Orthodox, Queer, and Refusing to Leave

Imagine belonging to a faith that is fighting to keep you out—and refusing to leave. Some of you in our Mama Dragons community know this experience well. Some of you are still living it, loving your families and your traditions while also working, every day, to make change from within. That tension—the push and pull between belonging and exclusion—is not unique to any one faith. Today In the Den, Sara is joined by Miryam Kabakov, a national leader who has spent more than three decades walking alongside LGBTQ+ people in Orthodox communities. She is the Executive Director and co-founder of Eshel, an organization that provides support, resources, and community for LGBTQ+ Orthodox individuals and their families—and is helping to quietly, steadily shift what’s possible from the inside. Sara and Miryam talk about what it means to stay in a tradition that doesn’t always make room for you, how families navigate love and religious commitment, and why change—especially in deeply traditional spaces—often begins with small, brave acts of connection.

Special Guest: Miryam Kabakov

Miryam Kabakov is a national leader who has worked for more than three decades on the inclusion of LGTBQ+ individuals in the Orthodox world. Miryam is Executive Director and co-founder of Eshel, a national organization that supports LGBTQ+ Orthodox individuals and their families. Prior to being a leader at Eshel, Miryam was the New York and National Program Director of AVODAH: The Jewish Service Corps, Director of LGBT programming at the JCC Manhattan, Social Worker at West Side Federation for Senior and Supportive Housing, and was the first social worker at Footsteps. Miryam received her MSW from the Wurzweiler School of Social Work.  She also received a certificate in fundraising from the University of St. Thomas and a certificate in program evaluation from the University of Washington, and has a background in informal Jewish education from Brandeis University.  She founded the New York Orthodykes, a support group for lesbian, bisexual and transgender Orthodox women, and is the editor of Keep Your Wives Away From Them: Orthodox Women, Unorthodox Desires (North Atlantic Books, May 2010), a collection of writings about the challenges and joys of LBT Orthodox Jews and winner of the Golden Crown Literary Award.

Links from the Show:

• Find Eshel online
• Eshel’s Calendar of Events
• Join Mama Dragons today

In the Den is made possible by generous donors like you. Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today at www.mamadragons.org. 

Transcript

SARA: Hi everyone. Welcome to In the Den with Mama Dragons, a podcast and community to support, educate, and empower parents on the journey of raising happy and healthy LGBTQ+ humans. I’m your host, Sara LaWall. I’m a Mama Dragon myself and an advocate for our queer community. And I’m so glad to be part of this wild and wonderful parenting journey with all of you. Thanks for joining us. We’re so glad you’re here.

Mama Dragons began as a community for parents, mostly moms, coming out of the Mormon church who really were looking for a way to support their kids. And we grew from there. So many of you in this community don’t have to imagine what it means to belong to a faith that is fighting to keep you and your kid out, but you don’t want to leave. You see opportunity to change from within, that faith is so important to you. You know this experience well. Some of you are still living it, loving your families and your faith traditions while also working, every day, to make change. That tension, that push and pull between belonging and exclusion, isn’t unique to any one faith. It shows up in different ways across religious communities, including within the Orthodox Jewish world, where LGBTQ+ individuals and their families are navigating deeply rooted traditions alongside a longing for authenticity and for participation and a life of faith and connection. Today, that is where our conversation is centered. We’re joined by Miryam Kabakov, a national leader who has spent more than three decades working alongside LGBTQ+ people in Orthodox communities. She is the Executive Director and co-founder of Eshel, an organization that provides support, resources, and community for LGBTQ+ Orthodox individuals and their families, and is helping to quietly, steadily shift what’s possible in the Orthodox community  from the inside. Miryam’s work lives at the intersection of care and change. From her leadership with AVODAH: The Jewish Service Corps, to her early role with Footsteps, she has been part of building pathways for those who stay and those who leave. She also founded the New York Orthodykes – love this name –  creating one of the first support networks for lesbian, bisexual, and transgender Orthodox women. Our conversation today, we are going to talk about what it means to stay in a tradition that doesn’t always make room for you and how families navigate that religious commitment and love for each other, and why change – especially in deeply traditional spaces often begins with small, brave acts of connection. Miryam, welcome to In the Den! We are so excited to have you with us.

