The State of the Organization at Mama Dragons

Today In the Den, we're going inside the Mama Dragons organization for a conversation with our Executive Director Liz Welch. We wanted to give folks a behind-the-scenes look at where we are today, what the organization has learned over the past few years, and where it's headed next. We'll talk about the challenges, the opportunities, and why this work feels more important than ever as more families are looking for hope, connection, and community. Like any nonprofit, Mama Dragons is made up of real people, mostly volunteers, dedicating themselves to keep this work going. We have celebrated incredible successes, weathered some difficult seasons, and continue to ask, "How do we best serve families in a world that keeps changing?" If Mama Dragons has ever been part of your story—or if you've wondered how movements like this keep going long after the headlines fade—we think you'll really appreciate this conversation.

Special Guest: Liz Welch

Liz has extensive advocacy and lobbying experience in LGBTQ+ and religious freedom at the federal, state, and local levels. While at the ACLU, Liz led a National Faith Coalition that supported efforts to advance protections for LGBTQ+ communities while preserving the rights of faith communities. She also co-facilitated a transgender education and advocacy project, working to train and support trans activists in advocating for their rights across the country. Additionally, Liz is a trained mediator, experienced facilitator, and event coordinator for everything from hyper-local Pride events to coordinating the rallies at the Supreme Court of the United States for the biggest cases of our time. She is the proud mother to Mariah, who is a public defender and an avid baker.

Links from the Show:

• Join Mama Dragons today
• Find Support Resources through Mama Dragons
• Mama Dragons Educational Offerings
• Mama Dragons Programs
• Parachute E-learning Program

In the Den is made possible by generous donors like you. Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today at www.mamadragons.org. 

Transcript

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SARA: Hi everyone. Welcome to In the Den with Mama Dragons, a podcast and community to support, educate, and empower parents on the journey of raising happy and healthy LGBTQ+ humans. I’m your host, Sara LaWall. I’m a Mama Dragon myself and an advocate for our queer community. And I’m so glad to be part of this wild and wonderful parenting journey with all of you. Thanks for joining us. We’re so glad you’re here.

Hello, Mama Dragons! Today, we are going inside our organization for a special conversation with our Executive Director, Liz Welch. We wanted to give folks a behind-the-scenes look at where we are today, what the organization has learned over the past few years, especially under Liz's tenure, and what is the vision for the future? Where are we headed next? So we're going to talk about the challenges, the opportunities, and why this work feels more important than ever. As we know and have experienced, our families are really looking for connection and community and places for action and hope. Like any other nonprofit, Mama Dragons is made up of real people, mostly volunteers, dedicating themselves to keeping this incredible work going. And we've celebrated some incredible successes. We've weathered some difficult seasons. And the organization continues to ask, how do we best serve families in a world that keeps changing? If Mama Dragons has been a part of your story, or if you're new to the podcast and you're more curious about how you can connect and engage with us, I think you'll really appreciate this conversation. So, Liz, welcome back to In the Den. It's really great to have you with us.

LIZ: Sara, thanks for inviting me. I love being part of this. The podcast has just been such a joy to watch grow and win awards, and do amazing things, and I love being on here.

SARA: Well, we've been talking for a while as we've been on Mighty and watching Mama Dragons on socials about the incredible growth this organization has had in such a short period of time, particularly under your leadership. And so we thought, oh, this is a perfect time to share more of that with folks, and to share kind of a state of the state of the organization, if you will. And I was thinking back, you became our executive director in spring of 2024.

LIZ: I did.

SARA: Which was a complicated year, that election year. It's hard to kind of go back there. But before we dive into that and where we've come, I wonder if you can take us back and share with folks who are newer to the community and the podcast a little of the Mama Dragons origin story. 

LIZ: Well, you know, Mama Dragons started well over a decade ago with mothers who, when the LDS church issued a clarification around people being gay, and the mothers of LGBT children in Utah, really were challenged by that. And it really created a break for them of, how do you hold your faith and hold your children close at the same time? And so they started Mama Dragons through a text chain. That is the spark that started the movement for this work. At that point, the mother's groups weren't as prolific as they are now. And they definitely started that in a conservative space, in a conservative faith, which is one of the things that makes Mama Dragons super unique, is the spaces we work in. Then they moved that on to Facebook. And one Facebook private group turned into 30 private Facebook groups. Bless our volunteers' hearts who took care of all of that and held it close and made sure that all of that was able to grow and stay nurtured. But then, that too grew and became its own kind of a universe. So we went from where you had to know a mother who is a Mama Dragon, who would meet you face-to-face and would have the one-on-one conversations and vet you in to a group that was Facebook, that was checking in on the moms in all the different groups. And then we, when I came in, we moved us onto Mighty Networks and off of Facebook. And I'm sure we can talk about that. But it just felt like it was a more secure, private, vetted network that was a safer place for moms to have communication and support and learn and grow and actually talk about the things you can't talk about in other places.

