The Welcome Project

When it comes to healthcare, trust can mean everything—especially for transgender, nonbinary, and intersex people who too often face discrimination, misunderstanding, and sometimes outright harm in medical settings. Affirming healthcare isn’t just about using the right name or pronouns—it’s about safety, dignity, and the difference between being seen as a whole person or reduced to a diagnosis. Today In the Den, Sara is joined by Josh Blakesley, Executive Director of The Welcome Project PA, an LGBTQIA+ community center in Hatboro, PA, that’s redefining what affirming community care can look like.

Special Guest: Josh Blakesly

Josh, a Midwest native, holds a B.A. in Theatre at Northwestern College [IA] and a Masters of Divinity [M.Div.] at Princeton Theological Seminary [NJ] and is an ordained minister in the United Church of Christ. Josh, along with the Welcome Project PA’s founding Board Members, founded the organization in early 2020. His main focuses include: fundraising and development; diversity, equity, inclusion, affirmation and belonging education and training; interfaith immersion; event planning; workplace development and mentoring; media production; and the arts. Josh is also Pastor of Love In Action UCC, an open and affirming congregation. Josh has 26+ years of nonprofit experience, is a fellow of Interfaith Philadelphia, a founding member of The Society for Faith & Justice, and a Collaborator for Nurturing Justice. He also has written and directed various stage or film productions, and  has developed theatre arts curriculum for use in religious and secular settings. Josh enjoys running, playing music, traveling, learning languages, or making strange and funny faces. He lives in Philly where there is typically GOOD trouble to be had.

Links from the Show: 

• The Welcome Project website: https://welcomeprojectpa.org/ 
• Donate to the Welcome Project here: https://welcomeprojectpa.org/welcomeprojectpa.org/?page_id=16/ 
• See Me, Hear Me, Know Me Documentary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eo6Sxh5JA24&t=2s 
• Join Mama Dragons here: www.mamadragons.org 

In the Den is made possible by generous donors like you. Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today at www.mamadragons.org. 

Transcript

SARA: Hi everyone. Welcome to In the Den with Mama Dragons. A podcast and community to support, educate, and empower parents on the journey of raising happy and healthy LGBTQ+ humans. I’m your host, Sara LaWall. I’m a Mama Dragon myself and an advocate for our queer community. And I’m so glad to be part of this wild and wonderful parenting journey with all of you. Thanks for joining us. We’re so glad you’re here.

We know that when it comes to healthcare, particularly healthcare for our trans, non-binary, and intersex beloveds, trust means everything. And too often, folks face discrimination and misunderstanding and sometimes outright harm in medical settings. So, affirming healthcare isn't just about using the right name or the right pronouns, it's about wholeness and safety and dignity, and the difference between being seen as a whole person or being reduced to a diagnosis. Today, we are diving into that conversation with our guest, Josh Blakesley. The executive director of the Welcome Project in Pennsylvania, an LGBTQIA community center in Hatboro, that is redefining what affirming community care can look like. They have an extraordinary program called Healthcare Best Practices for Transgender, Nonbinary, and Intersex Patients. And through that program they bring together patients, providers, and medical students to address some of the disparities and fragmentation in healthcare, and the lack of knowledge in health systems in order to build meaningful change from the ground up.

It's community-based transformation, rooted in listening, partnership, and respect. Josh, welcome to In the Den. We're so glad to have you and be having this particular conversation.

JOSH: Thank you, Sarah, great to be here.

SARA: So, the Welcome Project. Pennsylvania, I know, has become such a vital hub for community connection and LGBTQ plus inclusion. And before we dive into the healthcare project, which is what I want to talk about today, I do want to invite you to share with us a little bit about how the Welcome Project came into being. What's your origin story?

JOSH: Sure, thank you so much. I love to tell this story. So It started with a faith community, which a lot of people are surprised to hear, but Love in Action, United Church of Christ, which is still an active congregation, community of faith bought a property in Hatboro, PA with the idea of creating this nonprofit hub for LGBT+ folks and allies, for immigrant communities, and also for interfaith work and cooperation. And so that was in 2016-17, when we found that space and moved in, and pretty much within months we had tipped the scales from being your typical congregation that was small, around 80 people or so, to a congregation that was more than half LGBT+-identifying and mostly trans and non-binary young adults, and some older adults as well. And that was completely new for us. There were a lot of reasons as to why that happened. But it happened, and we had no strategic plan. It just occurred. People started coming, and they stayed, and they became leaders. And at some point, as we were also doing immigrant justice work in that space, we realized that it was too big for our small congregation, and I think one of the tipping points was when Liz Plank from MSNBC and Vox Media came to our site to do a show. Her podcast was called Divided States of Women. And she interviewed me and one of our congregants, Radiance, who is a trans person who was a leader in the congregation. And that kind of, for us, became the moment where we're like, this is bigger than a church. And so let's see what we can do if we start another 5013C. So I went on sabbatical in 2019. And of course, global pandemic happened in 2020. So I was able to file the paperwork before that. But then everything was shut down. 

So in 2020, The Welcome Project, PA was already formed. The church was still there, and still is, and still owns the building. But the church gifted the building, as well as seed money, to start The Welcome Project. So that's a really important part of the story. The church was the only reason the Welcome Project was able to begin, and that was our goal from day one. We didn't know it would come this way. But this was the plan to not just be a church, but to be a hub for this work that we do. And so when the pandemic happened in 2020, we were all stuck in place, right? We were mostly doing Zoom meetings. We still are now, but different. We were forced to do it then. And what happened is, one positive thing, is that we were able to have conversations with people that normally would be difficult to have meetings with. Case in point, we started to have conversations with high-level people in healthcare: doctors, nurses, professors in medical schools. And some of our community members within the church and within The Welcome Project who were trans and non-binary, were constantly sharing stories in our support groups or in our other events that we hosted about how they had to drive really far just to get normal healthcare, like just to go to a doctor, right? Because they were afraid to go in the suburbs where they lived. And so they would drive hours or two hours to get to a place in Philly. And Philly has definitely a lot more options for folks. Like Mazzoni Center is this famous LGBT+ healthcare center, which everybody knows about, and they even have mobile healthcare. But if you live a long ways away from Philly and all that, it's kind of frustrating that you just can't go to a doctor where you live. 

So, the idea was very simple. It started with one of my board members. His name is Kai, and Kai in 2020, in this kind of setting, talking, was like “You know, I have one doctor in Abington, at Abington Hospital who is affirming. And he knows that I'm trans, and he's been great. His name is John. And I think if we meet with John we can, at the very least start a conversation about, can we talk to doctors about how to get better at their job?” Very simple idea, right? Kai, a community member, happens to be trans, had a good experience with one doctor. Can we just repeat that? I said, “That sounds great. I have a connection already with Abington Hospital. I used to do stuff with them. I used to visit people there through my congregation. Why not?” So we set up the meeting with John. He's the head of family medicine there at Abington. And he was amazing. And he says, “You know what? I'll go a step further. Let's create a healthcare symposium.” Okay. So here's somebody who's well-connected and he's the one who does that stuff at Abington Hospital and so we started. And it took a while, but we started during the pandemic, planning to do a healthcare symposium at Abington Hospital. And then in 2021, when things started to sort of kind of open up. It was Congresswoman Madeline Dean, who was in our district, who called me up and said “I want to come visit you at the Welcome Project and Love in Action UCC. I want to hear about what you do because I've been hearing stuff. And I really care about the work that you're doing, so I'd love to have a conversation.” So Madeline comes over. She's there for a couple hours. Kai was part of the conversation, too. And we share about our ideas for more affirming healthcare in her district. And she says “Oh. I want to be involved with that. And I'll even get behind it and help get people to participate in that.” So now we've got Dr. John from Abington. Then we have the head OBGYN, who also is at Abington, who identifies as LGBT+. He's involved, Jimmy Ruiz, Dr. Jimmy, and then Madeline Dean. So we're planning for this healthcare symposium. And in the meantime, what we're doing is we're meeting individually with those folks and we built our own cohort. So our cohort was very grassroots. It was in the beginning, it was Kai, Radiance, and a couple other community members from the church who are non-binary and trans of all ages. And we would meet pretty regularly, and just talk through what would be the things, like the top 10 things you want doctors to know? What are the things that need to change right away that tangibly can change? Like, intake forms, etcetera? What needs to happen today to make things safer and better for everybody? And so we worked on that together, so by the time we're planning a symposium. We have already a list of questions and a list of items to look at with the doctors and other healthcare practitioners. So our cohort grew to about 20 people. 

SARA: Wow. 

JOSH: And we had been doing trainings online here and there with nurses and other nonprofits and so on. So we've had some practice with it. And then Drexel College of Medicine – Drexel University College of Medicine reached out. And I had to connect with, back to the whole faith community thing, a person who knew me from Love in Action UCC who also is a person of faith, who is one of the educators at the College of Medicine, reached out and said, “I heard about you. I knew about you through the faith community, but now I hear you're doing this healthcare program. Can you and your cohort train our medical students? We do our healthcare symposiums twice a year online. And they're hungry for this. They demand that we do more in this area of healthcare training.” And so, we said, “Are you kidding? Yes.” So that started in 2021, and we've been teaching Drexel College of Medicine students twice a year since 2021 And we're doing it again coming up next month. 

SARA: Amazing. 

