Unlearning Bias and Embracing Your Queer Child

Content Warning: this episode contains frank discussions of self-harm and suicidality.

At Mama Dragons we know the value of shame-free spaces where parents of LGBTQ+ kids can explore, learn, and grow. Building families and communities rooted in genuine support is an important part of creating healthy futures for our queer children. Today In the Den, Sara visits with creator, author, and speaker Heather Hester about parenting LGBTQ+ children, unlearning the biases of our past, and learning to embrace, empower, and love our queer kids more fully. 

Special Guest: Heather Hester 

Heather Hester is the creator and host of the podcast More Human. More Kind., founder of Chrysalis Mama, and author of Parenting with Pride: Unlearn Bias and Embrace, Empower, and Love Your LGBTQ+ Teen. She is a speaker, writer, and fierce advocate helping parents, allies, and organizations move from confusion and fear to compassion and courageous action. 

When her son came out as gay in 2017, it ignited a journey of unlearning, deep personal growth, and radical love. She quickly realized the need for more supportive, shame-free spaces for parents of LGBTQ+ kids and those seeking to become better allies. What began as a content-rich website and podcast has grown into a platform offering inclusive coaching, LGBTQ+ and Human-First consulting, and storytelling-driven workshops and talks.

Heather is married to the funniest guy she’s ever known and mom to their four extraordinary kids (two of whom are LGBTQ), and one super sassy mini Bernedoodle. She’s a weather nerd, a lover of indie bookstores and coffee shops, and a yogi who believes in the magic of connection and that belonging isn’t just a feeling—it’s a practice.

Links from the Show:

• Heather’s Podcast, More Human, More Kind: https://www.morehumanmorekind.com/ 
• Heather’s book: https://bookshop.org/p/books/parenting-with-pride-unlearn-bias-and-embrace-empower-and-love-your-lgbtq-teen-heather-hester/f658509f6a467cac?ean=9781641709125&next=t 
• Chrysalis Mama on FB: https://www.facebook.com/chrysalismama 
• Join Mama Dragons today: www.mamadragons.org  

In the Den is made possible by generous donors like you. Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today at www.mamadragons.org.  

Transcript

SARA: Hi everyone. Welcome to In the Den with Mama Dragons. A podcast and community to support, educate, and empower parents on the journey of raising happy and healthy LGBTQ+ humans. I’m your host, Sara LaWall. I’m a Mama Dragon myself and an advocate for our queer community. And I’m so glad to be part of this wild and wonderful parenting journey with all of you. Thanks for joining us. We’re so glad you’re here. 

At Mama Dragons, we know the value of shame-free space. Particularly for parents of LGBTQ+ kids, spaces where we can explore, learn, and grow, and build families and communities rooted in genuine support. Our guest today shares that very same mission. With us In the Den is Heather Hester, founder of Chrysalis Mama. Heather is a speaker, coach, consultant, and someone whose journey has reshaped what it means to parent with courage and compassion.

When her son Connor came out in 2017, Heather realized what many parents do: Love is fierce. But navigating this terrain can feel overwhelming when society hasn't prepared you for it. What followed for Heather and her family was a story full of heart-wrenching moments, deep learning, and ultimately a profound transformation which she turned into a place for other parents on this journey to find hope and healing. Heather, welcome to In the Den. It's so good to have you with us. 

HEATHER: Thank you so, so much. It is a delight to be here with you. I have followed you for a little bit of time here, and I am honored to be In the Den with you. 

SARA: Well, your journey so closely matches the journey of so many of the Mama Dragons in our community, and kind of how the Mama Dragons community formed. So, we're excited to kind of have this shared experience together. When your journey started in 2017, when your son Connor came out, you have shared openly about how blindsided you and your husband were, and how bumpy and challenging those early months were for all of you. Can you take us back to that time? What do you remember most about that time as a parent? 

HEATHER: There are several things that I remember really, really well. First of all, yes, blindsided is the best way that I can describe it, although now I kind of giggle and look back and think, “Hmm, there were some things I missed.” Right? Which I'm sure you can totally identify with, right?

