Exploring the Intersection of Autism and Gender Diversity

Autism and gender diversity often seem to show up together in our kids. There’s been some really interesting research exploring this correlation, finding that people with autism are more likely than the general population to identify as transgender or gender diverse. That doesn't mean one causes the other, but it does mean that for many of us, learning how to support a trans child has also meant learning about neurodivergence in entirely new ways. What we've discovered along the way is that so many of the things that help autistic kids thrive are the very same things that help us raise queer kids, too. This week In the Den, Sara chats with coach, speaker, and author of Grandparenting on the Spectrum: A Journey from Both Sides of the Desk, Jennifer Kaufman. Jennifer brings a unique perspective, not only as a professional who has spent years supporting families, but also as a grandparent whose own family has walked this journey. Her book is written for grandparents, but honestly, the wisdom reaches far beyond that audience. Whether your child is autistic, ADHD, otherwise neurodivergent, queer, transgender, or some beautiful combination of those identities, we think you'll hear themes that resonate deeply. This conversation is full of practical wisdom, compassion, and reminders that our kids don't need us to fix them—they need us to know them, trust them, and love them for exactly who they are.

Special Guest: Jennifer Kaufman

Jennifer Kaufman brings a perspective on autism that few people can claim. As a school principal with over a decade serving students with autism and the grandmother of a child with autism, she lives this world from both sides. She is the author of Grandparenting on the Spectrum: A Journey from Both Sides of the Desk and speaks to grandparents, families, and first responders about navigating the autism journey with confidence and compassion. She is also the founder of First Response Autism, where she trains police, first responders, and college campus security teams on ways in which to best support autistic and neurodivergent individuals in their communities.

Links from the Show:

• Grandparenting on the Spectrum book
• Grandparenting on the Spectrum Website
• Grandparenting on the Spectrum FB
• First Response Autism Website
• Grandparenting on the Spectrum IG
• Join Mama Dragons today

Go deeper with Empowered Parent Learning - Mama Dragons’ on-demand library of video courses and webinars for parents of LGBTQ+ kids. Two tracks: Parenting Essentials and Parent Advocacy. Free for Mama Dragons members, a small one-time fee for everyone else. Includes Suicide Prevention Training and Parachute eLearning. 

In the Den is made possible by generous donors like you. Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today at www.mamadragons.org. 

Transcript

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SARA: Hi everyone. Welcome to In the Den with Mama Dragons, a podcast and community to support, educate, and empower parents on the journey of raising happy and healthy LGBTQ+ humans. I’m your host, Sara LaWall. I’m a Mama Dragon myself and an advocate for our queer community. And I’m so glad to be part of this wild and wonderful parenting journey with all of you. Thanks for joining us. We’re so glad you’re here. 

Hello, Mama Dragons community. Today, we are digging into a topic so many of us have been talking about in the last few years: autism. And for us, autism and gender diversity often seem to show up together in our kids. And there's been some really interesting research exploring this correlation, finding that people with autism are more likely than the general population to identify as transgender or gender diverse. Now we know that doesn't mean that one causes the other. But it does mean for many of us, we are learning how to support a trans child, has also met learning about neurodivergence in entirely new ways. And some of what we've discovered along the way is that so many of the things that help autistic kids thrive are the very same things that help us raise our queer kids too. And that's what we're going to talk about today with coach, speaker, and author of Grandparenting on the Spectrum: A journey from both sides of the desk, Jennifer Kaufman. Jennifer brings a wonderful perspective, not only as a professional who has spent years supporting families, but also as a grandparent herself, whose own family has been on this journey. And her book is written for grandparents. But, honestly, the wisdom reaches far beyond that audience. So we're going to talk about what it means to build families that are grounded in understanding, how we can better support neurodivergent kids, and why relationships matter so much more than getting everything right. Jennifer, welcome In the Den. We're so glad to have you with us. 

JENNIFER: Thank you so much. That was quite the introduction. 

SARA: Thank you. Well, I’d love to just start with your story, and particularly how did autism become part of your both professional life and your family life? 

JENNIFER: Great question, so interestingly, I started out in my career as an English teacher, just like a regular middle school English teacher. And I also had a huge focus on technology, loved technology. An eighth grader called me a computer geek in disguise and I love that. So as I used technology to support my teaching, I found that other teachers were really interested in it too. And ultimately I really liked having that broader effect on schools. So I went and became a school administrator and found myself working during that period of time as a system technology coordinator at a high school. Interesting, right? 

SARA: Yeah. 