JOSH: Then, the symposium at Abington happens, Madeline Dean's there. We have around 15 doctors that represent different healthcare settings. So not just Abington, not just Jefferson Health, but other outside groups. And they're furious, they want to know how to do their job better. And that event was pretty amazing, because we also filmed it, because we – I forgot to mention that we got a grant from HealthSpark and Independence Public Media Foundation to create a documentary film that would tell this story that I'm telling you right now, you know how we started in 2020 with this conversation, and how it became this. And so it was all filmed behind the scenes, and even the symposium itself. And that's part of the documentary film See Me, Hear Me, Know Me that we created in 2022-23 through that program. And that movie and the training video that comes with it – our cohort, wrote and performed – is still used widely in healthcare settings. We use it in our training. I think, again, like I mentioned next month, we'll be doing that with Drexel again. And so our hope is that other people will model this and use it, and find this very practical grassroots way of making a systems change, I think, is more sustainable and possible. 

SARA: Fabulous. We'll make sure to put a link to information about the film in our show notes, so listeners can go right there. I'm really encouraged to hear that the medical school and the health providers, the medical providers, were hungry for this, and are asking for this, and are wanting this because that is not the narrative that we're hearing a lot right now from the government, anyway. But I'm curious, in that first symposium and even in subsequent symposiums, what are some of the big aha moments that come out. I'm curious to know what made it onto that top 10 list of what folks really want providers to know or to do. 

JOSH: Yeah, that's a wonderful question. And I think it's going to be evolving and changing over time. As we get better at things, I think the questions and the different things to consider change. 

SARA: Sure. 

JOSH: But overall, I would say what our group would typically say to doctors face-to-face is, first and foremost, I'm like any other patient. So, when I come into your office, I am just like that mother who came in who you just see every year for a checkup, right? That's who we are. We don't actually need you to address us in a different way. You don't have to be crazy about all this extra knowledge you have to have about us. We just want you to treat us as a human because if I'm coming in because I have a cut on my leg – this is a true story – I'm asking you to help me understand how to heal that and not get infected. And everything else about me, whether it's my sexuality or my gender identification or presentation, those things are so secondary to the cut on my leg. Right? Now, it sounds very simple, what I'm saying. I know that. I know it sounds so simplistic. But what has happened – and doctors will say this, too, and med students as well – what has happened because of the political environment seeping into a lot of the sectors where we work and live, right, is that even doctors who have no time at all, no time at all, and get very little information in med school related to specific gender-affirming topics in healthcare. So they're just trying to do their job. And it's crazy. And yeah, no time. So they just want to know: how can I meet this person in the moment, provide the healthcare efficient. And so we're saying the same thing. We're saying. “Don't get caught up with things like pronouns. That's a very simple thing. That's your intake forms.” So the first thing with Abington Hospital is, like let's look at your forms. That's so tangible. And make it easy for people to put down what they want you to address in terms of their pronouns. Done. Likewise, if somebody's going to receive healthcare who has been in transition, there's information that the doctor should have related to that, depending on what is the actual thing they're coming in for. Right? So, with hormone treatment, easy. I mean, like, if somebody's undergoing hormone treatment, they want the doctor to ask questions. They want that correct information, because they don't know. Most people who are dealing with HRT for the first time, they're terrified. And so doctors, if they don't know, for example about HRT and they don't know where to start, that's an issue. So, I think those are the two main things. One, stop freaking out so much about those little details that everybody wants you to freak out about, but it's not really the case, right? Go right to the human, very practical side of it. Intake forms from the start to finish, when somebody walks into your office or your hospital, How are they treated? How do they fill out the form? That's easy, right? Do that first. And then secondly, address the actual issue that the person's coming in for first and foremost. 

SARA: Yeah, it sounds like two things is, do the administrative work you need to do. That our community wants, names and pronouns, and information, and gender identity. But in the room, doctors: connect with the human. 

JOSH: Yeah, it sounds, like I said, it sounds so simplistic. But the aha moments for all the doctors were that. Like, when they're hearing from a trans person, “Hey, you're actually good.” Like how you just – we role-played some stuff, right? And when you do that, they were, like, saying to them, yeah, you actually did a great job. And the doctor's, “That's it? I mean, that's all I really had to do was?” “Yes. See me, you know? Here I am. I'm a patient just like anyone else. See me and understand that.” Take away that fear factor that I'm going to be targeted for how I present or how I identify. That's the key obstacle, right? I'm speaking for my friends in the trans community right now because I have permission to share this with you that most of them will say that the reason I don't go to the doctor or the reason I don't go in for this procedure that is a normal procedure is not because I think doctors hate me. It's because I don't know if I'm going to be safe. I don't know if I can walk into a place as a trans person, or as a non-binary person and sit in that waiting room and be okay. That's what I don't know. That's the unknown. So, if that's no longer an unknown, then my fears and my anxiety are like anyone else going to the doctor, because most of us don't like going to the doctor, right? It's already anxious. So to add another layer of that on top is the problem. So if we address that barrier, the floodgates open, and there's just room for conversation. 

SARA: How did your providers and students respond, and what questions are they asking? 

JOSH: First, I'll say that the students. for the most part, are so enthusiastically just in for this. They're passionate, they're demanding it. Even Dr. John from Abington, who works with the students that come in, or interns, has said that this is like the number one thing they bring up. “Are you going to train us in gender-affirming care for trans and non-binary patients?” 

SARA: That is so encouraging. 

JOSH: I want to say I was shocked, but I was definitely encouraged by how the medical students were across the board, just curious. Like, I think the curiosity is how we learn, right? So these medical students that we're excited to talk to in a few weeks are like that. They can jump into our panel. Like, we invite them to unmute and jump in, and just ask curious questions. And most of their questions are related to, “How can I, as a provider, help you feel safer in my space?” And each person may have a different answer to that. But that's the main question that they ask. And sometimes there are tactical questions which, I'm not a medical doctor, and neither a student, and I've never gone through HRT myself. There's some technical questions about hormone treatments and things that they will ask that are very specific to that. But for the most part, it's general questions about,”How can I create a space where you feel like I can come here and get legitimate, appropriate healthcare?” That very concrete question. 

SARA: That’s so great. 

JOSH: And I think with doctors, it's more so in “How can I know this piece of knowledge that will make what I do more efficient for you, and also see you in the way that will bring you to a better healthcare outcome?” Whereas the students are more curious about, like. “I'm going to do this one day, right? So I want to be different. I want to be better at it.” I think we all have that in us. And doctors will tell you this. And this is something you probably are aware of, and people listening too, the healthcare system is a system. And it's broken, and it's a big system, and it's so hard to change that big of a system. And there's a lot of doctors who don't love that system, and it is sometimes difficult for them to have nuances in how they provide treatment. But they do want to, the majority of them. 

SARA: That's great. That's just so, so encouraging to hear. I feel like we're not hearing enough of that in this particular political climate that we're in. I know in the Mama Dragons community, we hear from a lot of parents who are learning how to navigate the healthcare system with their trans youth, particularly when they have had long-standing relationships with family docs or pediatricians who aren't yet skilled or affirming? What thoughts or guidance might you have for those families? 

JOSH: That's a really good question. I think that's probably the question we need to all work on together because we started to say to ourselves – this is a couple years ago – “Can we create our own crowdsourced database of affirming doctors and start locally?” Now, that's being done, and I'm going to give credit where it's due. Folks in the trans community and in the medical community as well, locally, have done that, right? So it's word of mouth. It's in forums, online forums. And people are sharing this information. So, like, for example, we have a Discord channel, The Welcome Project. And that's where our support group participants–because we have seven adult LGBT+ support groups every month–that's where our community gathers between support groups. And part of what they're sharing in Discord is medical stuff. So, a young person who is in transition for the first time is talking to an older person who's already done that. And, “I have a doctor in such and such a place who's really great.” Or, “I went to this medical center over here, it wasn't that great of an experience,” you know? So that's what's happening, but to your question, I think, locally, that's probably the best way to do it. But I don't have the answer for certain areas, or zip codes where people don't know an affirming doctor. Because really, we have that here, too. There are places in Pennsylvania where people have to really look hard to find someone that they feel okay going to. And there are certain healthcare systems that are more trusted, for sure. 

SARA: For sure. 

JOSH: And those that recently have taken a stand for the trans and non-binary communities in terms of what they provide, like CHOP, Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, which is one of our partners, too. But there are other healthcare systems that have gone the other direction. That says we’re going to follow what the so-called guidance of this current administration is. 

SARA: Yeah, I hear you saying a lot about the value of community support systems that can kind of crowdsource and support each other, and share. 

JOSH: Yeah. You know what hospitals and clinics want to do? Let's just say it. They want to have a good business. Right? They want to have a reputation that they provide quality healthcare, very standard thing to say. And so, when you talk to individuals about that and your goal is not to criticize them. Your goal is not to judge them. But your goal is for them to also do that, to provide quality healthcare to this particular population of folks, they get it. It's a win-win, right? 

SARA: Do you have a thought about what kinds of questions parents can ask, or what red flags they might look out for when they're in this space of trying to seek affirming care for their kiddo? 

JOSH: I think what I've heard from some parents is – I’ll just go right to this. I think it's asking the provider, “Do you have any experiences working with, in this case, students who are trans and non-binary?” Just going right to it. I think that's important, to name it, to say it, because part of the fear factor is people feel like they cannot say it. Like one of my trans colleagues will say, “If I'm not allowed to talk about how I identify, I feel like I'm being erased.” Right, so it's first and foremost to say, “I have a child here, or a youth who identifies in this way, and I want to know what is your experience with that or knowledge?” And if the doctor is able to express, ”You know what, I don't have a lot of experience with that. However, I'm going to provide healthcare to you, to your child. And here, you're going to get healthcare. You're going to be well received here.” That's the initial conversation, usually that people have to know, “Am I going to be okay? Is my child going to be okay here?” And then we get to the technical stuff. 