MIRYAM: Thank you so much for having me. This is such an honor to be here. And I want to share that our very first parent retreat – so we have retreats for orthodox parents. We have one actually coming up in two weeks. There’s still a few spots left if anyone is listening out there who knows an orthodox family that needs this, you can find about it on our website eshelonline.org – But I’ll say that our very first one, which was about 13 years ago, we actually found our speaker came from San Francisco and she had started the Family Acceptance Project out of San Francisco State University and a Chrisitan woman who had done a series of documentaries about families who have LGBTQ children. And the one that she showed us that resonated the most deeply, was the one about the Mormon family. And it was just kind of shocking because you just had to substitute Jesus for HaShem which is the Hebrew catch-all phrase for God. And it was the same story. It was the same story socially, how the parents struggled to tell their community and to support their child. And no matter what, they were going to love their child and continue to raise him Mormon. And so the struggles were exactly the same. I can’t really remember anything that felt unusual or different in that story. And so then we realized, we are not alone as a family as a community of Orthodox Jews in this. It does cross many faith lines. And that was very inspirational for us because we’re in it together.

SARA: Absolutely. I love that story. Thank you for sharing that. It’s been really fascinating and beautiful to read about Eshel and the work that you’re doing and all of the struggles within Orthodox Judaism, and see those parallels with the Mama Dragons community and the work many of our parents have been doing in their life experiences too.

MIRYAM: Yeah.

SARA: But for those listeners who don’t know much about Judaism, I wonder if we can just do a little bit of a primer on Judaism, and Orthodox Judaism, in particular and in particular where Orthodox Judaism fits in the world of Judaism and how they approach questions of gender and sexuality within the community.

MIRYAM: Sure. So I am not a historian. And there’s just a lot of historical nuances and things that shaped identities around Orthodoxy throughout the last several hundred years. And even just the denominations within Judaism – which the Reform, Reconstructionists, Conservative, Orthodox denominations. Those are the four basic denominations – is kind of a new invention. It’s only in the last, I want to say 150, 200 years. So I would say that Orthodoxy is the most stringent in terms of observance. There’s very strict, clear rules about how we observe the rules and the laws of Judaism. It’s a very legal system and it’s tied up with spirituality and ritual. And within Orthodoxy itself, there are many different sects and strains. And some of it’s based on geography, where people came from in Europe in which there’s the Hasidic movement which is based on having a Rabbi at the center. And that was the person you always asked questions from and you got guidance from. So there’s a lot of nuance and color within Orthodoxy. So I can’t really say there’s one thing. Right? And a lot of it is also based on society, where the influence of the outside wherever you are situated. There are groups within Orthodoxy that do not expose themselves to television or media, and there are those that do and are just living in the real world, the secular world, by day and they go home and they live within their Orthodox world in their home. So I’m differentiating because we also serve the LGBTQ community within Orthodoxies. And those people come to us from all the sects of Orthodoxy because they don’t have anywhere to go really so we’re like that place. And they desperately need community. And our events cater to them religiously. The parents, however, are mostly from Modern Orthodoxy, which is more in the secular world by day and then living their religious life parallel to that. And that’s because those from the more cloistered communities don’t really want to ask outside of their relationship with their Rabbi or their Rebbe. That’s who they’re really asking for guidance from. And in Modern Orthodoxy it’s a little bit more like, well let me Google this or let me look it up on Psychology Today and let’s see what’s going on out there int the world. Anyway, that’s sort of in a nutshell. So we work with parents who are kind of like professional in the secular world, but really, really, really care about their Orthodox communities and are very tied to them deeply. Some of them pray every single day in the synagogue with their communities and very, very connected to their spiritual leaders as well. And for them, when their child comes out to them, they might know a gay person from their job or from the media. But within their families or their communities, it’s a little bit unheard of, mostly because people were not coming out. But, since Eshel has been around for 15 years, LGBTQ people are coming out more and more within Orthodoxy. So then, after a few years of working with LGBTQ people, we’re still doing that work. We were like, Oh, now we actually need to provide a place for parents to go because they have no place to go. So that’s when we started working with parents.

SARA: Yeah. What are parents and families taught about queerness or even when they have an LGBTQ+ child? What does Orthodoxy have to say about that?

