trailblazing athlete, coach, and advocate for trans rights. In 2015, Chris made history as the first openly transgender man to earn a spot on a U.S. Men’s National Team, a milestone that helped catalyze policy change by the International Olympic Committee on trans athlete inclusion and earned him the title of "the man who changed the Olympics."

He is a decorated multisport athlete, Chris is an eight-time Team USA member, five-time Men’s National Champion, and Men’s All-American, and a Nike sponsored athlete featured in multiple global campaigns. And as a result of all of this, Chris’s founded transathlete.com the leading resource for transgender inclusion in sports. He also mentors transgender and nonbinary athletes around the world. And he is developing a training exclusively for our Mama Dragons community which we hope will launch in July. So be on the lookout for that. Chris, truly, it is an honor to have you with us today. I never imagined I’d get to interview you when I took on hosting this podcast. So I am so excited.

CHRIS: Thank you. I’m thrilled to be here. And what an incredible organization this is. I’m just so happy to be able to speak with your community.

SARA: Thanks. We’re so grateful for you and all the work that you do because this is such an important topic, especially right now in this current climate of targeted attacks on trans rights and really how they’ve grown and really become a target on the humanity of trans folks and trans youth. And as I was preparing for today, what strikes me most is that you have been in the sports spotlight as a transgender athlete for ten years, more than 10 years. And you’re not the only one, there are trans athletes in all areas of sports, high school, college, professional. This is not really a new issue and even though there’s always been some level of media attention and concerns, the issue has exploded into the national spotlight with so much divisiveness and so many attacks. And we saw, in February, the president issued this terrible executive order that seeks to ban transgender athletes from competing in women’s and girl’s-sponsored sports and it’s just so full of contradictions and inconsistencies and grossness, frankly. So I want to just start with why do you think trans athletes have become such a cornerstone, such a political issue? Why are we spending so much time getting worked up about this?

CHRIS: This is a great question. And a great place to start. I think, going back to when I came out in 2010, 2010 is when I came out as an openly trans athlete and also was the first time that I hit the media spotlight. And so at that time, I was the only trans athlete competing in the gender with which I identify. I’m not the first by any means. Renee Richards in the 1970’s was a trailblazer, a groundbreaker. But there was about a 40 year gap between her coming out and my coming out being an openly trans athlete. And I’m thrilled to say that more people have been able to see me and know that they can also be out and play the sports that they love and that we have had more trans athletes be visible because of a little bit of increase in social acceptance of trans people. We had the 2015 Transgender tipping point with Laverne Cox on the cover of Time Magazine. We had increased awareness when Caitlyn Jenner came out. Caitlyn, regardless of her view on trans athletes and other topics, she really did provide a social entry point to this conversation for a lot of people who watched reality TV or were invested in celebrity. And so we have had these points along the way over the last 15 years since I’ve been out and been competing in sports. But around that 2015 time was when I made Team USA, when I got sponsored by Nike, when my profile and the visibility of trans athletes increased along with the visibility of the trans community. But as you mentioned, it was really about 2020, right before COVID shut everything down, that Idaho passed the first anti-trans sports ban.

SARA: Sadly, we did.

CHRIS: Yes. And so this journey really is from 2015, when we started to see bathroom bans and locker room bans and attempts on sports bans enter the conversation politically. And they didn’t work at that time. There was no appetite for it. When we saw in 2016 HB2 in North Carolina which was our bathroom ban that passed, we saw huge societal pushback on that. We saw musicians say that they weren’t going to do concerts in North Carolina. We saw businesses pull their employee trips and making new factories. We saw the NBA pull the All-Star game.

SARA: Yeah.

CHRIS: Huge amounts of push back. And we have not seen anything like that since. So, to your questions, why is this the topic now, I think that sport is something that, regardless of whether or not somebody plays, everybody has an opinion about. Right? You don’t have to be an athlete, you don’t have to be invested in football to have a favorite team. You don’t need to know about the rules of basketball to have an idea about what fairness means to you. And I think that that’s really the pivot point that folks who are against the trans community were able to latch onto. This idea of fairness and this idea of, sort of this idea of lack, right? We know that women in sports are severely under-represented in terms of media, in terms of opportunities, in terms of pay, and so many other things that I’m sure we’ll get to a little bit later on. But what they – being the folks who are anti-trans – have done is position the trans community as the enemy. And it’s been a really effective way to enter through sports because in 2020, when the first anti-trans sports ban was passed, that was the starting point, the first domino to fall. We knew that this wasn’t about sports. We knew that this wasn’t really about healthcare or schools. This is about larger attacks on the trans community and trying to make it so that trans people don’t exist. And sport is the entry-point to that because of everyone’s idea about fairness, about rules, and about play, and about competition. And it’s really interesting, it doesn’t matter the level of play. It could be elementary school play. But that still rings true for a lot of people. So it has been an incredibly effective divisive tool used by one political party to try to position trans people as the enemy.

SARA: Wow. Thank you. Yeah. And I do want to get into fairness and some of the arguments that we’re hearing a little bit. But I want to go back a little bit. I wanted to just set the stage with that question. But I’m wondering if you’ll share with us a little bit about your story and your journey through all of this. And I’m really curious to hear, first, how did you get into sports? I heard that you grew up and you had a little bit of an obsession with Michael Jordan.

CHRIS: Yes. That is true. I grew up outside Chicago so of course, at that time, Michael Jordan was everything. And I was always drawn to sports, though. I think, what is the reason? The reason is play to be honest. As a young person – and this is the reason why I think a lot of young athletes enjoy sports – is play. Sports was a way for me to play. It was a way for me to build community. It was a way for me to meet people. Most of all, it was just a way to have fun. And I loved any sort of sport. Anything that I could play, I would do as a child. But what I found was, as a trans kid --  who didn’t know I was trans at the time but I’ve always been trans – what I found was that I was acknowledged and accepted and loved in sports in the way that I thought that my peers were in the classroom and in the neighborhood and in the other areas of life that I didn’t get that recognition. So when I found success in sports – I was a good athlete – so when I was able to contribute to my team, people liked me. People appreciated me. People found value in me. People wanted me around. And that was really invigorating for me because I didn’t feel like, as a little queer kid, I had that in other spaces. And so I was really drawn to that and that positive feedback loop made me work harder in sports, which made me better at sports, which made me have more friends and more community, which provided me some safety both on and off the field because my team had my back both on the court and in the neighborhood or on the playground or wherever else in school. So it was that that really got me into sports. And then it was just a way to channel, I think, a lot of the energy that I had as a young person into something that was positive. And it really was foundational for me in terms of so much of what I love about myself today, in terms of my values and my work ethic and things like that, all came from youth sports.

