Cookie Pusss

Drag queens are living proof that courage can come in sequins, heels, and unapologetic self-expression. They show us every day that bravery isn’t just about facing danger—it’s about showing up fully as yourself, even when the world might not be ready for it, and that sometimes courage looks like meeting hate with humor, compassion, and a touch of glitter. Today In the Den Sara sits down with the one and only Cookie Pusss, whose video of her powerful and surprisingly tender exchange with an anti-LGBTQ Christian protester outside the Canyon County Pride Festival went viral earlier this year. What could have been just another confrontation turned into a moment of connection, curiosity, and radical grace that captured the Internet’s attention. 

Special Guest: JD Hawley

JD Hawley, aka Cookie Pusss, is a performer and producer living in Salt Lake City, Utah, and is known for campy, irreverent drag and connecting with audiences on a more personal level. JD grew up in Arco, Idaho, and has been performing across the Pacific Northwest for over 5 years. His favorite topping of pizza is mushrooms. 

Links From the Show: 

• Find Cookie Pusss on IG
• Find Cookie Pusss on TT
• Watch the viral Pride interaction 
• Join Mama Dragons  

In the Den is made possible by generous donors like you. Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today at www.mamadragons.org. 

Transcript

SARA: Hi everyone. Welcome to In the Den with Mama Dragons. A podcast and community to support, educate, and empower parents on the journey of raising happy and healthy LGBTQ+ humans. I’m your host, Sara LaWall. I’m a Mama Dragon myself and an advocate for our queer community. And I’m so glad to be part of this wild and wonderful parenting journey with all of you. Thanks for joining us. We’re so glad you’re here.

Hello, Mama Dragons! Today's episode is so exciting. It is all about drag. I love drag queens. Drag queens are living proof that courage comes in sequins, and heels, and unapologetic self-expression. They show us every day that bravery isn't just about facing danger, it's about showing up fully as yourself, even when the world might not be ready for it. And sometimes that courage looks like meeting hate with humor, compassion, and a little bit of glitter. So, today we get to sit down with the one and only drag artist Cookie Puss whose video of their powerful and surprisingly tender exchange with an anti-LGBTQ Christian protester outside the Canyon County Pride Festival went viral earlier this year. What could have been just another confrontation, the kind that we see quite a lot on social media, turned into a moment of connection and curiosity, a moment of grace, really, that captured the internet's attention. So, we're going to talk about what actually happened that day, all of the emotions behind it, what it means to show up for queer joy in places where it's still contested. And how drag itself continues to be both an art and an act of resistance. Cookie puss, the identity of Cookie Puss, is portrayed by JD Hawley. So, JD, Cookie Puss, welcome to In the Den. It is so good to have you with us today. 

JD: Thank you very much for having me, I'm excited to be here. 

SARA: I'm so excited to be here with you, because I have now watched that viral video multiple times. I have shown it to groups of people as we talk about how challenging it is to engage with opposition in this time. So it's just really such a beautiful teaching lesson, and I hope you can start by taking us through that day at Canyon County Pride. You were walking into the festival in full makeup because you were performing on stage later. And you were filming some of the anti-LGBT Christian protesters – which folks have become sadly used to outside pride festivals – but what made you decide to stop in that moment and engage with this gentleman? 

JD: Well, let's see. Canyon County Pride, that was the second year that they had had that. And it's an event that I really love. It's really special to me because I lived out in Canyon County. And so, for me, going there that day, I was really just looking to find opportunities to express joy. And if I had the opportunity to engage positively with someone – it wasn't necessarily on my mind – but I am the kind of person that does not shy away from having potentially uncomfortable interactions with, especially with protesters, or with people that might disagree with me, especially in drag, because it's a very unique position to be in, to walk around like that, especially when you're going to a place like a Pride festival, where you're in the crowd more often than you're not, you know? And so, I went and performed, and it was incredibly hot. It was oh my gosh, it was like 100 degrees. And then I got back, was going to leave, and he was there outside. And I had noticed him when I came in. He was talking and I just walked past. But when I was leaving, I saw him just talking really loudly, kind of to himself about religion and about persecution and all sorts of crazy things. And so I just decided in that moment, maybe he wants to speak to me? I don't know, maybe he'll say something to me, and we can engage and see where it goes. And so I just turned my phone on and I was like, “Hey, do you want to say something?” And, he definitely wanted to talk to me, and so it just went from there. 

SARA: It's very brave of you, really. 

JD: Thank you. 

SARA: What is so strangely delightful about the moment – and I want to let our listeners know that we'll post a link to the video in our show notes so that you can go watch it in full after this conversation. It's worth watching – but you let him spout scripture for a moment. And then he takes a breath and you ask him what his favorite pizza topping is. And it just throws him off completely, like the look on his face is just he is not at all expecting that. Did you know in that moment that is what you were going to ask him? 