MIRYAM: So I don’t think they’re taught anything and that’s part of the problem. It’s not considered something that we teach about. It’s sort of, there’s some references to it in The Bible or in The Rabbinic Texts and not good things, not really good things. But there is also things that The Rabbinic Text have said about gender fluidity or sexuality being fluid and different, very human, understandings of people and nuanced. And so there is a lot of place within our tradition to have an understanding for difference. And yet, maybe because of other factors like homophobia or people feeling threatened that their whole social structure will fall apart, being LGBTQ within Orthodoxy has never really been something that’s been accepted publicly. But privately, people are more compassionate. There have been a lot of Rabbinic leaders who have showed a lot of compassion to our people and our parents privately. But to come out publicly, it’s been a little bit harder because that then signals some kind of maybe political leaning or socially liberal community. And so that then becomes a little bit of a threat to the growth of that community if you have that, if you give that impression. And not every Rabbi wants to do that because they want to keep their doors open wide for everybody. So I can’t say that, as Orthodox people, we learn anything proactively about LGBTQ identities. It’s more like, “Oh, and by the way, there’s this text or there’s this thing that says it’s forbidden.” But then, when we apply modern life and we apply those texts to our modern lives, that’s when you have to go to seek spiritual counseling or Rabbinic counseling around, “Well how do I apply those texts to my life. This is the reality of my life. This is the reality of my children’s lives. So what are we supposed to do now?” And so it’s really like the parents bringing this up to their leaders. And that’s why we dove into the parent work because our overall mission is to make Orthodoxy a place where LGBTQ people can belong like they belonged the day before they came out the closet in their synagogues, you know? And in order to do that, we needed to be able to reach the leaders. And the parents were the way to do that. They’re the ones who don’t leave their communities. They’re key stake holders. They stay. They’re very invested in the growth of their communities. So if they can speak up for their children, then the leaders will follow. That is our theory of change.

SARA: That’s beautiful. And when parents first come to you and find you, what are some of the biggest fears and concerns that you hear? Is there a trend that you’ve heard over the years or is that changing?

MIRYAM: Yeah. So there’s a few things that happen at once. One is, if the child is in a day-school, like if they’re below the age of 18 and they’re still in school, will they be rejected, will they be ostracized, will they be bullied. Those are like the basic needs, concerns like will they be okay and safe. And then, beyond that it’s, will they leave Orthodoxy? Will they spiritually not have what they had because they don’t want to stay in a place that is very rejecting of them? So there’s a big fear about that. And there’s a lot of sadness when that happens, and it does happen a lot. Our work is to make it so that it doesn’t have to happen. Like you had started to say in the beginning about the Mormon community like, “We want to raise our children Mormon. We want to keep them in the fold.” And no one can really take that away from us. And that’s sort of what our attitude is about Orthodoxy. So they’re very, very worried about their kids becoming no longer religious. And then there’s always this like, if the parent has turned a corner in their acceptance, then they say, “Well, bottom-line is my child has to be safe and happy.” And they see struggles,  emotional struggles that are really painful to watch. And then, at that point they might think, “You know what? I just need them to be happy. I just need them to be emotionally stable. And if that means no longer going to the Orthodox synagogue or even being Orthodox, then – while it's really sad and hard – I have to support them wherever they’re at.” That’s not something that any one of them wants to do.

SARA: Yeah. Also a very common story in our Mama Dragons community from all different kinds of faith backgrounds and Christian faith backgrounds, you hear that a lot. I had to leave the church because there was no other choice.

MIRYAM: Right.

SARA: Because my child didn’t feel safe and that tension around, what does it mean to leave. It’s a very difficult process, I think, for some people.

MIRYAM: Yeah.

SARA: And yet, I have read some of the articles about Eshel and on your website and have been really struck by how queer folks have reported that Eshel has helped their parents so much and helped them keep that relationship. They’re parents support them and keep that relationship which is really inspiring to read that the work you’re doing is helping parents find a way to stay in relationship with their LFBTQ+ kids.

MIRYAM: Right. And a lot of it because they’ve found each other. And that’s why we go on retreats together. We take them out of their community and bring them to a third space. A community where they can be completely open about their children, all of their children. And then they find people who are experiencing what they experience which is what you want. You want experiences and people who can relate to you. And the other thing that parents fear is that they will be ostracized themselves, that they will lose their friends. And I’m sure that happens in your community as well. And this is a place where everybody’s there for the same reason. And so very deep friendships form and it’s really beautiful. And they stay connected with each other throughout the year. So that’s part of it is the community we’ve built amongst the parents. It’s very, very powerful.