SARA: That’s so interesting. And it’s so interesting to hear you reflect about how playing sports and being on a sports team created some community and some self-esteem in a space in which you were celebrated rather than perceived as different. And how true that story is for so many kids regardless of gender identity and queerness. There’s something about that athletic ability that allows them to feel accepted in a way that they don’t in other places of their life.

CHRIS: And it’s been a long time in coming to that reflection, right? Because no kid is playing sports and being like, “You know what? I really want to learn some leadership skills. I think I’ll join the basketball team.” It’s a bi-product of being there which is amazing. And it’s honestly one of the reason why I think every young person should be able to play sports because everybody should be able to get those skills and those values – communication skills, how to work with people who are different from you, how to win gracefully, how to lose and bounce back – all of those are things that we learn through playing sports. But the confidence piece that you just mentioned is really important and something that I think I inherently understood but didn’t have the words to articulate at the time. Sports was a way for me to feel, not only confident and powerful, but also better about my body. And I think that this really, as a young person, middle school, junior high, it was just a way to feel powerful and feel fast and feel strong and feel good. But as high school hit and as puberty hit, there was this time where sports was the way that I could offset some of the discomfort I was feeling with the changes in my body. And that allowed me to have a better perspective on my place in the world, I guess, or how I would navigate the world because sport helped me feel like I had control when I had no control over what was happening in terms of how I was evolving.

SARA: That is really interesting. And it took you a long time to fully come out. You didn’t really come out until you were an adult. And I heard you talk about how there was a time, particularly in college as you were just starting to come to terms with some of these identity questions but maybe didn’t still have the full understanding or vocabulary, and you actually pulled away from pursuing college sports. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

CHRIS: My dream, you mentioned Michael Jordan. I was spending a lot of late nights in my driveway shooting baskets and imagining myself in the Nike commercial, imagining myself hitting that buzzer-beater and the lights going out, imagining all of these scenarios of athletic success and dreaming the dream. But at that time, the WNBA was not really popping. I think it had just started maybe around that time or maybe it hadn’t even started yet. And I didn’t see a future for myself in women’s basketball, in women’s sports. But I also didn’t see myself playing in the NBA either. So I thought that college basketball would be kind of the ending for me. But when it came time to actually play, I couldn’t imagine myself being on a team and having a coach say, "Hey ladies” or “Let’s go Girls” and having that apply to me. And I didn’t have the language or terminology around the trans community at that point to kind of identify what my discomfort was with it. I just felt like a disconnect. I felt like I didn’t belong in that space. So I chose not to pursue organized college athletics. And instead, found myself yearning for that connection and the community that sports brought me as a young person. So I played everything intramural that was coed. Anything that I didn’t have to use a locker room for, anything that wasn’t an exclusively women’s team, I would go and play. And so everything from soccer, ultimate frisbee, pickle ball, badminton. It didn’t matter the sport. If I could be competitive, if I could be with other people and play, I wanted to do it as long as I wasn’t exclusively on a women’s team. And I think sports helped me understand a lot about my identity as a trans person because of that discomfort that I felt in those exclusively women’s spaces. I wanted to celebrate women’s sports and I wanted to celebrate the empowerment of women and girls playing sports. And also, I felt like it wasn’t for me. But I didn’t know what transgender meant. I didn’t know how to tell my family or my friends how I felt inside. And so for the first half of my life, I really just navigated the world both in my own mind and in the minds of and words of my friends and my family just as Chris. I was just always uniquely me. And I think my family didn’t really have the words to put to that. And my friends didn’t really know. But they would have me be the dad if we were playing house on the playground. There were signs all along the way. But we didn’t have, at that time, access to the terminology, or probably even more than that, I didn’t see role models that were trans that I could look to. I didn’t see a future for myself. And so, as a young person, I just thought, “I guess I’m just me. I know I’m not like the girls in my class. But I know I’m not like my brother either. And so I don’t know. I’m just navigating the world as this solo entity.” And I think more and more as I talk to more trans people, this is such a common experience of feeling like we’re the only one.

SARA: Sure. That whole point of not seeing representations and examples to help you understand is really powerful. What was the tipping point? When did you really know and decide it was time to come out and embrace that self?

CHRIS: Yeah. I think there were a couple of moments. So the first one was in grad school, I was studying higher education and my idea was that I would go into college student administration. And I had such a cool and amazing college experience in clubs and organizations and so this is a reference that maybe only parents will get on here. But I wanted that Saved-By-The-Bell experience. I wanted to be doing all the clubs and activities and having the whole thing. And I was able to do that in school. I really just threw myself into everything since I wasn’t exclusively an athlete, I was able to do things like the newspaper and the yearbook and the radio station, and volunteer, and all of those sort of things. So I wanted that experience. And when I was in grad school, I was taking a higher-ed administration class and one of my classmates on the LGBTQ day – I think we only had one day, we’re going to cover it all in one day, of supporting LGBTQ students – and one of my classmates looked over at me and said, “No offense, Chris, but transgender people blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.” And I was like, “Wait. What?” I mean, it hit me like a ton of bricks because I had never associated with that term. I had probably just learned really what it meant not too long before that. And it was shocking to me that someone else assigned that label on me. And so that was the first thing that I think really kind of started my wheels turning in terms of being associated with that identity. But the second was through sports. So a couple of years later, after doing lots of research on YouTube and starting this journey of understanding or at least having a little more exposure to the trans community – which, compared to today’s internet and social media, was still really light – I was at the starting line of a race. And so I had just started doing triathlon. I had been running in the women’s category. And I started the triathlon and I remember – it’s such a body-conscious sport – you wear a spandex outfit. You’re wearing a wet suit, which you’re basically in a super hero costume. And they separate the athletes by men and women. So you have a pink swim cap or a blue swim cap. And to be clear, they’ve stopped doing this so much now. But at the time, that’s how it was. So I’m standing there at the starting line with the wave of women and I just felt like people were looking at me like, “What are you doing here?” And internally I was like, “Yeah. What am I doing here? It doesn’t fit. It doesn’t feel right.“ And I ended up winning my first triathlon but I was too embarrassed to tell people because it was in the women’s category. And that was a moment where I was like, “Wow. I have this amazing athletic success that I would love to share with my friends and folks, and I don’t feel like I can because I don’t think it represents who I am. And that was really like the big push for me to go, “I love competing in sports and I don’t want to lose this. But I’m so uncomfortable in the 99% of the rest of my life and now I’m uncomfortable at the starting line and in my races. So something has to give.” And that was really what pushed me to think more about that. But I had a great sense of wanting to tell people for about a year and a half before I ever mentioned it because I was terrified that I would never be able to play sports again.