SARA: It seems like, when you came on was right at that point in the organization where folks were starting to realize, “Oh, goodness, this is becoming something so much bigger.” And with that comes, there's so much more opportunity we could have with just a little with some support and coordination and leadership. And so what excited you most about saying yes to this role when you came on in 2024? And what was the charge in that moment? What was the organization telling you they were hoping for and they wanted from a leader?

LIZ: Well, so, I don't think I've told this story very often, but I actually became aware of Mama Dragons years ago, when it was first starting, when I worked at the ACLU because I coordinated a national faith working group, and Mama Dragons was part of that. And I just remember being like, “Oh my gosh, this is really cool.” These are moms, who are standing up for their kids in this moment where people might not listen to kids. They might listen to the moms. And this is where we can really do – I call it the heart work, not just the hard work – and I think it's important. And I was like, “Oh my gosh, this is amazing.” And so, years later, when I saw that this position was opening, they had already had one brilliant executive director who got the organization set up and organized. Celeste did amazing work getting us formed and formalized. But I was like, “Oh my gosh, this would be amazing to be part of right now, especially with the way politics and the world is looking.” And so when I came in and I talked to the board, and they were like, “Yeah, we just feel like we're at a point where we can grow. There should be some opportunities here.” And I was like, “Oh, there's opportunities. We're gonna create opportunities.” And I often say I feel for them, because when you bring someone on who's spent a long time working at the ACLU, you get a lot more than you expect. I just think that Mama Dragons was at a really interesting point when I came on board. Celeste had set up a great organization. It had all the bones to do good work. But I knew that the political world was changing, and the way that people were being marginalized was changing. And we had seen so many changes over the last six years, specifically, in the LGBT spaces. And all I saw with Mama Dragons was opportunities and strengths, because the power of moms and those in the mothering role, it's so powerful to talk about that. And at the same time, we aren't the only people who saw that. People on the other side saw that. You see Moms for Liberty. You see other groups that are doing the same thing. And it felt like a moment where we had to stand up with our voices for our children.

SARA: Yeah, and then six months later, the election happens. And so it was almost like the opportunity and possibility kind of met this fire that really, I think, changed so much for so many organizations, both in a way of needing to respond and create some networks. And so I may be setting you up for this in a way I didn't intend. But what surprised you once you were in the thick of it with us?

LIZ: I think it's a great question, first of all, because I really, I knew Mama Dragons from the outside. So when I got inside, I think the thing that really amazed me was, one, the amount of people who were within the network is amazing and the passion that's within that network. But I think there was also this opportunity, because Mama Dragons started as a call to arms for mothers for their children. And then it became a support network, and an education network, and so a lot of the work we did was bringing moms in, supporting them, educating them, and being there for that moment. And a lot of the work really wasn't turned back out into the world, right? We brought people in, we educated them, we supported them, and it was like, “Now you're ready to face the world.” But Mama Dragons wasn't doing the outward work of advocacy, or plugging people into resources, or that type of a thing. And I felt like, especially when I knew that we would have a new president – I'll just put it that way – I knew that there were certain things we were going to have to confront. I knew we would have to make sure that, first of all, that we were secure. That our people could have conversations that mattered, that they could have a place to talk about the things that were the challenges, and the resources that were available to them in one easy space instead of going on to Google and finding things that aren't necessarily good, or that aren't necessarily helpful in any way. So, I wanted to make sure that Mama Dragons had our security lined up. And then I wanted to make sure that our education stood up and was actually better than it had ever been – which we're going to launch an education platform this fall. So I'm really excited about that. So the education piece had to be there. But then I really also wanted to empower our parents. And I wanted to be able to make them the best advocates they could be, because they had been supported, because they had been educated. And I wanted to give them an opportunity to plug in, back in their communities, or on the national level. And since then, we got to stand on the steps of the Supreme Court and advocate during one of the biggest Supreme Court rallies there's been for quite a while. We've had moms who have been in Colorado speaking to the ballot initiative that is going on there that would affect trans people. We have a mom in Washington State who's going to participate up there in their panels, and their discussions. We have people who are plugging in to go and testify in legislative sessions. We're training them how to do that, and not telling them what to say. But we know as moms, they're gonna have a lot to say. So I think the opportunities for us to really be part of the conversations in the places that matter but also across kitchen tables and in your county, farmers' markets this summer. When you see people, and they see you with your shirt that says “Fight Like a Mother,” what does that shirt mean? It gives you an opportunity to talk about it, right?

SARA: Yeah. What have been some of the projects that you've been most proud of in these last couple years? I know it's hard, I know I'm probably asking you to pick your favorite child. But if you could just mention one or two.

