A Bible Mistranslation That Shifted Culture

So often we hear arguments against homosexuality from conservative Christians who claim biblical authority. But what if that authority is built on a mistranslation? What if the word homosexual was never meant to be in the Bible? That question is at the heart of today’s conversation. Sara and filmmaker Rocky Roggio are diving into the groundbreaking documentary 1946: The Mistranslation That Shifted Culture. This film uncovers how a single mistranslation in the Revised Standard Version of the Bible has shaped decades of belief, policy, and pain for LGBTQ+ people and their families. Rocky is a strong voice, among the growing chorus of LGBTQIA+ Christians who want to cure the world of this damaging narrative. 

Special Guest: Rocky Roggio

Rocky Roggio is a multi award winning independent filmmaker and production designer. Rocky is also a member of the LGBTQIA+ community, and moved out of her home after coming out to her conservative, religious parents. Rocky’s father, Sal Roggio, is a non-affirming pastor and preaches that the LGBTQIA+ lifestyle is sinful.  Rocky lives in Los Angeles, CA, and has been a member of three IATSE unions nationwide. She has a Bachelor’s degree in Communications with a focus in Radio, Television, and Film. Her background includes large budget physical production on award winning shows and films such as House of Cards, Parks and Recreation, With Bob and David, Whip It, and Red Dawn.  In 2016, Rocky associate produced and production designed GOOK, a feature film that premiered at Sundance in 2017.  In 2018, when she heard about the 1946 mistranslation in the Bible, Roggio immediately quit all her other endeavors and has focused all her time, money, and resources on producing and creating the 1946 documentary. 1946 is Roggio’s directorial debut.

Links from the Show: 

• Learn more about 1946, the film, here: https://www.1946themovie.com/promotional-material 
• Meet the creative team behind 1946: https://www.1946themovie.com/creators 
• 1946 Resource List: https://www.1946themovie.com/workbook-resources 
• Join Mama Dragons today: www.mamadragons.org 

In the Den is made possible by generous donors like you. Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today at www.mamadragons.org.  

Transcript

SARA: Hi everyone. Welcome to In the Den with Mama Dragons. A podcast and community to support, educate, and empower parents on the journey of raising happy and healthy LGBTQ+ humans. I’m your host, Sara LaWall. I’m a Mama Dragon myself and an advocate for our queer community. And I’m so glad to be part of this wild and wonderful parenting journey with all of you. Thanks for joining us. We’re so glad you’re here.

Last time, In the Den we talked with Kathy Baldock, researcher, author, and bridge builder about a single mistranslation in the 1946 Revised Standard Version of the Bible that inserted the word ‘homosexual’ for the first time in English scripture. And that translation choice, as we all have experienced, it turns out had decades of consequences for faith, for family, for policy. Today we continue the conversation. But this time we’re stepping behind the camera. Joining us is Sharon “Rocky” Roggio, a queer filmmaker and the director of the groundbreaking documentary 1946: The Mistranslation that Shifted Culture. Rocky is the filmmaker who took Kathy Baldock and Ed Oxford’s research and the archival documents and the human stories of faith and family and transformed them into a beautiful film that is both compelling and eye-opening and worthy of conversation. A great conversation starter for our communities. Rocky is no stranger to the implications of a life affected by the predominant modern interpretations of the Bible. Growing up lesbian in a Christian household with a pastor for a father – who is featured in the film – she experienced the trauma of anti-gay biblical teachings and that is what prepared her for this expansive undertaking. She is a strong voice among the chorus of LGBTQ+ Christians who want to cure the world of this damaging narrative. Rocky, welcome to In the Den. It is so good to have you with us. 

ROCKY: Thank you, that was an awesome opening. I'm so glad to be here connecting with y'all. 

SARA: I am so glad to be having this conversation. I have to tell you, when I watched this film with a bunch of church people, it knocked me off my chair. And I was just stunned, both by the storytelling, but also by the reality that I didn't know any of this. So, to set the stage for our conversation, and for listeners who haven't yet seen the film – but we'll make sure to give them a link so they all know how they can go watch it – can you just give us a brief description of the film and what happened in 1946 with the mistranslation of the word ‘homosexual’ in the Bible? 

