Meet Shannon: Our New Podcast Cohost

Content Warning: Discussion of suicidality

We have some exciting news to share: we’re adding another host to the In the Den team! For the past few years, Sara has had the opportunity to sit across from some really extraordinary people and have the in depth conversations that make up this podcast. And while fortunately Sara is not going anywhere, moving forward, she’ll tag team with another host, who will bring new energy and fresh ideas to our show. Without further ado, we’d like to welcome Shannon Mannon to the In the Den family!

Special Guest: Shannon Mannon

As an award-winning writer and communications leader, Shannon Mannon invigorates teams, organizations, and communities. Currently, Shannon is a Senior Consultant at WD Communications where she coaches Fortune 100 clients in interpersonal communication, EQ, presentation skills, and storytelling for social impact. She also leads 3-Minute Storyteller, a platform that creates digital stories featuring movement makers of all stripes— from astronauts to entrepreneurs to New York Times bestselling authors. She’s also a contributor at Living Room Conversations, using intentional conversation to bridge divides. Her thought leadership pieces have been published in national media outlets like The Philadelphia Inquirer, USA Today, Motherly, and Advocate.

Shannon brings her civic leadership to all facets of community and organizational life. As the operations lead at University of Pennsylvania's Institute for Urban Research, she designed high-profile events. While leading her community's health and wellness coalition, Shannon strengthened the social fabric, broke down silos between agencies, and secured grant funds to double the operating budget. As a Regional Director at Habitat for Humanity International, she steadily led a team through organizational upheaval. At Operation Smile International she led medical missions across three continents. She is a mother of three teens and is the co-host for the In the Den podcast for Mama Dragons, a nonprofit organization that supports, educates, and empowers mothers of LGBTQ+ children. She also serves on the board of directors at St. Peter’s Place which houses low-income seniors and leads the Speaker Series for PFLAG Chester County.

Links from the Show:

• Join Mama Dragons today
• Cleavage by Jennifer Finney Boylan 

Go deeper with Empowered Parent Learning - Mama Dragons’ on-demand library of video courses and webinars for parents of LGBTQ+ kids. Two tracks: Parenting Essentials and Parent Advocacy. Free for Mama Dragons members, a small one-time fee for everyone else. Includes Suicide Prevention Training and Parachute eLearning. 

In the Den is made possible by generous donors like you. Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today at www.mamadragons.org. 

Transcript

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SARA: Hi everyone. Welcome to In the Den with Mama Dragons, a podcast and community to support, educate, and empower parents on the journey of raising happy and healthy LGBTQ+ humans. I’m your host, Sara LaWall. I’m a Mama Dragon myself and an advocate for our queer community. And I’m so glad to be part of this wild and wonderful parenting journey with all of you. Thanks for joining us. We’re so glad you’re here.

Hello, Mama Dragons. I have some exciting news to share with you today. We are adding another host to the In the Den team. For the past couple years I've had the absolute joy of sitting across from some really extraordinary people and having the conversations that make up this podcast and while I am not going anywhere, we are excited to be able to bring on a new host to tag team with me with someone who will bring some new energy and fresh ideas to our show. So today I am excited to introduce you to Shannon Mannon, who is joining me as a co-host of In the Den. We're going to be tag-teaming different weeks and planning different episodes, which means it'll be a little bit less work for each of us. Shannon comes to us from Pennsylvania and brings an incredible background in storytelling, advocacy, and creating spaces for meaningful conversations. She founded Three-Minute Storyteller with her husband, where she's interviewed everyone from Glennon Doyle and Kevin Bacon to astronauts and faith leaders. She's hosted conversations for PFLAG, spoken at conferences and faith communities, and written nationally about transgender youth. And as the parent of three teenagers, one of whom is a trans son, she brings her own lived experience to this work and to our community that we have built here. So, Shannon, welcome to In the Den. I'm so excited to introduce you officially to our listeners and have you on the podcast team. I know we're all really looking forward to the new conversations you are going to bring to our community.

SHANNON: Well, thank you, Sara. That was such a lovely and beautiful welcome. And great job with my bio. You really did some work there.

SARA: Well, we have lots to talk about in your bio and lots of things I’m going to ask you about besides just being a parent. But let's just start with having you tell us just a little bit about yourself. Who are you and what brings you to this work? 

SHANNON: Absolutely. Yeah, you captured some highlights for sure. I'm a middle child, also. Let me start back in childhood. I'm a middle of three sisters. I feel like that's really important to know. I've strong identity as three girls in my family. And I'm really close with them. I live outside of Philly too. I don't think we mentioned that. I'm in that part of Pennsylvania. So I'm glad to bring some East Coast energy to the team as well.

SARA: We are so excited to have some East Coast energy, to be across the country now.

SHANNON: Absolutely. But yeah, I feel like it's funny. Thinking about how this idea of meaningful conversations and stories and listening, I have found a way to shoehorn into so many aspects of my life as I look back over time. Wow, this is a kind of a golden thread that I hadn't really picked up on. And it was funny because my friend at PFLAG, who’s our chapter president, Cindy, is a phenomenal leader. And she's actually the one that suggested that I reach out to you all when you posted the cohost position. And I’ve loved Mama Dragons and I loved your podcast. But somehow I just missed the opportunity. And she said, “You need to do this.” And I felt so seen in that moment because she intuited this thing that's been part of my life where there's just nothing that brings me greater joy than kind of sitting down with someone and listening to their story and feeling connected. I was an obsessive reader as a child. And I think I just found a lot of solace in other people's stories that didn't make me feel so weird or awkward or alone. And I think I carry that through, even today.