But I remember so very clearly the night that he came out to us. He had run away. My husband and I were away on a couples retreat, which, for all parents out there is like precious time, especially when your kids are younger, that you actually have that time together. And so we were about 2,000 miles away from home. And he disappeared. And I was so, just terrified is the best word that I can come up with. And when I finally was able to get him on the phone, he was crying. And I was just so relieved to hear his voice. And he was like, “Mom, I've got to tell you something.” And I was like, “Of course, what's going on? What happened?” He's like, “I'm gay.” And I was like, “Well, thank God, because I thought you were dead!” Like, I literally, and I think every parent can identify with the relief that he was just alive. I was like, everything else is doable and figure-out-able. Right? “Okay, awesome. We will be home. Let me walk you home. Stay on the phone with me as you get home.” And so that was kind of that first big moment. The second big moment that I had was, I come from a pretty conservative evangelical background growing up, and so my second thought was, “There's no way this kid is going to hell. And I'm gonna figure that out.” And so, there were, like, these kind of simultaneous things that happened, like, back-to-back-to-back that in that first ten minutes of him coming out to us. As we started then on our journey, and what happened for him was that he'd been holding all of these things in so tightly and guarding all of this information so carefully because he was scared. And once he knew that he could just let it all out and tell us all these things, you would think that maybe everything would be just fine. I know for a lot of kids it is; for him, the wheels just fell off the bus. And, I mean, we had everything from severe substance use issues to – we didn't know how to support him. We didn't know how to find information that he needed. He was almost 17 years old and so he was really curious. I didn't know how to guide him in the things he was curious about. And I didn't know who to connect him with so he could find those things out in a safe way. So subsequently, he did what most kids do, right? He got online. Well, it's, like, the worst thing that a kid could do, which we, of course, learned the hard way. So, there are a lot of really tough lessons right in those first six months, where looking back and thinking about it, I think we were on our heels the whole time, just scrambling to find the information, figure out who we could talk to. Who is it safe to talk to? Who is it safe to share this information with? Who does he want to share this information with? So there was a lot. And as we, kind of fast forward a year from that place, and really felt that he was in a stable place, was really when I was able to say, “Okay. This was hard, and there are thousands of other parents out there going through this, feeling the exact same way. What can I do to help? How can I make this a little bit easier for even one person?” So, that's kind of how this all began. 

SARA: Thank you, and I appreciate hearing a little bit of your faith background. That resonates really deeply with our Mama Dragons community. A good majority of them – not me – come out of conservative religion and are looking for ways to support their child that they love, that they know in their heart is good, and feeling a little bit abandoned by their faith tradition, that has told them otherwise, or has nothing for them. Can you talk a little bit about what that journey was like for you? That beautiful statement of, like, “I knew my son wasn't going to hell, and I was going to figure this out,” is really powerful. 

HEATHER: Isn't it interesting how those things happen where you're just guided. And you're not really quite sure how you get there, but you just get there. And that was certainly one of those moments where I have never wavered from that position. I have only strengthened that by learning, by figuring out, by asking questions. And honestly, it has taken me to a place that is a little more unconventional in that I'm still very much on my faith journey and my spiritual journey and trying to figure out what that looks like, and what I want it to look like. And so the whole time I've remained that I have this belief in God. And it is very strong, it always has been, but all of the pieces around that – and please take this in the very best way – but the dogma surrounding it, what I was brought up with, I've had to shed. And I've had to have really, really strong conversations with people, my parents, people that I grew up with, saying that, “Just because I don't believe that anymore, does not mean that I don't have faith. And just because I don't believe that my child is going to hell does not make me wrong, or lost, or a soul that needs to be saved.” So, it has been an incredible journey. But it's a journey that just keeps continuing, right? I feel like I can share my experiences, and I can empathize with others. But, you know, it's something that we're never quite finished, right, until we are. 

SARA: That's really beautiful and really, really encouraging. I love the language you use, and how you have navigated those difficult conversations. Another real challenge that you share very openly about is that part of Connor's story, your story as a parent, is that in his struggle to discover himself in his coming out, his depression and anxiety skyrocketed and led to also some self-harm and suicidality. And I bring this up because this is sadly all too common a story for many LGBTQ kids, and their parents. Can you talk about that tender time and how it felt, and what helped you as a parent get through it? 