SARA: Oh, wow.

CHRIS: Like I was worried about telling my mom. I was worried about sharing it with my family. But even more than that, more than coming out at work, I was so terrified that I wouldn’t be able to play sports.

SARA: Wow. So, I’m curious how did your parents react, particularly for our community of parents, it’s always good for us to hear about. What was that experience like for you and your mom and dad?

CHRIS: Yeah. So my parents got divorced when I was about 10 years old. And I had a relationship with both of them separately, lived with my mom. And when I was going to tell my mom, I was just terrified because we had a stronger relationship and she had a daughter and two sons and now she was going to have three sons. And she lives in northern Wisconsin in a small town where there were no openly queer people. There was very little exposure, I think that her exposure was my previous exposure which was basically like Jerry Springer and Maury Povich.

SARA: Not great examples.

CHRIS: These are not positive representations of trans folks in the media. No lived experience, and I similarly had no lived experience of meeting and talking to a trans community at that time. And I was terrified of her reaction. And it took a really long time to tell her because I didn’t want it to be around a holiday, and I wasn’t living with her. So it was going to happen over the phone. I didn’t want it to be, “Chris ruined Christmas when he became a man.” I wasn’t sure how she would react. When I was finally able to tell her, and I think I tried for seven months. When I finally was able to do it, it was honestly the best reaction, “You’re my child. I just want you to be happy.” And then there was the pause. That was her first reaction. And then there was a pause and was like, “And can you also tell me more about what this means?” So she didn’t know what it meant. And she was like, “Does this mean you’re going to have hairy armpits and legs now?” I had to do a lot of explaining of what my journey might look like. And I really wanted her to come along on that journey with me because I don’t have a large family, so it was really important for me to maintain that relationship. My brothers, one is a year and a half younger than me. One was born when I graduated high school so we have a big age gap. And they were both amazing. Went from a lot of stress and strain from my younger brother whom I grew up with – you know sibling rivalry, just fighting all the time – to really growing much, much closer, which was the best possible reaction. My dad, on the other hand, before I came out, I was in a relationship with a woman and my queerness, I think, was too much for him. And he stopped talking to me. So I never had the chance to come out as trans to my dad. But my brother sees my dad multiple times a week. He’s alive. He’s well. He apparently, he lives not far from me and I haven’t spoken with him in over 15 years. So I really had to go through that process of sort of like mourning the loss of a parent who’s still alive which is so unfortunate and so heartbreaking. And also really being grateful for the love and support of my mom who told me that she would’ve been more surprised if I would’ve told her I was going to wear a dress the next day than to tell her I’m trans. I think she always knew. They always knew, but didn’t have the words to put to that. So I think it’s just so cool because my mom still has scrapbooks and prints out my Instagram photos and saves all my newspaper clippings. I know she’s so incredibly proud of me and loves and supports me. And also, there have been bumps along the road as we both navigate this journey together. For her, I think it was more about telling other people. When you’re in a small town and you lack the exposure and you know that your friends and coworkers and grandparents don’t have the exposure to the trans community, how do you explain that? Right? You’re in a conservative area. You’re in an area where this just doesn’t happen, right? How do you, then, talk with people? So when people come back into town like, “Oh, hey. How’s your daughter?” What is the reactions to that? And think that that was the biggest hurdle was figuring out how to talk about me. And being in a Nike commercial, I think, helped that along too, kind of helpful. Not everybody has that privilege. But that was certainly something to latch onto and be like, “Oh, actually he’s doing amazing things with this and it’s worthy of celebration.”

SARA: Thank you for that story. It’s always helpful as a parent of a trans kiddo, some of those same experiences too in also allowing her to live out her own story and transition before I made it public. Like, how much do I share? When do I share? With whom do I share? How do I share? Those are always really hard struggles for parents to navigate.

CHRIS: And I think it’s also, for me, mom gets a lot of grace. I’ve always said, “I think transitioning was a process for me, but it was also a transition for people around me and how they referred to me and how they saw me. And I really think – and you’re a parent and you can correct me if this is wrong, but I’m childless by choice – but I believe that, for parents, there might be a certain time of your child’s childhood that you sort of latch onto. Where like, when you’re seeing your little baby, you’re seeing that 7-year-old or 10-year-old, or maybe even younger than that, I don’t know. But there was a lock in my identity in terms of being the child. And when I came out, I was an adult. But I was always going to be my mother’s child. And so I think that when we would make mistakes with pronouns, fortunately my name didn’t change. It was always Chris so that was very easy for me. But for pronouns, we’d be out and I have a scruffy face – not this incredible mustache I have now – but every other person in the world is calling me “he” and there would be a mistake from my mom in public settings, which for me was deeply embarrassing and also I understand because I think you have 20+ years of experience seeing your child as – like for my mom like baby girl. I think that that took a lot of work to come to get over. And if there’s the occasional mistake now, I’m understanding of it because this is going to maybe sound kind of harsh for the parents. But as a trans person I go, “Well, that’s a her problem. That’s not a me problem.” Right?

SARA: Yeah. You’re right.

CHRIS: It took me a long time as a trans person to understand that if people made a mistake, it wasn’t because I was doing anything wrong. It’s because they just weren’t getting it. And I think early in my transition, it kind of broke me every time that that would happen because I wanted nothing more than to have the love and acceptance and validation from my mom.

