What About the Siblings of Queer Kids?

When your child first came out to you as LGBTQ+, who else was in the room? Who else in your family had to absorb the news, adjust, learn, and figure out where they fit into a story that wasn’t theirs, but, as we’ll see in this episode, was also very much theirs? Most of the conversations In the Den center around our queer kids.  Today’s episode focuses on our other kids–the siblings, who had to figure everything out quietly alongside the rest of us. In today’s episode, guest host Karmel sits down with guests Jessica, Hunter, and Brandon to reflect on their experiences of having a sibling come out, what changed for them, what challenges they faced, and what advice they have for others who have a sibling come out as queer.

Special Guest: Jessica Pierce

Jessica is the oldest of the Harper kids and big sister to Forrest. She works as a therapist specializing in OCD and trauma.

Special Guest: Hunter Pierce

Hunter joined the family when he married Jessica in May 2021. He is a fierce ally and believes we should all love one another unconditionally. He is an IT professional. 

Special Guest: Brandon Harper

Brandon is the middle child of the Harper kids and Forrest's older brother. He is a tech entrepreneur building in the med tech and AI-embedded device space. 

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Transcript

SARA: Hi everyone. Welcome to In the Den with Mama Dragons, a podcast and community to support, educate, and empower parents on the journey of raising happy and healthy LGBTQ+ humans. I’m your host, Sara LaWall. I’m a Mama Dragon myself and an advocate for our queer community. And I’m so glad to be part of this wild and wonderful parenting journey with all of you. Thanks for joining us. We’re so glad you’re here. 

Hello and welcome to In The Den with Mama Dragons. This is Karmel, filling in for Sara and I'm really looking forward to this episode. I want to start by asking a question. When your child first came out to you as LGBTQ+, who also was in the room? Not physically necessarily, but who else in your family had to absorb the news? Who else had to adjust? Who else had to learn? Who else had to figure out where they fit in a story that wasn't really theirs? But as we'll learn in this episode, it very much was theirs. Most of the conversations we have on this show center around our queer kids. But today I want to talk about the other kids, the siblings. The kids who were in the room, when everything shifted. These kids had to figure it out quietly alongside the rest of us. My child Forrest, who is now 21 years old, came out as queer when they were 14 years old. They had two siblings, two biological siblings, Brandon, who was 18 at the time, and Jessica who was 20. Today I have three guests with me, Forest’s siblings, man, Brandon, Jessica, and Jessica's partner Hunter. Brandon, Jessica, and Hunter, thank you so much for being with us here today. So let's start off with some introductions. If you can just share a little bit about you and tell our audience about who you are, that would be fantastic. So Jessica, let's start with you. 

JESSICA: Hi, I'm Jessica. I am the oldest of the Harper kids. And yeah, I am really excited to be here. I am currently a CSW, working as a therapist, and hopefully becoming an LCSW later this year. And I love working in mental health. I’m really passionate about it and I’m really excited for this conversation. 

KARMEL: Wonderful, I'm just for clarification, what does CSW stand for? 

JESSICA: Certified Social Worker. 

KARMEL: Yeah, wonderful. Thank you so much. And Brandon. 

BRANDON: Hi, I'm Brandon. Thanks for having me here. I’m looking forward to this discussion. I am the middle child of the Harper kids, Forrest’s older brother. And for work I’m a tech entrepreneur. And for my hobbies, I like to snowboard and make music. And yeah, I'm really looking forward to this conversation. 

KARMEL: Thank you so much. And then of course we have Hunter. 

HUNTER: I'm the latest addition to the family. I married into the family in 2021 to Jessica. For work, I'm an IT specialist. I also do cybersecurity for that job as well. And I'm really looking forward to this conversation and looking forward to hearing all the different insights about all of this. 

KARMEL: Thank you so much. All right, let's just dive right in. So let's go back in time to early 2019. Jessica, you were on a church mission for the church or Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and you were out of state at the time. Hunter, you weren’t quite in the picture yet, but a mere twinkle in Jessica's eye. And Brandon, you were 18 years old and living at home. So, at the time, Forrest publicly identified as female. And tell us about the day, Brandon, Forrest opened up to you. To give a little bit of context, Brandon was the first person in the family that Forrest came out to. 