LIZ: You know, I really – ooh, this is hard – I think the ones that I'm really thrilled about are, I'm really excited about our private vetted network.

SARA: Yeah, talk more about that. Let's talk to folks a little bit who might not know what Mighty is, what, and why.

LIZ: So having worked at the ACLU, I knew quite a bit about the things that go on where businesses will just turn over their lists to the government if they are asked. And seeing as how all of our mothers were talking about their children, a lot of them trans, I had watched as the government had sued PFLAG for their membership lists. And that freaked me out. And I'm like, okay, Facebook will probably turn our lists over so easily. And I just didn't want to have our parents be that vulnerable. So between that and maintaining 30 private Facebook groups and trying to coordinate all of that and make sure it made sense, we decided to pull off onto a private vetted network. When I say that, I mean it is secure. You have to apply to join. But it's also free, because we didn't want the barrier of financial issues, especially when parents are trying to figure out, how am I going to even support my kid financially if I have to travel for medicine, or if I have to do therapy, or whatever that is. So we pulled off onto a network. And the network has been fabulous to watch, because it has regional groups. A lot of people think of Mama Dragons as a Utah group. And we now have members across the entire country. So, we have members in every state. We have members in Canada. We have members in the UK. We have members in Australia. I just got my first request for one in South Africa. And we've got them for South America now, too.

SARA: Wow.

LIZ: So we've got members spanning the globe at this point, which is interesting, because the network we have actually allows you to go in and set your own settings. And it translates now to nine different languages automatically, based on the setting that you've set for what language you want to see everything in.

SARA: That's amazing.

LIZ: Isn't that cool?

SARA: Yes, that is very cool.

LIZ: Yeah. So we do, we have the groups that are in there. We have groups that are based on your affinity. You know, the Madres Dragones is all Hispanic mamas who speak Spanish. And they're doing amazing in Puerto Rico. They're just growing leaps and bounds, which I love.

SARA: Yeah.

LIZ: But then we also, we do education, and we do training, and we do community calls, and we do things that bring people together and allow them to have community or ask questions. And we're seeing a huge influx right now of new members. And all of them have questions, like, how do I keep my kids safe? How do I access medicine? We like to say gender-affirming care, but when your gender is changed, everything is gender-affirming care. Everything is healthcare. Like even going in for a routine pap smear is gender-affirming care.

SARA: Yes, it is.

LIZ: And so they can say that they're limiting that, but it brings a whole other level of fear when your kid or yourself have to go in, and you have to confront that. And you don't know what you're going to walk into. At what point is a pap smear gonna be ruled gender-affirming care, you know?

SARA: I don't know, and just even the supply of estrogen has been a challenge for everybody. For those of us middle-aged ladies that's a real problem, too.

LIZ: Yep.

SARA: How can folks get connected with Mighty? How can they join or figure out how to join?

LIZ: So the easiest way is to just go to our website, which is mamadragons.org. And from there, you will see a thing that says Join. You click on it. You fill out the application. It's a little bit lengthy because we are making sure that people are vetted and we know who they are when they come in. And then once they take a look at you, they will send you an invite if you are approved in. And you just join the network.

SARA: That's great.

LIZ: One of the most amazing things about that is that, right now I'm watching so many new people coming in. And all of them are like, “Oh my god, I am so glad I found this. This didn't exist anywhere else for me for free.”

SARA: Yeah, for free.

LIZ: There are other people who offer coaching. And they offer retreats. And they offer all of this, but a lot of those are not free.

SARA: Yeah, that is a really great point. I'm glad that you emphasized that because it has, that's how it started on Facebook. And I know it was a lifeline for people. And so part of it is just also letting people know we haven't disappeared from Facebook. You can still find that lifeline, that interactive lifeline, with other moms on this really beautiful new platform. All organizations, when they've had great growth, also have some growing pains. And I'm curious, what have been some of the lessons or challenges that have popped up over the last couple of years?

LIZ: I think the biggest one for us, because I came in with a very aggressive look at how I wanted Mama Dragons to grow. I wanted to make sure that, all of our projects, whether it's the podcast or the Wrapped in Hugs, or our suicide prevention, or Mighty Networks, I wanted to make sure that all of those interacted and lifted each other up. I think that was one of the things. I didn't want each one of those projects to just live in their own little hole where nothing else was lifted. So I think one of the challenges has been – and Mighty Network has helped with this – but one of the challenges has been making sure that we are looking at everything as a holistic organization. And you all do it great with the podcast when you talk about our suicide prevention training, or you talk about our other programs. And I think that's been a challenge, is to get it to look like an entire organization instead of a series of projects and Facebook groups.

SARA: Yeah, I think that's a challenge for a lot of organizations who have a lot of irons in the fire.