JENNIFER: And I used to work with kids who had learning disabilities, explaining to them things like if you need a computer to read to you, it's really the same as me needing reading glasses. It's not indicative of my ability. It's only indicative of the fact that my eyes aren't functioning as well as they should. And your eyes aren't communicating with your brain, so maybe you need a computer to read you your textbook. So I really liked working with special education populations. So when I got that principal certificate, I started working administratively in schools for students, learners with special needs. But the kids with autism always sort of had a special place in my heart. And working with their families and being able to support them with something that became sort of a passion for me. And I've spent the last six years in one particular school where the entire student population had a diagnosis of autism. 

SARA: Wow.

JENNIFER: Yeah, it was pretty cool. And it was a one-to-one school so everybody had somebody with them. 

SARA: Wow.

JENNIFER: And I worked with most brilliant people truly creating programs to support these kids with a belief that whatever we do in school that's okay. But what really mattered was what we can do outside of school beyond the four walls. So there's a lot of community-based instruction and workplace learning and great things happening. So from there, I was suddenly found myself with this beautiful grandchild who at three years old was diagnosed with autism. And he could have very well been one of the students at my school. So I'm like, “Okay, I'm ready for this because I have all the research and I have all the resources and here I go.” And boy was I wrong, because my daughter was not looking for Principal Mom to show up and attend her IEP meeting with her. She was just looking for Mom. And it was an interesting experience. And that’s sort of motivated me to write my book, Grandparenting on the Spectrum. And what I also learned was that even as a mother – this is like more of a universal theme – even as a mother, I thought I've raised a couple of kids to adulthood and I know this thing, parenting. I know a little bit about it. But when it came to a child with autism, I was not the expert. And I quickly learned that the expert was my daughter and her husband. 

SARA: Wow. 

JENNIFER: Yeah. 

SARA: That's a great story and such a beautiful and important distinction. And I appreciate that. It's a really great starting place for all of us. And because you have had so much experience, I wonder if you could take us through a sort of quick tutorial of the contemporary understanding of Autism Spectrum Disorder. 

JENNIFER: To really boil it down to a nutshell, it's a neurological condition that affects communication. It affects your social skills. It can affect learning. There are different comorbidities that can be part of Autism Spectrum Disorder. And really it presents itself differently in every single person. 

SARA: Yes, yeah, I think we're seeing that more and more that it isn't just one thing that is really quite a broad spectrum and it can look very different from child to child.

JENNIFER: Very different. 

SARA: As you were having your own grandparenting experience and then working on this book, what were some of the most common mistakes that you made or that you think grandparents make? I think you kind of touched on a couple there . . . 

JENNIFER: Yeah. 

SARA: . . . in this journey of learning and supporting their neurodivergent and autistic grandkids.

JENNIFER: Yeah, I did touch on a couple of them. I think that the biggest takeaway that I got from all of the interactions that I had with my daughter was that it was on me and my responsibility to really shift my expectations as a grandparent.

SARA: How so? Say more about that. 

JENNIFER: Many of us have had grandparents that were wonderful grandparents. I had wonderful grandparents. I look back on experiences that I had with my own grandmother and I've always said, “Well, someday when I’m a Grandma, I'm going to be making the cookies or going for going for walks in the park,” or whatever, having those experiences that I had celebrating the holidays the way my grandma celebrated the holidays, right? You have all these traditions. And so I went into this experience thinking it's going to continue. And shifting my expectations because really sometimes it's not possible. When we have children, grandchildren with autism, sometimes we have to let them lead the way. And we have to honor that. 

SARA: Yeah, do you have a good example or a story for us? 

JENNIFER: Yeah, a big example that I use is Thanksgiving, because here in the States, we have like, “We're going to eat the turkey. We're going to have the pumpkin pie.” Right? “We're going to all sit around the table and do our thing.” It's an expectation that so many families have. And when you have a child who is neurodiverse, or who has autism, that all might be a little much. Right? 

SARA: Oh yeah. 

JENNIFER: They might not be willing or able, for whatever reason, to sit down at the table and to have a meal with you. And you know what? I've learned very quickly: that's okay. And if somebody is overwhelmed because there's just too many people in the room and there's just too much sound and they want to go to a quiet area, that's okay too. Focusing on what really matters, focusing on the togetherness of a family, whatever that looks like, was something that I learned and that I write about in my book because you really have to look at what is important. What is important? Is it really eating turkey? Is that really what's important? 

SARA: I think sometimes – and I will speak from my own experience as a parent in a situation – that there are a lot of societal expectations around behaviors and norms that perhaps we don't realize our societal expectations. And so when we have neurodivergent kids who don't conform to those, it often gets interpreted as just being oppositional, right? 

JENNIFER: Right. Right.

SARA: Or resistant in some way. And I think there's a struggle there to get to a place to realize, oh, actually this is my child who needs different things in order to show up in a way that seems obvious, maybe, to some of us. Can you talk a little bit about your experiences with that, with all of the different children that have been in your professional world? 