HEATHER: Oh, sure. It's funny, I was just talking about this with somebody the other day. It was this time of year, eight years ago, so it was right after he came out. We noticed it about 3-4 months into the journey, where he was just really struggling. And the struggle kept getting more and more difficult. And I could tell in the way that he was relating, not only to us as his family, but to his friends, to his schoolwork. He is an “oldest kid,” so he has a lot of “oldest kid” traits. And so, very much the overachiever, very bright. And he just stopped caring about everything. And from that to the way he began to dress. And certainly there were a lot of pieces of it where I was like, I want to give him the space to be able to express and figure out what feels good to him, right, like, what feels authentic to who he is? But certainly by the time we got to about this time of year, he had an accident that, at the time I obviously thought was an accident, and then realized later was not, and it was something that was very much a self-inflicted accident. And it was to get him out of playing volleyball. And he was on a travel volleyball team. And he did not want to be on that team anymore. He felt very uncomfortable in that environment. But he didn't know how to tell me that. So he instead crushed his hand, which was just horrific. And then that turned into cutting. And that turned into substance. And it was a very fast – like, it was a steep downhill. It was not a slow-rolling thing. It was like one week to the next week to the next week, like, just kind of upping the intensity of what was going on. And our pediatrician actually put us in touch with an educational consultant, which at the time we'd never heard of anything like this before. And she said, “Oh, well, I think it sounds like Connor needs to go on a wilderness program.” Now. I will tell you, even at the time, I was like, “Yeah, Connor's not really like your outdoor kid. That just seems like that could make everything worse.” But here we are, beginning to be in greater and greater crises. Right? And we are looking to those who we consider to be professionals around us to guide us. So she's put us in touch with this woman who tells us first, which you will all appreciate, we met with this woman, and she says to my husband and me, “Now, you need to understand that most people that go through crises like these with their children often get divorced, so be prepared for that.” And I was like, “I'm sorry, what?” We were just like, “Well, okay. Thanks.” And then she says, “And your relationship with Connor will never be the same.” Now, I should have taken that information right then and run out the door and never looked back. However, we were both like, well, “We don't believe that, and we're certainly not going to get divorced if nothing else, just to prove her wrong,” but we also were just like, “What do we do? This kid is actively self-harming. He is leaving school. He is upping the ante. There are substances, multiple substances involved. And he's sneaking out.” So, at that point, we had hit this, where he was crawling out his window at night. And I think everybody listening. will appreciate how naive we were, because we literally were like, “We'll put alarms on the windows. We'll put up cameras.” We literally covered our house in cameras and locks, and every possible thing you can do. Which, none of that works. I am just here to tell everyone that does not work. So when I say the wheels fell off the bus, really the wheels were falling off the bus, and I had three younger kids as well. I mean, for everyone, this was such an incredibly intense time. So ultimately what happened was this woman, we talked back and forth enough with this ed consultant woman – and she spoke with Connor – that we decided on he needed some intensive mental health intervention. There were some pieces that came into the picture of what he was doing when he was sneaking out at night that became acutely dangerous. And it got to the point where he was being stalked. And so we needed to remove him. Like, it couldn't just be, like an intervention here, where we live, we had to physically remove him from this. So when we sat down with him and we were like, “Hey, listen. We know what's going on, we're very concerned, we love you so much. We just want to support you. We are trying to learn as fast as we can, and all of these pieces. But clearly, you are struggling with things that are way beyond what we can do. We need some intensive, professional help.” And it was that night that he did attempt his life. And he did not want that, which, of course, now I can look back and say, “Thank God, he was not successful.” And we live in Chicago, north of Chicago, and we ended up taking him to a place in California. So he was far away. Right, like that’s the worst thing in the world that you could do to a 17-year-old – in their mind, that’s the worst thing you could do. We did it though and he was there for three months. And that was the very best thing we possibly could have done, even though it was ridiculously hard. And my younger two kids, who were 11 and 9 at the time still are like – we didn't tell them until, literally, we were going to the airport with Connor, and we were like, “Connor needs to go away for a little bit.” And they were like, “What?” I mean, still to this day, they were like, “How could you not tell us that?” And we were like, “We didn't know how to talk about this with an 11-year-old and a 9-year-old”. We could barely talk about it with each other. So, I know that was a lot of information, a lot of words to explain that whole situation, but it was complicated, as these things typically are. 

SARA: Yeah, well, I appreciate it. That is a story that I hear a lot. And so I think it's really helpful for people to hear that they are not alone in having some of those similar kinds of experiences. And as I'm listening to you. I'm thinking all of this is unfolding simultaneous to you, your husband, and your family trying to catch up, to learn, and you talk a lot about unlearning as a parent, and that society doesn't prepare parents for this. And so I wonder if you'll talk a little bit about that. What did you have to learn and unlearn? How did you figure out how to talk to the younger kids about it? What were those challenges that you and your spouse were facing internally in trying to catch up, as you said, with Connor and what was happening? 

