BAGLY: The LGBTQ+ Youth-Led Boston Alliance

Life and parenting often feels so fraught, so overwhelming, and so frustrating. We’re navigating unprecedented attacks on queer and trans folks and youth. Of course, as parents, we stay vigilant, trying to anticipate what might come next so we can support and protect our kids. But even as we hunt for answers to all our practical questions, we still need something else to keep us going: sources of hope, grounding, and inspiration. Today, we get to offer you just that through the incredible work of BAGLY, the Boston Alliance of LGBTQ+ Youth—a youth-led, adult-supported organization that has spent nearly fifty years building safe spaces, affirming identities, and lifting up queer and trans young people. For half a century, BAGLY has been a beacon of belonging, envisioning a future where LGBTQ+ youth not only survive, but shine, shaping Boston and far beyond

Special Guest: Elliott-Timothy Viridian

Elliott-Timothy Viridian is an educator, writer, poet, and essayist from the greater US South. Viridian has written extensively about his upbringing, black feminist politics, and black masculinities within and around the Southern Black tradition. Viridian has spoken and continues to speak across the country on queer issues & rights.

Special Guest: Evander Ragsdale

Evander Ragsdale (he/they) is a freshman at Skidmore College studying English. He has been with BAGLY for over a year and spends his free time writing and playing ultimate frisbee.

Special Guest: Kris Cho

Kris Cho (any/all) is a queer Korean American poet and educator hailing from Mid-Missouri. They currently work at BAGLY as the Youth Leadership and Advocacy Coordinator. Prior to BAGLY, Kris worked as a Bargaining and Campaign Strategy Coordinator for the Massachusetts Teachers Association and a Slam Poetry Coach at John D. O'Bryant School for Mathematics and Science, where they are currently a poet-in-residence. They are a 2023 Best of the Net nominee, a 2024 RWW Poetry Fellow, and 2025 Periplus Fellow. Their debut chapbook Chosun Cowboy (Abode Press) will be published in 2026.

Links from the Show: 

• Bagly website
• Join Mama Dragons today

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Transcript

SARA: Hi everyone. Welcome to In the Den with Mama Dragons. A podcast and community to support, educate, and empower parents on the journey of raising happy and healthy LGBTQ+ humans. I’m your host, Sara LaWall. I’m a Mama Dragon myself and an advocate for our queer community. And I’m so glad to be part of this wild and wonderful parenting journey with all of you. Thanks for joining us. We’re so glad you’re here. 

Hello, Mama Dragons. These days, life and especially parenting, feels so fraught, so overwhelming, so frustrating. We're navigating unprecedented attacks on queer and trans folks and youth. And of course as parents, we stay vigilant, trying to anticipate what might come next so we can support and protect our kids. But even as we hunt for answers to all those niggling practical questions and wonderings about what the future will hold, we still need something else to keep us going. We need sources of hope and inspiration. Today, we get to offer you just that through the incredible work of BAGLY, the Boston Alliance of LGBTQ+ Youth. They are a youth-led, adult-supported organization that has spent nearly 50 years building safe spaces, affirming identities, and lifting up queer and trans young people. For half a century, BAGLY has been a beacon of belonging. Envisioning a future where LGBTQ+ youth not only survive, but shine, shaping Boston and far beyond. BAGLY's programs invite youth to choose their own adventure. Whether that’s accessing health and wellness information and care, mental health support, housing stabilization, and so much more. They're an organization rooted in possibility and resilience and in the belief that young people are not just the future, they're leading us right now. 

So I'm so excited to introduce to you today, Kris Cho, BAGLY’s Youth Leadership & Advocacy Program Coordinator, and two youth leaders, Elliot Veridian and Evander Ragsdell. All of you, welcome to In the Den. It is so good to have you with us. 

EVANDER: Thank you. 

KRIS: Thank you so much! 

SARA: Kris, I want to start with you. I'm curious if you'll share with us a little bit of the BAGLY origin story. An organization that's been around for nearly 50 years is really impressive, so we're curious to know what was happening that spurred the creation of the organization? And how has the mission evolved in the last 50 years? 

KRIS: That's a wonderful question, and one of the reasons why I came to BAGLY was because of its storied history. BAGLY started in the 1980s during the AIDS crisis. So this is at a time when the community was undergoing a lot of pain, but also a lot of organizing and community building. There were other organizations at the time, I believe, who also served LGBTQ+ youth in the area but weren't as responsive to youth needs and wants and direction as some young folks desired. So from that, BAGLY was born. Ever since, BAGLY has been a youth-led adult-supported, as we like to say, organization. I think one of my favorite moments from BAGLY history is that prior to the advent of the internet, folks would go to the Boston Public Library and find queer canon books and put them in little slips of paper saying, “Hey, are you queer? Call this number. Come visit us.” 