JENNIFER: Absolutely. If you walked through my school, you'd sometimes see kids lying on the floor, working their programs and doing their learning. I've actually had staff members that are neurodiverse that, in order to support them, I have a very open door policy. And I would say, if you need some kind of accommodation to support you in terms of sensory or other needs and you want to, during a staff meeting lie on the floor in the back of the room sketching because that helps you focus on what's happening at the front of the room. Why can't that be okay? 

SARA: Yeah, that is such a good question. Those are exactly the scenarios that I'm thinking about that I think take a lot of work for parents, teachers, support people to recognize that that is a way that they are plugging in. 

JENNIFER: Absolutely and you know there's one person who's very dear to me who I'm thinking about. She was an employee who had some needs and we couldn't always accommodate those needs in the workplace, right? So if you're wearing headphones, noise reduction headphones in the classroom with small children and you can't hear what's going on, that might be an accommodation that we have to say no, but this is why and what else can we do. 

SARA: That's great.

JENNIFER: Being open to having those conversations as a school leader is really crucial to the success of everyone. 

SARA: Yeah. And it seems that that's true for our kids, too. Rather than just setting some expectation, because I will notice our neurodivergent kids will question those kinds of expectations that don't make sense to them. 

JENNIFER: Exactly. 

SARA: And so having a conversation about when and how. And yes, this is okay here, but maybe not here and here's why. It takes a lot more preparation, I think, and conversation. I was reading, doing a little bit of reading in preparation for this and have experienced this myself about, particularly in school, about kids with autism who just flat out refuse to do things because it doesn't make sense, because they don't understand the why behind it. 

JENNIFER: Yes, the why is so important. Why? Because rules without being able to explain the why, are very difficult for people who are neurodiverse. They're very difficult for me to understand. I really need that why, because then I remember it. I remember the rule a little better and I can conform to it or I can have a conversation about why that might be difficult. 

SARA: You talk a lot about building meaningful connections. Can you share a little bit about what that means and what that looks like for grandparents in the family dynamic? 

JENNIFER: Sure. What pops to mind is something that I tell grandparents and that is, “You do not have to be perfect. You do not have to have all the knowledge. And it might be a little uncomfortable. You might not know what to do or say. But showing up is the way to keep those connections going. And then listening to what is needed from the child or young person if they’re able to tell you or from the parents and then following through, and not just spinning it and doing what you want because maybe you didn't quite like what you were told.” 

SARA: Yeah.

JENNIFER: That's how you start to build meaningful connections. You present yourself as a resource, and as a person to be trusted. Family relationships are hard. They're so difficult, right? 

SARA: Yes. 

JENNIFER: So much history and so much sometimes conflict. But the here-and-now and presenting yourself as somebody willing to learn and to be open to change. Yeah, it's important. 

SARA: Yeah.

JENNIFER: It’s important. 

SARA: You also mentioned about creating comfortable environments for visits. 

JENNIFER: Yes.

SARA: Can you talk a little bit, give us some of the specifics about what might that look like? 

JENNIFER: Well, for us it looks like a special little corner of a guest room where there are familiar items. In this case there's a little train set and there's some familiar books that only stay at grandma's house because when he comes over he looks for those things. And he knows. Maybe there are headphones available, maybe you figure out in advance, well, what food is he eating these days or she eating? What's working for them and setting that up in advance so that the child knows if it's all just a little too much, there's a familiar place that they can go. 

SARA: That's great. Yeah. And you also mentioned it earlier and I'm curious, in your example about Thanksgiving, you also talk about redesigning or developing different special traditions that are more accommodating. Can you share an example with us? 

JENNIFER: Oh boy, well, we'd like to, I have a place down at the Jersey Shore and sometimes, well often, we actually celebrate down there. And one of the traditions is now we go for a long walk on the boardwalk. But it's not just a walk on the boardwalk. It's a walk that involves a lot of rituals that my grandson likes, a lot of talking and pointing to light posts and flags and doing all of those routines that make him feel secure. And even if it's drizzling out or if it's cold, whatever the weather, we still make sure we go out there and we do that. And that's sort of the tradition at this point. And it's special and we all look forward to it. 

SARA: That's great, that's really lovely. You mentioned this earlier and I know you spent some time talking about the family system and supporting the whole system, and how to figure out what your unique role as a grandparent would be. Can you talk a little bit about what that feels like and looks like, and how grandparents can support the family system? And I want to pause here in particular and say that this piece in particular of the conversation feels like it can cross neurodivergence. This is just good grandparenting. 

JENNIFER: Yeah, it's sort of universal design. 

SARA: Yeah, exactly. 

