Real Talk with Moms of Trans Kids

Today we’re inviting you to be part of some real talk with moms. Sara is joined In the Den by two other moms of trans kids, Melissa and Sarah, and together the three moms will share with you what’s on their hearts–the fears, the doubts, the anger and the joys–in hopes to offer you all some solidarity and connection. Because we know that being the mom of trans or queer kids right now can be really hard, but none of us are alone in the journey. 

Special Guest: Melissa

Melissa is the mother of two wonderfully brilliant teen daughters. A 16 yo cisgender and 14 yo trans kiddo, currently living in a red state where gender affirming care is banned. Melissa works in healthcare which can be both a blessing and a curse when navigating the systems needed to keep her kids thriving. When not navigating the healthcare system, you can find her roaming the hills behind her home with her two fur babies and finding joy within nature (preferably with a backpack on her back).

Special Guest: Sarah 

Rev. Sarah (she/they) lives with her family in the Southwest where she enjoys hiking and sunsets when she’s not working.  They live in a multi generational household with her mom and 16 old, her spouse and their dog and cat.  Sarah has worked as an organizer, an educator and now as a minister where she does all three!  

Links from the Show:

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Transcript

SARA: Hi everyone. Welcome to In the Den with Mama Dragons. A podcast and community to support, educate, and empower parents on the journey of raising happy and healthy LGBTQ+ humans. I’m your host, Sara LaWall. I’m a Mama Dragon myself and an advocate for our queer community. And I’m so glad to be part of this wild and wonderful parenting journey with all of you. Thanks for joining us. We’re so glad you’re here. 

Hey there, Mama Dragons! This is our last episode of 2025 and what a year it has been. So many of us are just exhausted and overwhelmed and heartbroken by all that has been thrown at us and our kids this year. I hope all of you have had some time to rest and play a bit during this holiday time because we know we need those moments more than ever. And while we know that 2026 will surely demand even more from us, we here at the podcast want you to remember you are not alone. We are in this together. So today, we're inviting you to be a part of some real talk with moms. I'm joined by two moms of trans kids, Melissa and Sarah. And together, the three of us, we're going to share with you what's on our hearts: the fears, the doubts, the anger, also hopefully some joys, in hopes to offer you some solidarity and connection because we all know that being the mom of a trans or queer kid right now can be really, really hard. But this is the heart of who we are, and this is what makes Mama Dragons extraordinary, our connection with and support of each other. And if you read our executive director's December update, you know that in 2026, we will be returning to that heart, focusing more on localized, community-driven connection to deepen support, to build our resilience and strengthen our local networks so that we all can meet the new year with more courage and even more love. So, Melissa and Sarah, welcome to In the Den. Thanks so much for joining me for this Real Talk conversation today. 

MELISSA: Thank you. 

SARAH: Thanks for having us! 

SARA: I really want this to feel like a conversation. I shared this with you two, a little bit. Like, we're sitting in my living room with a cup of tea, just sharing our hearts with each other. So, I thought we'd just start with a check-in. How are you? What's on your heart right now? Sarah, how about you start? 

SARAH: Yeah, so much. How am I? There's so many layered answers to that. In some ways, I'm doing well in ways that I hadn't expected, just from the beginning of the year, how hard it was. So, like, we've come through some very unknown places, and I've ended up in a place at the end of the year where I'm feeling pretty good about the connections and supports we have in our life. So that feels really good. But I'm tired! I'm really tired. And I'm looking forward to some downtime over the holidays. And then I have a little sabbatical coming up, so I’m looking forward to having some time to kind of take stock of what my family needs, what I need, and what the world around me needs, what my community needs, and how I'm going to balance those things, hopefully, in the next year. Looks like it's going to be a hard year.

SARA: Indeed. Yeah, thanks. Melissa, how you doing? 

MELISSA: Ah, good question. I feel similarly, although I don't have maybe a role that holds community. But I feel like the mental load of holding my family together is sufficient weight. I feel at the end of an incredibly challenging year, both personally in our family, as well as, obviously, in our country, state, and navigating the politics and the vitriol. I feel also incredibly accomplished because just navigating the logistics of caring for a trans kid in today's world, it is definitely, heart work – heart work versus hard work – But it often feels very logistically heavy. And that happens to be one of my strengths is, like, the organizing and getting the appointments. But what I'd like to return to is more of the just connection and the day-to-day with both my children as well as community, and a little less of the “task Mom.” That's just where my head went when you said, how are you doing? 

SARA: Amen to the logistics. Man, I tell you, I am like, “Oh my lord, I never thought I'd be making so many doctor's appointments in my whole life.” 

MELISSA: For real. For real. What about you, Sarah, without an H? What's your check-in? 