SARA: Wow, that is brilliant! I love that story. 

KRIS: Yeah, it's one of the first things that I learned when I got here. 

SARA: That's great, thank you for that. That's a beautiful origin story. Evander, I’m going to toss it to you now and would love to hear how you got involved with BAGLY, how long you've been there. But then also I want to ask both of you, what does it mean in practice for an organization to be youth-led? How does that play out in your experience? 

EVANDER: Well, I got involved in BAGLY about a year and a half ago in May of 2024, so just before Pride season. And I had learned from my GSA about the, I forget what it was called, but some large Transgender event, which was just my thing. And I wasn't able to go to that, but in looking into it, I signed up for the BAGLY emails. This event was hosted by BAGLY. And then I got an email, like, “We're looking for speakers, for young people to get involved in our Speakers Bureau.” And I was like, well, I love speaking and performing and things like that. And I am queer and I feel passionately about queer advocacy. So I did the training, and I've been a Member of the Speakers Bureau since. 

SARA: And so, as a member of the Speakers Bureau, tell us about some of the engagements. Where are you going? What are you being asked to speak about? 

EVANDER: Yeah, so my very first engagement was at a small church. And that was, they were holding a Pride event for just like queer people to go and tell a story. So I told a story about the meeting and falling in love with my then-girlfriend. And I've done one where I watched a musical being put on by a theater in Boston, The Prom, if you're familiar with it, it's a gay musical. 

SARA: Love it. 

EVANDER: And then participated in a talkback after. And I'm doing something similar for the musical Fun Home in a week or so. And I've given speeches before, too. That, that sort of thing. 

SARA: That's great, that's great. Elliot, how about you? How long have you been with BAGLY? And can you share with us a little bit about what is the experience like? What does it mean to be youth-led? 

ELLIOT: Yeah. So I joined BAGLY about 2 years ago as well. I was definitely a bit different. I grew up in Georgia. So I only came up here for college. I was about 2 years in, in college, I would say, maybe 3 years. That was 3 months, 3 years on testosterone. And a major event happened, and I was so like, ”I should probably do something fun. I should get a hobby.” And I remember my partner was saying how I am a secret chatter. And they're like, “You should do Speakers Bureau.” Because I love to act like I don't like to talk, and then I would go somewhere and be like, “Let me tell you a story.” So I joined BAGLY. And when I joined BAGLY, and I did the Speakers Bureau training, I took on as many speaking engagements as I could my first year. I did 23 last year. So I went to churches. I talked to health professionals. I went to schools, I got to talk to teenagers, got to talk to parents. Oh my god, the parent ones were my favorite ones. And because it's youth-led, how it works is we get to pick our speaking engagements. So you can choose the ones that you're specifically are interested in. We're not forced to go to anyone's. You only have to attend at least one event. I'll say I did too much. I did a lot of events. But because we're youth-led, I felt like that was a great opportunity for me to talk to a lot of different groups of people. And it helps hearing it from – I don't know how much youth I have in me, this is my last year, I'm 24 – I think I'm the oldest in the Speakers Bureau this year. But it does help hearing someone who is younger than you tell you about their experiences, especially when they're so different than, I would say, the Boston experience of queerness and queer youth or the northern experience. 

SARA: Well, Elliot, I want to hear more about these parent groups that you spoke to, that you said that were some of your favorites and very interesting. You know, our Mama Dragons community, we are the parents. 

ELLIOT: Yeah. 

SARA: And I'm curious if you'll share a little bit about who were you speaking to? What were they inviting you to talk about? But then also I'm really curious, what did those parents ask you? Do you remember any of those questions? 

ELLIOT: A lot of inappropriate questions. And honestly, I think those are my favorite questions. You know, they tell us in Speakers Bureau we only have to answer the questions we're comfortable with. I purposely ignored that because I think the best questions – before I came up here, I taught queer sex ed to parents in a church basement as a senior in high school. And a lot of that was parents who were really, really afraid of what could happen to their child versus whatever identity that was associated with their child. So I had a lot of parents who were like, they weren't so upset that their child was gay or trans, whatever. They were more concerned about what the world would do to them, especially post Matthew Shepard, post Brandon Teena. And these are the big cases, because this is what the parents saw, right? Boys Don't Cry with Hilary Swank, I think that's her name. The Matthew Shepard story, these are the big ones, right? And I worked primarily with parents of color in the South. So coming up north, and working with a lot of, I'd say white parents, a lot of white parents, a lot of older parents who are just really, really concerned, concerned, concerned, and asking these crazy questions like, :Have you had bottom surgery? Have you had top surgery? What's testosterone like? Well, like, when was the process of changing your name? What do your parents think about this?” And I think those questions and talking to those parents who were so nervous really put them in a better place to hear someone say, “This is crazy, what you're asking, but I will answer it because you want to know. And wanting to know is honestly the first step in anything.” 