SARA: Yeah. It’s beautiful. What are some of the most common struggles that you see that LGBTQ+ Orthodox people face?

MIRYAM: Well, I think the rejection is the biggest thing. It’s the most painful thing. And it’s the thing that makes them all want to run away which I’ve experienced that myself. It’s really hard. And it takes a lot to stay connected to your faith when the structures that hold your faith and purvey your faith are rejecting you. There’s a lot of anger. It’s like, “You don’t need me. I don’t need you.” And the truth is, that’s where I say, “It belongs to me, it belongs to you. It doesn’t belong to that structure.” And for some people, they are one. And for those people, they leave. They don’t observe any more. They can’t. And often they find their way back through our events and our weekends together because it’s reuniting with what they’ve always had but in a new way, and in a way that accepts them. So I think there’s a lot of struggle with faith because of the rejection. And there’s also really painful things that happen with family members. You know, family members won’t come – if the person wants to get married, they won’t come to the wedding – you can never, ever change that. You can never get that back. Hopefully you only have one wedding in your life or whatever. It’s your wedding. You want it to be attended by your closest people. And so when family members don’t show up for those things, it creates a rift that lasts a long time. And there’s also just not allowing the LGBTQ member to spend time with other family members, like especially little children. I’ve seen that and that’s just so horrible. Like whatever, that aunt or the uncle or the cousin, it’s just painful. It’s painful to be cut off from your roots.

SARA: So very painful. I was really struck in an interview with Rabbi Steve Greenburg, one of your founding directors of Eshel, who was talking about how queer folks used to either be silent – which we’ve seen across faith traditions – just sticking it out and being quiet, marrying against their needs or someone else’s needs, or living a life of loneliness, or leaving. And now what’s happening is, with the work of Eshel, is that they’re supporting folks to try to claim this identity that you can be real about who you are and that you can stay in the faith.

MIRYAM: Right.

SARA: And it was really interesting to hear all of those different scenarios, none of them great, except how do we help people be real about who they are and stay.

MIRYAM: Exactly. How do we help people be real? And that’s really what we’re trying to do, be real to themselves so that they can be real with others, and authentic and somehow withstand a lot of rejection and pain.

SARA: Is there a story in the work that you’ve done that you might share that captures that complexity about the power that you’re doing?

MIRYAM: So I guess, I’m thinking back to our very first years of doing the retreat, and this comes up a lot, but the first time we had one of our weekends away, they’re designed to replicate the experience of a Shabbat, a Sabbath, with all of its rules and regulations, all the beauty, all the esthetics that go along with making a very beautiful meal on Friday night, and the Challah and the wine and the blessings, and the singing, and the prayers – joyous, joyous prayers – and you’re like in this, we took people to this retreat place where we weren’t allowing people to drive in for the time of the Sabbath for 25 hours. There’s no cars coming in or out. So it’s like this Island in Time, they call it. It’s just like a time away. And we ask everyone to put away their cell phones. And, even if they no longer observe the rules of not using electricity or not doing creative acts during that 25 hours, we ask people in the public spaces to do that. And I would say about half the people no longer observed any of those rules, just simply couldn’t keep it up anymore because it just represented to them the pain of what they were rejected from. And so we didn't know who would come to our very first retreat, you know. And we have about 120 people sign up. And we didn’t know how it would be. And it was really wonderful and beautiful. And it was everything that we wanted it to be. And then afterwards, we do an evaluation after every program. And we got so much feedback and the most powerful feedback were from the people that had left everything behind. We thought, “Oh, those people are going to feel oppressed again. This is reminding them of all the horrible things that they grew up with and the people that rejected them.” And so there was some of that. And there always is some of that. But the most beautiful things that we heard were from those people who had left it all behind. And one particular man shared and they said, “This is the one Shabbat that I can live in my truth during the year.” 

SARA: Wow.

MIRYAM: Then continued to come back year after year. It’s an annual event. So it’s like living in your truth for one weekend of the year. And the truth is, “I am who I am AND I’m an Orthodox Jew who had to leave it all behind and I didn’t want to.” So that’s their truth when they say living in my truth, it’s all of you together. And it can be all together. And so that’s sort of like for me, that was a moment of this is really, really important. Not just those who can manage to stay in it, but even for those who’ve left it. They’ve left. They’re spiritually starving. They’re very thirsty for something. And they can’t get it back every day of the year because they’re living in some very painful places both inward and outwardly, facing that rejection all the time. But if they have at least one weekend of the year where they could actually be peaceful and at one and a whole human being, then hopefully they can carry that into the year with them. And then we try to stay in touch. We have a lot of events in certain cities and then there’s a lot of online community to help people stay in touch.