JENNIFER: Yeah, because good communication is just crucial. It's more evident when a child has special needs, but really, good communication no matter who you are, as a grandparent. A grandparent who is inserting themselves into the conversation and insisting on their own way and people conform to their opinions, isn't going to do any family any good. And I've seen it. I've seen it in my own school where grandparents come to meetings, and you think the meeting is all about the grandparents and not the child. So as a grandparent, we like to think of ourselves as the elders, a little wiser, a little smarter. And I had somebody tell me long ago – it was actually my dad said to me, because I used to fight with my brother and I was the older one, or he would fight with me – And he used to say to me, “You're the older one and you're smarter, right?” And I'd go, “Oh yeah, I'm smarter. I've got all the experience.” And he would say, “Well then it’s your responsibility to guide the situation.” And I was like, “That's not fair.” But now that I am an adult, I look back on that advice and I'm like, really, it is my responsibility. If I want to think of myself as sort of the sage or the elder, the matriarch of the family, I want to apply that philosophy. And I want to really listen to what is needed for my daughter, parents of neurodiverse and autistic and special needs children live with this 24-7. And it is such an incredibly difficult, difficult job. And they have to devote themselves to it. And often they're up in the middle of the night and they're dealing with physicality and they're dealing with so, so many components that are challenging. And being able to present yourself as a truly concerned person who is there to support, not to criticize and not to judge, is such a gift that a grandparent – or any other family member – could give parents.

SARA: That is such a gift. And I'm thinking also about the intersection of gender diversity and queerness and neurodivergence, because there's a lot of crossover not just in statistics, about gender diversity and autism, but just in family relationships, right, and family dynamics. And grandparents and parents and conflict that often comes up when we are learning to parent and be a family with queer kids as they’ve come out to their family members. And I'm curious if you've seen – because it occurs to me that there's probably some generational differences that grandparents need to work through. And even as a parent, that I've noticed that in parenting and the way we understand parenting and the way we understand neurodivergence and the needs of our kids, that's just changing all the time. And so what it looked like for me and then what it looked like for my kids’ grandparents is completely different. And that takes a lot of awareness and unlearning. 

JENNIFER: Yes. Absolutely. That's such a good point. For decades, if not centuries, kids were raised in a certain way. Don't speak until you're spoken to, and a lot of disciplinary kinds of things that weren’t necessarily for the betterment of their children. I think that with all of the autism and neurodiversity topics that are now part of our conversation, I hope that it ultimately leads society as a whole to really, and I think it has, reflect on what was in the past and where we are headed. And I think that supporting people with love and caring and compassionate understanding and empathy, all of those words are now part of that conversation. So grandparents, if you're listening, if you read my book, don't sit in the past. Just continue to learn and continue to grow and understand that our children are not the same children from 40 years ago. 

SARA: Yes. Well, and I want to go back to a specific thing that you talked about in terms of accommodations both in school, but we could translate that into the home life too. What kinds of things does my child need, do any of us need, to be the most relaxed and successful in whatever environment they're in? I'm imagining that there are probably some grandparents out there that this episode will reach who don't know what accommodations means in this current moment. Can you explain that a little bit and give us some examples? 

JENNIFER: I'll put it in really simple terms. I have a Diet Coke sitting next to me right now, because the Diet Coke sort of calms me down a little bit. And I enjoy the taste of it and even like the sound of pouring it into the glass. It’s my accommodation. An accommodation can be really anything from noise-reduction headphones to maybe a notebook that a child likes to sketch in. My grandson, his accommodations, we keep the volumes low on things and if you start singing, he will tell you, “No sing,” because for some reason singing does not, in this particular juncture, appeal to him. And that's fine. And we accommodate him because we love him and care for him and we want him to be happy. And we know that maybe next week we can sing, or maybe not. But we try to support those that we love no matter what they need. 

SARA: Yes, as an educator, how might you coach parents to learn about, advocate for accommodations in the school system, particularly parents who might be new on this journey, or who might find themselves in a position of having to educate the educators who might not be as knowledgeable as you are. 

JENNIFER: It's a tough job because something as simple as just giving a child more processing time, which really doesn't involve any kind of materials or huge changes. It just gives them a little more processing time. It's something that many educators that I've come across are unaware of as an accommodation. I think that if you are a parent having the conversations with your team at school, making sure that you have a team and you know who your team is at school. Starting with you know a case manager, starting with a teacher. If you have a supervisor of special services in your school, getting people involved, having assessments done, evaluations, so that you know exactly, maybe it's an assistive-technology evaluation, or speech, or a physical therapist can come in and evaluate and do a report on what works for your child and what is needed so that they can succeed. 

SARA: Thank you. Yeah, I think that's often a really, really challenging obstacle for parents. And school systems, teachers vary and I have memories of sometimes having to really fight and advocate with particular teachers or administrators and then others who were just right there, like got it immediately. 

