What To Do BEFORE Your Child Comes Out

We talk a lot about what happens when our kids come out. How do we respond? What do we say? How do we make sure they know they’re loved? But there’s another question we should be asking as well: What are we doing before they ever come out to make sure they already know they’re safe? Our kids are paying attention. They hear how we talk about LGBTQ people. They notice how we respond to a trans person on TV or someone who comes out at school. They hear what our churches and our communities are saying, and even if they haven’t told us anything about themselves, they may already be wondering, “If this is who I am, will I still belong here?”Today In the Den, special guest and past Mama Dragon blog editor Laura Leavitt talks with Sara about how we can create homes where our kids don't have to wait until they're ready to come out to know that they are loved, welcomed, and safe, and there there is nothing about who they are that could ever change that.

 Special Guest: Laura Leavitt

Laura Howells Leavitt is married to Glen and is the mother to six wonderful kids and Lolly (her grandma name) to six beautiful grand kiddos.  She was born and raised in Long Beach, CA and has been a resident of Twin Falls, ID for 23 years.  She got her teaching degree from Idaho State University shortly after getting married but primarily was a stay-at-home mom.  She was the blog editor for Mama Dragons from 2020-2022, gathering over 80 stories from moms of LGBTQ kids, who had so much wisdom, courage and goodness to share through their stories.  Laura has volunteered through hospice and teaching art to 4th graders and loves gardening, travel and being involved in community theater.

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Transcript

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SARA: Hi everyone. Welcome to In the Den with Mama Dragons, a podcast and community to support, educate, and empower parents on the journey of raising happy and healthy LGBTQ+ humans. I’m your host, Sara LaWall. I’m a Mama Dragon myself and an advocate for our queer community. And I’m so glad to be part of this wild and wonderful parenting journey with all of you. Thanks for joining us. We’re so glad you’re here. 

Hello, Mama Dragons. You know, we talk a lot about what happens after our kids come out or when they come out to us. And how we respond and what do we say and what do we do and where do we go? How do we make sure they know they're loved? But there's also another question that many of us and our communities might want to be asking, which is, what are we doing before they ever come out to make sure they already know that they are safe to be who they are? Because our kids are paying attention, they hear how we talk about queer people. They notice how we respond to a trans person we might see on TV or someone who comes out at their school or we hear what our churches and communities are saying. And it’s a hot button subject right now. And so even if they haven't told us anything about themselves, they may already be wondering if this is who I am, will I still belong here? So our guest today has heard a lot of those stories. Laura Howells Leavitt was the Mama Dragons blog editor from 2020 to 2022, gathering more than 80 stories from moms of LGBTQ+ kids. She heard stories of fear and mistakes, but also incredible courage, love and transformation. And Laura's here with us today to talk about how we can create homes where our kids don't have to wait till they're ready to come out to know that if they do, they will be loved and welcomed and safe for exactly who they are, where they know there is nothing about who they are that could ever change that. So Laura, welcome In the Den. It's so good to have you with us. 

LAURA: Well, thank you, Sarah. It's really wonderful to be here. I'm honored, thanks. 

SARA: Oh, you're welcome. You know, it's been a bit, a few years since you were gathering and editing those stories for the Mama Dragons blog and you read and collected more than 80 stories from moms of queer kids. What did hearing that many stories teach you about parenting? 

LAURA: It's going to make me cry. It honestly felt like Christmas every time I would get sent a beautiful story because they're so vulnerable and those moms were so open and they were so honest and they were so brave. I just felt like it was a sacred gift that they were offering not only to me but the world. And just to read their sorrow and their challenge and their abiding love and their commitment to their child was just absolutely – just exploded my heart and made it a thousand times bigger and I'm just really, really, I felt very humble to be in that position to receive such sacred offerings. 

SARA: And were there things that you gleaned, as a parent yourself, having been through this, right, as a parent of a queer child? Were there things that you gleaned that showed up as sort of common threads in this journey of moms who were trying to figure out how to parent and love and support their queer child?

LAURA: Yeah, absolutely. And I was rereading some of those stories recently, and definitely there was a topic. Mostly that's of love that just came forth so clearly. And I'd love to share a couple of the things that I learned from those moms. 

SARA: Yes, share one of them with us. 

LAURA: I would love to. So some of you may know Carol Lynn Pearson, who recently passed away. She was my hero. She was an LDS, author, poet, LGBTQ advocate extraordinaire and one of my favorite people. And she actually said yes to be invited to write something and I just wanted to share a few of her words if that's okay. 