LIZ: Yeah. And then, you know, recently, and it's not a bad problem to have, it's definitely an opportunity, but because we have been so aggressive in the work that we've been doing and getting our name out there – we've done a national outreach project to over 400 organizations. We're partnering with a lot of organizations. We're partnering with the documentary Heightened Scrutiny to do screenings. We've partnered with It Gets Better. We've partnered with all these just different things. And now, people are starting to know who Mama Dragons are outside of the normal group that we've seen. And I am getting 20 to 40 emails a day asking people to partner with us, or to lift up a project, or to collaborate on something. And the challenge for me is, I am still working with mostly volunteers and a limited staff. And so I don't want to stretch Mama Dragons beyond the capacity we have, because that's when you get into trouble, when you over-promise and under-deliver? And so I am doing a lot of grant writing and reaching out to sponsors and businesses because we've built such a stable, solid foundation, and now to grow, we need money. And we need the money to hire more people to do more work. And it's not like we're looking for money to build a building or to do something. We operate so lean, we just need more staff because the opportunities are coming in so fast. And every one of them is so tempting.

SARA: Oh, I'm sure. I want to dig into this just a little bit. You've given us just a little sprinkling. But I think for a lot of organizations, especially ones with a large volunteer pool and a big constituency, a very specific constituency, people see the programs, and the projects, but they don't see all the behind-the-scenes stuff all the time. So, what does an executive director spend their days doing? Writing grants, we heard What else? What's a week in the life of the executive director for Mama Dragons?

LIZ: Oh my gosh, okay. So lots of phone calls to partners. I sit on several national boards, and groups, advocacy groups, with national partners, some local groups, that type of thing. So I have lots of calls to make sure that we have our finger on the pulse, that we're in the know, that we're not guessing at anything when we put something out. It's coming from a place of, collaboration and knowledge. I spend a lot of time grant writing. I spend a lot of time just looking at our programs to make sure that they're operating efficiently, and that we are doing the things that we promise we're gonna do. So, we have a lot of different programs. And they all are now starting to intersect. But it's definitely a challenge to make sure that everything gets covered and that we're doing good. I spend a lot of time packing Pride boxes, because we've done over 30 Prides this year. And we had nine partners that have put out our information at their Prides, because we didn't have a mom in the area, or they wanted to just lift us up. And those boxes with all of our embracelets and our brochures and all of that, they just don't pack themselves. So I do the packing those and driving them to the shipping place. But I think also one of the things that people don't realize when you have a lot of volunteers, is volunteers work when they can. And a lot of them are working after hours, or they're working on a weekend, or they're working in the morning at 5 AM before they go to work. And so that's when most of my emails come in, or after hours, when people need to know something. And to not know it means they can't move forward, finish what they're trying to do. So we have someone who is our tech person. And she works a full-time job in tech elsewhere. And then she helps us coordinate all of our stuff and does all of our security work and all of that. But her texts usually come in about 10 PM. And if she doesn't have an answer, she can't continue working on it. And so my hours don't exist between 9 and 5. And we're lucky because we have someone who's so dedicated, who does that work. But it's just different for me than it is with someone who has a staff of 30 people. I have 200 volunteers.

SARA: Yes. Yeah, that does make it a whole different way of being. So how do you manage your time in light of that? How do you make sure that you're not over – for those of us in the organization that want to keep you around for a while, a long time – how do you make sure that you're not over-functioning and overworking and burning out?

LIZ: You know, I do have to admit, I have learned to delegate more. And I think, along with that, you have to learn to just trust people to do the work. You have to learn to empower them with it, to see the vision, to see the work, to see where they're going. And we're lucky because our mission is pretty simple. It's not complicated. But you've got to trust them to do the work. And then see it, and recognize it, and appreciate it. I don't think there's anyone on our staff or our volunteers, that doesn't just – they're not dial-in – they are so on top of what it looks like that it's not a problem for them to complete it. And it's the minor things. So, if I get a text at 10 PM that says, “Do you want to do this or this?” For me, it's just a text that says, “Do this.” Right? Because we've already had those bigger conversations. And so I'm definitely getting better. I used to be an organizer, so I thought I had to do everything myself. And now as an executive director, I'm learning to work with organizers who will do it and let me just think of big picture things. And I marked time off out on my calendar.

SARA: Oh, that’s good.

LIZ: I have learned; I was very lucky that I was given an opportunity to work with Rockwood Leadership Institute years ago. And that's just about building sustainability in yourself and in your organization. And I have taken a lot of that to heart. And I'm very careful about what I do.