BRANDON: Yeah, I still remember the day vividly. It was really cool. It was my senior year of high school. And I remember that I would share the task with my mom to help commute Forrest back and forth to his therapy. And one day I picked him up from therapy, and this day, I remember, was different, because he came to my car with this big bright smile on his face and just a different energy. I would know before, I asked him how it was before and would kind of just get the same response that you would really give anybody after therapy, the typical like, “Yeah, and it was good. It was okay.” But this time, he walked out there looking like he just won a million dollars. And it was cool because he talked to me. “I had a really good session,” and just told me that he's realized that he's gay. And I just thought that was really cool. I knew, just I think, from that day forward that Forrest had more confidence and more security with himself. And I think that transitions, or that just really being comfortable with your sexual identity and being able to come out and accept that. And I thought it was amazing and I felt very honored being the first person he felt safe opening up to and to come and talk about it. And I think there's probably a number of reasons why I may have been the first person that he may have chose. Part of that could be being the closest in age. Out of all the siblings, there's some relativity there. And then also on the ideological side of it – our family was just transitioning out of the Latter Day Saints church, while we still had family members that we're still in it – I think kind of a mix that there's some moral ambiguity with our family because we never really had a conversation on what we really believe in our morals as we are slowly filtering out. Some of us were in, some of us were out. And I think it kind of makes sense. I may have been the first comfortable conversation he can have that with. And I’m very grateful for that. 

KARMEL: Thank you so much for sharing that. This is actually the first time I heard your perspective during that moment. So I really appreciate you sharing that. At the time when Forrest first shared that with you, did you feel any trepidation from them in sharing it with Dad and I? 

BRANDON: I could tell there probably was some hesitation. I think I can recall that, especially, opening up to Jessica was, I think, the biggest worry. And that's obvious, since she's on a mission and we have no idea. But I remember, I think being quick to assure Forrest, that of course, our family was so accepting. Mom and Dad will still love you. Jessica will still love you and accept you. It doesn't matter where her beliefs stand, knowing Jessica, she's our sister. She will still love and accept you no matter what. Everything's going to be okay. And I hope that helped in him coming out to you guys because I believe it was later that day that he then told you and Dad. 

KARMEL: Yeah, it actually was. It was probably just a few minutes after you came home. I remember it vividly. He came in and the first thing he said – well, he expressed he wanted to talk to Dad and I but you were in the room the whole time. And it was curious to me that you were in the room the whole time. And it was obvious that you already know what he was going to say – but what he said to me that really resonated at the time was, “I think I finally learned how to love myself.” And just to give our listeners a little bit of background, Forrest had been undergoing some therapy for suicide ideation for a couple of years now. He even went to an outpatient clinic to help with that. That's when we learned about good therapy versus not-so-good therapy. And we were fortunate enough to land on a really good therapist that helped him through his journey. And so when he said those words, “I finally learned a way, to learn how to love myself.” Anything that would come out of his mouth was music to my ears. And so he sat down and Brandon sat down on the couch next to us and he told us that they were gay. And it was surprising. But at the same time, it was also a moment of joy for us. And of course Jessica was out of state on her mission. And so we had to make the decision of whether or not we were going to tell Jessica at the time. We had very limited contact with Jessica. So it wasn't something we needed to share that evening. But we did make the decision to withhold the information from Jessica until she came home from her mission because this is something that we wanted to share in person rather than through an email. So Jessica, now I want to turn to you. And since Forrest first came out as queer to our family, you were on a mission. You weren't geographically close. And so can you recall when you first learned and how you learned and what were your first reactions to all of it? 