JD: No, I didn't, honestly. I had no script going into that conversation at all. I was really, sort of in the moment, and I just thought I know myself well enough, and I know that I've had, as a drag performer, I've had so many interactions over the past five years with people, both good and bad, to know how to navigate that, sort of, or how to be able to detect if it's not going to go anywhere, or if it's going to be a bad experience. And so I just turned my camera on, started to sort of engage, and I felt that he was receptive. I mean, obviously he had all these crazy opinions, but he also, it seemed like he genuinely wanted to talk to somebody. So yeah, he was just going through his normal script, and I was just like, what's the weirdest thing I could ask this guy? Or, like, I guess the most kind of simple, unexpected, no-agenda question that there was no, I guess, endgame for me to try to “get” him. There's no “gotcha" moment there, I just was like, what's the one thing I could say or ask that would totally flip this conversation on its head? And it did, immediately. 

SARA: And your response, he recovers a little bit and he says something about the question being a non-sequitur. And you can tell he wants to get back to this debate. And you're like, “No, no, no.” And I love your response. I'm gonna quote here, because I transcribed it, was, “Well, I would give what you're saying a 5 out of 10, you're just kind of spouting stuff.” But then you say “I think the cool stuff is getting to know you.” And when you said that. I didn't expect to hear that come from you. “The cool stuff is getting to know you.” And then you say, “If you can just tell me what your favorite topping on pizza is, then I'll let you talk about idolatry for five more minutes.” Which, the whole engagement was just so genuine and so delightful. And you can just see the wheels in his head turning. And then not that much later, you say powerful words. You say, “See. Now we have something we can relate on.” Because he tells you the answer to his question. What did that whole exchange feel like for you in the moment? 

JD: I think I, like I said, at first it felt like, who knows? I felt like he was receptive. When we started to get into it, the moment I asked the pizza question, and everything sort of shifted. And I could tell that it was going to be something more significant than just a one-off interaction because it felt like, oh, maybe I'm actually reaching this guy in a way that I have not really ever been able to reach someone that I find to be in opposition to me. And then the way that he was just sort of, so genuine. I mean, there's moments even after that interaction, that video ends but we're still talking. And he wanted to keep talking. He wanted to keep getting to know me more, and I was like, “Wow. I didn't expect that.” It was not my goal. It was like a very unexpected and beautiful surprise for the moment. And then to see the way that it's resonated so much with other people, it kind of confirmed that like, yeah, this wasn't just like a normal everyday conversation between two people. 

SARA: And yet it was, in the strangest, weird way. 

JD: And yet it was. 

SARA: Right? Like, I just think, when it comes down to it, we all probably have an answer to that question, what is our favorite topping of pizza? And what you're sharing is that that is really, that is one point of connection. That's one way we can actually see each other as humans. And that's the story we are telling. 

JD: Yeah. Exactly. I think that's where it came from for me. It was like, everybody has an opinion on pizza, whether you, like, whether you maybe like it, or you love it, or you'll eat one type. I feel like it was the universal equalizer. 

SARA: Yeah, so you post this video. And I'm guessing kind of went home and went about your day for a while. At what point did you realize it was blowing up on the internet? And I looked it up as I was preparing for this, and at this point in time, it's about. 79,000 views on TikTok that I can tell, and 11.4 million views on Instagram. 

JD: Yeah, it's really become something more than I ever imagined. So I went home and I was so tired. I had just produced a show the night before, and then had Pride the next day. So I was exhausted. I was so bleary-eyed and ready to sleep that I just went home and I literally ordered a pizza. I ordered his pizza because he said that he liked bacon on pizza. And so I was like, okay, let me try this. So I literally got on Domino's, ordered bacon pizza. And it was good. It was fine. I mean, it was great. I was so hungry and tired that it was fine. But then I went to bed, woke up the next morning and looked at my phone. And I was like, “Oh, this is insane.” I have never seen the amount of views and responses and, I mean, honestly, it's been months and I still have not been able to respond to everything, or to even see everything that has come about as a result of this. And within days, it was on other websites. It was insane. It was, like, surreal. 

SARA: I can only imagine. You know, a lot of the comments in the video – folks who are watching it and some of the socials – a lot of the comments expressed some surprise, really, that you were able to turn the conversation around so easily just by relating to him and being as genuine and kind as you could be by not taking his bait. Or you were not defensive. You were not angry. You were not trying to argue with him, all of those which are tactics that many of us would have taken. Were you surprised at how the whole conversation unfolded, and the response that people were really responding to the moment that you weren't baiting him?

JD: Yeah, I think that that, what I've seen from the reactions of other people in the comments, and that people have reached out to me and said, “I was expecting for you to say this.” Or, “I was expecting for you to turn it around on him.” And a lot of people have even commented on the bacon thing, because there's some, like, biblical discussion to be had about bacon being a sin. So I read about that, and I didn't even think about that in the moment. And I find that a little ironic also. But the thing that has stuck out to me the most about people's reactions is that they feel like, “Wow, this shows me that this is possible.” Because I think, like you said, in today's age we're all so used to being shown the conflict, or the gotcha moment, like I said, somebody, sort of trying to bait. And he was definitely trying to get me to talk about things that I wasn't really interested in talking about. And so I guess my nature is to just try and find a way to connect with people, even if it's one small thing. And so I think that that's what people have responded to. And I think that's what surprised people the most and why it's blown up is you went into it expecting one thing, and it's not that at all, which I think is amazing. 

SARA: I do too. I really do, and one of the comments that really struck me was, “Wait a second, tricking them into a real convo might heal the entire world.” 

JD: I saw that one. 

