Raising Resilient Humans

Life can be hard, especially for our queer children. They often face unique obstacles, encounter discrimination, and endure marginalization in their lives and in their pursuits of happiness. Resilience helps our children (and us) cope with life's challenges and setbacks, allowing folks to recover and grow stronger from difficult experiences. Resilience fosters emotional regulation, optimism, and a strong support network, which are essential for maintaining mental well-being and overall life satisfaction. Joining us In the Den is Dr. Kate Lund, a licensed psychologist, Tedx Speaker, author of Stepping Away the Keys to Resilient Parenting, and an expert on the topic of resilience. Dr. Kate insists that resilience does not have to be complicated and that we all are capable of living our best lives, regardless of our setbacks.

Special Guest: Dr. Kate Lund

Dr. Kate Lund is a clinical psychologist, keynote speaker, published author, and resilience expert dedicated to helping individuals and families thrive within their own unique contexts. With advanced training from three Harvard-affiliated hospitals and decades of experience in clinical practice, Dr. Lund specializes in emotional intelligence, stress resilience, and sustainable well-being for parents, athletes, and high performers. She is the author of Bounce: Help Your Child Build Resilience and Thrive in School, Sports, and Life and Step Away: The Keys to Resilient Parenting. Dr. Lund also hosts Resilient Parenting with Dr. Kate, a podcast that explores the science and lived experience of resilience through conversations with parents, educators, clinicians, and leaders. Known for her relatable, evidence-based approach, Dr. Lund blends clinical expertise with personal insight as the mother of twin boys and while working as a volunteer with her dog Wally as part of the animal assisted therapy program at Seattle Children’s Hospital. Whether on stage, in session, or on the air, she empowers people to step away from overwhelm and step into clarity, connection, and confidence.

Links from the Show:

• Kate’s Book Step Away
• Kate Book Bounce
• Kate’s Website
• Join Mama Dragons today

In the Den is made possible by generous donors like you. Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today at www.mamadragons.org. 

Transcript

SARA: Hi everyone. Welcome to In the Den with Mama Dragons. A podcast and community to support, educate, and empower parents on the journey of raising happy and healthy LGBTQ+ humans. I’m your host, Sara LaWall. I’m a Mama Dragon myself and an advocate for our queer community. And I’m so glad to be part of this wild and wonderful parenting journey with all of you. Thanks for joining us. We’re so glad you’re here.

SHAUNA: Hi, friends! Welcome to the In the Den with Mama Dragons podcast. I'm Shauna, and I'm filling in for Sarah today. And I am really looking forward to today's conversation, because we are going to be talking about resilience. Life can be hard, especially for our queer kids. They often face unique obstacles, they encounter discrimination and endure marginalization in their lives and in their pursuits of happiness. Resilience helps our children and us cope with life's challenges and setbacks, allowing folks to recover and grow stronger from difficult experiences. Resilience fosters emotional regulation, optimism, and a strong support network, which are essential for maintaining mental well-being and overall life satisfaction. Joining me in the den today is Dr. Kate Lund, a licensed psychologist, TEDx speaker, author of Step Away, The Keys to Resilient Parenting, and kind of an overall expert on the topic of resilience. Dr. Kate insists that resilience does not have to be complicated, and that we're all capable of living our best lives, regardless of our setbacks. So, welcome, Dr. Kate! I'm so happy you're here.

KATE: Well, thank you so much for having me. I'm glad to be here.

SHAUNA: I would love for us to start our conversation with you telling us a little bit about yourself and your background, and how you became interested in studying resilience.

KATE: Sure, absolutely. Yeah, so for me, my interest in resilience, my focus on becoming a psychologist really goes way back to when I was four. I was diagnosed with a medical condition called hydrocephalus, which is essentially where the cerebral spinal fluid isn't circulating as it should, causing pressure to build up on the brain. And so the good news is hydrocephalus can be managed with something called a shunt, which is a surgically implanted pump that will circulate the fluid when it can't circulate on its own. The bad news with that is that shunts break, particularly in childhood. So, for me, lots of time in and out of the hospital, lots of time coming back to school after prolonged hospitalizations and surgery, looking different, feeling different, and having to figure out how to keep up, how to move forward despite all that. And I had a lot of great support. I was very fortunate. My parents, parents of friends, teachers, were quite supportive. It took a while to figure it all out because this kind of thing wasn't very common, back in the day. But ultimately, my support system really did help me focus on what I could do, as opposed to what I couldn't do. And I think that's what made all the difference in helping me to move forward and kind of flourish within my own unique context, because my context wasn't really like my friends or my brother, even. And so you have to figure that out. You have to understand your context and figure out what you can do in that context to optimize your own sense of well-being. And sure didn't happen all at once. There was lots of surgery. There was lots of moments like this. But ultimately, it did happen