JESSICA: Yeah, I actually remember you telling me. I just got home and we were getting in the car. And we were backing out of the driveway. I was looking through Instagram. And I had seen that one of my old school friends, she actually came out as gay on her Instagram. And I said, “Oh my gosh, this friend has a girlfriend.” And I remember, you stopped the car and you looked at me and you said, “I have something to tell you.” And then you told me that Forrest was gay. And I remember feeling surprised just because it wasn't something I’d been expecting. But I wouldn't say that I felt, like, confused or offput, because just seeing how happy they were and that was enough for me. And honestly, any questions I might have had was answered just by seeing Forrest. It was night and day difference. He seemed so much happier, so much more comfortable in his own skin and so much more at peace with who he was. And I just felt really, really happy for him. It was amazing seeing him become more confident. And they seemed more genuine and really more themself – or at least like they're letting us see this genuine happy part of them – And the fact that they felt comfortable expressing that, I felt very honored. I remember before my mission, there was one day when I was in college and I remember you calling me, Mom. And you just in tears just asking me to come home for the weekend to be there for Forrest because you had said that he had to call the suicide hotline. I remember the moment that phone call was made. And I was just heartbroken. And so seeing that night and day difference, coming home from my mission seeing him happy, I was just so, so thrilled. They were so confident and just happy and comfortable in their skin. And I felt like our conversations were able to connect so much better because I could tell he was being more authentic, like it allowed him to be more open. And that just made me so, so happy, just seeing that difference. 

KARMEL: It had been a while since you saw Forrest after you left on your mission. Did you see that change right away even before you knowing? Do you recall?

JESSICA: I don't really recall. And maybe I did notice a change, but I think it became more apparent after connecting the dots, if that makes sense. 

KARMEL: That does make sense.

JESSICA: Because I feel like after connecting that, it was just so obvious. And it made me so happy seeing that change and that confidence. 

KARMEL: Thank you so much. Thank you so much for sharing that. I really appreciate that, especially that phone call before your mission, hearing that from your perspective, I really appreciate that. It was a rough time for the family for sure. So how did you feel when you learned that we waited to tell you? Was there weird feelings about that? Did you feel a little bit left out? Could you understand why? 

JESSICA: Oh, yeah. No, I totally understood why. I mean, definitely from a logistical standpoint it made sense. I was in a different state. And I think I'm really grateful that you waited to tell me when I got home and until I was more settled being home. Because the kind of conversation I wanted to have with Forrest to listen, it wasn't one I wanted to have over the phone or through email or anything. I wanted to be there in person to have that time and space to really listen. And then ask questions if I had them, I didn't really have any. And I also more importantly just let Forrest know that I loved him. I know he was nervous. I remember him telling me. Also in a car ride – a lot of these conversations happened in the car – that he was nervous to tell me, which obviously makes sense. I just got back home from an LDS mission. And so I really wanted to be in person to create a safe space and just let him know that I genuinely love him so, so much.

KARMEL: Thank you so much. I know that that meant the world to him to have that affirmation from you right away. Can you describe – if any of this existed at any time, since you were pretty much the last active member of the LDS church in our immediate family – was there any cognitive dissonance of supporting a queer sibling and that aligning with your beliefs in the church? 

JESSICA: Sure. Yeah, I definitely experienced some cognitive dissonance, especially as a really recent RM, a returned missionary, at the time. I think I handled it the way a lot of members do, like putting those questions on this shelf. I told myself God would figure out everything eventually. But it definitely became a lot harder to do over time just the more that I watched Forrest thrive. And while staying in the church, those questions lingered for sure. That definitely created a real tension. And it didn't make sense because it felt there was a lot of contradictions in what the church was teaching. And so, yeah, it was hard to understand why some of that, and the policies could lead to dividing families when the church talks a lot about eternal families and loving everyone. It was definitely difficult for me. But over time, eventually leaving the church, it definitely led to that. But I think that was a big start of that cognitive dissonance. 

KARMEL: Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing that. That leads us into your dating, shortly after your mission. You were still active in the church. So you were looking for another active member of the church as a partner. And let’s introduce Hunters. So Hunter comes in. And Hunter, prior to meeting Jessica, can you please share how you felt about the LGBTQ+ community, and how you grew up with views about that? 