ROCKY: Sure, I'll try not to give any spoiler alerts. But spoiler alert, the word homosexual does not belong in the Bible. And, you know, I never really thought of that growing up, growing up as you've mentioned, you know, a pastor's daughter, in a Christian household, but even just in middle America, and even whether you're an atheist or Jewish, or whatever religious ideology you practice in our culture, we would hear what homosexuals are, which are these bad things, and we can get into that a little bit later. And growing up in the 80s, especially with the rise of things we saw in the movies it's just like, “Ahhhh!” And then identifying with being gay. So all my life, I had this kind of questioning. But being a filmmaker in Los Angeles, and years later, learning then that the word homosexual doesn't belong in the Bible with more context as an adult and different things, this was an opportunity to take a journalistic, relational, academic approach to a real mistranslation that impacts real lives. And so, as a filmmaker this was kind of, for me, this was documentary gold. We have Kathy and Ed, who are fantastic researchers who went to the archives at Yale University and dug up never-before-seen documents that show why the word homosexual doesn't belong in the Bible. And whether you're conservative or progressive in this religious space or not, scholars will agree the word homosexual doesn't belong in there. So if we can just start from there, what a cool thing. This isn't my feelings, my emotions, my opinion as a lesbian Christian. This is something tangible that we can really look at. And so it was really exciting for me to have an opportunity to make this movie. And then my motivation for making it to have a dialogue to continue conversation with my non-affirming parents. And then hopefully that's a tool for other people who are struggling with similar things. 

SARA: Yeah, for our listeners, the film follows these researchers, one of them, Kathy Baldock, who really uncovers all of the documents behind this mistranslation. And I just want to let folks know we're going to have Kathy on the show as well, so we'll get to do a really deep dive into some of that research. And it's really extraordinary. But, Rocky, you also mentioned that a major feature of the film is your own story, your experience, and your relationship with your parents, with your dad as a pastor. And that was really moving, to watch that alongside your experience of uncovering this mistranslation research. And so I want to start a little bit with, hear more about your story. Can you share with us a bit about your background growing up, coming out, and what that was like for you? 

ROCKY: So, I always say my story isn't unique. It's unique to me, but it's not necessarily unique in the sense of if you grow up gay in a conservative household, those things just don't kind of mix very well. And so, as we learned in the movie, I was found out, and I didn't have an opportunity to come out. And that was pretty traumatic. And my parents and I, and my father and I especially, have been going on this journey for quite a long time. And I wasn't going to put myself in the movie. When my dad showed up, he was too good of a character not to then go with this narrative, my dad, in the movie. Grateful that he was able to be in this movie with me and go on this journey with me. So at the end of the credits, you'll see a bunch of names of people we were going to interview. But my dad afforded us an opportunity to really get someone with a different perspective. The goal of this kind of storyline, following a character, of how it impacts our real lives. There was actually Sarah Cunningham and her son Parker from Free Mom Hugs, and looking at the impact of that. We interviewed so many different people. But Dad gave us that Christian perspective. And we treated him like every other expert in the film, which I think is fantastic, which then gives us a non-threatening approach, something where people can really see themselves, and hopefully any of a lot of the different storylines going in there. But then that wrestle that I think a lot of us go through, that pull and push kind of magnet thing, and my dad and I have that. Plus, I knew that we've been dialoguing about it for so long, I knew almost exactly what he was going to say with some of the different questionings that we put in there, and he still believes those things. But at the bottom line, the message is, the takeaway is, we love each other, and how are we doing relationships? And so that also gave us an opportunity to show how we do relationship as people who disagree, Kathy shows how she does relationship and how she learned to just do relationship with a friend that led her to go down her path and things like that. **So that was a really important through-line for us in the film. But really quickly, one thing, if you do see the film, and you're like, how does she do that? The only reason why it works for me and my family, they're not trying to make me feel bad or hurt my feelings, or beat me up emotionally, spiritually, psychologically, and things like that. They love me, they really do. They just disagree with me. But if your loved ones are hurting you in any way, it is okay to walk away. You can say, “I forgive you” in any way that looks for you, but just a reminder out there, find your chosen family that actually love and support you, and if they're doing anything less than that, it's okay to walk away. 

SARA: Thank you. I appreciate that reminder, because I will say, as a viewer. You know, your dad journeys with you, with the filmmakers, through this process, going to some of the conferences, hearing the lectures from Kathy, and some of the other experts. And we imagine that he is on this journey of transformation. And at the end of the film, he remains convicted that homosexuality is a sin. And to hear that, to be a viewer, and to hear that, and to watch that journey unfold with you, it feels very painful for the viewer. So, yes, many people, I'm sure, ask that question. How does, how did that feel for you, that whole trajectory of the experience, and being with your dad as he is experiencing these things? 