JENNIFER: Yeah I think that familiarizing yourself as a parent with state law, federal law, though those are changing. But particularly your state law. I'm here in New Jersey and we have really great systems in place for our kids with special needs. And then being able to go into the school district and say, “We're entitled to these things. We're entitled to evaluations or a special out of district school if you can't provide us with appropriate accommodations and support for our child.” 

SARA: Yeah, that's so helpful. So important. Thank you. One of the things that I think about in parenting, both in that neurodivergent world and in queer identity of any kind, is that oftentimes when parents are bringing the grandparents along, it can feel like they are having to carry everyone else's emotional work, a little extra emotional labor there. So trying to have to manage the journey of everybody, including their kids. Talk about that a little bit. What would it look like for a grandparent? What are some tips that you might have for grandparents to do some of that work with themselves? 

JENNIFER: You know, what comes to mind – correct me if this isn't quite where you were going with this – but I think about the phrase, “Let me know what I can do for you.” Because when a grandparent says to their family members, their adult children, who are working to support their own children, “Let me know what I can do for you.” It puts the burden on the parents to tell them what they need. So I used to say to my daughter, “Let me know what I can do for you.” She would go, “It's okay. I'm fine. Everything's good.” Because parents don't necessarily, nobody really, likes to ask for help a lot of times. 

SARA: Yeah. Well, there's a dynamic in that relationship, too, that as a parent with your parents, wanting to be seen as a good parent, as “I know what I'm doing.”

JENNIFER: Right exactly. “I know what I'm doing. Don’t worry. I’ve got this.” And going into a situation -- like I mentioned my little shore house – when I get down there I have that place because it's 10 minutes from my daughter. And I won't say to her like, “Oh if you need me to babysit I'm here.” What I’ll say to her is, “Bring them over on Friday night. Pick them up on Saturday morning. And go out with your husband. Go have fun.” And she's like, “Are you sure?” I’m like, “Absolutely it's my pleasure.” Sometimes it's difficult and sometimes I'm tired or sometimes I have to cancel plans to do that. But I don't mind because I know that I'm showing up in a way that helps support her and her husband. And that's what matters and that's how you build the connections, you look at what's needed or what – of course it’s not always perfect. She might be busy that night – But you look at what you can do and you offer specific help versus, “Let me know if there's anything I can do.” 

SARA: Yeah. That's just generally really great advice. We talk about that a lot whenever anyone is in crisis . . .  

JENNIFER: Yeah, yeah.

SARA:  . . . to just be specific or even to get people comfortable to say you can just show up on someone's doorstep with something, right? We've created this construct that somehow that's impolite. But in moments of difficulties…

JENNIFER: Don't make your offer of help more of a burden for the other person, right?

SARA: Yes. Yes. What about when it comes to expressing worry and concern? How do you navigate that? 

JENNIFER: That's a tough one. I navigate it very carefully because I never want to make it seem like I'm critical of the job, that very difficult job that my daughter and her husband have. I think that restraint is important. I think that phrasing – you’re laughing – I think that phrasing is incredibly important. Toilet training, let's put that out there. Toilet training, right, all sorts of kids, all sorts of ages, have challenges with toilet training and my grandson being one of them. And rather than saying, “This is what you should do because I have access to all sorts of experts and authors and articles, research, data.” Rather than saying, “This is what you should do. Look at this. This is what you need to do.” It falls on deaf ears. It falls on resistant ears because it presents itself as like “You're doing something wrong. Here's how you can fix it.” I might just email articles and say like, “Hey, I found this interesting. Tuck it away. Maybe you’ll use it someday.” Just in a very non-threatening way. 

SARA: Yeah. Yeah. 

JENNIFER: It's important. 

SARA: It is. I've noticed that that can be a real tricky space. 

JENNIFER: Yeah. Here's the other little catch phrase that you may have heard before, but I think it's really relevant here, and that is “curiosity over judgment.” 

SARA: Yeah. 

JENNIFER: You know, asking questions. Why does that happen that way? What do you think he always needs that cup to drink out of it? Why? And not, “Why, give me an answer.” Just like, Hey, I'm curious. I’m just curious” And sometimes I do that and I get answers like, “I don't know.” And we have little discussions about it. But it’s non-threatening and it's non-judgmental. 

SARA: Yeah. You know, all of your tips – I think I've said this already – but I just keep thinking this advice works really well for queer kids too. 

JENNIFER: Absolutely. 

SARA: And the family dynamics and grandparent relationships. Why do you think those principles translate so well? 