SARA: Right. 

JOSH: I wish it weren't that way. I wish that the fear barrier wasn't there, so that we could go right to the technical medical stuff? But that's not the case. 

SARA: Yeah, and I think it's been encouraging to hear when there are providers out there who say, “No, I don't have a lot of experience, but I am willing to learn, and I will work with you.” And that's a really good sign. You don't necessarily need an expert. But you just need someone who's just really willing to be right there with you. 

JOSH: Yep. 

SARA:And someone who's not, is not the right fit. 

JOSH: Yep. And I think, too, that there are doctors who are doing this now. I know it's not making the news because they're just doing their job. But they're obviously doctors in every part of this country, and probably around the world too, who are specializing in areas of LGBT+ healthcare. So just like a doctor would say, you know, I really want to work with women who have children, and I want to work with women who are pregnant, I want to help them, or people who specialize in cancer treatment, or… everybody has a niche that they go towards.And there are some doctors right now that are saying, “You know what, I really want to be knowledgeable about HRT. I really want to help folks who have dealt with gender dysphoria. And to connect the mind and the body, and how that affects your overall health. I'm really curious and interested in helping there to be better healthcare outcomes for folks. And also, I'm really interested in screening for cancer, and I want for more folks in the queer community who are older and need to have these tests to get the test done, because it's preventive. It's preventative medicine.” So, there are actually quite a few people doing that. We just need to tell that story, and we need them to tell that story. And the medical students with their enthusiasm and curiosity, we need to continue to ride that momentum. 

SARA: Yeah, that's great. I know where I live, we have several really beautiful, affirming providers. But there's one in particular, they run a primary care practice. But their NP, their nurse practitioner, has become kind of a trans specialist and known in the community. As just sort of, “I will take on all the trans patients.” And their name is just shared widely. And it happened kind of organically, like you said. They were just interested in, here's a need. “Here's a need I'm interested in, I can help fill it. I've got some personal connection in this space.” And that's been really beautiful, to just kind of watch that unfold and watch the community get really excited around providers that gung-ho and that excited. 

You know, I mentioned this already, that we are in a really fraught and really troubling political moment when healthcare for trans folks and youth in particular is under attack all the time. And we're seeing clinics shutting down and folks unable to access any kind of gender-affirming care. And so it seems particularly important that educating providers of all kinds in what affirming care looks like is so needed right now. Do you talk about this with providers? Like, the high value of this in this particular moment? 

JOSH: Yes, I think it's harder now. I will admit it. In fact, we were so grateful that Drexel has stayed the course with us because we do a lot of training. And this year, we've done less of the medical training because I think people are scrambling to figure out what are we, you know. Like, I know CHOP is dealing with medical records, right, and not wanting to, obviously, release those records, which you wouldn't do, that's just not something that you do. So I think they're dealing with that first and foremost. And I will say that it's starting to trickle back in, where we've had some outreach from others who want to do more training. And I think that that's what it's going to take is right now, in this moment, to update. And I'm sure that's going to happen in two weeks with the medical students, is to update folks on real-time issues. Now that we've got clinics closing. We've got some healthcare systems abiding by the political windfall and pressure, shutting down certain services, particularly for queer youth. So then, how do we in the community get the information, the correct information, about how that affects people? And then I'll flip it to the positive side. How, if your clinic or healthcare system were to get better at affirming care for the trans community, what would that do for you? What would that look like for you? Right? I don't think that conversation is really happening right now because people are, again, scrambling to stabilize what they have, not wanting to cut programs and staff. So, what we're hoping to do, actually, this year is to continue to build those conversations up, going to hospitals, which we do, and talking to administrators. And saying, “Hey, I know what you're dealing with from the top and from outside. We get that. So, what does it look like for you to safely host this training?” And it's happening. So, I think language is powerful. And at the same time, we can be creative with language. Things like DEI, we didn't really say that a lot a number of years ago, we had different language, right? So if I don't say DEI now, and I say “belonging and community training" and I can get away with that, it's the same thing. So when we're having these conversations, I think it's important to understand, first of all, we are in a different era right now. And what healthcare providers are dealing with is really, really difficult and challenging. So we also have to put ourselves in their shoes and understand what they're navigating so that we have a different conversation with them. And that's what I hope we'll continue to have more of, is what today and tomorrow can we shift so that we can continue to educate doctors, in real time? 

SARA: That's really helpful, and I am realizing that's how you list this program under your belonging and community programs on your website. That's really beautiful framing. 

JOSH: Because this will come up, even if we're doing a training about something else for an unrelated, not even a healthcare setting, this will come into the conversation. People care about it. 

SARA: It's troubling, and also, I appreciate all the ways that you all are thinking about it and trying to find those helpful workarounds so that you can keep providing the information, and it makes me think about how important it is to find individual providers, pediatricians, family practice, primary care, internal medicine, to have these conversations with, rather than the top-level specialists who are all scrambling right now. 

JOSH: You're so right. You're so right, even a dentist. 

SARA: Yeah. 

JOSH: Training with nurses who are the nurses who do faith community work, like they're the parish nurses or whatever program. 

SARA: Yeah? 

JOSH: It's called different names in other settings, too. But we had a really good time with them just having the same conversation. I think there's a genuine enthusiasm to do this. I'm overwhelmed by that aspect of it, and I'm not being overly positive here. I really have not run into major obstacles with healthcare providers or medical students, or nurses who say, “Well, I don't want to do this, this is not right.” It's not happening. 

SARA: That's really great. 

JOSH: Even nursing schools, same, we've done training for them. It all was fantastic. 

SARA: That's really good to hear. I'm encouraged, too, because I think that, like you said, that is not the story that's being told right now. 

JOSH: You know what I want to say is, like, you're so right. I look at this program, and I look at what our cohort does as a narrative shift. So we're saying this is not a political movement. This was politicized, and it's not political. It's really just about people wanting to get healthcare. It doesn't need to be politicized. And so when we talk to doctors, we're throwing that out. Forget about all this other stuff. Be a doctor, and I'll be a patient. And of course, they're great even some of the people in our cohort who do that really incredibly important work that doesn't also get talked about, where they're role-playing with doctors in medical settings. Right? They're paid to go in and help doctors and medical students and nurses get better at what they do. And they're doing it in that area of non-binary and transgender healthcare. 

SARA: Yeah. 

JOSH: So, these folks are doing an outstanding work. Some of these trans and non-binary folk, even with our cohort, are in medical school. Right? So, this is happening. And I think it will continue to happen. And I love your point. I want to, like push repeat when you said, “Focus less on this top-level executive and administrative folk who are dealing with that big stuff, funding loss, all of that. And focus on the folks on the ground providing the care.” 

SARA: Yeah. I'm curious about the folks in your cohort, the trans and non-binary folks that participate in these trainings and conversations and symposiums. What have you heard from them about what has been the impact on them as participants in this work? 

JOSH: Well, they're so fantastic, I'll first say, because they are so willing to talk about anything related to this topic. And they're so courageous and so authentic about it. And they love it because for them, it's not just helping them in terms of telling their story and creating an awareness about this, and helping doctors and nurses get better at what they do. That's obviously a huge part of it. But it's also paying it forward. It's also, like, like Kai would say – and says in the film – but Kai says this all the time, like, “I want for a student who's now, like, 13, 14 years old who is non-binary or trans, when they're old enough, and they're getting healthcare, and all that, navigating the system, I want it to be so much better for them than it was for me. I'm an older human being now, and I've been through a lot and all this, and I transitioned later in life. I just want things to be better for those students who are growing up right now. And even better for those doctors and nurses who are providing the care.” That's the motivation. This is why what we do is different. We're in conversation. We're not going to sit there with a PowerPoint and tell you all the things you do wrong. We're going be in conversation. We're going to be in dialogue, because that's what really happens. In a medical setting, it's a dialogue, too. 

SARA: Yeah. 

JOSH: Tell me what you're feeling. Tell me what's going on. So we do that. And I think in the dialogue comes the resiliency to understand that, hey, we still have a chance. When we reclaim our humanity and human dignity, and have a conversation, good things happen. 

SARA: Yeah. That dialogue really reminds us of our shared humanity. I want to ask a sensitive question because I'm aware, we're all aware, that the suicide rate among trans youth and trans adults has always been very high. And it's increasing in this moment, in this climate. And I'm thinking about Middlebury College in Vermont that recently announced the tragic death by suicide of Leah Smith, the transgender student and former athlete and advocate in that space. And it just broke my heart to read the story. And so I'm curious, how does this topic, mental health and suicide rates, come up in your trainings and conversations with providers? 