SARA: Please do.

LAURA: She said, “Hi dear Mama Dragons.” She's always so grateful for the good work we're doing, so happy to be our friend. And she talked about how her dear husband Gerald – he was gay for those of you who might not know and they ended up parting ways but they stayed friends and she just loved him and he eventually passed away of AIDS and she was there by his side and learned so much from him – But she said her dear husband Gerald was quite certain that nature or God created gay men to gentle the world to temper the toxicity of what manhood had sometimes come to. She said, “Figuring all that out is way beyond my spiritual pay grade. But what I do know is this.” She said, “The truth, as close as I can get to it. Is that God, Him, her, Them, is absolute love.” And so that just shone force in her lovingly drawing each of us closer and closer to Godness. Another story that I remember was, a mother who was very courageous in sharing that she grew up in an Episcopal religion and really just that LGBTQ lifestyle was sinful and she didn’t ever think it would come close to her family. And so she actually had said negative things to, and that some of her kids had heard. She thought LGBTQ, that topic, would not apply to her family. And so she said one day she was sitting at the kitchen table and her oldest child came into the room and she could tell something was wrong. And he finally found the courage and told her that he was transgender, that he felt more male than female. And she said it was such a shock to her. Internally, she was freaking out. It all felt like a bad dream. And in her words, “Outwardly, I appeared calm and tried to choose my words very carefully. While trying to figure out what to say to my child, I felt God whispered to my heart ‘Love, just love.’” 

SARA: That's beautiful. That is a beautiful common trend. I mean, across differences, even different faith traditions and different experiences. I love Carol Lynn's reflection, too, about the balance. That really makes me think, yes, when we talk about even diversity in the natural world, the Earth, it's all about finding that harmony and balance so that everything can thrive. We need balance to thrive. And I love that idea with regard to people and all the ways that we come out. And I know this is something that you have talked about and thought of quite a lot. And the second story that you shared really hit home about how parents can prepare themselves or can create a welcoming, safe place for their child before they might even know that their child is queer or maybe they have a suspicion. Maybe there's been moments. I think about that second story that you shared that must be a common experience for a lot of folks, that sort of thing, “Oh, that's a thing that happens out there. But that's not my family. That won't happen to my child.” And we don't stop to think about, then, what kinds of things we're doing without thinking that may be sending some messages to our kids. So talk about how parents can think about their own home and themselves in terms of being a generally welcoming and safe space for their kids. 

LAURA: Well, as my own personal experience is, I have six kids and my fifth kid – his name is True. He's 24 now – when he was about two or three, I had two older boys, he's my youngest of the boys and I just noticed that he was different. He liked pink. And he liked beautiful sparkly things. And his best friends were girls. So I noticed that from a very young age. And I love him with all my heart. He's one of my favorite people. And I started kind of mentioning that to my husband that I thought maybe it's possible that our son is gay, kind of like let's talk about it kind of a thing. And I grew up outside of religion. I had 19 years grew up in Los Angeles County. And I’m the youngest of three kids. And my oldest brother, who was in high school in the 70s, my brother's straight, but two of his best friends were gay. And they were gay young men. And it wasn't a big deal. And so I think that that really served me well. But then I did join a religion. I joined the LDS religion when I was 19 and started learning that it really wasn't, it wasn't okay, so it was a wrestle for me. But I did feel that having that diversity growing up helped me and served me well. But I think, back to your question, I just think kind of being mindful and wanting to learn and understand and prepare. So I was talking with a friend when my son, True, was about 11. She asked me if I knew these two young boys. And I did. And she said they were both gay and they were LDS and they had come to her and said that was just one of the most torturous things to be. My son had not come out at that time. But that really planted a seed of worry in me because I thought that he might be, right? And so I wanted to do what I could to prepare. And so that's when I kind of started diving into learning about LGBTQ experience and wrestling with God about it really. At the time I remember talking, I called God Heavenly Father at that time and I did a lot of wrestling with God. And because I loved my religion but I love this boy. And it just felt like I couldn't find a win/win and I was searching so hard for one. 