HEATHER: Right, oh my gosh. Well, I think there were several different categories of really unlearning and then learning. And it was a lot of simultaneous, too. Right? But there was the whole, all being gay, the LGBTQ community, which we knew nothing about. Mental health, which I had literally just kind of started my own journey with understanding my own mental health about two years before. Thank goodness. I mean, because, you know, we're of the age that that wasn't a thing, right? When we were young. And so, being able to embrace that and begin learning for myself was a huge help for me to have resources and people to ask things of, who can then direct me and say, “Okay, well, here's a good person to talk to.” Or, “Here's a great website,” or, “Here's a good book,” or whatever. So that was incredibly helpful when it came to mental health specifics. When it came to religion and to our spiritual lives and our belief systems, I think it honestly felt, at the time, that they just kind of – everything just blew up. And in fact, I've said that a couple of times, like, the movie reel, it's the whole idea of the movie reel that we create of our lives, our kids' lives. It blows up. And so we had to recreate that, and figure out what was ours, what was right for us. So first, for me, as a person, for my husband and I as a couple, for all of us as a family. And then really learning how to guide our kids in figuring this out for themselves. And that was huge work to do and to just give the space for it to be so messy, which it was for a very long time, and still is from time to time.  

SARA: Yeah, how did you tell the younger siblings, and how did they respond? How did those conversations unfold? 

HEATHER: So, Connor was really clear about who he wanted to tell and when. And that was one thing that we – of all the things that we really botched at the beginning, that was one thing that we did okay, which was from the beginning, we were like, “Hey, who do you want to talk to? Who do you not want to talk to?” His next sibling down, Isabelle, is just 2 years younger than him, and so he told her pretty quickly, and he confided in her actually a lot more than he should have. And she ended up knowing a lot more information than a 13, 14-year-old should know. And so that was that. He wanted to wait to tell the younger two, though, who we, you know, forever and ever called the Littles. For whatever reason, they got to be the Littles. And so he… I said he was away for three months in California. We then had him finish off his junior year at a therapeutic boarding school in North Carolina. So when he was in North Carolina, we took the whole family to visit him, and he was allowed to have actual visitors outside of his parents. And he wanted to tell the Littles then, and so it was kind of a big production as far as he felt. We went to this place, this little teahouse that he really loved there, and he told them, and I love this story so much because it is one of those moments that is kind of burned in my brain, because it was more than a year after he had come out to us. So it had been that whole time where he was like, “Please don't tell them, like, If you can just tell them that I'm struggling with mental health stuff, or however you want to word that, that's fine, but I want to tell them I'm gay.” And so we were sitting there in this tea house, all of us, and he's nervous and he says, “You know, I want to tell you guys something about who I am. I like boys instead of girls, and I want to date boys instead of girls.” And they were both really kind of just sat there, like, very thoughtful. And Rowan, my youngest, said, “Well, I think that you must have to be very brave to say that. 

SARA: Wow. 

HEATHER: And I was literally like, tears. Like, I was like, “Well, my work is done here.” And the look on Connor's face when he said that, it was just one of those moments that you just want to bottle up and keep with you forever. But it was such a cool thing. And then it had been up to that point and continued to be kind of a trial and error of how do we share things in an age-appropriate way with them because so many of the things that Connor had gone through up to that point had been so scary and such really more than an 11 and a 9-year-old need to know. It was challenging to figure out what to tell them. 

SARA: More about the mental health challenges. 

HEATHER: Correct. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, a thousand percent, yes. Yes. 

SARA: It is such a beautiful response from your son, too. And it just reminds us that, like, kids get this in a way that sometimes grown-ups just don't. 

HEATHER: No! That is absolutely correct. And sometimes we make such a big deal about something that is just not. Right? 

SARA: Yeah, our kids can show us the way that it's like, “Wow, that's brave. That's cool. Okay. What's next?” 

HEATHER: “All right, next. What's for dinner,” right? 

SARA: You mentioned your own therapeutic journey that had started and was really helpful to you in this process a few years before all of this blew up, and you talk openly about the value of therapy. And I'm thinking in particular about how finding the right therapist really helped Connor. And you talk about how he really responded to – there are gay men who were therapists, and that really worked for him. And you share about how your own therapist saved your life. 

HEATHER: Yes. 

