Coming Out of Your Closet with Ash Beckham

One of the most powerful truths about change is that it often begins in the most ordinary moments—when we choose authenticity, vulnerability, and the courage to be seen. Our guest In the Den today is Ash Beckham, who discovered that courage to be seen, which led her on a surprising journey to advocacy and activism. Ash is an author, advocate, and public speaker known for her viral TEDx talk “Coming Out of Your Closet”. In that powerful speech, Ash reminds us that we are ALL in the closet and invites us to step into empathy by recognizing the silent struggles we all carry. Today Ash and Sara unpack how Ash’s vulnerability—starting with everyday moments—has grown to become a powerful form of activism and inclusion. 

Special Guest: Ash Beckham

Ash Beckham is a mom of two, speaker, career coach, equality advocate, and author of Step Up: How to Live with Courage and Become an Everyday Leader. Ash is an inclusion activist whose TEDx Talk “Coming Out of Your Closet” became a viral sensation. Her intrepid, relatable, and intrinsically comical style has made her an in-demand speaker, including events at Microsoft, Lockheed Martin, Bank of America, and the keynote for the first LGBTQ Conference at Harvard University. 

Links from the Show: 

• Ash’s website: www.ashbeckham.com 
• Ash’s TEDx talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSR4xuU07sc 
• Find Ash on FB: https://www.facebook.com/ashbeckham/ 
• Find Ash on IG: https://www.instagram.com/theashbeckham/
• Find Ash on Twitter: https://twitter.com/ashbeckham
• Find Ash on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ash-beckham/ 
• Buy Step Up here: https://bookshop.org/p/books/step-up-how-to-live-with-courage-and-become-an-everyday-leader-ash-beckham/9833723?ean=9781683643920&next=t 
• Join Mama Dragons today: www.mamadragons.org 

In the Den is made possible by generous donors like you. Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today at www.mamadragons.org.  

Transcript

SARA: Hi everyone. Welcome to In the Den with Mama Dragons. A podcast and community to support, educate, and empower parents on the journey of raising happy and healthy LGBTQ+ humans. I’m your host, Sara LaWall. I’m a Mama Dragon myself and an advocate for our queer community. And I’m so glad to be part of this wild and wonderful parenting journey with all of you. Thanks for joining us. We’re so glad you’re here. 

One of the most powerful truths about change is that it often begins in the most ordinary moments when we choose authenticity or vulnerability or courage. Our guest today discovered that courage, leading her on a surprising journey to advocacy and activism. With us today is Ash Beckham, author, advocate, and public speaker, known for her viral TEDx talk “Coming Out of Your Closet.” In that powerful speech, Ash reminds us that we are all in a closet of some kind, and invites us to step into empathy and recognize those silent struggles that we all carry. What began in Boulder as a simple creative challenge spiraled into this viral spark that Ash could not ignore, and her personal story took flight, and she found herself at the center of conversations she hadn't planned for, but deeply believed in. Ash identifies as a lesbian and speaks candidly about her own journey of gender nonconformity as, not an act of defiance, but an expression of comfort, authenticity, and belonging. We'll unpack how her vulnerability, starting with everyday moments, became a powerful form of activism and inclusion. Ash, welcome to In the Den. It's so good to have you with us. 

ASH: Sarah, thanks, that's the best bio I've ever heard. Thank you so much, I appreciate it.

SARA: I'm so glad. You know, one of the ways that you describe yourself is as an accidental activist. And that is such a great term, and I think a lot of our Mama Dragons probably identify with that. So, I'm curious, tell us, how did that accidental activism come about for you?

ASH: Yeah, absolutely. Well, you're living your life, and I feel like you have this individual version of authenticity. And if any of us are lucky enough to get in the point where we have the community support and the self-confidence to just kind of live our life in that way, sometimes we think that's enough. We're making these changes one at a time, and I think that's wildly impactful. but then all of a sudden, I had this need and desire to have some more self-expression. I felt supported, and I felt that I lived in a place where I could do that, and that just living, walking down the street as my unique self wasn't really enough because I knew so many people at that point that I had grown up with back in the Midwest that didn't have the freedom, is really what it felt like to me, to kind of be themselves. And so I felt like if I had the capacity, then I had the responsibility. I did a Boulder Ignite talk, then the next step was a TEDx talk, and then you kind of have that platform, and then almost how can you not, right? When you feel like those things are starting to resonate, and you're starting to make those connections, and you hear and feel that people don't seem as alone when they relate to you. It's almost a, like, how dare you not move forward, and then all of a sudden I went from being an entrepreneur and kind of pursuing my own thing, to a bigger stage, And I'm super grateful to be able to have that and make those connections, and be a voice, maybe, for people that haven't found theirs yet, or, that don't have the capacity to express it. 

SARA: That's wonderful, and your TEDx talk in Boulder, “Coming out of Your Closet,” went viral. I was just viewing it again, and it’s almost up to 3 million views. I think I contributed to a few of those. And it was so interesting to hear it, because I was like, I have heard this one before. I remember when the first time I listened to it, and it was so powerful. So I want to talk a little bit about that talk that launched this change and pushed you into this kind of advocacy and activism. And in that TED Talk, you say something really interesting. You say that coming out of the closet is a universal experience, that we all have closets. And they may not be gay closets, but we all have them. Can you tell us more about how you understand that to be a universal experience?