SARA: It's really insightful of you. I think about that as a parent, particularly as a parent so deeply wedded to your faith, to the LDS faith. And maybe your past helped you to be able to imagine that this could be true for your son. I often wonder if some families who are in very, very conservative religious traditions that are not welcoming to queer folks, don't even allow themselves the possibility of imagining that that could be true. So step one, allow yourself to sit with that possibility and see what comes to you. It sounds like you really were able to do that well. And I'm curious, though, as you were thinking about this and reading and wrestling with God, and your child hadn't really said anything to you yet. I'm wondering about how you think about parents who might be in a space where they want to be welcoming and might overdo it a little bit. So we want to communicate that we're welcoming, and queer people are loved and are welcome in our home. But without making our child feel like, “Oh. They're just saying that because they suspect something about me.” Parents can overdo it a little bit. 

LAURA: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And we will. And I think just realizing that we will not strike that balance, probably, most times, just accepting that fact and just still showing up and trying. I didn't get it right most of the time. I think it's just all about just trying. I probably overdid it. 

SARA: So do you remember some of what you did that maybe now you could look back and think you over did it, certainly in the moment? 

LAURA: Yes. So I was just going to share that in the Mormon faith, which my husband still is and I'm not any more, we’d have a thing called Family Home Evening, every Monday night. So our family would gather, and we would have a lesson and snacks, and a game or whatever. And when it was my turn to teach the lesson, it started out as differences, let's talk about differences and how beautiful differences are and variety and all its majestic forms. And just how God created these beautiful differences and let's talk about them and isn't it wonderful? But whenever it was my turn it kind of just always was on differences or beautiful. So I think the kids were kind of like “Why does Mom keep beating this dead horse?” But I just was so, so much wanting my kids to be prepared to love their sibling who was different in that way than they are. I remember one lesson, we were up in the hills and my husband had some lessons we were teaching the kids and I had a big box of donuts and they were all different, different sprinkles and different flavors. And again, my lesson was on, Aren’t Differences Wonderful. And so I remember my son, True saying – because I tried to tell him how much I love him. It felt like my goal at the time was just to inject that kid with as much love as I could. I felt like he was going to need some extra confidence. But having said that, I think he just came with confidence, which I realize is a rare thing for a straight or queer person. But he's cute. And he’d often say, “Mom. That’s the cheesy thing you’ve ever said.” But I know he – and it probably was – I knew he loved me.

SARA: When did he finally come out to you? 

LAURA: He was 14. And he really didn't come out to my husband and I. He came out to his best friend – whose mom I was close with and she said “I just want to tell you that True came out to my daughter yesterday,” and she hugged me and said, “I just want you to know that change is nothing. We love that kid.” And he felt so accepted by his friend – But that gave him the confidence to then tell another friend and then two more friends. And so actually we found out by proxy. But, yeah, he was 14 and that was 10 years ago. 

SARA: You found out by proxy, so then did you broach the subject with him or did he finally come to you? 

LAURA: I think I had – from my memory, I was having conversations with my husband about it because I was pretty sure that True was queer. So I would talk to my husband and he wasn't so sure. I think he was just scared. I think it wasn't in his paradigm of being a possibility. So I had been gone one night on a trip. And I got back and then he said, “I think what you've been thinking is true, Laura.” I think he had a conversation with True. So I went down and talked to him and I just, you know, shared how much I love him and that this is okay. “It's going to be okay. And you're a fantastic person and it’s not even a big thing. It's going to be great.” But I do remember, before my son could drive, having this strong conviction that I needed to talk with him. He needed an adult to talk to. And so what that looked like was going on drives with him. So he was kind of a hostage. He was in the passenger seat. It always started off awkward every time I'd say,” Hey.” We called it the topic. We’d talked about the topic and he’d be like, “There's nothing to talk about.” But then, soon, the wall would come down. And I remember specifically saying, “Hey, True. I'm not gay, but I would love to learn from you. So I love to ask questions.” And he was receptive. And one of the things I asked, or I told him – he and I were both still going to church at the time – I said, “I just want you to know, my soul is hurting with some of the things I'm hearing at church regarding LGBTQ people. I just want you to know that I don't agree with them. I think it’s important that you know that I feel that way. And I worry about you being hurt.” And that felt important to tell him. And he ended up saying he did hear things that hurt, but he was able to just kind of, “Well, if they want to be dumb, let them say dumb things.” I do also remember having to drive with him and asking him, “True, if he could change this about you, would you?” And he thought for about two seconds and he said, “No, I wouldn’t.” And my heart just burst. I think I cried. I said, “That's the best gift to your mom I could ever receive; it's just knowing that you love yourself.” That's just such a beautiful thing. That's what I want for all my kids. 