ROCKY: Well, it was a lot of different emotions, having to relive some of the most painful moments in your life is quite challenging. I knew that I would be up for the task. My father and I are both pretty strong characters, strong personalities, and we're actually – if you do watch the credits – one of the little nuggets at the end, we're born on the same day. I was born on my Dad's birthday. So I'm either his, I joke at the end his biggest gift, or his worst nightmare, you know? And it was painful. And it was painful for him as well. But I also learned some things. It was worth the experience to make a wonderful film. I'm really proud of the work that we did and the things that came out, and the editing and all of the elements that came in to tell the story that just flows, I think, beautifully. And one of the things I learned during this process, which is really important, I think, for parents to hear, and also LGBTQ people, is understanding that parents go through a mourning process, too, and that's okay, and to allow them to mourn on their time. And to even put it in that terms, it's like, “Well, you know, I'm still here. What do you mean you're mourning?” But they're mourning the loss of the dreams and goals and aspirations that maybe they had been summoning up for so long. And they need to let that go in their own time. And so my parents went through Christian counseling on what do they do. And it took a long time to process different things. And I think that helped me to understand a little bit more, but then also, again, to be able to convey to people that sometimes we need to meet people where they are, at their pace. Sometimes we need to pace with them. Sometimes we might need to speed up the pace a little bit, and we can be the judgment of that. But just giving each other grace as we go through the different perspectives of such a complicated issue as this is. 

SARA: I'm curious how did you first discover this story? 

ROCKY: Yeah, so, everything that's in the movie is true, where it's like I was dating a girl in Los Angeles who told me she was Christian, and she wanted to go to church. And I was like, and I hadn't been to church in 30 years, or 20 years, I don't know, now I'm really aging myself. Well we'll say 20, just for story's sake. But so I go to this church, and I really enjoyed the sermon. I enjoyed being there, and it was a nice community. And I was reminded of why people do ‘Church’. But then you start to peel back the layers, and you start to say, “Oh, well, maybe I'm not really equal in this space.” And I ended up asking questions that led me to have other conversations with people in that space that were asking questions, that led me to a video that the pastor had done a year prior on homosexuality and all the clobber verses are in there which led me – I mean, I went down a real rabbit hole, like, I got the bylaws of this church signed by the senior pastor that says they're not to be shared with anyone outside of leadership. But, yes, I did get a hold of those bylaws. I won't say how. And, which that in itself was just like, “Mmm, that's weird. And what are you keeping secret?” And everything in there was everything you would imagine from an Evangelical church where the clobber verses are in there, verses against women, reproductive rights, and just different things that are just like, “Wow, this is even more than I thought.” And so that kind of bait-and-switch thing was really upsetting. I remember reading those bylaws in a parking lot of a grocery store, just sobbing because you feel like you went through a breakup. And I said that in the film it's just like you start building relationships with these people. And I started to really, I wasn't angry, because I'd gone through my angry period. But it was just like, I have to do something about this. It was very frustrating, as you can imagine. And, I wanted to use my voice as a filmmaker, but that kind of just snowballed into after, like, a year of having more conversations, and then, “Oh, I'm gonna make a film on affirming theology,” and led me down a rabbit hole of learning on who Kathy Baldock is, who's going to be on your program soon, And I went and binge-watched Kathy Baldock for six hours on YouTube. And then, as it says in the film, I took a class on homosexuality in the Bible. And in that class is when I learned about the words malakoi and arsenokoitai. And then I learned Kathy was coming into town at the United Methodist Church at Hollywood and Vine, this really iconic church in Hollywood. It's just beautiful, and I'm going to get permission to film there, just kind of all happened. But meanwhile, all of the YouTube videos at that time, none of the 1946 research had been publicly shared. So, it had only been shared in conferences prior – like two different conferences prior – to the one that I filmed in Los Angeles. And that was the same day my parents were coming in to visit me. And they never come in to visit me. So everything just kind of happened, and that's when I was like, “Hey, Mom and Dad, do you remember when you went to you made me go to Love Won Out, you know that James Dobson, Focus on the Family thing? Yeah, well, we did that together. Would you mind coming to this with me together? And I'm gonna film it.” And that's exactly what I did. Now, fast forward, spoiler alert for anyone who did see the film, you do see that earlier, younger Sharon Rocky – Sharon is my real name, so my parents would be like, Sharon did this – My dad had a conference at his church, Help for the Homosexual, and that stirred up some news in the area. And I ended up doing a 3-minute public statement to the news pretty much outing my father for having a lesbian daughter. And then they came to his house again, and it was this whole back-and-forth story, which you see in the film as well. And so we have this history, my dad and I, of whose theology is right, kind of thing, you know? And it's like well, not necessarily right or wrong, but we're just going to continue the conversation. Anyway, long story short, Mom and Dad said yes, and they came to the church to hear Kathy Baldock talk about penetration, procreation, and patriarchy for the next six hours. Ed Oxford was there as well and I got to hear his story. His Bibles were there and that's when they mentioned the 1946 mistranslation. And I'm like, this is what the documentary's about. Not only that, but we talked about Kathy and Ed's story, and me and my dad, but how about Reverend David who was, you know, in his 80s when we found him. He's now no longer with us. Another spoiler alert, I know, but what an amazing man he was. And what a gift he gave to us back in 1939, when he wrote the letter, and all of the history of the letter of when it was written and sent, and when it was documented, and then when it was published in 1946, in the Revised Standard Version. It’s all in the movie. So she had just found him a couple months or a month earlier or something. And they spent nine months looking for him. That's in the movie as well, too. 