SARA: And that’s a really healthy description. And you’re right. I will own that. It is a me problem. And it takes a lot of unlearning and rewiring of your brain. So once you came out, can you talk a little bit about, then, how your athletic journey changed and where it went from there?

CHRIS: Yeah. So I’d been competing in running events and triathlon and really getting into triathlon. And that was about the time of that first race where I started to understand I had to make a change. I reached out to my national governing body to try to switch my categories to the men’s category. And it was an arduous process to say the least. At that time, I was the first trans athlete in triathlon to come out, to contact them. So there was a lot of making the rules as we went along. Both in running and in triathlon. So it was a  lot of outing myself to organizations who would be like, “I don’t know what to do with this.” But would forward me on to ten other people in their department and suddenly I’m out to 40 people in triathlon – like the entirety of the organization – and trying to figure out where I fit. But when I came out publically, and when I was able to move categories, what I found was that the weight off of my shoulders allowed me to more fully show up and to participate in ways that helped my performance more than anything else. I would be at the start of races, I’d be worried about what people were thinking about me. I’d be worried about what the spectators thought of me. I’d be worried about how I was standing or how I was speaking or how I was moving because I didn’t want anybody to say anything. I didn’t want people to call me out on my truth before I was ready to tell them. And when I finally put it out in the world, it was such a relief because I could take all of that energy that I’d been focusing on hiding, all of that time I was spending on living a double life, and I was able to put it into my training and racing. And I found that my confidence soared. My results showed as well that I was able to just more fully focus and be present. And that result wasn’t exclusive to sports. It really was in the workplace and in my friendships and in my relationship. I was able to more fully show up and be present and not worry as much. To be clear, there were lots of worries still, especially in the early part of transition. But it just felt like such a relief because I knew it was out there and I didn’t have to hide anymore.

SARA: And how did your fellow competitors respond?

CHRIS: Amazingly, which is so surprising. I had the best reactions in sports which I say is surprising and also not surprising because in sports – even triathlon is an individual sport but I had a triathlon team. And I was a coach for that team before I came out – so everybody there knew me already as an athlete, as a coach, and as a teammate. So, even though I was the first trans person that every single person on my triathlon team had ever met, even though I was one of the first queer people that a lot of them had ever been around, they asked great questions. They googled things and did their own research. They didn’t rely on me to do all the educating. And more than that, they had my back. Like, I had a couple of teammates when I was present and not, would always make corrections of people. They were always making sure that I was being referred to appropriately, that it was respectful. And I really just felt so fully supported by my straight and cisgender teammates.

SARA: That’s amazing.

CHRIS: In races, I distinctly remember one of the first races that I won in the men’s category. I beat the second place guy by two minutes. And I waited at the finish line just to cheer people in and I got a nice high-five and congratulations at the end. And it was all very kind. But the next day he found me on Facebook and sent me a message to say, “I didn’t know and it’s so incredible that you’re out there and I just fully support you.” And I just thought that that was so amazing to have that sort of support. And it’s really been some spectators who have had issues with me. But part of it is the privilege of being a trans masculine person and being in men’s sports that I’m not experiencing the same sort of harassment that trans women do. Part of it is that I’m white. And I can navigate spaces with my whiteness. But, by and large, I’ve had such a positive experience in the athletic community, it’s been really wonderful and unexpected.

 SARA: I’m just so glad to hear that. It’s just really delightful to know that the athletes are just right there. And it almost seems to me in many of the stories that I have followed, that the athletes, the competitors, have less of an issue than everybody else.

CHRIS: Yes. Absolutely. And I would say that’s true of almost every athlete that I’ve ever mentored or worked with or competed with. It’s that the parents have the issue. The coaches have the issue.

SARA: The spectators all have a lot of . . .

CHRIS: The other people’s parents have an issue for our young people. But their teammates love and accept them. Their coaches adore them. They are loved and supported and uplifted on their teams. And that’s why sport is so amazing.  But it’s really the toxic piece of negative media attention and the anti-trans rhetoric that has really been driven in in the last five years, particularly around sports, that has made such a toxic environment for our trans athletes.

SARA: So, 2015, you made Team USA in Duathlon. And in large part because you were advocating for your own self, challenging the guidelines of the International Olympic Committee that governs duathlon. What did that feel like? And then to become elevated to this fantastic title of the “The man who changed the Olympics.”

CHRIS: It’s a very cool title, definitely very cool. In 2015, I made Team USA. And when I made the team, I was ineligible to compete in the world championship race because of the IOC rules that govern my sport. And those rules at that time required that the trans athlete have two years of hormone therapy – which I had – but also required that every athlete have lower surgery intern and external genital modification in order to participate in sports. Which, in the way you just snapped your head back is probably the way that a lot of your listeners just snapped their head back too. It’s so archaic and it’s so outlandish. And I didn’t believe that anyone should have to modify their body in order to play the sport they love. I had made the team, just like every other man on Team USA and I was being banned from it because of my decisions about my medical care. And so I challenged that piece and was able to get the Olympic Committee to change their rules, not only to remove the surgery requirement for athletes, but also to drop the hormone requirement from two years to one year based on the best evidence at that time. So it was amazing. It was fantastic for me to have a pathway to compete. And it felt like such a big deal, not just personally as an athlete, but also for my community. And I thought of it more as sort of blazing the trail for the folks who could come after me because I didn’t want anybody else to have to fight that fight.

SARA: Yeah. I mean, it seems like this really catapulted you into advocacy for trans athletes, having to do it for yourself and then wanting to make sure that other athletes get to compete. And so much of your advocacy career has grown alongside your athletic career. You really have never backed down. It seems to me that you’ve gotten more vocal and more visible about being a trans athlete in your own transition and your own story. And I want to pause for a moment and say thank you for that because it takes a lot of courage and it means so much to other trans folks. Why is being so public so important to you?