SARA: So many pieces of your story are really, really beautiful. And I think even just the idea of your son coming out to a friend and friend's mom also being able to tell you “This changes nothing, we love him, we love you.” That this conversation we're having is for more than just parents. It's also about how can we create the safe and welcoming spaces for all of the young people in our lives and our friends and our families, because it matters so deeply when someone is – particularly I think for those families who are stuck in faith traditions that are aren't accepting or family dynamics that aren't as accepting – to be able to have those people in their lives who are and who can reflect back to them, “This is great. This is wonderful. We love you and your family.” 

LAURA: I can’t really say enough about just knowing that you're not alone in whatever you're going through. It's just so empowering. It was for me. It was super strengthening. And the plus side is that you get to meet a lot of really incredible people. And you know, feeling like, “Wow, we're the only family going through this,” was just really the furthest thing from the truth. And getting to meet so many awesome LGBTQ people and really some of my favorite people and just knowing that it's such a pretty common occurrence. And it's actually pretty fantastic

SARA: It is fantastic. I'm curious to hear, so you’ve left the LDS faith. 

LAURA: Yes.

SARA: And that's a common story. It's a common story for a lot of our Mama Dragons – whether it's LDS or some other conservative faith – where they really felt like there was a forced choice between the faith and the love of their child, and not receiving a lot of support. I’m curious if you’ll share more of how you came to that decision. 

LAURA: Well, I would say the night that I talked to my friend and she told me about those two gay, LDS boys that had each told her that hell on earth was being a gay Mormon, that prompted me to go home and kind of delve into what my church leaders had said about people like my son. And when I read – and I know they've come a ways since some of these earlier things – it felt so misguided. And it felt so not only wrong but very harmful. And to me it's such an important topic. It affects so many individuals, that I felt like if they got something so important so wrong I wonder – that gave me the green light to kind of study other doctrines and theologies and things and specifically remember like having kind of a debate with God, “You know, I'm trying to find this win here. And I don't want to leave my faith, but I'm not going to leave my kid.” And just finally realizing that I've also got my own soul and my own heart and my own mind. And just one day thinking, I think I'm going to trust that because I think God gave me that. I have my own soul, my own beliefs, if I really listen to those. And I was able to kind of pop that bubble that I had been in. And my conclusion was that God doesn't want me to be miserable. And God doesn't want this precious kid of mine to be unhappy. So I'm going to get outside of this bubble. And I'm going to choose to believe that God is bigger than this. And it really became a non-issue. It felt very soul-expanding to trust my own heart and soul, as scary as that was, because I had been taught for decades to trust other sources. It can be extremely scary to listen to your own mind on things. 

SARA: Sure. What about your son? What was his reaction to your departure? Did he follow you? 

LAURA: He didn't, and he kept going. And I had stopped going. And I, of course, noticed that he kept going with his dad and his younger sister. They were the last two at home. I talked to him one time about it. And he just said, in his peaceful mode, he just said, “I don't want to rock the boat. I'm just going to attend church until I leave home. I just don't want to cause a disruption.” So that was his personal choice and I respected that of course. But it felt very important that I stand with my conviction. And I've told my husband I couldn't have done it differently. I think we all have to just do what feels like our own personal integrity and that can look different from other people. 

SARA: Yeah. I'm curious how you think about being on this side now, all these years later, what family, a loving family is really intentional about this can do to counteract some of the messages that are in our culture, even perhaps families that are not directly connected to a religion that is not welcoming and affirming. It is so pervasive in our culture. We cannot get away from those messages. So how do you think about what parents and family members can do to help counteract those messages? 

LAURA: That's a really great question. I think surrounding yourself with people that might be a little further on the journey. I think for many of us, this is a winding and a gradual journey. And where I am today and my beliefs are different then I was even on this topic 20 years ago. So I think just opening yourself up in all aspects of life to people with differing opinions and thoughts. And instead of just staying with like-minded people. I think it can be helpful to talk to people who have been in a situation longer than you have and might have a different, broader perspective on it. I remember the early days. I feel like I'm now about 10 years removed from that. But it was scary. I was more fragile. I actually called Jen Blair, who was one of the earlier Mama Dragons, and she and I are from the same town. She's moved since. But I called her and I said, “Can I come over? Can I come over and talk to you?” And she said, “Of course.” I just remember sitting in her living room and just having this safe, beautiful person to talk to who also had a gay child, who could listen to me with love and compassion and no judgment. It was just such a safe, beautiful gift to feel held and not threatened. So find those people because we're out there, you know? 