SHAUNA: I'm curious how you felt like you gained resilience as a little person, right? When your friends are all different, your siblings are different, do you have a concept of how that came to you as a little person? Do you think it was in your social network, or do you think it was something inside of you, or a mix of both?

KATE: I think probably a mix of both. One of the things that I point to a lot in terms of what helped me to really focus on what I could do, as opposed to what I couldn't do, is the fact that pretty early on, I became a tennis player. So when my shunt was working I was good. I had expectations. I had to do my chores. I had to do my homework, all these things. I couldn't play contact sports. I really wanted to be a hockey player, like my brother. I really wanted to do all these things. But I couldn't because I couldn't play contact sports. I couldn't get hit in the head, I couldn't fall, all these things. So, someone pointed me in the direction of tennis, and I gravitated towards it. I became really good at it. But again, within my own context, right? I had friends who are still friends to this day, who always beat me. I rarely won the tournaments. But I was very often runner-up. So I was pretty good. But I really valued, I really, internalized my identity as a tennis player. Like, that was a big deal to me, and I didn't think about it in those terms at the time, but it really was a big deal. And so, it always was something that I went back to, after a hospitalization. Like, if I could get back on the court, I was better, I was back. And so I played. I played through high school. I was captain of the team. I had a significant medical setback my senior year of high school towards the end. And I ended up having to defer college for a year, and took that year off. But, the cool thing is, when I did finally get to college, I was able to play tennis. So I played tennis in college, too, and that was a big deal, because that was really, “Yeah, I'm back, I'm better.” And so, tennis was something that really helped in this defining of myself as Capable, as opposed to Not Capable.

SHAUNA: That's awesome. So finding your lane is kind of what I hear you saying, like there are some lanes that you're not going to be able to succeed in, but then finding what you can succeed in, I feel like, is an important part of moving past any setbacks that we have, and finding the strength to be our best selves.

KATE: Yeah, absolutely, because we still need to navigate the challenges. Those are real, right?

SHAUNA: Sure.

KATE: But to figure out what your lane is, and what it's going to take to flourish within that lane within your own unique context. So, right, for me, I wasn't winning every tournament. I wasn't winning every match. And that was okay. I think that was even better, because I really did love playing from the inside out. Like, I was really not driven by – oh, I mean, I loved getting the trophies – but if I didn't get the trophy, it was okay. And I have some friends who quit because they weren't winning anymore, and it lost its luster. And yeah, that was, I feel for me, very fortunate. I was never in that place. And it's a message that I've tried to give my own kids, and to a degree they get it. But I also have to see their desire to actually be in that first boat that's going to win, too, right? It's a balancing act, you know? And it's just understanding yourself. And their context is different than my context. And so they are in the first boat, and they row. I'm sorry, they're crew kids.

SHAUNA: Oh, that's fun.

KATE: Yeah.

SHAUNA: That's awesome.

KATE: So anyway, I digress, I'm sorry.

SHAUNA: No, that's great. I, like most of our listeners, if not all of our listeners are parents, and I know a big question that we hear a lot is, how do we foster resilience? And in your book, which we will link to your books in our Mama Dragons bookstore. One of the things that really stood out to me is that we foster resilience in our children by fostering resilience in ourselves. I'd love a little more to that.