SARA: And tricking is a misnomer, because when you watch it, once you get all the way to the end, it's clear you're not tricking him. You're really just trying to find a way to just see each other as fellow human beings and put all this religious stuff aside. 

JD: Yeah. 

SARA: And one news article called the whole thing a master class on dealing with anti-LGBTQ protesters. And I'll tell you, I believe that, because I have used it with people as a way to have the greater conversation about how do we talk to people who feel so hateful, who can feel so hateful. 

JD: Yeah. 

SARA: How do we have a conversation? And what you showed us is that we don't try to debate the nature of what's at issue here, because we're unlikely to change each other's minds. But there might be a way that we can still talk. 

JD: Yeah, and even through that, even through just finding a point to connect, that might be the thing that could change someone's mind. I think that we always – I'll speak for myself. I have, in the past like you said, I've gone through that trying to argue with someone, trying to debate politely, to try and it more often than not, you don't get very far with that. And so, if the goal is to try and find a way to connect with people and maybe to have them see your side of things, or your perspective, or even see you as a human sometimes, because that can be difficult. I think it's like, find a very simple way to connect with them. And if it's pizza, it's pizza. If it's who knows what it could be, you know? I just think there's power in that. Not in fighting, but in trying to be curious or trying to be genuinely receptive to a conversation. 

SARA: Be curious. I like that a lot. How has this moment, and the fact that it went viral, impacted you? Has it changed anything for you in how you're thinking about this kind of engagement, how you think about drag, how you just think about showing up in the world? 

JD: Yeah, it kind of changed everything for me, honestly. I feel like I'm still – because it has resonated, and kind of the impact seems to continue, honestly, and just recently as well – it's changed my perspective on a lot of things. It has reaffirmed for me that drag and the art of drag performance and that kind of expression, it reaches beyond just, sort of, this surface-level entertainment, like, that there can be something to it that it transcends. And the impact can be so much more broad. I got into drag just as a means to try and, honestly, as a means to try and connect with people, and to try and obviously express myself, but to sort of feel that connection with people. I love to host during drag shows, so that's a big thing for me. So I feel like, yeah, it's been eye-opening. It has changed everything. And it makes me feel so happy and excited to continue to do that kind of work, because it can be difficult. When you're a drag performer, there are moments when it feels like nobody understands. There's so much opposition to what you want to do, especially recently. The climate has changed a lot, and so for me it just kind of, it was a reaffirmation that maybe what I'm doing is having a positive impact. 

SARA: Yeah, that's beautiful. And I know that drag is a huge part of your life. But you're a part of the drag scene in Salt Lake City where you just moved and were recently named the Utah Director of Drag on Demand. Congratulations. 

JD: Thank you. 

SARA: You're welcome. How did you get into drag… 

JD: Oh my goodness. 

SARA: … originally? 

JD: Originally, yeah. I got into drag in the very beginning of the pandemic. So it was, like, March of 2020. And everything shut down. I remember the day, it was, like, March 17th or something after, I think, everybody had just sort of been ordered to go home and stay home. I had been sort of watching Drag Race, I had been attending drag shows right up until all of humanity shut down, basically. And so I had this interest. And I had nothing but time on my hands, essentially, and sort of just like a blank slate to start with. And I was like, why not just try it? There's no consequence. I can just do it in my room and see what happens. And so I spent 4 hours one night getting made up, and it was terrible. I’ve only shown a few people the pictures. But I got dressed up, and I took pictures. And I was just sort of feeling that, and I had never really done that before. I'd never really done a full face of makeup or really committed to that. And so that was the first time I did it. And then I think, let's see, five months later, six months later, I had the opportunity to do a show called The Virgin Show at the Balcony Club in Boise. And this was still during the pandemic so there was only like 25 people allowed in the bar. And I couldn't get off the stage. I had to wear a mask until I got to the stage. It was definitely a very non-traditional show. But that was my first experience being in front of people, and doing drag like that. And it was electric. It was insane. Like, I couldn't come off of that high after I left the stage. And I've just been doing it ever since. I haven't stopped. 

SARA: That's amazing. Even considering the challenges of that environment in pandemic times with masking, and very few people in the audience. 

JD: Yeah, oh yeah. And since then, I've had the chance to perform for more audiences. But I think that that stands out as a very unique experience, though, because it was somehow more vulnerable to have so few people. It felt like – I don't know – it felt like, you know, like I was being seen more, I don't know. I will be honest, I was the most nervous I've ever been, the first time. 

SARA: Oh, I imagine. Now, I understand that often there are stories around drag names. And I'm wondering if your story and the drag name of Cookie Puss has a story behind it. 

JD: Oh, yes, it does, for sure. It's so interesting. So there's a cake company called Carvel Cakes and they have a character called Cookie Puss that they put on their cakes. I was, I think maybe this came from 30 Rock. I don't know if you're familiar with 30 Rock, it's a Tina Fey show. I love it. It's one of my favorite shows. One of the characters in that show mentions, they just say the term cookie puss. And I was like, what is that? So I looked it up, saw that it was this cake company, saw the face that was on the cakes. And I was like, “Oh my gosh. That might look like me in drag.” It was just so silly in the moment to think of. And I loved the name. It just was in my head. And I originally had a different name that was Jenna Baby. That was my first name. And it just never connected. It didn't feel funny. It didn't stand out enough. And so I looked that up and saw that, I was like, “Okay, this is funny to me and silly.” And it's like telling people my name always gets a reaction. And I think that that's the mark of a good drag name. 