SARA: Both of what you said resonated with me. I think what's big in my world right now is that we dropped our daughter off at college this fall. So sending her away from home and that happened maybe a week after the whole Charlie Kirk shooting. So I just really felt like I was kind of a emotional mess and wrote some emails to the leaders at the college, and they called me. And I'm sure I must have sounded a little bit crazy, but this community, the podcast community, knows I live in Idaho, and it really is a whole different world here if you don't live here. And so, just that I was just really afraid of backlash and targeting and the mental health of our kids. And I think that coupled with watching my daughter leaving her out of my world was really, really hard. And she had some big struggles this fall, and that has also been really hard. And at the same time with the constant attacks from everywhere, there's also been some beautiful community being built, right? I feel more connected with some parents and more connected with some of the trans community that we're supporting. And that keeps, I think that keeps my heart a little bit, just a little bit held. Thanks for starting there. I think it's helpful. It's always just good to be able to kind of name where we're at in the moment, and in the time of year. And now I want to back up, and I want to invite you two to share a little bit about your parenting journey with your trans kiddo, and your/their coming out story. I think this is always helpful for me to hear parents talk about what it was like, and how it went and how it unfolded. And so I wanted to give you an opportunity to share whatever it is you feel comfortable sharing and whatever your kids have agreed to allow you to share. Melissa, can we start with you? 

MELISSA: Sure, so I'll just start with, I'm a mom of two kiddos, A wonderful 16-year-old cisgender daughter and a 14-year-old trans daughter, as well as the stepmom of a now-29-year-old daughter who does not live in this country. So we don't get to see her as often. But I also am in a red state where gender-affirming care is banned. And, in terms of the coming out and sort of, I sort of backed into recognizing that my state is not an affirming place. As a red state, I just ,there's a lot of assumptions. But I live in a very, kind of small blue dot and felt that LGBTQ community was well represented and didn't kind of have my eyes on what was happening until my child came out to me. So I would say that she is 14, going on 15 now. And we've probably been in this process for about 4 years, sometime after, probably around 10 or 11, she was needing to speak to me every night at bedtime. And just, I think, was processing. And eventually came out, I think this is a very common story. So, she was assigned male at birth. She came out as gay. We are a very affirming family. I let that be known to her and just said, “Okay, great, let's celebrate this.” And she really wanted to kind of sing it from the rafters of her 5th grade class and was maybe a little disappointed she didn't get all the movie image of, like, saying, I am gay, and something happens in the cafeteria. But I think, kids today, they're just totally unfazed. So in 5th grade, they were like, “Okay, you want to go play tag?” And we kind of moved on from that, but over the next year, and maybe it was almost like a year and a half, she started saying, I think this is more of a gender issue and not orientation. And it was one of those things where I was like, “Okay, let's keep that door open.” I realized that I didn't want to pigeonhole her and needed to probably educate myself very quickly on what this might look like. She had a best friend who had been identifying as non-binary, really since kindergarten. And that was probably her first window into gender and recognizing, “Oh, this could be a little bit more fluid.” We went from, “It's a gender issue” to, “I'm not sure, I'd like to maybe use they, them pronouns.” And that transitioned basically into really owning her feminine identity. After maybe a year, year and a half. And at one point was just okay with she, they. So it's kind of like these little baby steps. And we made an appointment locally with a gender clinic. And, within a week of that appointment, our state shut down gender-affirming care. And it was one of those, what what do I do now? And at this point, I just wanted support for her. I wanted to learn about what we could do, and it wasn't until really, I sought out medical care in another state where then the ball got rolling. And it was we sought out care, really, from one of the top reputable research institutes, with a top physician. I just felt like I needed to know that I was getting the best care for her. And we're like, “Okay, we're just going to figure out how to fly to another state.”  And I don't know how to, I'm probably getting into the weeds a little bit, but what I want to kind of recognize is that it's a slow process. And that's why when folks that are so anti-gender-affirming care, it is not, like, one day a child decides they're female and we immediately get hormones or discussing surgery, which is not even where we are four years later. It is a long process. And as a parent, we come on board, also slowly. I work in healthcare. I have a medical background, so I was super nervous and skeptical at first. I wanted to make sure this was great care. But to see my child first, thrive when we bought her first dress. Like, just to see her light up, it was a recognition of “Oh, we are going down the right path.” And then to get great healthcare in another state with incredible comprehensive information for me to really digest. And to see her, like, she just broke into joyful tears when she found out she could get a puberty blocker. It's the story I think so many parents tell, but that spoke loudly to me. Another moment where we talk about mental health of queer kids, she's definitely struggled with anxiety and depression. But at one point, she broke down and was so frustrated, she's like, “I wish I wasn't trans.” Like, at some point, I think people think it's seeking attention. She's like, “I would want anything else, but this is my truth.” And knowing that it was going to be a hard road for her, she really broke down to me. And that's also a moment where those pieces fall into place. I'm like, this is her truth, and we will find the best way for her to thrive in this truth. 