SARA: When you founded Three-Minute Storyteller back in 2015, what was happening in that time that made you think, “We need this kind of space for people to tell these kinds of stories?” And what a cool structure to be able to say, “Just give us a little bit, a little three-minute story,” which is really hard to do.

SHANNON: It is really hard to do. But it's interesting, you can actually tell a really good story. You can get like a beginning, middle, and end, and have kind of an arc and drama, a lot in three minutes. It was a challenge. It was a real passion project. And again, this is another situation where my husband Mike was like – podcasting for us was relatively new. I think Mark Marin, who has a podcast – he’s a comedian in California and he has a podcast called WTF. And for us, it was like this idea that this is a new medium that's so exciting. And I remember listening to it and Mike and I were like, what is this? This is so cool. It's so antiquated because it was only 10 years ago, but it's crazy how much it's blown up. But he's like, “That's what you need to be doing.” And I'm like, “Oh, okay, yeah, I would love that I think that sounds amazing.” And so it kind of got into our heads. And we both are in the communications field as people that listen to people all the time and hear people's stories all the time professionally. And we really wanted to focus in, my goal or my kind of drive was reaching across divides, trying to understand what makes other people tick. For my husband, it was something slightly different. From a male perspective, he was really feeling like, “I want to lean into sort of more vulnerable conversations and the courage it takes to do that as a man, middle-aged man, essentially.”

SARA: Yeah.

SHANNON: And so we both have different driving impetuses. But for me, it was a lot about pretty close to the first Trump presidency and the election. And I was actually not that surprised to see that outcome, but really finding myself in a place of judgments that was quite like, honestly, gross. I didn't like it in myself because in my part of Pennsylvania we are very mixed. We're a very, like, politically purple place. And I really wanted to understand where people were coming from because people I loved had different views from me. And so a lot of it was like, “How can I use conversation?” It was a question, is it possible to use conversation to talk about our lived experience to build some type of understanding that can get us through this moment?

SARA: Yeah, I'm curious. You've interviewed and had stories from some pretty well-known and really incredible guests over the years. Is there a conversation that has stayed with you?

SHANNON: Oh, there are so many, it's such a good question. One of my favorite, and it's so funny, one of my favorite people to interview was Tara Brach and her husband, Jonathan, who were down in DC. And if people aren't familiar, Tara founded the Insight Meditation Community outside of DC. And I was a huge – she was such a teacher to me. Again, one of those people I listened to online and just learned so much from. Ended up going on a silent meditation retreat to study under her which was life-changing for me. And when I reached out to ask if they would let me interview them, they kindly said yes, let me come to their home. Which I felt like, “Are you sure? Is that safe? Do you really want a stranger?” They knew I wasn’t a stranger, but still. They invited me in. And I'll never forget one of these things that Tara said in our conversation. We must have been talking about parenting. And she said, “Let the child who's there emerge.” And at that moment, my kids, no one had come out and I was fully in heteronormative space, I had no idea what my future was going to hold. And I think back to those words all the time. And how in a few words, it encapsulates basically my whole philosophy of parenting in life basically. And it was so moving.

SARA: And how prophetic that you heard those words before more emergence was coming from any of your children.

SHANNON: 100% prophetic an emergence very much. That's exactly right, Sara.

SARA: It's a great segue to my next question because I wanted to ask you about parenting. And you're the mom of three teenagers. I know you just sent one off to college, one of whom is trans and came out about five years ago. I know you and I've shared that our stories kind of line up in that way. It's really interesting. So tell us a little bit about your family. And also I really love to share with other parents, what was the parent experience like for you as the mom when your son came out?