ASH: Yeah, I mean, for me, I think there are as many ways to be an advocate as there are advocates out there, right? I think the most impactful advocacy is always when it comes from authenticity. And for me, I just wasn't a jump on the soapbox, hold up the picket sign kind of gal. That just wasn’t my world, and I have great respect for people that do. But that wasn't my mode of change, right? It was telling stories that seemed relatable, and having these connections with people that our experiences aren't really that different. And so if you think about what happens to you personally, right, not the external circumstances, but, like, what does it feel like when you have to tell somebody something. And you don't know what their reaction is going to be. You don't know how the thing that you're going to say, which is true for you, is going to impact the future of that friendship, right? Or the future of that relationship. Does it change the way they see you? Does it change the way they have seen you? Like, how does it change it moving forward? And I feel like so many of us, as human beings, are connected to those people in our lives that any threat or risk to that is often worth making ourselves smaller, telling less of our truth, right? And again, that doesn't matter what is on the other side of that, right? It's that fear that identifying a vulnerability or a truth about yourself will forever impact a relationship you hold dear. That has nothing to do if you're gay or straight, right? That is, like, a human condition. You know, I feel like so many people would be like, “Well, I don't know. I don't know how to be an ally because I've never done that. I've never had to say those words, and I don't envision myself ever having to say those words,” Right. And so it's limiting until we can find the commonality, and the commonality in it is the human experience of fear of risk or judgment by somebody else that's going to impact us. And to me, now we can start having a conversation. You don't have to know what it's like to be me, but you know what it feels like to feel this way.

SARA: Thank you for that. Can you share a little bit about that conversation from your TED Talk that you had with that little girl in the cafe you were working at?

ASH: As so many of us, you kind of land in your own, right? And I feel like I went through a variety of expression, and, you know, we all change it, whether it's, like, the hairstyles, or the way that we dress, or trends that we follow, or whatever that is, the friends we surround ourselves with, what we identify ourselves with, how we create relationships and form and find our identity. And at that point, I had settled in mine pretty comfortably. I was in a good relationship. I lived in a place that was pretty open and affirming, as Boulder, Colorado is, right? I was kind of like hitting my stride for a while. But that's the thing, like, you can create the most insular communities in the world, right? Whether that's a workplace, or a religious community, or your own chosen family, or your birth family, right? Like, you can be as insular and supportive as possible and you still have to go to the grocery store. And you still have to go to school. And you still interact with the rest of society, right? And you have maybe an umbrella of protection, but the stings still sting. Right? And so I was working at this place. I would get so angry when I would be challenged. People would be like, “What are you, a boy or are you a girl?” And I felt so comfortable in myself, looking in the mirror for the first time, right? But then the world sees you, and they don't see it in the same way, and there's questions. And how do you square those two things, right? And so my response was, like, anger. And in offense, I think, “Really?” and, like, and a responsibility to the parents, right? Like, I worked in a cafe, and it was a breakfast place, we had families in a lot, and, you know, what are you teaching your kids? I had supportive parents, but gender norms were gender norms, right? Like, are you just buying your girls dolls and your boys trucks? You have responsibility in opening their eyes as well. And I'm not the first gay person they're ever going to meet, right? And so, I knew I was going to have to say something, because every time I would go up to the table, I was just so angry. It's like a terrible way to just go through the world and also make a living if you're working for tips, so I was like, I'm going to have to say something, so I had this, like it was all planned out, right? I was like I'm going to say this, I have all these little sound bites I'm going to do, but then you find yourself in the moment, right? And I was bringing all my baggage, and then I looked, and it was, like, just a 4-year-old with a question. I didn't have kids, now I have a 4-year-old, and I know those questions are constant, and they couldn't be more innocent, right? Like, “Are you a boy or a girl?” doesn't have the slight, or the judgment. It's like, is this a chair or a table, right? You're categorizing things, and seeing things that are unfamiliar, right? And that's all it is. And so, I realized at that, that, you know, coming down on a 4-year-old wasn't going to make me feel better. It wasn't going to make them feel any connection and that anger wasn't what I wanted. Could I be an educator and still hold my identity true, right? Could it be an olive branch instead of a switch, right? And so that was kind of the change, and you just, like, looked at this kid and it was just purely authenticity on her end, right? Like, it was genuinely just a question. And she moved on, right? I wasn't worried about anything else. I asked the question, they move on to the next thing, and so that, to me, was really, it changed the way that I saw everything, that when you show up authentically, it challenges by nature, the other person to do the same thing. Whether they do or not, I think, is debatable. But if you want people to be authentic, and you want them to be honest, you have to be willing to do the same thing yourself.

SARA: Yeah, I love the response you shared, how you gave her that very beautiful answer about, “You know, sometimes people like to wear different things, and this is who I am,” and she's like, “Oh yeah, that's cool, can I have some pancakes?”

ASH: Yeah. It's like, next. Next thing.

SARA: Like, added it to her understanding and moved right along, and that was a really sweet moment to just remind us that maybe sometimes we're building up this armor and this expectation of what these interactions might be like, and they might turn out to be different.