CHRIS: It really started in 2010 when I first came out publicly. I thought that I had the decision to make of, do I come out publicly or do I not. Because in my heart at that time, what I wanted more than anything else was probably to move to another state, get a new job, meet new people, and just start over as the man that was meant to be. I just wanted that fresh start. I didn’t want to have to explain myself or always be explaining what trans met or doing the 101s when I’m having conversations with folks. But I ultimately did make the decision to come out publically in The Advocate magazine and share my story as an out, trans athlete. And it was really that decision that I knew everything would change because the internet means that you only have to come out one time, right? I’m forever the trans athlete online. And so I really decided to lean into that because I didn’t see role models for myself in sport. And to be honest, I didn’t see examples of trans men living happy, successful lives as professionals. I didn’t see people in sports. I didn’t see people with great relationships. I didn’t see people loved and adored by their communities. And I felt like I was doing all this from scratch. And I thought, “What would it be like if I had a role model, if I had somebody that I could’ve looked to.” So that’s really where my motto that I live by, “Be who you needed when you were younger.” It was 2010 that I decided that that was the way that I wanted to live my life is to be the person that I wish that I saw when I was 10 years old, 15 years old, all through my life. Because, if I was going to fight these battles, I wanted to make it easier for every person who comes after me. And that’s what made me start transathlete.com in 2013. So it made me want to be so visible in the Nike campaigns. So it made me take my clothes off for the body issues.

SARA: Okay. So I want to talk about that. That was my next question. In 2016, you’re the first transgender athlete to appear in ESPN Magazine’s body issue. And for those who don’t know, this is a special issue of the magazine where high-level athletes are photographed nude or seminude, often in the situation of their particular sport. They’re stunning photographs. A way to really celebrate the athletic form and the power and strength and physique of athletes that are at the top of their game. What was that like for you because that is a very vulnerable choice for anyone to agree to be photographed without clothes.

CHRIS: Yeah.

SARA: But the pictures are extraordinary. So talk to us about that experience?

CHRIS: I feel like I manifested that. I had a great feature in ESPN Magazine in 2015. And I had a report follow me around for, what felt like, months. Travel to other states with me, attend speaking gigs, watch me do a 20-mile run, meet my athlete friends. It was really intense to be followed like that. And in one of our interviews, I casually said, “You know, I’d really love to be in the body issue.” And she’s like, “Oh, really. My editor is actually the person in charge of that. I’ll drop a line.” And the issue came out in October. I didn’t hear anything back. I just thought that it was something I said. And it was maybe April of the following year that I got a phone call that was like, “Hey, we’d love to offer you a spot on this year’s body issue.” And I was like, “Yes.” And they were like, “Okay. So you know it’s fully nude, right?” And I’m like, “Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.” And they’re like, “ Not, not like nude colored anything. There’s no partially nude. You are really naked.” And I was like, “Yeah. I’m in.” And then I hung up the phone and then I was like, “Yes.” And then I was like, “Oh my gosh. What did I just do?” But I thought that it was a really amazing way to, one, push my own comfort in terms of how I navigate the world and being around other people and having nearly all of me out there. You are tastefully covered, but only by your own coercion of your own body. It was really intense. And so I just thought it was such a cool way for me to be able to celebrate finally loving my body and finally feeling at home in my skin because for so long I didn’t feel that. There was always this sort of separation and sports brought me closer to feeling home in my body. But it took a long time, and I think at that point it was five years into my transition and I felt settled in who I am. And it was really amazing to have the opportunity to share that and show that with people. But when I tell you it is fully nude, it is fully nude. And so that was a really wild experience to have not just a photographer there, but also ten other people assisting. And everyone – when I tell you it was such a wonderful experience, that people were so kind. They would back up to me and put their hand back like they were going to receive a baton in a track race for me to pass off my robe. They’d be like, “Evert your eyes.” Everyone would look away. They made such a safe space for me. It felt like a really wonderful way to share my hard work and to represent for my community in this incredible issues.

SARA: It’s amazing. I looked at so many. I looked at lots of athletes and, wow, all of those photos are extraordinary. What did it feel like when you saw the finished product for the first time?

CHRIS: It was mind-blowing, honestly. I’ve had a few of these moments, particularly early in transition where I remember riding my bike to work one day, nothing special, it’s a Tuesday at 8:50 a.m. and I’m racing so I’m not late to work on my bicycle and I remember looking to the side and seeing my reflection in a window of a store and being like, “Oh my God, that’s me.” My own reflection kind of caught me off guard because for a long time – maybe a good way to describe this for folks if they’re not trans might be – if you have long hair and then you cut it off, or if a guy has a long beard and then shaves it off, we have this phantom hair thing. Like a phantom ponytail. For a long time, I had a phantom ponytail. I’d be like, “Oh, no. I cut it off. I actually don’t have long hair anymore.” But it felt like I had it. And I think, in my mind, I had this image of myself that didn’t quite match the way I wanted to be showing up. And so when I actually saw the version of me that I’d always imagine, I was like, “Whoa, that is so cool.” So when I actually saw the photos, I was very concerned about how I would look to other people, and mostly to myself.” I remember telling the photographer, “I just want to look like a bad-ass.” I want to look strong. I want to look powerful. I want to look good.

SARA: I think the photographer accomplished that.

CHRIS: Yeah. He’s like, “I got you.” But also like, “You already did the work so it’s going to happen.”

SARA: Right.

CHRIS: So it was really incredible. I think the first time that I actually saw them was at the release party. So I was on the red carpet at the ESPN Body Issue Release party. And they handed me the issue. And I think there’s a photo of me with my jaw open like, “Oh my gosh. This is so cool” It was just so satisfying and so amazing to finally see back reflected in real print the way that I, as a child dreamed I would be in the world.

SARA: It’s so inspiring and such a beautiful culminating moment to really underscore that motto that you shared with us about being who you needed when you were younger. I can just imagine what it would be like for young trans athletes and see your Nike campaigns in such a spotlight, sponsored by such reputable, well-known institutions. I’m curious if, because you are so public, if a lot of young folks and young trans athletes reach out to you, particularly on Instagram or some of those other ways, just to thank you for or to tell you how inspiring you are to them.

CHRIS: Yeah. So many. It’s probably the greatest privilege of being in my position is hearing from other folks that they’ve seen me and that they knew that they could continue to play sports because they saw me. I think that’s the highest compliment.