HUNTER: I grew up in the church. And there's a lot of moral things when it comes to the teachings of the church towards the LGBTQ+ community. And I had always struggled with the church growing up. And one of the big things that was a big pusher for me, was that we were taught to love everybody. No matter what, we were taught to be there. And yet there were all these other policies that were coming out with the church that were directly against that. And that was a lot of the LGBTQ+ community stuff where it was a love ‘but’, love ‘and,’ and it's more of a division that I would see, rather than this all-encompassing loving one another. So that already was an issue for me when it came to the church. But then, even when I was in high school, I still had a lot of contact with a lot of friends who had come out as gay, who had come out as bi. And we would still just be friends. There was nothing really big to me. That didn't change who they were in my eyes. It was always still, “You are still my friend. I'm still going to sit next to you in our math class. And we're still going to help each other on homework when we need to. There's no reason for me to say: oh, you're that way. Sorry, we can't be friends anymore.” I always had issue with that when I would see other people in my high school do that and start distancing themselves from these people. And even in my home life, it wasn't anything we ever really discussed as a family. We never talked about it much. We never said what was right, what was wrong. But in my mind, it was always, I would still like to be friends. I still wanted to care and love and show that appreciation for those people. 

KARMEL: Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing that. Can you share, when did Jessica first tell you about Forrest? Was it early on, first, second, third date? Do you remember? And how did she share it with you? And what was your reaction? 

HUNTER: It was roughly our third date. Don't quote me on the numbers, but I do remember the activity. And that activity was that we went to a drive-in movie. And while we were waiting for the movie to start, we just got to talking, like we always had at that point. And she just said, “Hey, I have a gay sibling.” And I said, “Okay. And?” It was one of those things where she was just wanting me to understand her home and where this line of family and church and how there could be this blend. And it was something that was never ever a problem for me, just as much as it wasn't a problem for her. And so I was really appreciative of her telling me. And I was really excited to meet Forrest. I was really excited to meet the rest of the family just as you all were. 

KARMEL: Thank you. We were excited to meet you too. Jessica, were you nervous to tell Hunter? 

JESSICA: Honestly, no. I think Hunter, just the amazing person that he was, I knew that he'd be just so accepting and loving. And by the way, it was our second date. But you're right, it was the drive-in movie. And I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, Hunter, I don't remember having to do this big sit-down and like, “Hey, I have to tell you something.” I think we were just talking about our families. We were talking about both of our families. And Forrest just came up naturally and I just said, “Oh yeah, and he's gay.” And it didn't feel like I had to sit him down, it was just kind of describing the people that I love. And it felt natural because Forrest being gay, wasn’t the defining thing about who he was. It’s just one part of him. There's other, so many more interesting things about him, like his art and his interests and the story that he was creating and creating art for. So, and I think the way Hunter responded, just like anyone would just talking about their families and I think that's something I really appreciate. And I had a feeling he'd respond in that way, just naturally. That it was really nice to see it actually happen. 

KARMEL: Thank you. I love that. Thank you so much for sharing that. It was almost like Hunter’s response of like, “Yes, and? Do you want some popcorn?” It was a non-issue and so I really appreciate that you responded that way, Hunter. And that you grew up with those types of views that love everyone. And I think it really, really prepared you to meet Jessica and to meet our family, and to meet Forrest. Speaking of that, I do remember when you did come home and first meet the family. And Jessica, you may have even shared this with me ahead of time that Hunter made it a goal to become Forrest’s best friend right away. So where did that instinct come from, Hunter? Was it, “Do you mean of course?” You want to impress the girl, you want to impress the family. But I also do feel like it was genuine and we see that love for Forrest to this day. 

HUNTER: For me wanting to be Forrest’s best friend, just came out of a place of love. And that he deserved love, just as much as anybody else. And I wanted him to get to know me and get to know that that was my first intention, that yes, I love Jessica and I was really excited to be a part of her life. But I was also really excited to be a part of all of your guys' lives as well. And I didn't want to give anybody any more special attention than the other. 