SARA: Yeah, thank you for that. I think there's some commonalities there, and like, what are those resonant moments that parents, that we can remember that affirm for us, ”Oh, okay. This really is who they are. And here's these beautiful resonant moments that tell us that this is the truth.” I mean, I would have used the same description for my daughter, that once we started down that path of hormone blockers and hormones, like, really into the transitioning, it was like a light. turned on inside her. And what I've told people is, before that I wouldn't necessarily have articulated that a light was off. But when it turned on, the difference was so extraordinary that it was amazing to me. And that is what really, really cemented for me like, “Oh, we are on the path, like, “This is my kid is coming. It is coming out! My kid is coming out! I understand who they are in a way I never did before.” That is so beautiful. I have more questions for you, Melissa, about Healthcare and out-of-state and all that, but I want to hear Sarah's story first. 

SARAH: Well, I have so many resonances with all of that myself. So I'm a mom of a 24-year-old who lives in Central America right now, working for the Peace Corps, pretty awesome, cisgender. And a 16-year-old, trans male, lovely teenager. So we moved across state lines during the pandemic. I took an interim ministry job, and we moved to the Deep South. My kid was entering 6th grade so, you know, just on the edge of puberty. And, in that first year, I kind of knew that summer when we were moving that something was shifting with my kid. I wasn't totally sure what it was. And then they were home doing school from home for that first term. And they baked us a cake with non-binary colors. It's like a six-layer cake. And said, “I think I want you to use they-them pronouns. I'm still trying to figure this out, but that's where I'm at with it right now.” And so we started therapy, and managed to find some really great mental health folks down in the Deep South. I was really surprised. But honestly, most of the care we got when we were in the South was from amazing Black women who really understood oppression? And even if they didn't totally understand trans, they were totally willing to, like, figure it out with us. And both the psychiatrist and the counselors that we worked with were just really amazing. It was hard. My kid also went through some really deep depression and some strong anxiety. And it was a hard first couple of years. We had a hospitalization during the pandemic, which is – I don't want any parent to have to go through that, but a lot of parents went through it. Parents of queer kids, parents of just kids who at the time that our kid went in, they were the youngest person in the facility with teenagers, so they were in there with 17-year-olds. It was so scary and so hard. That's probably the hardest thing I've faced as a parent, was that week of not having my kid. And because of the pandemic, we weren't allowed to visit. And we didn't have video calls. We were trying to do regular phone calls. But it was landline. It was hard to get through. I was beside myself. So really, really, really hard. And our kid was having some pretty intense mental health stuff going on. So finding the right meds for it, finding the right treatment for it. They were having experiences that aren't ones that people under 16 normally have. So finding people who actually understood what that looked like in an 11- or 12-year-old was really hard. And, we were pretty much struggling by ourselves with it. We did manage to find, there was at the time, we were in kind of a mid-sized city. And we just managed to know the right people who were putting together an LGBTQ youth group. And it spanned several different progressive churches, as well as just people who were not connected to church at all. We ended up with some really great adults and kids for my kid to befriend during this time. It was probably the most life-saving thing we experienced. It's making me teary now, just think about it. Those people are still really important to us. We're all still in touch with some of those people, even though we've, once again, moved. You know, when I went in to search – I'm a minister, I was looking for a city that would be able to meet both my kids' LGBTQ needs, their needs as a queer kid, and also their mental health needs–that was a real challenge. To be looking for where was there a position that was going to meet my needs professionally? My husband's needs, professionally, and was going to offer the resources our kid needed. And it was obviously going to be a larger city because the mid-sized city just didn't have enough of those resources. We ended up in a large city in the top 10 of our country? And kind of a purple place. So we have some of the very red state stuff happening. And we have some of the more blue state stuff happening. And we have a lot in between. But we did have, at the time, the mental health resources we needed. And they had an amazing network of both, gender-affirming care in the Children's hospital that had a very well-known specialist and some really great, across the state, LGBTQ supports, and specifically trans kids supports. And such that there were groups everywhere, and actually a group that met very close to where I work. So, really helpful for us to be able to get our kid connected into the things they needed. And over time, after we moved here, so a couple years in, now they're 13, I guess. Sorry to keep track. I guess 13, decided, “Hey, I think it's actually he, him.” And we were like I kind of had seen it coming. I was like, yeah, I think this might just be a place to land for a little while with they, them, and could see, sort of, the shifting in their understanding of themselves. And so he moved into he, him. And we just never looked back. We did not get a special cake for that.

MELISSA: He owes you one. 