SARA: That is so fabulous. Thank you for sharing that with us. I love that. And I know there are still a lot of parents on the spectrum of their own timeline, right? Some parents who are very new in this world whose kids have just come out. And some parents who've been at this a really long time. And we all have different needs and questions at different periods in our parenting journey. So I appreciate hearing what parents are curious about. And I'm not surprised that there's some inappropriate questions that come along with that curiosity. Evander, for parents who are listening, what can we learn from the model that BAGLY uses that really is about trusting and empowering young people? What can parents take away from that? 

EVANDER: That's a good question. I would say a lot. I'm going to start off with one of my personal opinions, which is that children are an oppressed class. They very much have very, very little agency, aside from what their parents choose to give them. And I think a big part of BAGLY is giving youth access to that agency. I mean, I started at BAGLY when I was 16, so I was a minor. And actually, I think I was, like, a week away from being 17, but still. And I think BAGLY gives kids and youth the opportunity to be mature and to do mature things in a world that doesn't always let that happen. There aren't a lot of avenues for youth advocacy out there. And I mean, I'm talking from my own personal experience, but being able to do that as a minor was very important to me and very formative for me. 

SARA: That's such a great point. I appreciate that so much. Kris, I'm curious to hear from you if you can share with us a little bit about the mechanisms and the organization. How do young people shape the decision-making at BAGLY? And what does leadership, and your leadership programs are really central to your model. Talk a little bit about that. 

KRIS: I'm so glad you brought that up, Sarah. Right now actually downstairs, our Youth Leadership Committee is having a meeting. And it's something that's always really exciting to see and be a part of and help develop. Our co-chairs are members of the board. And so they get to be part of and included into those higher-up broad, stretching, decisions and discussions about BAGLY. In addition to that, the YLC's main, sort of, aim is to determine the social programming and generally programming that happens here at BAGLY. And so what we do as adults is help keep time. We help buy the food. We help provide transportation. And the rest of it is them. It's really exciting to see folks get to take their own experiences as young people and as young queer and trans people and put them into action here. And the things that they come up with, the people and the cogs and machine here at BAGLY that are adult staff, are just here to keep on turning those wheels, to turn those things into reality, is something that I think is really exciting. 

SARA: So what kinds of ideas and programs or needs are they bringing forth? 

KRIS: Yeah. So we have a long-standing program of identity-based discussion groups or activity groups particularly focused on building community. So we have a meeting called Girl Talk, which is our trans fem-aligned meeting. We have a very popular trans non-binary meeting. There has recently been an uptick in more activity-based groups. And so we have like an arts corner that's going to be happening, sort of like a makerspace. Additionally, we're going to be starting up open mics soon, fingers crossed. But in addition to that, there is also work being done on, how can we do youth organizing in a more explicitly political sense? There's been a lot of talk and desire from young folks to do something in a world where things seem bleak. And in a place like BAGLY, that has the history, has the status of a well-established nonprofit here in Boston, we can take the feeling of not being able to do anything against this giant machine of the world and provide a little bit of backing. So we can get stuff done. 

SARA: That's wonderful. I want to hang on to this thread of this political moment and talk a little bit more about that. And I want to hear from each of you, Elliot and Evander, what, based on your particular experiences in life and with the people that you are with, with the other people that you are with in your world, what is it that you are noticing that young people need most in this political moment? Elliot, how about we start with you? 

ELLIOT: Because I am one of the oldest people in Speakers Bureau, I also have a full-time job. Like, I work as an educator. And I am in contact with youth that are younger than me all of the time. So all the way down from Pre-K through 12th grade every single day. 

SARA: So you are uniquely qualified to answer this question. . . 

ELLIOT: Yes. 

SARA: . . . on behalf of a broad spectrum of people. 

ELLIOT: Yeah. And I think one of the things that I see most frequently is there's a lot of desire from youth to want to do things. But the how-to is kind of lost within the bigger world of social media. There's this idea of “socially perfect” that a lot of youth are aspiring to be, right? So, like, you have this track record of being such a good person, good person, good person, and if you have this mistake, you're done for, you can no longer do any of the work. And I think a lot of it comes from not meeting in person. There's a lot of times where I've seen youth who want to be together, right, but they don't have the physical space to be together. They only see each other at school, or they only see each other online, or they only see each other in this specific scenario. And I think a lot of youth, they really desire to gather with each other and build community offline to set off that fear of not being a perfect person because once you're in front of people, and once you're talking to people, you notice that nobody is a perfect person. And that pressure to be one just slides off a lot more. And the feeling that you have when you get work done with these other non-perfect people, it's just, it just feels so much better. 