JOSH: It comes up a lot. And I think the connection that's missing sometimes is between being able to receive healthcare that's affirming for who you are related to mental health. And the idea that “I'm here, I exist, I'm human, I'm okay, and I deserve medical treatment like anybody else,” right? Very simple thing. But that's not happening for some folks. So, if you've not had a narrative in your life, whether it's a friend, a family member, or even a doctor, who reminds you that you not only exist, but you are deserving of this healthcare and human dignity, it gets really hard for people to find a way to help. And I think lack of information and resources is what I'm seeing right now. I mean, we're overwhelmed with people who reach out for just basic direct needs. But as we talk to people about food insecurity and housing insecurity, inevitably we end up with healthcare conversations. And the need to find a place where “I'm going to be okay and get this help that I need, and if I don't find it, I don't know what I'm going to do.” Right? We are very aware of the challenges of this. And also what we try to do in community is support each other. We always, like in our Discord channel, we pay attention to if somebody's spiraling and make sure that they can get the support they need. And there's no perfect answer to it. But I think the more that people –I'll just say this. Being an ally is a day-to-day decision. So, if somebody is hearing from people publicly, online, social media, that you are loved and you exist and we see you, you're part of our human world, we love you, that goes a long way, random people they don't know. Of course, the people that you know – and I'll include your family doctor in that conversation, that matters a lot, too. There needs to be louder rhetoric, affirming people and less of the political rhetoric that just basically is a polarization of identity, rather than the humanity that we're looking for. So I think we're very concerned with how a lot of youth right now are looking for support and not finding it at school, because teachers are also feeling like they can't do a lot. 

SARA: Yeah. 

JOSH: And we talk a lot to schools. So, I think right now it's a community effort. I even look at faith communities, and I say, “You are spaces that are freer.” A faith community doesn't have the restrictions that other organizations or healthcare settings do, or even schools, public schools. Are you kidding me? So, we need to be louder in our support. 

SARA: And with the medical community, I think about how we've streamlined kind of mental health screening, right – that the institutional response to the mental health crisis is getting better in that there's screenings, and you get questions, and you get every time you go, and that human part of it needs to come alongside as well, right? And reminding docs that even though they are so overwhelmed and so squished for time, and insurance companies can be a big burden, to get to know your patients more deeply and one-on-one, and then that human side, so you can ask those questions, and not just look at the screening but say, “How's this piece going in life? How's the athletics?” Or, “You quit? Tell me about that.” I just kind of think, oh how can medical providers be a piece of the ecosystem of support that is so needed right now. 

JOSH: I think you just said it. I think it's such a simple thing. Focus on the patient as a person. You look at their chart – case in point, there are some folks who have not changed their name officially, legally. So, in their insurance paperwork, an official identification, they will have a different name than the name that they use. So, this is really not uncommon. There are other folks who, for example, migrate to the United States and have a name change for whatever reason, even people get married and things change. So, doctors have dealt with this before, intake people have dealt with this before. It's just looking at it as a common sense thing. “Oh, this is the preferred name. I got it, it's there, it's on your chart, great.” And then when you run the insurance, the person running the insurance knows, “Oh yeah, it's going to be a different name.” “Yeah, I didn't legally change my name yet.” “Okay, cool.” right? Or whatever. I'm going to run the insurance now. That's my job is to run the insurance, right? We do the same thing with payroll services. 

SARA: Yep.

JOSH: It's just really a practical thing. So, once again, going back to what medical students believe – most of them anyway, when we hear them talk – is that they want to just be good at their job. And that means meeting each patient as they are. “Okay, what's the issue? How can I be of help today?” But to your point, too, like if you're an athlete and you, “How did that go? How was your season?” You don't have to be the most friendly person on Earth. But it's more about just seeing the person as a human, treating that human. 

SARA: When you look into your crystal ball of the future, what gives you hope about the future of affirming healthcare? And what can all of us do to help move that along? 

JOSH: I think what always gives me resilience and motivates me is the individual people that care and really want to do the right thing. I know I'm so simple when I talk about these things. That encourages me. Like I said, I have not heard, from the groups that we work with and train, any of this negative rhetoric that's out. It's just not there. So, it's fabricated and created. So, within our communities. We need to be stronger with the information we have. That's what I would say. Number one, we need to be stronger with sharing information with each other. And when we hear misinformation, calling people in, figuring out what is the source of that information that you just said, and talking about it because we're living right now in this liminal time of this headline and this headline and this tweet, and this other thing. So we've got to get out of that cycle and talk to each other. And when you do that, that's what gives me the most. encouragement, is when we talk to each other. 

SARA: Yeah, I appreciate that. That sometimes is, we think, so big about all that is melting down around us, and that's just one very concrete thing that all of us can do in any moment of our day. 

JOSH: You're so right. It's a great question. And so it also led me to think about another thing that's working that also really encourages me is every year we host the Bucks-Mont Pride Festival. It's the biggest Pride in Montgomery County. And of the 130 vendors that we have, many of them are healthcare providers. All right? They enthusiastically, some of them even sponsor the event, right? So they put their name on the event. We feature non-binary and trans performers and other vendors and leaders, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. All those folks are there. All these healthcare systems are there, enthusiastically. And when people go to their booth or their table, they're sharing what they offer. They're having these conversations with potential patients. And then you've got mental health care providers who are there and saying, “We're trans-affirming. You're welcome. We're connecting your mental health and your physical health.” There it is. So these movements, like I mentioned the word system. We can't change the whole healthcare system in one fell swoop, it's impossible. But what we can do is, as a community and as healthcare providers, clinics, mental health care providers, if together, we are part of this movement and sharing these resources and getting the right information to people, that's how you build it because the more and more people that have been to our Pride Festival and say, “I didn't know about Malvern Health. They have gender-affirming services. They have somebody on staff who actually I kind of identify with. Huh. Oh, over here, Arrive Therapy in Ambler – good partners with us – they have this amazing healthcare program that they offer. Huh. There it is.” Because, again, we don't really have a list. We should, at some point, but we don't really have an official list, So it's all community-based, word of mouth, and then it's festivals, and it's healthcare symposiums that bring these people together. We were at the Trans Wellness Conference here in Philadelphia last year. We presented. 

SARA: Nice. 

JOSH: You know, fantastic. There are things like that that go on, and you say, ”Alright, this is how we do it.” 

SARA: Yeah, and as I'm listening to you, I'm thinking about the value of expressing our gratitude to those in our community who are the healthcare providers who are at the Pride Festival, who are really putting themselves out there and sharing that they're affirming and they are really part of the queer community, and just giving them a shout out, a little lift, like, “Thank you!” 

JOSH: Absolutely, because when you see that visually, you go, ”Oh. It's different than we're hearing.” 

SARA: Yeah. 

JOSH: Because it is, it really is. 

SARA: Yeah. It really is. It's combating the narrative right now is really hard. It can just overtake us. Even those of us that are deep in it, and know what the truth really is, and see the beauty of it every day, it can be really hard to not get sucked into all of that hate and attacking that's happening. 

JOSH: And the awareness, too, for folks that just don't know, they aren't aware of this gap in healthcare for particular communities, right? So, we've had this conversation a lot when we do training or even events that we host to have these conversations, where people just genuinely share, “I had no idea this was an issue. I assumed that every person, whether they're LGBT or not, is treated the same in the hospital. And wow, I had no idea.” And so, when that awareness is created, then they move from being a bystander to being an ally. Because then they say, “Of course I want a trans person to have a good healthcare experience, because me as a female, if I'm going to the doctor, I want to have a good experience. So, it also matters, because if that person doesn't have good experience, simply based on how they present or identify, what's going to happen to me?” 

SARA: Yeah. 

JOSH: It's just truth. We all want the same thing. 

SARA: Yes. Yes. 

JOSH: And giving somebody healthcare in a better way, doesn't take away from the healthcare you get. I'm going to get this wrong. But one of the great quotes from one of our cohort members was always like saying to doctors, “Hey. The more that you have this awareness and knowledge about our community and what we're bringing into your spaces, the more free you are, the freer you become.” It's like the healthcare video training that they wrote, a lot of it focused on the body and care for the body, and being free and letting medical providers and nurses know, you get freer, too. 

SARA: Yeah. 

JOSH: When you understand the difference between sex and gender, you get freer. And I think that's just a beautiful way of putting it. 

SARA: That is perfect. Beautiful. Yes, this has been an extraordinary conversation. I'm just so glad to hear about all of this work, and to hear all of these encouraging stories. But before I let you go, Josh, we have some final questions that we like to ask all of our guests at the end of every episode. The first question has to do with the Mama Dragons name, which came out of this sense of fierceness and fierce protection for our kids. So we like to ask our guests, besides all that we have been talking about for the last hour, what are you fierce about? 

JOSH: I love that question. I'm fierce about lifting up stories of people in our communities who are really doing the work of building humanity across lines of difference. People who have really had extreme challenges in their life, for whatever reason, and yet they are still doing that work of helping other people see their own humanity, and embracing that. I'm just fierce about protecting that work and curating spaces where people belong so that that continues to happen. And specifically, like right now, I'm seeing it in the work we do with immigrant communities but also how it intersects with LGBT+ communities. So, people who are seeking asylum who come from another country who are LGBT+-identifying. And I'm seeing the intersections and how they relate to other folks in the immigrant communities. And that's really motivating. And I'm fiercely protective of those relationships happening. That we're not in silos. We're not divided, we're not polarized. That is what I'm fierce about protecting, to shift to a narrative that's real. That at our base level of human existence, we do have a better chance of meeting each other face-to-face and finding shared values within our great uniqueness and difference. That is what I fiercely am all about. That's why I still wake up in the morning. 

SARA: Love it. Yes, so good. The last question I have for you is, what is bringing you joy right now? And reminding each other that in these times, we need to cultivate as much joy as possible. 

JOSH: That is a tough question. But a good one that we need to ask. This conversation brings me joy. These types of conversations, because it's a space, where we get to tell our stories authentically. That gives me joy. Art gives me joy. We're not making enough of it these days. But every time that I'm in an art space, or an art-making context, that gives me joy. It reminds me that it's still there, like, we can still do that. Music, art, dance, theater, those things always have brought me joy. And I think laughter. I think the fact that we can be in this moment, this liminal age where there's a lot of uncertainty and a lot of challenge and a lot of harm being done, unfortunately, and yet, here we are being resilient and laughing and joking and being sarcastic and showing up for each other. So that brings me joy. 