KARMEL: That's wonderful, and to this day you've really lived up to that. So thank you for that. So, Brandon, you met Hunter the same time the rest of the family did. And of course, as Jessica’s brother, you're sizing him up, making sure he's a good partner to your sister. Was his treatment of Forrest part of that calculus in how you viewed Hunter? 

BRANDON: 100%. And I think part of that sizing up is just trying to see are you genuine? Is this your authentic self, right? And for Hunter, there's no question about that at all. So it had just kind of been a concern for any guy wanting to date my older sister. Especially, you know, it’s just a natural instinct for me to want to be protective on that side. And then the other thing is at the time I was at Utah State. Most of the student body there identify as Mormon. And so really like, I have no patience for the kind of summer sales, the Mormon Bro; I've experienced that a number of times, where I know the underlying tone here that you're just trying to get my approval. So you're going to use all these buzz words and fancy talk. I see right through that. With Hunter, there's just no doubt that he was just being his true, authentic, genuine self. And he fit right into our family, where we can all just be weird and geek out and talk about all kinds of things and not have to fear about being judged or criticized about one another. And I really appreciate that. And Hunter fell right in. 

KARMEL: Absolutely 100%. Thank you for sharing that. It’s definitely getting Mom and Dad's approval is one thing, but getting Brandon’s approval is another. So, thank you for passing that test, Hunter, with flying colors. We really, really appreciate that. So, Jessica and Hunter got married the following year in May of 2021. At the time, Forrest had publicly identified as female. But then he came out as transgender in April of 2022. Forrest was 17 years old at the time. Again, he chose a sibling to come out to you first. And this time it was Jessica. So, Jessica, can you share about that moment? 

JESSICA: Yeah, I remember that day and I think the reaction was similar to when I first heard about Forrest came out, like where there’s surprise and just because it wasn't something I was expecting. But again, that surprise faded quickly just seeing how happy he was. And more than anything, I felt just really, really honored for sure. I think I was also surprised too that I was the first person that he came out to at least besides his friends – because I think he did come out to his friends – but the first family member. And because I was still in the church at the time. And so I felt really honored that he felt safe enough to still come out to me, all things considered. Yeah, and I think that I was really honored with that because it kind of showed me that like he trusted us to be the safe space during one of the biggest most vulnerable moments of his life, I would imagine. And again, I was just overall overwhelmingly just so happy. And I think I mentioned earlier how I noticed a huge difference when he came out as gay. I think it just, gosh like that happiness and authenticity and light that I saw in him, I feel like just like doubled, quadrupled as he came out as trans. And, gosh, it's so cool. And I was just love seeing his feistiness come out since he's come out. and I don't know, I just felt really honored knowing that he felt like we were, I was, a safe enough space to come out to me about that. And it was such a privilege to be included in that conversation. I really hope that he walked away from that conversation knowing that he didn't have to be alone and that he could share that. Yeah, I was just so excited to hear that from him. 

KARMEL: Thank you so much. And I believe then you told Hunter about that news before we even knew. And so, Hunter, what was your reaction to the next step in Forrest’s journey?

HUNTER: Yeah, so like Jess said, we were staying in the rental house in Daybreak at this time. And I was actually driving back to the rental house from work in Orem. And so I was calling just to check-in and say, “Hey I'm on my way home, I'll be there in like 30 minutes.” And Jess said, “Oh cool. Maybe we can get some dinner. Also…” and then that's when she told me about Forrest being trans. And for me, it didn't, it still didn't change much in the way that I would view him. It was still that, oh okay. So, Forrest is now Forrest. Great. Is there anything else I need to know? Is he going to be he/they, he/him. Where do we need to be? And so I just wanted to make sure that I got that right the next time that I saw Forrest because, again, to me he was just as deserving of love as anybody else. And I wanted him to see that, that very next time that I would see him. And then we decided to take him out to dinner. And we talked about it just a little bit more at that dinner. But even then, it was a very nonchalant conversation because I think Forrest also knew that I would accept him for who he was as well. 

KARMEL: This is the first time I'm hearing that you took him out to dinner. Was that before they told us? 