SARA: And this is the minister in 1939 who wrote a letter to the new translation committee putting together the new Revised Standard Version with concerns about the word homosexual and its misinterpretation and misunderstanding. That's kind of really how it all unfolded. 

ROCKY: Absolutely correct. He was a seminary student who was 21 years old, we found out. And his letter was well above its time. I mean, it had a 3-page appendix. He cited all of his sources. And he said, “I think you got this wrong. The word homosexual does not belong in here, and why.” And, the head of the translation committee wrote him back, which is why we have these documented notes to give us that conclusion that the word homosexual is indeed a mistranslation in the Bible. It's wonderful. And his story is marvelous. And it's one of my favorite parts of the movie. In the end clip of him, Reverend David, the whole wrap-up, is my absolute favorite part of the movie. So definitely I encourage y'all to watch it all the way through. 

SARA: It's such a good story. I have to go back and watch it again, because I'm sure there are things that I missed, just in trying to absorb it all the first time. Was there anything that surprised you in the making of the film and the research and conversations with all the scholars, too, that you include in the film? 

ROCKY: So, there was a couple things. The first thing is we all went in assuming that the translation committee was like, “We're going to get those dirty homosexuals and put the word in there on purpose!” And the data does not support that. The data shows that the man who was the head of the translation committee saw the research and was like, “Oh, I think you have a point here. We're going to bring this up the next time we can vote.” The problem was it was 10 years before they could make any changes. Then, after, once they started to make changes, they couldn't publish for years later, but we found the voting note on the decision to change the word, and they changed it in 1973, when they finally published their updated edition to ‘sexual perverts’, which is still a bad translation, but they continue to do better. The new Revised Standard Version, updated edition, which came out in 2022, is our recommended Bible. And they say in that translation, it went through a series of things, they say ‘illicit sex amongst men’ which forces the reader to think what's elicited and with whom? What's really going on here? It's not a general blanket statement, like a prostitute, or a sexual pervert, or some of these other things that have been used over time. So that was really surprising, but also awesome. You know, it really then gave us that peace throughout as well, where it's not, again, an us-versus-them kind of movie. And, you know, it's like, look at what they did to us, you know. Because I really didn't want to make that movie, you know what I mean? We don't want to make that movie. 

And then the other surprising thing was, from dealing with social media and dealing with the audience early on, I turned to social media for fundraising, but also community building, and also volunteers. Again, if you look at the credits of the film, a lot of those people, most of those people are volunteers, and or during the final one minute of Mary Lambert's single that she put out called We Belong, all of those are donors. It's incredible. So we met all these people via social media, and dealing with social media was really interesting and brutal. And this is during TikTok, I would say, like, the prime time of deconstruction. And people who are really deconstruction, voices were coming out, and more pastors, and people were getting vocal, and I was like, wow, this is so interesting. And we were very successful on TikTok and grew quite quickly. But the pushback that we got from some of the community members was really surprising. So we would get pushback from, of course, the obvious, the conservatives. But we would get pushback from atheist communities and be like, “Well, of course the word homosexual, you know, it means homosexual. And this is the stupidest concept,” you know, I mean, aggressively coming after us, not just a comment. It's like, “Guys, just watch the movie. Give us a chance, you know?” And so it was really a painful time to go through, too, because they were like when you go, when you turn on, and everybody's like, there's, like, a viral video of everybody saying how stupid your movie is. And it's just going back and forth. It was just a really bizarre time, like, how do you stick up for yourself? And we actually did have some people in the atheist community and then the Christian community basically tell these couple creators, like, “Chill out, you're acting like a fundamental Christian. Give it a chance? And maybe there is new information here, or maybe there are things that we haven't been told.” And it was a thing, but then also from the LGBTQ community, we were called some of the worst names from some of the people in the community. And to me, that read “Wow, there's so much hurt from the church to the LGBTQ community.” And so I didn't take it personally, and I was just like, “You know, hurt people say hurt things,” you know. But I wasn't expecting that. That was such a surprise, you know? 