SARA: That’s a beautiful story. That made me really think about the power of ritual, of being fed by our faith and how it fed us. But then being together in a community with a shared experience can be a really beautiful way to experience that without all the hard parts.

MIRYAM: Right.

SARA: Are there orthodox communities, now, that are popping up that are open to LGBTQ+ people, that have that identity?

MIRYAM: That’s a great question. We actually started this project over 10 years ago. Eshel’s been around for 15 years. So around 10 or so years ago somebody reached out to us. And she was a Christian minister. And she said, “I see what you’re doing out in the Jewish world. And I did the same thing in my Christian community. And I have a family foundation and I want to support you.” And we hadn’t received any funding from any Jewish organizations, nobody. And that was really, really powerful for me, right? It's like we’re all connected in some way around this. And so with that funding we started a program called The Welcoming Shuls Project, which shul is yiddish for school or synagogue. So her project was Welcoming Congregation. So we sort of modeled it after what she was doing. But we did it very, very differently because what we needed to do was have private conversations with Rabbi’s, leaders of these shuls, promising them that we would never tell anybody that we were talking to them about being more inclusive because there’s a lot of social ostracization because of that. And so with that promise of confidentiality, we’ve been able to reach out to over 300 Orthodox synagogues within Orthodoxy with all the different nuances of what that is to over 300 Rabbi’s to talk to us about whether they feel like they can be holding their LGBTQ members, and in what way, and to what degree. And so out of that, I would say there’s about 50 of them that have come out of the closet as more welcoming. And their names are on our website. But the other thing that this project does is that when we get reach out from LGBTQ, “Where can I remain orthodox?”  or “Who can I talk to?” So then we have this whole list of 300 Rabbis that we do a match between them, like who’s going to fit, geographically is it near you, or do you want to move to another place. So it’s an amazing project that has opened a lot of doors for our people and also helped Orthodoxy become a little bit more accepting and more open as well.

SARA: That’s beautiful. I love that whole story. And it makes me curious if you can share a little bit more about the origin story of Eshel?

MIRYAM: So before Eshel started, there was a lot of groups under the radar forming Orthodox LGBTQ groups. That’s when I started my Orthodyke Group, which had actually started in Jerusalem a few years before that. Not started by me, but by some people that I met there. And then I moved back to America. I was living in Israel, but I moved back and then I brought the Orthodykes, that group, with me in the sense that I started one in New York City. And there were other parallel groups going on. And so there was a lot of people who had already found each other in the Orthodox LGBTQ world. And that helped form the basis of Eshel, and the early board members, the early founders, and helped us go from these hidden groups below the radar of there was no media about us, they were very, very confidential groups that had formed. And it helped us come out from under and be like the light was shining on us. All of the sudden, we’re visible. We’re here. We’re part of the Jewish community. And the broader Jewish community should be supporting us. And slowly but surely, a lot of the Jewish communal landscape is not Orthodox. They’re concerned about a lot of other kinds of things like safety, antisemitism, Israel, Jewish education, but not necessarily in the Orthodox sphere. So Orthodox people were not really supporting us because they were like, “You shouldn’t be gay, so why should we support you.” And then the Jewish community were like, “Why be Orthodox? So we’re not going to support you.” So it took a long time for us to explain that actually these two things are not mutually exclusive and you shouldn’t have to choose and it’s not fair that you have to choose. And you can’t actually tell an Orthodox person, “Why don’t you just go be a Reformed Jew,” for an example like that. And it doesn’t happen like that. They might choose to. It’s not an obvious choice. So that’s sort of how we began and that’s sort of how we made a space for ourselves because we found each other in these confidential groups and built up a community where we all felt, all of us who were involved in those hidden groups, felt much stronger because of them. And we were able to come out and say, “Okay, it’s time for us to be taken more seriously.” And that’s when Eshel started.

SARA: Say more about the Orthodox versus Reform piece that you just spoke about because I think there are some ideas, particularly in the secular world, I would imagine we would hear people say, “Why not just go to a Reform congregation where you know their theology is open and accepting?” What is the obstacle, or why not for Orthodox folks?