SARA: For sure. And as it should be, I mean, I think in hearing your story, and then in thinking about the video and the interaction, I mean, that kind of levity, right, is the whole point of drag. Well, it's one point of drag, perhaps not the whole point, right? Joy and delight, and laughter, and maybe not taking life quite so seriously. 

JD: Yeah, that's always been my inroad for drag. Like my philosophy is to be silly, to find levity, to not take everything so seriously, so yeah it all fits. 

SARA: And so, thinking about your evolution with drag from that first drag show in pandemic times in March of 2020 to now, how has it impacted your life?

JD: It would be hard to say, because it's just become so much of me. Like, I think I don't even know who I would be without it at this point. And that was not what I expected. When I got into it and started performing it was really just as a means of keeping myself sane, because I thought that potentially the world was ending with the pandemic. And so it just started as a form of expression of a way to escape. And it became and is now something that I'll probably do in some capacity for the rest of my life, I hope, at least, to do. I think. It showed me that being a performer can be so much more than just acting in a play, because I've been trying to act. I've been an actor in some capacity for, I don't know, like, 20 years. Just since I was young, I've always wanted to act, and it never really hit for me. And so drag has become what I feel like I needed and didn't know I needed. I didn't realize that this kind of expression was even possible for me, I don't think, because I grew up in a small town. And I've always struggled with, I guess, embracing my feminine side. This has allowed me to do that in a way that I didn't really think was possible. So yeah, it's amazing. 

SARA: That's beautiful. I wonder if you'd be willing to share a little bit about your coming out experience. You talked about being raised in a small town, struggling to embrace your feminine side, and I ask because I think for our audience of parents, it's really helpful to hear the stories of other people and to think about how, both how familiar they are, like where are those points of connection in our own lives with our own kids, you know, what variety there is to coming out stories. 

JD: Yeah, I mean, mine is pretty unique, I would say. I've known that I was gay since I was very young. And I didn't always know how to express it. But I would say the first time I remember having a conversation with my mother about potentially being gay I was, like, five years old, six years old. I think I was in first grade. And, I came home from school. People at school, boys at school, were calling me gay. And I came home and I went to my mother, and I was like, “Mom, I think I'm gay.” And I said, “All of these boys are calling me gay.” And she said, “You don't know what that is. You're not gay. I promise you, you're not.” And I remember, in that moment – to this day I can still remember the feeling of thinking, “No, I think that they're right.” It didn't even feel negative. It felt like there was something that I knew about me and that I understood, even at a young age what that was. Not even in regards to sexual preference, just, I think, in terms of being queer, like, being different in a way that transcends, I guess, sexual orientation. But I knew from a young age that I was different. And my actual coming out story was when I was in high school. I was in a town called Arco, Idaho, and I was student body president of my high school when I was a senior. And, I told two of my really close friends that I was gay. And one of them – she's great, she's amazing – she, I guess she didn't tell anybody, she kept my secret at that point. And the other person told literally everybody in my school. It was, I mean, by the next day, everybody knew. And it's such a small town, that, I mean, it's not just, like, the kids. Like, my mom found out because of all this gossip happening. It sort of took away the chance for me to have that conversation with people, which at the time, was really difficult and was really hurtful. I think everything happens for a reason. And I think for me it was a huge learning lesson in that you can't control what people think about you. Or you can't control the reactions of the world. And it made me a lot stronger. But it was very difficult, I will say. And it was a different time. I think that things have changed recently, I think for the better, in terms of people coming out. I got bullied a lot. I'll say that. It wasn't great. But it taught me how to be strong. 

SARA: How did your mom react? How did that go? 

JD: At first, it was not easy. I would say my mom has become my most supportive family member. At first, she wasn't. She was not happy about it, I would say. I think she's tried to explain this to me, the older I get, that it wasn't coming from a place of judgment. I think she was terrified at that point, this was like 2006. And I think that she maybe didn't understand fully what being gay was. I think it was a lot for her. It was a lot of, like, misinformation. She was, I think, the most worried about my health and about me being okay. And the way she expressed that was, it was rough. But we got through it, and she is great now. She's an amazing ally. She loves drag. She loves my drag. She wants to come to a show desperately, so she's great now. 

SARA: Has she seen a show of yours? 

JD: She has not gotten to see a show of mine yet. She lives in Montana, and she's not really able to travel. So my goal is to go to Montana to come to her, and to do a show one day. So hopefully that happens. 

SARA: Oh, I hope that happens, too. That sounds lovely. And something that I hadn't really given a lot of thought to until I'm hearing you talk about the fear that your mom carried and thinking, well yes of course, in the early 2000s, right as the AIDS crisis has calmed down. But that fear is still very much lived with people, I think, that “Gay equals AIDS.”

JD: Oh, absolutely. 

SARA: That's really hard to parse out as a parent, I'm sure, in that moment. 