ASH: And you'll never know, right? And I think that the armor is reasonable. Like, enough of us have been through enough of the hits and enough of the judgments, and enough of the things to know the threats are real. Right? And especially as parents, we are ultra-protective. And we would always err on judging somebody else at the expense of even the slight possibility of a risk of our kid. It's not even a calculation. Right? You're always going to do that. But I think, at the same time, we miss some opportunities, right? And I think their journey and our journey, although parallel, our kids' journey, is not the same journey, right? Like, we have these environments where we can step in and be authentic, where we can be vulnerable without them being vulnerable, right? And those things become so entangled that I think to do the work to make the change, we have to be willing to disentangle enough, and know that it is scary for us to be vulnerable as well. Not on behalf of our kid, right, but just us as separate humans to be vulnerable is challenging. 

SARA: Absolutely. You get at some of that a little bit by sharing your own experience of being in the closet, and hiding your queer identity. And can you share a little bit with us about your journey of discovering and embracing your identity?

ASH: Yeah, I'm 52, almost 53, and I was a kid in the 70s and 80s, in suburban Toledo, Ohio, which was a union town, but blue in a – it's called Holy Toledo for a reason, right? Like there is a lot of Midwestern Big ‘D’ Democrats still with the church, right? My parents, as well, had been taught forever two different things, I guess, with my parents. My dad was raised Catholic, so he was always taught that being gay was wrong. So he couldn't, like, square that. My mom was in fashion and super progressive and, like, just this powerhouse of the businesswoman even in the 70s. And she was so scared of what would happen to me. She was fine with gay people, she just wasn't fine with her kid being gay. Right? And so my parents were coming from these two different perspectives, neither of them could kind of square that. And so I wasn't, you know, lucky, unlucky, enlightened, unenlightened, maybe. But, like, I never went through high school not, like, thinking I was gay and being scared. t just never crossed my mind. It was just like romantic relationships never clicked for me. There was nothing on TV that you saw, right? Like, it just didn't make sense. I mean, I remember the first time – in the moment I didn't know – but I remember seeing Top Gun in the movie theater, and all my friends were, like, all about Tom Cruise, and all the things, whatever. And Kelly McGillis was the opposite, and I was like. Wait a second, right? Like, all of a sudden, there was, like, something that, like my lens kind of changed a little bit, and I was like, I don't know what that means, but I didn't know who I wanted to be, or who I wanted to be with, like, it was very confusing to me. And then I went off to college, and did things, whatever. And then the first time I kissed a woman, everything made sense to me. Like, every love song made sense. Everything made sense. And then absolutely after the first breakup, then everything fell into place, right? I would call every guy. I was lucky. I dated really, really good guys through high school. And I want to call them all back and be like, “I am so sorry.” I didn't know what it meant to have a broken heart. Right? And then I did. And then all of a sudden everything in the world makes sense, and it's that same idea that whatever – 25 years later after that on the TEDx stage – you know what it feels like to have your heart broken. And it doesn't matter who broke it. Right? Like, you know that “in a pool, puddle on the ground in your bedroom” feeling of having your heart broken. That's humanity, right? Falling in love, also humanity, right? Like, who's on the other end of it? It doesn't matter. It's the same thing with parenting, right? Like, you're scared for your kids' well-being, no matter who your kid is. You could have, like, the greatest, most traditional cisgendered white male kid, and you are still scared to death about their everyday. Right? And we can relate on those things, and then you kind of work through the nuance of what those threats are, how real they are, how frequent they are, what that looks like. I get that. But, like, we are two parents. It doesn't matter who our kids love. It doesn't matter who either of us are partnered with. Like, I think that's what has completely changed the LGBTQ movement was everybody coming out of the closet for the most part, and not being like, well, my soccer coach is gay, or my pediatrician is gay, or the guy that paints my house, right? Like, it's my sister. It's like, they're everywhere, and so we start to see the humanity because we realize it's not a “Them,” it's an “Us.” Like, we're everywhere, people just need to know that we're there.

SARA: Yeah, those commonalities that we all share, that is a really beautiful reminder that there really is, when it comes, when we kind of strip away all of the excess and the external stuff, there's some really deep shared empathy and common ground that's possible. And I'm curious, how do you think about this particular moment that we're in, where we know that, maybe we can see that, maybe we can say that, but there's still this chasm between people, because of values, identities, political beliefs. And that common ground, there's, like, I feel like there's a hole in the bridge. 

ASH: Yeah. Absolutely.

SARA: I'm curious what you think about that.

ASH: Yeah, no. I completely agree. And in the current state of what the rhetoric is, and the, what feels like somehow, some more socially acceptable version of violence is the answer, is terrifying for parents. Especially parents of queer kids, right? Let alone the direct threats and attack on healthcare, and all the other things that are out there, right? And I think an intention of the separation is to pull people up and see their differences. And the differences are the things that make them safe, right? My kid's not gay, therefore that is not a threat to me, my family is safer because of it. Right? And so, which I think is, like, a human reaction. Like, I don't blame anybody who thinks that. But in your analogy of, like, the hole in the bridge, I think the most important thing is not to try to find people on the furthest opposite side of the bridge. Right? You find the people that are closest to you. The people that are in the middle, that are just on the other side are the people that are going to mend that bridge. The people on either end aren't going to be the bridge menders. Right? It's going to be the people that are closest in the center. And that's where the majority of us are. It's such the beautiful thing about empathy, right? Like, if I am willing – I have to have a willingness and a curiosity -- but if I'm willing and curious to be in your shoes, I can connect to you. I don't have to agree with you. I have no vested interest in changing your mind. I need to understand why you're there, because I think people aren't inherently hateful. You go to the ends of the bridge? Sure, maybe. But you go in the center, the people that are the most at risk, that are closest, that want to cross it, right, those are the people that are going to be willing to understand a different perspective, a slightly different perspective. The ways that we're similar is so much closer than the ways that we're different. Right? Yeah, there's a few things that are different but the vast majority of the things that we're connected on, or it can at least see eye to eye on. So I think we don't have to make those huge leaps, we make those smaller connections. But I think we genuinely have to have that curiosity and let go of the desire of changing anybody else's mind. 