SARAH: He owes us one. Oh, he's baked mini cakes, but none that were specifically for that. And he's just really flourished here. We had incredible psychiatric care here. Like I said, the gender affirming clinic here was really great. And I'm using past tense for a reason. We did have another hospitalization. But it was really more related to really needing to make some changes in the meds, and just not being able to avoid what that meant for them, which is a week of instability. And what was really going really, really well, kind of got really, really rocky pretty quickly. Because as soon as the children's hospitals that were taking federal dollars to serve kids who are getting Medicaid were threatened, our local children's hospital caved pretty immediately. And left a huge number of kids who were getting incredible care in the lurch. And they claim that they were still offering care, but they were not offering the care that we needed. We had already moved to hormones. And we kind of missed the boat on hormone blockers, because puberty had already happened. And testosterone was making a huge difference for my kid. And there was no way we were going to go back on that. Just like you, I mean, I saw my kid completely blossom and is living into such a beautiful young adult version of himself. I just am so excited to see who he's becoming. And there was just no way, it was just never a question, and I think what's most heartbreaking about that is that the kids who rely on things like Medicaid, they didn't have a choice. I had a choice to move to another provider. And we did. And that provider's been great. And we managed to have continuous good access. I haven't yet had to go out of state. The parent group that I'm part of did actually look at what it would take for us if we might have to – we're closer to the border, so if we might need to go across the border to get the care that we needed. We had some access to potential resources for that. Or if we're just going to need to go to another state. But thankfully, right now, we're kind of in a place where we can still get care. But that's only because I have really good health insurance and we're not relying on federal dollars. So it's just really heartbreaking to me. I mean, my kid goes to an art school that is very, super queer. Like it's the most queer place ever, and it’s a charter school, it's a public charter, but you wouldn't be able to tell which kids were supposedly cisgender, which ones weren't, or which kids were gay, and which ones were straight, you just can't tell. It's just a bunch of nutty art students that all just look wonderfully themselves, and authentically living. But I know a lot of those kids are probably in a place of not having access to what they need. So it's been really hard to watch that happen and to find – you know, we've not just been watching it, of course. We've been fighting back, and trying to make inroads. But our children's hospital is just not interested in making a fight. So it's hard. 

MELISSA: Yeah. 

SARA: Yeah. That is so hard and so sad to watch happen across the country. Melissa, something similar happened to you, too. 

MELISSA: Yeah. Our children's hospital that I had flown to to get care also was part of the shut down and the subpoenas that came from the DOJ, which is scary in and of itself. But we might get into that later. 

SARA: Well, I really appreciate you both. I mean, it resonates very much with my kiddo's story in sharing very openly about all of the mental health struggles. There's a lot of mean – we know queer and trans youth are among the highest risk for mental health challenges, depression, anxiety, suicidality. That kind of just goes with the territory, I think, and particularly living in this climate. But I think this last year, with this administration, has added a lot to that. I know when my kiddo came out, similarly, first as non-binary, with they/them pronouns, and then during the pandemic, during this sort of online school time, started to slowly let us know that it was different and wanted to use she-they pronouns. And I was really grateful for that pandemic time that allowed her to have, both to experiment with the online presence, but without the public social transitioning that had to happen, in a way that was kind of a gift for all of us. One of the challenges that I noticed is that my kiddo was pretty quiet. And my experience with stories of trans kids were all the ones that I'd seen in media where it was young children who were adamantly clear about who they were and expressing it to the point of tears and frustration and all of that. And mine was not at all like that. And it took a lot of just really gentle questioning and curiosity to really get her to be clear with us. And of course, we come to realize that all of that was wrapped in a whole host of mental health diagnoses that all unfolded at the same time. What I'm wondering, both of you, because what I know and am hearing from a lot of our Mama Dragons community is just how hard this year has been on what is already a challenging mental health situation and kind of precarious for many of our kids, just in general. How have yours experienced or articulated and shared about what it feels like and how they have, if they have struggled in this year with this administration's kind of constant attacks. And then all of us being in some kind of red state where the state is also really targeting trans folks. I feel it. And I'm curious how yours have expressed it. 

MELISSA: I'll say that I know it's in the background. I don't know why I want to say something to those who are listening. But oftentimes I feel like we can talk about mental health for our queer kids, and it can be used as a reason that transness isn't real, “Oh, it's a mental health issue.“ And I really want to reframe it as living in current state of affairs and being in a vulnerable community, that's what feeds mental health diagnoses or challenges. I mean, my kid is just a teenager in today's world and is struggling with anxiety and post-pandemic. And knows that they have to fight for their existence. And that is a background noise, even though she sort of stays away from what is happening politically. I mean, I was on it, like a “fly on poop,” knowing what was happening every second after Trump was elected, of like, “Okay, what does this mean for us?” And I read everything. And I was downloading things. And I was in every parent group I could kind of get my hands on so that I would be able to jump ahead of it. And I purposely didn't always let my child know what was going on, because it was changing every day. And I just was like, “Until it actually affects us, I'm just going to keep it to myself.” But that is also holding a lot. But I could tell that my child, she knows, right? She’s aware, she does. Even though she's watching creatives on YouTube, stuff comes in, right? Even when they're drawing something, they're often the creative contents are queer themselves, and so they're commenting on the world as it is. So it's hard. I would like the privilege of being a parent of just teens that are typically struggling because that's hard enough. 

SARA: Right. 