SHANNON: Yeah. Wow. It's a big story. Our family's story is one of those where – and I didn't know this was a thing. I had no idea that my oldest son was trans – I think I had this preconception because I remember when my kids were in preschool, there'd be like a little guy who was always loving to wear princess costumes and dress up. Yeah, I know I had this very stereotypical idea. And actually, someone I had interviewed for Three-Minute Storyteller also – premonitionally, if that's the word, prophetically – they also had a story where it was an author, a mom who wrote about raising Ryland, raising her trans son and had this huge story of how they were, like from the very beginning, Ryland was so clear who he was. And so I just had this idea that that's the way it would look. I had a kiddo, my first born, fit all the preconceptions of what I would consider like a girl box. This is somebody who loved sparkles, loved glitter, loved make up, baking, crafting, reading. You throw this kid a ball and they're going to drop it and be like, “No, thank you. I’m going back inside to read.” Like the kind of kid is like, “Mom, you need to do more contouring with your cheekbones.” And at three years old, I love this memory. He would like, I said, “Let's go out on our mommy and me day!” I had just had a second child and “Let's bond. What do you want to do? Anything?” And he's like, “Can we go to the shoe store?” And I was like, “You wear Birkenstocks most days, and sneakers for dressy, like, white sneakers maybe.” And you know, we spent a day at Famous Footwear, tying on heels and sparkles and glitters. So then, there we can talk about signs and clues that I missed along the way. That's a whole other question. But ultimately, when he did come out, it was really, it was a surprise to me. And it was our kind of timing. It was during COVID, which I know a lot of people have that commonality. Our child had, in middle school, it was seventh grade when COVID hit. And just had started to show signs of anxiety. And with the lockdown, it really just snowballed, from a mental health perspective, off a cliff, really, really quickly. And that started before any obvious, to me, gender transition questions. And so once lockdown happened, we were pretty stable those first couple of months. But then once eighth grade, for him, started and the kids still didn't go back to school. Like I said, it's just really went off a cliff. And that anxiety quickly morphed into depression. And that quickly morphed into suicidality. And in the midst of all of that, this gender piece was kind of coming online in a way that I was obtusely not catching on to. And then he actually finally came out to us, my husband and I, on, believe it or not, 2021 Trans Day of Visibility, which we didn't know. None of us pieced it together until maybe a couple of days later. And in that conversation, I wish I could have done it better. I would give myself a C if I were to grade myself – which of course I wouldn't – But we had a lot of love, a lot of acceptance, but also our fear crept in. And I said some really cringy things that we could talk about later. But it was something where we accepted it and did, I think, a pretty good job of expressing a lot of love, a lot of affirmation. But also our fear absolutely snuck in. And that's where I wish we would’ve held that off a little bit.

SARA: Well, sure. I appreciate your vulnerability because I think that's a story that is shared by a lot of parents and I think by a lot of folks in our community in particular who often times I know a lot of the folks in Mama Dragons find us because they come from more conservative families, backgrounds, religions, communities, and this is new for them. And so they're looking for community and support. And I think it's always great to always hear somebody say, “I didn’t do it as well as I might have done it now.”

SHANNON: Well, I feel so sad that I hadn't done more work. If I could know now what I didn't know then, and bring that back. But of course, I think you're absolutely right. So many of the moms I talk to, so many of the parents that I'm in community with, our journey often begins in that coming out conversation. Blessed are those who have a sense of these things ahead of time and have done some thinking. And I know you all on this podcast have really tried to lift that up. But unfortunately the reality is, despite my you know progressive views and everything, when I was there in that moment, I was totally unprepared. It's very humbling, frankly.

SARA: Yeah sure. And I think it's still even as we grow and we become more well-versed in our understanding and knowledge and vocabulary, I think we still can find moments that humble us along the way.

SHANNON: As it should. As it should. Because I want to pull on a thread you talked about which is emergence. And to speak about – and I know what the kind of an ethos that Mama Dragons where we talk about the continual life-long journey of learning – which is what we should all be doing as humans. But we really, really lift that up here, because we're never done. One of the things that being a Mom of a trans son, one of the many gifts I've learned and kind of awakened to, is this idea that I'm emerging alongside of my son. And as he emerges so do I. And I think as parents there's this sense that, or a pressure that we put on ourselves, or a story we've told ourselves, or we've been raised with the idea that we are supposed to have the answers. We are supposed to keep our kids safe. We are supposed to protect them from the world. And when you're a parent of a trans kid, especially in 2026 America, that's all gone out the window. We can't, you know, we can't protect them. We can't keep them safe. We can try a lot. But the hard facts is, things are happening and that's been a place of a deep compassion, self-compassion, for me when I tried to loosen the script of “I'm supposed to have the answers.” And because my kid’s 19. I think it's different if your kid was 5, and you're doing this. But right now my kid’s 19 and he's off on his own. I can say like, “I'm doing this alongside you. And that's the way it's meant to be.” We're meant to learn in relation to it with each other. To be a parent means that that relationship with our child that's forming ourselves with this emerging quality of parenting. It's not like we come fully formed and then know what to do. Every step of the way is learning. And every step of the way our kids are teaching us as much as we're guiding them.

SARA: Absolutely. And so how did the unfolding of the coming out happen in your family? Talk a little bit about how did it go. How did the siblings respond? What was your process in terms of moving through finding medical care and support in those choices?