SARA: That's really hard. 

ASH: Yeah. 

SARA: Yes, it's really hard. In the work that you're doing now in your public speaking, in your coaching, are you finding yourself in spaces in the middle, where there are people in the middle, and what is that experience like? How do you, how do people experience you in those spaces and your work? 

ASH: Yeah, Yeah, absolutely. I think even still, especially in the current environment, people think that – I mean, you can't even say DEI anymore without people coming for you, right, with the pitchforks. So, you know, when you're looking at inclusion which, the fact that that word is also a threat, is crazy-making to me because if you look at – you know, mostly I do businesses, and if you look at organizations, it is across-the-board proven, and study after study, that diverse, inclusive businesses outperform their industry averages every time because diverse thought leads to more creativity, more innovation, better recruitment and retention. Not because you have somebody gay, because you've created a culture where people are valued exactly for who they are, that their individual perspective, not because of the desk that they sit at, because of the life they've lived to get to that desk, is what brings value to your organization. We are doing a disservice to our kids to not prepare them for the global world that they are going to enter by not teaching them how to honor and respect difference as a contributor to betterment, as opposed to a detractor. So, it's silly. And companies and organizations that can't do it are going to be left behind and people that are in the workforce that are not comfortable and knowledgeable in it, are putting themselves at a competitive disadvantage in getting hired. So that's just my PSA on the stats of the impact of inclusion in organizations. That being said… 

SARA: Well, I have more questions about that because in this shift in your career, you've also published a book on leadership called Step Up, How to Live with Courage and Become an Everyday Leader. And so I'm curious, what tips do you give businesses and companies when you're in front of them and talking about this – maybe in veiled terminology in these times – but what do you say to them about how they can embody inclusion in the workplace?

ASH: Absolutely. Well, the reason I wrote the book, I would go and do these talks, right, we would talk about empathy. And we would talk about individuality. And we'd talk about vulnerability. And we'd talk about authenticity, right? All these things that are these, like, soft skills in the workplace that really help you create your own leadership brand. And folks would come, and they would be like, “Ash, it was a great talk. When I… I'm going to implement those strategies, when I have that many direct reports, when I have this title after my name, when I get that degree, when my budget line is 10 million.” Right? There was always, like, a thing that they needed to get to to self-identify as a leader. I would go in these rooms, and I would say, “Alright, who thinks they're a leader, in the most, you know, not by title. Right? Who thinks they're a leader?” Like, 40% of the room would raise their hand. And then you say, “Who thinks the person to the left of them is a leader?” And 90% of the people would raise their hand. So it was a self-perception problem. Right? It doesn't have to be Director. There's nothing in there that says that you get to be a leader. You can be a leader right now. So the book was written for everybody from a Fortune 50 CEO to the kids sitting at the bench on the 8th grade basketball team. Right? Like, you can lead from wherever you are with these strategies that allow you to be the best version of yourself. And the idea in the book is you go through empathy and individuality and courage and humility and eight different steps. And the idea is, they say “When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.” But if you have this toolset, every environment you walk into, every challenge you have, when you have a leadership opportunity is going to present differently. Right? How I'm talking to 4-year-olds in a classroom is different than when I'm talking to an executive team, is different when I'm talking to my mom or my wife. Right? And so, when I assess the situation, we have conflict or disagreement or something we need, it's a leadership opportunity, I need to be able to assess which of my tools best fit this scenario to get the outcome I want, to have the person seen and valued, to create a collaborative environment for me to remain curious and always learn. Like, what am I bringing to the table in that moment that fits the scenario, that allows me to be the leader that I want to be? I'm not the same in all of those environments. Those contexts are not all the same. So how am I, as a leader, adapting versatile enough and adept enough at reading the situation to know what is required of me to be the person I want to be in this scenario. And that translates business, classrooms, any of the things. Right? 

SARA: Relationship. 

ASH: All of it. 

SARA: Yeah. That sounds like a really good framework just for how to be human. 

ASH: Yeah, and I feel like that's what it is. And that's why it doesn't matter if it's somebody in the C-suite, or somebody on the bench of the basketball team. Like, it's all the same, and now, at this point I feel like, to differentiate between personal and professional development is just silly, because we're developing humans. Right? And although the tools that you have -- but, like, authenticity, you want it to get to the point where it's not something that you do, it's something that you are. Right? You don't have to think about being authentic. You are just authentic. And you know and feel when you are inauthentic, and then you correct as quickly as possible. Right? But that it is just a way that you exist on this earth, not that you're the same in every situation, right, but who you are in your core is the same. Right? Your integrity stays the same. There are some things about you, no matter if you're sitting down with your infant or you're in the boardroom, there are certain traits about you that are unchanging, unwavering. Right? And that's authenticity.