SARA: Yes. Thank you for that reminder. I think so many of us are noticing that and feeling that in this moment. Evander, how about you? What are you noticing that young people need most in this political climate? 

EVANDER: Hormones, as a basic answer. 

SARA: Fair. 

EVANDER: As someone who's in the freshman year of college, my classmates and stuff have recently left our childhood homes, and we're on our own. It's like that's kind of the big thing for a lot of the trans people that I know right now, and figuring out where we can get them and how to access it. And also a lot of dealing with parents about it. So I think parent education groups like yours and organizations like PFLAG are very, very important to helping young folks. And I also think, this one from my experience, I work as a counselor at a summer camp over the summer. Just seeing other queer people being out and am proud just being there. I know summer camp was very formative for me as a queer person. And seeing the counselor Frank, just going around being a trans man, was very inspiring for me. And I am trying to be that person for the younger kids. But also, I still appreciated it when I see that person in the world. 

SARA: That's a beautiful answer, thank you. And when you were talking about hormones and parents, I'm curious if part of what you're noticing is that conflict that can arise for some young people when they turn 18 and now have the agency over their own healthcare and want to start getting these medical interventions and hormones. And parents are still a little bit reticent, or a lot resistant. And that must be a really challenging space for folks. 

EVANDER: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I will preface this by saying that my parents are generally pretty good about stuff. And well, they didn't let me get hormones while I was a minor. They are very much, like, “Once you're 18, you can do whatever you want.” As you can see by my face, I know listeners can't see, but I have an eyebrow piercing, a septum piercing, and a lip piercing. But I will be getting a tattoo soon, probably. It’s not a tattoo, just drawings. So my parents have always been very, ”Once you're 18, your body's your own and you can do what you want with it.” And that includes hormones, which is something that I'm working on right now. But I have friends whose parents aren't like that, who maybe they've even been out for years, but their parents don't know that they want hormones, or that they want to talk to them about it. I have friends who don't know how their parents would react to them coming home with a deeper voice, or with body changes like that, that are opposite of what they expect from them. Even my friends who've been out for a long time, to a lot of parents, the concept of you permanently changing your body like that is still very, very alarming.  

SARA: So, I wonder if you'll speak to the parents, to us for a moment directly. What wisdom do you have? What advice do you have for us? Talk to us about how to navigate that space, how you would want us to navigate that space. 

EVANDER: I think, well first of all, the biggest thing is to recognize that once your child turns 18, their body is their own. And they should be allowed to make the choices that make them feel the most happy and comfortable in their body even if you don't directly agree with those choices. And also that your kids might need support as well when they go through that type of stuff, especially when it comes to surgeries, that requires a lot of recovery time. And I think being someone that your child can rely on, whether you agree with their choices or not, I think being there for them and supporting them in what they're going to do with their body is very important. 

SARA: Thank you. Thank you for being real and honest with parents, with all of us. I think those are really, really important messages for us to hear right now. And even for those parents who are supportive, I think we can get lost in the political climate and in the fear of what all that is happening right now, and kind of forget that need to stay that connected one-on-one with our kids, at any age. Elliot, how about you? Do you have some direct advice for parents? And what was it like for you, coming out into your own family and navigating that space? 