SARA: That surprises me, too. And to hear your generous reflection that there's been so much harm caused by the religious community. But, like, also here's the kernel of where that harm began, how it all kind of really started. And what's so interesting to me, and I'm curious if you'll reflect on this too, is conservative Christians, many evangelicals, and folks like your dad really attach to this idea of biblical inerrancy, the Word of God, the Bible is the inerrant Word of God that has come through these writers. And yet, this whole film kind of deconstructs that a bit to just say, but we can't ignore what happens when, through decades of translation, the context of history that this thing was written in and those two things feel just exactly at odds. Like they almost can't exist together. And I'm curious how you wrestled with that, and how you experienced that as you were making the film. 

ROCKY: Yeah, so I would say that they can't and they don't go together, and any honest reader of the scripture would see that. And even people who are conservatives, as Dan McClelland would teach us, have to pick and choose and negotiate with the text in order to make one text have more authority than the other. And they already are doing this. They just don't admit it. And so, I hope we can come to a place where people can have more honest conversations around that. Now, there was one time, too, where we had in our synopsis that this movie is different, where we're challenging, we're looking at, we're not just fixing a symptom or going after the, we want to cure the disease, which has been a biblical literalism. And we had one of our donors, a major donor, asked us to take that down. And I understand why. It's again about that pacing thing. And so, people, and like my parents really believe what they believe. And I know my dad has gone through processes of changing, because he used to believe, as it says, word for word in 1 Corinthians 6: 9 in his ESV, you know, homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God. Now he would believe – and what the church would call same-sex attraction – people can be born with same-sex attraction and still be Christian but you can't act on it. You have to put it aside and either be in a mixed orientation marriage, or remain celibate, that kind of thing. And so, it's a process, and he's changed in that regard, but it took many years, and a little bit of experience with his daughter, myself. And so we couldn't really do a ton of things in the film. We called it, like, the anti-woke, almost. I hate to say it. For example, there was one line where. Dr. Anderson said, “cisgender heterosexual men.” And I'm like, cut out the word cis because any kind of language that's gonna pull someone away from feeling they're being thrown into an ideology, or, you know, just kind of just derail them at all, so every single second in the film is intentional in that sense, where we wanted to say when and how would somebody turn it off, and would this be the moment? We don't want them to turn it off, we want them to keep going on this journey with us. You know, Ed is a bit of a literalist himself. It's a strange dichotomy, because he comes from that world. And he still very much believes that world, although he would understand that the world wasn't created in six days, as we learned at the end of the film. But he does allow the Bible to hold authority in his life. And he can talk on that a little bit more, and so his perspective and his point of view in the film and some of the things he says is very true. But overall, my goal as the director was to plant seeds enough for people to want to continue to do more research and dig in a little bit more, and maybe learn things like well, Paul might not have wrote Timothy in 1 Titus, which was something I learned through social media in a very harsh way from one of those experiences, where I did a video, and I mentioned that Paul wrote Timothy and Corinthians. And this person, who is a biblical scholar, who's now an atheist, was like, “Ha, ha, ha! They don't really do their research, see?” And I'm like, “Well, I didn't know. I grew up in the church. Everybody assumes Paul wrote these verses.” And so, we couldn't really pull the rug out from a believer in a sense where we need to pace with them to have them go in this movie. So yeah, it was really intentional. 

SARA: I hadn't really thought about all of that, but that is really, really interesting that you're figuring out how to thread the needle, so that as many folks as possible will stay with the conversation.

I'm curious if you have any stories about conservative people and their own transformation in their thinking as a result of seeing this film, with maybe family members or friends. 

ROCKY: So there's been some. I haven't heard too many personal stories, and I would love to hear more. So if anybody has one, please email us. You can email us at 1946thmovieInfo@gmail.com. And all of our info's at 1946themovie.com on our website. But I did hear a couple stories in the crowd. We were in the Bahamas once, how amazing we went on our film festival circuit. And we played to 30 people in the Bahamas, where women's rights are still really a big issue there. And, there was a woman in the crowd who confessed in front of 30 strangers. Maybe she knew some people in there, I don't know, it was a small community, that she has a gay brother. And after watching the film, she's like, “I think I'm doing this wrong. I really need to re-evaluate.” So that was a really powerful moment, and something that kind of stuck with me. And that was early on, that was four months into our festival circuit, so this is 2023 in March, or something like that. I've heard from other people, similar stories, because we've done watch parties all over the world. We've done over 500, I would say. I know in our one data report that we did, it was 500 watch parties in 32 countries in 6 months, which is incredible. And I'll hear stories from people who've shared the film, like, so-and-so came, and they're not there, but they stayed through the end. 