SARA: I appreciate that, because I'm also thinking about your talk and your work and your own sharing about trying on different ways of being and expressing yourself in the world. And maybe in part to figure out where, what is that authentic core in me? Where does that live? How does that work? And I appreciate that, alongside the invitation to find that authentic core and know that it's unchangeable. But that also, sometimes in our lives, we're going to go through different experiments. And it's okay to experiment. I think especially for our queer community, for our queer kids who are just coming out, that permission to kind of try things on and explore and be the militant lesbian, and then come over here and find something different, helps you figure out who your authentic self is. 

ASH: Yeah. And that's such a beautiful way that I feel like the world is right now. I feel like when I came out, it was like a conscious – it felt to me, my experience, was that it was a conscious decision to choose a life, choose this path, right? And if I was a lesbian, I was not going to have kids. At that point, I wasn't going to get – you know, this was, like, the early 90s – I wasn't going to get married. I was going to buy a lot of flannel shirts. I was either going to work at, like, UPS or be a gym teacher. I was gonna have a lot of cats. Right? Like, there was an archetype of what it meant, and like, I was consciously choosing that life. And there was no other version of that life – again I lived in Ohio in the 90s, so – but, like, there was no other, to me in my teens, that was the life I was choosing. Do you want it or not? Right? And so there was no authenticity in that because I could either be untrue to myself, if that's not what I wanted. There was no make your own path, right? And I feel like now that fluidity, although I think it becomes challenging, and certainly challenging for parents, as we're navigating kind of this wild time anyway, if our kids are figuring all of this out at whatever age that's happening. I think fluidity can be hard. But I think to give them the permission, like you said, to try things on. That you're not set and stuck in anything. And, like, that's the thing about authenticity. What's authentic to you at 8 or 18 is not authentic to you at 48. It's a moving target, right? It's like, in any given moment, your authenticity is rooted in what you think, like the facts that you know, what you feel, your heart and what you want, which is your gut. Right? That's how you know what it is. All of those things change constantly. Facts-ish, stay the same but those other feelings you have to check in. It is a personal practice to know what your authenticity is in any given moment. So, it should change. Right? Like, the more you experience life, who you want to be and how you want to exist in it is influenced by all the things that you see and experience, right? You see people and you decide, “Oh yeah, yeah, I want to be like that.” Or, “I absolutely don't want to be like that.” Or, “I want a relationship like that,” or whatever. Right? It changes, and so for us to expect rigidity, or have that be the end goal of authenticity being something we achieve, is just unrealistic. 

SARA: That's great. That's really helpful, and your story also makes me think about how, especially in the 90s, there was still a lot of understanding of binaries in terms of gender roles and gender expression, even in more progressive spaces around queerness. And you've described your own gender expression as being more about comfort, simply about comfort, and not rebellion. And I'm curious how that understanding came to you, and how you understand that, how that has shaped how you show up in the world? 

ASH: Well, I think we all go through phases, right? Like, I shave my head. I did all the things. And I was like, as I was figuring out my gender expression, the idea was, like if people were going to stare at me, or double-take an extension of Bonnie Ray, let's give them something to look at. Right? Like, all right, fine. I will turn this thing upside down, and I don't care. And it was like a shock and awe. Right? Going into a bathroom has always been hard for me. Right? Like, when you are gender neutral in the way that I am, that feels like a threat to people. And obviously bathrooms are so loaded. But even to me in that context walking into a bathroom, I was always on the defensive, because I thought I was going to get, “Well, what are you doing in here? You're in the wrong place.” The idea of being under a spotlight, singled out for your individuality, and completely unseen, that feeling, to me, the root of it. I went through a phase where I was like, I'm going to be seen. I will be unmistakable, and it will be on my terms. Right? I won't be somebody you walk by and don't take a second glance at. By definition, you will take a second glance at me. Right? Because then you're controlling, right? You're controlling how the outside world interacts with you. But then I think you get to a point that you realize at the end of the day, what matters is that you land well in yourself to me. And because it was provocative. Right? I mean, I was very intentionally provocative. And again, my experience, some people do that forever. It was exhausting. Right? Like, for me, that was an exhausting way to go through life. And so, I just needed to kind of not care, right? Like, to not give a bleep about what other people thought. Right? And, like, once I landed in that, life just got easier. Right? And again, everybody's experience is different. This is just mine, but I didn't walk around tense. I wasn't ready to fight. I wasn't intentionally provoking people to create conflict, to make people more uncomfortable than they made me, right? I was like prejudging people in an effort to do it before they got to me. Right? And that didn't feel like how I wanted to go through life. It’s too combative. It just wasn't me as a human. And so then what are your options? Right? I'm also not going to be a wallflower. It's like, once you come out, you can't go back in. Right? So, like, land in it, because I've found that when I'm comfortable with myself, everybody around me is more comfortable, too. More people, a higher percentage of people… 

SARA: A higher percentage of people. 