KATE: Yeah, absolutely. And so it's true. It's as we're building resilience in ourselves as parents, we're modeling, both directly and indirectly for our kids, in terms of how to appreciate your own unique context, how to show up fully within that context, kind of what that looks like, how to respond instead of react. And that's a really important point that for us as parents, having a way to modulate our stress response, so that we're showing up level, or as level as possible, each day, such that we're not showing up up here, so that when a stressor hits, boom, we escalate to the point of shutdown. So we're more level. That's a really important piece to practice ourselves, and then model as well as discuss with our kids. I love a technique called the Relaxation Response, which was developed by a physician in Boston in the 1970s, before this was a thing, and really simple technique. And come up with a word or a phrase that you find soothing in a way, and you breathe 5 minutes in the morning, 5 minutes later in the day, starting to integrate that baseline feeling of modulation, because oftentimes, we don't even know what that feels like, because we're moving so fast through life. And the drive for doing more, being more, is so present. So it's really important to take that step back, slow down for ourselves as parents, modeling that for our kids, because our kids are picking up on everything that's going on. And if we're frenetic all the time, that's going to be kind of a norm or baseline in their minds. So, that peace is really, really important.

SHAUNA: That feels like something that is doable for almost everyone, you know? Like, you think about when we're in crisis with our kids, maybe, we're on suicide watch with them, or they're self-harming, or things are just at a high level all the time, it can feel really hard to step back from that and take a break for ourselves. But, 5 minutes, you can do that in a hospital room. You can do that anywhere. That feels like a doable step.

KATE: 100%. And the cool thing is, right, the relaxation response, I like to have folks practice that consistently, 5 minutes in the morning, 5 minutes in the evening. Definitely can do it anywhere. Take it on the road. But also, you can carry it around in your back pocket for those moments of stress or intensity that might come up through the day. You mentioned being in a hospital room if your child is sick or ill. When a doctor is coming in and you need to reset, or you're waiting for the doctor, or you're waiting for a test, or anything along those lines. You can kind of pull this technique out, use it to reset and get back down to level very quickly, particularly if you've been practicing consistently, because it's a cumulative effect.

SHAUNA: Yeah. Do you have an example of a calming phrase or a word that you like to use or that we could start with?

KATE: Well, yeah. It's really - there's no one-size-fits-all. And it has to resonate on some level, so a degree of meaning. But we don't want it to be complicated. So, folks oftentimes pick their favorite color, or let's say that you find calm and peace on a beach. Maybe it'll be “beach” or “blue water.” Maybe someone will find more calm and peace in the mountains, so they'll have the word or phrase relate to that. So we want it to resonate with an individual sort of specifically, but we don't want it to be complex.

SHAUNA: That makes sense. One other question that I feel a lot, is trying to find the balance between pushing through. That feels like such a nebulous line sometimes, I'm not sure. Is this just something I need to just keep forcing myself through? Or do you have any advice on that?

KATE: Yeah, that is such a great question. And are you talking about, sort of, in work, or in life, or in, kind of…

SHAUNA: Yeah, all of it. In parenting, I think a lot of times we feel that we're trying to manage families or kids, or our kids are dealing with big stuff, and sometimes our kids are dealing with a lot of anxiety, marginalization. And it's hard for me sometimes to know when I should push them like, “Oh no, you just gotta show up. You gotta keep trying,” and when I can say, “Okay, no, this is not healthy for you.” It just always feels so hard to know where that line is.

KATE: Yeah, that is such a great question. And it's hard to know. And it really is dependent on your child, and you, and your awareness of what each of you needs to flourish in your context, whatever it is. And in regards to pushing a child forward despite the challenge, if things are starting to shift, if they're showing up in an atypical way for them, like if they're starting to exhibit signs of depression, or increased anxiety, or social withdrawal, or isolation, definitely time to take a step back and not continue to push. So it's really situationally dependent, dependent on the child and the disposition and such because I hear you. It's hard to, let's say an example might be, your child has really wanted to sign up for a certain sport. And you kind of might have been hesitant, but signed up. And then they hate it. And it's feeling really, really stressful. And do you push through? Or do you allow them to unsign up? It really depends. I mean, this has happened in our own house before, a couple examples. And there were a few instances where I did let them step away from the sport. But usually our kind of impulse is to push through. But if there's a situation where there's bullying happening, or they're getting hurt, or just psychologically, it feels like too big a load, then it's time to pull back. And the recognition of that really comes from reflection, and being there for your kid, trying to understand their experience as fully as possible without necessarily jumping in there to fix it but to really understand. And then make that decision in sort of a collaborative, reflective way.