I'll tell you one story that did happen to us. When we did our road trip across America last year, which was our civic engagement campaign, and our impact campaign, we were in Memphis, Tennessee. And there was this couple that was there, a husband and wife, and the husband came up and was kind of like standoffish a little bit, and a little bit of distance, but very curious. You can see that eyebrow kind of raising, you know? And asked a couple questions, didn't really think much of it, but still kind of like, hmm, something's up with this couple, you know. The next day, I found that the wife had emailed us, slipped into our DMs, was desperately trying to get ahold of us. Come to find out, during breakfast, the husband told her that the movie impacted him so much. And now we were on the road, so of course we're like, “If anybody wants to help us with housing, our next city is Colorado, and we have an Airbnb we need. It's a thousand bucks.” And he ended up sponsoring that Airbnb for us. And we found out he’s a conservative man who believes homosexuality is a sin. He didn't want to go at all to the event. He came to the event. He came up to meet me, asked me a question and then, we marinated so much in his head, the next morning, he's talking about it at breakfast with his wife. And we made such an impact that he then sponsored that next leg of the trip. It was pretty, pretty amazing. 

SARA: That is impressive. 

ROCKY: Yeah, hopefully, it's still marinating with him. Maybe I'll find that wife and send her a DM myself and see how it's going. That would be a really cool follow-up. 

SARA: Yeah, that is really impressive. And I suppose, I don't imagine that the film will have instant conversions. As I'm hearing you talk, I'm realizing, like, it plants a seed that folks really have to chew on and sit with for that transformation to really begin. But I'm glad to hear that some of these stories, that seed is really being planted in some people, and I imagine in your process of making the film and in your travels with the film, there are still more folks like your dad. And I'm curious how you respond to people who still push back and feel resistant to the idea that the Bible they grew up with is mistranslated. 

ROCKY: It depends. If they are aggressive and just coming at us or me in general, that they're right and I'm wrong, then it's not really a good use of my time at that point. I'm just going to spin my wheels and waste energy that I might not need to. If people want to come and have a conversation that's a different story. And I think that then we can both learn from each other in that regard. And so, most of the interaction is via the interweb. And most of the interaction is people doing podcasts and different things, still talking about the film. And it's really interesting to hear the commentary that comes at us. Like, the one woman who wrote the book on how now empathy is a sin. She did a whole, like, 25-minute segment that I watched that pinned up in my Google Alerts. And she was like, “And we've talked about this before.” And I was like, Well, I guess I am really resonating on her mind, too. But it's like when you're dealing with somebody who just can't embrace empathy anymore, what would Brene Brown say? I mean, her whole schtick is empathy, you know? So it's like, wow, she needs to rewrite all of her books. So, it's just really interesting to see the commentary that comes back from someone who's so right, and then just some of it's nasty, you know? It's really nasty. There are some scholars as well, that get more nasty with Ed via social media, which it's really interesting, they pick on Ed more than any of us. I think because the other people in the film are either, Dr. Trevor has never been challenged. He's the only white cisgender male. I've never seen anybody, “Dr. Trevor's wrong, or I can't believe he's been in this movie.” The other people are either women or people of color. And I haven't seen a lot of negative commentary come directly at any of us, really. It all comes at Ed, from people that look like him, that are straight men and in high authority positions in churches or universities that viciously attacked him online. And I'm like, “You're supposed to be a leader in your community.” But we see the leaders in our nation behaving this way, and I just can't help but wonder, how did we get here as a nation? How did we allow this kind of talk to be acceptable in any platform? So that's been a little concerning. But Ed has handled it so gracefully. And he's so lovely. And I'm going to see him this weekend in LA. And we're going to do an interview in person, for a group. And God bless him for his grace to just kind of -- Because he gets it more directly than me. I hide behind the 1946 thing, and I do get my share of people making fun of me or whatever. But it's okay. People are talking about it. That's the most important thing. 

SARA: It is. 

ROCKY: Yeah. And their audience hears it from that side. So let them keep talking about it. 

SARA: How do you think churches should respond to this historical mistranslation that has caused such harm? 