ASH: … are more comfortable because there are – I have two kids now, I have a 7-year-old and a 4-year-old. And now they're starting to kind of figure it out. The 4-year-old, they look twice, or you know, my hair's gray. So I get called grandma a lot. We're figuring it out, and like, how do you respond in those moments? But I am not a 14-year-old queer kid in a conservative space. Right? This is, I’m a 52-year-old gay woman. I feel confident where I am at that moment. It took me this long to get here. But you land, and you get genuinely curious, like why do you ask me that? You go back at them with questions, and you get to understand people a little bit more, and understand that perspective a little bit more. I met somebody at a conference once, and they were explaining how they were from Utah, and they were going with their trans son into a state representative’s office to advocate against the bathroom bill. And there was a – they had, like, lobbyist that was with them. And they were nervous. The kid's nervous. The dad’s nervous. Everybody's nervous. And they weren't ready for this. And what do they say? And what do they think? What if we don't change his mind? And the lobbyist’s advice was, “Our job isn't to go in there and change his mind. Our job is to go in there and have him doubt the certainty of his position ever so slightly.” Right? And so if we look at so much weight to think that that 15-second soundbite is going to change somebody's mind. Right? You just want to make people think about everything just a little bit differently. That's it. And if that's all you have to do, then the weight's off your back, right? It's not that hard. It’s not a win-lose, right? That's easy. That's like, just by existing, you've made them think. Right? So, I think this is hard work, and the areas where we can make it easier on ourselves, I think we have to take advantage of that. So much pressure of, especially as parents, all the things we want to change, and the policy, the thing, and the threats, and the all bullying, and all the things. It's so much. But the human connection and knowing that it doesn't, maybe, happen at the scale that we're looking for. But the impact is so much greater and deeper. And the toll that it takes on us isn't as bad. So maybe it's, we don't let go of the policy and the advocacy, right? But we give ourselves a break that it's not a failure if we walk out of an interaction and we didn't change somebody's mind. 

SARA: Yeah, that is really helpful. And it's so important. So hard to remember in these particular times, too, when it just feels like . . . 

ASH: Yeah. Sure.

SARA: . . . an onslaught of attacks. Now that you are a parent, and many of our listeners are parents of LGBTQ+ kids, I'm curious what advice you might have for parents, as we are walking alongside our queer kids?

ASH: Yeah, I would say, parenting is hard. It's so hard. Like, and every phase is hard. Every time, as everybody that's listening to this Podcast knows, like, every time you think you got it figured out, it's just a slap in the face. Right? For me, we figured out with the first one, I was like, okay, great, perfect. We've got it separate. They're completely different humans. They landed on the Earth differently. They will always be different. So we're like, well, what was all of that for? Right? Like, we already did this, and I figured it out, finally. And now we're going to do it again? And the answer's not the same. It's like changing math, right? So, I think it's challenging. I think exactly what you said is you walk with them. Right? Like, you're there for the good times and the bad times. You shield them when you need to. But I think it's impossible and a disservice to our kid to try to curate these environments where they don't deal with challenges. Right? Like, of course we keep them safe, but at a certain point, they're just not going to be with us. And they need to develop their own tools, which might not be ours, in existing in a world that may not understand them. Right? And so, it is like, uh, it's exactly what you said. We are with them. Right? And we can't feel it for them. And there are times that we need to protect them. But at the same time, like, what does “with” look like? What does your kid need “with” to be? Right? Like, “Is this a problem that you want to talk about with me? Is this a problem that you want my advice on how to address? Are you, like, calling in the cavalry? I am showing up in the way that you need me to show up.” It is like the ultimate ally. Right? Is the LGBTQ+ parent because what they need is so much more important than, what you need, right? Like, how do they need you to be? And there's going to be times that they're going to call you in and be like, “You need to talk to somebody. Figure it out.” Right? Or, as parents, we're going to jump in and be like, “Alright, this one's gone too far. I'm inserting myself in this situation.” Right?

SARA: It's hard sometimes, I think, to thread that needle between what tuning in and asking questions to figure out what they actually need, as opposed to what I think they need.

ASH: Absolutely. And I think, of course, you know, obviously paramount is always safety. And I think we're just as honest and transparent with our kids as we possibly can. Right? Like, to say, “I'm worried about dot, dot, dot”. Right? Like, do you have to tell them that you're scared every single time they walk out the door because it's, like, your heart leaving your body and walking around the world. Sure, like, they don't need to know all of that. But, like, “I am concerned about this. This worries me,” right? And you can still be their rock. You can be their protector. You can be their shelter and acknowledge that, like, you're scared too. Right? And then I think they can tell you, “Ah, I don't even worry about that.” It's not going to stop you from worrying about it. But we have to be able to know which of our worries are we projecting on our kids. Right? And which of them are their actual genuine concerns, and where our concerns and their concerns, like, in that Venn diagram, overlap, that's our space, like when our radar goes off. And again, like, they're kids. Some that they're oblivious to, but probably not as much as we think or hope they are. Right? So I think it's just continuing conversations. And that it's going to change. And that we talk about the little stuff so the big stuff doesn't seem so big, and that everything is big to them, right? 

SARA: Yeah. 