SHAUNA: I love that. That's helpful. Another thing that stood out to me from your book was comparison. Each of my kids are very different and have had different life trajectories. And none of them have looked like their peers. I think a lot of times for our queer kids, especially our trans kids, it's really hard when your peers, maybe all of their peers are going to school dances, and they are not. Or they're going to college, and they are not because of their mental health. Do you have any tips or advice, or just counsel for trying to avoid that trap of comparison?

KATE: Such a hard trap, right? And it's real, right? Because it's that impulse to want to be like everyone else, and it's really, really hard. And I mean, I experienced that when I was younger a lot not being in the mix with a lot of my peers, not being able to do a lot of the same things. So it's really about, sort of, finding your context and being able to appreciate yourself within that context. And it's a process, it takes time. To appreciate your own unique context does not happen overnight. But as parents, we can kind of help to make that process move forward, go a little bit more smoothly. I have twin boys. They're 18. Very, very different kids. And one of them struggled early academically a little bit, while his brother, extremely academic, and just very successful out of the gate. And they've each had their own challenges in that way. But it was really important for my son who struggled academically, for us to help him see his strengths – I mean, obviously it was important for my other one, too – but to see his strengths, and not just focus on the challenges. The challenges, very real, had to figure out how to contend with them, had to help him to learn to advocate for himself over time, and use his strengths to compensate for the things that were hard. I mean, this kind of goes for both the boys but using my one son as an example. And what ended up happening there was he came to us after a summer experience at a boarding school on the East Coast. Coming home, he flourished socially, flourished in so many ways, and he's like, “I want to do this for real.” And we were like, “Okay, well, let's explore it.” And so we did, and he actually is at boarding school now on the East Coast, and flourishing, living his best life. And it's been life-changing for him in terms of academics, sports. He also rows, but wasn't rowing at the same level as his brother was here. But now he is, because he's had the opportunities, and he's had, sort of, a chance to see what he's capable of, in his own context. And it's been a really, really cool thing to see how that's evolved. And the relationship with his brother, they're even closer now. They've always been close, but they're even closer now because there's that peace. So I think it's that question of helping kids to find their context, find out how they can identify and use their strengths within their context. And to really appreciate them, that. And not compare themselves to their peers or those around them in a way that makes them feel less than. And it's really, really important. I mean, for example, our guy here, he's very social in a certain way. But he's not a partier. So he's not off at all the parties. He's not doing all that stuff that might come with being out at all those parties. I'm very happy with that, by the way, my husband is too. But at times, you feel "other", or you feel outside of, if you're not in that mix. But he's come to appreciate who he is and what's important to him. And that feels like a good place to be. Not easy, though. It's a process. And leaving space to talk about these issues with our kids is really important as well.

SHAUNA: Yeah, it seems like finding other kids – has he found others that are kind of like him? Has he found his group, or is he still doing that?

KATE: Yeah, and that is true, finding others that are kind of aligned and in that mix. And he actually did, last year, he found a whole group of them. They were seniors last year, though, and he was a junior last year. So now they're off at college, and so that's been a little challenging. But it's, yes, a piece of that. And another thing that he found was in crew, he's captain of the team, and that's been a huge deal, and very helpful to strike that balance. So, it's just a way of saying, for all of our kids because all of our kids have strengths, and strengths that will help them to compensate for some of those things that are hard. And feeling "other" is really hard. And if you can kind of dig deep and figure out what defines you at the core and to sort of really focus on that. I mean, I'll tell you that when I was in high school, I didn't go to all the parties either. I was recovering from surgery half the time. But the other half of the time, I was at home, watching TV, eating frozen yogurt. And it just was what it was. And I felt like there was a point where it didn't really bother me anymore because I was able to appreciate what I had going on, you know, and what the potential was moving forward. And I think never losing sight of that possibility and potential for all of our kids, but particularly those who might feel different in some way, is really, really important. And we can help with that process as parents.

SHAUNA: Yeah, that reminds me of our oldest, when he came out as queer, we were struggling to find other queer kids, and ended up creating our own little group because I couldn't find the resources. So we kind of created the resources, just like a monthly youth group that would meet, and they could come together, because I'm thinking especially for our queer kids that are in conservative areas where it's not as open or visible, it can be really helpful, sometimes to just create the spaces that you need. It can be tricky. And sometimes it's changing places, right? Going to college, or moving out. But that is a challenging period.