JD: Yeah, she was really afraid, And this was all before, like, there have been advances in medicine with PrEP and DoxyPEP, all these different medicines that have changed, I think, a lot of that narrative. But at the time, it was a different time, and it was terrifying. And I was – honestly, at that point for myself, I hadn't even gotten there. I was not even, I was still in high school, so I hadn't had any boyfriends or anything. But I was still terrified. It felt to me like, and sad to say, it felt like a death sentence, almost. And it was because I was so misinformed, because I was so young, and the conversation was different at the time. So, looking back, I understand a lot of why she felt the way she felt, and I'm grateful that things have changed. But yeah, it was a very different time. 

SARA: Yeah. And along this same line we hear a lot of myths, not only about gayness, but also about drag. And you mentioned a little bit about how much drag has been under attack. And those attacks have really grown over the last few years, particularly in very conservative red states. And we hear these terrible, awful things about indoctrinating and grooming children into this LGBTQ lifestyle. I want to always take some time to debunk those myths, and debunk those myths, particularly for parents who might be easily susceptible to some of those messages. So I'd love to hear you talk about that a little bit. Talk to parents, and particularly about how to respond if their kiddo expresses interest in drag. 

JD: I've thought about this a lot. And I understand that there's so much nuance to this conversation, and it's not like a black and white, right or wrong thing. So I understand. I would say, to answer your last question about, if your kid expresses interest in drag: As someone who's gone through that as an adult I can only say, to me, drag feels like acting. It feels very similar because of what it requires of you, and I think if people understood more about what it actually is versus what, like, sort of the myth behind it. It's really just you're a performer, but you do all of your own production. There's so many skills intrinsic to it. I think that it's very valuable to have those skills or to be interested in that. So if your child expresses interest in that, I would say try to nurture that in ways that feel good to you. I mean, if that means encouraging them to engage in theater, which Drag is. Drag is theatrical. Drag is stage work. It doesn't have to look like one thing. It doesn't have to look like drag brunches on a Sunday, which can be a totally different audience. I think that drag is so many things. It can be extremely child-friendly. It feels like, what I've heard from kids is that they think of you as, like, a superhero, or as, like, a Disney character. I think that the mindset can be so innocent when it comes to things. But it can also be other things. A lot of the events that I have done in drag have been at bars, have been for an audience of people 21 or over. And that is a totally different scenario, where you're engaging with a different audience. I think, overall, I would say, drag is what you make of it. And also if you're concerned about your child being exposed to things that you don't think they're ready for, I think that that's perfectly understandable. But I also think that to demonize an entire performance art based on your preconceived notions of what a select few might bring to that art, I think is wrong. And I think that hopefully, people can see that. Like, I sort of relate it to a PG-13 movie versus a rated R movie, right? Like, there are spectrums. I think my drag, like I'll say again, can be more adult-oriented. And I'm okay with that, because I think that that's what I've come to know is, like, my style of performance. But I know so many drag performers that they love to do drag queen story hour, and they find it's really fulfilling for them, because they get to interact with children who may not ever have that representation in their lives otherwise. To see queer people existing in a positive way would have helped me so much as a kid. So, that was a long-winded answer. 

SARA: It was a beautiful answer. Were there any role models, or were there any artists, or anything you turned to when you were young or in the early days of really coming out, like high school, college that you remember? 

JD: No, there were not any queer role models. But I will say, and I think that this is the experience of a lot of gay men I know, especially at this time period. I think it's changed a lot. I think with Drag Race becoming so popular, and also just queer representation in media being so much more broad, I think it's changed. But at that time, in 2006, in the 2007 era, that was not the case. The people that I look to, and I think what I found inspiration in, as a queer person growing up, were pop artists, like Britney Spears, and Lady Gaga later on, when I was, like, 20. Usually women, honestly, for me, it just felt like powerful women in media, I don't know, that always felt like what I connected with. And RuPaul, I will say RuPaul even at a young age, I remember very specifically, every time I've seen RuPaul, like, on television or when she had, like, a talk show, and I remember seeing those. I was sort of like sneakily looking that kind of stuff up, because I never wanted my parents to have any inkling of me, I guess, being gay until I came out. I was terrified of it. So I tried to find them in my own way, and yeah, RuPaul has always stuck out. I would say another one was Will and Grace, the television show. 

SARA: Of course. 

JD: Yeah, Will and Grace felt like the only show I saw. 

SARA: For a long time, Jack was the only gay character on television. 

JD: Exactly. 

SARA: That's what I grew up with. 

JD: Yeah, and I remember Jack and even Will, like, those were the main gay men on screen that I ever saw growing up. 

SARA: I wonder if I could ask some really practical drag questions that I have held curiously that I think others might be interested in, which is, first of all, I'm really curious, how do you learn to do all of that fabulous makeup? Where do you go? I mean, your makeup in particular, especially over the evolution of it over the years, it's stunning. It is extraordinary. And I just think, how does anyone learn how to do that? 