MELISSA: And this extra layer is – we're exhausted, and my kid is exhausted and just wants to be one of the girls at school and navigating friendships, and that's tough in and of itself. She's out in school and has transitioned in this particular school. So always feels a little bit on edge of who is seeing her differently. So yeah, it's just tough. 

SARA: Oh my gosh, it's so tough. When my daughter was in her senior year, she had transferred to this alternative school in town that she loved, super queer-friendly, super helpful for all of the neurodivergent needs that come along with kids, and was really thriving. This was the same year when our state passed the ban on gender-affirming care for youth. She wasn't 18 yet. And that fall, she was the target of a threat at school. Luckily, not to her face, but it was a very violent threat. And it had to do with her wearing a skirt. And we got called into the counselor's office. And we, of course, had to tell her what the threat was, even though she didn't hear it, which was devastating. And it set our entire family into such a spiral of anxiety. And evidence of everything can be going great, and we can protect, protect, protect. And yet, I just felt so angry about when states, and now our federal government, are doing these kind of public attacks, right? Whether or not it makes any impact in the life of anybody, an executive order, the trickle-down effect means that threats are increasing and people are being awful and hideous online and in person and everywhere. And it's just, it ratchets up everybody's anxiety. And it's been really hard. Sarah, tell us how has it been in your house in navigating this weirdness and awfulness? 

SARAH: Yeah. Yeah, I think in some ways, the anxiety for my husband and I has been higher than it has been for our kid. Partly because we've really been trying to think about what's the thing that would cause us to move? And who would move? Would we all move? We share a home with my mom. So we live in an intergenerational household. My mom is retired. We bought a house together. Moving would not be a simple thing for us to do. My kid only has two years left ‘til he's in high college, so really hoping to not have to make a move but also looking at what would be the things that would make us have to make that decision? So a lot of that conversation happened between January and June of this year. And we've sort of tabled it. Although I think my husband's anxiety about it has been higher than mine. 

SARA: What was that rubric for you? Like what were some of the lines in the sand that you were talking about in terms of – because this is a conversation that's everywhere, all of us, all of us, myself included, right. 

SARAH: Yeah. 

SARA: Do I move? When's the moment where I ought to really consider moving? 

SARAH: Yeah. I think the moment that we are not able to easily access the care that my kid needs was going to be a moment that we were going to have to make a different decision. I mean, we can still currently – I think if we just had to go over one state line, maybe that would have been okay? But if, if it was going to be a real economic hardship to continue to get the care that he's getting right now that is making him thrive, then we would have to figure out how we got to a place where that was not going to be a choice we'd have to make. And whether that was just getting to the Northwest, right? Getting to a state that maybe is a little more blue than this one, and a little more – you know, New York or Washington or whatever or going to another country to make that happen – all of which would be both financially devastating and extremely complicated around where all of us are at in our lives. I don't think I'm going to be moving my mom across state lines or to another country. So it would be probably breaking up our household to some degree. None of which seems like a good plan, right? This is our current – we love living together. We chose that for a reason. So it was really hard to think about those things. I think right now we're in a place where we're just hoping to get through the next ywo years so that Saul–my kid–can end up at a college in a part of the world, maybe not the United States maybe, that he can have access to the things that he needs, and he can have access to the supports that he needs, and not have to be fighting for them all the time. That's kind of the hope. But yeah, one of the other things that came up in our parent group, one of the parents had actually gotten an attorney for their kid in case somebody called CPS on them and their kids needed to have an attorney represent them. 

SARA: Oh my god. 

SARAH: And I remember when they brought that up. And I was like, “Oh my god, is that where we're at? Is that really where we're at?” And for some of the people in the room, it was like, yeah, they were in a school with – I'm not scared that somebody at the school my kid's currently at would do that. But I'm a public figure. I guess somebody could decide to do that to us. I mean, I really had this moment of like, oh, it really is sort of open warfare on us and our families, our kids and how will we protect ourselves? And then I still go back to some of us don't have the resources to hire an attorney to represent our kids. So this whole piece for me that's just like the folks who are weathering this storm better are families like mine that have more resources. And how are we helping the kids and families who don't have access to even get to the support group, right? 

SARA: Yeah, yeah. 

SARAH: Yeah. So just really, really hard. We went on a trip looking at colleges this last summer and really honed in on places that my kid was going to feel safe, places that had colleges and universities that had resources that were where he would feel safe on campus, where he would have access to the doctors that he needed. And just where, I don't know, the surrounding community felt like a safe place to be. And so far, that's looked like the Upper Northwest. It's looked like, potentially, New York State. And potentially, like, Europe. 

SARA: Yeah. 

MELISSA: I don't know if you feel this, Sarah. But I think it's a blessing and a curse. I'm also on some parent support group LISTSERVs specifically for the state that I seek gender-affirming care because they have a wealth of information. And many of these parents have been on this journey for decades, actually. But when parents start bringing up like, “Oh, we are prepping for leaving the country,” or, “we're getting an attorney.” I start, it's almost like FOMO. I don't know because kids say that. They're just like, “What am I missing? Am I behind the eight ball? What do I need to be doing?” And that's where the anxiety starts spiraling. 