SARA: That's great. That's really good to hear. You mentioned about a lot of your work in this last year has been finding national partners and connecting. And you talked about the Heightened Scrutiny screenings, which I think a lot of folks are familiar with and certainly we had a podcast with the director and Erin In The Morning to talk deep dive about that screening, which is an incredible, incredible film. Who are some of the other national partners that we've connected with that were really having some really great success with?

LIZ: We're partnering with the folks at Parenting is Political. We're actually part of a larger coalition through one of our funders that has us in a collaboration Families United for Trans Rights and PFLAG, and Parenting Is Political, and groups like Ground Media, which we're going to start a video project with where we’ll be sharing videos that are actually of trans people talking about their lives. None of the trauma, it's like, “Hi, I'm James, and I have a cat. This is my boring life as a trans person.” So we're working with them to put those videos out. We work with the ACLU on the Supreme Court cases and that type of thing. We were listed as a supportive group. And it's always a thrill to hear when they talk about their groups, when they're talking about it and say, Mama Dragons, it just warms my heart. But you know, we're also working with groups that are tied in with some of these ballot initiatives who've reached out and said, “Do you have a mom who could share a story?” And I think that we can talk about the organization, we can talk about our role, we can talk about these things. But actually being a connector is probably one of the best things, because we have moms everywhere. And those moms can share their stories. And that is really what's authentic and real where people can connect. And so, we're doing a lot of that across the country as well.

SARA: That's great. I'm really excited about all of those partnerships and the way that the Mama Dragons name and reputation has really been lifted. And more and more folks are coming into contact with us. And I also will say, Parenting Is Political, we just re-aired our podcast episode with Jasmine Banks of Parenting is Political so folks can go check that out and hear more about what that is in addition to explore the website, such an incredible partnership, such an incredible organization and podcast. Let's talk about the future. And this year in particular, I know you started off 2026 with, “Hey, we're gonna go back to community.” And you really wanted to kind of bring things now back around into how do we create deeper, more intentional, more connected, smaller communities within the organization. So talk about your vision for this year and how that is unfolding. 

LIZ: I think that was one of the things that was challenging for Mama Dragons. Because in 2024, we pulled back and did not go to Pride. And it was because we were changing internally and we had all these other things going on. And I really think that that was a tough one for us, because we can talk about bringing people into Mama Dragons, but we really have to have them have support in their local communities. And so what we're seeing from last year, and then especially this year, is that being out in the communities is connecting mom to mom in that area. And that's what they need. It's great to have a place to go online, but it's also great to have a place that you can sit and hold someone's hand when they need it or that you can go and celebrate things. I don't want to pretend that it's not about the celebration, too. We get to celebrate our kids and we get to celebrate who they are, even if the state tells us not to, right? The vision for this really was to go back into communities, do the Prides, do community tables, do book fairs, do whatever it is that is lighting your fire in your own community and helping you find other moms who might need the same kind of support. Last year we had a mom in New York who did one Pride. And this year, she's doing three, and she's looking at two more things that she can do. And every time she does, her group is getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And they're doing things together, and they're going to have regular meetings where they do table talks and talk about issues. And what that's going to do is it's going to make them stronger as parents. It will make them more visible in their own communities. And when something happens in their own community that needs to be addressed, they can do it as 20 instead of as 1.

SARA: Yeah.

LIZ: And that's going to make a difference. I mean, I know you've testified. And it makes a difference when you're standing there by yourself or when you have 15 of your friends standing there with you.

SARA: It does, yeah.

LIZ: And I think that that's really important is that we've got to have those supports, because I don't want moms bullied into not being able to say what they need to say for their kids. And I want them to have the support network. And I want them to be able to do things in their community with pride. And I think that's kind of the goal of this, is to get people back together. And ultimately, I don't want to just see a mom's meetup. I mean, I want to see those, but I also want to see where the moms bring their kids, and their husbands, and their partners, and their siblings. And I want to see where we can actually have moments of celebration and community in a larger picture. And I think that's how we change the world. And I know that sounds big aspirational. But I think that's how you do it. What's on the other side of what we're going through now? If right now is about isolation and division, what's on the other side is community and connection. And that's what we're building towards.

SARA: Exactly. Especially right now, I think, when the political environment is really trying so hard to isolate and creating a lot of fear, very valid fear. But when that fear gets ratcheted up, it's really beautiful to have spaces where people can come and know that they are not alone in those fears, and know that also – I think, especially for moms of queer kids – know that their fears are not overblown. Whereas other people around them in their lives might say, “Oh, you're overreacting.” But you come to your mom's group, and everyone's like, “Oh, no. Me too.” And that just feels really important in bolstering. There's a place where we can come when things get really scary.