ELLIOT: I actually didn't get a chance to come out. What happened with me was I started testosterone the second day after I got to college. I got to college August of 2020, so we all had no roommates, our own rooms. And the day that I started college, I'm pretty sure I shaved my head. But I think I was just going stir-crazy at some point. And then the week after, I started testosterone. I started with Planned Parenthood in Massachusetts. And so that first Christmas of 2020, my first Christmas home, right before I was about 4 months on testosterone, I shaved my face. My voice was still high enough to where I didn't have to say anything. I just sounded a little sick. And I hoped for the best. And Christmas went fine. But that was my last Christmas home. That spring, I was actually in my dorm room, hanging out, so when my phone started blowing up, blowing up, blowing up, and it was my sister texting this family group checks. I guess someone told her something and she just decided to make it a public thing, right? So I didn't even get a chance to tell anyone. It was more of a conversation on if I was on drugs. There was a lot of talk about me being a junkie, or me being a drug addict, because I was on testosterone. And I never got to go home after that, so Christmas of 2020 is the last time that I saw any of my family members. I haven't seen any of my siblings. I didn't see my dad since I was 16, but I didn't get to see my mom anymore. They gave my room to a family dog that they got. They went on family vacations and everything. And so every year around Christmas, I would get really, really upset. It wouldn't really hit me until Christmas time. And me and my mother were never really close, but our birthdays were three days apart. We were the same sign. We acted the same way. We’re the same type of stubborn. And so we were born in the Twin Cities. My mom was born in one city in Minnesota. I was born in the Twin City in Minnesota. So we always had somewhat of a, maybe not close, but a symbiotic relationship. And then it just fell apart. And so, you know, every year around Christmas, I would just fall apart, fall apart, fall apart, and I think now is the fifth year I haven't been home, and this is the first Christmas where I can't remember what she looks like. Right? I can't remember how she smells, I can't remember any of her recipes, I can't remember anything about her, right? And so I think one thing that I really would stress to parents, right? I think at this point in my life, I think I would give anything to remember anything about her. And I throw a Christmas party every year for just me and my friends. And I do all these things. But I would love to remember her favorite color. And so when parents are thinking about their children, you know, and the life they want their children to have, I think it's easy to get caught up in, you know, “This isn't what I imagined for my child.” I know what my mom imagined for me, and she imagined a great life. She wanted me to go to Brown. She was okay with me dating women. But she wanted me to marry a really tall woman. Don't know why, I was a really tall woman. But, you know, she had this picture, right? And I wish that she could have seen the life that I built that wasn't her picture, right? I'm not the richest, but I get to be a teacher, and I love being a teacher. I'm going back to school for special education. I'm about to marry a woman that I love. I love her. And she has all these amazing things about her, and loves art, and loves kids, and I wish that she could imagine some type of future that wasn't her own version of that future. And so when parents are thinking about their child, I want them to think a little bit outside of themselves and the future they imagine. And think of more possibilities that could arise, more happier versions of their child because I've never been happier. No matter, you know, there's things that I wish I could have had more of. But I've never been happier than where I am now and I just would love for other parents to experience that, and be able to experience that happiness with their child. 

SARA: Thank you for sharing that story with us, and I'm really sorry. That is a really hard story to hear as a parent. And I appreciate your vulnerability. And I think I also want to reiterate to our audience the last part of what you just said, that you are the happiest you've ever been. And how much I know deep down in every parent's heart, that is what we want for our kids. And sometimes we can't quite picture it, or we have a different version of what it looks like. But I know that all of us really, deep down, want to hear those words from our own kids. And so, I am personally delighted to hear that you are the happiest you've ever been, and living and building a life that is beautiful and rich and fun and fulfilling. Kris, I want to kick it over to you for a moment, a little bit of a diversion here. I really appreciate that parenting conversation, and I think we'll probably circle back to it. But I also want to hear a little bit more about the scope of the programs that BAGLY offers. 

KRIS: Sure. Thank you for sharing, Elliot. That was, a story definitely hit home. Our programming is pretty diverse, as you mentioned at the beginning of the podcast. We have a sort of three-pronged approach to how we serve the community. The first is Health and Wellness, which is Take Care. So we have a STI testing clinic that is free and anonymous and open for folks up to age 29. We also have a series of peer interns who do peer education, doing healthcare navigation assistance, a lot of it is folks who are younger, but also are maybe interested in pursuing a career in the medical field. So, that is Health and Wellness. Our second branch is Take Agency, which is our stabilization and support prong. This includes our direct aid program. This also includes part of our supplies closet. This is a closet that is open for anybody who comes into our community center. And we bring in folks up to age 25. And this closet includes basic hygiene products, underwear, bedding, sunscreen, toiletries. We also have a gender-affirming wear closet which was recently organized and is in very neat little tubs. If our Speakers Bureau folks haven't seen it yet, I highly recommend. It looks fantastic. But we have entire cabinets full of upper-wear and lower-wear for folks of all shapes and walks of life. Again, anyone who can come into our community center, so under the age of 25, are open to just come in, don't have to make an appointment, try on different pieces, and can walk home with anything they'd like. We also have the BAGLY Boutique, which is a little setup of a couple racks of clothes that are quite fashionable, if I do say so myself. There's a really fun pink neon sign that says, BAGLY Boutique in the back. It's very nicely decorated with a fun mirror surrounded by vines. And so, that is also part of our stabilization and support program. And then lastly which is my program, is the Youth Leadership and Advocacy Prong, or the Take Action. Take Action is a variety of things. It is a youth leadership committee which, as I mentioned before, is sort of our central group to how BAGLY does programming as well as other departments within BAGLY will often consult with the YLC depending on large actions that they want to take or branding decisions related to BAGLY. We also are part of a coalition that puts on the Trans Youth Summit, which Evander, I think, is the event that you mentioned earlier. 

EVANDER: Yes. That is correct. 