ROCKY: Well, we know how some churches are responding, but having watch parties and having conversations around it, and have already made the effort to see how the Bible's been weaponized, not only against the LGBTQIA+ community, but people of color, women, reproductive rights, immigration rights, all of these things that we see happening in our land. And so I'm encouraged to see that there are churches out there taking the proper steps to embrace these social justice issues that are so needed in our land. People ask me why I do the work that I do, and why don't I just walk away from it all and stay away from the church, and it's been so harmful? And my response is, “The answer isn't less religion. It's more good religion, and more people doing the good work, and actually then taking this information and helping to relay it to people.” And that's what we wanted to do with the film. Now, for a church that disagrees with us or bashes us, like we were just mentioning, keep talking about it. Yeah, you know, at that point, I don't really know. It's like, you know, the sows of the world like my mom and my dad, and a lot of our parents, I'm sure, or loved ones, or sisters, or brothers, or cousins, that, you know, this isn't a singular issue. And so keep talking about it, we're going to be released on Apple TV and YouTube worldwide soon. So more people will have access all over the world to the film. Tell people about it. And encourage your non-affirming church to watch it. Try to get a screening in. We're going to try to do a screening in the town of Liberty University, Lynchburg, Virginia. We're going to try to go outside of Biola University in California, where they have Stand to Reason, which is putting out a bunch of harmful rhetoric and ideas to young people and trying to be a louder voice in all of this. So, yeah. Just watch the film. That's what I would say to them. Haha, give it a chance! Please. 

SARA: Yeah. Yeah, well, and I'm thinking, gosh, even those communities and pastors and leaders who are bashing the film on whatever platforms in their churches or on their podcasts and whatever, that even then, maybe it plants the seed for one person to, like, start to Google and read and think. 

ROCKY: Right. Yes. 

SARA: “Wow, I didn't know this, right? “

ROCKY: Exactly. 

SARA: And do that sort of one at a time kind of eye-opening moment. There's so many stories like that. And here's one thing I've been really curious about, particularly as we've been talking, and having watched the film, is that there are now so many welcoming and affirming churches and denominations out there. I mean, the film also does a beautiful job of expressing to communities how they can find resources to create affirming and welcoming spaces in their congregations. And many denominations are out front in this space. And yet, it still seems like this particular biblical narrative, this mistranslation, and all the condemnation has such a stronghold and overshadows those welcoming, affirming churches. And I'm curious what you make of that? 

ROCKY: The churches out there, the loud Christian nationalist churches are overshadowing the other churches? Yeah. That's something I struggle with every single day. And this week has been really hard in particular. So I think we just need to keep having more conversations like this, and keep showing up. Those churches need to be supported because churches are dying. And if those churches die first, we're all in trouble. And I've been trying to say it for years and we've said it on our podcast, like “Whether you're Christian or not, it's only a matter of time before the Bible's used against you.” And that's one of the things that I wish that people, some of these people sitting in those church buildings, would realize, you know? It's just a matter of time before it's used against you. I don't know what the answer to that is. And now, I find myself over in the United Kingdom most of my time, and feeling a little guilty, and wanting to do more work for friends and family back home. But I assure you, we are still 1946, or very present in the U.S, and trying to figure out how we can help in that regard, and be another voice for the elections that are coming up. And again, this isn't a right versus left, or red and blue, or Republican, Democrat. We were really, when we went on the road in 2024 for our civic engagement campaign, again, it's like, how has the Bible been weaponized, and against who? And it's not just the LGBTQ community. We have so much work to do, Sara. We need to end on a better note, though. We need to end on a higher note, because – and I don't want to be depressing either, because it is something that I struggle with every single day, and together we can get there. 

SARA: Well, we're living in a really scary, unprecedented time. And conservative religion is a really big part of the terror, I believe. And so, yeah, I think it's something to wrestle with, and to think about, and how do we combat it? Like you, I'm like, I'm glad to hear that you think about that all the time, because I think about it all the time. I'm still kind of sometimes surprised that that narrative is still so loud and so pervasive in such a way that people don't know. People in those spaces don't have a sense that it can be different and that there are welcoming and affirming religious spaces out there, ready and waiting. So, on this note, I'm really curious, where are you in your own personal religious journey and theology? Where have you come to? 

ROCKY: Well, I am learning still more every single day. I like to watch Dr. Angela Parker, who's in our film, who's at Mercer in Atlanta, is on TikTok as “The Boozy Bible Scholar”, and is also, for anybody who might not want to be on TikTok or even Meta, though. She's on Instagram. I'm sure she's on Facebook as well. As I mentioned, Dan McClellan and The Bible for Normal People And, I really look to, like, Zach Lambert, who just wrote a book, I'm not sure if you're familiar with his work at all, so I kind of fall into the world of how can we expand these conversations and then dig in more to not necessarily break down what's wrong with the Bible, but to learn what we haven't learned, because it's been hidden from us. So, I'm more interested in really like, a really good example is the God of the Bible had a wife. Her name was Asherah, and I'm like, what? That's a really interesting subject. So I love to learn about all of these new things, and learn how the Divine Feminine has been hidden from us. And if we really start to embrace these things, how different our society would be. So, those are the kinds of conversations I have with my geeky church friends and my Bible friends. 