SARAH: Yes. 

MELISSA: And I think, “Are they overreacting? Am I not reacting enough?” Then I bring it to my husband, and he's way more chill and like, “Well, when it affects us, we don't need to do anything just yet.” I think I have to take breaks from reading and knowing what is happening daily in different states, in my state, nationally, because, again, it isn't immediately affecting me. But what I feel similar to what you're saying is what about all the families – because I have the privilege of getting out of state for medical care – for all those families who can't. And how do I fight for them? And if I stick my head in the sand too long, that's not fair to those who can't get the resources I am seeking. But I also am like, “Oh, but I also have to just, like tunnel visioned into my own kid. And when is the time to move?” One of the things I always have to keep in mind is my cisgender kid is also thriving and has another year and a half of school. And I don't want to make our move about one kid where the other kid suffers, because that can create bitterness. So I kind of was hoping that our job would make us move or some other reason, rather than gender-affirming care or queer positive community. I don't know. I don't have the answer. I feel like we're all just like juggling. I'm like, “Doesn't somebody have the answers because everyone's giving different answers, and I'm not sure which one I should be looking at.” 

SARA: Yeah, I appreciate, Melissa, I'm in a similar situation. I know when our healthcare ban was going around my state, there was a moment where I was very, I was serious. I was looking for jobs in California. Like, I was like, “I'm ready to go. I cannot handle this anymore. We need to leave. This is not healthy for this family.” Weirdly, at that time, my trans daughter had just found a little community and was just kind of set and didn't want to go, to which I was like, “Really?” But I have a younger cisgender kid who also, and this was right after the pandemic, I sort of felt like had things really escalated during pandemic times, it would have been easier to move, but my youngest started really finding his tribe and community and sports and all the things, and he was thriving. And it was just, I felt very much torn in a way that I didn't, that was really, really. difficult. And I'm curious, Melissa, if yours ever talked about moving, because you fly, I know you fly some states away to access care . . . 

MELISSA: We do have to. 

SARA: . . . and if the conversation between you has ever come up about moving? 

MELISSA: Yes, my trans child wants absolutely not to be here in this state and vocalizes that regularly and would prefer to be out of the country, in all honesty. We did a trip just as a family, to London a year and a half ago or so. And she was like, “Can we go back there? Can we live there?” I'm like, we don't have access to resources, jobs or visas. And it's not necessarily the best next option, UK, right now. So, yes, she is very vocal about it. And like I said, I have to weigh both children's needs. And my oldest daughter, I didn't think that a move would be the right choice. And again, it's like, we are navigating it. We do have family in another state that I can fly to and have a place to stay and get care. So do we just keep on the road and just take it one day at a time until it is clear that it is not doable? I think the part that feels very strange to me – and I don't know if you guys experienced this – is I start feeling like I'm a conspiracy theorist. Like I start going, I think I'm a pretty educated, rational woman. And I start going down some pretty dark roads of concentration camps, and thinking. “Am I going to wait too long? And what were Germans thinking back in 1928? Are these all the signs and it's really the smart ones that are moving, getting out of the country, getting their visas in place, getting their refugee status set up. Like are they the smart ones just like the families who put their kids on the Kindertransport?” I got a call from CVS Pharmacy who filled my child's puberty blocker a year ago. And I was convinced it was the government trying to get information, that it was not CVS Pharmacy. So I was like, “What do you mean? I'm sorry. Who is this again?” And they're like “What is your child's birthdate and is this their name? And this is for the suppralin.” And I just was really feeling like I was crazy because I wasn't sure that this was who they said they were. 

SARA: But under the circumstances we are living in, Melissa, as you're talking, I'm like, no, you actually don't sound all that crazy. 

SARAH: No. 

MELISSA: Which is wild. 

SARA: It’s wild to be in that position.

MELISSA: I should sound crazy. It should be a crazy thing to think. But we really are in a place where families are navigating the stress of, are they coming for me, CPS, or are they coming for my child? And do I want them on some registry somewhere? 

SARA: On top of what appears to be, could be a registry for autism, neurodivergence, and that side of things. Like it's all interconnected and affects most of our kids are in both of those places. 

MELISSA: Right. 

SARA: And it's doubly scary. 

MELISSA: Yeah. 

SARA: Yeah, it doesn't – I hear you. It is really difficult to balance all of that wondering. And I don't think it's conspiracy theories. I think it's really hard to – it's a gauge. It's really hard to gauge where is this going? 

MELISSA: Right. 