KRIS: So, that's also happening again this year. Planning committee is already meeting, and things are gearing up for that, which will be happening, I believe, in late winter. And that's a statewide summit for trans folks to come through, have discussions about being young and trans in the state of Massachusetts, fittings for gender-affirming wear. I haven't actually been to one yet, so this will be my first. And then we also have the Queer Activist College, or QAC for short. So we have a lot of branding for that that's like little ducks. Youth have drawn many a fun duck, saying quack and holding little protest signs. But that is a series of workshops that span back to at least the 2000s. There are actually some vintage, I guess, course catalogs that I have on my desk. I don't know if they'll show up, that include various workshops on protest safety or gender politics, the history of feminism. Our event planner intern right now is working on a course around the queer history of Boston. And so it's a really great place and way for folks to engage in some political education, do some research of the area, build community, and build power together. 

SARA: That’s amazing. And everything that you are describing seems to fit really beautifully with the way that BAGLY is describing itself as a beacon of belonging. And so Evander, I want to ask you, what does belonging look like and feel like for queer youth today, particularly in the midst of this really hostile political environment?

EVANDER: I'm going to open by saying that I'm at a very liberal liberal arts school. So you kind of assume people are bi until proven otherwise. And that's been pretty good in my experience. And we have a lot of trans and queer people here. And we have a Pride Alliance, and I'm in it. But belonging kind of means that we don't need one. I think this is a place where so many of the people here are queer and trans and everyone kind of accepts each other. There just aren't that many issues surrounding that piece of identity. You don't need to be something in particular to belong. I think that's very important, especially like you said, in this sort of political context, I think having a place where existing, kind of, isn't political, where you're just kind of like, I go to class, and there's 3 other trans people in the class. It's not weird for me to be me here, and I think that's belonging. 

SARA: That's great, thank you. Elliot, I'm going to pass the question to you, too. But thinking in the two spaces, two roles you inhabit as a young adult, you know, a young queer adult, what does belonging look like for you? But also, how would you describe it when you think about the students that you interact with? 

ELLIOT: A lot of it overlaps, I think. I've always said this at every event. I know, um, Lydia, who is the previous coordinator, was tired of me saying it, but I do believe wholeheartedly in forming communities offline. And I think that is where belonging really, really, really means when you can start building those communities. My first event that I really, really loved was my middle school class. We got bused into Georgia, to Atlanta, Georgia. And we got to go to MLK's church. And that was the first time – we were an all Black school – but that was the first time we took a field trip. And it was also the first time that we ever felt like we had a big place in history because a lot of us, we're all African American. Yes, almost everybody in my class is African American. We're descendants of slaves, and we could think about, like we were able to really sit down with the idea that our ancestors, from everywhere, made this history, built this place that was so big and large, and that we were a part of it. And I think that is the same thing as an adult. Right, is as you get older, you start to think you can no longer do anything. You know, your knees ache. You don't feel right saying, “Hey, let's not do this,” But being able to gather as a group to do anything. It may not even be political. The Christmas party, my annual Christmas party, that's my community building for the year, or having a meal, or being able to talk about our lives in a genuine way with other people. I think that is the best thing. And I think for youth, when I see kids, you know, now it's a space where they see me as an adult, as an authority figure who's supposed to protect them from everything, even though you can't. I think that really belonging for them is being able to talk. They love to talk. They never stop talking. But to talk and to be able to be heard in what they're saying and to hear adults acknowledge that they hear them, that they see them. I know a lot of kids, they love this, when I remember their newest obsession, right? And a lot of times it's with gender or sexuality, or who likes who. But it's important to them because this is their whole world. And their world, kindergarten through fifth is, like, the size of a crayon box. But then it gets bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. And they can draw this picture of everything around them. But they're looking for you to help shape that and to say, “Hey, you might want to redraw this, rethink this, redo this.” And I think it's so important to have that community between youth and adults, adults and adults, youth and adults, youth and youth because it's there. It helps so, so much. 

SARA: Thank you for that, and as you were describing this, I was thinking about when we have those in-person communities, we have people and spaces where we know and can feel like we belong, regardless of what is happening in the world around us. Thank you for reminding us how important that is. Kris, I'm going to ask you the same question, in the midst of this work, and in your role, but as also a human in the world, what does belonging look like and feel like for queer youth today?