SHANNON: Yeah. And it's really complicated because it came out concurrently with a really significant and severe mental health crisis. Our focus was keeping this child alive. And the gender piece took a back seat. It was basically like, “Okay, whatever. Whatever you need. I will call you any name. I will call you any pronoun. You can do whatever you want. In terms of – not in terms of medical care – but in terms of like you want to shave your head, let's shave your head. You want to dress, however you want to dress? Absolutely. I just want to keep you alive.” I know I'm not alone in this story, but I know many people didn't have this experience where I really had to address the mental health piece first and the gender piece of course, is wildly intertwined with that. But it was very complicated for me to untangle where one ended and one began. I mentioned basically what happened for us was – I guess, trigger warning – my son had a very significant attempt on his life. And he's okay with me talking about this. We were prepared for it. We knew we were in the danger zone. And it was during the COVID lockdown when he was in eighth grade, or at that end of eighth grade. And I had talked to our pediatrician, “What are my plans?” I'm Googling in the middle of the night, what would happen, how do you deal with a child who's suicidal, sleeping on the floor, all the things. We went to the ER and he was fine, he was safe. No issues there. But, he wasn’t able to come into our home. They don't let your child do that when they're still in that state once this has happened, which as a mom was awful, gut-wrenching because it's like, basically it’s hard not to make that feel like “You are not able to care for your child,” which of course I already was feeling. We had to figure out very quickly, I guess at first also my child came out as nonbinary, which I know is also a common thing, before he really worked into the identity of trans masculine, really feeling like his home. And that hasn’t changed once he got there. We ended up finding a wilderness therapy up in Maine. And it was a very difficult situation. We had to make a lot of decisions very quickly. And one of my spiritual gifts is that I'm like an extreme over-parenter. So, having to turn my vulnerable child over to strangers in a place that I never even heard of in a matter of days was quite a lot. So, in a sense, I guess it bought us some time to really work through the gender transition. I admit that I thought perhaps once his mental health stabilized, if and when it did, the gender piece might also be changing. That didn't turn out to be the case. But in the back of my head, I would be lying if I didn't think that. So in terms of, you asked about siblings, so it was tricky because he came out and it was just a couple months later wasn't here anymore. So it bought the other two kids some time because he ended up not coming home for like six months. And also it bought us some time and all the rest of it too, medication and all of that. He had to kind of really stabilize before we could entertain those ideas. But we did as much as we could to socially transition pretty quickly.

SARA: Yeah. Thanks for sharing all of that. I know, unfortunately, we know that that is not an uncommon experience for kids who are coming out as trans and regardless of their home life, right? I mean it's just such a difficult struggle and our culture doesn't make it easy for kids. I'm curious, you just sort of briefly touched on this, but I'm curious what your childhood background was like and were you raised in any particular religious tradition? What messages were you given as a child? And you touched sort of being like living in the binary stereotypes.

SHANNON: Yeah, for sure. You know, it's so interesting, Sara. I was raised Irish Catholic in a family that was, I guess moderately conservative in today’s standards. I went to Catholic school for probably seven years of my childhood. And we were pretty homogenous. Most people I knew were just like our family: white, middle class, Republican, Irish Catholic. Sometimes we get the occasional Italian Catholic. But that’s where diversity really was brought in. That was really most of my childhood. It wasn't until I had a desire at 18 to leave the state. The voice in my head was like, “I want diversity.” And I didn't even know where that voice came from because I don't even think I knew what that word meant. It's certainly not a word that was talked about in the 90s, at least in my family, in my world. I thought I was going very far to school like four or five hours away in another state, in Virginia. And there I had a liberal arts education that really opened my eyes in a way that I'm really, really, really grateful for. And it really changed my views not just politically, but just I understood in a new way a sense of interconnectedness in the human story. So I had that going on and I was very young still. And then I ended up doing a lot of work internationally, globally. And I'm just kind of talking through my progression in terms of what I was raised with and how my views changed. So working abroad, I spent probably a year in Thailand. And during that time I did a lot of work studying Buddhism. And going to all these different countries where I learned all these different spiritual practices. And during that time, my whole worldview was cracking open, cracking open, cracking open, culturally, spiritually, politically in all the ways. And I really felt like I shed so much of my upbringing by doing that. And it's been really humbling and interesting to see as this journey has continued how deeply the formation that I had as a child lives inside of me. My Catholic upbringing was, yes, I had a lot of the sinful body. Sex was only for procreation, whole life. There was just no other question. And women's roles were what they were. Men's roles were what they were. Women were obviously not allowed to be ordained and all this. But now I’m, whatever. I’m all this. I'm all that. And yet, I've really had to unpack and I think it's going to be a lifetime journey. Some of that stuff that lives inside of me, so I would have said absolutely I'm 100% I will argue for trans rights, LGBTQ rights, all of the rest of it. But it didn't help me be prepared, I guess, for that in my own life. There was still a lot of learning and a lot of unlearning. And there still is. I think it'll be with me for a really long time.

SARA: Do you have a sense of what are one or two of the biggest lessons that you had to learn, maybe early on and quickly after your son's coming out?

SHANNON: In terms of like?

SARA: As a parent or just in terms of understanding trans identity.

SHANNON: Oh my gosh, I had to learn so much. The thing that's jumping out right now, and this is not specific to a trans identity, I think what kept me accountable through this journey, where so much was unraveling in my life – not just understanding my child as a son and not a daughter and all of the rest of that – I was really grappling with life and death. Will I be able to keep this child alive? And if I can't, how will I go on? And that sent me to a really dark place where I had to really develop a lot of new lessons. But the thing that I think is most important that I learned then that stays with me now, is this idea that my North Star is like a question of like, “What is love asking of me?” And that is where I landed. And that's been the thing I've held on to really tightly through the storms. I felt like if I could stay accountable to that, it would inoculate me from the awfulness of making mistakes, which I was surely doing. Messing things up, which I was surely doing. I could forgive myself. And we had to make some really hard decisions in terms of my son’s care, in terms of the mental health struggle – I mentioned being outside of the home – agonizing decisions. And I just kept thinking, “Put myself aside. Put my needs aside. What is love asking of me?” I don't know if that's the kind of answer you're looking for but that is I think the biggest learning that I took away.