SARA: What kind of preparedness is important right now? What should I be thinking about for the future? And it's just a lot. We had an episode with a therapist last week. And one of the things he mentioned – and I'm sure you all have heard this before and perhaps I've talked about it. But it really got me thinking a lot, and I think it's relevant to this particular conversation – is that it feels a little gendered, but there's some evidence behind it that moms and women in caregiving roles, or the primary caregiver to take it out of gender, are the ones who carry around emotional labor. Right? Here's the emotional labor, right? We're doing the calculation in our mind all the time about what five appointments need to be made and also, do I need to get a passport and pack a go bag and be ready to leave the country? I mean, that is significant emotional labor. How do you deal with that? Do you feel that and how do you deal with it? 

SARAH: Yeah, I feel it. I feel it. And I think, therapy, thank God for therapy. 

MELISSA: Our own, for sure. 

SARAH: You know, definitely my spouse and I spend a lot of time just talking about it, so that it's out in the open. And we're thinking about the options. And we're trying to hold each other in a space of sort of realistic choices. For me it was helpful to get out the, like, these are the circumstances under which we would have to move. Like we located which friends and family lived where, that we could make a quick and easier escape than going out of the country. So, like, who are those first-level stepping stones? And just knowing that we kind of have that as a backup plan, I could sort of set it down and be like, I don't need that right now, but I have it. So like the go bag, like, okay, the go bag's packed. And now I can just set it aside, and as long as I remember where it is, it doesn't get buried by other stuff. We're kind of good to go. That's helped a lot. Actually, my kid who's now 16, has been really engaged in politics and actually tracking a lot of this stuff himself. And he's actually not been pulled under by it. I think it's actually been empowering to him to be thinking about that we have the right to protest. We have the right to write letters. We have the right to demand things. We have a right to be who we are. And when we marched in Pride this year, which I hadn't done with him, my husband had done it a couple times with him, but just worked things for me was happening on a Sunday, I work on Sundays. But I took the Sunday off, and we marched together with the parent group that I'm a part of. And it was actually really empowering to be walking down the street yelling, “Protect trans kids!” “Happy Pride!” and have people yell it back to us. And, I could just see that my kid, in some ways the pressure of this moment has had him blossom. He's super self-managing right now in a way that I never predicted he would be. And I completely attribute to this process of coming out and being more fully who he is. He manages all his own meds, he manages all his own doctor appointments, he manages all the communications. I can't remember all the meds he's on, he remembers them. He's got an additional medical condition called POTS, the postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome. And he's managed PT for that and doctor appointments for that. And I think there's a way for him in which this has happened at a moment where he is moving into adulthood, maybe more quickly than he would have otherwise but with a different kind of assurance. And that's helped me manage my own anxiety. Like, I can see that he's moving into adulthood with some capacity that I didn't have at that age, and which he's really going to need. Because if he does go away to college, he will need to manage those multiple pieces without me right there. We're not going to move into the dorm with him. So he's going to have to know how to manage some of that. And it's helped me to see him being so resourced that he can actually do for other people now, too, that he's the kid that the other queer kids come to when they're struggling, when they're having mental health problems, when their parents are having issues. Like our family and our kid have become kind of a safe place for those other kids who are struggling. And that's been, that's helped me see that we have a commitment to stay in this community and to help resource our community, as long as it is not going to destroy us. 

SARA: Yeah. 

SARAH: And I think right now, we're on the good side of that equation. And that's been helpful. But yeah, thank God for therapy. Everybody in my family has their own therapist. And it’s good for us, even if we weren't dealing with the extra part of democracy falling apart and our trans kids being under attack. But it's really helped us manage our communications with each other, our own anxiety, to, like pay attention to our own limbic systems, and like try to co-regulate in a way that's going to allow us to be a family in a more joyful way. I see that that has actually attracted some folks into our lives who also need that. So I think there's kind of a radiating capacity there in terms of sharing some of the goodness that's, even in a place of real challenge, that we can still have access to joy and we can still have access to clear thinking about what we might want to do. 

MELISSA: Wow, that's beautiful. I am super impressed that your kiddo has really developed that capacity and I think that shines well on your parenting to give them that gift to take on some of their own healthcare while they're still under your umbrella, you know? 

SARAH: The joke in our family is that actually it's my lack of doing a great job of keeping track of that stuff that caused my kid to be really good at keeping track of it. So I always tell people, I'm not an attachment parent, I'm a detachment parent, which sounds terrible, I'm not detached at all. But I always told both of my kids, like, I can barely keep track of my own doctor's appointments and all the details I have to keep track of as a minister. It's really helpful if, as you are hitting those older teen years for you to start to pick up some of those things yourself. I just never thought this kid would be able to because ADD. And what he looked like at 14 and what he looks like now are so different. So different. 

SARA: That’s great. 

SARAH: So different. I would not have predicted this moment. I'm not sure it's anything I did, but thank you, Melissa. I'll take the win. I'll take the win either way. 

SARA: You're giving me hope too because I'm like, oh yeah, I have the hardest time tracking it all and my kiddo. It's funny, my eldest is not there yet for all of the reasons you just named, but my 16-year-old has it down. And I'm like, alright, I'll take one. I'll take one. 