SARA: Yeah. And who had a very similar background to yours, I think, also probably helped a lot, having been part of the LDS church. 

LAURA: Yes. 

SARA: But one thing strikes me in listening to you share how meaningful it was for you to be able to reach out and talk to someone, was also the courage it took to make that phone call and ask and say can I come over and talk to you, and how often we talk ourselves out of asking for help as parents thinking that we should have all the answers or should know what we're doing. 

LAURA: Absolutely and now I've been on the other side of things where someone will call me and it's really just such an honor. It's an honor to have someone open up to you. And it's an honor to give someone a safe spot. So don't be afraid to ask because you'll be asking now, but soon you'll be the one receiving the call. So we're just here on Earth to help each other and we're all at different stages and that's the beautiful part about humanity. And I think the older I get, I think, the less answers I have, which feels actually pretty liberating. I think, just like Carol Lynn Pearson said and just like that Mama Dragon said, it is about love. And I think that's probably the most important thing to take away from living. 

SARA: Exactly. Do you think there's a downside to being too focused on figuring out whether or not a child is queer before they're ready to tell us? 

LAURA: Yeah, yeah, I think there can be extremes for sure. And that's definitely a thing to flesh out and feel. And yeah, you can talk about it too much to where it feels like, probably, pretty uncomfortable. So yeah, just let your kid be. I think the beautiful thing is that our kids come as they are. And this is where my son would say, “Mom that’s the cheesiest thing you’ve ever said.” But, here I am. I just think they come as they are and just watch them. Watch them bloom. They're not going to be like you, probably. They’re going to be growing into who they are and it's actually such a beautiful gift. And sometimes it's pretty maddening and sometimes it's frustrating because they aren't like us, or whatever. But just kind of take the tips from your kids. You can see what they're into and encourage that. True wanted Polly Pockets on his fourth birthday. And that's what he got.

SARA: Yeah. I think about that question a lot and even when I think about my own story, my own child's coming out, very different from yours. I come from a very progressive faith tradition and a very progressive family. And so none of that was a barrier. But I always was aware that I was like, I don't want to project that onto my kids. I don't want to be too excited that maybe they're queer. Or, “You can tell me anything. And you can be whatever you want.” So I held back. It took a while for my kid to come out. And I do remember thinking, “Oh, maybe I should have been a little more obvious. Maybe I should have asked more direct questions.” Like second guessing myself, and I think about a lot of parents who might be listening to us thinking, “I have not done this very well.” Which I just want to say, it's how all of us at one time or another have thought that. 

LAURA: Oh my gosh. It has. Very rare to tell a very well, I’d say. 

SARA: Yeah. But it’s never too late.

LAURA: Yeah. It's never too late.

SARA: What are some things that – at any stage in this journey – but what might you say? What are some things that parents can do to just begin shifting the atmosphere in their home? 

LAURA: Oh, it's beautiful. I think this is something that is happening more and more. And I love seeing it. I think that we're now having conversations with our kids that look inclusive. They feel inclusive instead of asking your daughter, “What boys do you have a crush on?” Maybe just saying, “Hey, do you have a crush on anyone?” Leave it open- ended. Let there be the possibility for this to even be. 

SARA: Such a good point that we're so acculturated . . . 

LAURA: Yeah. 

SARA: . . . to heterosexuality and cis-genderness, that it's easy to just let those questions slip out because that's what our parents asked us. Right? 

LAURA: Yeah. Yeah. So let that be a possibility because I think when it's not even been breathed into someone's world that there is even a place for that, that can be super scary. So of course, talk about LGBTQ people that you know. I don't think that my son really had a lot of models for happy queer couples. We just didn't know very many. And so then we started attending Pride Festivals and Parades. And I became a Mama Dragon. And we went to Love Loud which was, Dan Renolds and Tyler Glen created this really beautiful place. And I brought my non-queer kids with us too. And we just all went as a family. And it was just really, really beautiful to learn of people's stories and to see, “Hey, this is absolutely a possibility and it has a happy outcome. It can definitely be a positive and successful thing.” So yeah, bringing it up in everyday life. And yeah, I think we can all go overboard in all the ways, right, where that's the only thing we talk about. Like me talking about differences are beautiful, probably got really old, you know? I think one of my daughters later said, “You kept talking about that and I kept feeling like I was not doing a very good job. That you were talking to me directly,” Which was not at all, she's one of the most loving people I know. So, yeah. 