ASH: And we get in our lives, in the world, in the dinner, and the mortgage, and all the things, right? And you're like, “Oh my god. It’s fine. It's fine. It's fine, it's fine.” Right? But every time they bring something to us, to the best of our ability, even if we can't do it in the moment, how do we land and honor the thing that matters to them even if it doesn't make that big of a difference to us. So when the things that really matter, it doesn't feel scary to come to us. We can receive all of that. None of their emotions, none of their experiences are too big and too scary for us to handle. We’ll just be with you while you do it. 

SARA: Yeah. That is the challenge. And I'm curious, in your family as queer parents, are your kids asking questions or finding themselves curious about the LGBTQ+ community and queer identities? I asked, because I'm reminded of this story as you were talking of Tig Nitaro and her wife in the car, tell the story about they were just talking about, you know, some friends who were gay, and their 7-year-old pipes up in the back and says, “Are you gay?” And they both were like. “What? Why is that the question and the context?” And I thought that's such a beautiful story of how it's just parents and life is so normalized in their house, their own child didn't really think about language to describe what their life was like. I'm curious how it shows up in your family.

ASH: Yeah, no, very similar. Like, I feel like 7 must be the magical age, because our 7-year-old is kind of in that same space. We're going to, really good friends are getting married this weekend, and we're going. And, he was like, “Ah, is it another gay wedding?” Like, that was his take, “Well, yeah, yeah, buddy. It is. And it's going to be awesome. And we're so excited about it.” But yeah, it took him a while to kind of figure it out. But I remember when we, it must have been back in February – or maybe when the election was over, but I think it was, when the inauguration was – and you know, we were having conversations of like, what was happening. People were leaving the states, or whatever. And then we're like, “Well, you know, buddy, there was a time that your mom and I couldn't get married.” And that, like, blew his mind, that that was a possibility, right? And then, what did he say recently? Oh, “Do people hate you?” That was his, like, me, specifically, because he knows I’m on YouTube and all of the things. And I was like, “Yeah, yeah, buddy, I'm sure there are. I don't know them. And I would talk to them.” And so it feels like, as he's figuring it out, it's almost like he's doing a threat assessment, you know what I mean, of, like “What does that mean? Is it dangerous?” How do we have these conversations? Our oldest had a really hard time. We went to this preschool where we got to know everybody. We went through COVID together, became really good friends of ours. We knew everybody. And they knew Lacey and I before they even had words, they knew whose parents belonged to us. And we had, you know, these kids had two moms, and it was, again, it's like one of those categorization things. So, Luke, our oldest, never had to come out. Right? Like, people always knew he had two moms. Then he goes to kindergarten. And all of a sudden, he's got to come out. Over and over and over again on the playground.

SARA: Wow.

ASH: And that one, that was rough. We were underprepared. It was like, drop him off at the door, and he walks in his little entrance, and, like, that's it. And it's a great school, and great support. And I think he had – I don't know if in that class he had another same-sex parent – but kids do that forming and norming. You come together. How are we alike? How are we different? And that felt very isolating for him, and has kind of continued. We, like, went through this phase where he was playing football. I was one of the assistant coaches. And he didn't want Lacey to come to the games because he didn't want the other kids on the team to know he had two moms. We were working through it in a big way. And so it is a soft spot for him because it makes him feel different. And I think he's starting to realize that that is just what his life is like, you know what I mean? That that is a thing, and people move through, and we're like overly involved in all the things, so everybody knows who we are. We have a great community. But it is real for him, and we never really thought about that. We were, like in our friend group, one of the last couples to have kids. And so the kids had gone through it, and we had never heard much about those struggles, right? And all of them have kind of moved beyond it, and all of the things. But it is, it's one that we're still kind of working through. 

SARA: Yeah, thanks for sharing that. I think that's a really helpful perspective for other parents, particularly queer parents, to hear. Like you said, it's not something folks talk about all the time, and to hear that other people are sharing these same struggles is always so lovely, and so helpful. Ash, how can allies and parents practice the kind of everyday courage that you talk about in your work.?

ASH: I mean, I think it's that modeling, right, that we do that as a parent, or as a human, right? We should do something every day that scares us. That feeling in the pit of your stomach, that everyday courage, right? Like, our goal is never to get rid of that feeling. It is like a pure animalistic response, right? Like, courage is not the absence of fear, it's feeling the fear and doing it anyway. So when you have that, and I think a lot of times now, it's, like, awkward conversations, or, you know, like, the things that make us just uncomfortable. Right? They aren't necessarily fearful, but you're like, “Nah, it's just easier if I didn't. I want to. But I got that feeling. Forget it.” I think if we can do something every day that is what growth is, is doing something, because then that just raises our bar of tolerance of what it means to sit in uncomfortable situations, uncomfortable silence with your kid, uncomfortable interactions at the PTO meeting, right? We try to get out of discomfort so easily, so quickly, right, which is just, like, an innate human characteristic. If we can build up our threshold to sit in the awkward just a little bit longer, it really increases our ability to be in so many different situations, scenarios, that that feeling of, like, “Yeah,” gets a little bit less. And so, when we have hard conversations with our kids, or our kids' friends, like, that's such a huge piece of it to me, whether you're listening to this and you're the parent of an LGBTQ kid or not, there is going to be an LGBTQ kid in your life at some point. By definition. Like, it's just, you're going to be your friend's friend who's figuring something out, or the fluidity of where everything happens, right? And you can be the safe space. It's going to be your co-worker’s brother, whose kid is coming out, right? These one-offs are so apparent now, and if you are the ally, you can be straight, white, cisgendered with straight, white, cisgendered kids, right? Like, you could live in that world. And you can still be an ally to people because you are accepting. Right? Because you understand what's in a pronoun, right? Because you have a wealth of knowledge around those things that we don't always have to. Allies are people that stand with. Allies are people that don't have the same experience, but understand and empathize, right? Like, allies are the people that are, by definition, different. But I don't think we can say enough about the impact of allies, because they're the ones that are having the conversations. It's a lot easier – and I always think of this as in a men's locker room, right? Like, I can be the best advocate in the world. I can be amazing. I'm never going to be in a men's locker room. But if I have my straight buddy who hears somebody use the word “gay” in a negative way in a locker room and can correct it, it's access to places we will never be doing the work in a way that is general advocacy, as opposed to what could appear as self-centered advocacy. Right? It is exhausting to advocate for ourselves. It's exhausting to have our kids advocate for themselves. But to have people around that can do it, where you can pass the baton, where you're at the PTO meeting, you'll be like, “I actually don't want to talk about my gay kid, but my friend can.”