SARA: That’s amazing. And you were also one of the executive producers on this beautiful documentary called Changing the Game which is streaming on Hulu and was in the Tribeca Film Festival – won an award. And this film follows three transgender high school athletes from different parts of the country all in different stages of their lives and sports. And I wonder if you can tell us, how did you get involved in this project and why do you feel like it was so needed?

CHRIS: Yeah. I think there’s a real need to tell trans stories from trans voices because so many of the articles and pieces that people see about us are told through a cisgender lens and told sometimes without our presence even there. So a lot of the articles that come out about trans athletes, never speak to or mention a trans athlete by name and they never talk to anyone who loves or supports us. So a lot of what people read, 90% of the articles that come out about trans athletes or have come out in the last five years, have essentially been propaganda pieces against trans athletes. So this was probably around 2017, 2018 that we started having conversations. And these young people are graduated from college now at this point. It’s been a while. But I really was drawn to this project because of the relationships that I had with the athletes. So part of my responsibility was finding the characters for this film.

SARA: Oh wow.

CHRIS: And knowing Mack and knowing Andrea and knowing Sara Rose, just being able to have relationships with them and their parents and their families and being able to pull them in and make sure that they felt safe and supported through this journey was really important to me. I get probably one or two requests a week to do somebody’s documentary or to give people names and athletes for some project or article or movie or whatever. And most of the time I don’t respond to those because I’m very protective of my people. I’m very, very protective of my people, especially my young people. And I want to make sure that it’s done right. And so it was really great to be involved in every step of the way to be able to make sure that the story was being told with humanity and dignity and really respectfully. I wanted nothing more than for these young people to feel proud and happy and safe years after this thing came out. The safety part I can’t guarantee now with our current environment. But I know that they’re all really pleased with the way that they were portrayed honestly, respectfully.

SARA: Yeah. It was a really beautiful intimate stories of really getting to see inside the daily lives of these young people who really shared very vulnerably their own heartfelt, and sometimes really heartbreaking experiences. But also see how their family and their friends are walking alongside them in this journey. And I just really loved it.

CHRIS: Thank you. For your audience, if you folks haven’t seen it yet, I really encourage you to do it because there’s someone in this film for every single person to able to relate to whether it’s the coach or whether it’s the grandma who’s going on her own journey in understanding and getting pronouns right and then wrong and then right. I just, no matter who you are, no matter what your exposure is to the trans community, no matter your education about trans identity, there’s someone in this film that you will be able to go along their journey with them and come out a different person at the end.

SARA: Oh, for sure. I agree. I just found it so striking and so powerful.  And one of the stories you’ve mentioned is about Mack, a wrestler, who even after transitioning with hormone therapy was still required to wrestle on the girls team through much of high school. And watching that experience unfold, listening to the backlash and vitriol from the other parents was really hard and really, really intense. And there was one moment in a clip from a local news story in the film where a commentator – and this goes to your point of trans stories being told through the cisgender lens – a commentator says, “Well, maybe if you want to become a boy, you can become a boy. But maybe it means you have to give up wrestling. You can’t have everything. Take up the violin instead.” And I was just really struck by that. And I’m curious, how do you respond to that kind of argument that suggests, “Okay, if you want to be this other gender we’ll tolerate that. But why do you need to push to play sports? Why do you need to be out there?” And there’s this sort of unspoken implication that’s like go do it where we don’t have to see it or be part of it. How do you respond to that?

CHRIS: You know, it’s been such a common theme for queer people for decades that people would say to gay people, “I don’t care what you do in your own bedroom, but don’t bring it here around my face.” Right? As though being a queer person is exclusively about your sex life, right? I’m always like, “You want to know what my trans agenda, what is my trans day like? I wake up, I have coffee. I check the news. I check Instagram. I get to work.” There’s nothing special about that. We’re all people. And so it’s really heartbreaking for me to hear people be like, “You have to choose.” Right? That was my biggest fear in transition was that I would have to choose. And I truly believe that every young person should be able to be their authentic self and play the sports that they love without having to compromise any part of their identity. And it goes beyond sports too, right? You can be trans and be in theater. You can be queer and play musical instruments. You shouldn’t have to choose between being yourself and doing what you love like everybody else is able to. And so that idea of having to choose one or the other is just so deeply unfair for our young people and for all people. And I think it really goes back to, in the sports way, what is the purpose of sports?

SARA: Yeah. Let’s talk about that.

CHRIS: The purpose of sports is inherently tied to our educational system for young people. Sports is a part of school. It’s a part of our learning. You learn about leadership and communication skills and teamwork and dedication and bouncing back and resilience. I would say, honestly, so much of what I learned from youth sports helped me through my transition and helped me coming out as queer in terms of the resilience that I learned. And in terms of how to deal with criticism and how to have confidence in myself and how to navigate the world. And every young person is supposed to have access to that in school as part of youth sports in our educational system. Now, not every kid likes sports. We know that that’s true. And certainly not every trans kid likes sports. Only 14% of trans boys and 12% of trans girls play youth sports. And there are reasons for that. It’s not that trans people inherently dislike sports. It’s that our educational system and society is telling us that we don’t belong. So why would any trans kid want to put themselves in a position where they know the structure is not set up to support us. But it should be. Every young person should have the access to learning those skills, to making relationships with other people, learning about themselves, moving their body, and more than anything having fun.

SARA: Yeah. And it’s interesting that you talk about that when some of the arguments that especially are highlighted in the film are this undercurrent that folks somehow like to construe this argument that athletes are choosing to change genders in order to win, to be more competitive. And to really underscore this mentality of winning at all costs.

CHRIS: Are you talking about trans girls want to win, or are you talking about trans boys are competing with boys because they want to win? I often hear that a young boy will pretend to be a girl or transition to be a girl to dominate in girls sports.

SARA: I heard it also in Macks story. So it gets complicated then.

CHRIS: Because he wasn’t able to compete with boys.

SARA: So that somehow in his transition, he’s choosing this in order to be able to take testosterone in order to be able to dominate in the sport, when really he wants to be able to compete as himself.