SARA: Interesting what our kids can interpret. 

LAURA: Right.

SARA: Yeah. I mean well, so to continue this. I'm going to ask you a hard question. When you look back, were there things that you did that you think, “Oh, I shouldn’t have done that,” or any regrets you have or would have done it differently?

LAURA: I'm sure there are. Let's see. I do remember sitting in church with my son. I was attending because it was one of our family members was going on a mission. So I was sitting there. And someone had quoted a church leader that has said a lot of anti-LGBTQ things thatI had a real hard time with this leader. And I remember feeling like I wanted to counter what was being said. And so I wrote my gay son a note and passed it to him in church. And it said, “Your sisters and I were talking about you the other day and how amazing you are. And we're kind of thinking about maybe what kind of guy you would end up with. And I just want you to know that you have a wonderful future ahead.” And it felt really empowering, handing him that note in church while this church leader was being quoted. 

SARA: Yes! 

LAURA: Like, you know what? I'm having a powerful mom moment right here. This is my truth. 

SARA: Yes! 

LAURA: It does feel like you have to counter things sometimes. 

SARA: Yeah. Beautiful. And what a lovely way you’ve shared to counter them. It doesn't always have to be big and loud and public. It can be quiet. 

LAURA: Right. Yeah. And another thing that was interesting. It felt like a bunch of us got together right before the pandemic, some local parents. We got together and my husband was part of it. And we created kind of a monthly get together for LGBTQ teens to do something positive and get together to know that they weren’t alone and that we support them. And it was a great year and we had some great activities. And I noticed that my own gay son was like, “I don't really need to do that. And I don't really want to participate. Is that okay?” I'm like, “Absolutely, yeah.” But it was funny to me. But it was also really, oh, he's got his own group of friends. And it still felt good that he knew his parents were trying to do something supportive, even if he didn't want to participate. So sometimes our kids will see us doing things and won't want to do that. And I think that's okay, and that's probably part of figuring all of it out, too. 

SARA: Oh, sure, especially as we – well, you also are sharing, the deeper we get into the journey, we are creating community for ourselves as well. And that feels really important. 

LAURA: Yeah, for sure. Another thing, I've noticed my husband trying. He’s been wearing rainbow ties to church. He still attends church, but he wears his rainbow tie, almost every Sunday. And sometimes the older family generations, sometimes, have a harder time accepting younger family members that are LGBTQ. And that's kind of the case, I think, in a lot of families. I've noticed my husband trying to have conversations with his parents too. And we also invited them over and I put together a binder of church-safe articles for them to read of people that were LGBTQ. So just trying to prepare and open up with love and trying to prepare other family members feels like important work as well. 

SARA: Yeah. I like the binder. That's great. What about our own anxiety as parents? Because sometimes I think there's a lot of fear around what our child's life might be like. Not that we don't want them to be different, but we see how the world treats difference. And I think, sometimes, that that anxiety can come across like disappointment. And so what would you say to parents on how do we work with or manage or get our own anxiety under control so we're not inadvertently communicating those messages to our kids? 

LAURA: Right. Yeah, because the anxiety is there and often it stems from fear, worry, so much love. And you don't want your child to be hurt. And you know that there's still bigotry in the world. And there's still small mindedness. And a lot of people just aren't there yet. And the last thing you want is your kid to be hurt in some way, totally understandable. One thing I do remember is talking to my doctor about my gay son and just saying, “Hey, I'm going to talk to him and see if he'll come to you. Will you talk to him about safe sex?” Because it's probably not anything my kid wanted me to really sit down and go over with all the details. And I thought that might be an okay way to go about it and so that happened and it felt good to have someone really talk to him about the details of that. 

SARA: Great advice. That's really good advice. Right? Talk to your doctor. 

LAURA: Yeah. Because I'm scared and you probably might not want to hear from me. And I admire the parents that talked to their kids about that. 

SARA: But also our kids hear things differently, even if we were to say the same thing, they will hear it differently from someone else. 

LAURA: So true. So true. Yeah, often it’s just who the messenger is. My son also has a therapist that he goes to. It was a gay man, a gay neighbor of his, just the kindest person. And that's been someone just to talk to, who gets it, right? And that was just an amazing thing in his life to have someone to talk to that way. I think just kind of having the conversations every once in a while and, like you said, not that that's all you want to talk about, right. But just kind of asking how things are going that way? Do you feel safe? 