HUNTER: Yeah, it was. 

KARMEL: Okay. So again, he was just the same way when they first came out as gay to Brandon, he immediately had the siblings in his corner prior to coming out to Mom and Dad. So thank you all so much for being there for him and being just as affirming and eager to learn more as we all traveled this next journey with him together. So, Brandon, Forrest came out to Jessica and Hunter first as trans. What was your reaction when you first learned about it? 

BRANDON: Oh, I thought it was cool. It made sense to me, when I heard about it for the first time. Just thinking about our childhood in retrospect. Me and Forrest did have the same interest in the same kinds of toys or the same kind of things that would kind of appeal to younger boys at the time. For example, the McDonald's Happy Meals, I remember Forrest hated getting the girl’s version of the toys. He would always exchange it for the boy versions. And I thought that was really cool. And so it made sense when he came out as trans. Looking back he never really liked any of the things that society likes to bucket male and female interests into. And so it was very easy for me to learn about that as it just felt like – kind of like to Hunter’s point – OK, And that’s, Forrest is now Forrest. He’s now able to be themselves. And it just leaves me feeling nothing but happiness for him. 

KARMEL: Thank you so much. Once it happened, I think we all tend to look back when you all were younger and you realized, “Oh yeah. Now it makes sense. It totally makes sense.” So thank you so much for sharing that. Okay, we're actually going to rewind a little bit. Prior to Forrest’s coming out as transgender, to Jessica and Hunter’s wedding in May 2021. So Forrest was out as gay. But was still in the closet as trans. And as you all mentioned, especially you, Brandon, he never liked anything that was stereotypically female. He hated dresses. Did not like makeup. Hated getting his hair done. But because that day was his big sister's wedding day, he was a bridesmaid. And I look back on this as a Mom, not knowing he was transgender at the time, and I basically just forced him, made him wear the bridesmaids dress, the peachy pink bridesmaid dress. I made him get his hair done, made him put on the makeup, made him shave his legs. And I know that was rough on him. He never really complained. But I knew that was hard. And it was hard. And I laid on the mom guilt. And I said, “Do it for your sister. It is her day.” And he did without complaint. But I look back and look back on that day and I looked at the photos of him in that bridesmaid dress, and it kind of breaks my heart. Had I known, he could have worn a suit. He could been who he truly was that day. But just being honest in how it makes me feel now, it is difficult looking at those photos, and him specifically, during what was such a joyful, beautiful day for you, Jessica and Hunter, and looking back how do you feel about that now? Jessica, we can start with you. 

JESSICA: I mean, Hunter and I talk about this quite a bit that I think there's several things I’d change about that day. Obviously, we were still in the church. And so I think we were kind of wrestling with expectations from – Hunter’s family was still pretty strong in the church – and also general cultural expectations of an LDS wedding. And I look at those pictures now, and I think for several reasons, they don't accurately represent our family or us. A lot of those pictures were taken at the temple. All those pictures do include Forrest as a bridesmaid, in a dress. And yeah, honestly, we don't really use those pictures. And going back, I’d change a lot of those things for sure. In the end though, what I cared most about was not Forrest being a bridesmaid or having the exact same dress even though it was part of it. I wanted him in the bridal party because I loved him and he’s an important figure in my life. And it was hard, though, because at the time having those LDS wedding lines and expectations, that looks like putting him in the bridal party in a dress. And now deconstructing the church and deconstructing all that, I know there's multiple ways to represent the people in your life rather than putting them in dresses. And I don't think those pictures accurately represent Forrest. They don’t actually represent our family. And I’m grateful for the family pictures we’ve taken since then.

KARMEL: Thank you. Thanks so much, Jessica. Hunter, do you have any thoughts about that particular day and how did it feel today? 