SARA: Great, yes, living life. Josh, thanks again. Thanks for the work that you're doing, and for the stories that you are helping people to tell, and the change that you are making in our world. We are so very grateful. 

JOSH: Well, thank you for having us, and for having me, and for telling our story. I really, really appreciate it. 

SARA: You bet. Thank you so much for joining us here In the Den. Did you know that Mama Dragons offers an eLearning program called Parachute? This is an interactive learning platform where you can learn more about how to affirm, support, and celebrate the LGBTQ+ people in your life. Learn more at mamadragons.org/parachute. Or find the link in the episode show notes under links. 

If you enjoyed this episode, we hope you’ll take a moment to tell your friends and leave us a positive rating and review wherever it is you listen. Good reviews make us more visible and help us reach more folks who could benefit from being part of this community. And if you’d like to help Mama Dragons in our mission to support, educate, and empower the parents of LGBTQ+ children, please donate at mamadragons.org or click the donate link in the show notes. For more information on Mama Dragons and the podcast, you can follow us on Instagram or Facebook or visit our website mamadragons.org.

SARA: Hi everyone. Welcome to In the Den with Mama Dragons. A podcast and community to support, educate, and empower parents on the journey of raising happy and healthy LGBTQ+ humans. I’m your host, Sara LaWall. I’m a Mama Dragon myself and an advocate for our queer community. And I’m so glad to be part of this wild and wonderful parenting journey with all of you. Thanks for joining us. We’re so glad you’re here.

We know that when it comes to healthcare, particularly healthcare for our trans, non-binary, and intersex beloveds, trust means everything. And too often, folks face discrimination and misunderstanding and sometimes outright harm in medical settings. So, affirming healthcare isn't just about using the right name or the right pronouns, it's about wholeness and safety and dignity, and the difference between being seen as a whole person or being reduced to a diagnosis. Today, we are diving into that conversation with our guest, Josh Blakesley. The executive director of the Welcome Project in Pennsylvania, an LGBTQIA community center in Hatboro, that is redefining what affirming community care can look like. They have an extraordinary program called Healthcare Best Practices for Transgender, Nonbinary, and Intersex Patients. And through that program they bring together patients, providers, and medical students to address some of the disparities and fragmentation in healthcare, and the lack of knowledge in health systems in order to build meaningful change from the ground up.

It's community-based transformation, rooted in listening, partnership, and respect. Josh, welcome to In the Den. We're so glad to have you and be having this particular conversation.

JOSH: Thank you, Sarah, great to be here.

SARA: So, the Welcome Project. Pennsylvania, I know, has become such a vital hub for community connection and LGBTQ plus inclusion. And before we dive into the healthcare project, which is what I want to talk about today, I do want to invite you to share with us a little bit about how the Welcome Project came into being. What's your origin story?

JOSH: Sure, thank you so much. I love to tell this story. So It started with a faith community, which a lot of people are surprised to hear, but Love in Action, United Church of Christ, which is still an active congregation, community of faith bought a property in Hatboro, PA with the idea of creating this nonprofit hub for LGBT+ folks and allies, for immigrant communities, and also for interfaith work and cooperation. And so that was in 2016-17, when we found that space and moved in, and pretty much within months we had tipped the scales from being your typical congregation that was small, around 80 people or so, to a congregation that was more than half LGBT+-identifying and mostly trans and non-binary young adults, and some older adults as well. And that was completely new for us. There were a lot of reasons as to why that happened. But it happened, and we had no strategic plan. It just occurred. People started coming, and they stayed, and they became leaders. And at some point, as we were also doing immigrant justice work in that space, we realized that it was too big for our small congregation, and I think one of the tipping points was when Liz Plank from MSNBC and Vox Media came to our site to do a show. Her podcast was called Divided States of Women. And she interviewed me and one of our congregants, Radiance, who is a trans person who was a leader in the congregation. And that kind of, for us, became the moment where we're like, this is bigger than a church. And so let's see what we can do if we start another 5013C. So I went on sabbatical in 2019. And of course, global pandemic happened in 2020. So I was able to file the paperwork before that. But then everything was shut down. 

So in 2020, The Welcome Project, PA was already formed. The church was still there, and still is, and still owns the building. But the church gifted the building, as well as seed money, to start The Welcome Project. So that's a really important part of the story. The church was the only reason the Welcome Project was able to begin, and that was our goal from day one. We didn't know it would come this way. But this was the plan to not just be a church, but to be a hub for this work that we do. And so when the pandemic happened in 2020, we were all stuck in place, right? We were mostly doing Zoom meetings. We still are now, but different. We were forced to do it then. And what happened is, one positive thing, is that we were able to have conversations with people that normally would be difficult to have meetings with. Case in point, we started to have conversations with high-level people in healthcare: doctors, nurses, professors in medical schools. And some of our community members within the church and within The Welcome Project who were trans and non-binary, were constantly sharing stories in our support groups or in our other events that we hosted about how they had to drive really far just to get normal healthcare, like just to go to a doctor, right? Because they were afraid to go in the suburbs where they lived. And so they would drive hours or two hours to get to a place in Philly. And Philly has definitely a lot more options for folks. Like Mazzoni Center is this famous LGBT+ healthcare center, which everybody knows about, and they even have mobile healthcare. But if you live a long ways away from Philly and all that, it's kind of frustrating that you just can't go to a doctor where you live. 

So, the idea was very simple. It started with one of my board members. His name is Kai, and Kai in 2020, in this kind of setting, talking, was like “You know, I have one doctor in Abington, at Abington Hospital who is affirming. And he knows that I'm trans, and he's been great. His name is John. And I think if we meet with John we can, at the very least start a conversation about, can we talk to doctors about how to get better at their job?” Very simple idea, right? Kai, a community member, happens to be trans, had a good experience with one doctor. Can we just repeat that? I said, “That sounds great. I have a connection already with Abington Hospital. I used to do stuff with them. I used to visit people there through my congregation. Why not?” So we set up the meeting with John. He's the head of family medicine there at Abington. And he was amazing. And he says, “You know what? I'll go a step further. Let's create a healthcare symposium.” Okay. So here's somebody who's well-connected and he's the one who does that stuff at Abington Hospital and so we started. And it took a while, but we started during the pandemic, planning to do a healthcare symposium at Abington Hospital. And then in 2021, when things started to sort of kind of open up. It was Congresswoman Madeline Dean, who was in our district, who called me up and said “I want to come visit you at the Welcome Project and Love in Action UCC. I want to hear about what you do because I've been hearing stuff. And I really care about the work that you're doing, so I'd love to have a conversation.” So Madeline comes over. She's there for a couple hours. Kai was part of the conversation, too. And we share about our ideas for more affirming healthcare in her district. And she says “Oh. I want to be involved with that. And I'll even get behind it and help get people to participate in that.” So now we've got Dr. John from Abington. Then we have the head OBGYN, who also is at Abington, who identifies as LGBT+. He's involved, Jimmy Ruiz, Dr. Jimmy, and then Madeline Dean. So we're planning for this healthcare symposium. And in the meantime, what we're doing is we're meeting individually with those folks and we built our own cohort. So our cohort was very grassroots. It was in the beginning, it was Kai, Radiance, and a couple other community members from the church who are non-binary and trans of all ages. And we would meet pretty regularly, and just talk through what would be the things, like the top 10 things you want doctors to know? What are the things that need to change right away that tangibly can change? Like, intake forms, etcetera? What needs to happen today to make things safer and better for everybody? And so we worked on that together, so by the time we're planning a symposium. We have already a list of questions and a list of items to look at with the doctors and other healthcare practitioners. So our cohort grew to about 20 people. 

SARA: Wow. 

JOSH: And we had been doing trainings online here and there with nurses and other nonprofits and so on. So we've had some practice with it. And then Drexel College of Medicine – Drexel University College of Medicine reached out. And I had to connect with, back to the whole faith community thing, a person who knew me from Love in Action UCC who also is a person of faith, who is one of the educators at the College of Medicine, reached out and said, “I heard about you. I knew about you through the faith community, but now I hear you're doing this healthcare program. Can you and your cohort train our medical students? We do our healthcare symposiums twice a year online. And they're hungry for this. They demand that we do more in this area of healthcare training.” And so, we said, “Are you kidding? Yes.” So that started in 2021, and we've been teaching Drexel College of Medicine students twice a year since 2021 And we're doing it again coming up next month. 

SARA: Amazing. 

JOSH: Then, the symposium at Abington happens, Madeline Dean's there. We have around 15 doctors that represent different healthcare settings. So not just Abington, not just Jefferson Health, but other outside groups. And they're furious, they want to know how to do their job better. And that event was pretty amazing, because we also filmed it, because we – I forgot to mention that we got a grant from HealthSpark and Independence Public Media Foundation to create a documentary film that would tell this story that I'm telling you right now, you know how we started in 2020 with this conversation, and how it became this. And so it was all filmed behind the scenes, and even the symposium itself. And that's part of the documentary film See Me, Hear Me, Know Me that we created in 2022-23 through that program. And that movie and the training video that comes with it – our cohort, wrote and performed – is still used widely in healthcare settings. We use it in our training. I think, again, like I mentioned next month, we'll be doing that with Drexel again. And so our hope is that other people will model this and use it, and find this very practical grassroots way of making a systems change, I think, is more sustainable and possible. 