KATE: So hard, yeah, so hard, and it's really important during that time to never lose sight of what's possible on the other side of what feels hard right now. And that's not to minimize the hard. It's just really important to help our kids to keep their eye on the other side of the challenge.

SHAUNA: Yeah. Okay, can we get into the seven pillars of raising resilient children?

KATE: Sure. Yeah.

SHAUNA: Okay, I would love to get into the details and give our moms and parents some actionable tips. Okay, so I wrote them down and we can talk about each of them. 

1. Managing Emotion and Tolerating Frustration.

KATE: Right, and yeah. And that’s at the core, right? That's the first pillar. And really goes back to having a way to modulate our stress response. So, helping our kids learn to do that really early. For really young kids, it's having a way to help them kind of understand their breath, their breath patterns. I mean, blowing bubbles, helping them calm down when they're upset, that sort of thing. So we can start really, really young. And then as they get older through the developmental phases, starting to introduce them to things like the relaxation response, or there are various other techniques out there, like HeartMath, for example. When my boys were young, I went out to the school, to their classrooms, and I taught the kids HeartMath, which is getting in touch with their breathing and helping to regulate their central nervous systems. And doing a very kind of developmentally appropriate cursory presentation on what that meant. And some of the kids – so they're 18 now, this is when they were 6 – still tell me, like, “Oh, yeah. I remember that.” And so putting those seeds in early on, then, this is really, really important. So that's the first really foundational pillar that kind of everything else is built off of.

SHAUNA: Yeah, and I would guess all of these are things that we should be modeling ourselves as well.

KATE: 100%, yeah, because all of those pillars outlined in Bounce, you're talking about my book Bounce . . .

SHAUNA: Yes.

KATE: . . . apply to all of us across the lifespan. It's just that I wrote the book through the lens of the elementary school child because my kids were in elementary school at the time.

SHAUNA: Yeah, that makes sense. Okay, 

1. Navigating Friendship and Social Pressure.

KATE: Right, so this is a big one, right? Particularly if you're standing out as different in some way. And that pillar obviously was really important for me when I was growing up. I found myself oftentimes on the bullied end of bullying from looking different, and giant glasses, and my head was shaved a lot because of the surgery, and really, really hard. But it really hit me when our boys were in kindergarten. And one of them, the one who's really academically focused, was bullied a lot because he liked a football team that was different than the popular football team here. And it was just like, really? It's about a football team. But he was pushed in the mud, and dirt thrown on his jersey, and it was just really awful, right? So that's why this pillar came up as my second pillar. Such an important thing to teach kids to appreciate and understand individual difference, however that difference is going to come out. And so that's really at the core of it. So, how can we, from a very early age with our kids, help them to understand what it means to appreciate individual difference, what it means to not tear people down, what it means to build people up, connect with people on a human level, understand how our behavior and way of being could impact someone else in a not-so-great way? And so that's a really important piece of, I believe, what it means to instill a foundation in emotional intelligence in our kids. That's really at the core of that pillar.

SHAUNA: I really like that, because it's more of a focus on yourself, right? Instead of like, “People are bullying me. People are bullying me.” How do I model acceptance and kindness and emotional intelligence to navigate? That helps you both find others, be kind to others, but also to know what you're looking for to just have that emotional intelligence. I love that.

KATE: 100%, yes.

SHAUNA: Okay, 

1. Sustaining Focus and Attention.

KATE: Yeah, so, really important, right? Because attention is increasingly divided these days with social media and all the things. And so to be able to set a goal, and focus with intention on reaching that goal by breaking that down into bite-sized pieces, is a really important skill for our kids to start developing early on. It's going to help them in the classroom. It's going to help them on the playing field. It's going to help them in extracurriculars. It's going to help them in all domains of their life and so really, really important. And the first pillar, with the modulation of the stress response really plays into that, you know? The better we get at modulating our stress response, the more able we're going to be able to focus and attend to what we want to accomplish and where we want to go.

SHAUNA: Yeah, that makes sense. 

1. Developing Courage. 

That feels like a big one.