HUNTER: So Jess already touched on all of this and just the, what we know now versus what we knew then, we would make a lot of changes. Looking at our photos, we don't really use any of those photos for anything because like she said, it's not an accurate representation of our family. And if we could go back and make those changes, we absolutely would. There's one thing that I specifically remember from that day, I think it's when Forrest was getting his foot wrapped. There was something going on or something with the dress. And you guys were all in that room where the bridal party was doing makeup and everything. And we were trying to figure out where the dessert was. Everybody else was scrambling outside trying to figure out where's this cake? Why is it not here? What's going on? And I needed something from Jess. So I had poked my head in to ask her – I think I needed her phone for something to see if she got a different text – but I remember looking at Forrest and he just seemed very miserable being in that situation. And it wasn't from a physical like, oh, there's something wrong with the dress. He just did not look very pleased with how he looked, how he appeared and what was going on. And my heart just broke. It broke then. And now that we know how he is right now, it breaks even more just to think about that day and that expression that I saw in his face. 

KARMEL: Thank you so much for sharing that, the fact that this was your wedding day, really you and Jessica's, but the fact that you were sensitive enough to really recognize and see Forrest that day, that really warms my heart. And I really, really appreciate you sharing that. And that's just a wonderful characteristic of you, Hunter, you see people. And I really, really appreciate that about you. Thank you so much. So let's talk about the relationship now. So, Brandon, how would you describe family dynamics now, fast forward a few years.

BRANDON: I like to say our family is very independent, meaning that each of us will keep to ourselves for a long set of periods of time. I think it's easy for us to – more than the average family – go longer without having daily communication. But with all that being said, it's not like we don't know there’s unconditional love for each other. We know that, maybe if we haven't even texted each other in a whole week or two, that we can still come together on Sunday and still share a meal and share everything that's going on and have everyone's full undivided attention to listen to our problems, talk about anything that's going on in our lives and provide support. I always just feel safe in my parents’ living room, as I've just had many deep conversations with my family members there where I felt very supported and secure. And for that, I'm very grateful and appreciative of that. And I feel like having major events like Forrest’s transition really helps us open our minds, realize that it's so easy to get caught up in society’s expectations for what you should be doing, for how you should be behaving and none of that really matters at the end of the day if you just love one another. And I really feel like I won the family lottery with that. 

KARMEL: Well, thank you. I like to say I won the kid lottery with all of you. So thank you so much for sharing that. Thank you all for just being willing to share all of your stories and vulnerabilities. So, Hunter, I have a question for you. You recently joined the family in a neighborhood Pride celebration, as you all have over the last couple years ever since Forrest came out as gay. So we've been going to Pride celebrations for many years now. But this year, you proudly wore a shirt that said, “Gay the Pray Away”. So what led you to wearing that specific shirt this year? 

HUNTER: Comedy really. I thought it was a really funny shirt. It was a funny way to kind of go against the whole “pray the gay away” stance that a lot of people believe in. And it's something that is very unhelpful. And it's very harmful. And so I, again, love Forrest and I think that everybody who attended that Pride Fest is also just, again, deserving of so much love and care that they probably could be lacking. I'm not sure, but I want to show that I do support them. And if they would need a friend, that I could be there. And at the same time with that shirt, like Jess has said before where we have just left the church, and so we're still going through our deconstructing of all of that. And I do think that there's a lot of hard things when it comes to the LGBTQ community, especially Mormons and how hurtful and harmful it can be to have people in those situations. 

KARMEL: Thank you. I do love how your first response was comedy which it definitely was. It was very amusing to see that you have the ability to be able to be funny in a way that it's still very loving and kind. So, thank you for that. So, Jessica, we’re just going to round out this conversation, tapping into your social work profession. And as a social worker putting on your professional hat, you see clients every day. I'm sure you’ve worked with clients who are LGBTQ+ or in some deconstruction of various different family situations. So, drawing from your own personal experience, and sticking to the subject of siblings of queer kids, what is some practical wisdom for parents of queer and trans kids who also have straight kids at home. And this is really your chance, your voice, to really share what it was like to be the straight kid at home? And what do you need as the straight sibling? What kind of support do you need as well as you're also navigating the journey in supporting your sibling? 