SARA: That's a beautiful guiding question. Really, really valuable. It really resonates with me in terms of how I talk about the work and not just parenting, but also just community advocacy. That's a really great guiding question in terms of asking ourselves, how do we be good allies? How do we show up? How do we advocate for the community and not just for our own children for each other's children?

SHANNON: Absolutely, and what stinks is the answer to that question is usually not the easy thing. It's usually a really hard thing. As you know better than anybody. So I mean, really it doesn't point us in any easy direction, unfortunately. But I think another thing that I sort of touched on and hinted around but I want to underline another learning for me is facing my own hypocrisy was really another thing. I’m kind of talking around it. I’m telling you, I thought of myself as XYZ, and in reality, I saw that I was coming up short. And I tried not to do that with a bludgeon. I tried to do that with a heavy hand. I tried to be kind with myself. But certainly, my convictions were tested in a way that they hadn't been before, which is a good thing because that's growth. I wouldn't maybe want it, but now I do because now I can stand up and say, I know who I am, I know what I'm willing to fight for, I know the cost. I don't always know, but I know a little bit more than I did.

SARA: Sure. And I appreciate you sharing that because we confront that a lot, I think, in ourselves, yes, but also just in the culture, in our own families, in our own communities where there's often that double standard of like, “Oh yeah, I don't care what pronouns you use or I don't care what you do in your own space, but not in my space, not in my kid.”

SHANNON: Yeah.

SARA: And that is hard.

SHANNON: Really hard. Really hard. And it's still inside of me too.

SARA: Sure.

SHANNON: And I think that's what made it, not easy, but it helps me to have, I think, a little bit more compassion for people who say stuff like that, that you’re describing. Along those lines, I mentioned being comically obtuse to some of the signs in that period, inside of my own house. Like literally we're in lockdown, and I remember like, for example, at one point, I went into my kiddo's room. And he was like, holding up something and raised his arms and he had armpit hair in a way that was pretty grown in. And I was like, “Woah.” I never saw that before and I was like, “What's going on? Dah, Dah, Dah, Dah, Dah.” in my head and I'm like, “Well, he must be trying to make a feminist statement.” And I'm like, “Let's talk about it from that perspective.” And I'm like, the jumps in retrospect, I had to make it felt to keep my story because I could not – there was no mental map for me to see my kid as trans. I just did not have that mental map as an option because I just firmly had this girl lens. And I see now, and I'm bringing that up because I see now, certain people who see what's happening in America politically. And I would think it would be against their values. And yet they're continuing to support what's happening. And I think, okay, maybe they don't have a mental map that allows them to release themselves from that story, because same. Same for me. I did that too.

SARA: That is really helpful and very generous of you but a helpful framework to really think about. And you're talking and I was just thinking about my own child's story as she's coming out and also not in that very direct way. So it just took a lot of like careful questions and conversation. But I do remember at one point buying her all these different electric razors, and then stopped and then was like, “But you don't have to shave. There's lots of women out there and they choose not to.” And just realizing like, “Oh my god. I'm reinforcing the binary in the arm pit hair. I don’t care if you shave.”

SHANNON: You knew too much. Sara, you knew too much. You were like woo-hoo.

SARA: Do you want to? I mean okay. Just laughing at myself about all that.

SHANNON: So funny, right? There's so many minefields. 

SARA: So many. It can be a tricky dance. I laugh at myself too. But it can be a tricky dance to show up, to meet your child where they are. But if you have a more quiet, introverted child, who maybe isn't the greatest self-advocate, it's a tricky line to navigate. Like, how do I help you articulate what you need and want? And sometimes I may be offering it in such a way that is indelicate.

SHANNON: Yeah.

SARA: Or is allowing these binary stereotypes to continue. But it's all in service of, “What do you need to feel you get to be fully yourself?” whatever that looks like.

SHANNON: Yeah, and what I hear you saying there is, I'm guessing youf kiddo and you are wired differently. You don't strike me as someone who's shy about advocating for your needs and communicating pretty directly. And that would have happened whether you're the mom of a trans kid or not, right? You would have had to like, code switch and try to put yourself in. And this is what I think is like so phenomenal about parents of trans kids. I think that because all parenting is hard for everybody and certainly like and not exclusively for parents of trans kids. There's so many other kinds of kids that have different situations, a million. But it's like these layers of, yeah, I have to try to communicate to my kid in a way that meets their needs and not my needs, which is a lifetime journey. And it's also but now I'm learning this really complicated piece about gender binary, and unpacking my own stuff on top of it, and trying to meet you where you are. And to do that well, take such fortitude, such self-awareness. I don't even know, I don't even know. I don't even know a lot though. And these are pretty magical situations.

SARA: They are. And I will say, I'm really grateful for the learning, like you said. You lifted up. Like, I get to learn a lot. And when I look back at my own growth, even as a very progressive human, who was born into a very progressive family, I'm still like, wow, so much has changed in my own, my own worldview and understanding.

SHANNON: Yes.

SARA: And gratefully because I have gotten to be in some beautiful relationships with queer folks and trans folks and kids and parents.

SHANNON: 100%.

SARA: I am curious because we talk about this a lot – I'm sure you've heard on the podcast, for families with queer kids of any identity – How did the grandparents respond?