KATE: So courage, so, so important, exactly. That courage, developing the ability to take that first step forward when it feels scary. Enter that room that feels frightening. Speak up in class when you don't really want to, when you feel like everybody else has the answer, but you don't. So it's really about helping our kids understand that it's okay to fail. It's okay to not succeed the first time out of the gate. And how can we help them develop that skill, that capacity, to get back up when they've been knocked down, and try something from a slightly different angle, try again when it feels too hard. And it can really apply to so much of what our kids are experiencing early. And it's important for us to be able to do the same thing as parents.

SHAUNA: Yeah, I feel that as Mama Dragons, we sometimes have to go testify in court buildings or spaces and share our stories. And that is really scary. But I think that if we're able to model that for our kids – which I feel like a lot of our queer kids are just ahead of us on that. Every time I go down to the Capitol building, there are all of these youth that are there testifying. And I'm like, “I'm so proud of you! I think you're going to be okay! “

KATE: So cool, yeah, to advocate for themselves, yeah, absolutely, so powerful.

SHAUNA: Yeah, and then I feel like that flows nicely into 

1. Building Motivation.

Which can be hard to instill in my children sometimes because they've had these extraordinary things that have knocked them down, legitimately, really difficult things. So, building motivation can be really a struggle.

KATE: Absolutely, so much so. And so motivation, we look at extrinsic motivation and intrinsic motivation. And obviously, both are important. But the ultimate goal is to help kids, once again, appreciate their own unique context, appreciate who they are and what they want to accomplish, a process. It doesn't happen all at once, a button that we can push, but so that motivation comes from the inside out based on passion, direction, that sort of thing. But again, a process to get to that point, right? And external motivation is quite a powerful thing, particularly earlier on. But we want to help kids understand themselves so that, that intrinsic motivation can really take root, and they can move forward. Like, for example, you mentioned the kids down at the Capitol advocating for themselves and wanting certain things to happen, and being there, and doing it, and they're in it. That's an example of being intrinsically motivated to make something happen, and that's a very powerful thing.

SHAUNA: Yeah, I love that. 

1. Finding Confidence.

KATE: Yeah, so confidence, really important, right? Because if we're not believing in ourselves, if we're not believing that something is possible, that we're going to be able to make something happen, or just accomplish something in general, it's going to make it really hard for us. So, we want to teach our kids that it's okay to try again when it doesn't work out the first time, to keep pushing from another angle. And the more they take those chances, those risks, the more they do something, the easier it's going to get. And as a result of that, their confidence is going to grow. So, again, doesn't happen overnight. And might be some – it's not a linear process by any means. Maybe they'll try one thing one day, or another thing the next week, or whatever. But the point is, keep coming back. Keep trying. Measure or notice those small successes along the way, like the micro-wins. And as those accumulate, those will help to build confidence as well.

SHAUNA: Yeah, that's a good one to think about. Okay, the final one is 

1. Creating Optimism in these trying times.

KATE: Right, yeah. That's a hard one, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So optimism, super, super important. And so our minds, as human beings, particularly if we are contending with challenge, or facing obstacles, or what have you, tend to go to the negative, all the “woulda, coulda, shoulda,” the negative self-talk loops, all of it. And so we want to help kids, we want to help ourselves, to see the possibilities on the other side of the challenges. And so, we do that – well, one way that we do that is by writing down at the end of each day, 3 to 5 things that did go well on the day, during the day, such that we're not just focusing on all those “woulda, coulda, shoulda’s,” and we're seeing – even if it's very, very small – something that went well. And over time, we keep track of those things, really powerful to look back at. And so, our hope is to be creating sort of more of a neutral lens. Or maybe we can tip a little bit towards the positive. But we don't want to be mired in that fully negative space, because that really is the opposite of optimism. It makes our glass have nothing in it, as opposed to having our glass be at least half full.

SHAUNA: Something I've heard recommended is a gratitude meditation, or something along that line, to find the things that you're thankful for, that you're grateful for, that are going well because it is easy, I think, to get bogged down in the hard because there's so much hard.

KATE: So much hard, and we've got to acknowledge the hard. And we've got to contend with the hard. So none of this is wiping out the hard, but it's helping to balance the hard. It's helping to create that more neutral lens, as opposed to just focusing on all the things that are hard and going wrong.