SARA: Fabulous. We'll make sure to put a link to information about the film in our show notes, so listeners can go right there. I'm really encouraged to hear that the medical school and the health providers, the medical providers, were hungry for this, and are asking for this, and are wanting this because that is not the narrative that we're hearing a lot right now from the government, anyway. But I'm curious, in that first symposium and even in subsequent symposiums, what are some of the big aha moments that come out. I'm curious to know what made it onto that top 10 list of what folks really want providers to know or to do. 

JOSH: Yeah, that's a wonderful question. And I think it's going to be evolving and changing over time. As we get better at things, I think the questions and the different things to consider change. 

SARA: Sure. 

JOSH: But overall, I would say what our group would typically say to doctors face-to-face is, first and foremost, I'm like any other patient. So, when I come into your office, I am just like that mother who came in who you just see every year for a checkup, right? That's who we are. We don't actually need you to address us in a different way. You don't have to be crazy about all this extra knowledge you have to have about us. We just want you to treat us as a human because if I'm coming in because I have a cut on my leg – this is a true story – I'm asking you to help me understand how to heal that and not get infected. And everything else about me, whether it's my sexuality or my gender identification or presentation, those things are so secondary to the cut on my leg. Right? Now, it sounds very simple, what I'm saying. I know that. I know it sounds so simplistic. But what has happened – and doctors will say this, too, and med students as well – what has happened because of the political environment seeping into a lot of the sectors where we work and live, right, is that even doctors who have no time at all, no time at all, and get very little information in med school related to specific gender-affirming topics in healthcare. So they're just trying to do their job. And it's crazy. And yeah, no time. So they just want to know: how can I meet this person in the moment, provide the healthcare efficient. And so we're saying the same thing. We're saying. “Don't get caught up with things like pronouns. That's a very simple thing. That's your intake forms.” So the first thing with Abington Hospital is, like let's look at your forms. That's so tangible. And make it easy for people to put down what they want you to address in terms of their pronouns. Done. Likewise, if somebody's going to receive healthcare who has been in transition, there's information that the doctor should have related to that, depending on what is the actual thing they're coming in for. Right? So, with hormone treatment, easy. I mean, like, if somebody's undergoing hormone treatment, they want the doctor to ask questions. They want that correct information, because they don't know. Most people who are dealing with HRT for the first time, they're terrified. And so doctors, if they don't know, for example about HRT and they don't know where to start, that's an issue. So, I think those are the two main things. One, stop freaking out so much about those little details that everybody wants you to freak out about, but it's not really the case, right? Go right to the human, very practical side of it. Intake forms from the start to finish, when somebody walks into your office or your hospital, How are they treated? How do they fill out the form? That's easy, right? Do that first. And then secondly, address the actual issue that the person's coming in for first and foremost. 

SARA: Yeah, it sounds like two things is, do the administrative work you need to do. That our community wants, names and pronouns, and information, and gender identity. But in the room, doctors: connect with the human. 

JOSH: Yeah, it sounds, like I said, it sounds so simplistic. But the aha moments for all the doctors were that. Like, when they're hearing from a trans person, “Hey, you're actually good.” Like how you just – we role-played some stuff, right? And when you do that, they were, like, saying to them, yeah, you actually did a great job. And the doctor's, “That's it? I mean, that's all I really had to do was?” “Yes. See me, you know? Here I am. I'm a patient just like anyone else. See me and understand that.” Take away that fear factor that I'm going to be targeted for how I present or how I identify. That's the key obstacle, right? I'm speaking for my friends in the trans community right now because I have permission to share this with you that most of them will say that the reason I don't go to the doctor or the reason I don't go in for this procedure that is a normal procedure is not because I think doctors hate me. It's because I don't know if I'm going to be safe. I don't know if I can walk into a place as a trans person, or as a non-binary person and sit in that waiting room and be okay. That's what I don't know. That's the unknown. So, if that's no longer an unknown, then my fears and my anxiety are like anyone else going to the doctor, because most of us don't like going to the doctor, right? It's already anxious. So to add another layer of that on top is the problem. So if we address that barrier, the floodgates open, and there's just room for conversation. 

SARA: How did your providers and students respond, and what questions are they asking? 

JOSH: First, I'll say that the students. for the most part, are so enthusiastically just in for this. They're passionate, they're demanding it. Even Dr. John from Abington, who works with the students that come in, or interns, has said that this is like the number one thing they bring up. “Are you going to train us in gender-affirming care for trans and non-binary patients?” 

SARA: That is so encouraging. 

JOSH: I want to say I was shocked, but I was definitely encouraged by how the medical students were across the board, just curious. Like, I think the curiosity is how we learn, right? So these medical students that we're excited to talk to in a few weeks are like that. They can jump into our panel. Like, we invite them to unmute and jump in, and just ask curious questions. And most of their questions are related to, “How can I, as a provider, help you feel safer in my space?” And each person may have a different answer to that. But that's the main question that they ask. And sometimes there are tactical questions which, I'm not a medical doctor, and neither a student, and I've never gone through HRT myself. There's some technical questions about hormone treatments and things that they will ask that are very specific to that. But for the most part, it's general questions about,”How can I create a space where you feel like I can come here and get legitimate, appropriate healthcare?” That very concrete question. 

SARA: That’s so great. 

JOSH: And I think with doctors, it's more so in “How can I know this piece of knowledge that will make what I do more efficient for you, and also see you in the way that will bring you to a better healthcare outcome?” Whereas the students are more curious about, like. “I'm going to do this one day, right? So I want to be different. I want to be better at it.” I think we all have that in us. And doctors will tell you this. And this is something you probably are aware of, and people listening too, the healthcare system is a system. And it's broken, and it's a big system, and it's so hard to change that big of a system. And there's a lot of doctors who don't love that system, and it is sometimes difficult for them to have nuances in how they provide treatment. But they do want to, the majority of them. 

SARA: That's great. That's just so, so encouraging to hear. I feel like we're not hearing enough of that in this particular political climate that we're in. I know in the Mama Dragons community, we hear from a lot of parents who are learning how to navigate the healthcare system with their trans youth, particularly when they have had long-standing relationships with family docs or pediatricians who aren't yet skilled or affirming? What thoughts or guidance might you have for those families? 

JOSH: That's a really good question. I think that's probably the question we need to all work on together because we started to say to ourselves – this is a couple years ago – “Can we create our own crowdsourced database of affirming doctors and start locally?” Now, that's being done, and I'm going to give credit where it's due. Folks in the trans community and in the medical community as well, locally, have done that, right? So it's word of mouth. It's in forums, online forums. And people are sharing this information. So, like, for example, we have a Discord channel, The Welcome Project. And that's where our support group participants–because we have seven adult LGBT+ support groups every month–that's where our community gathers between support groups. And part of what they're sharing in Discord is medical stuff. So, a young person who is in transition for the first time is talking to an older person who's already done that. And, “I have a doctor in such and such a place who's really great.” Or, “I went to this medical center over here, it wasn't that great of an experience,” you know? So that's what's happening, but to your question, I think, locally, that's probably the best way to do it. But I don't have the answer for certain areas, or zip codes where people don't know an affirming doctor. Because really, we have that here, too. There are places in Pennsylvania where people have to really look hard to find someone that they feel okay going to. And there are certain healthcare systems that are more trusted, for sure. 

SARA: For sure. 

JOSH: And those that recently have taken a stand for the trans and non-binary communities in terms of what they provide, like CHOP, Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, which is one of our partners, too. But there are other healthcare systems that have gone the other direction. That says we’re going to follow what the so-called guidance of this current administration is. 

SARA: Yeah, I hear you saying a lot about the value of community support systems that can kind of crowdsource and support each other, and share. 

JOSH: Yeah. You know what hospitals and clinics want to do? Let's just say it. They want to have a good business. Right? They want to have a reputation that they provide quality healthcare, very standard thing to say. And so, when you talk to individuals about that and your goal is not to criticize them. Your goal is not to judge them. But your goal is for them to also do that, to provide quality healthcare to this particular population of folks, they get it. It's a win-win, right? 

SARA: Do you have a thought about what kinds of questions parents can ask, or what red flags they might look out for when they're in this space of trying to seek affirming care for their kiddo? 

JOSH: I think what I've heard from some parents is – I’ll just go right to this. I think it's asking the provider, “Do you have any experiences working with, in this case, students who are trans and non-binary?” Just going right to it. I think that's important, to name it, to say it, because part of the fear factor is people feel like they cannot say it. Like one of my trans colleagues will say, “If I'm not allowed to talk about how I identify, I feel like I'm being erased.” Right, so it's first and foremost to say, “I have a child here, or a youth who identifies in this way, and I want to know what is your experience with that or knowledge?” And if the doctor is able to express, ”You know what, I don't have a lot of experience with that. However, I'm going to provide healthcare to you, to your child. And here, you're going to get healthcare. You're going to be well received here.” That's the initial conversation, usually that people have to know, “Am I going to be okay? Is my child going to be okay here?” And then we get to the technical stuff. 

SARA: Right. 

JOSH: I wish it weren't that way. I wish that the fear barrier wasn't there, so that we could go right to the technical medical stuff? But that's not the case. 

SARA: Yeah, and I think it's been encouraging to hear when there are providers out there who say, “No, I don't have a lot of experience, but I am willing to learn, and I will work with you.” And that's a really good sign. You don't necessarily need an expert. But you just need someone who's just really willing to be right there with you. 

JOSH: Yep. 

SARA:And someone who's not, is not the right fit. 