CHRIS: In the story you can see, Mack is boy and he just wants nothing more than to compete with boys. And the state of Texas would not let him. Right? So it wasn’t his choice to, “I’m secretly going to do this so that I can dominate in girl’s competition.”  He didn’t want to be there at all. But what I loved about Mack's story is that Mack refused to give up what he loved, where Texas wanted him to walk away. Texas did not want him there at all. But the rules allowed him to continue to participate. And so I think it is interesting and we often hear that the other way, like that trans girls are transitioning to be a girl to play girl’s and women’s sports. And, again, the truth is so few trans girls actually even play and no athlete is transitioning to gain a  competitive advantage. In a lot of cases, it’s a competitive disadvantage. Think about, just socially, the rhetoric, the lack of acceptance and understanding from people particularly people in smaller towns, people without a trans community that’s vibrant and visible. There are so many barriers for these young people, and for all people who are transitioning. So this idea that anyone would transition for any other reason than to be their authentic self and to live their best life, is just wild to me. It’s so far from reality.

SARA: And it’s such a twisted way that we talk about fairness when you look at Mack’s story and the claims of unfairness all had to do with it being unfair because Mack is now taking testosterone and competing with girls. But then, the flip side of fairness when you have trans women competing on a women’s team and that’s not fair either. There’s just no clarity. I think the best part of the film that really tackled this head on was one of Mack’s female competitors who was just like, “Mack makes me work harder. I have to beat him.” She was just like, “It doesn’t matter to me. I doesn’t work that way. I am going to still work as hard as I possibly can.” And I was really inspired by listening to her own reflection.

CHRIS: Yeah. She was a wild card. She comes into the film when you least expect it and is like such a beautiful twist. And I think that goes back to your point earlier about how athletes tend to accept other athletes. If you are working that hard – And Mack was competing at a state level – him and this other competitor were going for the top spot in the state, right? And to be clear, this is not the Olympics. This is high school sports. So it’s not that serious. But it is a very, very serious thing for these young people and their families in that moment. I don’t think this is not the greatest accomplishment of any of those athletes' lives. But it is a big deal because of the investment that people put into it. So all of that training and energy that Mack was putting in, that this other athlete was putting in, you can see it in the film. And there’s just this mutual respect. It’s one of the things I love the most about being an athlete is that, particularly at these Nike gatherings where I’m around the top athletes in every sport, that there’s just this mutual respect because you know how hard another person has to work to get there. And you know the sacrifices that they’ve made, and the dedication that they have, and the drive that they have in order to reach that level. And it’s like that in the film at the high school level. And I think that really speaks to your point about the problem is it is somewhat within the house, but it’s upstairs. It’s the parents. It’s the coaches. It’s the spectators. It’s not the people who are actually on the court or the mat or the field.

SARA: Yeah. I want to talk about one other argument and kind of debunk this myth that we’re hearing a lot more recently which is around safety. This whole notion of having to protect the safety of women and girls in women and girl’s sports. And this came up particularly with the San Jose State Women’s Volleyball controversy where a teammate outed a player on her team and this lawsuit ensued. And several teams forfeited the conference, they’re games against San Jose state including my local university here, Boise State University which was really disappointing and frustrating. So help us impact this claim people are making around being concerned about the safety of our girls.

CHRIS: I think safety for all athletes should be a priority in sports in every level of play. Let’s start there. No one wants to see any athlete get hurt. And also, when folks are playing sports, there are inherent risks that are associated with certain sports. So in volleyball as an example, if you don’t get under the ball, you might take a ball to the face. That’s true of every player. That can happen in any match. You look the other way, you’re slightly distracted, you could get popped. In our physical contact or combat sports, we often hear about mixed martial arts. Fallon Fox was out around the time that I was starting to raise my profile. And watching what happened with her in terms of safety and the conversations that were had. This is clearly something that people are very concerned about. And I understand. No one wants to see people get hurt. Also, there is no evidence that trans people increase the risk of danger to any other athlete by being present or playing sports. There’s no evidence that trans people inflict more injuries on other athletes than other athletes. We have to remember that there are risks in every sport. The other piece of this in terms of safety is a little bit of the boogie man. So, honestly, you actually even did it when we were talking about the high school sports. You said, trans boys in boys sports and then you said trans women in women’s sports. And we often see that when folks are talking about the sports issue, the fairness issue, the safety issue. They’ll talk about keeping men out of women’s sports. This is the executive order. This is the rhetoric that you’ll see on certain news channels is we need to keep men out of women’s sports. Men, women, adults. So when we say that, what do you think of? You get a picture of an athlete in our mind. When I say we need to keep a man out of women’s basketball, people are thinking about LeBron James. They’re thinking about a fully grown adult man. But then when they try to apply that to sports, they start to talk about our high school girls, our middle school girls. So they’ll say keeping men out of women’s sports and then try to make rules about our high school and junior high athletes, which are young people. They’re youth. They’re children.

SARA: Yes. There are not 6’5”, 300 lbs. players in middle school.

CHRIS: And no adult man is transitioning to play volleyball with your high school freshman daughter. That’s not happening. But when we confuse the language – and that’s intentional. That’s actually not an accident – they want you to be thinking of a certain image of an athlete who is bigger, faster, stronger, fully grown and then apply that, we need to keep that person out of your daughter's sports team, out of your daughter’s locker room. And that is intentional. That is very specific language to try to create chaos and confusion and fear around trans people’s bodies, their presence, their ability, and their existence. And so that’s what really gets me around this topic in terms of safety. If anything, trans athletes are at a greater risk for discrimination and harassment in locker rooms, walking to and from the bus, being in the stadium and arena from fans and from spectators, from other opposing players. To go to your volleyball example at San Jose State, she had played there for two years. She played all of those teams the year before anybody knew she was trans. And no one had a problem. And every single team played against her and she was not named by name. She was not chosen out. She was not a safety threat to anybody when she was playing the year before. But as soon as they heard that she was transgender, then it became an issue. And I think, for me, that really highlights the idea that this has become so deeply politicized and that it’s not about size or strength or speed or fairness or anything like that. It’s really about identity and politics and trying to keep trans people from living safe and happy and open lives.

SARA: Thank you. That’s really helpful to clarify all of that and helps us give a little bit more teeth and language to how we talk about it. And with that, I’m curious, what can parents do to support their trans kids who are also athletes or who want to play sports and to advocate on behalf of their kids?