JD: Wow, well, first of all, thank you, because I didn't come from any sort of background of makeup when it comes to like – I never went to cosmetology school. I've never done makeup for other people. So when I jumped into drag, like I said, my first time, my first experience of doing it was very far removed from where I'm at now. So for me, I was literally going on YouTube, watching drag queens at the time that had YouTube tutorials. And badly trying to recreate that for months. And then getting ready and preparing for drag with other performers that are further along and just watching them, literally, like, as I'm getting ready, watching what they do, trying to emulate that. It's been just trial and error for over five years to get to where I'm at. I'll say I never expected myself to develop a skill set when it comes to that. I jumped into it just wanting to perform, and to, like, connect with people. So all of that stuff, like wig styling and corsetry, all that, that came secondary to me. And so I just had to learn. I've had to sit down and spend three and a half hours in the mirror. And sometimes it's horrible. Sometimes you just have to go with it, and it looks awful. And that's been a learning experience, too, is, like, failing. Failing at it, and then just continuing to do it. 

SARA: I think that's helpful. It's helpful to hear that you have to fail. 

JD: Oh, yeah. 

SARA: The first times, they're not good. It's a learning curve. 

JD: I don't know, there's very few performers I know that say that their first time putting on drag was great. It's almost universal that the first time, you got things to learn, and that's okay. That's part of it. 

SARA: I'm also very curious about the outfits, and the style. I mean, something about the sparkle, and just the wild, beautiful outrageousness of the costuming and drag that is amazing, and I think perhaps maybe it's because so many of us deep inside want to do that too, or wish we could have done that, or, love that idea of dressing up. And so I'm curious, both, where do you get your clothes and your costumes for drag? But also, what do you think about when you're putting together your look for a particular performance? Like, how do you think about that? 

JD: Well, I would say, first of all, where I get most of my stuff is honestly, online. As a performer that is a bit bigger, I have broader shoulders, I don't fit into most traditional women's clothing, I will say. I have to order stuff that's more specially made for drag performers. There's a few websites, there's one called Coquetryclothing.com that I've gone to. I don't know if you've ever heard of Fashion Nova, that's like a fast fashion brand. Oh, what I usually do is I start with, like, a base piece, like, something that I can buy online that's more simple. And then I elaborate on it. I embellish it, or add stones to it, or modify it in some way to make it campier or more drag. And so I think that that's probably the experience of a lot of people. For me, I've never had a large budget to buy more elaborate drag pieces, which you can. There are people that get custom designs that are crazy expensive. So I've always had to kind of improvise and create my own. Which I think that's kind of the root of drag. That's where it comes from, is like, do it yourself. You know? It's like, create your own look. And I would say, as far as, like, what inspires me, or what I think of when I'm getting ready for a look is, I always try to think, what's the most direct way I can communicate with how I look, what it is I'm trying to perform. And so if that's, like, something which it usually is, something funny or silly, I try to make my look match that. I think for me, being goofy and turning things on its head is, like, where I find the most interest, where I think I gravitate towards. So usually that's it. It's something silly. That's always the impetus for a drag look for me. 

SARA: Do you have a particular look you're working on in this moment right now? 

JD: I am currently preparing for – I'm producing my first show in Salt Lake City, November 28th. And so, for this show, I'm working on a Britney Spears look. So I'm trying to decide what the most iconic, and also kind of the silliest Britney Spears look is. Yeah, so that's where my head's at right now. 

SARA: Oh, I look forward to the Instagram posts when that is ready. Drag queens are really getting a lot more media attention these days, mainline media attention in particular, and doing some really extraordinary work. There are more than just RuPaul, who I think was, for a long time, like, the one and only representative. And perhaps with Drag Race, that's helped a little bit. Are there drag queens or drag artists that you follow, who you really admire? 

JD: Oh, yeah, so many. So many locally, and then also so many that have larger platforms. I would say locally in Salt Lake, there's a queen called Veronika DaVil. She does a lot of activist work, and she's also just really funny and talented. So I really enjoy her. Drag Race is on a more national level. Yeah, there's so many. I feel like my original inspiration when I started really getting into performing, her name is Alaska. She won Drag Race. I can't remember which season. I think All-Stars 2, or something like that. Anyway, she is incredible, and she is a performer that makes an impact outside of the performance space outside of the club or the venue. She does work for charity, and she does a lot of fundraising efforts. And she also has used her platform in other ways that expand beyond traditional drag. That is what I hope to do with my work, is to find ways to sort of branch out from what we traditionally think of as stage performance and into different aspects of society. 

SARA: I'm aware that more and more drag artists like yourself are getting involved in more advocacy and justice, and trying to use drag to help teach us about justice and resistance. Talk a little bit about that. What can drag teach us about that? 

JD: I think in this moment, especially where we're at right now, where it feels like the tide has turned against queer culture in general, is I think, maybe the pendulum has swung in the other direction now. For a long time, it felt like there was no ceiling, like it was expanding so far which is great. But now we're seeing a little bit of a contraction of that. I think probably with the current administration, that's a huge part of it. But also, it feels like Conservatism is a bigger part of the zeitgeist right now. It's a bigger part of our lives. So I feel like that makes drag, right now, more important than it has ever been to stand up and to say the things that you want to say, to express yourself in the most authentic way you can, because I think sometimes what can happen is people get afraid. They start to minimize, or they start to shrink because we're afraid that we could be penalized for being so flamboyant. But I think we have to do the opposite. We have to be louder, and we have to be more flamboyant and be more unafraid to be yourself. Because I think that's the way that you can fight it, that you can fight that backlash, is to be unapologetically yourself, even more so now. And I think that what that can teach us is that you have more power than you think you do, just by being yourself. That can be the thing that could change somebody's mind. Or that could be the thing that changes society, somehow. I think with drag, it's, like, the most extreme, or it can be like an extreme version of yourself. But it can also be exactly who you are. 