JENNIFER: Because I think they're based in kindness. I think they're based in this universal themes of love and caring and leaving your own ego and your own desires for things to be a certain way, leaving them outside and approaching the situation in a much more caring way. I'll share something with you. As a principal. I have a sign on my desk and it said, “Be kind.” And that sign never faced the people sitting at my desk. The sign faced me because it was a reminder to me to be kind because everybody's walking in different shoes and everybody's walking in different paths. And you know, I tell my parents at school, this is not a race to a common finish line. This is a unique journey that every single person is on, whether you have autism or not, whether you are queer or not, it's a very unique journey and we have to respect each other's journeys. 

SARA: That's beautiful. And your tip about curiosity really goes along with that, that we can really activate that kindness by being more, more genuinely curious about the experience of other people. 

JENNIFER: Yeah. It's amazing once you start just asking questions and questions that are based in curiosity. It builds trust. It shows concern and caring and an interest. Asking so many questions about them, versus you talking about yourself and it changes the conversation even if you're just talking to a friend. 

SARA: Yeah, that's very true. I think a little bit about neurodivergence, especially as it's emerging and changing in kids and queer identity as well in the family. And there's this continuum, I think, of where we, parents, grandparents, close family, there's a tolerating. There's the tolerating, like “I've gotten to the place where I can tolerate it, but it might make me uncomfortable,” moving towards acceptance. Do you have some advice for folks about – there's a lot in neurodivergence that can make other people uncomfortable because they don't understand it or because it seems so foreign to their own experience or life's expectations. How do we help each other get to accept, true acceptance? 

JENNIFER: We have conversations like this. We expose ourselves to information, opinions, conversations. I mean, there's so much out there now and we're so lucky to be living in the time that we're living because we have access to just a tremendous amount of information. And the word ‘tolerance’ drives me insane because I feel like I don't want to just be tolerated – Maybe it's a good, really quick first step – but there has to be evolution beyond tolerance because acceptance and support and caring is not tolerance. Tolerance is just like, “Yeah, I'm going to put up with you. I'll deal. OK.” Yeah, I picture you rolling your eyes and, “Alright. I’ll tolerate you.” No, that's just, if that's your jumping in points, okay? But you've got to keep going. 

SARA: Yeah. How do you push through the discomfort when you're faced with a behavior and interaction or a situation that is new and feels really unnerving or uncomfortable? How do you move through that? 

JENNIFER: Well, I can speak from my personal experience that I sort of challenge myself internally to stay, to stand, be steady, be steadfast. And understand that, yeah, there's something happening here, it's a kid at school or if it's in my own family, sort of putting it out there that I'm here to help, if you just say the word, I'm here to help if there's a behavior happening. But I don't want to intervene because, again, the parents know best. I think that it just takes an internal strength that we have to draw upon from ourselves to really stay. 

SARA: Yeah.

JENNIFER: Not shy away, parents, I've heard of grandparents who just do not have contact with their adult children and their grandchildren because they don't know what to do. And that's what they say, “I don't know what to do.” 

SARA: Wow. That's very sad. And I also hear you saying that part, that the stay is also about allowing the discomfort to be there. Sitting with it and continuing to be present but recognizing that it's okay that this is coming up. “How do I stay in it? “

JENNIFER: Yeah, “How do I stay in it? How do I stay in it?” And honestly, I have, I'll speak from the heart here. I have gotten off the phone with my daughter at times where maybe I didn't agree with something or I heard behaviors happening in the background. And I don't know what to do or what to say. And I get off the phone and then I'll say to my husband like, “What just happened there?” And we might process it out and have a conversation. But I wouldn't dare do that with my family member, my daughter, because she's got enough on her plate. And we really, if we think of ourselves as supporting our adult children, we have to think of them very holistically. And we have to think of them as really working so hard to support their own children in ways that us supporting our children when they were little can’t even be imagined. Right? So making sure that we keep that stress, that, again, opinions and judgments away from the adult parents. It just does no one any good. 

SARA: Well, and we talk a lot about that in settings with their queer kids too, even as the parent, right, finding those safe places that I can seek support and process with others away from my child is really important. 

JENNIFER: Right.

SARA: So I'm not subjecting them to all of my stuff. 

JENNIFER: Right, because you have your stuff. Everybody's got their stuff. And you might see things or hear things that like, blow your minds. But in the moment, you listen, maybe ask some questions, but do not judge and then go away and then go like, “What was that all about? Let's talk about that.” Because it's just not fair to the person to criticize or be negative. If I come home from getting my hair cut or something and somebody in my family is like, “Oh, that's terrible. What did you do?” I’ll be in tears. But he can go say it to his friend, “I don't know when she did there.” But like get it out of your system. 

SARA: Get out of your system. Yeah. 