KRIS: Fantastic question. Trying to think of something that hasn't been covered yet. I think, like Evander said, having a space where you don't have to be so hypervigilant or hyper-focused on this particular thing that makes you feel isolated in a space. I think I remember being a young person and being in a very conservative environment, and always being hyper-aware of there's something inside me that I'm holding deep down inside that I cannot talk about. And it's incredible to be in a space like this, where there is an aspect of levity that can sometimes be taken for granted. But it's something that I remember every time I walk out the door. Also, like Elliot said, having an in-person space, I think having an in-person community is so, so important. And I say this as someone who is an internet aficionado and love studying the internet and thinks meme culture is very important, and organizing online and community spaces online are very, very important. Something cannot replace what you get from being in a space with somebody else and sharing the same air. We are social creatures. And I think, if you want to get down to the brass tacks of it, it's having another human next to you. I think having a space that also proudly celebrates you is really important. I think a lot about student centers that are like queer student centers that are in basements, or on the outskirts of campus. And it's great that they're there. And I'm sure people benefit from them. But I remember touring colleges, and there was one place that had a pride flag hanging out on the main campus. BAGLY's windows are plastered, like huge rainbows that you can see from the street. And once you're in here, it's just so colorful. There are photos of queer and trans people being celebrated on the walls. Our stories are all around us. I think, also like Elliot said, being in a moment of history and understanding that people with our identity are celebrated and are important and are part of a larger tapestry of something. For me and what I've seen and what I've experienced, creates community and creates a sense of belonging. 

SARA: Yes, thank you. Beautiful, beautiful answers. All of you, really wonderful. I want to pick up on the hypervigilance piece for a moment because we're very aware that for queer folks right now, that vigilance is even more heightened than it just is in the existence of being a queer person in the world. So, I'm curious, how do you balance that with hope and joy and possibility? 

KRIS: Great question. Would you like to go first, Elliot? 

ELLIOT: Sure. I'll say I was never really super hypervigilant until about 15. I got my first teacher who was visibly queer. She was a stud from France and she's a Black woman from France. I didn't even know there were Black people in France at that point. I've never met anyone who wasn't from the same town as me. But she's like, “I came here from France just to spend a year to see what this is like.” And I remember her asking me, “What is your name?” And I said my name, and she goes, “You don't even believe it. What is the name you want me to call you?” And that was such a big deal to me. Like I went home and I thought about it. And I came back and I gave her a name. And she recommended the movie Boys Don't Cry to me. I don't think she's ever watched it fully. But she thought it was like this happy representation movie. Right? And I just remember seeing her. And I remember her going, you know, watching this movie and crying. I'm sharing a room with my sister at the time. I watched it underneath my blankets, in a bunk bed with headphones in, silently crying because this is about a transgender man who was murdered. And the first, you know, 30 minutes of the movie you're like, “This is going great!” And then it just goes downhill. And I remember coming back and being so nervous because I was looking him up and researching him, and he died right before his 21st birthday. And I remember being so nervous getting older and older and older because I knew at 20 I could either – and there's statistics on this about how especially for people of color, they either attempt to kill themselves or they're dead by 20. About 50% -- And I lived in Georgia, so the number was even higher around where I lived. And so I was always nervous about turning 20, turning 20, turning 20. And I would get so scared about getting older. Every birthday, I didn't want to celebrate it. Every birthday, my mom – even if she didn't know at this point – my mom would give me this cake that I didn't want, this birthday party that I didn't want, and I would just burst out into tears. And she could never understand why. And then I remember turning 21. And it was like, this weight was lifted off my shoulders, knowing that I could be older. That was the first year that I was older than this man that I’d spent years thinking about, where I could think about him sitting next to me, think about his coffin. Where he died happened to be where my dad grew up in Nebraska. And so there's always – where one of my brothers were born. So there's always this weird connection between us. And I would just worry and worry and worry when the Pulse shooting happened. I was in the airport on my way to Nebraska. When gay marriage was legalized, I was at a WNBA game for Father's Day with my dad. I didn't even know it at the time, but it was Pride Night. And I was just worried about this man I never met, right? So then when I turned 21, I think this hypervigilance about dying kind of faded. And I think when I thought about myself, I always thought about myself as another statistic waiting to happen. And I think when we get past that hypervigilance of death you can start to have – this is going to sound corny – Hypervigilance of joy, right? And I really try to find things that I can be excited about every single day. So I take swim lessons once a week. I can't swim. I take swim lessons once a week, every Tuesday I'm like, “Goodbye, kids, I have to leave. I must swim.” I try to find a new movie, flavor of tea, anything that can make you feel joy in these small little moments instead of this agonizing pain of knowing you could be the next one. And you could be this or that. And so I don't know, that's always how I've felt about hypervigilance, as a young person growing into adulthood. 

SARA: Thank you for that yet another really powerful story. But your willingness to share these deep stories, I think, is insight into the really complicated challenges that come with being a queer person, a queer young person, a queer young person of color. And so I really appreciate that you're being this vulnerable with us. Thank you. But I love also hearing about the joy. And I think that's really important. So Evander, what about you? How do you balance that vigilance that kind of always lives inside with joy and hope and possibility. Where do you find those things? 