MELISSA: If I could say, because I think about this emotional load and I have really recognized because of what else is happening in politics around immigrants and Black Lives Matter is recognizing my privilege as a white cisgender woman. 

SARAH: Yes. 

MELISSA: How much of my life I have not lived in that state of anxiety for my family. Even though we have a multi-ethnic family, there is privilege in, my husband is now a citizen but comes from another country. I just realized that we didn't have generations, we being white folk, we didn't have generations of learning that resilience and capacity over years of constant attacks. You know, I'm not a Black mom having to prep my child around police and how to stay safe around police. And so recognizing that there have been so many communities that have held this emotional load for their families for generations and have passed that resilience on, and we are suddenly in a place of, like, “Oh, things are falling apart. I took things for granted. And now I need to be my family's advocate and my child's protector.” And so I think so much of the BIPOC community who also have trans kids, like, the layers that they are holding and I need to learn from those minority communities on what that resilience looks like, because I feel very overwhelmed. And not necessarily did I get that capacity passed down from my parents on how to navigate uncertain times. 

SARA: Thank you for that answer, Melissa. That is a really beautiful and important reflection, I hope can kind of help us all think about our privilege, and kind of how we can make a larger difference in the community from that place, from all of the understanding that you named. It was really lovely. I can't believe it's already been an hour. 

MELISSA: I can't either.

SARA: We could keep going. 

MELISSA: We could talk about so many other things. 

SARA: So many other things. I mean, I have a ton more questions. But I do want to keep our time and thank you. But I want to end on a joyful note. So, I want to know, this is a question we ask most of our guests at the end of every episode. But I want to know, what is bringing you joy right now? You know, we know and we recognize how important it is to cultivate joy and particularly in these times when everything else is pulling at us for the exhaustion and the heartbreak. So, where are you finding joy? 

MELISSA: Sarah, you want to go first? I gotta think about this. 

SARA: I'll start, I'll start. This Sara will start, and then you two can have a moment to think. 

MELISSA: Go for it. 

SARA: As we've been talking, and as I have shared with some folks the strange silver lining of this moment is that I have had the great blessing to be part of some extraordinary communities to support trans organizations and groups who are doing really good community work and parents. And I have met some of the most wonderful people. And being around them just feeds my spirit and my heart in such a gorgeous way. And getting to be part of the work and part of the community has just been such a gift, despite the reasons why we're having to do it. And so it's a strange joy, but it is definitely bringing me some joy. 

SARAH: I mean, 100% with you on that. We did a Transgender Day of Visibility event on my campus in March of this year. And we really focused in on relationship building and connections, and not so much on anything big in public, but just who needed to be together and what did we need to do together. And it ended up being just such a beautiful gathering of nurturing each other, and meeting each other, and deeper conversation. And it was a real beginning point this year for me to think about what's the community we get to build in the face of all of this? Like, what's the community I'm fighting for on the other side of all of this awfulness? Like if things are going to be destroyed, then what am I going to create in the face of that? And I would agree. For me, it's been the beauty of just deepening those connections and creating joy together despite all the things that are happening that are hard. And a lot of my work takes me into other kinds of organizing. And across the board, that has been the place of joy for me is just, okay, so we're in this together. Who else do we need to invite into the gathering? Who's going to bring what to eat? What songs are we going to sing? What stories are we going to tell? And let's just jump in and take care of each other. That has been really beautiful.

SARA: Yeah.

MELISSA: I would definitely echo that we moved to this community, strange to say, way back in 2018, but have not had much of a community automatically coming together. And through my child's beautiful being, I have been able to find who are like-minded, heart-open folks. I think the most joy I've found is recognizing the capacity of family and extended family and neighbors that I never would have known were allies and committed to supporting my child. I never would have known there is an incredible, even in this red state, my street of neighbors who we have our big Pride flag, have really shown up for us as well as my family that are here in the States. I can't speak for my husband's family who are out of the country. But seeing my family also step up, that has brought a lot of joy. I think I knew it. But to see it and experience it has really been a beautiful blessing in this becoming of a whole family as we are, authentically, each and every one of us.

SARA: Thank you. Thank you both. That was beautiful, and thank you for this time and this connection. Every time I get a chance to talk with other moms, I am renewed. I feel seen. I feel more grounded and connected and less alone. And so I hope that we've offered that to our larger community today. I'm very grateful for you both. You're doing extraordinary things as parents, and you have amazing kids, your trans kids and your not trans kids. Thanks for being part of our community today.

SARAH: Thank you, thank you.

MELISSA: Thank you. It was so nice to meet you both. Thanks.

SARA: Thank you so much for joining us here In the Den. Did you know that Mama Dragons offers an eLearning program called Parachute? This is an interactive learning platform where you can learn more about how to affirm, support, and celebrate the LGBTQ+ people in your life. Learn more at mamadragons.org/parachute or find the link in the episode show notes under links. 

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