CHRIS: Yeah, one thing – and I know that this is probably messaging that goes to all your parents all the time – is to let your child lead. Right? It’s a really interesting situation that a lot of the athletes that I’m talking to in high school don’t want to be out. And especially right now, no one wants to be the next story and such-and-such news channel. No one wants to be the headlines or be named in a presidential tweet. Right?

SARA: Right.

CHRIS: So we know that our young people just want to play. They just want to be accepted by their peers. They just want to have fun. And maybe they’re competitive, maybe they’re not. But they don’t want the spotlight in that way. They don’t want to carry this torch of being the trans athlete and having that impact. And for some of these young people, not just only rule, but also ruin their live. So let your child determine how out they want to be, how loud they want you to be to advocate on their behalf. I think having conversations with coaches and departments and making sure that they’re educated if your child is out is a great idea just to make sure that people are onboard. Trying to identify a safe person within your school or athletic department or the team that you can go to that could just keep tabs on things when you’re not around, or that you know you could go to if you hear something or have an issue. That’s really helpful. And then the final thing I’d say is come to our workshop. We’re going to sort this out. We’re going to talk about it with all of your members who decide to come. So there are lots of talking points that have been tested, ways to have these conversations in the stands, with your coaches, with other parents, that can be really effective. And it all starts with having the right information. So  being able to comfortably and confidently respond to – what do you say when another parent is in the stands and says, “That’s unfair. That kid shouldn’t be on that team.” If you are confident with your talking points and you know what your answers and what your values are, you can express that to them. And I think it’s brilliant because, for the most part, all those folks in the stand are parents or caregivers of the people who are on the court or the field. So you automatically have that common ground. You have that buy-in. Every parent wants their kid to be safe and happy and thrive in life, right? That’s common ground. You can start from there and build into that conversation about fairness or about safety from there.

SARA: That’s great. Thank you. I’m looking forward to this training. It’s going to be great. What would you want coaches and administrators to know about trans athletes that maybe we haven’t yet already discussed?

CHRIS: First of all, no athlete is transitioning for athletic glory. What trans athletes have to deal with, and trans people have to deal with in their lives would never offset your high school championship or a NCAA Title – which is now not possible because trans athletes are banned from college sports. So for young people’s coaches, initially I say, “We just want to be treated like every other athlete. We just want to be a contributing member of our team.” But the asterisk on this is that the political environment, the social environment, actually requires that our coaches and staff look out for us a little bit more. So coaches should be paying attention to what’s happening in the locker room, on the bus, on the practice court and field, and when they’re at games with other players. They really need to be attentive to the conversations that are happening, the way that the athlete is being treated, talked about, and make sure that they are taking action to stand up for that teammate and that athlete just like they would have any other young person.

SARA: Thank you. I think that’s really helpful. This has been such an extraordinary conversation and so rich and powerful. I’m so grateful for your time. We can go on. I have questions that we didn’t get to. I do like to end the podcast with the same two questions that I like to ask all of my guests. And the first one has to do with the Mama Dragons name which came about out of this sense of fierceness and fierce protection for our queer kids. And so I like to ask my guest, other than the topic we’ve just spent an hour talking about, what are you fierce about?

CHRIS: I’m fierce about bodily autonomy for all people. I think that what a brilliant moment we are in right now where so many of our causes can intersect. There’s so much overlap between our fight for trans rights and bodily autonomy and our own health care as well as reproductive justice and reproductive rights. There’s a crossover to racial justice and environmental justice and disability justice. And I just think I am so fiercely passionate about making sure that every person has the ability to make decisions about their body, their lives, and their futures.

SARA: Thank you. That’s fantastic. And my second question is, what is bringing you joy right now? And we really like to name for ourselves that in these times we really need to be finding and cultivating as much joy as possible. So what’s bringing you joy?

CHRIS: Alright. This is going to point out all of the gray hairs on the side of my head, but recently my wife bought a bird feeder that is attached to our window in our bedroom and we call it Bird TV. And I have a little camera set up on it and I have favorite birds. My wife has their favorite birds. And suddenly I’ve hit the age at which birdwatching is fun and cool. And actually, it’s bringing me so much joy because it’s a like a little slice of nature in my day when I don’t always get that. And it’s just so refreshing to watch Bird TV.

SARA: Oh, that’s great. I love it.

CHRIS: So it’s a funny one.

SARA: Great. There’s joy in a lot of unusual and tiny little places. I love it.

CHRIS: Yes. Joy is everywhere that we look for it. It’s really, for me, I think we can find joy in the smallest of places and spaces and there’s so many reasons to be joyful and so many reasons to be hopeful even in this moment, even in this time. And I think it’s really important that we seek those out and that we lean into the places and spaces that give us that joy because this is a long fight that we are fighting. But I’m confident that we will come out on the right side and that we will prevail and that we will see the world that we want to see at some point. But in the meantime, we should find joy and hope and happiness in creating that world, even amidst all the struggles that we’re facing.

SARA: Yes. Thank you. Thanks for that reminder, that inspirational reminder. And thank you, Chris, for being a leader for all of us to look to and for our kids to look to for how to navigate this life and how to advocate and how to celebrate and find joy in being who you are and pursuing all of the things that bring you joy and that make life so meaningful. I have so enjoyed this conversation. Thanks so much for your time.

CHRIS: Thank you. And thank you to all of your listeners for all that they do as well. I really appreciate it.

SARA: Thank you so much for joining us here In The Den. Did you know that Mama Dragons offers an eLearning program called Parachute? This is an interactive learning platform where you can learn more about how to affirm, support, and celebrate the LGBTQ+ people in your life. Learn more at Mamadragons.org/parachute. Or find the link in the episode show notes under links.

If you enjoyed this episode, we hope you’ll take a moment to tell your friends and leave us a positive rating and review wherever it is you listen. Good reviews make us more visible and help us reach more folks who could benefit from being part of this community. And if you’d like to help Mama Dragons in our mission to support, educate, and empower the parents of LGBTQ+ children, please donate at Mama Dragons.org or click the donate link in the show notes. For more information on Mama Dragons and the podcast, you can follow us on Instagram or Facebook or visit our website mamadragons.org.