SHAUNA: Okay, stepping away, can we talk about what that means for parents?

KATE: Sure, absolutely. So again, stepping away, sort of at the core, the message is finding the way, or a way, that works for you to modulate your stress response. And so it's that technique developed by Herbert Benson that I teach most readily. But there are other ways. It could be through exercise. It could be through sitting out on the porch or getting some sunlight and fresh air in the morning with a hot cup of tea, all of these things. But I really do believe, and research validates this, that having a way to, sort of a breath technique that helps to modulate your central nervous system on top of all the other things is really, really important. But stepping away is more than that. It's about stepping outside of the chaos when the chaos becomes too intense. You know, taking that step back, as opposed to driving harder into the midst of it. Sometimes that means stepping into a different room and breathing for a few minutes. Maybe it means stepping into another room and turning on some music. Maybe it means going for a walk around the block or a run. Maybe it means calling a friend, all of these different ways that we can plug in to things or people that will help us to optimize our overall sense of well-being because we're trying to make sure that, for the most part, we're showing up in a space where we can respond to stressors as opposed to react. And so, stepping away is a way of saying, “Hmm, okay. What steps or what can you put into place and implement that will help you optimize your own sense of well-being as a parent, so that you can show up fully, responding as opposed to reacting?”

SHAUNA: Initially, I think my feeling of stepping away was guilt. Like, “Oh, no. My kid's in crisis, or this is going on in our family. How am I supposed to just step away? That's unrealistic.”

KATE: Right.

SHAUNA: But I feel like you have some real actionable items that are useful in any situation.

KATE: 100%, and that's the key, right? These are action steps that we can implement into our day-to-day, so we can show up more fully, because all of this – the stepping away piece is, sort of a title that describes the process of optimizing our own sense of well-being so that we can actually step in more fully, you know? So we're definitely not talking about abandoning our family in crisis or anything like that. It's how can we optimize so that we can show up as the best versions of ourselves to help manage through and beyond the crisis, or the situation, or whatever it is?

SHAUNA: Yeah, I was on a flight recently, and the whole like, put your mask on first, just – it feels the same to me. You can't help your family if you are in crisis yourself. You have to manage your emotions. You have to be resilient in order to care for your family, even in the worst of crises, right?

KATE: 100%. And you know, it's an example of sort of coming up, as I mentioned before we started recording, I think I work out at Seattle Children's Hospital with my therapy dog, Wally, and it's really powerful, some of the situations that we encounter when we go in to visit. And some of the kids are really, really sick, and the parents are there at their bedside for weeks, sometimes months at a time. And it's a very delicate balance, but an important balance. Like, parents are going to be there fully, going to be managing these situations fully. But how can they also implement small steps, small strategies to care for themselves within that context? And one of the most powerful things they can do is the modulation of their stress response through a breath technique because they can do that anywhere. You know, they can do that bedside, they can do that as you were talking because I mean, there's no leaving, that kid needs you. But you've also, at the same time, got to figure out how to take care of yourself to the point where you're able to show up, fully. Easier said than done.

SHAUNA: It is easier said than done. Some listeners will know, my middle kid had childhood cancer, and it was during that year of chemotherapy and radiation that I trained for a marathon. And I would do it early in the dark. But just having something where I could move my body and think about something else, it really is powerful. And it's really hard to do. But giving yourself a chance to focus on you and your needs.

KATE: Absolutely love that example. Which marathon did you run?

SHAUNA: Austin.

KATE: Nice, nice. That's awesome. And that must have really felt good when you actually did that. And I bet your child was watching. I bet they saw what you were doing and were happy for you, too? 

SHAUNA: Yeah, well, he was actually 2 when he had cancer, so he didn't really know. All of my children were tiny, 4 to 10 months old at diagnosis. And so, yeah. It was really hard. But my husband saw it, and it was a very emotional experience, and really healing in ways. And I know not everybody has time or inclination to run a marathon, right? But like you said, the little things, some of the things you mentioned in your book were like doing art.

KATE: Yeah.

SHAUNA: Or reading, or making a delicious meal. Something that feeds you personally, makes you fuller to be able to help your family.

KATE: 100%, yes. So powerful. And they can be these smaller things, right? It doesn't have to be these huge, sweeping changes. And I absolutely love that. And I love the example of the marathon, that's awesome.