SARA: That's really beautiful. I want to come back to parenting for a moment, because you did mention the way in which the backlash in this time increases fear. And I know it increases fear for a lot of parents as well. What would you say to parents, or what advice would you have for parents, just in terms of how to support our queer and trans kids, just in general? 

JD: In general, I think a big part of it is don't be afraid to learn with them. Don't be afraid to not know the answer. I think being, like I said previously, being curious and being open is so much of the journey to getting there. I think that it's okay to feel uncomfortable, or to feel like you don't necessarily know how to support them. But I just think wanting, the desire to do so is so big, and so much of it. And if I had had that growing up, if I had had parents that were willing to question things with me, or to, like, if everything wasn't so rigid, then it would have been so beneficial to me. So I would say just be open. And if there's things that come up that you're not comfortable with, I guess, try and find a way to see another perspective, if you can. It's not always so simple as, like, going to the Pride Parade with them. Or there isn't always a cut-and-dry answer to how to support your kids. I think it's mostly just, gosh. Just be curious, and want to get to know where they're at, I think. 

SARA: Yeah, I really appreciate the answer you gave about be interested and willing to learn with them, like to get curious about what are their questions, and what do they want to know, and like do some of that exploration and learning together. What a beautiful way to both connect, but also learn together. 

JD: Exactly. 

SARA: I'm gonna take that one with me in particular. That was really helpful. I do a lot of these interviews, and I get a lot of advice. And then that was a really beautiful piece that I haven't really expressed in that way yet, and I really appreciate it. 

JD: I'm glad. 

SARA: If we go back to the pizza question, I'm curious if you've thought about how or if you want to engage in that same way again, like as an experiment? Have you thought about how you might continue that kind of dialogue in places where there's a lot of protest and resistance? 

JD: Absolutely. I think that that's been – since all of this has happened, the biggest question in my mind has been, how do I continue that conversation? I don't think that you can recreate something like that organically. I think that the only way to do it is to just, again, just kind of be curious, and to approach people with an open mindset. And so, yeah, I thought about it a lot. I think – I moved to Salt Lake recently, and so I've been sort of establishing myself. But what I want to do, my long-term goal is to find a way to, like, have more of these conversations with people that you wouldn't expect, or to try and find someone who, on the surface, we'd be obviously very ideologically different from each other. But trying to find a way to connect with them. And I don't know what that looks like yet. I've thought about doing a podcast. I love the work that you do. I just don't know where to start with that. It's in my mind, and I'm open to seeing what happens. But yeah, I want to do it somehow. Some way. 

SARA: Have you been aware or been met with similar kinds of protest and resistance since you've moved to Salt Lake? 

JD: Not in the same way. I haven't been out as much in those kind of scenarios since then. I went to Sandpoint, Idaho, for Pride after all that happened in July. I was invited to go perform up there. And there was one instance up there that was a little – I was prepared when I went to Sandpoint to be, I think, scared, to feel uncomfortable because of the things I've heard about Sandpoint. But I was surprised at how it was actually quite the opposite. I felt so much love and so much acceptance up there. I think that was really, really a happy surprise for me to go up there, because I was expecting the opposite. I went up there expecting to do more interviews and to be more, like to be scared, like I said. The one thing that did happen afterward, I recorded. There was a smaller reaction. I went to the Heterosexual Awesome Fest in Boise, Idaho. I went there a few weeks later. 

SARA: Say a little bit for our listeners. Give us some context for that. 

JD: Sure. So there was this festival in Boise, Idaho earlier this year. I think it was in July, or it was late June, called the Heterosexual Awesome Fest. It was organized by the owner of a bar in Boise who's extremely conservative. And the goal was, I guess, for them to celebrate how awesome it is to be heterosexual. Which is great, I guess, on its face, but it also, I think what happened was it was more of a meeting place for people to have pretty extreme views, pretty, I would say, racist and bigoted views. It was more about that kind of thing ended up being, and it was also extremely poorly attended. So it didn't end up being really anything that they had said it was going to be. But I went there against the advice of a lot of people. I went there in drag because I was, again, I was curious to see if I could engage with people. Clearly, that's a place where I was probably going to find a lot of opposition. And they wouldn't even let me in. So I tried to go, and a guy right at the entrance to the park said no. He said it was a private event. But yeah, I still had kind of a funny interaction with him. 

SARA: I know, that was so wild to me. I was like, wait, wasn't that a public event . . . 

JD: Yeah, that's why I was confused. 

SARA: … at a park. 

JD: And a lot of people have said since, like I think that they probably weren't allowed to… to… to keep me out. But I wasn't going to argue. 

SARA: Well, fair enough. But yeah, that was such a weird, weird thing, that festival, and so thanks! Thanks for trying to tip them off of their game a little bit there. I thought that was very brave. 

JD: Yeah. That's what I'm going to keep trying to do, I guess. 