SARA: That's what I've heard from you is being brave enough to say the things that might feel a little weird or a little scary or a little awkward, right?

LAURA: Yeah, yeah, totally.

SARA: And just know that they are, they are awkward. 

LAURA: They are. And they are. 

SARA: And being brave enough to have a conversation anyway. 

LAURA: Humans are just awkward, right? But just try. Just keep trying. And hopefully it will be received in love. One of my best friends is my sister-in-law. And she has one child. And I opened up to her about all of this going on. And she was so accepting and loving of my queer kid, not even knowing that her own child was gay. And so I just think, wow, props to someone who loves even before it hits them, it’s a personal thing. So she's been a wonderful ally and support-system and invites him and the other cousins over for gatherings. And she's just a community builder. I live in a very, very conservative part of the world. I'm in South Central Idaho. But still, even here, there are so many pockets of people that are allies. I think that you really can find them everywhere. And it's easier to do now since there's some ways to find like-minded people that you can get a lot of support from. We are here. We are everywhere. It might feel like that's not true. But I think it is. 

SARA: Yes, there are more ways to find folks, which is so nice, right? 

LAURA: It's so nice. Yeah. 

SARA: Appreciate that reminder that we are here. Allies are everywhere. People who are on the same journey as us are everywhere. Even in our communities where we might not think that to be true. Even in more conservative faith communities, there are still people like you and your family that are trying to figure this out together. That's such a great reminder. 

LAURA: There really are and even religious leaders. After I stepped away from my own religion, I started attending with my older dad. And at first it was just, oh my dad would probably like me to be with him. But then the messages were just so inclusive and so love-filled that I would drive home each Sunday feeling really filled with love. And it was just amazing. And I don’t attend a church now. But I did for a time. And it felt really, really meaningful. So I know that there are church leaders, too, that are advocates and allies. 

SARA: Absolutely. And a good reminder. Thank you for reminding us of that too. What you've shared is that you don't have to walk away from faith. You can find faith in different places and in different ways that is very affirming. 

LAURA: Absolutely, yeah. There are a million ways to go about it. And it's beautiful and it's personal. And it can feel scary, and it might look different. You can still find ways to connect with God, if you believe in God, and if you don't, there's ways to feel connected to humanity and it's a really lovely way. They just look a lot different and can be really, equally beautiful. 

SARA: Yes, beautiful, beautiful reminder. Laura, when you think back on your story and experience, and those 80-plus stories that you were sharing when you were doing the blog-editing for Mama Dragons, where do you find the little rays of hope, the little silver linings? 

LAURA: You know what, honestly, being out in nature. That might sound crazy, but I love to garden and I have gotten into water plants. I have all these different flowers in my yard and they're random. It's just all these different kinds. You see all the different birds. I like to snorkel. When I'm down under the water and I just see all these fish. They're just some are really funny and they're colorful and they're beautiful and they're magical. Yeah, I'm back to my family home evening lesson, differences are beautiful. 

SARA: Great. I heard that. 

LAURA: That’s what it’s all about, man. It's just, I think that this life, if we can just open up our minds a little bit and realize we're just part of this amazing tapestry. And everyone's going to look a little different. We're going to think a little different, and isn’t that wonderful?

SARA: Perfect. 

LAURA: I guess I'm back to that. 

SARA: You have brought us full circle and I appreciate it. 

LAURA: I think just soul-expanding to realize like, hey, of course, of course we're not black and white. We're not in a little box, of course. That's just not how it is and isn’t that amazing. 

SARA: Isn’t that amazing. 

LAURA: Yeah.

SARA: Wonderful. Thank you for this conversation and such delight, and sharing with us all the ways that we can keep expanding our thoughts and our experiences and inviting others in our midst to do the same to be as affirming and welcoming as we can be. It's just been a joy to talk to you. 

LAURA: Oh, it's been a joy too, Stay curious, everybody. And there's lots of things to stay curious about and thanks for your time, I appreciate it.

SARA: Before you go, everything we talked about today and a whole lot more lives in Empowered Parent Learning, our on-demand library of courses and webinars for parents of LGBTQ kids. This is free for members and a small, one-time fee for everyone else. It includes our Suicide Prevention Training, Parachute E-learning, and so much more. The link is in our show notes. You don't have to do this alone. We're in it together. 

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