JENNIFER: Yeah. Because honestly, in the long run, it's your actions that matter. And if you have a knee-jerk reaction to something, just keep it away, process it, and then move on. 

SARA: Oh, this is good. I want to ask you about repair. As grandparents and parents, because I think this is true across relationships. We all, like you said, we all have our own stuff. We all have been in a moment of reactivity or where we said the thing out loud that we shouldn’t have. How do we go about repairing when those moments come up? And can you talk about your relationship with your daughter, your parent-to-adult child relationship but then also with your grandchild? 

JENNIFER: So, in terms of repair, biting that bullet and saying, “I am sorry, I made a mistake. I would like to do better. Let's talk about how I can do better.” It's very, you make yourself very vulnerable by putting that out there. And somebody might say to you, your adult child might say to you, “Yeah, you made a mistake. You made a mistake.” And you sort of have to take that because you let them process your mistake. And you hope to learn and improve and grow. And that's what we're all trying to do on this planet. 

SARA: Yeah. 

JENNIFER: And what was the second question? 

SARA: Then what does repair look like with your neurodivergent grandchild? 

JENNIFER: I was just thinking about this this weekend because I was with him this weekend. And he does not like dogs barking. And I have a neighbor whose dog barks. And the dog was barking, he was screaming, like screeching, and I was thinking, “Oh my gosh my other neighbors are going to be complaining because of all of this screaming.” And I was like, “You need to stop. You need to stop.” And to this moment, I feel bad that I was saying to him, “You need to stop,“ because he couldn't stop. That was his thing. The dogs were barking. And my genius of a husband came and he goes, “Alexa, put on a white noise. Blast it.” And it totally blocked out the dog's backing. And then the screaming stopped and we moved on. But it was a moment. It was a moment that he's probably moved on from that. But it affects me because like “You need to stop. You need to stop,” because I'm human too. And we're all going to make mistakes. And that’s the way it is.

SARA: And I appreciate that vulnerable share because it also reminds us that no matter how far along we are in this, there is still that part of us that is influenced a little bit – that voice in the back of the head – by what other people might think.

JENNIFER: Absolutely. 

SARA: And I know that comes up a lot around neurodivergence and kids and what looks like what some people might categorize as bad behavior. 

JENNIFER: Right. You know, here's something really interesting. I just had a conversation with my daughter because I am doing some work in corporate and retail looking at the supports that they're putting in place for people with neurodivergence. And I was talking to her and I said, “You know, do you think that some of the things they’re doing, like quiet hours say, are just performative? Or are these really things that are helping?” And she said, she got a little upset. She said, “These are not things that are performative. These are things.” She said, “When I know there are quiet hours at a store, I am much more likely to take my son to those stores, because I know…” – and I thought she was going to say it was good for him. That is not what she said – She said, “I take him because I know that people shopping during those hours will know that if there's a behavior, it's okay.” 

SARA: Wow. 

JENNIFER: And I thought, wow, the focus on other people and being considerate of other people, that wasn’t something I had really considered. I thought it was more, well, it's more comfortable for the person with the neurodivergence. 

SARA: Yeah, that's really interesting. That is such a good example. Some practical parenting questions for you. What's one thing you wish every parent and grandparent understood about raising a neurodivergent child? 

JENNIFER: This might be unexpected, but I would say that people with autism and neurodivergence are more likely to be drawn to water. And 93% – this was a statistic from two years ago – 93% of accidental deaths among people who are autistic, involved water and drowning. 

SARA: Wow.

JENNIFER: And I always put that out there because of that reaction, you just said “Wow.” It might as well be 100%. 93%. 

SARA: Yeah. I had no idea. That is unexpected and thank you for naming that. That feels really important. 

JENNIFER: It's super important. And if you are a grandparent, an aunt, an uncle, a friend who can afford to get your loved one swimming lessons that are appropriate to whatever challenges they’re facing, please do so. Because swimming lessons, I just saw my grandson swim independently for the first time last month. And we’ve had close calls with water too. So I highly recommend, I always try to put that in every appearance that I do because I just think if it saves one person. 

SARA: Yeah, exactly. How might we balance helping kids with neurodivergence and autism grow without trying to change fundamentally who they are? 

JENNIFER: That's a really good question. We don't want to put limits on them. We don't want to say, “I'm not going to teach you this or that or let you explore the world because I don't think you can do it.” I think that, I'm trying to think of, there's a term that we use about just not putting limits because they will -- if you put a limit, chances are, they're going to surpass whatever limit you put in place. Just as this weekend, we were at a restaurant, eating outside. And there was a splash pad nearby. It was maybe 30 feet away from where we were sitting having lunch. And I saw him looking. And I saw my grandson looking and looking. Finally I said to him, “Do you want to go over there?” And he got up and he walks out of the little restaurant eating area and he was standing at the splash pad watching the water and the kids. And my husband said to me, “One of us needs to go over there.” I said “Why?” And he said, “Well, what if somebody comes and takes him or what if he runs away?” I said, “Well, we’ll get up and we'll go after him. No one's going to take him. And if they do, we’re sitting right here.” But watching him experience the world in an independent way without somebody saying, “Hold my hand,” or “Come stand next to me.” There’s a slight, I guess, risk or uncomfortableness for me. But I understand the value of independence and growth and letting go. 