SARA: And you had a family therapist. So can you share a little bit about why therapy is such an important and valuable tool? 

HEATHER: Yes, I think it boils down to, it is so incredibly helpful to have somebody who is objective and who is your person who is there only to listen to you. Their whole job is to hear you. And there's something really amazing about that. I still see the same therapist that I started, and we've been together 10 years now, which is kind of extraordinary. And Connor is still with the same person that he started seeing when he was in college. And he would say the same thing, that having a gay man as a therapist has been incredibly helpful, because, in the same way that having a straight woman as my therapist, there are certain things that just people of your own gender and orientation get, right? And that you don't have to over-explain, because they just know. And so, I just think there is such value in being able to have a place where you can go to say all these things, to be really messy, where you will not be judged, where you can get it all out. And if you're like me, you verbally process. And oftentimes, I come up with my solution, or I just get it all out, and I feel better, or whatever it is. And, I encourage everybody to do that. And everybody in my family does. My girls on and off have. Actually, my daughter, who is a sophomore at Savannah College of Art and Design just called me the other day. We'd been looking while she was home, and she's like, “Okay, I just interviewed two people.” And I think that's to your point, also, is finding the right therapist is like dating. And, um, I got really lucky in finding my first date. Connor, oh my gosh, the number of people that we went through. And by we, I mean he. But I was part of the process for a great deal of that time. In fact, the therapist he has now, I did call and beg to see him, because when I read his bio, I was like, “Oh my gosh, you are literally perfect.” And he wasn't taking new people, and I called him, and I was like, “Listen, I need for you to see my kid.” And they've been together for five years, so it's all good. 

SARA: I mean, that is a really important story, and you do share a lot about that balance of finding the right person, listening to your intuition, and some of the stories that you all had of professionals along the way – maybe not all of them therapists per se – but feeling a little misguided, on occasion, telling you things that didn't ring true for you. 

HEATHER: Yes, and one of my big takeaways from that was certainly listening to my intuition, because my intuition at the time was like, “Maybe not. This is not a good idea.” And that is ultimately what led us to getting Connor the help, the intensive acute help that he needed, because my intuition for weeks had been telling me like, “There is stuff going on. You need to look at his phone.” And I was so afraid to violate that privacy. And, but I did it, and I remember sitting actually with my therapist and being like, ”I know this is what I need to do, and I just don't know that I can do it.” And she was like, “You’ve got to get on that phone, Heather, and if your gut, if your intuition, if your whole body is telling you that you need to know this. You need to know.” And I did. I mean, what I found out, what I saw, will forever be burned into my brain. But it also saved his life. So… worth it. Yeah, so because of those very dramatic examples, it has taught me to listen, and to really learn how to lean into even the quiet whisperings of my intuition. 

SARA: Yeah, and wow, thank you for sharing that about the phone, because I feel pretty confident that every parent has wrestled with that in this day and age, in some way, shape, or form. And where's the line, and when do I cross it, and why, and how. And can you share more about that because I think it's just really important in this moment, and also talk a little bit about what that was like as you did that? And then how did that go with Connor, and how did you have to navigate the relationship in light of that? 

HEATHER: Well, it came up because he had snuck out for the third time, and that was our consequence for sneaking out. “We're taking your phone. This time, you are without a phone,” and because we were in that place of trying to figure out how do we get to the bottom of what's going on, how do we stop this behavior. And, I was holding on to it. I was taking it wherever I went, and it was just sitting there. And he is still a minor so there was that piece. We pay for his phone. I mean, so talking about the very practical pieces of this and it's a privilege to have a phone. And so, that was really the way that we approached it as a mom and dad, as a couple. But it truly was in that moment, realizing, “I have to do this. I have to see what's on here. This is going to tell me what is happening, so I can make an informed decision how to help this kid, what supports he needs.” And so it wasn't at all about punishing him, or major consequences, or busting him. It was more like, there's some big stuff going on here, and I don't know exactly what it is, but I need to understand what it is, because only then can I help him. But I did sit on my bathroom floor. I locked myself in my bathroom. And I guessed his password on the first try, which I still am like, how on earth did I do that? Again. Right? Just know that when you need to know things, you will be guided there. So I sat on my bathroom floor, and I cried, just going through all the things that were on there, and all the things that I found. And I then pulled myself together and I walked downstairs, my husband was downstairs watching TV. And I was like, “Okay, we have a problem. And it's big, and I'm not going to show you anything that I just saw.” And my husband has never, ever seen any of the things that I saw. I screenshotted a lot of numbers and things like that that I wanted to keep to have because we needed them. But I did shield him from that piece. I will say that is the one thing that I did not share completely with him. But I'm so glad that I did, and I know that it is such an individual decision to make, because people that I've told even at the time, you know, people were like, “Oh my gosh, you got on his phone?” I'm like, “Yeah. It led us to this place where we did sit down with Connor. 