JESSICA: Yeah, gosh, I think that one of the biggest things I've learned is the power of affirmation. And affirmation, being affirming and validating of one’s identity, respecting pronouns and supporting that. It creates psychological safety. There's a lot of strong evidence that queer and trans youth, when they experience acceptance and affirmation, rates of depression, anxiety, self harm, suicide ideation decrease dramatically, and overall being and resilience improve. And family acceptance from siblings and parents is one of the strongest protective factors we know of. And that acceptance can come in many forms. It's just not respecting pronouns. But I think it can also be about celebrating queer joy, celebrating those milestones with any sort of milestone that someone goes through, whether that's starting like HRT or wearing an outfit that helps them to feel that gender euphoria. Celebrating that and it's also huge too, and it's really important to protective factors as well. As a trauma therapist, sometimes the most traumatizing part isn't the event but rather the traumatic invalidation that they get from family members and the people in the situation. And so I think just really leaning into validation. And when I say validation, it doesn't necessarily mean problem-solving or having the answers, but just seeing someone, believing them, and staying connected with them while they go through whatever journey that they're on. And creating that safety in addition to creating moments for queer joy and celebrating that queer joy is huge. As far as what parents can do, I think, give that same space to straight siblings. Create a space for them to ask questions and check in with them and let them know that it's okay to be curious. And just assuring them that they don't have to understand everything and immediately to be a safe person. Listen to them, stay connected. Also, ask questions, do your own research. But ultimately, center the queer sibling and let them teach you about their experience and learn from them. And I think it's important to remember, I think we sometimes think we have to say the right thing, right? I know I’ve definitely gone through that journey. I still go through that sometimes, of how can I be the most affirming? How can I say the right thing? And I think I actually remember, in particular, Forrest telling me that he, himself, can get uncomfortable when he notices people trying to tip-toe, and say the perfect, right thing. I think he just cares more about us just being present and remembering that like we love them and being our own selves with them. 

KARMEL: Thank you. Thank you so much. Just a quick question. Was there any time, Brandon, Jessica, or even Hunter, especially around Pride month or any time during Forrest’s journey over the last several years where you felt like the invisible sibling because all the attention was on Forrest? And what's the best way to navigate that as a parent to ensure that those other siblings still feel seen? Brandon, Jessica, Hunter, either one of you can answer that. And I think the answer is, “No. I felt great.” Then that’s wonderful too. But I want to hold space for some of those siblings who may have felt a little bit of that. 

JESSICA: I would say, I think – and maybe this is just like older-sister complex, feeling like I have to keep everything together. I'm not allowed to struggle – I think it could be part of that too. And I think just checking in, just asking because even if they don't have anything to share, but just knowing that someone's looking out for them makes such a huge difference. 

KARMEL: Thank you. Thank you so much. Well, Hunter, Jessica and Brandon, I just want to thank you so much for being here and sharing in this conversation and for really being honest with your experiences. And as a mom, as a Mama Dragon, you are Forrest’s first allies in the family. And you came in with open arms, open hearts, no hesitation, completely embraced him fiercely and wholeheartedly. And I really, really appreciate that. And you continue to do that to this day. So to all of our listeners out there, if you have a straight child at home, a sibling who’s quietly figuring it out, what it means to love a queer brother or sister, I hope that today's conversation gave you something to bring to them. Ask them how they're doing. Check in with them. Ask them what they're carrying. And I promise they’ll have an answer for you. Thank you again, Brandon, Jessica, and Hunter for being here. And thank you to all for listening to In the Den. I’m Karmel and we will see you next time. 

SARA: Thanks so much for joining us In the Den. Did you know you can connect with our Mama Dragons community on our own free, private, secure platform. In addition to our main support group, we host regional groups for more localized connection and support, and affinity groups to connect moms with shared identities and experiences, including groups for gender diverse parents, political advocacy, mamas of transgender children, mamas of children with special needs, Madres Dragones – our Spanish-speaking moms – and moms of color. We also offer religious-based groups from those grounded in faith to those navigating transitions out of it. Wherever you are, there's a group for you. You can learn more and join by visiting our website at mamadragons.org.

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