JOSH: Yep. And I think, too, that there are doctors who are doing this now. I know it's not making the news because they're just doing their job. But they're obviously doctors in every part of this country, and probably around the world too, who are specializing in areas of LGBT+ healthcare. So just like a doctor would say, you know, I really want to work with women who have children, and I want to work with women who are pregnant, I want to help them, or people who specialize in cancer treatment, or… everybody has a niche that they go towards.And there are some doctors right now that are saying, “You know what, I really want to be knowledgeable about HRT. I really want to help folks who have dealt with gender dysphoria. And to connect the mind and the body, and how that affects your overall health. I'm really curious and interested in helping there to be better healthcare outcomes for folks. And also, I'm really interested in screening for cancer, and I want for more folks in the queer community who are older and need to have these tests to get the test done, because it's preventive. It's preventative medicine.” So, there are actually quite a few people doing that. We just need to tell that story, and we need them to tell that story. And the medical students with their enthusiasm and curiosity, we need to continue to ride that momentum. 

SARA: Yeah, that's great. I know where I live, we have several really beautiful, affirming providers. But there's one in particular, they run a primary care practice. But their NP, their nurse practitioner, has become kind of a trans specialist and known in the community. As just sort of, “I will take on all the trans patients.” And their name is just shared widely. And it happened kind of organically, like you said. They were just interested in, here's a need. “Here's a need I'm interested in, I can help fill it. I've got some personal connection in this space.” And that's been really beautiful, to just kind of watch that unfold and watch the community get really excited around providers that gung-ho and that excited. 

You know, I mentioned this already, that we are in a really fraught and really troubling political moment when healthcare for trans folks and youth in particular is under attack all the time. And we're seeing clinics shutting down and folks unable to access any kind of gender-affirming care. And so it seems particularly important that educating providers of all kinds in what affirming care looks like is so needed right now. Do you talk about this with providers? Like, the high value of this in this particular moment? 

JOSH: Yes, I think it's harder now. I will admit it. In fact, we were so grateful that Drexel has stayed the course with us because we do a lot of training. And this year, we've done less of the medical training because I think people are scrambling to figure out what are we, you know. Like, I know CHOP is dealing with medical records, right, and not wanting to, obviously, release those records, which you wouldn't do, that's just not something that you do. So I think they're dealing with that first and foremost. And I will say that it's starting to trickle back in, where we've had some outreach from others who want to do more training. And I think that that's what it's going to take is right now, in this moment, to update. And I'm sure that's going to happen in two weeks with the medical students, is to update folks on real-time issues. Now that we've got clinics closing. We've got some healthcare systems abiding by the political windfall and pressure, shutting down certain services, particularly for queer youth. So then, how do we in the community get the information, the correct information, about how that affects people? And then I'll flip it to the positive side. How, if your clinic or healthcare system were to get better at affirming care for the trans community, what would that do for you? What would that look like for you? Right? I don't think that conversation is really happening right now because people are, again, scrambling to stabilize what they have, not wanting to cut programs and staff. So, what we're hoping to do, actually, this year is to continue to build those conversations up, going to hospitals, which we do, and talking to administrators. And saying, “Hey, I know what you're dealing with from the top and from outside. We get that. So, what does it look like for you to safely host this training?” And it's happening. So, I think language is powerful. And at the same time, we can be creative with language. Things like DEI, we didn't really say that a lot a number of years ago, we had different language, right? So if I don't say DEI now, and I say “belonging and community training" and I can get away with that, it's the same thing. So when we're having these conversations, I think it's important to understand, first of all, we are in a different era right now. And what healthcare providers are dealing with is really, really difficult and challenging. So we also have to put ourselves in their shoes and understand what they're navigating so that we have a different conversation with them. And that's what I hope we'll continue to have more of, is what today and tomorrow can we shift so that we can continue to educate doctors, in real time? 

SARA: That's really helpful, and I am realizing that's how you list this program under your belonging and community programs on your website. That's really beautiful framing. 

JOSH: Because this will come up, even if we're doing a training about something else for an unrelated, not even a healthcare setting, this will come into the conversation. People care about it. 

SARA: It's troubling, and also, I appreciate all the ways that you all are thinking about it and trying to find those helpful workarounds so that you can keep providing the information, and it makes me think about how important it is to find individual providers, pediatricians, family practice, primary care, internal medicine, to have these conversations with, rather than the top-level specialists who are all scrambling right now. 

JOSH: You're so right. You're so right, even a dentist. 

SARA: Yeah. 

JOSH: Training with nurses who are the nurses who do faith community work, like they're the parish nurses or whatever program. 

SARA: Yeah? 

JOSH: It's called different names in other settings, too. But we had a really good time with them just having the same conversation. I think there's a genuine enthusiasm to do this. I'm overwhelmed by that aspect of it, and I'm not being overly positive here. I really have not run into major obstacles with healthcare providers or medical students, or nurses who say, “Well, I don't want to do this, this is not right.” It's not happening. 

SARA: That's really great. 

JOSH: Even nursing schools, same, we've done training for them. It all was fantastic. 

SARA: That's really good to hear. I'm encouraged, too, because I think that, like you said, that is not the story that's being told right now. 

JOSH: You know what I want to say is, like, you're so right. I look at this program, and I look at what our cohort does as a narrative shift. So we're saying this is not a political movement. This was politicized, and it's not political. It's really just about people wanting to get healthcare. It doesn't need to be politicized. And so when we talk to doctors, we're throwing that out. Forget about all this other stuff. Be a doctor, and I'll be a patient. And of course, they're great even some of the people in our cohort who do that really incredibly important work that doesn't also get talked about, where they're role-playing with doctors in medical settings. Right? They're paid to go in and help doctors and medical students and nurses get better at what they do. And they're doing it in that area of non-binary and transgender healthcare. 

SARA: Yeah. 

JOSH: So, these folks are doing an outstanding work. Some of these trans and non-binary folk, even with our cohort, are in medical school. Right? So, this is happening. And I think it will continue to happen. And I love your point. I want to, like push repeat when you said, “Focus less on this top-level executive and administrative folk who are dealing with that big stuff, funding loss, all of that. And focus on the folks on the ground providing the care.” 

SARA: Yeah. I'm curious about the folks in your cohort, the trans and non-binary folks that participate in these trainings and conversations and symposiums. What have you heard from them about what has been the impact on them as participants in this work? 

JOSH: Well, they're so fantastic, I'll first say, because they are so willing to talk about anything related to this topic. And they're so courageous and so authentic about it. And they love it because for them, it's not just helping them in terms of telling their story and creating an awareness about this, and helping doctors and nurses get better at what they do. That's obviously a huge part of it. But it's also paying it forward. It's also, like, like Kai would say – and says in the film – but Kai says this all the time, like, “I want for a student who's now, like, 13, 14 years old who is non-binary or trans, when they're old enough, and they're getting healthcare, and all that, navigating the system, I want it to be so much better for them than it was for me. I'm an older human being now, and I've been through a lot and all this, and I transitioned later in life. I just want things to be better for those students who are growing up right now. And even better for those doctors and nurses who are providing the care.” That's the motivation. This is why what we do is different. We're in conversation. We're not going to sit there with a PowerPoint and tell you all the things you do wrong. We're going be in conversation. We're going to be in dialogue, because that's what really happens. In a medical setting, it's a dialogue, too. 

SARA: Yeah. 

JOSH: Tell me what you're feeling. Tell me what's going on. So we do that. And I think in the dialogue comes the resiliency to understand that, hey, we still have a chance. When we reclaim our humanity and human dignity, and have a conversation, good things happen. 

SARA: Yeah. That dialogue really reminds us of our shared humanity. I want to ask a sensitive question because I'm aware, we're all aware, that the suicide rate among trans youth and trans adults has always been very high. And it's increasing in this moment, in this climate. And I'm thinking about Middlebury College in Vermont that recently announced the tragic death by suicide of Leah Smith, the transgender student and former athlete and advocate in that space. And it just broke my heart to read the story. And so I'm curious, how does this topic, mental health and suicide rates, come up in your trainings and conversations with providers? 

JOSH: It comes up a lot. And I think the connection that's missing sometimes is between being able to receive healthcare that's affirming for who you are related to mental health. And the idea that “I'm here, I exist, I'm human, I'm okay, and I deserve medical treatment like anybody else,” right? Very simple thing. But that's not happening for some folks. So, if you've not had a narrative in your life, whether it's a friend, a family member, or even a doctor, who reminds you that you not only exist, but you are deserving of this healthcare and human dignity, it gets really hard for people to find a way to help. And I think lack of information and resources is what I'm seeing right now. I mean, we're overwhelmed with people who reach out for just basic direct needs. But as we talk to people about food insecurity and housing insecurity, inevitably we end up with healthcare conversations. And the need to find a place where “I'm going to be okay and get this help that I need, and if I don't find it, I don't know what I'm going to do.” Right? We are very aware of the challenges of this. And also what we try to do in community is support each other. We always, like in our Discord channel, we pay attention to if somebody's spiraling and make sure that they can get the support they need. And there's no perfect answer to it. But I think the more that people –I'll just say this. Being an ally is a day-to-day decision. So, if somebody is hearing from people publicly, online, social media, that you are loved and you exist and we see you, you're part of our human world, we love you, that goes a long way, random people they don't know. Of course, the people that you know – and I'll include your family doctor in that conversation, that matters a lot, too. There needs to be louder rhetoric, affirming people and less of the political rhetoric that just basically is a polarization of identity, rather than the humanity that we're looking for. So I think we're very concerned with how a lot of youth right now are looking for support and not finding it at school, because teachers are also feeling like they can't do a lot. 