SARA: Yeah, I'm curious, how did he respond? 

HEATHER: So, it was not good. We did it with his therapist he was seeing at the time. So, we all met, all four of us together. I called her, and I said, ”Hey, this is what we've got going on.” I knew that they were having a session, and that was when the decision was made that he needed to go away, that we needed to – there were some big, scary things going on, and here are the options that we have found. And he had already met with this other person, and so the pieces did kind of fall into place, but it did, like I said, it did what it was that night that he did attempt. And he was so distraught, understandably. He was so horrified that his mother had been on his phone, which, I mean, of course he was. And I really tried very hard to not talk about those details because I knew he would be embarrassed. Oh my gosh. Like who wouldn't be? And that wasn't my intent of looking at it. It was, I just need to know the bigger picture here. So, there were a lot of pieces that kind of went into how he got to that place that night. And thankfully, again, he was not successful. 

SARA: Thanks, thanks for sharing that. I think that's such a difficult and important piece of this puzzle in this day and age, and conversation that all of us parents struggle with how to interact with that phone and our kids. 

HEATHER: I mean, seriously, the phone, that's a whole other conversation, probably. 

SARA: In your work in Chrysalis Mama, in your consulting and coaching, you talk a lot about offering and creating a shame-free space for parents. What does that mean to you? 

HEATHER: I think it's really, really important because this is a subject that most parents, when they are faced with it, have their own feelings around it. Even when they are completely affirming. And, of course, we love our kids and there are things that we feel. There are questions that we have. And so I've always wanted to have this space where parents, allies, friends, siblings can come and ask these questions that they may feel, whether it's embarrassed about, they may feel shame around, they may feel not be appropriate to ask, right? That “Oh, is this going to be hurtful to my child.” I believe that you have to walk through that stuff. You have to say it. You have to feel it to walk through it. You can't just stuff it down or pretend it doesn't exist. And you're not a bad person for it existing. A lot of this is the programming, it's the unlearning that we have to do. So, I think that the shame-free and the unlearning kind of go hand in hand. 

SARA: If you could say one thing to a parent who's just found out their child is queer, what would it be? 

HEATHER: Just love them. But the second thing that came up right away after that was, believe who they are telling you they are. Because that has come up a lot recently and I feel like that is equally as important. 

SARA: That's great. Yes, both of those. Really simple. Complicated and simple all at the same time for people. 

HEATHER: Yes. 

SARA: What about what advice you might have for parents who feel that tear, or that tension between their deep, deep love for their child, but the pressures of their family, their community, their faith, their culture that might be telling them something is wrong or not good, and that fracture. How do you talk to parents about that? 

HEATHER: What I've come to understand or believe about that feeling, or that kind of realm of feelings, is that feeling uncomfortable is actually a good thing because it means that you are recognizing, perhaps, the direction you are evolving in or growing in. And how that differs from perhaps the way you were raised, or the community that you've been in for a while. And it doesn't mean that you can't be part of that, it just means that you're kind of expanding your capacity to hold both. 

SARA: That's great. That is really hard to do, but such a beautiful invitation that is such a beautiful practice. And I know things I've read, you know, Connor and your kids and everybody's really doing well and thriving right now. And I do want to kind of go back to the blow-up time because one question I had was, in those moments of deep struggle and pain and conflict. Did you have a particular practice or ritual that you turned to that helped you kind of stay grounded? 

HEATHER: Yes, I did. I really took to – because I was really, really struggling at that point in time with how I felt about religion specifically, I took to meditating. And just kind of imagining, sitting in that space of stillness and quiet, but having it be just a space of stillness and quiet. Instead of speaking to specifically God, or specifically Jesus, or having a conversation, so to speak. But still allowing myself to be. And the other thing I did, I did both of these things every single day, which was incredibly helpful for me. I journaled every day. And even if it was just… somebody had given me a gratitude journal at the time, and so even if it was just, like, “I am grateful for this, period.” Like, one thing that I could find, I felt like, okay, I'm accomplished, I've done this, right? But it was extremely helpful for me to just take that breath. Which is, honestly, that's why the original name for my podcast was Just Breathe, and I have since changed the name of it. I've rebranded because that was such a reminder, every day I had to remind myself to just breathe, to sit, be still, write what you're thinking and feeling, and move forward.