SHANNON: Yeah, yeah. It was really cute because my son really said, when we had the coming out conversation of "Who do you want us to tell? Who do you want to tell? You let us know the timing.” At first the grandparents weren’t included in that list. But as he started to socially transition, it was getting pretty obvious. So my parents, who live locally, were definitely – my mom was catching wind and asking me questions. And I just kind of had to play dumb. And then she was like, “Well, this is my guess. Can you say, yes or no?” But basically, at one point, my son very sweetly and very kindly was like, “I really want them to hear it directly from me. You can tell a lot of people, but I want to tell my grandparents myself.” And so one day, we invited my mom over and you could tell my son was really nervous. They were cooking in the kitchen. And it went on and on and on. And I think my mom had a pretty good sense that it was coming. And then finally, he said it. And it was like really lovely and it was very affirming. And, you know, my parents have really come so far. They have just really embraced, they've really done everything right. They do it on their own time. They tried not to come to me, especially in the middle of our crisis, for a lot of hand-holding. They did a lot of learning on their own. They've really come so far in their views in so many areas, politically and otherwise. They go to Pride Marches. They're out there in all of the rainbow colors, like really doing the thing. And my mom, while I'm no longer a practicing Catholic at all, my mom, that's still a very important part of her identity. And she's doing what she can to make change. Invited me to speak at her church. And really, she's doing everything she can too. So I give them a lot of kudos.

SARA: That’s amazing. That's really great. You said some really helpful things there that I hope folks will share with their family members about the beauty of them doing their own learning, and not relying on you to pull them along or hold their hand because you're grappling with your own stuff. And that can be really challenging.

SHANNON: Yeah.

SARA: And I think the same is true for us as parents, right? It can be really challenging to give space for our kids to move through their own experience without us needing them to bring us along or to rely too heavily on them for emotional support.

SHANNON: Yeah. And so much of the anxiety of our fears that come, for those of us that have fear and anxiety when our kids come out, if nothing else about the state of the world and the way they'll be treated. It can be so tempting to try to turn our kids to kind of help us through that and reassure us or I don't even know, like some certainty that our children cannot provide us because it's an uncertain situation. And so I always am trying to check myself. Is this question in their best interest? Or is this just to kind of comfort myself? What's my motive here?

SARA: Yeah, yeah. How do you respond or how do you talk with your son about calling people in – that's the phrase that I like to use rather than calling out – but when someone has been insensitive, indelicate or outright hurtful whether in your family, in your world, I'm not talking about those out there who are advocating and creating policies that are hurtful. We often run up against that every day in our daily lives. And our kids are up against it in our daily lives. How do you and your family manage that? What are some tips? Or what have you learned about how to stand up to that, how to address that in the moment when it can be really uncomfortable? Misgendering, you know the little things, misgendering and pronouns. Or for somebody says something indelicate or insensitive about a trans person, not your child, but in the presence of your child.

SHANNON: Absolutely, and calling out instead of calling in, 100%. I mean, it's been such a journey. We were lucky in the sense that our inner circle really supported us. I am at one of the rare situations, maybe, where I don't think I've lost a lot of relationships because of a gender transition. Even the people who I thought would be tepid and indifferent at best, surprised me with their showing up. But not to say that still – it's impossible for it not to happen. And we've done all the things. We’ve handled it well. We handled it poorly. We've handled it, and each one is a learning experience. Sometimes I say not enough and then I have to live with the boundary I didn't uphold on my end. And then I've sometimes said too much, and I feel like I've gone too far on the other end. Although that's rarer just for my conflict style, I have to admit. I remember early on in the coming out process, my son and I were at the wisdom tooth doctor. And he's lying on the chair and the doctor, white coat with the lights over, kept misgendering, misgendering, misgendering. And he said it three times. My son corrected this doctor, from a very like, literally, power position: “I'm laying. I'm younger. You're a doctor. You're in a white coat and you're over me.” And he did it. I sat there and I was like, oh, and I feel like my courage grew like three sizes that day. And my son is traditionally, not, it's pretty, follows my conflict adversity, avoidance nature. And so I was like, okay, this is game on. So, I'm trying to think of other examples of when. Very recently somebody was talking to me and I'm always really curious about people's spiritual and religious background. And when someone starts talking about it, I will often ask questions. And I've gotten into the situation a couple of times where folks think a doorway has been opened that I'm interested in being evangelized to or invited to. It's seen as more like that instead of just genuine curiosity. And in this one situation recently, this person was really hammering how I should go to their – what I know in our community to be a not friendly church to LGBTQ people – and I was trying to give the non-verbals. Like, “No, I'm not interested. No, I’m not interested.” And looking away. And I couldn't get away. And so finally I was like, “Listen, I've got an LGBTQ child. That church is notoriously unfriendly. And I will never be stepping foot in there. I have to protect my child.” And the person was like, “Oh, Okay. Well, you got to do what you got to do.” And I was like, “Good answer.”

SARA: Yeah and clear. It's so hard, too, because I think as a parent, I am a very outspoken person. But as a parent, I feel very protective and very private. So even for me, saying something like that to someone that I know would be really hard to do because I want to protect my own child's privacy as well and protect her. And so I appreciate though how powerful it can be to be really clear with people in that way. Like, “No. and here’s why.”