SARA: Do you still think of yourself – do you still identify as a Christian? 

ROCKY: I identify as a Christian because I'm born Christian. I was raised Christian. I don't like to say that I'm a Christian, because it's been so abused. And so I generally, if somebody is like, “Where do you stand on your faith?” I would say I'm more of a Christ-follower where Christ didn't tell us to worship Him. Christ said to follow Him. Christ also taught us to ascend to this level of consciousness that we all have the ability of living and doing. And I think that's been stripped away in what modern Christianity is now. And we're taught that we need a savior, we're sinners, without the blood of Jesus Christ. I don't think that that's what Jesus was teaching at all. So there is a difference and the terminology has changed, even in my lifetime. 

SARA: For the LGBTQ folks and families listening in our audience who've been harmed by church teachings–and that is many of us–that's the primary reason why I think folks seek out Mama Dragons . . . 

ROCKY: Yeah. 

SARA: . . . is because they're trying to come to terms with their religious upbringing and their queer child, and when those two things are in conflict. What encouragement would you offer? 

ROCKY: I would say it gets easier. It really does. And I would also say, as we were talking about finding your tribe, just making sure that you're surrounded by people that love you, that support you just like the Mama Dragons do, where there's a community of people, you can get together, you can talk things out. Because the worst thing is to be in isolation, or to feel that you're going through something alone. And right now, especially in America, it's so scary, especially for our transgender community. And, I can't imagine experiencing what our trans siblings are going through right now, and how scary that can be. So I would say reach out to your trans friends, if you don't have a trans friend, find one, and let them know that they're not alone. And together, the two of you then aren't alone, you know? So, yeah, I would just say don't get discouraged, and remember that you're beautifully and wonderfully made, and no one can take that away from you. And there are organizations, there's a list of references on our website, actually, 1946Themovie.com\references.  

SARA: Your list of resources is extraordinary and beautiful. And we will certainly put all of those links in our show notes, so folks can access them easily. This has been an extraordinary conversation. And I'm so grateful, and I just really encourage people to please watch this film, watch it with your family, watch it with your religious community if you're still part of one, watch it with some friends. It's just so very powerful and sparks such important conversation. And before we wrap up, Rocky, we have some final questions that we like to ask all of our guests at the end of every podcast episode. And the first question has to do with the Mama Dragons name. That name really came out of a sense of fierceness and fierce protection for our queer kids, and so we like to ask our guests, what is it you are fierce about? 

ROCKY: Ooh, I am fierce about sticking up for my friends and not taking any nonsense. Sometimes the South Philly Italian comes out if you're ruffling up my friends. So I'm fiercely loyal, and I fiercely love, and I'm fiercely protective in that regard. 

SARA: Beautiful, I love it. And the second question is, what is bringing you joy right now? You wanted to end on a hopeful note. I always like to end with this question, because right now in particular, it is so important for us to remember to cultivate as much joy as we can. So what's bringing you joy? 

ROCKY: Well, there's a lot of things. But I just got married recently, and so my new wife, Diana, brings me joy. She's fantastic, and we have a wonderful relationship with my now-our cat, Ruben, who, again, is trying to join the Zoom. He's sitting right in front of us waiting for me to give him attention, and he always gives me so much joy. I also just got back from visiting family in Philadelphia. And sad news, my parents couldn't go to the wedding, but probably wouldn't have gone to the wedding. But they were very lovely to my new wife. And we even got to stay in their home. So things are progressing. And it was really nice. And they had a nice time, and we all had a nice time. 

SARA: That's pretty joyful. Yeah, thank you, thank you for that. And thank you for making this film. This has been a great conversation.

ROCKY: You are welcome. Thank you. 

SARA: Thank you so much for joining us here In the Den. Did you know that Mama Dragons offers an eLearning program called Parachute? This is an interactive learning platform where you can learn more about how to affirm, support, and celebrate the LGBTQ+ people in your life. Learn more at mamadragons.org/parachute. Or find the link in the episode show notes under links. If you enjoyed this episode, we hope you’ll take a moment to tell your friends and leave us a positive rating and review wherever it is you listen. Good reviews make us more visible and help us reach more folks who could benefit from being part of this community. And if you’d like to help Mama Dragons in our mission to support, educate, and empower the parents of LGBTQ+ children, please donate at mamadragons.org or click the donate link in the show notes. For more information on Mama Dragons and the podcast, you can follow us on Instagram or Facebook or visit our website mamadragons.org.