SHAUNA: Yeah, boundaries and independence. That feels like a tricky space sometimes to navigate when we're trying to teach our kids independence and resilience but we're also trying to help them. Like, any advice?

KATE: Yeah, that's such a great question, and there's not an easy line. But it's, again, it goes back to knowing your child, knowing kind of where their threshold is for trying to solve problems on their own, working things out on their own, and really keeping a keen eye out for what is their experience in whatever it is that's happening, and where's the point where we as parents might need to step in a little bit more robustly. Or where's the point where, might feel a little scary, but let's let them work on this for a little bit longer on their own, you know? That kind of a thing. We had a couple of academic experiences here where one of our boys was having a lot of trouble in his algebra class. And I could have been on email with the teacher every day. But I really didn't want to do that. I really wanted to use this as an opportunity for him to try to work it out in terms of, “How can I advocate for myself? How can I find the extra support that I need to maybe connect the dots on the next test?” or what have you. And it ended up being a really good experience. But also recognize that there might have been a point where that balance tipped too much and I did have to step in again. That kind of a thing can apply across so many different situations.

SHAUNA: That feels related to letting them fail. Sometimes letting our kids fail, that's so hard for me to just say, “Okay, well.” But it's a life lesson, right? It's hard to know where that balance is.

KATE: So hard. And there's really no easy answer there, right? It's kind of assessing the situation, knowing your kid, knowing what the threshold is, all these things. But yeah, it's really, really hard.

SHAUNA: Yeah. Any other advice or things that you want our listeners to understand about resilience?

KATE: Yeah, well, so, really, the importance of – I would encourage everyone to really hold on to the idea of the possibility on the other side of the challenges, you know, both for themselves as parents, as well as for their kids because there's always possibility out there, and to really hold on to that notion is important.

SHAUNA: I really love that. That's something that I think is important, too. I'm going to have to re-listen to this on the daily and remind myself. There's possibilities on the other side. And sometimes they're not what we expect them to look like, right?

KATE: Exactly. And that's exactly right and staying open to that very fact that it might not, the outcome might not look like you had expected. But there's still going to be possibility there.

SHAUNA: Yeah. I love that. Thank you. Okay, we have a couple of questions that we like to close with. The first one is out of our name, Mama Dragons. It came out of this fierceness that we feel for protecting our queer children. So, what are you fierce about?

KATE: I am fierce about actually, also, protecting my children and protecting my dogs.

SHAUNA: What dogs do you have?

KATE: Well, I've got Wally, who's a Brittany Doodle. He's the certified therapy dog. And then I have Squirt, who is a 10-year-old Westie, who is adorable. And he is – he and Wally are best friends. So they are a huge part of our life here.

SHAUNA: That's adorable. I'm a dog lover. That is great. Okay, the last one is, what is bringing you joy right now because the world and our country and everything can feel really heavy. So we like to focus on what is bringing you joy?

KATE: Yeah, that's a very interesting question. And it's something that I'm trying to get more in touch with in the new year here because I realized that I was maybe teetering on the edge of burnout there at the end of last year. But that's a whole other story. But, what I've done is I've intentionally taken a bit of a step back. So I found some really good books that I've been listening to. And I've been doing that every afternoon, after a really great workout. I found this really great trainer. So I'm getting stronger and those are the things that really bring me a lot of joy right now.

SHAUNA: I love that. And resilience, right? They bring you joy and resilience. Joy brings resilience, in my experience.

KATE: Exactly. Yes. Yes, and really important to hold on to that and not lose sight of it like it's so easy to do when you're that in drive for more, and you're working so hard, and you're moving a million miles an hour, and all that. So, yes, that's a great point.

SHAUNA: Yeah, okay. Thank you so much for this conversation, this has been so great. I appreciate your time.

KATE: Well, thank you for having me. This has been a lot of fun, so thank you.

SHAUNA: Awesome, thanks.

SARA: Thank you so much for joining us here In the Den. Did you know that Mama Dragons offers an eLearning program called Parachute? This is an interactive learning platform where you can learn more about how to affirm, support, and celebrate the LGBTQ+ people in your life. Learn more at Mamadragons.org/parachute or find the link in the episode show notes under links.

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