EVANDER: That's a good question. I would say, again, on my liberal arts campus, I don't have to be very vigilant here fortunately. But as someone who is generally kind of androgynous, bathrooms, not a big fan because I'm at a point where people might think I'm in the wrong bathroom, whichever one I go in. And I get so much anxiety from going to gendered bathrooms in public. And this is a good story. I was at a friend's acapella concert. Two of my friends, Chloe and JT, two of my closest friends. And it was at an acappella concert. And it was the halftime – the intermission, I'm a sports kid – and I was going to the bathroom and I was like I was in the men's bathroom and I was nervous. And I was going out to wash my hands. And some guy comes out, and he goes to wash his hands next to me, and I'm like, “God, I hope he can't tell that I'm trans.” And then I actually look up, and it's one of my best friend's dads. And I'm like, “Oh, hi, Mr. Trenton.” But it's so easy to get lost in this, like, “I hope that no one can tell at times that it matters, and I hope that everyone's okay with me.” But in the end, and I can't say this for everyone, but I have support. Lots of people have support. And remembering the people that love and care about you, and who you love and care about is the best thing when it comes to this hypervigilance. Like when I visit Florida every year with my family because my grandparents live there. And walking around in Florida also isn't my favorite activity. But I'm always there with my family. And I know that if anything happens, my dad's a large, middle-aged, white guy. Like, I'm going to be fine. And even people who can't say that, just remember who's there for you, and that's the biggest thing. 

SARA: Thank you. That's great. Kris, what about you? What's your answer to this balancing act with making sure that there's joy and hope and possibility alongside the vigilance? 

KRIS: As I was thinking about it, I think my answer has a lot to do with Evander's answer, with community, with love. I think I felt the sort of hypervigilance in my personal experience, ease up when I started having community, having my older sister, who is incredibly supportive, who stepped in when other family members would not. When I have chosen family who invite me and my partner to Thanksgiving. I think, and that's one of the things that is so exciting about BAGLY is that because we are a community, because there are people that I hope folks can rely on and trust and have conversation and be vulnerable with, that a little bit of that hypervigilance is eased if there is a community of care. If there is a world and a space that is open for folks and you don't have to continually watch your back. 

SARA: Yeah, that's great. I want to do one final round with each of you along this same theme because I want to hear just a little bit more about where are you finding joy right now? And to just kind of keep capitalizing on how important it is to cultivate joy, particularly in these times. So, what's bringing you joy? Where are you finding it? Elliot, let's start with you. 

ELLIOT: It's got to be with my partner. I just finished engagement ring shopping. It's not happening for another 2 years, but we've had definite plans on getting engaged. So I've found a ring that I think. I'm meeting her mom next week so we're going to talk more about that and what that looks like next week. But I've found a lot of joy in this life that I'd like to build with them. 

SARA: Wonderful, that's very exciting. Congratulations! 

ELLIOT: Thank you. 

SARA: Evander, how about you? 

EVANDER: I'm also going to give a shoutout to my girlfriend, who, we're almost at 2 months, because I met her at college and I love her a lot. But also my friends back home, we do Jackbox nights often. And I'm on the men's Ultimate Frisbee team here. And I love getting out and having fun with people. I have practice later tonight, actually. And I love writing for my satire newspaper. I'm writing an article about our local live music club. It often has open mic nights, I'm going to lie and say that they have a bragging open mic night for people who just love to talk about themselves. So I love keeping busy. I love doing things. I would say those are my biggest points of joy right now. 

SARA: Thank you. Kris? 

KRIS: The bragging open mic nights are my -- I love talking about myself. But I think stories. I think podcasts like these are really exciting. I love listening to fictional serialized podcasts. I love listening to nonfiction, real life, real humans telling their own stories, podcasts. I love sitting around a fire and hearing my friends talk about what wild things happen in the middle of a lake. I am also a poet. I love going to slams and shouting my heart out. I love movies. I love books. I love stories. I think, especially in this moment, art and poetry and stories are so, so powerful because they inspire joy and feeling and community and belonging. 

SARA: Fantastic. Thank you all. This conversation has given me joy today. 

KRIS: Aw. 

SARA: So I'm really grateful to know about BAGLY, to hear about the work you do, and Evander and Elliot, also just to hear about. your lives and your experience. Thank you for sharing so much with us. It was very meaningful and very insightful. 

ELLIOT: Thank you, thank you for having us. 

EVANDER: Thank you. 

Thank you so much for joining us here In the Den. Did you know that Mama Dragons offers an eLearning program called Parachute? This is an interactive learning platform where you can learn more about how to affirm, support, and celebrate the LGBTQ+ people in your life. Learn more at mamadragons.org/parachute or find the link in the episode show notes under links. 

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