LIZ: Yep, I think it's important, and I just, as I look at Mama Dragons, again, as a holistic organization, so many of our moms have poured into Mama Dragons, and have come back when new moms come in, and they're like, “Yes, That was my experience. Let me share with you how we got through that.” And I think it's important that that does happen in a safe space. But I also want to see that taken outside of Mama Dragons with our Mama Dragons as the ambassadors of it, to talk about, to model how we have courageous conversations, and to model how we have community, and to model what it looks like to be a parent of a queer kid. I can't help but wonder, so many people out in this world will talk about trans people, but they've never actually really acknowledged as meeting one. They’ve probably met one and not known. But they've never known that they were meeting with a trans person. And I think that having those conversations with a mom can help some of that language because it humanizes it. And I think that that's where we've got to get – I think we are in a unique position to facilitate those conversations.

SARA: Yeah. You talked a little bit about the future and this education platform that is launching. Tell us more about that.

LIZ: Oh my gosh, I am so excited about this, I can hardly stand it. So we have always had Parachute. When I think of Parachute, I think of soft landings because you come in, you need to learn, you need other moms who will kind of help you walk through what that looks like. So Parachute has always been that first soft landing that moms get when they come into our network. But there's a lot of questions beyond that, right? And I think that there's questions in both the greater LGBT universe like, “I don't know the difference between sexual orientation and gender identity. To me, it's all the same.” Okay, well, let's help you with that. I think there's questions about, “What does it look like in my faith? How do I deconstruct my faith? Or how do I work within my faith to accept my child?” So I think there's those faith elements. I think there's health questions that come up. I mean, everything from “What is a healthy relationship?” to “What does consent look like?” to "What's the state of AIDS in the world right now, and how at risk is my kid if I do this?” to “What are hormones? What are the effects of hormones? What are the effects of this? At what point will my child be able to have the surgery?” Because we know they're not getting it when they're eight in their English class, right? So I think those are the questions that we're having these classes about. We're having them about how do you have a courageous conversation? How do you talk about trans athletes? How do you do this. And it just fascinates me, right? And so the amazing part is, when I came on board and I knew we were going to move from Facebook, onto Mighty Networks. And there were these 30 private Facebook groups. I actually sat down with a piece of paper and a pen, and I wrote down every question that new parents were coming in with. And so I wrote it down. And I wrote what group it was in, and what it looked like. And my notebook with hundreds and hundreds of questions kind of sat on my desk for a bit. And then I went back and I organized them into, okay, all of these are kind of the same and could be addressed by this kind of a class. And so, the classes kind of got built that way. So all in all, I came up with about 85 class ideas based on the questions that were being asked, and the things that moms were still needing to answer after they went online and Googled because I see contradicting information. And so put all these class ideas together, and then I reached out to all of my connections who I've partnered with in my work over the last 20 years. And so we have some doctors, some counselors, some faith people, some all walks of life that are doing these classes for us that will be pre-recorded and put into our our thing. Some of them are 5 minutes, some of them are an hour. It just depends on what it is. And then the classes that we don't have the experts, we're pulling studies together, and we're creating our own classes. We're also really stepping in and utilizing the podcast. So, the experts that we've had on the podcast, we're using their own words in the classes to build out these classes. So it's the experts who've already done the work with the podcast sharing it within the education network. So all of these will be in the network and this is what excites me. All of those will still remain free and accessible to all of our Mama Dragons who join the network, absolutely free, nothing extra for them to pay. But, we are also going to open up the majority of those classes. through a partnership-type thing, where the people that we've partnered with, we can send them a code. And they can let their people in who need the education to just the education. It's firewalled off from all of the other wonderfulness of Mama Dragons. So, dads can access it. Therapists can access it. Teachers can access it. All of the people that would not be in Mama Dragons because they aren't mothers of LGBTQ plus kids, those will all be available for other people to access whether it's through a partnership organization or a small fee that helps keep our platform up and running.

SARA: Oh, I love that. That sounds amazing. So when might we anticipate this launch?

LIZ: I'm just saying back to school.

SARA: Okay.

LIZ: We're all going to go back to school.

SARA: We're all going to go back to school. That's great. I look forward to seeing some of those. That sounds really wonderful. As you look ahead to the coming years, what are some of your hopes and dreams for the organization?

LIZ: I just see the opportunities to reach farther and deeper into spaces that people really need this support is going to be crucial. We're doing some advertising. We're doing some outreach into areas that are more conservative faiths and more conservative spaces that I think is going to be crucial to moving forward. I think that, I've been in conversations with people from several very conservative faith traditions about how we can work with them to help their mothers move through. And some of them will probably shock people when they come out – not because they're bad people – It's just because they're actually reaching out about understanding in very powerful ways. So, I want to do more of that work. Also, we're getting, like I said, so many people who are coming with incredible opportunities for us to take part in. And so I'm hoping that the organization has grown enough where we have more staff where we can actually – because I don't have the capacity to do it all and some of these require a lot higher level of engagement and responsibility than a lot of volunteers have time for. So, I'm hoping we can grow that, which will also grow our organization. I really want to grow this organization where it becomes a resource across the country for LGBT centers, where they're so busy doing their work that they're like, “Yes, we'll just send you our moms.” And my response is, “Yeah, send them to me. We'll get them in and supported, and educated. And then we'll send them back to you as better advocates and volunteers in your own community.” Because I think so many organizations work from a space of scarcity: “We got to get our people in. We don't want to share donors. If they're going to volunteer, we want them volunteering with us.” And I don't think that's how we all rise, right? I think we all have to be interactive, and there's an ebb and a flow to it that we've just got to be part of.