SARA: Well, particularly because those particular actors are known for some really serious hate and some really violent views, and so that took a lot of courage. But also, I did watch that video. I will invite others to watch it, because it made me laugh, it was delightful to just kind of watch the hypocrisy. I mean, you're exposing some really interesting hypocrisy in that. And your ability to stay happy and delighted and positive and in character is, I think a real testament, but also a real reminder to all of us that we don't have to react with anger and defensiveness. There's another way. Thank you for that. 

JD: I appreciate that. 

SARA: Is there anything else that you want to share about yourself about drag and talk to our audience of parents? 

JD: If I could, maybe just one final thing that I would say is to any parents that maybe, have questions about Drag specifically, about queer culture at large, if you feel scared of it, or if you're uncomfortable with it. I would say the best thing you could do to – if you're interested in learning more, or if you're open to learning more, but you're, like I said, you're scared, is to just go to a show. Go to one show by yourself. It doesn't have to involve your children, you can go on your own. Go and see what it's like. I think that what I've learned from audience members coming up to me, people that they say it was their first show, and they, they were not comfortable. But seeing what it is in person, speaking to performers, watching them perform, having interactions, I think it can be the thing that changes you. It can change you for good. And it might be uncomfortable. It might make you feel weird. It might not feel natural to you. And it might feel like – you might not even enjoy it. You might not enjoy the performance, but I think that seeing people as humans is the most important thing that we can do, especially in this moment. I think social media and the political climate, it can be so easy to dehumanize others, and to see them as less than, or to see them as scary, or as something to fear. And I think having genuine in-person interactions with people can be the thing that shows you that it's not that scary. To bring it back to this interaction I had at Canyon County Pride, that person, that protester, Paul, I think with no ego, I can say his perspective shifted somehow in that moment. He's reached out to me outside of all this. Later on, he reached out to me. He emailed me, and he wanted to go and have pizza. But I had left by that point, I was gone, so I haven't had a chance to meet up with him again. But I would say I saw, I think I have seen since that his mind was somehow changed, and maybe not, maybe a small degree. But that's something. That's a shift. And I think that that could be something that everyone can experience to a degree. If you just go and find something that scares you a little bit, like if it's drag. There's so many ways that you can challenge yourself, and it can help you grow. 

SARA: I love that. I appreciate that so much. That's such a beautiful way to close out this conversation together, brought it full circle back to pizza. I'd also say don't be afraid to ask people what their favorite topping of pizza is . . . 

JD: Please! 

SARA: . . . even people that you might ignore and walk down the street. 

JD: That's the most important question you can ask. 

SARA: The most important question you could ask, the most important question. Well, you know I think about it, because A, it makes me smile and because I think, gosh, at the end of the day, does all this other stuff we're yelling about, like, it matters – it does matter, I want to say it matters because it is threatening the very existence of our beloved people. The arguments themselves. . .

JD: Doesn't matter. 

SARA: . . . They're fluff. They don't matter. What you helped me understand is, like, hey, maybe who we are as people, and what we like, and what we don't like, is what matters. 

JD: That's what actually matters, yeah. I mean, who you are matters more than the things you fear. 

SARA: Thank you. I do have final questions for you. We have a set of final questions we'd like to ask all of our guests at the end of every episode. So, before I let you go and officially close down this conversation, the first question has to do with the Mama Dragons name, And so, Mama Dragons came out of a sense of fierceness and fierce protection for our kids. And so we like to ask our guests, what is it you are fierce about? 

JD: Oh my goodness, that is a great question. I feel, in this moment, like I am fierce about – and this sounds maybe cliché – I'm fierce about civil rights. I think that we're in a moment in our country's history, in civilization's history, where we're kind of on the precipice of maybe losing our humanity a little bit. And that's so scary to me. And I think that the point of the work I'm trying to do can seem trivial, but I think my main goal is to find a way to combat that, to bring us back to ourselves a little bit. To see other people as human, and to see them as deserving of rights. 

SARA: Thank you. I love that, and as a drag artist, and doing that in drag, you're reminding us that that can be done in a joyful way. 

JD: Yeah. 

SARA: And so, my final question to you is, what is bringing you joy right now, recognizing that also in these times it's important to be cultivating as much joy as we can. 

JD: So maybe this is silly, but Lily Allen released a new record recently, and I have been obsessed with it. And it brings me joy very much. I've just been listening to it on repeat. Music, I'll say, like, more broadly, music saves me, every day. That's like, for me, that's life. 

SARA: I love it, and not silly at all. I think the beauty of this question is that when we get to hear really cool, specific answers from people, it helps us know a little bit more about you, but also we get some really cool things to go look up and discover for ourselves, so thank you for bringing that artist to our attention. JD, Cookie Puss, thank you. This has been a beautiful conversation. Thank you for all that you do, and all of the joy, and all of the fierceness that you bring to the world, and you bring to this work. I just can't tell you how important it is, but also how beautiful and valuable it is. 

JD: I appreciate you so much. Thank you very much for having me. This has been very special. Thank you.

SARA: Thank you so much for joining us here In the Den. Did you know that Mama Dragons offers an eLearning program called Parachute? This is an interactive learning platform where you can learn more about how to affirm, support, and celebrate the LGBTQ+ people in your life. Learn more at Mamadragons.org/parachute or find the link in the episode show notes under links.

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