SARA: And those practices really are so grounding, even if they, on the surface feels superficial or silly. I can remember moments where it took everything I had to just write, “I am grateful for the strawberries I had for breakfast.” Like desperately reaching for something. 

HEATHER: Oh, totally! Yes, yes. I mean, yes, there would be times that I would sit outside in my backyard, and I'd, like, be looking around. I'd be like, “Well I am grateful that the sky is blue.” So not to diminish that in any way, but I was just yeah, same thing, just grasping for there is goodness, I just have to find it. Yeah. 

SARA: And to still push yourself to name even the smallest, simplest things. 

HEATHER: Yes. 

SARA: Like to stay there for a while with a list, that is also a really helpful grounding. It is a grounding practice, 

HEATHER: It's a grounding practice. Yes. For sure. 

SARA: You also talk a lot about parenting with courage and compassion. And I'm curious, what does that look like in everyday life? 

HEATHER: Oh my goodness. It can look like anything from taking an extra moment to just pause and be – like, let's say your teenager comes in – and I'll just do this by example instead of being esoteric about it -- your teenager comes in, and they are talking a mile a minute, and we all have probably one of those, right? We have the ones who don't say a thing, and we have the ones who just say a lot. And in your mind you could be thinking, “I have so much to do. I need to make dinner. I've got to finish my work.” Whatever it is, but to take that 10 minutes, whatever it is, and just be really present with that kid. And let them say all the things. And be curious instead of like, “Okay, great, I love you, on to the next thing.” One open-ended question of curiosity, or comment that shows them that you are right there with them is so huge. And that is, again, it is hard to do. None of the things that I'm saying, do I say lightly. I say knowing that it is very difficult, and I still work very hard to do it myself. But I also know the magic of when we do that. Right? That connection, that what it opens up, communication-wise, relationship-wise, pretty spectacular. 

SARA: Yeah, thank you for that. If you could give your younger parenting self one piece of advice, what would it be? 

HEATHER: Oh my goodness, without swearing. 

SARA: Without swearing. 

HEATHER: Oh my goodness, I would tell her to give herself some grace and not be so hard on herself. And I think I would tell her to trust, not just her intuition earlier, sooner, more deeply. But to really lean into who she knows she is, not what others have always told her. 

SARA: Wow. That's some really helpful advice for all of us. Really, really powerful. Thank you. This time together has just flown by, but what a profound conversation. And your deep, deep sharing and willingness to share so deeply about your own journey and your kids, has been really special. Thank you. We have two final questions that we often like to ask most of our guests at the end of every episode. And the first question has to do with the Mama Dragons name, which was born out of this sense of fierceness and fierce protection for our kids, fierce like a dragon. So we like to ask our guests, besides what we've spent an hour talking about, what is it you are fierce about? 

HEATHER: Well, clearly. My kids. Clearly my family. I would say I am fierce about seeing everyone as human. So not just LGBTQ rights, of course human rights. But there has been an uptick and dehumanizing as a strategy. And the more I learn, and the more that I do this work, that is something that I feel all the way into my soul is, it is so important to see every person as deeply human. No matter where we fall. 

SARA: Yes, great, thank you. And the final question I have for you is, what is bringing you joy right now, recognizing that, particularly in these times, we need to cultivate as much joy as possible? 

HEATHER: Okay, here's going be my lightest and fluffiest answer of the day, and that is University of Michigan football. I am a huge college football fan. My daughter just graduated from there last year, but I've been a Michigan fan my entire life, and it does bring me extraordinary joy.

SARA: Perfect answer. I love it. I love the fluffy answers. Those are great. Go Big Blue! Heather, thank you. Thank you so much for your work and your time, and for sharing yourself with our community. It's been a beautiful conversation. 

HEATHER: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I really, really enjoyed our conversation today. 

SARA: Thank you so much for joining us here In the Den. Did you know that Mama Dragons offers an eLearning program called Parachute? This is an interactive learning platform where you can learn more about how to affirm, support, and celebrate the LGBTQ+ people in your life. Learn more at mamadragons.org/parachute, or find the link in the episode show notes under links. 

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