MIRYAM: The part of the Reformed Judaism which is great for an Orthodox Jew who’s LGBTQ is that they are accepting and that’s a Jewish community that’s going to accept you. But it’s not your Jewish community. So I guess the differences are theologically it’s a very different understanding of what’s the truth or what’s maybe closer to the truth. So it’s hard to go from one to the other. Is the Torah the word of God and is it something that I’m obligated to observe versus the Reconstructionist movement is more of a historical understanding of evolution of Judaism, not a religious one. So that’s another denomination that, it’s just not the same. Yes, it’s the same religion. We’re all one people. We are many bodies. We are one soul. And that is what holds us together as a people. But there’s different understandings of the law, the Jewish law. And so if you don’t accept this different understanding of Jewish law, which is the basis of Jewish life, then you’re not going to be comfortable in this other scenario. And there are a lot of Orthodox Jews that have left and then refound themselves in Reformed Judaism and in different spaces and have enjoyed it. But there’s also an esthetic piece and just a ritual piece that if you are used to praying a certain way – and let’s say in a prayer space that takes, like say on a Shabbat morning, two and a half hours versus 45 minutes – It just doesn’t feel the same. And it’s not necessarily as – it’s not going to fill your cup in the same way, maybe.

SARA: Yeah.

MIRYAM: So there’s that, the ritual piece. I’m sure there are parallels in Christianity. I just don’t know what they are.

SARA: Absolutely. And I ask that question because I’m sure people get asked that a lot, right? Why don’t you just go to that place down the road?

MIRYAM: But I don’t want to go to that place. It’s not my place. I have a place. I want my own place where I was.

SARA: So very different, too. What advice would you give to a parent who is in this place of feeling caught between their religious commitments and community and their child’s identity?

MIRYAM: I would say, find other people like you. In the Jewish space, in the Orthodox space, it’s Eshel, I think, for parents. But wherever you are, find a group. Find a community of people that actually can relate to what you’re going through so that you can best support your child and know what’s the right thing for your kid because mostly all of our parents just want the best thing for their child. A lot of them come into our community with thinking the best thing has to be to stay Orthodox, or it has to not be LGBTQ. And over time, when they get the support that they need, they are able to actually hear what their child needs. And so in the airplane when they say, “Parents, put on your oxygen mask first,” that’s what I would say. Put on your oxygen mask first. Then you can help your child figure out how they can keep their oxygen flowing.

SARA: That is the first time I have heard it put that way. And I’ve interviewed a lot of people on this podcast. It’s so simple but it’s so true, right? When you figure out where you tend and mend to your own heart and your own needs, then there is space for you to understand your child differently.

MIRYAM: Right. Right. I mean, our parenting is contingent on us being healthy and us getting the support and love that we need for what we’re doing. There’s nothing harder than parenting. And there’s nothing more fulfilling. I mean, I shouldn’t say nothing. I should say that parenting is so hard and parenting is so fulfilling. And we need to be able to do it so that we can survive and thrive and our children are surviving and thriving. And we can only do it in community. And that’s our philosophy.

SARA: Yeah. I think culturally, societally, I think we are leaning into that now in a different kind of way. We’re kind of against that idea of keeping it quiet and being successful individuals or family units, I think. I’m watching it play out in all kinds of different ways where I’m at both in the church and without that people are realizing that life is really hard. And it’s hard to do it alone.

MIRYAM: Yes. It can’t be done alone. It can’t.

SARA: And yet, I watch our Jewish communities and that is where they really excel. That has been a sort of foundational, pivotal piece of Jewish community. I see that in my own community where there is only really one synagogue. But it is that understanding of here is the community to help us move through and understand our place in this experience called life.

MIRYAM: Yeah. And, I mean, that’s the power of the Jewish communities I’ve been a part of. And that is very common that, if you’re sick, there is an automatic meal train. If you need something, if you’re going through a hard time, and the community is right there for you. That’s the reason, that’s the power of it and that’s what we do. That’s how it functions. And then, if your kid comes out and your child is depressed or, God forbid, suicidal, how do you activate the meal train for that unless you tell people? And if you tell people, you risk a lot of other things, not getting the meal train, or not staying part of that community. And so it’s a very hard spot to be in.