SARA: And I think that's a really difficult path for parents. 

JENNIFER: Yes.

SARA: Because in the younger ages, they require so much more specific support and handholding. And it's hard to grow with that. It's hard to kind of recognize that there might come a point when they don't need as much of that anymore. You're just so used to doing that. 

JENNIFER: Right.

SARA: And to really pay attention, when are those moments where you can let go and let them push their limits and be more independent and experience the world even – I'm thinking even if your grandson were to get soaking wet and freak out – right, which would happen.

JENNIFER: Right. We take our kids at school to Target and Wal-Mart and different stores and they shop for items. But at a certain point the person that's with them pulls away and sort of shadows them and allows them to have that independence and to do it on their own. 

SARA: Yeah. 

JENNIFER: It's difficult. 

SARA: It is difficult. And the flip side of that that I'm also curious about is, is when to push? Particularly with kids with autism and neurodivergence, I think that is always a bit of a struggle for parents is, there are hard things in life and you're going to need to know how to deal with them. And it's really hard to know when to push them just a little bit into those more uncomfortable challenging spaces, because I think our instinct is to protect. 

JENNIFER: Absolutely, and I'm thinking about reading, in particular, because – and I know it's not a dangerous skill – but many of our kids can't read or read minimally. And sometimes we're working for a long time, years, on just letter identification. And the philosophy at my school is, we pull away from reading and we stop it for a while. And we might go back to it a year later and the child is more ready for it. And it's, when to push, it's a balance. But there is no growth, if you’re looking for growth and the growth is just not happening, then maybe it's time to focus on other skills and return to it at a later date when that growth can take place. 

SARA: Yeah, that's a great example. I think that has been, particularly for me as my child is older, that's the crux, the when to push, when to protect, when to support, when to let go.

JENNIFER: Right.

SARA: It’s a completely different equation than it was when they were younger. 

JENNIFER: Right. Right. 

SARA: What has your grandchild taught you? 

JENNIFER: Oh, I know the answer to that one. And that is absolutely living in the moment and enjoying things that maybe nobody else noticed, the pattern of the fence posts or the flags waving in the breeze. To live in the moments and to just take joy in the things that are around you. And if you don't like somebody, you want them to be quiet. Maybe you should tell them once in a while. This is like, “Okay, no talk.” “Really?” “No talk.” And it was sort of the family joke for a while. And then we were thinking about it and we said, “Well, he just needs alone time. People are around him all the time talking. And he just wants to sit on the couch and look at a book or a tablet, whatever. And he doesn’t want us bothering him.” And I'm so happy he's advocating for himself.

SARA: Yeah.

JENNIFER: You know, shifting the thought from, “You can't tell me to be quiet,” to, “Excellent job advocating for yourself.” You know?

SARA: Yeah. And then, reminding ourselves, the adults, like, “Okay, then I need to respect this.” 

JENNIFER: Right. Yeah. It was funny because it started with “No talk” and then it was “No sing.” “No whisper.” We've tried it all. Yeah.

SARA: What's the thing that you've learned from kids with autism and neurodivergence that perhaps you can see has made you a better human being?

JENNIFER: I have seen such growth and progress in kids that you wouldn't have imagined the growth and progress. And they achieved it through such hard work on their part and not giving up. And it's like, if they can work so hard to achieve what they've achieved, then I have no excuse. 

SARA: That's wonderful. That feels like a great place to end the conversation.

JENNIFER: Thank you.

SARA: Thank you, Jennifer, for this wonderful conversation. It's always such an interesting topic, and one that is just so prevalent in our community. So I’m very grateful and I want to remind our listeners that we'll list Jennifer's book, Grandparenting on the Spectrum, in our Mama Dragons book shop and links to Jennifer's website in the show notes so folks know how to find you and learn more about what you have to offer. I really appreciate your time. 

JENNIFER: Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity 

SARA: Before you go, everything we talked about today and a whole lot more lives in Empowered Parent Learning, our on demand library of courses and webinars for parents of LGBTQ kids. This is free for members and a small, one-time fee for everyone else. It includes our Suicide Prevention Training, Parachute E-learning, and so much more. The link is in our show notes. You don't have to do this alone. We're in it together. 

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