SARA: Yeah. 

JOSH: And we talk a lot to schools. So, I think right now it's a community effort. I even look at faith communities, and I say, “You are spaces that are freer.” A faith community doesn't have the restrictions that other organizations or healthcare settings do, or even schools, public schools. Are you kidding me? So, we need to be louder in our support. 

SARA: And with the medical community, I think about how we've streamlined kind of mental health screening, right – that the institutional response to the mental health crisis is getting better in that there's screenings, and you get questions, and you get every time you go, and that human part of it needs to come alongside as well, right? And reminding docs that even though they are so overwhelmed and so squished for time, and insurance companies can be a big burden, to get to know your patients more deeply and one-on-one, and then that human side, so you can ask those questions, and not just look at the screening but say, “How's this piece going in life? How's the athletics?” Or, “You quit? Tell me about that.” I just kind of think, oh how can medical providers be a piece of the ecosystem of support that is so needed right now. 

JOSH: I think you just said it. I think it's such a simple thing. Focus on the patient as a person. You look at their chart – case in point, there are some folks who have not changed their name officially, legally. So, in their insurance paperwork, an official identification, they will have a different name than the name that they use. So, this is really not uncommon. There are other folks who, for example, migrate to the United States and have a name change for whatever reason, even people get married and things change. So, doctors have dealt with this before, intake people have dealt with this before. It's just looking at it as a common sense thing. “Oh, this is the preferred name. I got it, it's there, it's on your chart, great.” And then when you run the insurance, the person running the insurance knows, “Oh yeah, it's going to be a different name.” “Yeah, I didn't legally change my name yet.” “Okay, cool.” right? Or whatever. I'm going to run the insurance now. That's my job is to run the insurance, right? We do the same thing with payroll services. 

SARA: Yep.

JOSH: It's just really a practical thing. So, once again, going back to what medical students believe – most of them anyway, when we hear them talk – is that they want to just be good at their job. And that means meeting each patient as they are. “Okay, what's the issue? How can I be of help today?” But to your point, too, like if you're an athlete and you, “How did that go? How was your season?” You don't have to be the most friendly person on Earth. But it's more about just seeing the person as a human, treating that human. 

SARA: When you look into your crystal ball of the future, what gives you hope about the future of affirming healthcare? And what can all of us do to help move that along? 

JOSH: I think what always gives me resilience and motivates me is the individual people that care and really want to do the right thing. I know I'm so simple when I talk about these things. That encourages me. Like I said, I have not heard, from the groups that we work with and train, any of this negative rhetoric that's out. It's just not there. So, it's fabricated and created. So, within our communities. We need to be stronger with the information we have. That's what I would say. Number one, we need to be stronger with sharing information with each other. And when we hear misinformation, calling people in, figuring out what is the source of that information that you just said, and talking about it because we're living right now in this liminal time of this headline and this headline and this tweet, and this other thing. So we've got to get out of that cycle and talk to each other. And when you do that, that's what gives me the most. encouragement, is when we talk to each other. 

SARA: Yeah, I appreciate that. That sometimes is, we think, so big about all that is melting down around us, and that's just one very concrete thing that all of us can do in any moment of our day. 

JOSH: You're so right. It's a great question. And so it also led me to think about another thing that's working that also really encourages me is every year we host the Bucks-Mont Pride Festival. It's the biggest Pride in Montgomery County. And of the 130 vendors that we have, many of them are healthcare providers. All right? They enthusiastically, some of them even sponsor the event, right? So they put their name on the event. We feature non-binary and trans performers and other vendors and leaders, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. All those folks are there. All these healthcare systems are there, enthusiastically. And when people go to their booth or their table, they're sharing what they offer. They're having these conversations with potential patients. And then you've got mental health care providers who are there and saying, “We're trans-affirming. You're welcome. We're connecting your mental health and your physical health.” There it is. So these movements, like I mentioned the word system. We can't change the whole healthcare system in one fell swoop, it's impossible. But what we can do is, as a community and as healthcare providers, clinics, mental health care providers, if together, we are part of this movement and sharing these resources and getting the right information to people, that's how you build it because the more and more people that have been to our Pride Festival and say, “I didn't know about Malvern Health. They have gender-affirming services. They have somebody on staff who actually I kind of identify with. Huh. Oh, over here, Arrive Therapy in Ambler – good partners with us – they have this amazing healthcare program that they offer. Huh. There it is.” Because, again, we don't really have a list. We should, at some point, but we don't really have an official list, So it's all community-based, word of mouth, and then it's festivals, and it's healthcare symposiums that bring these people together. We were at the Trans Wellness Conference here in Philadelphia last year. We presented. 

SARA: Nice. 

JOSH: You know, fantastic. There are things like that that go on, and you say, ”Alright, this is how we do it.” 

SARA: Yeah, and as I'm listening to you, I'm thinking about the value of expressing our gratitude to those in our community who are the healthcare providers who are at the Pride Festival, who are really putting themselves out there and sharing that they're affirming and they are really part of the queer community, and just giving them a shout out, a little lift, like, “Thank you!” 

JOSH: Absolutely, because when you see that visually, you go, ”Oh. It's different than we're hearing.” 

SARA: Yeah. 

JOSH: Because it is, it really is. 

SARA: Yeah. It really is. It's combating the narrative right now is really hard. It can just overtake us. Even those of us that are deep in it, and know what the truth really is, and see the beauty of it every day, it can be really hard to not get sucked into all of that hate and attacking that's happening. 

JOSH: And the awareness, too, for folks that just don't know, they aren't aware of this gap in healthcare for particular communities, right? So, we've had this conversation a lot when we do training or even events that we host to have these conversations, where people just genuinely share, “I had no idea this was an issue. I assumed that every person, whether they're LGBT or not, is treated the same in the hospital. And wow, I had no idea.” And so, when that awareness is created, then they move from being a bystander to being an ally. Because then they say, “Of course I want a trans person to have a good healthcare experience, because me as a female, if I'm going to the doctor, I want to have a good experience. So, it also matters, because if that person doesn't have good experience, simply based on how they present or identify, what's going to happen to me?” 

SARA: Yeah. 

JOSH: It's just truth. We all want the same thing. 

SARA: Yes. Yes. 

JOSH: And giving somebody healthcare in a better way, doesn't take away from the healthcare you get. I'm going to get this wrong. But one of the great quotes from one of our cohort members was always like saying to doctors, “Hey. The more that you have this awareness and knowledge about our community and what we're bringing into your spaces, the more free you are, the freer you become.” It's like the healthcare video training that they wrote, a lot of it focused on the body and care for the body, and being free and letting medical providers and nurses know, you get freer, too. 

SARA: Yeah. 

JOSH: When you understand the difference between sex and gender, you get freer. And I think that's just a beautiful way of putting it. 

SARA: That is perfect. Beautiful. Yes, this has been an extraordinary conversation. I'm just so glad to hear about all of this work, and to hear all of these encouraging stories. But before I let you go, Josh, we have some final questions that we like to ask all of our guests at the end of every episode. The first question has to do with the Mama Dragons name, which came out of this sense of fierceness and fierce protection for our kids. So we like to ask our guests, besides all that we have been talking about for the last hour, what are you fierce about? 

JOSH: I love that question. I'm fierce about lifting up stories of people in our communities who are really doing the work of building humanity across lines of difference. People who have really had extreme challenges in their life, for whatever reason, and yet they are still doing that work of helping other people see their own humanity, and embracing that. I'm just fierce about protecting that work and curating spaces where people belong so that that continues to happen. And specifically, like right now, I'm seeing it in the work we do with immigrant communities but also how it intersects with LGBT+ communities. So, people who are seeking asylum who come from another country who are LGBT+-identifying. And I'm seeing the intersections and how they relate to other folks in the immigrant communities. And that's really motivating. And I'm fiercely protective of those relationships happening. That we're not in silos. We're not divided, we're not polarized. That is what I'm fierce about protecting, to shift to a narrative that's real. That at our base level of human existence, we do have a better chance of meeting each other face-to-face and finding shared values within our great uniqueness and difference. That is what I fiercely am all about. That's why I still wake up in the morning. 

SARA: Love it. Yes, so good. The last question I have for you is, what is bringing you joy right now? And reminding each other that in these times, we need to cultivate as much joy as possible. 

JOSH: That is a tough question. But a good one that we need to ask. This conversation brings me joy. These types of conversations, because it's a space, where we get to tell our stories authentically. That gives me joy. Art gives me joy. We're not making enough of it these days. But every time that I'm in an art space, or an art-making context, that gives me joy. It reminds me that it's still there, like, we can still do that. Music, art, dance, theater, those things always have brought me joy. And I think laughter. I think the fact that we can be in this moment, this liminal age where there's a lot of uncertainty and a lot of challenge and a lot of harm being done, unfortunately, and yet, here we are being resilient and laughing and joking and being sarcastic and showing up for each other. So that brings me joy. 

SARA: Great, yes, living life. Josh, thanks again. Thanks for the work that you're doing, and for the stories that you are helping people to tell, and the change that you are making in our world. We are so very grateful. 

JOSH: Well, thank you for having us, and for having me, and for telling our story. I really, really appreciate it. 

SARA: You bet. Thank you so much for joining us here In the Den. Did you know that Mama Dragons offers an eLearning program called Parachute? This is an interactive learning platform where you can learn more about how to affirm, support, and celebrate the LGBTQ+ people in your life. Learn more at mamadragons.org/parachute. Or find the link in the episode show notes under links. 

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