SARA: Yeah. 

ASH: Right? Like, that's what we need. We need those voices to step in when we're too scared, or it feels too vulnerable to do it and fight the cause in our place.

SARA: I love that. I want to just reiterate that for a moment, because I feel like that's a really clear place, but a lot of our Mama Dragons understand and can come from in that, and most of us, or all of us, are parents of queer kids. But thinking about how can we help people speak up on behalf of queer kids in those educational spaces in particular, so we're not having to do it all the time. And become a broken record. And really just have the support. So I think that's just a really good nugget to takeaway for people.

ASH: And you know that people are like, they see, they're like, “Oh, here's another email from Sara. It's probably going to be about…” you know what I mean? 

SARA: Yes, I do.

ASH: Exactly, but then all of a sudden, you have this critical mass of people that feel the same thing, that understand why, that can have the conversations, or can have the conversations directly. Like, the ripple effect, I think, that allies allow us to have is, you cannot underestimate that impact. 

SARA: That's wonderful. Thank you. Gosh, this conversation has flown by. It has been so wonderful. I want to remind our listeners that we'll put a link to Ash's book in our show notes, and you can go to the Mama Dragons Bookshop and order it there. And we'll also make sure to put a link to that wonderful TEDx talk “Coming Out of Your Closet.” It's only 9 minutes, and it's worth a listen multiple times. Highly recommend. But before I let you go, Ash, we have some final questions that we like to ask all of our guests at the end of every episode. And the first question has to do with the Mama Dragon's name. And it came about out of a sense of fierceness and fierce protection for our kids, as we've been talking about. So we like to ask our guests, what is it you are fierce about? 

ASH: I mean, I would say my kids, for sure. That's why the dragon idea is just so fascinating to me, right? There's, like, there's a strength and a power and a fierceness about it, and also an elegance, right? Like, there's no way it should fly. If you look at its body mass versus its wings, right? But we're all doing it, and I feel like that's what you feel like as a parent on most days, right? If, like, there's no way this works but at the end of the day it worked. I flew. Right? That's what we're looking for, so I think that that – I think around kids, it is really hard to retract the talons sometimes. But I think part of the strength that we have is knowing that it's there. Right? If we ever need the fire, it's there. It doesn't take me a lot to call it up. But, if we're trying to build community, maybe, like, not fire first is like my mentality. Right? Like, it's there. Don't make me get it out, I will. That won't bode well for you on the other side of it. But how can we pull it back a little bit to just make a little bit more connection? 

SARA: Love it. Thank you for sticking with that metaphor for us. That was wonderful. The last question that we have for you is, what is bringing you joy right now, especially in these times, we’re trying to remind ourselves that we need to cultivate as much joy as possible?

ASH: My boys are 7 and 4. And they have recently, and they just tap into it's a moment at a time, where they, we're out of the room, and they have each other uncontrollably laughing about something. And, like, usually, like, farts or butts or whatever, it's something gross, And you hear that joy, and just that pure laughter and love. And I could listen to that soundtrack. It doesn't matter how the rest of the day is going. That one glimpse of joy really lights me up, especially, especially now. 

SARA: That's fantastic. Thanks so much for your time and your work, and being a part of the community, this has been a great conversation. 

ASH: I appreciate it, Sara, thanks for all that you're doing, and the podcast is doing. Everybody out there is a great parent. I hope somebody tells them that today.

SARA: Oh, thank you. Thank you so much for listening to In the Den. Did you know that Mama Dragons offers an eLearning program called Parachute? This is an interactive learning platform where you can learn more about how to affirm, support, and celebrate the LGBTQ+ people in your life. Learn more at mamadragons.org/parachute or find the link in the episode show notes under links. 

If you enjoyed this episode, we hope you’ll take a moment to tell your friends and leave us a positive rating and review wherever it is you listen. Good reviews make us more visible and help us reach more folks who could benefit from being part of this community. And if you’d like to help Mama Dragons in our mission to support, educate, and empower the parents of LGBTQ+ children, please donate at mamadragons.org or click the donate link in the show notes. For more information on Mama Dragons and the podcast, you can follow us on Instagram or Facebook or visit our website mamadragons.org.