SARA: Oh, I so appreciate you saying that because I see that there can be a sense of competitiveness in the nonprofit sector. And it's such a shame, if you think about all of the sort of queer-centered organizations, we all want the same thing. And like you, I believe there's room and space for all of us to grow and thrive together.

LIZ: Well, and I find it ironic, because pretty much every grant that I end up writing talks about, “Who do you collaborate with? Who do you work with?” And if you're not working with people you're just on an island, right? And so, I just think it's really important that, especially in times like this, where we're up against the same people, we're up against the same ideas, we're up against the same media. If we don't all row in the same direction together, we're gonna sink. And I think it's important that we do the right work, the right way, for the right reasons, with the right people.

SARA: So how can listeners, and others in our community, I think our Mama Dragons probably know, but I'm thinking about that kind of next layer of the circle, how can people support this work, whether they're parents, allies, or just believe in the work?

LIZ: I think one of the things that's really crucial for us is, one: supporting us financially is huge. Like, that is my biggest challenge right now is if I had money, I could hire staff. But I know that there's so many demands on people. But I also think there are a lot of ways you can participate and help us grow. I think any time someone shares, the actual link, or the beautiful work that Wendy does on our graphics, and they share it for Mama Dragons instead of just cutting it, saving it, and putting it on their own, where it has that opportunity for them to link back to Mama Dragons and find out more about us, is helpful. So, hit share instead of save and put it out on your own. I think that helps. I think we routinely now, are putting out more information. We just put a letter out to Governor Cox in Utah. When you share that and get those words out, it helps. We did a letter to Pete Buttigieg that was, I think, critical in that moment for what happened with him. We did a TikTok around this controversy that's going on around Matthew Vines.

SARA: Oh, yeah.

LIZ: And I think that having another frame of reference around that by sharing that TikTok helps. I think that there's opportunities to join if you're not already a member. But I think there's also opportunities to volunteer that we're developing every day, because we're getting more and more people who want to participate, in their ERG at work, or their church wants to do something. And so, we've got more membership things that are kind of in development for ways that people can plug in with their time, if they can't plug in with their financial resources.

SARA: I think I maybe know the answer to this, but just in case, how can folks find out if there is a Mama Dragons group in their local community?

LIZ: That's really a good question, and it's something that I've looked at. I would love to have a map of where our members are on our website. But the hard part is a lot of our members also they're still kind of in their own silos? And so I don't want somebody to look and say, “Oh, there's somebody in Knoxville, Tennessee.” But that's two moms who are having really intense conversations. And so it makes it hard to do that type of a thing. And so I think the best thing you can do at this point is join the network. I think that's something that is an opportunity that maybe we need to look at more about how we put that out into the world.

SARA: Yeah. This has been a really wonderful conversation. I'm really excited to reflect, but also to hear about all the opportunities and possibilities for what's coming in the future, how we can continue to grow and strengthen Mama Dragons. I'm curious, what has this role taught you about parents, about community, and really also, because we get to ask this question a lot, what has it taught you about hope?

LIZ: Okay, you're going to make me cry because this is the question that always gets me. I actually was just up in Sandpoint, Idaho, a couple weeks ago. And Idaho, as you know, passed that law that made it criminal for people to use the restrooms. And in a place like Sandpoint, where a lot of people will just write that off. It's like, “Oh, that's Idaho, and that's rural, and it's already a law that's passed.” Well, that completely negates the people that are there that are still doing the work? And the people who live there that are still impacted. And there was a wonderful trans woman that I spoke to who had lived in Sandpoint for decades and decades, and was just accepted and, live and let live state, for so long. And now all of a sudden is under scrutiny. And I think the thing that really struck me is, in this moment, it doesn't matter whether you live in a blue state or a red state. There's an opportunity for you to come together to support people. Right? And in a blue state, there are people who are fleeing there that need help. And if you have the resources to help somebody in another state, help them in another state. We've had a lot of groups on our podcast, like Elevated Access. And groups that are actually trying to do things that will help people survive in places that are really hard. And when you look at it really close, you do, you're like, “Oh my god, everything is on fire.” But then when you step back, and you look back, and you realize, there are probably more people who really do care, than don't. And there are more people who are trying to do things that will help than you imagine. The others are louder. They control the media. They control a lot of things that make it really hard. But I truly believe that most people really do care about other people. And I just see that in going to the Prides this summer and seeing the people hugging each other, and seeing the people who came out. You see the people who show up at protests. You see the people who show up at the legislature. You see the people who – I don't know, get arrested in the governor's office. You see the people who do things that really make a difference. And that's what gives me hope, is that we continue to talk to each other, and talk to each other in meaningful ways, and that that will help change it back. Because I truly believe the pendulum will swing. And when it comes back, we need to be ready to not just rebuild what was, but to actually build it in a way that is more equitable and just. And we need to remember what we've learned during this moment.