SARA: Can you share a little bit about how Eshel works with the Trans community and parents of trans folks?

MIRYAM: Absolutely. I would say that we learned over time that we would have our support groups – we have four or five support groups a week so people should check us out and see what we have to offer – but within a short few, like a year or two, like the parent group that was meeting every month for support, it became very clear that the parents of the trans kids needed other kinds of support. It was a little bit more tactical questions about interventions, medical or hormones or surgery, or whatever pronoun changes, name changes, legal stuff. It was a whole other kettle of fish. So we started creating these support groups that are just for parents of trans kids. And so that’s been very wonderful because they really, really support each other. Nobody gives you a manual when you have a child, here’s how you raise your kid. And nobody gives you a manual for raising your kids who are LGBTQ. And nobody ever will give you – I mean hopefully we’ll create one one day – but we have the oral tradition of this in Eshel, the manual for raising your LGBTQ child within the Orthodox community. People are doing it. And it depends on the community. Obviously, it depends on the parent. But they’re doing it successfully, a lot of them, with a lot of struggle. So, specifically parents of trans kids, it’s just so many other things that they need help with. So we support them by bringing them together and helping them peer mentor each other and share success stories because they’re doing the work on the ground. So when I was going off on the tangent about nobody gives you a manual, they are writing it.

SARA: Yes.

MIRYAM: And there’s a binary in Orthodoxy, male, female. And when you walk into a synagogue you have to choose. Am I sitting in the male section or the female section? And so automatically – it’s like bathrooms – automatically you have to decide. So that’s a whole other thing. And so for some time, for example, the trans child or the gender-nonconforming child will stop going to synagogue completely because they have to make that choice at that time. So that’s like, how do we support parents through that? We bring them together. At our big retreat, a third of the parents have trans kids.

SARA: Wow.

MIRYAM: And they really, really learn a lot from each other and they help each other a lot.

SARA: That’s amazing. That’s really beautiful.

MIRYAM: Yeah.

SARA: I’m aware that there are some Rabbi’s that are active within your community and circle that are queer themselves.

MIRYAM: In our LGBTQ community?

SARA: Yeah.

MIRYAM: Yeah.

SARA: LGBTQ Rabbis, are they serving in a different denomination or are there some that are serving Orthodox communities?

MIRYAM: So currently, as far as we know, there are no Orthodox ordained Rabbis who are the leaders of a congregation, I think. There are Orthodox rabbis that work within Orthodox synagogues doing maybe education or something else, so leading an orthodox congregation, not yet. There, one of the speakers at our upcoming parent retreat runs a Rabbinical school, an Orthodox Rabbinical school, that has started to ordain gay men.

SARA: Wow.

MIRYAM: And so there will be, very soon, Orthodox LGBTQ leaders of congregations.

SARA: That’s exciting. That's interesting.

MIRYAM: Yeah.

SARA: It’ll be interesting to see that evolution.

MIRYAM: Yes, it will. It’s very exciting.

SARA: In the work that you’re doing, where particularly within the Orthodox world, where do you see hope when it comes to LGBTQ+ inclusion?

MIRYAM: I see a lot of hope with the Rabbis we speak with. I think they all want to do the right thing in their hearts. Whether they can publicly do that, is the question. There’s also the politics are changing and it’s much more polarized and we’re actually experiencing that, a little bit of backlash. But the pendulum is going to swing back. But I think that the more people hear the stories of our people, the more their hearts open. So that’s always a hopeful thing.

SARA: Yeah. Thank you. This has been a lovely conversation. I really just enjoyed getting to hear more about your work but also really appreciating the parallel worlds that Mama Dragons operates in and Eshel operates in. And it’s just so good to know that you are out there and a great place to send folks and to send Orthodox Jews in particular who are looking for very specific community and religious support. Thank you for doing all of that.

MIRYAM: You’re welcome. And thank you so much for doing what you’re doing. It’s so important. And thank you for having me. It’s great to talk with you.

SARA: Thanks so much for joining us here In the Den. We want to tell you about free, public QPR classes. QPR is question, persuade, refer and it is a powerful suicide prevention training designed to equip you with the skills and confidence to recognize warning signs and respond when someone you love may be in crisis. The training is online, secure, and just two hours long. It’s a small time commitment that can make a life-saving difference. You can register for this training on our website at mamadragons.org.

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