SHANNON: Well, in this situation, I knew that person didn't know me well enough to know who I was talking about. Doesn't know my kid. Doesn't know my family. I mean, he knows one of my kids, but not the others. And didn't have enough context to ever define it's way. So, I was a little more empowered because I'm with you. That is a very tricky, the privacy thing is very real, especially today. Especially people that live in more restrictive states and have to be very careful.

SARA: Yeah. We talk a lot on the podcast and in the Mama Dragons community about the power of community and how meaningful and important it is for us to find those connections among other parents and among other moms that share similar stories. And so as you're moving into this role here on the podcast team, and I know you've been part of Mama Dragons and part of advocacy circles and PFLAG in your own community. What have other parents of queer kids given you that you want to now give back?

SHANNON: That's such a beautiful question. One of the things is, there's a loneliness that can come from being a parent of a trans kid. Any child that is outside of the mainstream, is in a marginalized situation that no matter how much my wonderful, wonderful ride-or-die friends want to understand, cannot. And as much as I try to bring them along, there's a cost to that, there's an energetic cost, just an effort. And I want to because I want them to know me inside and out. And they want to know me inside and out. And they want to know everything. And they wish they could but they can't. Because it's not their lived experience. So the first thing that I get from other parents of queer kiddos is just that implicit understanding. It's like a shorthand that we have with each other where I feel completely like I don’t – there's very little I can say that would surprise them. And that's a really, really comforting feeling. They also, and I mean, I'm generalizing. One of the things I really notice in community is there's not like a, keeping up with the Jones’s because like literally we can't. Literally we do not fit into the normal whatever of society. And it's really liberating and freeing. One of the things I'd love too, is we get to ask questions about how to vision a new world in a way that's very real because we have to. So, it brings a visionary energy that comes in that excites me because that's the way I love to operate in that mode. And these are other people who maybe have been forced to operate into a visionary mode because we need a new vision. And they're funny and fierce. Like, that's no BS, you know, no BS. And also hilarious and joyful because you can't make this stuff up. And it's so ridiculous, the things we've had to do, the things we've had to say. We could never have imagined. And the situations we found ourselves in is like, what are you going to do? You have to laugh. So it's like a lot of joy, a lot of humor, a lot of like not taking ourselves too seriously, while taking our advocacy very seriously. So I hope to bring, for the second part, is I hope to extend – is I know how lost and confused I felt. And I feel like listening to a podcast is such a low bar of entry. It requires very little of you but a walk outside for a half an hour with some headphones. And that makes me really happy because these are moms who might be in a situation where they have no energy to figure out anything else but getting one foot in front of the other. It makes me really happy to just put my hands out and with you and with our team to say like, “Here we are. We got you. You don't have to do any work. You can just be here as you are. And we'll meet you as you are in whatever form that is.” I think there's so much power in that kind of welcome, come as you are, none of us are doing this right. And you and I are not experts. You and I are not in these positions because we are somehow like whatever. We are just figuring it out right alongside of you. And this is our way of, at least for me and I think maybe for you too, like our way of contributing. This is a part of my advocacy because it's where my interest, in part, lies.

SARA: Yeah, that is beautiful. Thank you. And I love that. I love that vision of what we and on the podcast might get to contribute to the experience of parents. As you were talking, I was thinking to myself that in my own parent’s group, it took us a while before we really got that level of comfort and vulnerability with each other. But it is a place now where, I mean, I think most people look at me and I do a lot of public advocacy. And so they think I got it together. And I know what I’m doing. And I’ve got this parenting thing down. And so to be in a community where other parents are like, I have no idea how to deal with this and I’m like, “Oh my God, I don't either,” to really lay bare the deep worries and vulnerabilities of what it means to be a parent especially in these times, right, when there’s so much attack that is coming from the outside and from our government on our kids. I think that has been such a beautiful gift. It has taken me a while. And it has taken all of us a while but for a place where we can just, we can be real and we don't have to – I love your idea. We're not keeping up with the Joneses and have to put on airs. We don't have to pretend like we know what we're doing.

SHANNON: And there's an intimacy I think, too, to this medium that I really love. I don't know about you, but I'm a huge podcast lover. And the people who I am – shout out to Krista Tippett, my homie – the relationships I feel to Krista, I am just like right these podcasts, like Amy Poehler or whatever. I feel such a deep relationship, and they've shaped my thinking and my heart and my understanding so much. And I'm, not that I ever think that can be, but just it's like, I know the power of hearing someone's voice and that connection you have with somebody. And I love that idea that we can create a community for parents like us where they can feel that intimate connection and a true relationship because we're not seeking fame here or fortune.

SARA: No. I love that though. So I want to ask you, so you came to the team with a lot of really great ideas which is so nice because we should sort of peter out after a while. So I want to ask you two questions. One is what's one idea you're really excited to bring to the podcast? And then when you answer that I'll follow up with my next question.