SARA: Yeah, thank you for that. My last question that I want to ask is we're recording this on July 6th so we’ve just weathered this weekend with a lot of July 4th, 250th celebrations. The way the state of our government is right now doesn't feel like it is a place that includes or allows for everyone. And Mama Dragons just put up this beautiful social post that says the next chapter starts with us and has 250 years with an American flag and a pride flag. When you think about that future and try to imagine 250 years from now and that road, what does that look like for you? What is the vision? What is the hope? What are we working towards as Mama Dragons and as a collective of all of these organizations? What do we hope for 250 years from now?

LIZ: I think we need to remember – and I think Ben Green had mentioned this on a podcast, perhaps – but things have changed so dramatically in the last 50 years, you know? When I was a kid, my mom couldn't get a credit card in her own name. She couldn't buy a house in her own name. Twenty years ago, people couldn't get married who were the same sex, same gender. All of those things are new. Ruby Bridges is still alive. And when you think about it, our history is long, but it's not as long as the history of everywhere else. And we are, we're still basically a young country with a lot to learn. And when I look at the future, like I said, I don't want to maintain the status quo. I don't want to go back to what it was before Trump. I actually, I want to go forward into something better. I don't want to go back to a broken system. So when I look at 250 years, I think that what I want to see, and it may be incremental, it may have some leaps and bounds, it could flip all upside down – which I'd be fine with, too, at this point – but when I look at 250 years, I want to get to a point where, when we look – and this is a personal moment for me. I've spent a lot of time at the Supreme Court. Right? – And when I look up at the Supreme Court, I go every night before there's a Supreme Court case, and I spend some time on the stairs, and I look up at it. And on the building, it says Equal Justice Under Law. Which is powerful. And when I look at it, I want equal justice under law. I want equal rights that are inherently recognized, right? I want to see people's full humanity, whether that includes their race, their gender, their religion, their education. I want to see everybody have an opportunity to live fully into who they are and who they want to be. We're not all gonna agree. We’re not all gonna be the same. But we all have the right to live that way, and that's what I want to see come full circle in the next 250 years.

SARA: Yes, thank you. I appreciate it. Thanks for this conversation. Thank you for your leadership and your vision and for all of the work that you're helping steward with all of our beautiful Mama Dragons across the country, across the globe. It's really exciting to watch and see it all progress and unfold in beautiful, beautiful ways. I feel very proud to be part of this organization. Thank you for sharing all of that history and vision with us.

LIZ: Our people will always be our greatest strength. And we have some amazing people who do this work, and we all carry the bricks. So, thank you for your part in it.

SARA: You're welcome. So to our Mama Dragons who are listening and folks who are listening to this episode on the podcast, I just want to invite you to share this episode with people who you think might value a connection with Mama Dragons because you've heard and you know and you've experienced how powerful this organization can be and how important and needed it is in this moment. Thank you, Liz.

LIZ: Thank you. I'm super excited for the work that you're doing, excited to see what we do moving forward.

SARA: Thanks so much for joining us In the Den. Did you know you can connect with our Mama Dragons community on our own free private, secure platform. In addition to our main support group we host regional groups for more localized connection and support and affinity groups to connect moms with shared identities and experiences: including groups for gender diverse parents, political advocacy, mamas of transgender children, mamas of children with special needs, Madres Dragones – our Spanish-speaking moms – and moms of color. We also offer religious-based based groups from those grounded in faith to those navigating transitions out of it. Wherever you are, there's a group for you. You can learn more and join by visiting our website at mamadragons.org/join.

If you enjoyed this episode, please tell your friends. Take a minute to leave us a positive rating and review wherever you are listening. Good reviews make us more visible and help us reach more folks who could benefit from this community and this podcast. If you’d like to help Mama Dragons in our mission to support, educate, and empower the parents of LGBTQ+ children, please donate at mamadragons.org or click the donate link in the show notes. For more information on Mama Dragons, our community, the podcast, follow us on Instagram or on Facebook and visit our website at mamadragons.org.