SHANNON: Oh, thank you for triaging it for me. One idea I'm excited to bring, you know, one of the things that I got excited about. I'm like a community builder in my heart. And when I kind of started thinking about the chapter model that Mama Dragons has across the country, one of the things I talked about and of course, you're actually doing this conversation in our master plan. And one of the things I had talked to our team about was, what can we do to uplift the stories that are happening on the ground in their chapters across regions? And I really want it to be a mutuality. I really want to learn from what they're doing and hear their voices and bring them in about what's happening. There's something to me so thrilling about this being a mouthpiece for a much wider movement that's really connected on the ground to real people that are actually gathering and that are actually building relationships and supporting each other in real life. And then how this can be a way to like, foster that and deepen that and expand that, I think it's absolutely thrilling because I think that's where real support happens. We need each other in real life too.

SARA: Yeah, that's great. I'm excited to learn more about that too and hope we can have multiple conversations about that to hear what's happening in the Mama Dragons world. So, Mama Dragons, to you all, I will say that, get on your chapter lists, or get on the Mighty platform and tell us all the cool stuff that you're doing so that we can think about how we can look that up on the podcast, that's really great. Okay, so my next question is, because you've interviewed some pretty famous people, we do have a list, a running list, on the podcast team about the big reach guests. Probably they would require a lot of money. But we can put them on our big reach anyway and maybe we'll be able to manifest them somehow. So who's one big reach celebrity guest you would love to bring on our podcast?

SHANNON: Yeah. Oh. Who is on my list? I mean, Alok is one of my favorites. I have to say.

SARA: Top of the list, already on the list.

SHANNON: Top of the list for me too. I know me too. We went to see them when they came to Philly last year, or the year before, tour. And I'm obsessed. Everything that they say, I'm just like, “Put it in my vein. I love this.” And talk about a vision, the way they are able to articulate a vision for a new world is so monumental. Brings me to tears. Does it bring you to tears too?

SARA: Oh my god, yeah, every time I even see a little reel on socials. I'm crying.

SHANNON: Right? Like, I want to say it just like that, exactly right.

SARA: Yeah. Well, that's great. You're well aligned with the team, because I'm pretty all of us have put Alok on the top of our list. So, Alok, if you're listening to the Mama Dragons In the Den podcast, come on over. We’d love to have you.

SHANNON: Also another one that I just personally love is Jen Finney Boylan. I think I butchered the middle name. She's a trans woman author, President PEN America, just put out a new book called Cleavage, the one before that. I'm suddenly blanking on all of her books. But she grew up in my area. And this was a New York Times Best Seller, had a very late in life coming out. Was married to a woman. And has two kids, one of which actually just came out as trans too. But yeah, it was really kind of something. So I love her writing and I'm a huge fan.

SARA: Yeah, we’ll have to link to that book in the podcast for sure. Jennifer Finney Boylan.

SHANNON: Sorry. Yeah, I can't imagine. I know I’m going to get off this and be like, “Oh, why didn’t I say all these other people that I’m obsessed with?”

SARA: There are so many. I could go on and on. But I have one final question. This hour has gone by really fast.

SHANNON: Oh my gosh. Woah.

SARA: Yeah. So I’m just really excited to have you join us and have folks get to hear you and your interviews on a regular basis. So, to wrap it up, my final question is, if someone is listening right now and they’re new to Mama Dragons, new to In the Den, what do you hope they’ll find when they put those earbuds in and take their walk with us?

SHANNON: Oh, that’s so nice. I hope they feel, and I hope they find hope. I hope they find hope. The practice that I'm doing in my life always is the idea of staying with my sorrow, breathing through it. I'm like a world-class repressor and champion, really I'm quite skilled. I'm not trying to brag. And if I can sit with my sorrow – and this world is bringing us so much sorrow and this journey in this moment is bringing sadly a lot of hardship to our community – I hope listening to us makes them feel like there's something larger underneath them. And whatever it is they’re going through, they will not be undone by it and they can be held even through this.

SARA: Yeah. Yeah. That's a beautiful answer. Thank you.

SHANNON: You’re welcome.

SARA: Welcome to the team, Shannon.

SHANNON: Thanks, Sara. This is so fun. I could talk to you for another two hours.

SARA: Really.

SHANNON: It’s great to be getting the Sara Treatment. I’ve loved your interviewing. I’ve loved your conversations. I think you're so skilled.

SARA: Thank you.

SHANNON: And such a phenomenal person. And it's kind of like, yeah, getting to be your partner in this is like, “Oh, wow.”

SARA: I'm really looking forward to some fresh ideas and fresh energy and new podcasts that I can take a walk with. So thank you. Thank you.

SHANNON: Yeah, thanks.

SARA: Thank you for that. For our listeners, we’ll put some of those links in the show notes and you'll get to hear Shannon very soon in the coming weeks. Thanks so much for joining us. Thanks, Shannon.

SHANNON: I can't wait to get to know everybody. Send us a note, communicate. We're out here talking. Please come tell us what's on your mind, what’s on your heart and engage with us. Because I know that really helps it feel like a two-way conversation.

SARA:Yes.

SHANNON: That's my plug. Thank you, Sara. You’re the best.

SARA: Before you go, everything we talked about today and a whole lot more lives in Empowered Parent Learning, our on demand library of courses and webinars for parents of LGBTQ+ kids. This is free for members and a small, one-time fee for everyone else. It includes our Suicide Prevention Training, Parachute E-learning, and so much more. The link is in our show notes. You don't have to do this alone. We're in it together.

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